Atlanta Hawks: Lakers 86, Hawks 78

Just fire LD.

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“I don’t know how many layups we missed,” Larry Drew said. “We missed a ton of point-blank shots. We turned the ball over at crucial times, too. Defensively I thought we were pretty much right there on the money but we just couldn’t buy a shot.” LD

Another loss another excuse.

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UNDASTATEMENT.

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I’m ready for a whole new coaching staff. Tyrone Hill as a coach is laughable. David Joerger, lead assistant with the Grizzlies. It’s no coincidence Tony Allen turned to first team all NBA defender once he got to Memphis.

Mike Malone and Brian Shaw round out the short list.

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Ivan Johnson should have played some. Was glad to see Dampier do some good defensively. I watched the game and it was frustrating to see the “barely misses” on so many shots close to the basket. If the Hawks were “on” shooting-wise just a tiny bit, it would have been a road win over L.A. But as Don Meredith once said: “If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a Merry Christmas.”

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MC,

Nice stats which actually corroborate two things: V-Rad is not useless BUT he has also been reasonably well used by LD.

Buddy,

I actually don’t think that V-Rad has been stinking up the joint as you say.

When he comes in blow outs he simply does not make that much of an effort, but when properly deployed with starters on the floor, he has been active with his hands, rebounding a bit and doing far more than I though he would (even blocking shots here and there).

There will be games in which he will not be good on the floor due to match up problems but heck, Marvin is not giving us anything most games.

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No one really thinks this team is gonna make it out of the first round this year after their schedule catches up with them. Lets hope the Braves start hot so we can turn our attention away from the ATL embarrassment knows as the Hawks.

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Just my personal opinion, but I believe the Hawks start to struggle when their Offense if off (which has been a lot lately). It seems when things aren’t going well Offensively, their Defense starts to suffer, and the end result is a loss and/or blowout.

All of those long jumpers feel like turnovers, especially to teams that get out in transition. Not much of a stat guy, but my guess is that a great amount of there post-ups and iso plays result in long jumpers more often than not. It isn’t just Josh taking them, but when the whole team becomes enamored with the jumper, is when things seemingly fall apart. I’m not saying they should give up the jumper completely, but it just seems that when all else fails, they go into overdrive go-go-jumper-mode.

Again, this is why I believe they should run pick-n-rolls. Joe, Jeff, Kirk, T-Mac, Josh, and even Zaza (if he learns how to set a screen properly) can all benefit from this. Joe running picks can reduce the amount of doubles he faces and give Joe more freedom to create for others and himself. Teague’s most noticeable strength (speed) can help further break down interior defenses and he will have more passing options as well. Josh is probably the one who would benefit the most, as pick-n-rolls will put him closer to the basket for a better post game and better offensive rebound/put-back position.

I understand that the Hawks are a jump shooting team, but I believe the Hawks have the tools to be a good and possible great pick-n-roll team.

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By the way, another idiot on the bench:

McMillan is now using Jamal as the back up PG.

Result: ± of – 26 for Jamal in 23 minutes.

Crack indeed.

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AJ, I’ve been saying that for a while. The Hawks would be better off finding a facilitator at the PG position, and starting Teague at the 2, with Joe sliding to the 3. Even if it was someone like Andre Miller getting 7 assists, or Felton. I would actually consider seeing if Portland would take Kirk for Felton’s contract. The fact is there are only 4-5 productive centers in the league, so there are a lot more ways to get better (most involve the subtraction of Marvin’s playing time).

Also, I think LD needs to recognize that Pargo has been playing better than Kirk. Maybe he should make Kirk EARN his playing time, instead of just giving it to him because he’s healthy.

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Nevermind you have to pay for those archives, lol. Imagine that ajc.com charging someone, lol.

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LOL MC didn’t you use Synergy numbers to try to claim that Jamal Crawford played good defense in the playoffs? Try this statistic on for size:

In the month of February, if Vladimir Radmanovic plays more than 10 minutes, the Hawks lose. If he plays fewer than 10 minutes, the Hawks win.

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AJ,

This Teague’s funk and Hinrich’s return as just about as old.

You know that this is true, so stop messing up, OK?

LD has been doing a piss poor work managing the return of Hinrich and has caused us some losses with that and is the direct responsible for Teague’s decaying numbers.

NONETHELESS, Teague has been playing reasonably good D when he is on the floor.

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AJ,

In the last 10 games, Teague is averaging ~11 points and ~3 assists in 28 minutes..

I think it’s a combination of 3 things. 1) Tougher schedule 2) Hinrich’s return 3) Jeff Teague.

The tougher schedule speaks for itself. As for Kirk, he came back 11 games ago, and since that time, Teague’s minutes have been cut. In January, Teague was averaging 34 mpg. This month, it’s down to 29 mpg. With Kirk back, LD has a pattern for handling Teague’s minutes, and the game flow does not dictate it. I think that is throwing Jeff off.

That being said, we need Jeff to play better (he has to finish at the rim too), and get back to averaging 13 and 5 at least.

Marvin is averaging only 1 less point than Teague is 2.5 fewer minutes. So Teague is approaching that same middling territory as the blog’s favorite whipping boy..

I agree that Teague needs to step his game up, but I would not put him in the same sentence with Marvin.

Marvin – #2 pick, 5 years, $38 mil contract, 6 years as a starter, playing SF. Teague – #19 pick, $1.6 mil rookie contract, 1st year as a starter, playing arguably the toughest position on the court. Not even close AJ.

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F’ing Blog Monster…..

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how many point blank layupsps hawks blew. hawks need a playmaker that can facilitate for easy baskets. i like teague he needs to be more aggressive

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No team needs to take more jump shots.

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As for the game last night, once again, JJ fails to score 20 points against a good team, and he has little impact on offense (1-8 from 3). I didn’t see the game, but he might have played good defensively. However, for the amount of money we are paying him, we need him to do more. But at times, he looks so disinterested.

Decent overall game from Josh, but 3-9 on jumpers outside the paint. When will he learn? And whenever some people (northcyde, MC among others) give Marvin props for playing better this year (which he has), he goes out and has one of his “Marvin-esque” flashbacks.

And Teague needs to step his game up too. Also, I still don’t understand LD (his play calling, or his substitutions). I know you want to save your guys, but they may have been able to keep the game closer last night. And if they end up losing tonight, then what’s the point.

That being said, the Suns dominated us in ATL, and it will be the second of a back to back for us. But I think we win tonight, because that’s what the Hawks do. Predictably unpredictable.

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Ob, you can’t compare Marvin and Teague from a contractual bases because they are at different points in their career. What do you think Teague would earn if he weren’t on a rookie contract? Likely around $7-8M is my guess. Draft status is as relevant for a 6 year vet as your college GPA 6 years into the professional world.

The reason I made the comparison is because they are both starters playing comparable minutes. You may choose to view Marvin as someone who has reached his peak vs. Teague who has plenty of room to grow, but when comparing the last 10 games, they have been producing roughly at the same rate.

Oh, and Marvin has the same “minutes played-substitution issue with a bench player problem as Teague. And, IMO, they also share some passive-aggressive-don’t-know-what-role-I-play issues as well.

Ra’mon, I think teague is a natural scorer and more like a Lou WIlliams type than he is a lead guard. I’ve long thought that if he were the designated scorer off the bench, that he would excel (again, much like Lou). And yes, he could still get 28-32 minutes, he would be the Flip/Jamal player but would be far more efficient because he would be attacking the rim and NOT hoisting jumpers from all over the floor. Plus he is a far superior defender than those previous bench scorers.

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O’B, the reason I say Marvin was understandable was because he was compared to most scouts as the next Grant Hill, and Harrington was going into the last year of his deal, in which they knew they weren’t going to re-sign him. At the time, Chris Paul was an undersized PG who had character issues (remember the ACC Tourney incident that went viral immediately), and Deron Williams was a player who was said to be lazy and hard to motivate during workouts and practices in college. In fact, on draft night, Dick Vitale was the ONLY national analyst who stated that the Hawks should’ve taken Chris Paul. The fact remains til this day, the PG is a nice position. But the last team to win a title with an all star point guard the same season was the Pistons with Thomas (Spurs may have done it one season, but I don’t think so) and Magic’s Lakers. If Marvin had become 75-80% of the player that Grant was, the Hawks would’ve been elite. Hindsight is twenty twenty. But on draft night, the selection of Marvin was the least questionable selection the Hawks made out of the BK picks (because Horford’s was controversial because some wanted Noah, Conley, and some wanted to trade it for Stoudemire).

Strengths: Elite level athlete, very quick and agile for a player of his size… Can play any position on the floor effectively.. Never out-worked or out-hustled… Doesn’t take plays off… Gives you everything he has whether it’s a high school playoff game or an AAU event… Excellent form on jumper… NBA range… Very effective when facing the hoop as he has a quick first step and utilizes his jabs and fakes to perfection… Court awareness is that of a vet… Finds teammates from anywhere on the court…An excellent passer from any spot on the floor who possesses great knowledge of the game…. At 6-9 he handles like a guard and has excellent touch out to 17 feet…. Great rebounder because of his size and ability to get off the ground quickly… Big game player… Plays his best in the clutch… A quick leaper who plays well above the rim. Has tremendous potential.

Weaknesses: More of a wing/forward at this point… Doesn’t play well with his back to the basket as he hasn’t developed a go-to post move… Must improve strength as he won’t always be able to rely on his athletic ability at the next level… Is a shot blocker but has trouble defending smaller quicker players…As with all young guys not named LeBron or Carmelo, he struggles with consistency….

That was Marvin’s draft profile. If the Hawks would’ve gotten THAT player stated in the profile, they would’ve gone to at least one title game by now.

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Random thought, Can you guys think about the Portland Trailblazers having Pippen, Steve Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Dale Davis, Bonzi Wells, Shawn Kemp, Jermaine O’Neal, and Zach Randolph all on the SAME team? Whomever was their GM at the time (was it Pritchard?) should be the Hawks GM starting tomorrow! The only thing broke up that team was handcuffs and alcohol.

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#24 is lost out there……..

Josh J is like rolling dice, when he make one its pure luck!!!

Wheres Pargo..He’s playing better than captain Kirk!! Get him in the game Larry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wheres Ivan Larry???????????????????????????????

1-4, 0-5 road trip..The real Hawks!

23rd easiest schedule sure hood winked a bunch of cool-aid drinking Hawks Fans including me…

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2-5 half way into February….

3-10 would be Catastrophic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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One thing Marvin is doing well this season, is rebounding. At one point, he was leading the league in rebounds/48 at the SF position (better than Lebron & G. Wallace & Melo & Deng & Pierce, etc…). Marvin off the bench works for me, its just too bad that we need his salary for another (or other) player(s).

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Hey maybe Lin’s brother could help the HAWKS? Hahahahah…..

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2-11, 3-10= Catastrophic for the month….The real Hawks……………………

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This team only has three guys that have the dawg in em. Josh, Jeff, and Al. The rest of these cats are just the lard.

It’s time to cut the fat off. This team needs a lot of things but an athletic freak at the 3 could push this team over the top. Somebody like Batum would be ideal. I would send Portland Marv and a future first for G. Wallace.

Any who, Duck, Kirk, and Zaza need to be packaged or shipped individually somewhere sooner than later. I knew Rudy Gay would be a better pro than Duck but that damn Shellhead was looking to good for the Hawks to pass up.

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And Chris Kaman scored 27 points last night for Bobcats. Man, we need that guy at center yesterday…

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What year did David Stern change the rules on fouls and defense? Maybe that affected the direction of BK’s draft philosophy. He acquired Speedy Claxton, a veteran known for helping to close games when he played for the champion Spurs in 2003.

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Turning point of the game is when he took Josh out and left Marvin in and marvin could hit a shot to save his life all the while turning the ball over! He left the reserve out there too long this is a trend with Drew he doesnt understand when to put the starters back in even when the bench has played well you still have to understand not to roll with your bench to long especially when you just closed the gap then the other team is slowly pulling away!

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Also, the Hawks need to trade Marvin to Milwaukee for Stephen Jackson. The team needs a player who can get his own shot and mentor Josh on the court during games aka force him off the wing shooting those jumpers. Josh would be a killer with offensive rebounds and tip ins.

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MC can ask Drew why does he continue to sub Hinrich in as PG instead of SG when were playing against quick pgs? And one more question why does he not run ISO plays for Teague spread out floor for him and let him go to work? One more question why does he stick to the same substitution pattern pretty much every game despite how players are playing usually Marvin 1st Jeff Teague 2nd. Games when Teague is having a good game he just takes him out instead of riding hot hand and ices our own players but if Joe is off he lets him continue to play but at the same time ive seen games where JOe was hot and this is where coach would pull Joe earlier than usual. Seem like Drew doesnt like when his players get hot or just doesnt have a good grasp of the flow of the game!

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Josh limited passing skills and lack of real J are momentum busters…
I’m getting tired of his game or lack of improvement…

15.9 ppg is against the 23rd easiest sched.. (Inflated) “nimbers” for real….

Lets see what this team looks like if they had the Lakers sched through the 1st 29 games?(4th hardest sched) . Try 10-19? Yep…

P-R-E-T-E-N-D-E-R-S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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I got access to free tickets and i aint going…..

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“Joe said. “I missed a lot of easy shots for myself. I feel I could have made a lot more plays getting guys wide open shots.”

No Joe, we need you to be the scorer. Not create open jumpshots for Josh, Marvin and ZaZa to brick. I will exclude Teague b/c he’s been shooting it pretty well from 3 and rarely shoot jumpshots. We need 20 -25 pts from Joe every night and especially against the good teams. The Hawks do not have another guy that has the scoring ablilty of Joe. Joe needs to step it up and the Hawks need to acquire another scorer (JR Smith).

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There has to be trust to run the pick and roll..Josh and Coach dont trust, that’s why they never run the famous play…

Also you have to have a skilled offensive player( RUDY GAY) type who can stop and pop, use angles(Glass), has great handles…Josh fits none of that..Neither does Marvin…

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AJ,

some folk don’t want to even acknowledge that before the 2005 draft class, there were very, very, very few scoring PGs in the league in the mode of Deron or CP3. They ushered in a new era, one that several GMs weren’t ready to accept. Jason Kidd was the elite PG at that time and no one was thinking those guys had the combination of size, court vision and leadership of Kidd.

Prior to that draft, Steve Nash and Jason Kidd were both putting up 15+ points, 7+ assists for their respective teams. In college, CP3 averaged 15 pts, 6 assists, and Deron was averaging 12 and 6.

BK might not have been ready to accept these new PG,s, but other GM’s were, because 3 PGs were still taken in the top 5 (Deron, CP3 and Felton). Nobody knew CP3 and Deron would develop like they did, but PG was still an important position on the team (unless you had established stars, which the Hawks didn’t have at the time).

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AJ, that is so true. Because in the way they view D. Rose now, Iverson would’ve retired as a PG and not a SG. If you think about it, Marbury was the closest to Williams, and even a better scorer. But every time Marbury left a team, the PG they brought in afterwards always did better (Terrell Brandon – Minnesota, Jason Kidd- New Jersey, Steve Nash- Phoenix). The fact remains Phil Jackson has won 11 titles without a top notch point guard.

Aside from Marvin, the one lottery pick the Hawks had that I thought would breakthrough was Demarr Johnson. I thought Johnson would be the next Pippen. But after the accident, was never the same.

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You cant run pick and rolls with our front line..They are incapable….

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I’ll be honest guys, Joe could get 30 points any night that he wants to. The problem is, the team wouldn’t win if he did it. It would be nothing for Joe to go out and shoot 20-25 shots a game. Even though the coach calls ISO a lot. We rarely see Joe REALLY force the issue like other number one options (’Nique). The fact is that Joe is such a great TEAM basketball player, that he makes the correct pass even when others would force the issue.

O’B, its at http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Paul-14/ . Paul’s long list of weaknesses, much longer than Marvin’s at the time.

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OB, 15 points would be a down year for guys like Paul, Deron, Rose, Westbrook, Rondo, etc. Those guys would be contemplating retirement if they were putting up 15 a game in the prime of their career.

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Ra’mon,

“The fact remains Phil Jackson has won 11 titles without a top notch point guard.”

You can credit that to two things:

a) Tex Winter’s triangle offense; and
b) absolutely superior talent (MJ-Pippen / Kobe-Shaq / Kobe-Pau);

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heat check, I thought it hit Barnes….regardless, bigger point was that Teague could have attacked the rim, but bailed. I took that as a bad sign. Starting to expect great things from Teague. He did not come through on that play at all.

Listened to Bill Simmons’ podcast with Bob Ryan on the way to work today. Ryan went on a one minute rant about how he hates the Hawks.

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heat check, blog is herky-jerky for me too. I figured it was yet another penalty for being a Hawks fan.

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Fire the hole Hawks franchise this team is garbage if the Hawks had any of the heart that Jeremy Lin has we would at least a little better this crap .

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Yep the Chris Paul thing will always come back and hunt the Hawks Atlanta is cursed sports town .

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If anything, the injury to Horford should actually show us how good the Hawks big three really are! They have to be underrated out of any trio in the league. What other trio has been to the 2nd round 3 straight seasons, and get no respect from national media. And the fact that the Hawks have NO ONE on this roster who can step up when one goes down to contribute even for 3-5 game stretches at a high level out side of those three is crazy. Even Jamal would be hot for 2 games, and cold for 2 games. Every successful playoff team, normally have 5-7 good players you can count on night in and night out. The Hawks have THREE! That is management fault, not the players.

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If I were Drew, I would fine anyone who brought the ball up the court not named Jeff Teague 10,000 for each offense. I would run the offense through him. Smith and Johnson need to be finishing at the basket, not dribbling the ball…and Johnson, don’t get me started. As long as the Hawks offsnse is isolation with Joe and a 20 foot falling down shot with 2 seconds on the shot clock, the Hawks will be no better than they are now. Until the headcoach runs the team and Smith and Johnson get with the program, what you see is what they are…

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our problem (main problem) is we cant put up enough points against these superior teams, the good teams limit joe to about 15 pts and if joe cant put up 20+ we are dead. josh will get 15 and teague might get 15 but we need another scorer. before the season we had a golden oppurtunity to get monta ellis for al horford. if our starting lineup was teague monta joe josh zaza we could put up 100 a game and teams wouldnt be able to focus on joe cuz teague and monta would be gettin to the paint at will. marvin only was good from 3 during that earlh road stretch cuz teams were so focused on joe and marvin got way open looks. if we dont make any trades like moving kirk or marvin, we need to go with teague kirk joe josh zaza, move marvin to the bench and let willie get kirk and kirk get teague and split tmac and marv at 3, no more time for vlad and give ivan PF mins and marv a few PF mins as long as zaza or damp is in at 5.
im starting to wish we were a lottery team than a team stuck in mediocrity. if u asked me in the early 2000s if making the playoffs 5 years in a row would be in our future id be so happy but its really just a mirage because really its by default and we have no chance of doing anything once we get in. we need to shake things up in the offseason and trade AL.

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Melvin, a one loss sample? Really, we’re supposed to draw conclusions after every game? No thanks, but feel free to wax poetic with a single data point.

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the point on marvin is that he couldn’t even start in college. if a guy can’t start in college (i don’t care how many seniors were on that team) he doesn’t deserve to be a freaking #2 overall pick. a “can’t miss” talent starts their freshmen year. besides his stats were sub par. he played against collegiate 2nd stringers. just awful. marvin isn’t nearly as bad as some paint him to be i just don’t see the justification for somehow seeing him as a future super star. he’s always been clumsy.

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Astro,

Comeon, there’s a connection between Hawks losses and when their Alpha Dog don’t score at least 20pts?

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We need some tough reporters in Hawks locker room asking tough ? ATL is consider soft when it come to reporters.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Melvin, I agree. I just think that the Hawks need to find a way to win when he doesn’t score 20, right? I’m not sure that we can expect Joe to score 20 when he is the single focus of very good defensive clubs. Seemingly, that focus should allow others to pick up the slack… kind of like if a WR is doubled on one side of the field, the other receiver should be doing more than usual.

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honest_abe,

Give Marvin’s agent credit, he over inflated Marvin abilities. Marvin reminds me of a NFL prospect that runs a great 40 yard dash or bench press 225 over 30 times at the combine. Scouts see that and think that player will excel at the pro level. Then coin that player as having “great upside” so he’s then drafted on potential instead of college production and game tape. Marvin is that type of guy. Marvin probably excels during individual workouts with his smooth jump shot, decent lateral quickness/ball handling and good leaping ability for a guy his size. Therefore, he was label as the guy with the most upside in his draft class once he develops. Now we all know the cons of these types of workouts. Had Marvin workout against other prospects, the hawks should have seen his clumsiness, weak handles and lack of ability to create his own shots. Then just maybe they would have chosen Paul or Deron.

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Where’s Big Ray, doc and DrMaryB when you need them? BTW, doc, has my man J-CRIT gotten any jail time for the thuggery he pulled on the left coast?

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Joe,

I know there will be games when Joe doesn’t have it but it has been too many games against quality opponents when he fells to score 20 or more. Heck, which top scorer on their team doesn’t get double team or single focus by the opposing team. DRose, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, Dwight and many others all face double teams and still score their avg on a nightly basis. No exception will be given to Joe, especially when he’s the highest paid player on the team.

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I would like for coach LD make line up change and move Josh to the 3, so the Hawks can starte having some advantage on the court specially at the 3 with josh getting the ball down low against guys much smaller than him.

STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, IVAN, ZAZA

BENCH PARGO, GREEN, TMAC, MARVIN, DAMPIER

RESERVE HINRICH, VLAD, STACK

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ra’mon

“O’B, its at http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Paul-14/ . Paul’s long list of weaknesses, much longer than Marvin’s at the time.”

There was no long list of weaknesses listed for Chris Paul. The many things the listed were all things that any NBA scout should be able to decipher.

1. He was undersized (So was Allen Iverson, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash, Tony Parker…..)

2. He was not a great defender (Neither were the guys listed above)

3. He might take a cheap shot. (So what!!!!)

It also said this:

Paul is generally considered the number one point guard in the 2005 draft, and it isn’t too hard to see why. There really isn’t anything he doesn’t do well, and his ability to break people down off the dribble is nothing short of spectacular. Unless something drastic happens, he’s a top selection on draft night – probably top 3.

While Marvin’s said this:

“Offensively, Marvin has only shown that he can score in one of four ways: open stand still jumpshots, lay-ups / dunks on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws. Marvin hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If Marvin is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game. Also, Marvin has shown no post moves outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When surrounded by defenders in the paint Marvin often gets his shot blocked because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move. In fact, Marvin’s best offensive move in the paint is trying to get to the free throw line. He will not be able to draw fouls easily against more experienced defenders. If Marvin is going to be a great power forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game.

Defensively, Marvin still needs to improve his footwork to be able to guard quicker players on the perimeter and he needs to add some strength to guard some of the stronger players in the post. He also needs to improve his defensive communication, especially on pick and roll situations. While Marvin has the tools to be a good shotblocker we have yet to see it from him. Per minutes played, he was only equal to Jawad Williams and slightly behind Rashad McCants in this aspect of the game.

Here might lay the biggest question mark with Marvin. While his versatility can viewed as a strength, the fact he is still a bit of a tweener can not. Is he going to primarily play small forward or power forward in the NBA? Can he become great at one of the forward spots or will he merely be good at both? That’s the tough part about Marvin. At this point in his career it’s almost impossible to project just what kind of player he is going to be or what position he will end up playing the most.”

Any scout worth a grain of salt should have really questioned a guy his size, with his wingspan who had no postgame, and also could not handle the ball. The scouting report was dead on, as Marvin is the exact same player today, as he was then. He can hit a jumpshot, make a dunk (if he does not fall first), get to the line, or get a put back. That’s it. He has not become strong enough to play the 4, and he can’t defend either. IT WAS A TERRIBLE PICK.

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Melvin:

Sorry, I thought The fab four were all in place before he arrived.

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Joe Johnson is the only guy on the team that can score from anywhere on the court on any given day. The hawks problem in my opinion is that they dont get the C in the paint early enough. It’s not like we’re stuck with Joel Anthony at the C. I think that we can get a bucket or a foul inside with Zaza. There’s no reason whey he shouldn’t be able to do it sooner rather than later.

Joe and Teague can get their own points very easily throughout the game. That’s why I think that Joe should be the #3 scoring option behind Zaza and Josh during early possessions. I think that a big reason that the hawks need Joe to survive so much is because they depend so much on defensive minded player Josh Smith to get to the paint/break and he ends up running out of ideas by the time the half is over. I’d rather have Zaza and Josh working early because it gives Marvin less attention and less pressure because the hawks would have used a bigger variety of sets and they can fall back on Joe to get to his own outside the offense if things are not working out.

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great commentary from Ra’mon.. Rod, Melvin, and Stro Joe.. all good points.

“Melvin, I agree. I just think that the Hawks need to find a way to win when he doesn’t score 20, right? I’m not sure that we can expect Joe to score 20 when he is the single focus of very good defensive clubs. Seemingly, that focus should allow others to pick up the slack… kind of like if a WR is doubled on one side of the field, the other receiver should be doing more than usual.”

i think the bottom line is Joe needs to be more aggressive. when teams send that double or phantom double at Joe they’ve won. there is a reason why coaches vote him an all star. they know he will make the correct basketball play, which takes shots away from your best scorer. Joe has to simply play quicker, make your move upon receiving the ball. whenever Joe is aggressive, you never see the Hawks playing w/ little effort. they still feed off of their “leader”, as Josh calls him, going out and competing on offense.

“My main focus right now is for us to try to get the rest of these games on the road.” we’ll see what that means to Joe.. going out there and being a non factor, or forcing the issue.

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Already looking forward to the draft. For argument’s sake the hawks make the playoffs and get the 18th pick…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34GQdy-WD54

Not the big we need but the burden of Duck will start to fadeaway.

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If Joe would take his shots or drive to the basket off of passes he would have it much easier. Some thing in his head makes him think that he is superman. He tries to go iso all of the time dribbling like a fool eating up cloak winding up having 3people on him then having to force poor shots or passing the ball to someone like Josh on the perimeter with time running out .I had hoped that with JT starting he wouldn’t do that.it’s like he can’t help himself.He hurts him self & the team.Josh looks at this & then he tries to do it,thinking this the only way he will get his shots.it’s hard for a ROOKIE like JT to come &run the offense. People say look at Jeff he don’t get enough assists.I don’t know how many assists guys like zaza & Marvin take away from him with their weak hands.JT looks to pass first ,LD put that into his head. It is hard for any pg when you have a guy like JJ trying to run the offense.LD just let’s everybody do what they want but is always threatening to take JT’ min away.

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Okay richbrave what player would you draft Crime dog or Marvin ?

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richie, prob in pre-trial proceedings.

wiz suffering? seems like days of old here in atl though plenty of suffering here and many more contributors to the suffering. as slim pointed out 4 egregious bk/basg blunders only if one had been done right we would be a better and more stable franchise.

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Fire LD now!

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Chris Paul and Deron Williams had zero chance of being what they are today if they were drafted by the Hawks. Mike Woodson never ran away from that Iso heavy offense when Acie Law was here. same thing happened with Bibby who by the way watched his assist totals drop. All Bibby did most of the time was direct traffic and provide spacing under Mike Woodson. The real mistake was walking out of the 2004 draft without a C and I’m sure the initial plan regardless of what anyone says involved Dwight Howard. The Hawks probably settled for Childres when Dwight was off the board because the best center after him turns out to be Biedrins.

Chris Paul and Deron Williams would have had nothing to offer the Hawks because the system would never have let them showcase all their abilities.

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This is something that NBA teams will probably look into, though it’s hard to see a team passing on Paul because of personality issues. He is too dynamic a presence on the floor.
Outlook
Paul is generally considered the number one point guard in the 2005 draft, and it isn’t too hard to see why. There really isn’t anything he doesn’t do well, and his ability to break people down off the dribble is nothing short of spectacular. Unless something drastic happens, he’s a top selection on draft night – probably top 3.

Comments
While we have Tony Parker down here as a worst-case, that probably isn’t very fair to Parker, who would put up bigger numbers if he wasn’t running the show in San Antonio.

From DraftExpress.com
—-

Also in his weaknesses is that he’s 6′0. He’s actually 6′1 in shoes. Also, for that Hodge incident, his weaknesses is listed as “too competitive”.

All I can say is “very sad”.

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“Chris Paul and Deron Williams would have had nothing to offer the Hawks because the system would never have let them showcase all their abilities”

absurd. those are two great pg’s regardless of system or coach.

aj: i like your idea of teague coming off the bench. makes a whole lot of sense to me. he obviously can’t dominate the ball with the first team so let him run things with the second unit.

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Rod,

Co-sign. Are there any ‘star’ NBA players that did not start for their college team? And the fact that Marvin was cool coming off the bench in college suggested to me (fair or not) that he does not have the drive/mentality needed to be a star.

And we can see it in his game to this day, where he is quick to defer.

And it’s bad enough that BK drafted Marvin #2. But for Rick Sund to turn around and give him 5 years, $38 mil (5th year PLAYER option), without even letting him test the market…Marvin’s agent deserves a pay raise.

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If you’re an opposing head coach and you see a stat like “Hawks are 16-1 when Joe scores more than 20″, what do you and your coaching staff do with that data point? I don’t think you spend too much time developing a scheme to defend Josh and Jeff. I suspect that you get your entire player rotation focused on one guy. And i suspect that the discussion in a few of the TOs during the game will include an evaluation of the player’s execution of the plan to defend Joe. I think it is plausible to argue that Joe matching last year’s scoring average without Horford and Jamal is an actual improvement in his personal play/performance.

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AJ,

JJ could score 20 points against good teams if he knew how to get to the FT line (imo). As for Teague, I agree with you in that he could be bench scorer, because the starters need a guy who can help them get good shots.

Ra’mon,

Teague is too small to start at SG (imo).

Rod,

To me, the big mistake was not letting Jamal go. The mistake was trading away Jordan Crawford. He has the potential to develop into a poor man’s Jamal, and we had him on a rookie contract.

All this could have been avoided if we played Teague with the starters last year, bring Bibby off the bench, and then explore our trade options over the offseason.

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Should we bench JT just to make LD happy.

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Just for looking at our future, NBAdraft.net has us picking….yes a PF….Patric Young – Florida.

That’s exactly the one piece we are missing this year…and a move that would just ignite this fan base to Occupy Philips.

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What do all those Championship teams have in common ? They had legit centers. Bill Russell/Boston,Kareem/Lakers,Duncan/Spurs,Hakeem/Rockets,Shaq/Magic/Lakers,Bosh/Heat,etc.
The Atlanta Hawks have NEVER (Ok they had Moses Malone when he was 50 years old) had a power scoring center. Look back at their history. How does any team go for 50+ years without drafting/signing a power scoring center ? Infruckingcredible !

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If you’re an opposing head coach and you see a stat like “Hawks are 16-1 when Joe scores more than 20″, what do you and your coaching staff do with that data point?-

Astro,

I’m willing to assume that you can apply that logic to most top scorers on their team. You dont think opposing teams don’t scheme to stop/slow down Rose, Durant, Dirk and many others?

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The same reason the Hawks didn’t win in the 70’s with Roundfield,the 80’s & 90’s with Dominique,and now with JJ is they NEVER had a dominant center ! They’ve had good point guards thru the years.

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KevinM, why are you even bothering with those draft sites right now? They have no idea where teams will be picking or who will even declare for the draft between now and then. Who those sites say we will or won’t pick just does not matter.

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start Ivan in Marvin’s spot, you will get more aggressiveness and possibly some post up points in the paint. The is nobody on this them thats will to take the ball to the rack. They are all jump shooters and some of the worst I’ve seen in the NBA. Some of the shots they are missing, H– I can make those.

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Melvin, you named 3 future HOFers. Is there anyone here who believes that Joe is a future HOF? Each of those guys have a top 5 “talent” rather it is speed, shooting or some combination of shooting & size. Joe does not. Does that mean that Joe isn’t a max player? I think he is much better than Deng or Iggy and they both make around $14M (I think). So yes, those guys are targeted but they are harder to stop than Joe. Are you suggesting that Joe doesn’t work hard enough? Exactly what are you asking him to do, take more shots rather he hits them or not? Become a volume shooter in case he gets hot late in the game? Turn into Carmelo and score but do little else to help his team win games?

Oh, and none of those guys have or will enjoy team success without players who can pick up the slack when the opposing team succeeds in suppressing them. Right? KD and Rose have the stats but have the same number of Finals appearances as Teague and Pape Sy.

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If teams played Kobe,Wade,or CP3 like they play the Hawks those guys would drive to the basket and hit layups & dunks. Why can’t JJ,Teague,etc. drive and score when teams double team ?

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Lay down the liquor Astro Joe.

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Dunker, Mavs beat the HEAT in last year’s Finals. Rose was watching in a sports bar with Pape Sy. And Josh Smith complains when the “ball doesn’t move or isn’t shared”, what happens if Joe takes on the personality of Melo, Kobe or “old school TMac”?

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Exactly. Marvin was a 6th man for Carolina and is a 6th man for Hawks. All while CP3 & Deron have become stars.

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Astro,

After that game Joe scored like 30pts (i think against the Bucks), Josh also said it’s great to see our leader, lead like that (or something smiliar) as well.

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I mus degree wiff ya. Hawks needs da Big Man !

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Melvin, sorry, still don’t know what that means. When he shoots against any opponent, it either goes in or it doesn’t. If it doesn’t, then what do you want him to do? And at what point should he pass to the open teammate?

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Marv he suck. He a waste a times. Why dey plays him ?

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I alway pick a roll.

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I’m with you guys. JJ has to be a consistent scorer. Sund needs to be tarred for resigning Marvin. Drew doesn’t know how to rotate his players. Next ?

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Either way guys, what’s hurting the franchise now isn’t the drafting of Marvin Williams or Childress. What is hurting the franchises is the CONTRACTS they gave to MARVIN AND BIBBY (I used to think Zaza too, but when I saw what Kwame got, I shut up. Zaza is a bargain!).You could never blame someone for drafting a prospect like Marvin (Rod, when KG came in the draft he didn’t have a post up game, and neither did Jermaine O’neal. And Marvin was the same age as KG when he was drafted). It wasn’t until the genius Rick Sund tied up more salaries for 3-5 years a piece in Bibby and Marvin, just after he MADE Josh go find an offer on the market. The deal for Bibby ended up costing flexibility and 2 draft picks (last year’s, and Crawford-2). And the contract of Marvin ended up stopping the team from being able to afford a veteran SF (compare Marvin’s salary to Artest’s, Caron’s, Marion’s, Lamar Odom’s). So I don’t blame BK for drafting Marvin. I blame Rick Sund for RE-SIGNING Marvin AFTER Marvin had proven nothing over the first 4 seasons.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coh7JdWtFos

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Point Guard Slim should be coach this team..This dude is amazing!

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JR Smith appears to be headed to Orlando that may not be good news for the Hawks just knowing the Hawks i bet they will not make a move this team is just pathetic its hard to cheer or support it anymore .

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I SAW MARVIN MAKE A BEAUTIFUL MOVE COMING OFF A BASELINE SCREEN AND CURL BOUT 13 FT. FROM THE BASKET. HE RECEIVES THE BALL ELEVATES, LEANS TO HIS LEFT CAUSE HE NERVOUS LIKE A MO-FO OUT THERE AND THROWS UP AN AIR BALL!

THATS MARVIN. THE WORST #2 LOTTERY PICK IN HAWKS DRAFTING HISTORY! BAR NONE!

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THE SUNS BY 25…..

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The best deal I could think of in that scenario would be with the Warriors.

Hawks get:
Monta Ellis
David Lee

Warriors get:
Al Horford
Kirk Hinrich
Marvin Williams

The Warriors would do this because they get an expiring contract, And Marvin’s contract is significant lower than David Lee’s, who movable now with the acquisition of Horford. And they get to find their replacement to Ellis with the contract of Kirk (maybe Deron -moving Curry to the 2).

The Hawks do this deal because they get a great scorer who takes pressure off of Joe against the double teams. And they get a new 6th man for the next 4-5 seasons in Lee who can come behind Josh and Zaza to give you rebounding and scoring in 20-25 minutes per game. Lee is cheaper than Kirk and Marvin combined, while Ellis makes the same amount as Horford. The only Hawk who is up for a contract extension, will be Teague next season. So fill out the rest of the roster with Vet Minimum players and Mid Level.

Teague – Ellis – Joe – Josh – Zaza

Bench – David Lee, Ivan, McGrady, Pargo, Green, Dampier, Collins

That’s a winning roster, and you get other players through the draft this off season.

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Are you Jon Leuer’s father?

pointguardslim – “Leuer, I am your father…..”

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6HUJfbVl7c&feature=related

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O’Brien, than just a straight up deal of Horford for Ellis and 2nd rounder.

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No I’m a guy who sees mismatches. What is the NBA won on? Mismatches. Getting it inside the paint.

Maybe you dont see how many mismatches we would have if we had [Leuer-tall solid P/C shooter]. The # of intangible things that would bring to Josh Smith’s game would literally be like having another Joe Johnson for us, and yes us because Leuer complete Smith’s game. NO JOKE. another Joe Johnson. Think of what Smith is missing in his game (undersized, dont want shooting) and Leuer (OVERized, want shooting) has that. And it makes Smith oversized as well.

Joe Johnson – oversized guard (w/ shooting)
Josh Smith – oversized Forward
Jon Leuer – oversized Forward (w/ shooting)

Joe Josh and Jon. The 3 oversized Js. And Then Teague stirring the drink. Thats why Im so excited for that. Look at all the games we lost and tell me which ones we would have not forced better matchups with JL.

Its simple math/logic to me in my mind but here’s what it looks like when we have a wing on Josh Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgdlgTs0LQQ

Now look at Marvin Williams on that. He BARELY manages to box out the taller Ryan Anderson. Thats why we get killed vs the Lakers. Then Josh uses his size at SF to keep the ball alive weakside.

But since Marvin cant box out Gasol we have Smith play Gasol and Instead of Smith using his athleticism to grab the weakside board we have to rely on Marvin to come weakside for that athletic board play.

Didnt happen yesterday. Marvin is more detrimental to the Hawks at this point.

We would not have lost so many games if we had Leuer to simply force matchups, box out and hit shots.

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Its simple. Hawks dropped the ball when Nawlins was practically trying to give Kaman away a week ago.
JJ is as inconsistent as it gets and Smith offers little on the offensive side and is only effective with weak side defense.
This team is continuing it backward slide down to irrelevance and anything less than blowing this team up would be a travesty

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Oh man this dude Smith.Leuer.Bogut is back…does anyone read his comments anymore?

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Northcyde, the Lakers had one of their worst shooting nights of the season against the Hawks. The Hawks are 10-1 when they score 100 points are more, with the only loss coming to the Heat in the game Bosh never should’ve had a chance to shoot the game tying 3.

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Flash, I’m for it.

By the way guys, I love what I saw from Dampier last night. He’s actually a little more mobile than Collins.

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People keep talking about offense, when the real problem is defense and rebounding.

Jeff Teague 6′1
Joe Johnson 6′8
Marvin Williams 6′8
Josh Smith 6′8
Zaza Pachulia 6′11

Kobe shot poorly yesterday. It was trouble on the big man front. When I got home from class Lakers announcers said the Lakers bigs were just that. Too big for the Hawks. I will watch the game later but Northcyde, u realize both Bynum and Gasol had double doubles

Size worked well on Kobe. So people stop with the small ball. If the team wants to go forward they have to select and start only one of their forwards, Josh and Marvin.

6′2 Jeff * 6′8 Joe*6′8 Josh*6′11 Jon*6′11 Pachulia
Pargo*Marvin*McGrady*Ivan/Vlad*Gooden

This trade (Hinrich – Gooden Leuer) can happen today. And we still have rare chance Horford is coming back for playoffs or as a trade chip come March 1 or out for the year.

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Ramon, n those games we scored 100 points or more, tell me how many games we outrebounded our opponent, and what did they shoot from the field.

Turning the Hawks into Golden State South isn’t going to help us beat elite teams.

And remember, the Hawks had a horrific offensive game, but was still well within striking distance of the Lakers until Drew sat Smith for 9 minutes in the 2nd half.

When we beat Miami, Chicago, Indiana and Orlando, we did it with defense.

When we beat Orlando n the playoffs last year, we did it with defense.

Our only shot in the playoffs is to become an elite defensive team, not an offensive one.

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More importantly, Leuer continues to extend his range out beyond the college three point line. After improving from 29.6% as a sophomore to 39.1% from three point range last season, Leuer has continued to build upon that part of his game. Now taking 4.6 three point attempts per game, he is converting at an extremely efficient 44.8% this season. Leuer wastes little motion on catch and shoots, and does a good job making a quick decision before the defense has time to recover. His ability to translate this part of his game is an absolute key in becoming a contributor at the next level.
——–
Offensively, Marvin has only shown that he can score in one of four ways: open stand still jumpshots, lay-ups / dunks on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws. Marvin hasn’t shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently, whether it’s driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If Marvin is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game. Also, Marvin has shown no post moves outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When surrounded by defenders in the paint Marvin often gets his shot blocked because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move. In fact, Marvin’s best offensive move in the paint is trying to get to the free throw line. He will not be able to draw fouls easily against more experienced defenders. If Marvin is going to be a great power forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game.

Here might lay the biggest question mark with Marvin. While his versatility can viewed as a strength, the fact he is still a bit of a tweener can not.

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Northcyde, do you realize that the Lakers only out rebounded the Hawks by FIVE rebounds last night, although they had 2 seven footers and Troy Murphy. And the Lakers were shooting 36% for the game before LD took Josh out of the game in the 3rd quarter. I’m not saying that the Hawks can’t use another defensive big, because they can. But there’s not one available right now. So in the meantime, improve your lineup by replacing someone more productive than Marvin.

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northcyde.

“People keep talking about offense, when the real problem is defense and rebounding. If the Hawks consistently did these two things, we could’ve won some of these games. When you’re limited offensively, you must play great defense to fuel the offense. This is why Chicago is one of the best teams in the league, even without Derrick Rose.”

The problem is not defense. The Lakers only scored 86 points. What should they have scored, in the 70’s (LOL). We are 5th in the league in point allowed. The Hawks play sound defense now, without Bibby. The problem is offense. You can not score 10 points in the 3rd and expect to win the game. Most games we have lost this year, is because we have major scoring droughts for a whole quarter of half. Maybe if you watched the games, and stopped looking at fantasy stats, you would understand this. Rebounding is a problem, and we all know that, but thats to be expected when you leading rebounder goes down for the season. If Drew used common sense, and wanted to help rebounding, he would move Josh to the 3 and start Ivan at the 4, benching your guy (Marvin Williams), but we know you would not agree with that.

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We got to score the ball or else fail……………..

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Northcyde,

We have given up a lot of points in some of our losses (105 to the Spurs, 107 to Miami etc). But we’ve also lost games where the other team didn’t score that much.

Chicago scored 76, and we lost. Philly scored 90, and we lost. Lakers scored 86, and we lost. Even with better defense, we need to be able to score. But between LD and the players that we have, our offense is very inconsistent. But LD is offensive minded, and I think the players follow his lead.

And that’s what I like about Chicago. A lot of their players are not known for defense, but they have all bought into the HC’s system.

As for the hawks playing defense and rebounding, Zaza, Josh and Marvin can only do so much on the boards. It would help if Josh would stop taking so many jumpers, so he could be in position to rebound some misses. And we need JJ to help out as well.

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“Plays summer ball for Rotary Select, an Adidas sponsored AAU team. Having establishing himself as one of the elite players in the country. Had a huge 34 point performance against Josh Smith and the Champion Atlanta Celtics in the Big Time Tourney last Summer.”

First of all Ra’mon, have you ever been to an AAU game, or watch AAU ball? You do realize who else was on Josh’s AAU team dont you? Dwight Howard and Randolph Morris were on that team. Did Marvin dunk over Dwight? Did he tricky dribble past Josh, go to the hole, and do a 360 windmill dunk on Dwight? Did he score all of his points with Josh Smith covering him? You do know that AAU is like summer league. Teams are stacked, little defense is played, and guys routinely score 40 points in a game. Really should not read much into that. A summer league game which Josh was a junior does not have any scouts thinking Marvin should be drafted #2 (LOL). After all Josh was not drafted that high remember. You did notice it said Josh Smith and the CHAMPION Atlanta Celtics. So based on your logic, I should assume that Josh is an NBA CHAMPION since his AAU was a champion.

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“More importantly, Leuer continues to extend his range out beyond the college three point line. After improving from 29.6% as a sophomore to 39.1% from three point range last season, Leuer has continued to build upon that part of his game. Now taking 4.6 three point attempts per game, he is converting at an extremely efficient 44.8% this season. Leuer wastes little motion on catch and shoots, and does a good job making a quick decision before the defense has time to recover. His ability to translate this part of his game is an absolute key in becoming a contributor at the next level.”

LMFAO. Leuer has taken a whopping FIVE three point shots. Is THAT a “stretch forward”?

And this guy wants us to trade for him and make him a starter based on what, 345 minutes of NBA game time? And let’s not forget his Draft Express profile. Why that’s worth giving him a starter’s job all by itself!

GFOH with that junk. Come back when he’s an actual contributor.

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Joe in the 3-point contest? Bad idea. Josh would be far more entertaining in that contest.

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What 2 players would Orlando want for Dwight Howard??
I see 3 or 4 players,along with a 1st rounder or 2..
Maybe a Horford (if healthy)along with Josh..And thats it..
You think they are gonna want Marvin?
Joe Contract Johnson?
Or even LD?
How about if we throw in Twin?They may want him whenever they play us again with Dwight on our team..

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Sautee don’t be an idiot. Leuer doesnt shoot 3s because Milwaukee doesnt have any tweeners like Josh Smith to play inside.

MIL wants Leuer to play inside. ATL wants Smith inside and wants a big man like Leuer outside.

Here’s one of Leuer’s 3s by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW7r0f2mCJU

As if 3s are the only way he can be better than Marvin. Jason Collins took Marvin’s williams place and Smith was shifted to SF for the playoffs.

Wrap this Marvin experiment up. Hes a jumpshooting big man who cant create against anyone and cant defend or rebound against most other big men we see in the playoffs.

Classic underachiever. And the reason is this.
SMALL BALL MATCHUPS COME INTO PLAY

Jason Terry vs Joe Johnson vs Kobe Bryant vs Dwyane Wade
Shawn Marion vs Josh Smith vs Ron Artest vs Lebron James
Dirk Nowitzki vs Marvin Williams vs Pau Gasol vs Chris Bosh

Now if you want to see a STRETCH POWER forward. Check out Leuer’s 9 for 11 performance against the Bulls.

Josh Smith has no jumper and gets locked up by size. Lavoy Allen anyone. Get off your fake high horse Sautee.

small ball Hawks havent won anything.

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pointguardslim,

If Leuer can’t get consistent minutes on a Bucks team that is not very good, what makes you think he deserves minutes on the Hawks team?

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“absurd. those are two great pg’s regardless of system or coach.”

Paul and Williams were allowed to dominate the ball and make plays.It’s that same domination of the ball that they wont win a championship as the MVP of their respective teams. Theyre flashy and their stats look sexy on paper. The real problems come deep in the playoffs when the rotation shortens further and bigs get even more talented. That big play is the reason Kerr, Fisher, and Parker have won multiple championships with the same team. Their teams were designed to play well in the regular season as well as the playoffs. Kerr, Parker and Fisher at least are trusted to run the offense on a fastbreak. That doesn’t happen on a team with Joe Johnson coached by a guy like Woody. There was no system. It was predetermined that Joe was going to dominate the ball and rookies were likely to be benched even when it was clear the system/lack of system didnt make things easier for them. The ball has to be put in their hands before you even talk about how great those two clowns are. Your would be a liar if you can sit there and tell me that you knew all along that Acie Law was going to have a 2 assist average and less then 5PPG average.

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“Get off your fake high horse Sautee.”

Hah. That would imply that I actually CARED about your goofy idea. That’s not one of my faults, though I have plenty. And if I’m such an idiot, I guess I’m in there with Coach Skiles who only chooses to play Jon Leuer 13 minutes / game, but you’d make him a starter. OK, I’ll stay with the idiots.

You’ll get over the Leuer thing, just like you got over the Thabeet thing, and the Jordan Hill thing, and the Bogut thing. These things have a short shelf life with you.

So who follows Leuer in the pointguardslim Pantheon of Stupid Trade Ideas? LMFAO

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Evaluating Our [current] Big Three: 1st in a ‘`3`’ part series:

Part 1. ‘`No-J`’

Josh is over-rated by some on this board who seem to …
“adorer de ballon roller d’or`’ ;
become overly infatuated with a singular player on
-our team-
to the point of adulation.
I like all our guys, but, attempt to see them objectively;
perhaps to a point of becoming jaded.
But, some of you must admit to viewing through ‘`rose colored`’ glasses.
_____________________________________________

Josh:
* the most consistent yet predictably unpredictable, unstable,
contradictory, brilliantly talented, incongruous, irreconcilable,
tempermental, willful, supercilious, illogical, underrated,
overhyped, unselfish, schizophrenic paradoxical player,
who is a genuinely good kid and and teammate;
but would rival my good friend Ditch~Weed for Erraticism.

** I wish LD would move him to the [2] *(on offense)*
Reasoning; I want Josh to play just like Willie Green on Offense.
(moving w/o the ball / catch & shoot)
Think about it.
_____________________________________________

side note:
V-Rad; “should play with starters” … Co-Sign !!
from an earlier post / apologies to whomever;
as I cannot remember who to credit for the post.

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“If you’re an opposing head coach and you see a stat like “Hawks are 16-1 when Joe scores more than 20″, what do you and your coaching staff do with that data point?”

If they are smart, they will disregard that stat because it is useless.

The Hawks are 7-0 when Josh scores 20 points, and 4-2 when Teague scores 20 points. Teams are generally going to succeed when their best players are scoring points.

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Meant 2 seasons

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And if I’m such an idiot, I guess I’m in there with Coach Skiles who only chooses to play Jon Leuer 13 minutes / game, but you’d make him a starter. OK, I’ll stay with the idiots.
———–

Yeah that is idiotic. Josh Smith has a severe problem. Yet by your logic, which seems earily similar to ASG logic you’d pick:
6′8 Josh Smith + 6′8 tweener Mbah a Moute
over
6′8 Josh Smith + 6′11 shooter Jon Leuer

And shame on you for talking about Bogut or Thabeet or Jordan Hill when Pachulia has done a fine job starting.
And double shame on you for neglecting to mention Motiejunas, who would have come along with Jordan Hill and Thabeet’s contracts.

And triple shame on you for not knowing that Thabeet’s expiring, Jordan Hill’s expiring and Motiejunas #20 pick rookie deal would have given us 3 bigs for 1 that is undersized as I said And would have allowed us more room to sign Dwight Howard, Ryan Anderson this year.

Yeah now Horford’s contract is worth $12 million instead of $5 million and we’re paying him for rehab. Marvin has tanked another season and been outplayed by vet minimum Radmanovic And we’re still not getting Dwight.

Yeah keeping Horford instead of 3 for 1 expirings coming into Summer of Dwight was idiotic, resigning Marvin was idiotic, Hinrich is playing idiotic, Keeping Smith at undersized stretch PF is idiotic. keeping Hinrich instead of moving for a 7 foot actual STRETCH PF is idiotic,

questioning over and over why a 7 foot shooter would be so valuable to a team with Josh Smith on it is idiotic. Am I clear to you sautee?

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I would not mind having Ellis and Lee to get rid of Marvin Williams .

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“People keep talking about offense, when the real problem is defense and rebounding.”

The Hawks are 7th in defensive rating, 13th in offensive rating, and 8th in defensive rebounding percentage, although they are in the bottom half of the league in offensive rebounding. Seems to me like the problem is more on O than on D.

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Evaluating Our [current] Big Three: 1st in a ‘`3`’ part series:

Part 2: ‘`JoeJ`’

Joe needs a Big Man.
A Dominant Big Man.
Everybody says Joe needs his Robin
-or-
Joe is Robin – needs a Batman !

I think Joe needs a Dominant Legit 7 Ftr. ! period.
7 ftr could be Batman; Robin [not Lopez] or;
Superman [too easy].

Last eve;
Bynum proved what a Legit, Dominant Big can do !
[ I'll get to Gasol in a min]
Bynum (in My opinion) is better than D.Howard.
For one thing – He’s much bigger (taller).
You put a dominant Big on this team and Joe becomes 50% better.

Now Gasol, he’s obtainable.
He proved last nite that he’s an inside force that we have not had ever.
He would immediately make Joe better.
Remember my definition of greatness.
‘`one who make his teammates better`’ Gasol qualifes.
He made Kobe better.
He helped the Lakers become Champions again.

But, this is about Joe.
Joe is good / not great / never will be.
Not a hall of famer / no way.
Joe is one of the most graceful Big players you will ever see.
Yes he is a very Big guard.
Joe is what he is. He is comfortable;
`’in his own skin`’ to use that cliche; which I hate. – But he is.
Joe is to good – to not use him this year and next.
If someone wants him value for value, then trade him.
-otherwise-
Hold on to him, for this yr & next then use the amnesty clause.
*(just go get him a Legit 7 ftr / named Gasol)
______________________________________________

-side note-
when using amnesty clause
*does not count against lux tax

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Leuer’s mom, if you really want Leuer so bad, the most likely way is if you agree to also trade for Stephen Jackson. I’m pretty sure you can give the Bucks a steaming pile of sh-t for Stephen Jackson and they will be willing to throw Leuer in to the deal. They are not going to trade Gooden when he is their only healthy center.

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Grandad,

“Bynum (in My opinion) is better than D.Howard.”

Remember Grandad to let me know what kind of cannibus you smoke, so if i ever decide to become a smoker, I stay far away from it. Better how? He has better back to the basket moves, but thats about it. Marvin has a better jump shot than Josh, guess what, that don’t make him better than Josh. Bynum can barely stay healthy.

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“Josh Smith has a severe problem. Yet by your logic, which seems earily similar to ASG logic you’d pick:
6′8 Josh Smith + 6′8 tweener Mbah a Moute
over
6′8 Josh Smith + 6′11 shooter Jon Leuer”

By MY logic? I never said ANYTHING about what I thought the Hawks should do. I only said that your “stretch forward” had only attempted 5 threes, even though you posted an entire paragraph on how valuable that skill would be in the NBA.

Listen, I don’t give three half sh!ts about your theory. It’s a straw man argument to claim that “by my logic X” when I don’t even have a dog in your fight. You do a great job of evading the question. (you’re not secretly Astro Joe are you?)

Also, NOW you say that Mbah Moute is a tweener, when just an hour ago you said that the Bucks didn’t have tweeners taking it inside, so that’s why they didn’t have Leuer shooting 3s. You’re all over the map with your arguments, but as we’ve seen, there will be a different flavor by next month.

And about this: “questioning over and over why a 7 foot shooter would be so valuable to a team with Josh Smith on it is idiotic. Am I clear to you sautee?”

Once again, a straw man. I have NEVER said that a 7 footer (which Leuer is NOT BTW) would not be valuable. Just because I’m not convinced that Leuer is the right guy, doesn’t mean that I’m against acquiring a 7 footer. Lame straw man argument.

Is that clear to you Mrs. Leuer?

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What happened to the great zone defense the Hawks were playing in the beginning of the year.I have watched every game and ever since the Chicago game they lost they have abandoned it.Funny because they grabbed a big lead in that game playing zone then went to man to man and the Bulls came back and won.The Hawks have never been the same.Personally I don’t blame Drew or the Hawks.I am convinced that the league wants it’s big market teams to win no matter what happens .When the Hawks were using that zone you could really see their talent.They dominated Miami 2 using that zone and Dallas beat Miami in the finals using the zone d.The Hawks have more talent then Dallas but never use it anymore .It is bigger then all these comments .It’s business and the Hawks cannot make the $ for the league that other teams can so don’t ever expect them to win a Championship.NBA.NFL,NCAA,MLB,etcetc championships are not won.They are bought !!!!!

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“In fairness to Leuer’s mom, Teague was in pretty much the exact same situation the last two years. Can’t completely discount the possibility that Leuer could be a good player if given more minutes”

That’s a good point, Najeh, but was anybody on the blog seriously asking for Teague to start after he’d only played 28 games? If we had seen Leuer for over a year, then maybe ok.

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I actually want to see a Smith for Gasol trade now. Smith has good defense but he shoots us out of the game a lot. I think the Hawks can move Ivan to starting PF and they will still have Smith’s energy and defense. Smith and Williams for Gasol or Smith and Hinrich for Gasol.

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“And if I’m such an idiot, I guess I’m in there with Coach Skiles who only chooses to play Jon Leuer 13 minutes / game, but you’d make him a starter. OK, I’ll stay with the idiots.”

In fairness to Leuer’s mom, Teague was in pretty much the exact same situation the last two years. Can’t completely discount the possibility that Leuer could be a good player if given more minutes.

That said, I don’t see how a jump shooting big man with average defensive ability is going to push this team over the top, and I am still perplexed as to why this most random of all NBA players is continually referenced on this blog.
—————

Well since Najeh put up a coherent argument. Yeah Leuer is average defensively. But hes more solid than say Channing Frye. Who I would love for the team he could play defense. And he’s better man to man than Radmanovic/Marvin.

And he’s blocking shots at 2.0%.

A) shooting B) big man

Rolled in one.

Joe Johnson vs Jared Dudley
Josh Smith crashes inside vs Grant Hill
Jon Leuer vs Channing Frye

Joe Johnson vs Jodie Meeks
Josh Smith crashes inside/post ups vs Iguodala
Jon Leuer vs Lavoy Allen/Spencer Hawes

Smith has trouble scoring and rebounding over size. So does Joe Johnson. These mens window is closing and he’s not dictating matchups. Our window is closing.

“He has the ability to erase a lot of defensive mistakes because of his athleticism. [Josh Smith is]a tough matchup at the 3 as well. You play him at some 3, there is a high probability he is bigger than that three man, stronger than that three man. Certainly the way to take advantage of that matchup is to post him up. We will certainly try to utilize his ability against a smaller guy. It won’t necessarily be about us adjusting to what the other team does. We want to put the opponent in a position where they have to match up with us.”

Thats what the Lakers do. “Put the opponent in a position where they have to match up with us.”

And thats the winning attitude Hawks fans have gotten accustomed to rejecting. We can match up if we shoot 3s! Shoot more 3s! Energy! blah blah blah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuklWpNBhE0

I got another video where Doc Rivers says Smith is having a bad shooting night because the Celtics have needed to double team Josh every play when Pierce is guarding him.

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nc, no problem if marvin is subbed out and vlad in.

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It’s all about the Hawks going big and maintaining floor balance. Josh Smith’s post defense the past 2 games is nonexistent. I showed you Bosh vs Leuer and he was catching the ball at the 3 pt line. He’s a rookie, there’s no secret to Leuer keeping Bosh out the post. There the same height.

You want to tell me size does not matter in explaining why Bosh dominated Josh?

Jeff Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
7′0 big man with range
Pachulia

Vlad Radmanovic is soft and on a vet minimum. But Hawks wanted someone with a quick trigger and hes taking Marvin’s spot.

If the Atlanta Hawks fans are serious about winning a championship its about making Josh Smith the #1 defensive, transition and hustle rebounding small forward in the league… and getting a PF who can shoot and give you size in post defense, because Smith+Marvin just cant do it.

—-
We’ll see if Gooden becomes expendable Najeh but I’d advise against Stephen Jackson his ego and low PER, low WS/48, low athleticism, low rebounding.

If we were 6′11 and physical sure. But the last thing the Hawks need is another “small” forward. And a gunner with an ego.

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All of those players are good role players. But majority of them are on the decline of their careers. I don’t recall you asking for Holiday or Lowry, so I apologize for that. But even out of those players you mentioned, neither have been on a championship team in the NBA. So you take 2 of those players and add them to the Hawks, and I still don’t see how you make it to the Finals. Especially if you’re trading Josh for either of the two of them. I do remember you and I both asking for Battier for the last 3-4 seasons when he was in Houston even. But I still think I recall you asking for a lot more players than you listed, and majority of them being one dimensional players, and not game changers.

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said ✔

and he took it personal.

Hilarious.

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Evaluating Our [current] Big Three: 1st in a ‘`3`’ part series:

Part 3: ‘`Teaguer`’

I’ve long been a Jeff Teague supporter.

To be a Teague supporter;
does not mean one has to *bash Cap’n Kirk.
They can co-exist.
Kirk is and should be a valuable member of this team.

Back to Teaguer.
Lately, He has not been very good.
Here’s, what I see.
Jeff is a natural scorer. – Which can be fine.
Jeff needs to continue to enhance his stong suits
but not neglect his weak points.

Strong suits:
*natural scoring; *defense, in particular steals; speed & quickness.
weakness:
passing, assisting; type A personality, (assertiveness);
being the quarterback (leader / taking charge of the offense)

He actually needs to get in Josh’s face and rip into him;
for trying to be ‘`Magic Johnson`’.

Offensively:
* He needs to drive to score
* He needs to push the ball the way Spud Webb used to do it
* He needs to get the majority of his assts off the fast break
* He needs to Dictate the tempo, Offensive Transition
* He needs to Run the Offense
Defense:
* He simply needs to be the best
* He needs to be Rondo (can be)
* He needs to be the League’s most worrisome Pest

Bottom Line:
I would trade him for Pau Gasol or some pkg to get Gasol.

I do like Jeff Teague.
I think he will always be good but never great.
He will always be as good as he is quick.
____________________________________________

-side note-

Ra`mon;

Yes I was supportive of LD earlier.
Saying;
‘`he was growing into or on the job`’
I stand by that statement.
LD is not losing games.
He is doing the same things he was doing when the
*Players*
were winning games.
Funny, how he is losing the games now.

Is he coaching perfectly ?
Absolutely Not.
Should he be showing more growth ?
Most assuredly.
X’s -&- O’s LD does a fine job.
LD’s largest problem;
Managing his players, as he is not near mean enough.
One must be an Jack-ass to be an effective coach at his level.
I would think.

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The plus side to Josh Smith’s game is either surpassed or nearly canceled out by the negatives. I wish these clowns would stop acting like he’s some superstar. There’s a reason he hasnt been to an all-star game.

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WEDNESDAY NIGHT SCRUB WATCH

(A) Marvin Williams
(B) Jordan Crawford
(C) Jamal Crawford
(D) Jon Leuer

Who will be the “scrub of the night?”

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http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7nhvdxy
I have no idea why would Denver do this trade, but it’d be nice for us if we could pull it off. Maybe with a first round pick?

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No room for Vlad. Jon took his spot.

And Leuer better show up against the Hornets. Bucks are at home, so there should be plenty of minutes for him tonight. Even if it’s garbage time.

Maybe they can use him to guard Kaman.

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R. from C.P.

I almost qualified Bynum and his knee inj.
-But-
I didn’t
I still like Bynum.

I never said one disparaging word about D.Howard.
[I don't think - did I ?]

I just really think Bynum – if he stays hlthy – is a load.

Yes I like him.

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pointguardslim

How old are you ?

Magic was not a [4].

Magic Johnson was a pg.

He was not a powr forward leading the break.

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This guy northcyde is a clown. Only reason Jon Leuer would be good here is Josh Smith and Joe Johnson.
Only reason Marvin looks good is Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. Are you slow? But in your mind Leuer has to dominate for him to prove he can be a 3rd/4th fiddle for us.

Thats like me asking for Ryan Anderson in 2009 because he’s 6′10 and can shoot but then you say he has to drop 30 before we’re interested. And yes Ryan Anderson at one time got beat out by Yi Jianlian on the Nets.

Lol. What exactly does Leuer need to prove? Or maybe we’re waiting to sign Yi lol.

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Lol grandad. If he’s young, he probably does remember Magic playing the 4 when he tried to make a comeback. Magic was every bit of 250 lbs at that time.

Scrub watch has begun. Looking for the Milwaukee scrub to ball tonight.

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northcyde Looking for the Milwaukee scrub to ball tonight?

What the hell does that mean? Marvin Williams/Vlad go stand in a corner. While Josh Joe and Teague create the inside action.

Is Leuer’s role on his team Marvin’s/Vlad’s or Josh Smith? Yeah its Josh Smith. Play inside and make something good happen.

I said he can take Marvins role. Josh stirs the drink, Joe stirs the drink. Thats why Marv was expendable for moving Smith to sf and starting Jason Collins, at the sacrifice of Smith being stuck outside at times.

Stop acting as if Marvin/Vlad and Leuer have to carry the same load.

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Grandad,

“I just really think Bynum – if he stays hlthy – is a load.

Yes I like him.”

I like him too Grandad, but he ain’t better than Dwight Howard.

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Drew says #Hawks F Tracy McGrady won’t play tonight because of 2nd night of back-to-back.

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I really hope you’re joking about McGrady being out.

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Mrs. Leuer,

Speaking of Montiejunas, I noticed that he was shooting a whopping.291% from 3. And that’s with over 3.5 attempts per game. Plus he’s at .578% for his FT.

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Donatas_Motiejunas/International/2314/2012

Any way you look at it, those are Josh-like nimbers. He’s certainly got a leg up on scrub of the night, LOL.

And, by the way, do the Bucks have tweeners going inside, or not? I’m confused by your totally contradictory statements. First you said they had none, and that’s why Leuer wasn’t taking threes.

Then you said that Mbah Moute WAS a tweener, and if you watch the Bucks, you KNOW that you don’t want Mbah Moute outside shooting jumpers. So, which is it?

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Ra’mon

February 15th, 2012
5:50 pm

“Grandad, you were looking through Rose Colored glasses at Alex Ajinca for over 3-4 seasons. Actually, with the exception of Gasol, I don’t remember the last player you suggested the Hawks acquire, who’s been remarkably successful since you recommending them. And almost each of the players you’ve lobbied for, have been offensive players, with out defense being a strength of theirs. In fact, just a couple of weeks ago, you were saying LD is doing a great job this season.”

Grandad couldn’t sneak past Ra’mon filters? Hahahahahahahah

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Orlando up 9 on Philly. If the Hawks lose today, they will probably dip to 3rd in the division, 5th in the conference. A win on the other hand maintains them in 4th and gets them within a game of 3rd in the conference.

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They really shouldn’t need T-Mac to beat the Suns, who are really not that good. Kind of pathetic that they lost to them at home a week ago.

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LD is playing games with mcGrady. He wants more playing time &LD won’t give it to him,so he turns around & tells LD.,I can’t play because my back hurts. He says I can play games also.

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“We can all thank Drew when McGrady leaves us this off season for another team.”

Matt, how do you know it wasn’t T-Mac’s call? Let us know if you know that.

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E43 I agree, think OSH is out of this place after next season…Fresh start somewhere else making a ton more money

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Suns by at least 20 tonight! Ugly loss coming up again….

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6 games above .500 with All NBA!!! And???????????? Crickets………………………………..

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I’m betting GRIFFIN, PAUL and company will take care of business tonight in L.A. CLIPPERS cleaned the WIZZIE’s collectives in the tilt in D.C. the other week.

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Sautee,

How do you know it is not Drew’s fault? Based on MC articles TMac has been wanting more minutes. Also, If TMac was hurting Drew would say that TMac isn’t play because of is back or whatever.

Where are your facts? The only thing we can go by is what we hear.

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#FREEMARCINGORTAT

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Iso Joe is an offense killer dribbling the ball for ever & then taking bad shots or passing the ball to Josh on the perimeter with 3 seconds on the cloak,not really even robin.

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MattP,

I’m not the one making unfounded accusations, remember?

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I predicted 8-5 for this month and 5-3 up to this point. So far they are 3-5 — the two games they lost that I thought they would win were the Philly game and the Phoenix game. If they are going to prove me right they have to win out the rest of the month, starting tonight.

I’ll stand by my prediction. Hawks bounce back and win by 4 tonight.

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Slimjr for sure,LD has no control of this team.

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Rusty, LD was wasn’t a good pick! LOL!

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GAME THREAD STARTS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go Hawks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Is Chris Kaman a Hawk yet ?

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richbrave, Hawks lost their All-Star center for the vast majority of the regular season… yet this blog goes ballistic when the Hawks lose to the Heat. If the Wizards beat us at home, it would ignite a digital riot.

For those paranoid bloggers, LD will likely sub Teague and Marvin somewhere between 3:00 and 4:00 minutes left in the 1st quarter, regardless of the game situation. Don’t take it personally, the head coach seems to believe that the guy needs to rest during actual game time and not just in between quarters.

I would have liked to see TMac and Marvin play toether tonight with Marvin responsible for chasing Frye on the perimeter. Let’s hope Josh doesn’t lose him like he did in Atlanta.

I truly don’t like the idea of Joe in the 3-contest… here’s hoping that he stops using games to practice his 3-balll. Although according to some, game time is the only way to develop your skills.

Go Hawks!

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Former UT Vol

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What is a Leuer ?

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Man, Teague look like Bucky from Fat Albert

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AJ:

Dang. That’s right. I forgot my main man HORFORD went up on the shelf. Well, that would explain it alright. And after such a great start too.

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Game thread is up! MC late by 5 mins!

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Thanx ND

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stay aggressive

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