Updated: Johnson on Hawks’ woes: ‘We are too self conscious about [who is] scoring’
Vivlamore reporting from New York City where the Hawks play the Knicks on Wednesday – their first-hand look at the Linsanity that has caused such a stir in this city.
See update on Joe Johnson injury below.
Twice in a span of eight days, the Hawks fell flat on a national television stage. They lost to the Heat 107-87 at home with ESPN in the house. Monday they fell to the Bulls 90-79 on a Presidents Day telecast by the network. Before both games, coach Larry Drew said, in effect, if his team couldn’t get motivated for such a contest there is something wrong.
Judging by the results, something is wrong.
Following Monday’s game, I spoke with Joe Johnson about why the team has a motivation problem and plays with a lack of energy at times. Here are his comments:
“When I look at our team, we are a very talented team, but I [don’t know] whether guys know their roles or not,” Johnson said. “We know the right thing to do. A lot of times we don’t come out and do it. I just think we should all have one agenda, one goal and that is winning the basketball game. Not who scores what, who does what. I think we are too self conscious about [who is] scoring and the little things that really don’t matter. For us to win the game we have to put all of that to the side and help one another on both ends of the floor. If we don’t do that, we are going to continue to struggle to win games. I think we have to put a lot into perspective about how good we want to be as a team or what direction we are headed in or what are our goals. Right now I’m not sure if everyone has that one common goal – and that is winning.
“We’ve had spurts where we’ve played great together. The ball movement has been great. We’ve had times when we haven’t been so great. Times we haven’t been so great, we have struggled as a team. I know it’s noticeable. I think we just have to start getting the ball into the right people’s hands who make plays, who score the basketball and make others better. That’s it.”
I also sought the veteran’s perspective from Jerry Stackhouse on the issues facing the Hawks, who have lost seven of their past 10 games.
“You are going to have those stretches during the course of the season when it seems like you are struggling a little bit, you don’t know when you are ever going to win again,” Stackhouse said. “You have them a couple times. We are going through one right now. It’s not like we are laying down until the [all-star] break, but I think the break will be good for us. We’ve played a lot of games. Guys are probably a little banged up, a little tired. With all that, the trust wanes a little bit. We’ll get it back. All it takes is a good spirited win.”
UPDATE: Johnson, did not travel with the team to New York today and is returning to Atlanta for an MRI on his left knee. He will not play in the next two games (at New York Wednesday, vs. Orlando Thursday). Johnson has been hampered by tendinitis in his left knee and it caused him to leave Monday’s game in the third quarter and not return.
The Hawks expect to get Marvin Williams back. The forward left the team Sunday due to a death in the family and missed Monday’s game.
I will update from tomorrow morning’s shoot-around.
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308 comments Add your comment
Section 303
February 21st, 2012
3:02 pm
Astro, I agree. Sautee, don’t waste anymore of your life trying to disect what these guys say to the media. It is all the same recycled BS we here every year. Probably fed to them by some PR coach.
steven a smith
February 21st, 2012
3:03 pm
Stackhouse should be cut. Bring in “Agent Zero”
honest_abe
February 21st, 2012
3:03 pm
aj: man oh man. tomorrow night could get ugly. no jj or al. is there any chance the hawks win tomo? i think teague if given ample opportunity will give lin problems on both ends. he’s not quick enough to keep up with teague. other than that i don’t see how the hawks are going to match up.
steven a smith
February 21st, 2012
3:04 pm
Gilbert Arenas would be a nice fit in the ATL.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
3:05 pm
Grandad, 2:56 I can agree with that. And I still believe much of it stems from the organization. If you substitute the ‘team’ word for the word owners, management, or coaching staff (remember Woody and LD getting into it often on sideline), the statement is still true. For much of the ‘core’ this is the only team/organization they’ve ever played for. So they truly don’t know anything else besides professional dysfunction.
steven a smith
February 21st, 2012
3:07 pm
Marvin Williams? Careful what you wish for my friend, you might just get it….
bigdave
February 21st, 2012
3:08 pm
co-sign Stro Joe’s 2:37
“I think we just have to start getting the ball into the right people’s hands who make plays, who score the basketball and make others better. That’s it.”
“very talented team, but I [don’t know] whether guys know their roles or not,”
preach.
Just Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:09 pm
Count me in the group that wants to play the bigger lineup. Josh slimmed down to play more SF.
northcyde
February 21st, 2012
3:09 pm
@ PG slim
If Josh is going to continue to jack up jumpers even when ice cold, that is the type of personnel needed on the floor. But you can’t have him taking most of the shots from the SF position because he’s not going to post up. He’s going to stay out on the perimeter just like he did last year. And since he’s not making jumpers anywhere near the clip he was last year, that would be a recipe for disaster.
A major part of the reason why the Hawks were 2nd or 3rd in offensive efficiency in Woody’s last year, was because of our extremely low turnover rate and our high offensive rebound rate. But since Drew installed his offense, both of those numbers have plummeted. And worse, it took Smith away from the rim on the offensive end. His offensive rebound rate and offensive dating is the lowest of his career. His defensive rebound rate and devensive ratinv is at his highest.
So Josh’s worth to the Hawks is not his offense, it’s his defense. So the coach shouldn’t let him do what he wants on offense.
Which brings us to the other problem. Teague’s leadership skills, which I think as non-existant. A leader type PG could take over this team even when Josh, JJ and others get wild offensively. But because Teague is more of a scoring PG in the mold of Earl Boykins and Nate Robinson, He isn’t able to lead
B'Red
February 21st, 2012
3:11 pm
This team is done for, they dont have any leadership. I dont think we’ll make the playoffs this year, and you know Rick Sund is not gonna make any moves before trade deadline…..Jeremy Lin will make them look stupid tomorrow.
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:12 pm
abe, as you know, when 99% of the world is betting against these guys, they often (not always) shock the world. Between the arrival of Melo, JR Smith and Baron Davis to the Knicks rotation (after the launch of Linsanity), I wouldn’t be surprised if the magic has been permanently lost. Knicks don’t scare me, even with Joe & Al MIA.
ryan
February 21st, 2012
3:13 pm
Can this team get any lower than it already is ASG is sucking the life out of this team is there anything we can do to get out of this hell hole we are in boycott or something .
honest_abe
February 21st, 2012
3:16 pm
aj – true that. hawks always seem to find a way to surprise when it’s the least likely. but, i have a bad feeling about tomorrow night. if there was ever a night for melo and stoudamire to go off … tomorrow would be it.
Just Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:16 pm
One could also argue that Josh shoots more jumpers as a PF since he can’t post up taller players. Josh may increase his post ups if he sees more success against smaller, weaker players.
Baller4Life
February 21st, 2012
3:21 pm
I ain’t seen Stackhouse play yet. What can he know about these Hawks ?
Grandad
February 21st, 2012
3:22 pm
AJ
I am not disputing what you are saying whatsoever.
Matter of fact – I’ve been told the same.
Regardless; I do not believe it, but once again,
I’m not contradicting you atall.
Having coached;
one learns to read players actions toward their teammates.
There has been some shift in the dynamics
over the last couple of years as well.
*LD taking the ball out of Joe’s hands – motion off
*Teaguer’s emergence
*Josh becoming more & more ill tempered [about secondary role]
*Josh – on again, off again, trade rumors
*losing Al’s influence in the lockerroom
*more savvy vets in the lockerroom
*they arn’t kids anymore
*etc
George O`Leary has an axiom that I really, really like:
‘` *Play Hard; *Play Smart; *Play Together; -&- *Play to Win `’
Which; -if any- ;of these traits do the hawks emply or display.
My answer = zero
Grandad
February 21st, 2012
3:25 pm
misspelled & or typos:
*aren’t + *employ
honest_abe
February 21st, 2012
3:26 pm
too bad o leary left out “play fair” when it came to resumes.
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:27 pm
northcyde, LD didn’t want the Hawks to focus on offensive rebounding because it left the team vulnerable to easy transition baskets (which definitely happened during Woody). And with LD convinced that he could employ a scheme that would improve FG%, he likely figured that he could maintain offensive efficiency without the need to leave the backcourt vulnerable. Honestly, that logic is quite sound. Of course, the offensive scheme is far from being consistently effective and with so many jumpers being shot (and missed), it kind of screams “OFFENSIVE REBOUND”. I personally get more frustrated watching opposing teams grab offensive rebounds, as it is NOT a coaching decision not to rebound the ball on the defensive end (although playing Ivan so infrequently calls that into doubt).
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:32 pm
Grandad, I hear you. I tend to simply call it “dysfunction”. From the ASG’s monthly lawsuit down to watching RandMo practice 3-pointers during an open scrimmage/practice a few years ago… dysfunction is the best word for this franchise.
northcyde
February 21st, 2012
3:33 pm
The history of Marvin is that when JJ is out, Marvin balls. Let’s see if this holds true in these next 2 games. But knowing Drew, Green will probably start again with T-Mac at the 3.
Big Lou
February 21st, 2012
3:35 pm
I have to agree with honest_abe and STRETCH.
Josh Smith is a cancer to the Hawks. Yes, the guy has major talent and brings energy to the team. Yet, (I don’t know if it’s because he is plain idiotic) he has a tendency to impede comebacks, cause turnovers from bringing it half court, complain about stupid fouls, screws up defensively trying to get blocks or not helping properly, and hogs the ball on the court.
Let’s point a couple examples of this in the game:
1. The three pointer Derick Rose made in the first quarter against Jeff Teague was allowed because Josh didn’t help on the screen(he usually doesn’t help Teague in screen plays–probably because he doesn’t get along with him).
2. When the Hawks were running zone in the third quarter, Josh didn’t switch on his assignment in an attempt to get a block, which lead to a dish out on his assigned man–easy three followed.
3. (Stretch pointed this out) Josh shot a jumper in the fourth quarter, skipping a wide open Kirk and Green. This was not the only time he did this, for he shot many jumpers that prevented the Hawks comeback in the 3rd and 4th quarter.
4. Josh had is once-per-game turnover in half court, which lead to an easy layup on the other end.
Now, I could keep listing all the mistakes Josh makes, but it would be utter redundancy, for even the some fans, management, and coaching staff have accepted this fool’s poor excuse for basketball IQ. Like I stated before, the guy has talent. Yet, as some fans have stated, his mistakes now outweighs his production. If anything, I think Josh Smith has proven on national television why he was not chosen as an All Star.
Don’t let this take away from the travesty that is Larry Drew. Even though Josh is a cancer (a slow killing yet possible curable issue), LD is a fifty caliber bullet that penetrates the brain of this team, obliterating its hopes/ambitions, as its soft tissues spew upon the floor of unused potential.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
Northcyde, Marvin stated he wants to have an increased role OFFENSIVELY. What could that mean if not for shot attempts? There are certainly many opportunities for him to get on the offensive glass and to CONTRIBUTE more offensively. The guy can’t score on players who are 3-4 inches shorter than him. And he can’t grab a rebound over them. So what other increased role does he expect? He can’t dribble more than three dribbles at a time. He can’t take you one on one to set up another teammate.
And I don’t think Josh minds Teague scoring. But what he is saying is, get your teammates going first, as a point guard and then when you drive the lane, you’re have an easier time finishing at the rim. Because right now, the defense isn’t expecting you to pass it or kick it out, so they’re collapsing on you, leading to a more difficult shot attempt. Just two weeks ago, Joe said he agreed with what Josh was saying about the offense and ball movement (by the way, Josh is leading team in assists through the last month), while LD was saying the problem is defense.
kwooden
February 21st, 2012
3:38 pm
Without Joe until at least the end of the All-Star Break games, we really get to see how far Josh has come as a player. Big Ray you wanted just one 1 captain, now you’ve got it! I think LD’s lineups should be:
1st Team
Teague, Green, Marvin, JJ, Zaza
2nd Team
Pargo, Hinich, Tracy, Vlad, Ivan
3rd Team
Damp
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
3:46 pm
Ra’mon, technically, we haven’t read any quotes from Marvin about his role in the offense. Just a report with no identified sources. And again, interesting timing considering that dude has been dealing with a family death in the past few days. Maybe Broussard “sees dead people” and they are the sources reporting Marvin’s concerns.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
3:48 pm
AJ, majority of the offensive rebounds given up against Portland were LONG rebounds that were picked up by their perimeter players. That sounds like it goes back to Joe/Marvin/ and who ever else in the back court. Josh (10) and Zaza (10) did their jobs on the defensive boards in that game. Yet despite the rebounding edge, LD manage to give Vlad 22 minutes, and he finished with 1 total rebound. Willie Green, Kirk, and Jeff Teague each played over 20 minutes, but had zero rebounds. Joe Johnson and Marvin had 5 rebounds combined.
By the way, Joe’s numbers for the month are 14 Points, 2.7 Reb, 3.9 Assists shooting 39% in 36 minutes per game. Josh may not be the best shooter. But some games its hard to tell if a Josh jumper is worse than a jumper by Joe.
terrell
February 21st, 2012
3:49 pm
So Marvin wants out huh? lmao
terrell
February 21st, 2012
3:49 pm
And whatever Joe.
Hollywould
February 21st, 2012
3:51 pm
Shut up Joe. Told you guys on the blog before the Bulls game that over/under on rebounds by Joe was 2. Dam, I was dead on it. What is that 6 rebounds in his last 4 games? Tired of hearing his crap. DO SOMETHING JOHNSON or shut up.
Sautee
February 21st, 2012
3:53 pm
The Lakers released a statement by general manager Mitch Kupchak prior to the Lakers’ game against the Portland Trail Blazers.
“As general manager of the Lakers, I have a responsibility to ownership, our fans and the players on this team to actively pursue opportunities to improve the team for this season and seasons to come,” Kupchak said in the statement. “To say publicly that we would not do this would serve no purpose and put us at a competitive disadvantage. Taking such a course of action at this time would be a disservice to ownership, the team and our many fans.”
Rick Sund: “We’re happy with our big men”. Enough said.
tyger
February 21st, 2012
3:53 pm
Joe Trippin…”self-conscious about who”s scoring”?
You are not scoring, you are shooting and missing and missing and missing….
honest_abe
February 21st, 2012
3:54 pm
hmmmmm. jj constantly double teamed as well as facing the opponent’s best defender compared to………
josh smith takes those jumpers with nobody within 10 feet of him. defenses lull him into taking those jumpers. it’s become a matter of respect for josh. he refuses to believe he can’t shoot. his time would be better spent practicing free throws. become an 80% ft shooter and at opportune times attack the basket. such a more efficient way to play.
one can dream.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
3:56 pm
AJ, I trust Broussard’s report more than anyone else at ESPN short of Stephen A.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
4:00 pm
Honest Abe, that isn’t always true. If you ask the BEST scorers, taking a contested jumper is almost easier and better than wide open jumpers. Why do you think MJ, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant always played the best against better competition? How many times did Kobe drop 30-40 on Bruce Bowen? Or how many times do we hear commentators say he was ‘too wide open’ on that shot. Joe isn’t the first all star to face double teams. And he won’t be the last. Actually if you think about it, Glen Rice was a better scorer than Joe, and he was doubled every night.
STRETCH
February 21st, 2012
4:01 pm
Big Lou,
But you and I both know that management, Sund and Drew has made their big splash for this season by picking up Dampier.
So Josh will continue his ways due to the fact they dont want to rock the boat anymore. Its all about making moves at this point with this CORE. You just dont blow the whole thing up at one time, but thats what these idiots are going to try and do.
JS should have been moved last season for a SF that would compliment the type of offense the Hawks run. They run mostly through JJ, with guys standing around.
JS and Marvin are slashers but JJ holds the ball a lot so they were in desperation of a SF that could also create his own shots. And we now see whats happening, teams are doubling Joe and letting JS shoot bricks and they are off to the races!
But they dont think with conveintional common sense like the rest of us. For example, a lineup of:
JT KH/Pargo
JJ WG
(Insert SF that can score)T-Mac/Marvin
Al/(At his natural position)/Ivan/Vlad
Zaza/Dampier/Cheesburger Collins
They could have probably had Caron Butler, Stephen Jackson, John Salmons or even a Michael Beasley or Martell Webster!
Just a sorry and piss poor run organization!
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
4:01 pm
Honest Abe, the difference between Joe going 0 for 7 on jumpers and Josh going 0 for 7 on jumpers is. When Joe goes 0 for 7, he gets you 1-3 rebounds, and 3 assists. When Josh goes 0 for 7 on jumpers, he still ends up with 17 points, 10 rebounds, 4-6 assists, 3 blocks, and 3 steals.
prison mike
February 21st, 2012
4:02 pm
“Based on my projections, if Joe Johnson misses ASG and Stern doesn’t pick Josh Smith, Smoove will avg. 40 pts, 28 reb. post AS”
Now that’s pretty funny. Josh could go Super Saiyan and still get passed over with Stern not even blinking.
Grandad
February 21st, 2012
4:05 pm
AJ
‘`dysfunctional`’
-good word-
-sums up the Hawks-
Kinda like the Bundy’s
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
4:09 pm
Ra’mon, hawks are 24th in rebounding for the season. I try not to react to a sample of one (in this case Portland). Regarding Joe’s recent performance, he has been bad, no doubt. I suspect that his knee didn’t develop tendinitis overnight in Chicago. I recall a similar bout with poor shooting last year when his elbow was the issue. For some bizarre reason, i find it easier to forgive physical problems like an elbow that needs surgery or a knee that requires attention, than long-standing mental issues like passing the ball to the PG to lead a fast break. But I acknowledge that others think differently.
honest_abe
February 21st, 2012
4:09 pm
Honest Abe, that isn’t always true. If you ask the BEST scorers, taking a contested jumper is almost easier and better than wide open jumpers. Why do you think MJ, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant always played the best against better competition? How many times did Kobe drop 30-40 on Bruce Bowen? Or how many times do we hear commentators say he was ‘too wide open’ on that shot. Joe isn’t the first all star to face double teams. And he won’t be the last. Actually if you think about it, Glen Rice was a better scorer than Joe, and he was doubled every night. – ramon
HAHAH – man i literally laughed out loud. that’s some funny sh!t! so now josh has a harder go of it because he’s TOO wide open.
as i said before it’s not always about stats. josh is a stat filler but everything he does goes against the flow of the game. it’s his mindset that he’s an offensive force. that commercial on fox sports does not help! thing is josh has very good vision and can make some really nice passes. it’s when he think’s he the 2nd coming of magic johnson when we start running into problems. know your freakin role!
look i’m not absolving jj from anything. he’s as much to blame as anyone else. when you sign a big contract you’re expected to produce. but josh is doing things that are a detriment to the team. josh is impossible and really not worth my time writing a critique. so i’ll end it there.
ltdbrave
February 21st, 2012
4:10 pm
The Hawks just plain stink. Johnson and Williams are nothing more than overpaid ball boys. When is Sund going to wake up and dump the both of them. They contribute nothing to the synergy of the team much less any scoring. Both of them have been kept around way too long.
Grandad
February 21st, 2012
4:17 pm
Standing Ovation for Honest Abe; Sincerely:
G-dad
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
4:18 pm
AJ, out of all of the mental ‘lapses’ they say Josh has, he still only average 2 turnovers a game. The same as our fearless leader. As well as the same as Melo, Amare, Wade, and others. But foolish Josh right.
Abe, I didn’t say Josh is missing because he’s too wide open. I’m saying don’t say Joe has only scored 20 points ONCE this entire month because of double teams.
Melvin
February 21st, 2012
4:25 pm
Since LD likes to meniton how this team doesn’t play with energy all the time, maybe the trainer should start checking their water bottles….
“Closs answers questions about why his three-season NBA career showed only glimpses of the freckle-faced Keith Closs who blocked an NCAA- record 5.87 shots per game at Central Connecticut State; the one the Los Angeles Clippers signed to five-year, $8.5 million deal in 1997.
“I was drinking in the NBA,” Closs explains of his alcohol-abbreviated career in the League. “I was drinking on the bench, too. That wasn’t Gatorade in my water bottle; it was whatever I’d brought with me from the liquor store on the way to the arena. I had grown very resentful of the fact that I wasn’t playing…I felt like I was wasting away.””
Grandad
February 21st, 2012
4:26 pm
Ra’mon
If you believe that;
two turnovers per game for Josh;
is accurate;
then please start counting them yourself.
I will wager you that his turnover avg should be at least double.
I’ll wager all the money in my pockets right now.
(’course I ain’t wearin’ any britches at the moment)
*[one ought not ever wager with ol' G-dad]
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
4:29 pm
G’Dad, if you’re going to do that, then you have to start counting EVERY player’s turnovers yourself also, you can’t just do one player, other wise it would have no control in the observation. And since you’ve been counting Josh’s so often. Are not majority of Josh’s turnovers from PASS attempts trying to set up other teammates more so than offensive fouls, lost dribbles out of bounce, or traveling? Josh isn’t making the selfish turnovers like Rider and others used to make.
mykhalc
February 21st, 2012
4:37 pm
this team is long passed KA BOOM!!! more sad and pathetic by the day/season…BORING sums it up!!!
Just Joe
February 21st, 2012
4:38 pm
Joe to Orlando for Turkoglu, Reddick, and 2013 1st rd pick (golden if Dwight walks).
Reddick to Minnesota…Beasley to Lakers…Trade exception to Hawks.
2nd rd pick & trade exception to Denver for Chris Anderson.
Net trade activity is Joe Johnson for Hedo Turkoglu, Chris Anderson, 1st & 2nd rd draft picks, and cap savings ($4M this year, $4M the next, $10M the next, and $24M the next).
Burry Marvin at the end of the bench until he waives his 2013/14 option, and accepts an early “buy out” next year.
Astro Joe
February 21st, 2012
4:40 pm
Ra’mon, Josh makes plenty of boneheaded decisions IMO. I may be the one and only blogger on the planet who believes that. And I sleep very well each and every night being a lone wolf who believes that he makes too many boneheaded decisions. He is a remarkable talent who usually overcomes his own human condition to produce terrific results. But when we discuss going from the status quo to another level, Josh also should be expected to go to another level. Likewise, when we evaluate specific points in time when a game goes from good to bad, we need not isolate those times for player A while routinely focusing on the totality of Josh’s performance. If a player can miss an ill-timed shot, then surely, Josh could have an ill-time boneheaded play.
Ra'mon
February 21st, 2012
4:42 pm
Trade Josh, Marvin, and Kirk to the Lakers for Gasol and Artest.