Atlanta Hawks: Video: Life without Zaza
I talked Hawks with CineSport’s Tara Petrolino after Atlanta’s 109-87 victory over the Raptors.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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175 comments Add your comment
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
2:48 pm
My preferred path moving forward with this team.
This off season trade JJ for any draft pick you can in the 1st round. This is supposedly the biggest infusion of talent into the NBA in 10 years or whatever, because so many kids stayed in last season because of the lockout.
If you can’t get a 1st rounder for JJ because of the cap, trade him for shorter contracts. Get Rodney Stuckey and Ben Gordon for all I care. At least the cap hit is for the next 2 years and not the next 4.
But preferably a 1st pick. The best you can.
Then build around Josh, Al, ZaZa, Ivan, and Teague. Try Josh at the SF until the trade deadline. If he can’t play SF, trade Al. Again, get the best young player(s) draft pick(s) you can for him, and re-sign Josh long term. Give him max money if needed, or close to it, he’ll only be 28 when the contract starts, and the ‘tract will only be for 5 years not 6 because of the new CBA.
Then build around Josh, and maybe Teague, unless you get a stud PG in 1 of these trades or drafts.
But if Josh works at SF, build around he and Al, with ZaZa, Ivan and Teague as secondary pieces.
And if Josh still wants to be traded, after you’ve shown he’s the man, trade him for the best young pieces possible or draft picks, and build around Al, Ivan, ZaZa, and Teague, and all the young pieces you’ve acquired trading Josh and Joe.
I like JJ alot. But I’ve come to the conclusion that he is the biggest hinderance to the long term success of this team because of his contract and his declining skills because of age.
Done right, we don’t have to rebuild going forward. We can reload. But this off season is the time to trade JJ. Still only 31 for next season, and his salary under 20 mill. After that, he’ll be almost impossible to unload, unless you get garbage back for him..
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
2:50 pm
“please don’t count Teague rookie year. He needed to sit the bench that year to learn. ”
No he didn’t. Look at his game log. He played 3 solid games in December of his rookie year and then was never heard from again. He got to start in the final game of the season — albeit against a team resting its starters — and put up an All Star worthy line. Should he have been starting from day one? Maybe, maybe not, but he was EASILY good enough to play 20 minutes a game. Woody didn’t play him because Woody is too incompetent to develop players and incorporate them into a scheme.
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
2:56 pm
“We beat a totally different Orlando team that had swept us the previous year”
The impact of that trade is overrated at least as it relates to the Hawks. The Hawks lost in 2010 because they kept doubling Dwight, leaving 3 point shooters wide open, and never adjusted. They won in 2011 because they single-covered Dwight and didn’t let any of Orlando’s shooters get going.
Orlando’s scheme didn’t change from 2010 to 2011. They just had a different group of shooters stationed around Dwight waiting to get open looks and knock them down. The difference is that the Hawks had a scheme that shut them down and didn’t let them get going.
And for all the talk of Pietrus being some big Joe-stopper who killed the Hawks’ offense, it’s not like Joe had a particularly efficient series against Orlando last year with no Pietrus. He shot over 40% in exactly one game out of six in the series.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
3:07 pm
Hawks fans will believe this, but this is our best run since 93-99. We went to the playoffs 7 straight years, had 4 EC Semi appearance’s, and had the best record in the East in 93-94, and the 2nd best in the NBA that season behind Houston I believe.
The Atlanta Hawks have never won a playoff series in 4 consecutive years. It would be nice to put an end to that streak.
And yes Dawgnole, it would be nice to win a Championship! Go Hawks!!
briggy
April 17th, 2012
3:08 pm
i think woody prefers veterens over youth but i think ld is the same way. teague played out of circumstance more than anything else. i look at woody as more of a disciplinarion and ld more as a person who probably better relates to personalities like someone running a daycare.
drmaryb,
i agree with u with stern but players wanted to play that is why they signed the cba agreement.
northcyde
April 17th, 2012
3:09 pm
Player Efficiency normally correlates with the amount of minutes you play on the court, which gives you a chance to put up more stats.
When you compare efficiency rates within each position, and compare them to the amount of minutes they’re playing, it gives you an indication on who is possibly playing better than the average person receiving those particular minutes.
It can also do the opposite. It can give you an indication on who is playing below what they should be playing at that position, for the minutes they’re receiving.
The following comparisons for Hawks players do NOT indicate who is better than the other on the team. But it does compare them to those at their respective positions across the league. If you really watch the entire league, the following shouldn’t surprise anybody.
From hoopsstats.com
Teague: 21st in efficiency at PG . . . 15th in minutes . . . ( -6 )
Hinrich: 45th in efficiency at PG . . . 48th in minutes . . . ( +3 )
Johnson: 4th in efficiency at SG . . . 2nd in minutes . . . ( -2 )
Smith: 6th in efficiency at PF . . . 6th in minutes . . . ( even )
Zaza: 23rd in efficiency at C . . . 17th in minutes . . . ( -6 )
BENCH
Marvin: 17th in efficiency at SF . . . 29th in minutes . . . ( +12 )
Ivan: 53rd in efficiency at PF . . . 64th in minutes . . . ( +11 )
T-Mac: 50th in efficiency at SF . . . 59th in minutes . . . ( +9 )
Pargo: 59th in efficiency at PG . . . 73rd in minutes . . . ( +14 )
Green: 58th in efficiency at SG . . . 64th in minutes . . . ( +6 )
Vlad: 63rd in efficiency at PF . . . 64th in minutes . . . ( +1 )
Dampier: 92nd in efficiency at C . . . 90th in minutes . . . ( -2 )
Collins: 97th in efficiency at C . . . 80th in minutes . . . ( – 17 )
briggy
April 17th, 2012
3:10 pm
najeh, i agree this team at best with a better coach is an ecf team possibly finals team
briggy
April 17th, 2012
3:12 pm
also agree with northclyde the sooner most realize marvin is a role player who was drafted too high people will be ok with his outputs as far as points rebounds,etc
Rod from College Park
April 17th, 2012
3:13 pm
“We beat the Magic because of a man named Crawford hitting big shots who by the way flourished under Woody i.e. (6th man of the year).”
Cosign
“And for all the talk of Pietrus being some big Joe-stopper who killed the Hawks’ offense, it’s not like Joe had a particularly efficient series against Orlando last year with no Pietrus. He shot over 40% in exactly one game out of six in the series.”
More reason to believe that Crawford was the reason we won the series, along with not switching.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
This is the 1st year Josh has shown the consistency to be the guy to actually build around. I hope the Hawks brass will do it.
But if Josh insists on leaving this dysfunctional, lawsuit bound, cash strapped, lying ownership group behind, and I couldn’t blame him if he did, it’s off to plan B.
High-sider
April 17th, 2012
3:20 pm
And y’all thought Joe Johnson and [the] other Hawks’ players had problems and issues with “trickin.”
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-secret-bragged-protecting-obama-while-partying-colombian-110143053–abc-news-politics.html
High-sider
April 17th, 2012
3:22 pm
^should be “trickin’.”
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
3:23 pm
I predicted 48 – 38 before the season began. Gonna be close. I tell you, the last few games will probably be decided by who has a playoff spot/homecourt clinched, and who doesn’t. Boston, Clips, Mavs, Knicks, all could be playing for their lives, or coasting depending on the aforementioned circumstances.
The Knicks probably play all out for sure. And if Boston wants Homecourt for at least 1 series, they probably do also. The Mavs, who knows. The Clips may be already clinched HC for the 1st round and resting their guys.
Gonna be interesting.
briggy
April 17th, 2012
3:26 pm
steve w i was thinking this hawks should really look to just build around one star player with some good pieces around that player. joe johnson is past his prime and i like your ideas in a previous post but i am not sure u can build around smith. look at that celtics game in boston celtics are fine with joshshooting jumpers. he is better at it but still not consistent enough and he doesnt have a good dribble and not a great post player
Rod from College Park
April 17th, 2012
3:34 pm
also agree with northclyde the sooner most realize marvin is a role player who was drafted too high people will be ok with his outputs as far as points rebounds,etc
Role players don’t make 8 mil per year, they make the vet minimum, or a couple of million per year. Role players also don’t get drafted #2 in the draft, and get resigned for a 5 year deal with a player option for the sixth year. Marvin should not be a role player, and should never be considered one while he is a member of the Hawks.
Marvin Williams Stats against Eastern conference playoff teams 2012:
7.3ppg, 35.5%FG, 23%3point
Actually he is still not even a good role player if he can’t step up against good teams.
jay
April 17th, 2012
3:37 pm
Marvin being a role player is A OK with me, but he isn’t paid like a role player which is NOT ok. At the moment he is being outplayed by a late 20’s rookie.
As for Woody being such a good coach, it’s very interesting to me that he’s sat for the last two years with barely a mention of interest with all the coaching changes that have happened. The only job he could snag was taking over as an interim coach. He had ZERO propencity to ADJUST his philosiphy. He took the team from pups to men, but they hit a ceiling with him.
northcyde
April 17th, 2012
3:38 pm
And in case some of you think those efficiency vs minutes comparisons were bogus, here are some more
Kenneth Faried: 23rd in efficiency at PF . . . 42nd in minutes ( +19 )
Steve Nash: 5th in efficiency at PG . . . 19th in minutes ( +14 )
Antwan Jamison: 22nd in efficiency at PF . . . 9th in minutes . . . ( -14 )
Hedo Turkoglu: 24th in efficiency at SF . . . 13th in minutes . . . ( -11 )
Astro Joe
April 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
Orlando was the #2 seed that year and since have been #4 and likely #6. Yeah, I think they have been going in the wrong direction (for whatever reason) since that frightful playoff series.
northcyde
April 17th, 2012
3:46 pm
Pietrus and Barnes wasn’t the difference in the 2010 series when it came to JJ?
JJ didn’t shoot over 37% in ANY game that series. He was pretty much shut down, along with him not being able to buy an open 3 point shot to save his life ( 3 – 17 from three in that series )
Compare that to 2011:
- JJ has a MONSTER Game 1 that we won
- scored 20 or more in 4 of the 6 games . . compared to zero the previous year
- shot below 40% in only 2 of the games.
- only had one horrific game
JJ last year vs Orlando was far and away better than JJ vs Orlando in 2010
northcyde
April 17th, 2012
3:53 pm
Jay . . well you’ll just have to get over that man. It’s not Marvin’s fault that the ASG overpaid that dude. They felt that they needed to keep Marvin in the fold, so they gave him an inflated contracted ( which looked to be a pretty fair contract at the time ).
drmaryb.(*_*).
April 17th, 2012
3:55 pm
Rooks!
“i think woody prefers veterens over youth but i think ld is the same way. ” -briggy-
__________
So, did Lenny Wilkens and all other successful established NBA coaches. Typically, only lottery picks on bad teams start out as starters.
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
4:04 pm
2009-10 Hawks-Magic series
Offensive rating
Game 1: Magic 124.7, Hawks 77.7
Game 2: Magic 138.5, Hawks 121.2
Game 3: Magic 127.7, Hawks 91.2
Game 4: Magic 117.0, Hawks 100.3
2010-11 Hawks-Magic series
Offensive rating
Game 1: Magic 104.4, Hawks 115.6
Game 2: Magic 102.1, Hawks 95.2
Game 3: Magic 103.8, Hawks 108.7
Game 4: Magic 93.4, Hawks 96.7
Game 5: Magic 117.0, Hawks 88.0
Game 6: Magic 102.1, Hawks 105.9
The point of all that is, while the Hawks were somewhat better offensively against Orlando last year as opposed to 2 years ago, the difference between the two years begins and ends with the Hawks’ defense. The Hawks had no answers for Orlando two years ago, and kept Orlando under control last year, pulling out a series win despite not being that impressive offensively. And that defensive difference is almost entirely attributable to LD’s scheme change.
briggy
April 17th, 2012
4:22 pm
drmaryb,
true but if the starter ie bibby isnt cutting it then teague shouldve played
briggy
April 17th, 2012
4:23 pm
Enter your comments here
briggy
April 17th, 2012
4:25 pm
najeh, drmaryb, northclyde, steve w etc what moves would u do to make this hawks team better cause hawks have been stuck for years between a rock and a hard place
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
4:25 pm
Average Hawks offensive rating in the ‘09-’10 series: 97.6
Average Hawks offensive rating in the ‘10-’11 series: 101.7
Average Magic offensive rating in the ‘09-’10 series: 127.0
Average Magic offensive rating in the ‘10-’11 series: 103.8
Whatever personnel changes the Magic made, combined with whatever offensive scheme changes the Hawks made, resulted in 4 points per 100 possessions more for the Hawks. Not an insignificant improvement, but nowhere close to the 23 fewer points per possession the Hawks allowed on D.
doc
April 17th, 2012
4:43 pm
if al gets back on the court for meaningful minutes no one should ever doubt the size of his nads. for sure no one of the inquiring mind has to doubt the size of his camel toe of his partner.
stevew 38-28? not 48-38 i presume. i maxed them out at 36 so i might miss by a few. they sould get some cudos with the injuries and improved rosters in the east.
i hate the idea of boston fans in the phil, sold out, which it wouldnt be for the pacers. it makes it hard to be either a hawks player or a fan. almost like a high school intense rivalry at a neutral site.
DawgNole
April 17th, 2012
5:14 pm
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
2:28 pm
Right this second, the Pacers have become red hot – I’m not sure I want them instead of Boston. Just bring on whoever, and let’s get it on and do this thing! Give us Miami or the Bulls in Round 1 – I don’t care. Just get in there and fight like a bunch of men should!
_____________________
Don’t always agree with you, SW, but you’re right on the money here. As I wrote earlier this week, I could care less WHO we play in the postseason, I just want to WIN in the postseason. All these “fans” pulling for the Hawks to lose for playoff seeding can’t be true fans. WIN–especially in the playoffs–and everything else will take care of itself.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
5:20 pm
Doc – Haha – yes, 38-28 was my prediction.
DawgNole
April 17th, 2012
5:24 pm
Section 303
April 17th, 2012
9:54 am
They cannot throw away the Detroit game tomorrown night. Pistons are a lot like the Raptors. Teams that are out of it, but not playing like they are out of it. Pistons have been playing tough lately.
______________________
That’s a legitimate concern (looking past Detroit), with Boston looming Friday.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
5:26 pm
Boston and Orlando play each other tomorrow nite, so if we take care of business at H against the Pistons, we get ahead of somebody.
All Road games are over. The Hawks close on a 5 game homestand. Win them all, and we almost control our own destiny. Only Boston winning out would give them a H court advantage on the Hawks.
prison mike
April 17th, 2012
5:27 pm
I can’t but wonder if Al has an underdeveloped chicken arm. With that I wouldn’t be surprised if he got 20 mpg the last 2 regular season games.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
5:29 pm
I think the psychological boost of getting Al back would be enormous for the Hawks. Just listening to JJ’s comments the past month has shown me that is on his mind. I think they feel they can compete with anyone if Al’s healthy. Look how they started the season playing Miami and Chicago with Al healthy.
DawgNole
April 17th, 2012
5:30 pm
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
3:07 pm
The Atlanta Hawks have never won a playoff series in 4 consecutive years. It would be nice to put an end to that streak.
And yes Dawgnole, it would be nice to win a Championship! Go Hawks!!
_____________________
A championship obviously is WAY overdue, but even if they do no more than show progress in this their 45th year (i.e., making it past Round 2), it would at least indicate they’re heading in the right direction. Year after year of the same old crap is what has long since gotten old.
DawgNole
April 17th, 2012
5:32 pm
Rev in Tampa
April 17th, 2012
10:53 am
The Hawks quit on Woody resulting in one of the most embarrassing collapses in all of professional sports (rivaled only by the Braves/Red Sox last season). I bet several on the blog can easily recall from memory the point total that the Magic beat the Hawks by in the 2010 playoffs.
A big part of coaching is motivating the players. Larry Drew has the secret button that he presses to make this team go. (Apparently he forgot to press it Sunday night.)
That’s as far as I am able to go in giving Drew credit. Just about everything else he does befuddles me. But that one element is HUGE in making this mentally dysfunctional team “go”.
And, as I have pointed out before, MC called out Drew for not playing Teague last year. MC was relentless and bold, yet classy. It made Drew look foolish. But Drew did not change his stubborn ways until forced to by Hinrich’s injury.
So, I give Drew credit for moving the Hawks past the PLATEAU that Woody reached, but that’s about it.
_____________________
An accurate summation, IMO.
DawgNole
April 17th, 2012
5:36 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
12:09 pm
You are correct that he is much better than Woody, but that is a little like saying Bridget The Midget is taller than Mini-Me.
______________________
Which is why we still haven’t made it past Round 2.
SteveW
April 17th, 2012
5:39 pm
The playoffs begin April 28th, so Al has 11 days to get in game shape. Hmmm, that’s more than I thought, but still not quite enough time.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see him play that last game against the Mavs maybe – 9 days away.
Najeh Davenpoop
April 17th, 2012
5:41 pm
“i hate the idea of boston fans in the phil, sold out, which it wouldnt be for the pacers. it makes it hard to be either a hawks player or a fan. almost like a high school intense rivalry at a neutral site.”
The last time the Celtics played playoff games in Philips Arena, they worked out pretty well for the Hawks, even with all the Celtics fans in the house. Those crowds were electric. Hawks just gotta take care of business and the fans will get on their side.
Bravesfan79
April 17th, 2012
5:52 pm
Big Lou: Totally agree with what u said about the conspiracy theories, esp the Kings/ Lakers… And i think even Jazz / Bulls and Lakers/ 76ers series. No one ever gives Mutombo enough credit for leading that team defensively into the playoffs, but dude was a Beast! If not for Shaq pushing him all over the place without a foul ever being called, they might of taken it.
briggy
April 17th, 2012
5:59 pm
at this point doesnt matter who hawks play to me although i think if hawks play celtics the attendance by hawks fans will be better than i they play indiana. hawks celtics is the sexier mattchup than hawks pacers even if hawks dont have homecourt against celtics
Mike
April 17th, 2012
6:00 pm
This playoffs is going to be the most important in Atlanta Hawks history, because if this team doesnt get passed the first or atleast win a couple of game in the second. Then the core is going to be dismantle, Hawks dont have much money to pay for three large contacts with Josh, AL, JJ, plus Zaza iS unrestricted and Teague is restricted then you have to pay for Pargo, Ivan and others. I hope they can get to ECF or better because if it doesnt. You going to see a wholesale changes.
kingd92
April 17th, 2012
6:01 pm
Can we please start Tmac over Kirk for the playoffs! Btw Al cleared for contact!
Playoff lineup:
Pg- Teague (6′2”)
Sg/sf- Tmac (6′8”)
Sg/sf- JJ (6′7″)
Pf- Smoove (6′9”)
C- Al/zaza (6′11″), if slow recovery- Ivan (6′8″ plays like 6′11″)
That’s a lot of length out there. I like to see the likes of bradley, korver, rip and ray allen trying to guard t-mac in the low post. Double teams would be inevitable leading to open buckets.
kingd92
April 17th, 2012
6:04 pm
Bench:
pg- Pargo
sg- kirk/willie
sf- marvin
pf- Ivan
c- Zaza
pf/c- rotation depends on the injury situation. With the upcoming centers being Garnett and Noah there is no need for Twin or Damp to see the court. Oh and Rad in spot minutes.
prison mike
April 17th, 2012
6:22 pm
“With the upcoming centers being Garnett and Noah”
You are way off base. We have a pretty difficult last 5 games. We could easily face the Pacers in the first round which I don’t prefer because they are deep.
I like the Celtics matchup more than most. Games are going to be fast and furious and their bench would be worst than ours.
High-sider
April 17th, 2012
6:30 pm
^should be …In the next season [2010-2011*], LD was primarily hired because he supposedly impressed Hawks’ management with his presentation…”
doc
April 17th, 2012
6:34 pm
yes najeh, was there. it would be intense for sure looking back only a couple of weeks ago at what went donw. i think the fan base has actually gone down since then though.
kingd92
April 17th, 2012
6:35 pm
@ Prison mike:
Orlando last five games (no Dwight): @Bos (L) @Utah @Den (1-1 versus Den/Ut) Char (W) @ Mem (L)
Orlando will most likely go 2-3 in their last 5. Since we own the tiebreaker we only have to win two more to stay at the 5 seed. I know our schedule is tough but i think we can muster at least two wins. The first being against Det and the second against either Bos or NY. So most likely we will be playing Bos and then Chi (if we win). So I fail to see how: “With the upcoming centers being Garnett and Noah” is way off base. Please explain.
kingd92
April 17th, 2012
6:37 pm
@ prison mike
Plus I agree with you about the Celtics as I like the match up as well. It all rests on if Teague can man up and play with Rondo.
doc
April 17th, 2012
6:38 pm
the good thing about playing ivan more is he will not be intimidated and he is only getting better. he is our brandon bass finally though he might be better. his bulk and quickness will wear folks down too. i love to watch how he takes space and his quick feet getting under the opponent.
please let twin stay on the bench and only be seen when their second line players are in.
doc
April 17th, 2012
6:42 pm
the schedule suggests the only way we can lay down enough to get to six is to start twin and erik at point and shooting guard respectively.