Atlanta Hawks: On playoff seeding
Judging by the persistent questions from Tweeps, it seems there is some confusion about what happens if the No. 5 seed in the East finishes with a better record than the No. 4 seed. This is possible because division winners can finish no worse than No. 4. This season the No. 5 seed could very well have a better record than the Atlantic winner. It’s why the Hawks remain behind the Celtics (and before that, the Sixers) in the standings even though they have the better record, which only adds to the confusion.
I’ve maintained all along that the Hawks would get home-court advantage if that’s the way they finish but the questions persist. So, to put it to rest once and for all, I e-mailed NBA spokesman Tim Frank. His reply:
“Better record always gets home court.”
There it is, plainly stated. The Hawks would get home-court advantage as the No. 5 seed if their record is better than a division winner with a worst record. As it stands now, that means the Hawks would play host to the Celtics in the first round even though the Celtics would have the better seed.
You might ask why reward a division winner the No. 4 seed if it doesn’t get home-court advantage anyway. In practice, it assures that a division winner will face an opponent with no better than the fourth-best record in the conference. Normally that’s not relevant but it can be in a season like this, the best Atlantic teams are bunched together
with so-so records.
Besides, as Josh Smith wryly noted the other day when the topic came up: “They get to hang up a banner.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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407 comments Add your comment
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
3:46 pm
Najeh,
Allen will be starting come playoff time. Remember LD is the coach of the Hawks. It took him almost two years to remove Marvin from the starting lineup, and you think that he will start Ivan against the Celtics. I very seriously doubt it.
O'Brien
April 9th, 2012
3:47 pm
Also, on the majority of Marvin’s shots he is open. No excuse for not knocking down shots with his stroke when you are that open.
And despite his overall numbers, alot of his points are empty points, in that they come before halftime, or when the game is already out of hand. In crunch time, Marvin hardly ever knocks down a big shot. I’m not saying he doesn’t. But as open as he is, he needs to knock down more.
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
3:54 pm
Rod, by no means is Marvin better than Jamal. But I truthfully wouldn’t want either on my teams. And Nate Robinson and Salim Stoudemire has balls bigger than Marvin, but I’ll still take Marvin. Actually, if they both had the same price tag, I would take Marvin over Jamal. I just don’t think Jamal is a winner. If every team you go to, every one else is the probably except you, than chances are, you are the problem. The Hawks are winning more this season without Jamal (and without Al). True you could say that part of that is because Bibby was here last season. But that is canceled out by the fact that Al isn’t playing. People compared Jamal to Jason Terry. But the truth is Terry has always been a more disciplined player than Jamal, and less streaky than he. And because of this, he’s been a better winner. Out of each of the teams Jamal has played for, the Hawks are about the only team which didn’t have a worse record the year after his arrival, than they did the year before. See if the question is who should currently be a Hawk: a) Marvin Williams or b)Jamal Crawford. Then the answer is c) neither one of the two.
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
3:56 pm
If the playoffs were being called by the NCAA refs, and not Stern’s goons, the series would be 4-1, Hawks. But instead it may go 7 games.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
3:57 pm
lol @ doc….
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
3:59 pm
The coaching is so much better in the Playoffs..Larry will have his hands full…..
so glad we got TMAC!
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:08 pm
While I am not an LD is a great coach guy. He gets major props from me for removing Marvin from the starting lineup. That, and not doubling Dwight Howard are the best moves that any coach for the Hawks has made over the past 7 years.
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
4:09 pm
Am I the only one who think Harrison Barnes is another Marvin? Aka A Player with potential, but will never live up to it.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:11 pm
Ra’mon,
I not comparing Marvin Williams, and Jamal Crawford. Just responding to northcyde’s post. There is no comparison. One guy can play, the other can’t. Simple. theyy don’t play the same position. Compare Marvin to other starting SF’s.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:12 pm
“Am I the only one who think Harrison Barnes is another Marvin? Aka A Player with potential, but will never live up to it.”
As long as he can hit a layup without getting blocked by the backboard, or stumbling over his own feet, he could never be another Marvin Williams.
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
4:15 pm
Rod, one guy can play, the other guy can’t. But the guy who can’t still has been on more playoff teams and started more playoff games, while the one who can play is nicknamed Mr. Lottery. Also, Marvin wasn’t stumbling in college, and he was dunking more (I’m a huge UNC fan).
doc
April 9th, 2012
4:17 pm
to set the history correct the year that t mac was sidelined by a knee injury was the year the rockets, yup made it out of the first round into the second round. guess it hurts you when you have a scorer that shoots 43% starts taking even more shots to boost his numbers in the playoffs,
http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/rockets-trailblazers
drmaryb.(*_*).
April 9th, 2012
4:21 pm
AJ
I have no clue what the problem is with TMac in practice. I was assuming he was at least showing up and being present. If what you are saying is the actual problem, then yeah! I agree with you and I can’t condone being outright disruptive in practice.
I’m just speaking from a coaching perspective on handling players that are aging and injured. Like what Doc Rivers did with Shaq and Jermaine O’Neal in Boston.
He often talked to the press about “special handling circumstances” for hi play off players that he didn’t necc. need to toll in the regular.
My comments were intended to get all up in their business. I just hope coach is not punishing TMac from a personality -vs- practice -vs- health perspective.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:24 pm
“Rod, one guy can play, the other guy can’t. But the guy who can’t still has been on more playoff teams and started more playoff games, while the one who can play is nicknamed Mr. Lottery. Also, Marvin wasn’t stumbling in college, and he was dunking more (I’m a huge UNC fan).”
So based on your logic, Marvin is better than Danny Granger.
drmaryb.(*_*).
April 9th, 2012
4:28 pm
* my comments were NOT intended to get all up in their business.
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
4:28 pm
I never said Marvin was better than Jamal. I’m just saying to say that Marvin does nothing positive for his team (I.e. “Can’t Play’) is false. And by the way, Jamal has been in the league MUCH LONGER than Marvin or Granger.
Melvin
April 9th, 2012
4:29 pm
SlimJr,
This one is for you. There’s no team in the NBA I hate more than the Miami Heat. I would love to see a Heat/Knicks 1st round playoff series with the Knicks winning. That will probably be the only time I cheer for the Knicks unless their win would benefits the Hawks in seeding.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
4:31 pm
C’mon doc, you got to feel good we got TMAC going into these playoffs..
jeppz23
April 9th, 2012
4:34 pm
aye guys, sekou smith just posted a an article supporting jsmoove’s potential all-nba selection
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/04/09/a-top-15-spot-for-josh-smith/
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
4:34 pm
Yea, Doc, you have to say you’d rather have T-Mac than Josh Powell or Mario West.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
4:36 pm
Melvin, I hear ya dude..
What an intense series that would be?
The Big Apple vs. Miami Beach
Melvin
April 9th, 2012
4:37 pm
Below is what Doc, me and some others have noticed with Hinrich in the starting lineup. Hawks are better on offense. Heck, they’re not too shabby on defense either.
Atlanta (34-23)
Pace: 92.2 (23), Off: 101.5 (17), Def: 98.7 (6)
Kirk Hinrich still isn’t making many shots, but the Hawks’ new starting lineup (with Hinrich at the two) has been strong offensively, scoring 109 points per 100 possessions in 311 minutes together. If the Hawks want home-court advantage in the first round, wins in Boston and Orlando this week would really help.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
4:43 pm
BTW, that facial Marvelous Marvin received from from T- Prince the other night was impressive indeed.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
4:44 pm
sorry bout the duplicate^^^
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:48 pm
“I never said Marvin was better than Jamal. I’m just saying to say that Marvin does nothing positive for his team (I.e. “Can’t Play’) is false. And by the way, Jamal has been in the league MUCH LONGER than Marvin or Granger.”
No, but you did say, “But the guy who can’t still has been on more playoff teams and started more playoff games, while the one who can play is nicknamed Mr. Lottery.” so again based on you faulty logic that makes Marvin Williams better than Danny Granger in your mind. Marvin and Granger came into the league at the same time and Marvin has been to the playoffs more, so based on your statement you should think Marvin is better.
So I guess Jamal was the reason the Bulls were not a good basketball team. It had nothing to do with the Jordan, Pippen dynasty ending. I guess Jamal was the reason the Knicks were terrible. Had nothing to do with Isiah running that franchise in the ground. I’m sure you believe that Portland is bad this year because of Jamal Crawford. LOL
I did say Jamal can play, and Marvin can’t. In the NBA, Marvin is not a good basketball player. If he played at the YMCA in a pickup game, he might be dominant, but amongst his peers and coaches he is not thought of highly. Jamal with all of his faults, is respected as an NBA player by most of his peers, and coaches. If Marvin ever leaves Atlanta, that might be the last time you see him in the NBA. You can find many guys in the NBDL who can do what Marvin does. Gerald Green is one.
tjhook
April 9th, 2012
4:49 pm
Why won’t everyone just keep it real and recognize that LD has some personal issue with TMAC, mainly he is worried about insubordination. TMAC is an intelligent guy and his intelligence is probrably compromising some thing LD wants to accomplish with the team. So like other programs when someone is cramping your style, you exclude it. At least that’s the LD way. Extra: Rick Sund deserves some votes for Executive of the Year for bringing in so many productive veterans at the minimum salary. We as fans have tolerated LD’s decisions because Sund gave the man so many athletes to work with. It’s the one reason we have survived.
Almost everyone thought it was a bad idea to keep Stackhouse but Stack help keep us afloat competively for at least a three-week period.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
4:52 pm
Melvin,
It should also prove that Marvin is not as solid a defender as some think. Now imagine if we had a Granger type guy at the 3 or a better guy to plug in at the 2 how dangerous this team would be.
Astro Joe
April 9th, 2012
4:55 pm
Mary, I don’t know what the issue is with TMac and practice. I just suggested stuff other than the grind that you suggested. And my point is that the head coach should make very, very few exceptions when trying to establish a culture of hard work. Given the compressed schedule, I personally doubt that he has these guys running pointless suicide drills.
Again, if you want your team to build a certain culture around hard work, preparation and tenacity, I don’t think you let some old diva who needs to sing the song in a different key because they can’t hit the special note anymore, check out of practice only to show up at game time thinking they are still the man from 2003. Your 28 point playoff average is like talking about Toni Braxton’s collection of hits. TMac ain’t scoring 28 in the playoffs and Toni Braxton (featuring Tony Toni Tone as the opening act) ain’t selling out Philips Arena.
Or should I have gone back farther to Rufus, The Ohio Players and Mother’s Finest?
High-sider
April 9th, 2012
5:01 pm
Rod from College Park,
“You can find many guys in the NBDL who can do what Marvin does. Gerald Green is one.” – Rod from College Park
Ivan Johnson, Marvin Williams’ current teammate, is/was another [player from the NBA D-League] although Ivan [Johnson] is better than Marvin [ Williams]. LOL
Astro Joe
April 9th, 2012
5:01 pm
OB, I must have missed all of the close games that Marvin has finished in the past few years. I’d venture a guess that he has been on the court for less than 40% of close games in the past 3 seasons (certainly since Jamal arrived and even this season).
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
5:02 pm
Rod, once again, check the record of the Bulls and the Knicks the season after Jamal left. GOOD players don’t end up playing for 5 teams before their prime years are even up. Jamal is a CAREER 41% shooter, but you think THAT is winning basketball? Really? Think about all of the HALL OF FAME HEAD COACHES who did not want Jamal Crawford on their team (Don Nelson, Larry Brown, and Lenny Wilkins). How do you explain the Hawks having a HIGHER winning percentage this season without Jamal, even though Al is down also? And by the way, in the playoffs, Jamal only averaged 39% from the field. And you think he’s going to be who the Hawks miss in the playoffs? To be honest, Jamal didn’t do that much more than what Flip Murray did for 15% of the cost, or Willie Green has provided. Jamal is a one dimensional player, who isn’t in the 10 ten of what he’s supposed to be great at. Jamal is 6-6 and averages just as many turnovers per game as he does rebounds. And we’re not going to go to the defensive side. If Jamal scores 15 points in a game, I’m sure he gave up 14 points on defense.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
5:04 pm
The TMac, LD issues come down to this. TMac feels like there is no reason he should not be getting substantial minutes, behind a guy who is only putting up 9.9ppg,5 rebounds, and 1.2 apg in 26 minutes. Bottom line he is correct. If TMac is given those minutes he produces better numbers all around, and he makes the team better. LD is used to most of these guys, and has no one on the team other than Josh, and TMac who will question his authority. TMac did, and LD has punished him for it, at the expense of the team. Hopefully he will realize that his playmaking ability and his overall game could be a huge asset for this team who has no real playmakers in the playoffs.
drmaryb.(*_*).
April 9th, 2012
5:05 pm
Aj
I love that musician’s analogy – big time. I saw unsung last night featuring my girl:
Phyliss Hyman and Rueben Studdard. Nice, I didn’t know Phyliss was bipolar and quite the hand full @ being a total Diva! She and Clive Davis were like oil and water.
Arista had to drop her due to creative differences. Speaking of TMac, there may be some similarities. I agree with you – 100! Coach has to control the locker room first and foremost.
I knew TMac said some inappropriate things to the media, but I thought all that was settled. Looks like there may be some personality issues going on there. That’s too bad, because those 6 rebs and 6 assts could carry this team a very long way in round 2.
Thanks for the comments and perspective. Very enlightneing to my point of view. I just want everybody to play nice and WIN!!!! No drama!!!
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
5:08 pm
“Now imagine if we had a Granger type guy at the 3 or a better guy to plug in at the 2 how dangerous this team would be.” -Rod-
Rod,I brought up Granger’s name last week and some Genius on this Blog became highly insulted…I told him to seek help… LOL!
drmaryb.(*_*).
April 9th, 2012
5:15 pm
AJ!
Ohio Player’s, Mother Finest? Ha Ha … Watch it young fella, you trying to push me outa’ here in a wheel chair. I’m still in my early 40’s. LOL, my Mom’s and Cousins taught me about all the great musicians of their era. I’m not that old.
I saw what you did there.
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
5:17 pm
msmaryb, Phyliss Hyman supposedly left a note behind stating she loved everybody”you know who you are” and that she was just tired of it all..Just tragic stuff..Sad just sad..I saw her once up in Manhattan.She look Amazonian standing 6 feet tall and in heels at least 6′4″! What a beauty!
“the great and never late Phyliss Hyman” -Slimjr-
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
5:19 pm
drmaryb, sorry had a late night! got to get some rest…..
doc
April 9th, 2012
5:20 pm
slimj i dont care how tmac does it, i certainly dont think we need him to score 28 ppg, it would be nice to see tmac play with a team that makes it into the 2nd round or even an ecf this year. heh heh
Ra'mon
April 9th, 2012
5:20 pm
Marvin is a career 45% shooter from the field. And the only reason his scoring has went down, was because his shot attempts went down as well from 11.5 (he shot 46% that season) to 8.2. And while at it, Marvin has been one of the best wing defenders on the team for the last 4-5 seasons. So you’re saying a guy who shoots higher than the league average is not a good basketball player. (And don’t tell me because he’s open majority of the time, because the AVERAGE NBA player is open on most shots, because the AVERAGE NBA defense double team superstars and also the post). He still averages 5.3 on the boards. And truth be told, his production dropped with the arrival of Jamal, because his minutes dropped the same season. The season before Jamal came, Marvin averaged 14 ppg/ 6 rpg / 45% from the field/ 35% from 3/ and 80% from the line. And you say THOSE numbers are better than the AVERAGE NBA player. And the AVERAGE NBA player is a good basketball player, that is why the NBA is the best league in the world, because they have the best players in the world.
Yet you go around hyping up Jamal Crawford. Jamal is in his 11th season, and has only had 2 seasons in which he shot better than a measly 43% from the field (second seasons doesn’t count, because he only played in 23 games that season). In fact, he’s had more complete seasons where he’s shot UNDER 40% than he’s had in which he shot over the league average of 43%. Throughout his career, he’s averaged more than 15 fga per game 6 times in his career, while still only averaging 15 ppg for his career. He’s attempted 4 more fg a game than Marvin for his career, and only averages 4 points more than Marvin for his career. And while we’re at it, Marvin is averaging more free throws a game, than Jamal for his career. So although Jamal CLEARLY has the ball in his hand, more so than Marvin, Marvin is still better at drawing fouls than Jamal. So if you consider Jamal to be a better player than Marvin. And for Marvin (who stats are still better than the average player) to be a terrible player who can’t play. Than based on your judgment, Jamal is just as poorly of a player as Marvin when you factor Marvin’s better defensive and rebounding performances compared to Jamal’s.
Sautee
April 9th, 2012
5:28 pm
“But doc we are only getting 9 and 7 avg in 39 playoff games from our so called very mechanical and very stiff ALLSTAR/All NBA. And he is in his prime? What is his excuse?” – slimjr
Slim, you need to check your nimbers.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/al_horford/career_stats.html
Horford’s careed playoff nimbers are:
11.5 pts, 8.7 reb, 2.7 asst, 1.1 blocks
And those nimbers are brought down by the 09 playoffs where he tried to play on an injured ankle and was ineffective (6.9 pt, 5.8 reb). Without that year, his nimbers would be:
12.8 points (as the 4th or 5th option on offense), 9.6 reb.
Or about what we would expect, without a larger role on offense. And different enough from 9 and 7, that it needed correcting.
Slim, you can’t just parrot what T-s spouts and expect it to be factual.
And, to be clear, unless Horford is willing to get back in the paint and work, I’d just as soon he stayed off the court. I do NOT excuse his play last spring.
Atlanta Hawks: On playoff seeding – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) (NBA Basketball) - NBA BASKETBALL News Updates - NBA Basketball Fanatic News Blog
April 9th, 2012
5:30 pm
[...] Atlanta Hawks: On playoff seedingAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)So, to put it to rest once and for all, I e-mailed NBA spokesman Tim Frank. His reply: There it is, plainly stated. The Hawks would get home-court advantage as the No. 5 seed if their record is better than a division winner with a worst record. [...]
Sautee
April 9th, 2012
5:34 pm
“Am I the only one who think Harrison Barnes is another Marvin? Aka A Player with potential, but will never live up to it.”
Actually I think he’s another Rudy Gay. Not bad, maybe one of the more talented players on his team, but far from elite. Barnes is better than Marvin, though, IMO.
High-sider
April 9th, 2012
5:34 pm
Ra’mon and Rod from College Park
“How do you explain the Hawks having a HIGHER winning percentage this season without Jamal, even though Al is down also?” – Ra’mon
Check out this year’s [2011-2012] regular season current winning percentage and the winning percentage of the 2009-2010 regular season which was Jamal Crawford’s first [regular] season with the Hawks. In addition, check out the Hawks’ regular season winning percentages prior to Jamal Crawford’s arrival [to the Hawks]. You do the math; you book it!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/
Slimjr
April 9th, 2012
5:38 pm
10-4 Sautee, Thanks..
doc
April 9th, 2012
5:40 pm
sautee he really just went psychotic there for a moment. he really does know better.
btw those are pretty good numbers for a center. there arent too many more shaq, moses or kareem out there anymore. 12/9 is pretty solid. some people still wearing flowers in their hair, too.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
5:44 pm
“GOOD players don’t end up playing for 5 teams before their prime years are even up.”
Tell that to guys like Chauncy Billups, Ron Artest, Steven Jackson ,who all have rings. Jamal has been in the league for 14 years. He ain’t no spring chicken. Most players, who are not superstars will play for a number of teams, if they are lucky enough to make it that long.
“Jamal is a CAREER 41% shooter, but you think THAT is winning basketball?”
Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said that. But I will say that TMac who is probably the second best 2 guard of this generation is a career 43% FG shooter, and Kobe Bryant is shooting 43% from the field this year. I guess you don’t think they are not good either.
“Think about all of the HALL OF FAME HEAD COACHES who did not want Jamal Crawford on their team (Don Nelson, Larry Brown, and Lenny Wilkins).”
Did don Nelson win an NBA championship that I don’t know about? Lenny Wilkins did not like Dominique or Jason Terry either. Different coaches like different types of players. Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr were not winners until they got with Phil Jackson.
” How do you explain the Hawks having a HIGHER winning percentage this season without Jamal, even though Al is down also?”
The Hawks are built better for the regular season this year. They are a much deeper team. The playoffs however is when all will be told.
“And by the way, in the playoffs, Jamal only averaged 39% from the field. And you think he’s going to be who the Hawks miss in the playoffs?”
He was the leading scorer in the Orlando series, and the socond leading scorer in the playoffs for the Hawks behind Joe Johnson . Hope Willie Green can fill those shoes in the playoffs.
“Jamal is 6-6 and averages just as many turnovers per game as he does rebounds. And we’re not going to go to the defensive side. If Jamal scores 15 points in a game, I’m sure he gave up 14 points on defense.”
He’s actually 6′5, closer to 6-4 with a pretty good wingspan. But you would prefer Marvin giving up 30 ppg to Lebron in the playoffs, and scoring 6 points? OK.
Luke Cage
April 9th, 2012
5:55 pm
“my educated guess is that it’s a kind of tug-o-war where LD wants to see T-Mac have better work habits but T-Mac, who isn’t a practice guy anyway”
In the famous words of Allen Iverson:
we’re talking about practice. I mean listen, we’re sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, not a game, but we’re talking about practice. Not the game that I go out there and die for and play every game like it’s my last, but we’re talking about practice man
SteveW
April 9th, 2012
6:05 pm
Nothing would really surprise me much in these playoffs. If the Knicks played the Heat, and beat them in a 7 game series, it wouldn’t terribly shock me. Maybe some of y’all would be shocked, but not me. If Philly beat Chicago, it would be an upset, but I wouldn’t be floored. Lots of parity among the top 9 teams or so it seems to me.
If the Hawks got beat in round 1, I wouldn’t like it, but no surprise. If they won the East, getting hot at the right time, I’d love it, but not be shocked.
Now if we went 4-0,4-0,4-0,4-0, dominating teams, I would be totally floored. But I expect tough series all over in these playoffs, and even if somebody wins a series in 5, I think most of the games will be hard fought. Just my take.
Rod from College Park
April 9th, 2012
6:12 pm
“Marvin is a career 45% shooter from the field. And the only reason his scoring has went down, was because his shot attempts went down as well from 11.5 (he shot 46% that season) to 8.2.”
Allen Iverson was a career 42%FG shooter, so again, based on your flawed logic Marvin is better than AI. If you like Marvin, you are entitled to your opinion, but trying to compare him to guys that are very good basketball players won’t work. He is now being used as should have been used for most of his career, as a guy coming off the bench. MArvin is not abbove average in anything he does except free throw shooting. He gets some of the best looks of any player in the league, especially when on the floor with the starters. He should be shooting 60% from the field with all of the open looks he gets.
Buddy Grizzard
April 9th, 2012
6:18 pm
“Am I the only one who think Harrison Barnes is another Marvin?” Ra’mon
He was falling off the draft boards last year until Marshall took over at point, then he soared right back to the top. As soon as Marshall got hurt this year, he disappeared. I think you might be onto something Ra’mon.