Updated: Johnson on Hawks’ woes: ‘We are too self conscious about [who is] scoring’

Vivlamore reporting from New York City where the Hawks play the Knicks on Wednesday – their first-hand look at the Linsanity that has caused such a stir in this city.

See update on Joe Johnson injury below.

Twice in a span of eight days, the Hawks fell flat on a national television stage. They lost to the Heat 107-87 at home with ESPN in the house. Monday they fell to the Bulls 90-79 on a Presidents Day telecast by the network. Before both games, coach Larry Drew said, in effect, if his team couldn’t get motivated for such a contest there is something wrong.

Judging by the results, something is wrong.

Following Monday’s game, I spoke with Joe Johnson about why the team has a motivation problem and plays with a lack of energy at times. Here are his comments:

“When I look at our team, we are a very talented team, but I [don’t know] whether guys know their roles or not,” Johnson said. “We know the right thing to do. A lot of times we don’t come out and do it. I just think we should all have one agenda, one goal and that is winning the basketball game. Not who scores what, who does what. I think we are too self conscious about [who is] scoring and the little things that really don’t matter. For us to win the game we have to put all of that to the side and help one another on both ends of the floor. If we don’t do that, we are going to continue to struggle to win games. I think we have to put a lot into perspective about how good we want to be as a team or what direction we are headed in or what are our goals. Right now I’m not sure if everyone has that one common goal – and that is winning.

“We’ve had spurts where we’ve played great together. The ball movement has been great. We’ve had times when we haven’t been so great. Times we haven’t been so great, we have struggled as a team. I know it’s noticeable. I think we just have to start getting the ball into the right people’s hands who make plays, who score the basketball and make others better. That’s it.”

I also sought the veteran’s perspective from Jerry Stackhouse on the issues facing the Hawks, who have lost seven of their past 10 games.

“You are going to have those stretches during the course of the season when it seems like you are struggling a little bit, you don’t know when you are ever going to win again,” Stackhouse said. “You have them a couple times. We are going through one right now. It’s not like we are laying down until the [all-star] break, but I think the break will be good for us. We’ve played a lot of games. Guys are probably a little banged up, a little tired. With all that, the trust wanes a little bit. We’ll get it back. All it takes is a good spirited win.”

UPDATE: Johnson,  did not travel with the team to New York today and is returning to Atlanta for an MRI on his left knee. He will not play in the next two games (at New York Wednesday, vs. Orlando Thursday). Johnson has been hampered by tendinitis in his left knee and it caused him to leave Monday’s game in the third quarter and not return.

The Hawks expect to get Marvin Williams back. The forward left the team Sunday due to a death in the family and missed Monday’s game.

I will update from tomorrow morning’s shoot-around.

308 comments Add your comment

northcyde

February 21st, 2012
1:19 pm

Lol. And I just ripped Viv in the last blog about not having a new blog ready. This is more like it, even if it is late.

Tootsi

February 21st, 2012
1:25 pm

Once again, he takes absolutely no responsibility despite his putrid play of late. We are screwed for years to come with his contract and Marvin’s contract.

vino

February 21st, 2012
1:26 pm

does josh and teague really play well together?
new coach will solve alot of problems he will have the guts to tell josh hes a superstar in the paint. and let teague bring the ball up 98% of the time he has to be in the game to do that(See LD). until then this team will be disfunctional no matter how good a spirited win is.
Cant wait till March 1st.

Joe for 3

February 21st, 2012
1:27 pm

iso-joe is the key to good ball movement.

GT Alum

February 21st, 2012
1:29 pm

Hmmm, I wondered if Joe was going to say he’s been guilty of it, too, but based on his comments toward the end of the quote, I have to wonder if he’s saying guys need to get the ball in my hands more.

vino

February 21st, 2012
1:32 pm

Marvin is a better rebounding Klye Korver!!!

We could get Cole Aldrich and filler for Marvin and Filler it will work.

Kirk hinrich and second rounder for Trevor ariza this will work also- note there arent that many serviceable 3’s out there right now.

what yall think

The Truth

February 21st, 2012
1:32 pm

“Before both games, coach Larry Drew said, in effect, if his team couldn’t get motivated for such a contest there is something wrong.”

I’ll tell you what’s wrong:

COACHING ERRORS

I’m so damm sick and tired of being sick and tired of (CLD) Clueless LD and his small-ball coaching, I’ve seen enough. His decision to go small and with a starting line-up of Willie Green (6’3”) at SG on Ronnie Brewer (6’7”) was a costly mistake. The deleted Hawks already struggling with rebounding, this line-up made a bad situation worst. Green collected a grand total of 1 rebound and 6 points the entire game to Brewer’s 6 rebounds and 13 points. Didn’t LD get the memo, IF YOU CAN’T REBOUND; YOU CAN’T WIN.

Not only that, but he also put Willie Green in a straight-jacket making him the 4th/5th scoring option as a starter in this structured offense because JJ and Josh will always take the majority of the shots. Green was 3-6 meaning he only took 6 shots. This is a guy who efficiency rating was almost 80% the previous game and he takes just 6 shots deferring to JJ and Josh in his starting role. LD should have kept Green in his familiar role, coming off the bench and freelancing.

You’ll think after seeing this mistake early enough in the ball-game, LD would make the proper adjustment and get T-mac in the game as the 1st sub. So what does LD do? His 1st sub is a struggling KH for Jeff Teague who previously had made two 3’s trying to regain his MOJO. I’m still trying to figure out how can Teague play nearly 24 min and only take 3 shots (2-3) as a PG and couldn’t contribute more. Maybe it is because Teague is getting mixed signals from his coach who is still playing politics with his PGs.

T-mac (6’8”) would have been the best option to start at SF matching-up JJ (6’7”) on Brewer and T-mac on Deng. That would have been the closest lineup to replicate Marvin’s absence. T-mac rebounding and posting-up ability alone might have made the difference in the first half when, in hindsight, determined the outcome of the game. Considering the 4th qtr run the Hawks made, it was partially due to T-mac’s involvements and attributes.

But (CLD) Clueless LD decided to cut his nose to spite his face. He would rather send the “I’m the coach in charge” message to T-mac and sat him as the last sub off the bench instead of trying to win a desperately needed ball game. ASSSSHOL#E

Rocky

February 21st, 2012
1:41 pm

“I [don’t know] whether guys know their roles or not,” Johnson said.”

..I think it’s obvious that they DON’T, Joe.

“We know the right thing to do. A lot of times we don’t come out and do it. I just think we should all have one agenda, one goal and that is winning the basketball game.”

Then why didn’t you take the 4yr/60M offer? We’d have more money for better players and wouldn’t be in this mess. But when the LEADER acts selfish, the troops will follow.

“Not who scores what, who does what. I think we are too self conscious about [who is] scoring and the little things that really don’t matter.”

Just say Josh’s name and be done with it. Too much whining…

Durrtydogg

February 21st, 2012
1:45 pm

The coach is a problem. That is for sure. He holds grudges and is a little weak and too timid for me. With that being said, this core group of Hawks players is the main reason why we suck. Starting with Marvin Williams who should have been out of here about 3 years ago. He is slow, nonathletic and even his jump shot is not falling. Joe Johnson is and will never be a leader. He is soft, and too laid back to be great. He is not a winner at all and will not be unless he is surrounded by players with heart. Josh Smith is too sensitive. We dont know what to expect when he plays. He has the most talent of anyone on the team and yet, he doesnt lead or try to. Al Horford is our best player and even he gets pulled down by the other three. Jeff Teague doesn’t know what to do. In the playoffs he just let it all out. Now Larry has messed his head up so much he dont know if hes coming or going. I could go on and on but why? The Hawks have shown us time and time again that they are all talk and no substance. They let people talk about them like they dont even exist and all they do is prove them right. And you know what, they will continue spitting in our faces with the way they play because they have no heart and do not care. Its a shame.

northcyde

February 21st, 2012
1:48 pm

Interesting comments from JJ. But as one of the captains of the team, he needs to be telling his teammates this, not the beat writer. It’s not his nature to yell and scream at people, but he can be more in people’s ear on the bench talking to them.

Also, he has to understand that because he is the highest paid on the team and gets the most accolades, people expect HIM to do more.

JJ would be perfect on the Celtics or Spurs, because this is their philosophy. But we’re not those 2 teams. We’re the Hawks. And you are the focal point of the team. So it’s YOU that needs to start leading this team and keep everyone’s head on straight.

The coach is incapable of keeping everyone on the same page, or put the right lineups out on the floor, so it’s up to you as the leader to do everything YOU can to turn this around.

Chris Vivlamore

February 21st, 2012
1:50 pm

northcyde: Easy. A guy has to get from Chicago to New York.

honest_abe

February 21st, 2012
1:51 pm

can cviv start doing this full time? please?

TMACfan

February 21st, 2012
1:56 pm

If we don’t beat NY, we are in major trouble.

Trojan

February 21st, 2012
1:57 pm

LD has lost the team.

Ra'mon

February 21st, 2012
1:58 pm

Rocky, Joe wasn’t talking about Josh at all. Anyone can tell Joe loves playing with Josh. And in fact many of Joe’s assisted buckets come from Josh. Its Josh who’s always looking for Joe on the perimeter off of fast breaks or out of double teams, unlike Teague. Joe’s comments were in regards to Marvin’s complaining about being more offensively in the game plan.

Either way, CV should’ve asked Joe will we ever see him get 8-10 rebounds in a game. And why isn’t Joe challenging for more triple doubles. He has the perfect frame to be a triple double threat weekly.

LT

February 21st, 2012
2:00 pm

Again, I say. The Hawks failure has a lot to do with poor coaching, poor management and poor ownership. The players don’t know their roles cause upper management does not know their roles and are clueless. We need a fresh, new core. And Willie should have stayed coming off the bench. Also, yall see how productive Pargo was for us? That’s what he was doing before Kirk. The 2nd unit is much better with Pargo on the floor!

Ra'mon

February 21st, 2012
2:01 pm

Tomorrow, Teague will have the entire league watching him as he goes up against Lin. Teague needs to play his best game of the season, or become another Twitter hash tag: I.E. “Lin scores on jumper #wheresTeague”

TMACfan

February 21st, 2012
2:04 pm

We can’t just beat NY, we need to rout them.

Sautee

February 21st, 2012
2:04 pm

Joe made these two statements:

“I just think we should all have one agenda, one goal and that is winning the basketball game. Not who scores what, who does what.”

“I think we just have to start getting the ball into the right people’s hands who make plays, who score the basketball and make others better. That’s it.”

Anybody else find this amazingly contradictory? We need to not care who scores, but get the ball into the right people’s hands?

honest_abe

February 21st, 2012
2:07 pm

who do you think those pointed comments were referring to? teague? he doesn’t really shoot. how many shots did he put up against chicago? marvin? he rarely shoots either? the only person worried about getting their shot is josh.

josh is impossible to play with. some of you point to his stats as if that was the deciding factor on whether or not josh can ball. his talent is undeniable. his attitude toward the game, teammates and coach is what makes him the biggest liability on the team. in fact that would be a great research project. “into the mind of josh smith” the retard who continues to shoot and dribble when he can’t do both. josh smith’s play not only destroys the chemistry but the morale on the team as well.

seriously, have you guys listened to steve holman lately? everytime josh shoots a jumper i can hear the pain in his voice. i still watch the majority of hawks games but man it’s tough with that knucklehead being given free reign to do whatever he wants.

Melvin

February 21st, 2012
2:15 pm

The wheels have come off the wagon. Can these guys rally to repair the wagon or remain broke down on the side of the road.

I agree with Stackhouse, every (most) team have at least one bad stretch during the season but it’s up to them to play thru it and correct it…

northcyde

February 21st, 2012
2:19 pm

Lol @ Ramon saying JJ was talking about Marvin. Seriously?

Joe may like playing with Josh. But there’s no way that even JJ approves of almost 70% of Josh’s shots being jumpers with him missing that much. Marvin didn’t say he wanted more shots. He allegedly said that he’d like a bigger role on the team. A big part of that is more playing time, especially when he’s making a contribution.

Fans and coach Drew are strange. Pargo scores 9 points in a quarter, and gets a chance to get extended minutes to help the Hawks. But in the Portland game, Marvin scores 8 points in the 3rd quarter, and doesn’t even get back in the game, with fans calling him sorry.

So to JJs point, he wouldn’t care if it was Marvin who was scoring.

My concern is the Josh – Teague dynamic. JJ tells Teague to be aggressive. Josh tells Teague to be more of a passer. So which guy is more concerned about scoring?

pointguardslim

February 21st, 2012
2:19 pm

Fellow fans. “Josh Smith is a superstar in the paint”. Problem is he’s 6′8 225 lbs.
Troy Murphy, Lavoy Allen (PHI), etc give him problems. Lamarcus Aldridge.

He has shown he cant get into the paint when he has giants covering him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpPprAjDeG0

pg Jeff Teague
sg Joe Johnson
sf Josh Smith
sf Marvin Williams
c Al Horford

The sf is the glue guy who often does a little of everything. Now we have two sfs and 2 different directions we can go. Marvin Williams or Josh Smith

Also the reason Johnson is a “guard” and not a ‘forward” is his complete lack of length and rebounding he provides to the position.

TMACfan

February 21st, 2012
2:19 pm

LOL Melvin, the only time Stackhouse is worth anything is for quotes lol.

STRETCH

February 21st, 2012
2:21 pm

Honest Abe,

Man i was watching the game yesterday and saw Hinrich slap his hands together in disbelief after Josh blew him and Green off. They were both wide open, but Josh jacked up a 20 footer therefore helping to kill any moment they would muster.

The guy is an unbelievable talent but at the same time an unbearable teammate and im pretty sure there are more than a few players in that locker room that hates to play with the guy.

But all this Josh Smith supporters thinks he can do no wrong and that he got shafted by not being an All-star. But it shows that after being in the league over 7 years and not ONE appearance in the game that the fans and coaches know what they dont know.

Atlanta needs to trade this guy, cause right now his super athletic and dumb. Trade now and get something for him before he is super dumb and unathletic!

The Truth

February 21st, 2012
2:21 pm

“Johnson needs to be thinking about his team here. And yes, as much as the man is criticized, as great Josh Smith has been, as important as Horford is when he’s healthy, it’s still Johnson’s team. The Hawks will only go as far as he takes them. He needs to play, he needs to score, even if his personality doesn’t scream, “Jump on my back, guys.” He doesn’t need the NBA’s three carnival events in Orlando — the All-Star Game, the three-point contest and the “Shooting Stars” competition.” – JS

I’m normally not a big fan of Schultz but I agree with this comment. JJ needs to pass on all All-star events. If he is true to words about putting the team first, then setting out would be the best thing to do. With an already deleted roster, his health to the team is more important than his personal accolades.

If he attends anyway, then his action will have spoken louder than his public “team first” comments.

We Shall See

pointguardslim

February 21st, 2012
2:22 pm

Chris is it really that taboo to speak about making Josh Smith our Luol Deng, the small forward of the team.

Josh Smith is more like Deng than Marvin Williams will ever be. Its time to give it up for a physical lineup. I nominate Ivan as a stop gap starter to move Smith over to that Luol Deng role.

pg Jeff Teague
sg Joe Johnson
sf Josh Smith
pf Ivan Johnson
c Zaza Pachulia

DREABABY

February 21st, 2012
2:23 pm

I see nothing wrong with what he said.He put it all in a nutshell.I would have been happier,had he called out the guilty parties,including himself.I don’t blame Joe as much as the others. Teams are starting to crowd Joe,and he is struggling to find his rhythm.If some of his teammates,had enough brain cells,they could benefit from the double and triple teams,that J.J. has been drawing.The guilty players are Josh Smith,to many jumpers,foolish turnovers.Jeff Teague,clueless,terrible defender,missing to many paint shots.Kirk Hinrich,plays good defense,but over dribbles too often,and rarely passes the ball.Marvin,well hes just being himself.Oh and lets not forget,this team is going no where with L.D. in charge.

J.J.M.

February 21st, 2012
2:27 pm

No joe you are too soft and quiet for the nba. you rather lay around and count the pair of jordans you have rather than show heart on the court

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
2:29 pm

LD has lost the team … is to the one
-as-
MC has lost the blog … is to the other

Huh ?

Brandon

February 21st, 2012
2:29 pm

Shut up Joe Johnson, you are a loser and always will be, just retire and enjoy your big piles of money.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
2:30 pm

Well, Flip had a career year playing behind and with Joe. Jamal came in a Joe watched the SG become the SMOY playing behind and with him. WIllie has gotten off to a great start behind and with Joe. 3 different players and Joe hasn’t said or done anything that would suggest that he is uncomfortable with their presence or potential competition at the SG slot. So, I’m kind of thinking that Joe is sincere in saying and believing that they should all be about winning.

I’m still trying to find out when marvin alledgedly made those comments. Was it before or after the funeral? Something stinks… dude leaves the team to attend a funeral and the next thing you know, he is balking for the first time in his career about his usage with the team. No quotes. No sources. Just an allegation that coincides with dude going to a family funeral. Did he whisper his concerns during a graveside ceremony? Did he say “I wish that family member could have watched me get 12 shots/game before they died”? Sorry, but I think something smells like a rotten can of sardines here.

Back to Joe’s comments, it is pretty clear where those comments are directed. Just consider the quotes from this season.

honest_abe

February 21st, 2012
2:32 pm

stretch – i’ve been a broken record on josh for the last 4 years. sometime’s i think i’m just copying and pasting from previous blogs.

woody wasn’t scared to tangle with josh. he wasn’t scared to let him know who’s boss. ld goes ahead and makes him a captain. wtf? there isn’t a coach in america that would sit idly by and let josh continue to shoot jumper after jumper. it’s gotten so bad that josh could care less what anyone else thinks he’s hell bent to prove he can take and make that shot. i understand what josh is thinking make a few of those jumpers, draw out the bigger defender and then take him off the dribble. there’s one problem with that scenario, josh’s jumper is offensive. he more than anyone else on the team needs to understand his role.

1. take less shots.
2. scrap for o-rebounds/set hard picks/and dive to the basket
3. fill the wings on the fast break
4. stop trying to make the home run pass and instead just make the necessary one.
5. focus on rebounding, defending and running with a passion and he’ll be a perennial all star. easy.

steven a smith

February 21st, 2012
2:33 pm

Amnesty Joe Johnson as soon as possible and start over. He can not be your leader on a championship team….

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
2:33 pm

Sautee

My sentiments exactly @ 2:04 pm

Well said;;my friend

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
2:35 pm

northcyde

-from earlier this morning-

We cannot trade our 2012 1st round pick / Stepien Rule.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
2:37 pm

And I’ll go one further (for all of the Teague lovers out there), I think Joe is sticking up for Teague in these comments. I think he recognizes that a scoring Teague makes the team much better than the wannabe-pass-first-PG who has looked amazingly pedestrian the past few games. I think Joe is saying “let the young PG look for his shot” without anyone breathing down his neck about it. I think the players who are concerned about who is shooting aren’t concerned about Joe shooting, they are more likely concerned about the PG shooting. Meanwhile, this PG loses a goodly portion of his effectiveness if he isn’t in full attack mode.

J.J.M.

February 21st, 2012
2:37 pm

BTW this is a sign of a team that has fell apart

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
2:45 pm

Sautee, I honestly think Joe is saying, “let Teague score and don;t worry that his position is PG”. I think that is the coming together of the “don’t worry who scores” and “let playmakers do their thing” comment. So while he thinks they shouldn’t care who shoots, I don’t think that he is advocating for Zaza to double his shot attempts. :)

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
2:46 pm

This team is toast

:even Stack rolled out ol’ ‘`trusty`’ -the- ‘`trust`’ card:

‘`Guys are probably a little banged up,
a little tired.
With all that, the * trust * wanes a little bit`’

honest_abe

February 21st, 2012
2:46 pm

on the bright side we get to hear bob rathbun throw out some more jeremy lin puns tomorrow night. can’t wait!

Sautee

February 21st, 2012
2:51 pm

AJ,

You may be right, but that doesn’t make it any less contradictory.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
2:52 pm

abe, i was thinking that in the middle of our team dysfunction, we get to play the Knicks. I don’t think Carmelo has won a game in a long, long time. And folk want to trade for that guy. Denver has been better without him and even the Knicks have been better without him.

O'Brien

February 21st, 2012
2:52 pm

FTPB;

From Hoopinion;

The head coach: The Hawks are 5th in the NBA in future committed salaries at over $244 million. To manage that quarter-billion dollar investment in personnel, the Hawks hired a coach with no previous NBA head coaching experience. He looks as in-over-his-head as you would imagine he would be.

Since Lenny Wilkens retired, the Hawks have employed Lon Kruger, Terry Stotts, Mike Woodson and Larry Drew as head coaches. Once Drew is let go by the Hawks, it’s hard to imagine that any head coach the organization has employed since 2000-2001 will be in any demand whatsoever by other NBA teams seeking to fill head coaching positions. 1/10

A thought regarding the opposition: With 3:42 to play in the third quarter, Tom Thibodeau angrily called timeout after a Zaza Pachulia run-out layup. As Thibs shouted at his team on the sideline, the scoreboard showed his team ahead by 19..

Doc and I were big fans on Thibs, but 1) He probably had no interest in coming here and 2) Even if he did, ASG would not pay him the salary he deserves. So they hired LD, probably the lowest paid coach in the League.

Vladimir Radmanovic: With Pargo as the evening’s designated streak shooter, Radmanovic took the night off, shooting 0-for-5 and going scoreless in 12 minutes, although he did collect 5 rebounds. The Hawks are 1-7 in the month of February in games in which Radmanovic plays at least 10 minutes. Two of the Hawks three wins this month came as Vlad averaged 3 minutes against Orlando and Indiana. 1/10

Ivan Johnson: During a stretch of 4 games from Jan. 29th through Feb. 4th, Ivan averaged 23.5 minutes, 9.5 points and almost 8 rebounds per game playing primarily as backup center. During that stretch, the Hawks out-rebounded 3 of 4 opponents. In the 7 games that followed, Ivan averaged 8 minutes, 3 points and 2 rebounds. In those 7 games, the Hawks were out-rebounded by 6 opponents. Against Chicago, Ivan played 2 minutes and the Hawks were out-rebounded 51-41. Grade: Incomplete.

Zaza and Josh need to call out LD. Why is Vlad getting so many minutes, with Dampier and Ivan getting so few?

The Truth

February 21st, 2012
2:55 pm

“dude leaves the team to attend a funeral and the next thing you know, he is balking for the first time in his career about his usage with the team. No quotes. No sources. Just an allegation that coincides with dude going to a family funeral.” AJ

I wondered the same thing. What’s worse, it is spinning as if it was fact. I know the haters are in hog heaven with this story despite the fact the man is recovering from a family loss. I doubt the man was in that frame of mind at the time. Lol, did the source attend the funeral too and Marvin blurted that out while he was grieving?

I’m trying to imagine. It just doesn’t seem natural

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
2:56 pm

AJ

For a team that has used the word ‘`Trust`’
while being interviewed;
8,316 times in the last 4 years;
I do not think this is about Joe saying this or that
about hither or yon.

This team does not like one another.
This group has been together to long.
This team has no chemistry;;;furthermore;;;never has.

Not only do they not like one another …..
they cannot stand the sight of each other.
They do not play for their teammates.
They don’t even play for themselves.
***** They Don’t Even Have Any Pride In Their work As professionals !!!!!

They are painful to watch.

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
2:57 pm

Sautee, I tend to ignore the grammar usage and sentence structure of athletes and bloggers… irregardless (pun intended) of my fondness for quality writing. :)

Section 303

February 21st, 2012
3:00 pm

No Joe Johnson for the next two games….yikes! Josh Smith the stage is yours….

I will give Barkley this…when he went on his 3 hour, agenda spewing, broadcast of the first Hawks/Heat game at Philips, he made a comment about not understanding how a group that has been together for so long, still needed a coach to tell them where to go/what to do. He has a point there. I have to concede that. Every year we have situations like this where Joe or some other player talks about guys being confused about their role. Do not understand why this is a problem.

I think we will see two more defeats before the break. Knicks will be coming off two losses and the Magic are more healthy. Not good….

Grandad

February 21st, 2012
3:01 pm

*[too]* long // not // to long // what a doofus // with to oo’s

Astro Joe

February 21st, 2012
3:01 pm

Grandad, I once had the privilege of talking to a former Hawks beat writer who told me that the Hawks players actually get along VERY well off the court. That, he said, was one of the reasons their on-court meltdowns are so perplexing. Something happens when they step on the floor that is very different than when they are not playing. I used to think the same as you, they bottom line don;t like each other. But I was told differently. Maybe things have changed int he past 2-3 years.

But I do agree, they have been together for far too long. I waxed poetic about it for an entire summer. The Summer of Sameness.