Atlanta Hawks: They should shoot more 3s
Somewhere over New Mexico–The Hawks have slipped to 10th in offensive efficiency. I think the most realistic way for them to improve the offense is to attempt more 3-pointers.
The Hawks rank second in 3-point percentage (39.1). They rank 18th in 3-point rate (3-pointers attempted/field goals attempted) and are tied for fourth in the percentage of those 3s that are assisted (91.4).
The Hawks rank 19th in field-goal percentage on attempts from 16 to 23 feet (36.3), 3rd in attempts per game from that distance and 16th in the percentage of long 2s that are assisted. The Hawks rank 22nd in field-goal percentage at the rim (61.5), 13th in attempts per game from that distance, 10th in the percentage of baskets at the rim that are assisted and 13th in free-throw rate.
The Hawks have five players who are shooting better than the league average (34.6 percent) on 3s: Jeff Teague (45.3 percent), Marvin Williams (44.8), Willie Green (42.9), Vladimir Radmanovic (39.7), and Joe Johnson (36.9).
Three of those players are shooting well above their career norms on 3-pointers: Teague (career 36.8 percent), Williams(32.7), and Green (32.8). For two of those players there is a possible explanation for their sudden spike in percentage: Teague worked on his stroke all last summer (plus he’s still only , and Williams’ overall game is better since he had back surgery.
So Teague, Marvin, Green, Vlad Rad and Joe should all put up more 3s. Kirk Hinrich should join them. He’s shooting just 31.8 percent on 3-pointers but that’s with only 22 attempts; his career mark is 38 percent.
Considering both their personnel and their proclivities, it seems to me the easiest simplest way for the Hawks to improve their offensive efficiency is for the right guys to shoot more 3s (especially if they shoot more 3s instead of long 2s). I doubt any of my blog people this group has it in them to score more at the basket, earn more free-throw attempts, collect more offensive rebounds or do anything else that could lead to better offense.
But shooting more 3s? The can do that because they are pretty good at creating open attempts and they have several guys who can make them.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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183 comments Add your comment
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
2:52 pm
1st? Been awhile!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
2:52 pm
Don’t know about most realistic, but the best way for them to improve offensive efficiency is to get to the line more often. That would involve more post ups, more Teague dribble penetration, more movement off the ball, and less Joe dribbling around on the perimeter.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
2:52 pm
2nd? Nice………..
Lacsho
February 14th, 2012
2:53 pm
I hope Josh doesn’t read this!!!!!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
2:55 pm
Threes are fine as long as they are a result of good ball movement and taken in rhythm. The problem with relying on them, just like the problem with relying on long 2 point jumpers, is that if you miss, you’re less likely to get the rebound than if you are taking attempts at the rim.
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
2:55 pm
I would really like the see the Hawks go after JR Smith. Hawks need another score and JR can score from any spot on the floor. He attacks the rim and shoot it from 3. We could put Marvin on the bench, Joe at the 3 and JR at the 2. Hawks have their full MLE they could offer him which is more money than the Clippers or Knicks could offer. Either the Hawks sign him so he could help this team or watch him hurt the Hawks b/c it’s reported that the Magic are looking at him…
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
2:55 pm
pointguardslim- from previous blog!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 14th, 2012
2:36 pm
“Why isn’t Leuer getting more playing time on a bad team? Thats a less snide question and a better one.
He isn’t getting playing time because he’s a bit stiff on defense and a perimeter player on offense.
Ilyasova is a bad shooter and a quicker rebounder and Mbah a Moute is lauded as a stellar defender. Thats what Skiles likes.
But why should that matter. You do realize Marvin Williams is so bad for this teams matchups (teams can just switch length onto our stars AND we are undersized on defense) that at one point
Jason Collins took his spot as a starter last year.
We are a team with an unconventional tweener in Josh so you need to counter that.
You said we need someone to post up and throw ball in and maybe get fouled. I said add a stretch POWER player in Jon Leuer.
Joe Johnson 6′8 sg
Josh Smith 6′8 sf
Jon Leuer 7′0 pf (take Gasol away from basket so Joe+Josh can go to work)
Lets say TShooting% and the eye test are right and Leuer would be a 7′0 Ryan Anderson.
Even if he doesnt post up Gasol, I count 2 other options in posting up Joe Johnson vs SGs smaller than him and posting up Josh Smith against SFs his size or smaller SGs.
Thats 2 post up threats and Leuer is automatic if a switch happens. Look at the plays Marvin gets and cant make…rebounding, too short and passes up corner shots, cant get a clean look off the dribble.
Its dumb to ask why Leuer isnt playing in MIL when we have stars in our system that can milk a Ryan Anderson/Leuer type. AND even Worse is that after Miami its hella obvious WE COULD USE THE SIZE AND THE FUNDAMENTALS SHOOTING.
And Marvin isnt that. And never will be. Rather have Josh Smith vs Artest than Smith throwing hook shots over Gasol. Rather have Joe Johnson bullying Kobe in the post than wrestling with Artest.
Meanwhile Kobe will be busting Joe’s rear on the other end and resting on Marvin.
Its a domino effect. Horrible fundamentals and size disadvantage. I predict a loss and Hawks will be Lambs to the slaughter tonight.”
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
2:56 pm
I’m buying pt.guard slim! Marvin has been a huge disappointment…He came to Atlanta with all this hype from Billy “GTFO” Knight!
His inability to step up and be consistent against the winners is killing this teams chances to excel in the post season..Heck within the next 4 weeks they maybe hovering around the .500 mark for real?
Got to shake this house of cards up…
Joe and Josh need help yesterday, especially on the offensive end. New young blood maybe just what the doctor ordered!
Thanks for your dissertation! It was impeccable as always Sir..Welcome back!
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
2:57 pm
This team shoot too many jumpshots already. Attack the rim please…
MattP
February 14th, 2012
2:57 pm
I think they are already shooting alot around the arc, not all are 3 point attempts. The problem is that they need to have the right guys should at the arc, not Smith. They also need more players attack the rim.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
2:57 pm
For what it’s worth, basketball-reference.com’s SRS rating thinks the Hawks are better than the Lakers. Until the loss to the Heat on Sunday, Hollinger’s power rankings agreed.
That said I would put the spread for this game at about 25. The Lakers are the biggest matchup nightmare for the Hawks out of any team in the league, in my opinion. If they just post up Gasol and Bynum the entire game they will shoot about 60%, not to mention as long as those two are playing they will out-rebound the Hawks by at least 20.
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
2:59 pm
MC,
Did you mention awhile back that the Hawks would be interested in JR Smith once he availble to be siged? If so, do you know if they are trying to recruit him now?
MattP
February 14th, 2012
2:59 pm
^Right guys shot at the arc
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
2:59 pm
The Hawks actually have a better record then the Lakers at this point in time..Like that really means anything?
I sense another spanking coming late tonight….Sucks to be a Hawks fan….
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
3:03 pm
Eyeball test from a jumpshooter: Marvin takes an additional 1.5-2 sec to size up the rim/ distance to get his shoot off.. Way too slow…He’s almost afraid to miss the shot so he looks scared out there taking them…
cdog
February 14th, 2012
3:03 pm
jeff teague and za za pachulia is killing the hawks. both are losers. i would like to apologize to kirk hinrich.he and jannero pargo should be the two point guard rotations. teague does stupid things on the court.your point should be a coach on the floor to make others better.teague doesn’t have these qualities.pachulia is lazy and can’t play on either end.balls comes by his head and face but he is too lazy to get his hands up to rebound or too slow of foot.he doesn’t move his feet on defense.i have never heard of guarding with elbows and stationery feet. he’s terrible.finally, if josh smith could think he would be on the allstar team.he’s only effective when he’s inside.i would have a rule not to put the ball in his hands unless he is inside.please coach drew, put teague and pachulia on the bench and start playing pargo if you want to go far in the playoffs.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
3:05 pm
At the college- Pro level you cant hesitate or usually miss the best opportunity to let it rip
jgsbirds
February 14th, 2012
3:07 pm
if i still bet on games–i would bet the ranch on the lakers tonight.
so that probably means the hawks play well.
Michael Cunningham
February 14th, 2012
3:09 pm
@Melvin: “MC, Did you mention awhile back that the Hawks would be interested in JR Smith once he availble to be siged? If so, do you know if they are trying to recruit him now?”
That was before Al’s injury. Since they have so many guards now and it’s past the contract guarantee date, I don’t know if they would still be interested in J.R.”
“This team shoot too many jumpshots already. Attack the rim please…” sounds great. but which do you think is more within the capabilities of this team: attacking the rim, or shooting more 3s?
@MattP: “I think they are already shooting alot around the arc, not all are 3 point attempts.” yeah, that’s the point. more 3s at the percentage they are making them is better than long 2s at the rate they are making them.
MattP
February 14th, 2012
3:12 pm
cdog,
Teague is better than Hinrich right now at point because Hinrich can’t guard fast PG, they blow right past him. Teague doesn’t setup his teammates but he is alot better then Hinrich that can only shoot.at times. Last season we had a bad record when we traded for Hinrich and now this season when Hinrich came back we are starting to look bad. Can you do the math?
Who do you think Drew can give Zaza’s minutes too? We have no one that can play his minutes! Ivan is good at times but has a big size problem.
steve brown
February 14th, 2012
3:13 pm
Watching Hawk players step out of the way as Heat players drove to the hoop was one of the most pathetic things I have ever seen on a basketball court at any level anytime. To talk about anything but their lack of guts, courage and heart is a waste of space. Get me a group of athletes with some pride and respect for the game, nothing else really matters.
Rod from College Park
February 14th, 2012
3:17 pm
Melvin,
You know I agree. This is the Hawks, so what makes common sense won’t happen. This is the thing. If we can’t get a big who is proven, our only other option is to play a perimeter game. Marvin is the worse 3 in the league, so we need to upgrade his position. We really need another guy on the perimeter who can create their own shot, get to the line, and knock down the open shot. JR Smith can do all those things.
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
3:19 pm
MC,
Thanks. I knew that Stackhouse signing was going to come back and haunt us. But seriously, they have a lot of guards but none with the ability of JR. JR is solid starter. They should sign him and waive Stack. And then try to trade Kirk and Marvin..
MattP
February 14th, 2012
3:21 pm
This game is going to be very scary, Bynum and Gosal are going to get just about everything they want down low. Just hope Zaza shows up and Drew plays Dampier more then Ivan this game.
honest_abe
February 14th, 2012
3:21 pm
attacking the rim is a mind set. an attitude. i’ve seen teams that can’t shoot a lick but they made up their mind that they’re going to take it to the rack strong. the hawks are a clumsy finesse team. whenever another team goes on a run nobody can step up draw a foul and get to the line. not even our 100 million dollar man. if the hawks are to improve their efficiency on the offensive end they need an attitude adjustment. it’d also help if teague could run the team like a point instead of always being so damn passive.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
3:23 pm
ED will need to play a lot of minutes for us to stay with them on the glass. I hope he’s up to it.
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
3:27 pm
Rod,
Agreed with your 3:17 post…
STRETCH
February 14th, 2012
3:28 pm
Melvin,
Even if they did try, he would obviously follow K-Mart to the Clippers. And not may guys want to go to a disfunctional organization like the Hawks.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
3:29 pm
How is Josh Smith supposed to get shot attempts vs 7′1 Gasol? I want to post videos of the hook shots that Smith was taking over Bosh and missing.
Too small and easy contests. I want to post the uncontested layups that made Josh look too small and unathletic. He didnt even jump bcuz there was only chance for a foul.
Steve Smith is the only guy that consistently gives Smith credit and calls him a small forward playing out of position.
Josh Smith should be inside. Blah BLah Blah BLah.
6′8 225 Josh Smith vs 7′1 265 Gasol
or
6′8 225 lb Josh Smith vs 6′7265 Artest
Either way he’s giving up 40 lbs. But at least he isn’t giving up a foot of wingspan and height to a future Hall of Famer.
What a waste of talent.
Slimjr…Its not even Marvin hesitating. He’s too slow to be an elite SF and get those shots off.
We have to go to Josh at SF. He could be a Hall of Fame garbageman type scorer but we as ATL fans need to give up the search for a jump shooting SF.
McGrady played SF with Josh and we were bad on defense. We need Smith at the SF. Remember that block on Dwight Howard? That came from behind at SF. Jason Richardson block to send us into the 2nd round?
Small forward.
We need to get over ourselves and realize that Josh Smith is a SMALL forward. He has little to no power in his frame anymore.
If you want to see some power, get some more size to box out and rebound. And let him run in the backcourt with Jeff and Joe and get in transition.
No more botched Marvin layups. Outside of weight, Marvin has the proportions of pf/center Ike Diogu. He’s never going to be a swift shooter. And he’s not strong or tall enough to play inside.
#1 move to improve the Hawks is move Smith to the 3 and get a stretch 4. Until then enjoy watching Smith try to beat the odds.
The last SMALL Forward Smith’s size who won a championship was Dennis Rodman. And he had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen on his team.
Let Josh Smith be our Iguodala and make a trade to move him to SF.
Attacking the rim is a mind set. But getting there is another thing.
Smith – too small and even Spencer Hawes can cut off drive.
Marvin – too slow and big man handles. Not concise smooth dribbler.
Johnson- lol. He tries boy he tries. Iso!
pointguardslim (7'0Leuer/6'10 Ry Anderson not 6'8 Marvin)
February 14th, 2012
3:39 pm
Josh Smith might not back down Artest but he’d get a few transition dunks. A few crossovers.
Josh Smith is not getting to the rim vs a big body like Gasol. People dont realize the thing about basketball is….
You can’t JUMP OVER a defender that size. You have to go AROUND them at an ANGLE.
Somebody please tell me how Josh Smith is going to get an angle on Gasol in isolation? LD Better have some crazy offensive sets because Bosh’s length shut Smith down inside.
Bricked hook shot after Bricked hook shot. People told Smith to get inside (against bigger players) but then are mum when he listens to them.
Playing inside vs 7 footers is playing to a strength? I dont see how Smith is getting inside vs Pau Gasol.
Halfcourt inside game was nonexistent for Smith last game and he kept trying. For the Hawks fans who told him to.
Yet his shots were altered and we got routed.
This game should wake up some of the bloggers here.
Bottomline:
Smith is a small forward and needs a STRETCH Power forward if we are to win with him. The PF and C hold position on post defense and when the big man trys to shoot the ball Smith’s help defense at the wing enables him to blindside blocks guys from behind and smaller players on the wing get surprised. Wings like to drive to the basket for easy points. Smith prevents that.
Looking at Smith’s #s he could be a hall of famer on the defensive end but we are wasting his mismatch potential by pairing him with Marvin.
Ra'mon
February 14th, 2012
3:44 pm
The Hawks will win by 9 tonight. Why? Because this is what the Hawks do. They bounce back from losses like that.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
3:49 pm
“The last SMALL Forward Smith’s size who won a championship was Dennis Rodman. And he had Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen on his team.”
WTF? Shawn Marion, last year? 6′7″, 220
Did you mean Power Forward?
jay
February 14th, 2012
3:52 pm
MC I would pull out my hair if they continue with this jump shooting mess. It’s all good when they are hitting them, but this team can go cold quicker than you can snap your fingers. Then next thing you know they are down by 20. It’d be different if they had a rebounder other than Josh, but they don’t.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
3:55 pm
pt guard slim is on top of his game!
Just awesome stuff!
Must be a coach or have been one.. His attention to details is second to none!
O'Brien
February 14th, 2012
3:59 pm
Melvin,
I would like to see JR on this team too. But let’s be real. He is not going to accept a pro-rated vet min contract from the Hawks (which the Hawks won’t even offer, because they will not go over the LT).
Players of his ability want (and deserve more $), which the Hawks can’t afford.
And the Clippers are interested in him. JR played with Chauncey and K-Mart in Denver, and has played with CP3 in N.O. Plus with Chauncey out for the year, JR will get major minutes. I think thats where he goes.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
4:01 pm
O’B,
And if WE had CP3, then we’d have players like that wanting to come here.
Freakin’ Billy Knight. Crap.
O'Brien
February 14th, 2012
4:04 pm
Drafting Marvin over CP3 and Deron AND giving Marvin the contract they did has really limited this team’s options (imo).
As for shooting more 3’s, I agree with turning the long 2’s into 3’s. But if the 3’s are not falling, I dont trust the players to stop shooting them, and go to the rim.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
4:05 pm
Pt guard slim, using angles, quickness and a deadly j will neutral size every day of the week on the offensive end.. Wish I could show Josh how to do it..I’m left handed like him.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
4:06 pm
The Hawks will win by 9 tonight. Why? Because this is what the Hawks do. They bounce back from losses like that.
—-
Only when the matchups benefit them. Don’t be fooled.
I’m expecting Josh Smith to handle the ball a lot in transition because thats one of his only advantages vs Gasol.
But he cant do that all night. Kobe says games are won in the post. Remember the post up slam on Turkoglu/Anderson.
Josh did not do that to a tall PF/C in Bosh and not to Hawes/Vucevic and not to Elton Brand.
We’ll see what he does against Gasol.
We’ll see what Joe does vs Barnes/Artest.
We’ll see what Marvin does vs Bryant. If he can post up and shoot over him quickly and consistently
McGrady will probably need to step up. Who knows surprise me Hawks.
But long term Smith + Joe need A tall stretch Power player.
—————–
@Sautee
I mistyped. That made little sense how I mistyped it.
“The last SMALL Forward Smith’s size who won a championship at POWER forward was Dennis Rodman.”
Yes its good to bring up Shawn Marion because he’s a limited range “garbageman” scorer and he lost in smallball (Phoenix) and only one when paired with a tall stretch forward in Dirk Nowitzki.
Not saying Leuer is anywhere near Dirk. But neither is Ryan Anderson and look at his Win Shared numbers and Kevin Love’s #s.
We have Josh+Joe to get you open and its just as good as having Dwight to suck in defense and get you open.
Ryan Anderson with Dwight sucking in defense generates wins.
59.4% TS%
4.3% TOV% (he just shoots the 3 or posts up a switch if its there or passes it. everytime)
13% TRB (average)
127 offensive rating, 103 defensive rating (Dwight byproduct)
25.2% Win Shares Per Minute %
Chris Paul is at 27%.
A big man who shoots and does not turn the ball over and rebounds fairly well. Can be just as good as a superstar.
We have our stars in Josh and Joe. We need Leuer to be our Ryan Anderson. And I think Hinrich for Gooden+Leuer would get it done. Marvin to the bench.
anphill2
February 14th, 2012
4:08 pm
More 3’s? With no post game you want us to shoot more 3’s? Cosign najeh…dribble penetration/foul line oppurtunities, are what we need come playoff time. Smith should be able to score against Pau on the block. If he can’t, he would simply be a better version of josh childress, as nothing more than a cleanup guy. If u want to change your offense to better-suit the needs of childress, Brian grants, Ron artests of the world, let me know how that works. Would like to see more of JJ and Duck in the post.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
4:08 pm
Pt guard slim, using angles, quickness and a deadly j will neutral size every day of the week on the offensive end.. Wish I could show Josh how to do it..I’m left handed like him.
—-
How do u use bold on here. Thats the problem with our version of small ball. Josh does not have a “deadly J”!
Put a PF defending on Joe Johnson does he get inside? Nope. Uses his deadly jumper.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
4:09 pm
I have no problem with Kirk for Gooden and Leuer, but with Bogut out for the season and Milwaukee still very much alive for the 8 seed I have a hard time seeing them part with Gooden for a point guard when Jennings is their best player.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
4:09 pm
Lakers by 30!
Trojan
February 14th, 2012
4:13 pm
It is sad when the Clippers have a more committed to winning management team than the Hawks.
anphill2
February 14th, 2012
4:15 pm
We have the highest percentage stretch 4 in the league coming back for playoffs. Close your eyes, say potential 3 times and envision Darko Milicic. Good, now we can stop the Leuer conversations.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
4:16 pm
Iso might as well callin sick..Matt always locks him down…..Game,set, and match!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
4:17 pm
Jordan Crawford offers up some V-Day advice.
Melvin
February 14th, 2012
4:23 pm
OB,
I’m 100% sure but I think the Hawks are already over the luxury cap.
As for JR, it’s being reported that he wants more than the vet min and bi-annual exception along playing time in a starter role is important to him. The Hawks still have their full MLE so they could out bid the Clippers and Knicks who only have bi-annual. ASG has stated they are willing to pay the luxury for the right player, well let’s see them sign JR.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
4:24 pm
Pointguardslim,
If Leuer is such a “stretch 4″, then why has he only attempted FIVE 3 point shots out of 122 total attempts?
And with that small of a sample, why are you convinced he will thrive?
And if the 3 is a strength of his, why isn’t Skiles using him that way?
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
4:26 pm
WOW? Milwaukee is still in the hunt for the 8th… give it a month.
“Clippers have a more committed to winning management team than the Hawks.”
from 2009: “Dunleavy believes that Griffin has the tools to play anywhere from center to small forward for the club.
During his workout with the Clippers on Saturday, Griffin showed off his ball-handling skills by drilling two and three basketballs at the same time — “something you probably don’t see too often from a 6-10 guy,” Dunleavy said.”
Josh Smith 6′8 225
Blake Griffin 6′10 250
Something wrong with that picture in my opinion. Josh drops near triple doubles and monster on the wing.
SI Scout -”An opposing team’s scout sizes up the Hawks”
“For them ever to be a championship team — not just a playoff team ———-You shift Josh Smith to small forward and bring Marvin Williams off the bench. But until they go in that direction, they’ll be the best 6-foot-8 team in the league with too many forwards on the roster.”
October 22, 2008
But Sund re-signed Marvin Williams. Rereading Mark Bradley interview with him…What a joke.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
4:27 pm
“Kim Kardashian, Reggie Bush Spotted Together In Beverly Hills” This week!
Guess Reggie trying to jump start his career! Shes like his good luck charm or something to that effect? Hahaha…
Just Joe
February 14th, 2012
4:27 pm
JR Smith would be huge for this team. Leave Hinrich in LA after tonight’s game. Trade exception and Dallas’s 1st rd pick works for me.
JR gets a 1-yr prorated $5M deal, with a new deal worked out in the offseason.
Hawks still have the trade exception & 2nd rd picks to go after a player like Robin Lopez.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
4:32 pm
“SI Scout -”An opposing team’s scout sizes up the Hawks”
“For them ever to be a championship team — not just a playoff team ———-You shift Josh Smith to small forward and bring Marvin Williams off the bench. But until they go in that direction, they’ll be the best 6-foot-8 team in the league with too many forwards on the roster.”
October 22, 2008
But Sund re-signed Marvin Williams. Rereading Mark Bradley interview with him…What a joke.”
Billy “GTFO” Knight’s blue print: a bunch of mother freaking interchangeable forwards and the Championship is ours.. A point guard or two guard or real center? Huh? lol
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
4:32 pm
Maybe, on the other hand, they can be convinced to do this trade.
Hawks get Stephen Jackson, Jon Leuer, Jon Brockman
Bucks get Kirk, Marvin, and Erick Dampier
Why the Hawks might do it: Jackson’s contract is a year less than Marvin’s, and the possibility that Leuer’s mom is right about Leuer’s potential. If the trade gets Jackson motivated, he’s the best player in this deal, and he’s another guy in the starting lineup who can create his own shot.
Why the Bucks might do it: they save $3 million off the cap next year, get rid of Stephen Jackson who has been wanting out of there all year, and trade one guy getting consistent minutes for two guys getting consistent minutes.
Why the Hawks wouldn’t do it: Jackson is a major gamble, he’s owed $10 million next year which would probably have the Hawks over the luxury tax line, and you’re trading two rotation players for one rotation player, an unproven rookie, and an end-of-the-bench scrub.
Why the Bucks wouldn’t do it: Marvin’s contract.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
4:52 pm
Leuer is 6-10 according to draftexpress – same as the new Marvin.
Marvin is quicker, a better shooter from NBA 3, a better defender, a far better rebounder than Leuer.
Leuer hasn’t played more than 7 minutes in the past 5 games, averaging like 1.8 and 1.3, with a DNP in there.
The scouting reports on Leuer, of which I could post some if I wanted to waste that time, say he’s a bad rebounder, can’t defend the 4 because he’s too weak and slow, can’t play the 3 because he’s too slow, but 3 is going to be his NBA position probably.
So I really am not trying to be negative, and maybe Leuer is Jeremy Lin and Skiles is too stupid to see it. But why get Leuer? We have a better version of him in Marvin – bigger (weight), quicker, better shooter (arguably)? Why not just use Marvin and be done with it?
The Monger
February 14th, 2012
4:55 pm
terrible article from an author that knows obviously nothing about the game of basketball or the makeup of this Atlanta Hawks team. His decision is based solely on the fact that “the Hawks are 2nd in the league in 3 point percentage”….yes one 28 game sample is enough to convince him that the Atlanta Hawks are “good shooters”. That is laughable, from watching these Hawks for the past 15 years or so, I cant definitively say we are the worst shooting team in the league, we cant put layups in the basket, we cant put jumpers in the basket, we cant (until this year) put 3’s in the basket. Collectively, we have some of the worst shooters in the NBA, and some of the worst I have seen in this league in a long time…Josh Smith is horrid, Jason Collins is terrible, T-Mac is now subpar, Kirk Hinrich is garbage, I could go on and on about the terrible shooters on this team, and even our “best shooters” like Joe, Teague, and Marvin are league average at their best and downright pathetic at their worst…
Now, you ask, how are they 2nd in the league in 3 point percentage?? Because we have played a laughingly easy schedule up to this point with I believe over 65 percent of our games against losing teams, also combined with the fact that MOST of the team is shooting above their career averages, some like teague and marvin are way above their career 3 point percentages….they will fall back to earth soon, especially against good teams…
Please dont make the Hawks think they are good shooters, Mr. Author, the only one who I have ANY confidence in right now to make a 3 point shot in a close game is Joe, and as everyone knows with Joe, its hit or miss depending on what night, against what team, and whether he feels like playing at all that night….sad, really…
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
4:56 pm
MB: Can you do that without a superstar?
RS: Define “superstar.”
MB: Is Joe?
RS: I didn’t say, “Ask me.” I said, “Define it.” [Laughter all around.] See, I listen to your questions. It gets into my theory …
MB: This is the “top 10 guys in the league” thing.
RS: You got it. Can you win championships and be an elite club with three or four players on your roster who are in the top 10 or 12 at their position? You can. Detroit showed that [in 2004]. Now [Chauncey] Billups today is an All-Pro All-Star, but he wasn’t when Detroit got it, and neither was Rich Hamilton. And neither was Tayshaun Prince. But Ben Wallace was in the top 10 of power forwards, and Rasheed [Wallace] went from a top five player in the league when he was at Portland to a top eight.
If you get enough players collectively who are in the top 12 or 13 at their position, you can win a championship. It’s been proven. And that’s what we have to do … We’ve got to do it collectively if we don’t have an MVP candidate.
—————-
Come on Sund. Top 12 or Top 13? Is that what Chauncey was at the time? Rip?
Aim higher. Top 5 at each position.
Josh Smith is a top 5 player at the SF. He shuts them down and boards up.
Joe Johnson is only behind Wade and Bryant.
Marvin and Bibby were the top 13 he must’ve been talking about. Sund is an idiot for resigning Marvin.
————-
Skiles wants him to play inside because they have a bunch of shooters and want him to stick his 7 foot but inside to play POWER forward inside. They basically want him to be active inside like we want Josh to be for us. That isn’t his strength.
If you watch him shoot a 3 in the NBA you see he has a smooth short quick stroke. And then check his shooting #s.
I think I have a vid with him shooting a step back 3. Pretty sure both 3s I have him shooting are both buzzer beaters.
I dont know if the Bucks would be better telling Leuer to stay outside and Delfino and Dunleavy and Udrih will post up. Maybe thats why Skiles wants him posting up.
That has nothing to do with us however. We have Joe and Josh at the wings.
———
Just look at why Marvin has failed. Too lanky and slow shooting. Too small to really box out or block shots. Enter Jason Collins and the “Twin lineup”.
Even if you cant see it. Size helps.
Now if you want to see the top SFs and PFs in the league you will notice they have similar traits. They are not slow shoters.
Outside of an occasional Durant they all have similar physical attributes that got them in the league.
You look at the smooth shooters and then look at their measurements and you will notice something very strange. Most of them all fall into the same wingspan range.
Between 6′11″ and 7′0″.
Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, David Lee, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Kaman, Charlie Villanueva, Josh Smith, Damien Wilkins, Blake Griffin, Ty Hansbrough, Thaddeus Young, Kevin Love,
Leuer is not a great 1 on 1 player and his defense is average. He can box out and hold arms but not real active like Ilaysova or Mbah a Moute. THose are what Skiles feels he needs. Activity and athleticism.
But we have that in Josh Smith. Milwaukee’s problems should not concern us as Hawks fans. Thats bad GM type thinking.
Im talking about being 7 foot tall and hitting an open shot. He can do that to aplomb. And those are a shocking # of talented players that fall into that 6′11-7′0 wingspan range. Leuer is stiffer but can hit the shot and is not easily contested and help our Marvin issues.
Just call me the wingspan scout. I did the work to find a good player now Sund needs to make the trade.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
5:01 pm
I mean isn’t Vlad Rad Jon Leuer already?
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
5:01 pm
Hawks about to get they ass kicked tonight
prison mike
February 14th, 2012
5:01 pm
Hawks need to work it in the post more to JS and let him kick it out for the 3 pointers. Been saying it for a while but on the right block he’s so so. On the left block he I would say “almost elite”.
It won’t matter against LA because they have too much size for an NBA team.
LT
February 14th, 2012
5:03 pm
@The Monger “Because we have played a laughingly easy schedule up to this point with I believe over 65 percent of our games against losing teams, also combined”
Most of the teams in the east have been playing against teams with losing records…. The Heat are the only team in the east with a winning record against .500 or better teams.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
5:05 pm
So let’s quit the myth – Leuer is 6-10 w/o shoes – not 7-0 even with shoes. So let’s deal in truth here. So just how is Leuer different than Vlad Rad? Great shot, poor rebounder, around average in other areas.
Sounds like Vlad Rad to me – except he’s 380,000.00 cheaper but with no NBA experience.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
5:07 pm
“Now, you ask, how are they 2nd in the league in 3 point percentage?? Because we have played a laughingly easy schedule up to this point with I believe over 65 percent of our games against losing teams, also combined with the fact that MOST of the team is shooting above their career averages, some like teague and marvin are way above their career 3 point percentages….they will fall back to earth soon, especially against good teams…”
Not saying they won’t fall to earth, but…
The hawks have played 28 games. 14 against below .500 teams, and 14 against above .500 teams. I don’t believe that’s anywhere close to 65%.
“even our “best shooters” like Joe, Teague, and Marvin are league average at their best and downright pathetic at their worst…”
Here’s what MC just posted: The Hawks have five players who are shooting better than the league average (34.6 percent) on 3s: Jeff Teague (45.3 percent), Marvin Williams (44.8), Willie Green (42.9), Vladimir Radmanovic (39.7), and Joe Johnson (36.9).
If they are shooting BETTER than league average, than how the F are they, as you described it
“league average at best”
Reading is fundamental.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
5:07 pm
Chicago has played a far easier schedule than the Hawks according to Hollingers strength of schedule. So has Boston and Philly if I’m not mistaken, without looking….
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
5:11 pm
I’ll try this again.
Pointguardslim,
If Leuer is such a “stretch 4″, then why has he only attempted FIVE 3 point shots out of 122 total attempts?
And with that small of a sample, why are you convinced he will thrive?
And if the 3 is a strength of his, why isn’t Skiles using him that way?
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
5:13 pm
The Hawks are 23rd in strength of schedule. The Sixers, Bulls, Knicks, Celtics, and Magic have all had easier schedules. The Heat schedule has only been slightly harder (they are 22nd).
The Lakers, on the other hand, have the 4th hardest strength of schedule so far, so their 16-12 record is probably a little deceptive. The Bucks (9th), Bobcats (10th), and Pacers (14th) are the only teams in the top half of the league in strength of schedule.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
5:13 pm
^the only East teams in the top half of the league in strength of schedule
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
5:17 pm
@SteveW
Leuer is listed as 6-11.5 and 6-11 according to draftexpress. The new Marvin? is 6′9 on a good day. This is the beauty of draftexpress.
Marvin WIlliams was drafted with a 7′3.5″ wingspan. Now click on wingspan on the measurements history. Scroll down to players with 7′3.5″ wingspan.
If Marvin were 6′10 and had a 7′3.5″ wingspan… he’d be physically the same as Chris Webber.
Marvin has not grown 2 inches into 6′10.
Marvin is not quicker, than Leuer. Much heavier. A worse shooter and easy to see why if you watch video. He’s shorter and easier to contest.
He shoots a lot from NBA 3, because his coach tells him too. A worse defender at the PF spot. Marvin is a SF and the only PF hes been able to physically match up with this year is Ryan Anderson.
Rebounding
ORB% DRB%
6.4 20.0
9.0 15.9
The one with more offensive boards is the 7 footer.
Marvin with his length is grabbing 13.2% of all boards. Leuer with his height is grabbing 12.3%.
Dont know whats gotten into you SteveW.
The scouting reports on Leuer,
We have a worse version of Leuer in Marvin – shorter, a slower shooter, And does not punish shooters.
It would be clear if you used video. Hopefully at some point I can make a video of Marvin vs Miami.
But he’s jumping, kicking his legs and bricking wide open shots.
The stats, history and video don’t lie. White boy is a pure shooter.
Marvin is worse at FT%, TS%, FG% BLK%, ORTG (I overlooked that!). And yes SGs and PG can keep him from getting a good shot in the post easily.
Dont know how you can take 3 pointers made when we see all the ones that he passes up because he takes too long to loadup and shoot.
Marvin starting is a version of the Hawks that must die. Need to get bigger and its insulting to intelligence and eye test to say that Marvin is same size or impact as Leuer.
Its crazy or more likely you’ve not seen Leuer play. He is not a SF. He’s a PF/C. And size matters with Josh Smith. Ask why Jason Collins started over Marvin. I will try to post the Leuer-Bulls video.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
5:24 pm
1st video I saw is Leuer trying to play center. Got posterized by Taj Gibson. lol. That lack of defense again. But yeah no Josh Smith or Pachulia/Horford to help him.
He was playing center with Jon Brockman and Dunleavy. But here’s the points. Scored 18 pts in 2 quarters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D5ZNEzINfs
His white boy defense stands out with the Bucks thats full of nonexplosive athletes. But he is Gugliotta 2.0.
Jeff Teague
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Gugliotta
Pachulia (wait till Horford comes back)
I dont even care about 3s. How many midrange js were easily contested because Marvin’s average size or did he brick against the Heat for whatever reason.
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
5:26 pm
The Hawks would be 10-18 if their schedule was the 4th hardest for sure!
23rd easiest? Yep we got fake out of our shoes to believe this team was a potential contender this year.. Now that’s an April fools joke that came early this year…….hahaha….
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
5:28 pm
Marvin is a nervous wreck when he shoots the rock…The leaning and kicking his feet makes me nervous just watch that chit…………………….
Slimjr
February 14th, 2012
5:30 pm
23rd easiest schedule no wonder why the National media wasn’t buy your product Gearon Jr….You can fool some of us but not all of us Chump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
honest_abe
February 14th, 2012
5:31 pm
“1st video I saw is Leuer trying to play center. Got posterized by Taj Gibson. lol. That lack of defense again. But yeah no Josh Smith or Pachulia/Horford to help him”
how in the world do you include pachulia in any argument for defense. if flopping constitutes great help defense then he should get a nod for 1st team all defensive team.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
5:43 pm
So let’s quit the myth – Leuer is 6-10 w/o shoes – not 7-0 even with shoes. So let’s deal in truth here. So just how is Leuer different than Vlad Rad? Great shot, poor rebounder, around average in other areas.”
????? 6′10 without shoes? Josh Smith and Marvin are 6′7 without shoes. NBA hasn’t played without shoes for a couple years. SteveW. Are you following me?
I don’t blame you for not watching Bucks games, but Radmanovic is nothing like Leuer. Well they’re both white.
Radmanovic is the smaller weaker one with no defense and no absolutely no power in his game. He’s the one you can guard with SFs.
Leuer is the bigger one with 9% offensive rebound %. Josh Smith’s ORB% is 6.0% btw.
12.8%—Ryan Anderson
11.5%—Andrew Bynum
10.3%—Dwight Howard
10.1%—Zaza Pachulia
9.6%—Ivan Johnson
9.0%— Jon Leuer
8.8%— Al Horford
6.0%— Josh Smith
5.2%— Vlad Radmanovic
Thats offensive rebounding %. How many of your or your team’s own shots you get back. Some players play higher minutes than others but those are still respectable #s. I dont even know how you past the draftexpress listings, get past the eye test, but those are the #s.
But you got it ass-backwards if you think that Vlad Rad a SMALL forward is the same as Leuer.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
5:48 pm
“pachulia in any argument for defense. if flopping constitutes great help defense then he should get a nod for 1st team all defensive team.”
Where’s Grizzard when you need him. A backup center that could start for quite a few teams. Voted by 5% of coaches for toughest player in the league.
Held Dwight Howard to 18 points in an overtime game. Yeah. No Horford and we beat the Magic. Partially because Josh was still on Hedo and Marvin could check and rebound a bit vs a PF in Ry Anderson.
But Marvin must go and Pachulia’s defensive rating is only 5 points behind Josh’s. He’s usually tied with Horford in defensive rating.
But I don’t see 6′11 270 lb Pachulia fouling out early vs Dwight, like Horford. Funny How that works.
ag
February 14th, 2012
5:54 pm
I did the math… the Hawks go as JT goes. Please do an article on it MC. Since KH return, we are 5-5 and LD has cut JT’s minutes. I broke it down in my last post.
ag
February 14th, 2012
6:06 pm
Interesting stats.. the Hawks are 12-4 when JT takes at least 10 shots. The Hawks are 5-5 since KH joined the team from injury. JT has NOT played over 40 minutes in non of these games and has played at least 30 minutes in only two of those (1-1). The Hawks are 5-1 when Teague plays at least 40 minutes. The Hawks are 4-2 when Jeff scorers 20.
W. R. Terrell
February 14th, 2012
6:10 pm
Shoot more 3’s? You gotta be kiddin me. That should have never been written. The worst 3 point shooter the HAWKS have is Josh Smith and he will be launching from everywhere now. You want more offense then LD should start TMAC in place of Marvin. That’s one simple fix and make Josh rebound consistantly as in at least 12 a game he’s capable of that. This 5 game road trip will be a bruiser and we all may see the truth of our “Beloved” HAWKS.
cdog
February 14th, 2012
6:26 pm
mattp, i agree with you totally.thats where our number 1 problem comes in as i been saying all along, rick sund.its been 5 years and the hawks still don’t have a good center. why? because sund is an incompetent GM.TEAGUE HAS PHYSICAL SKILLS ON HINRICH BUT HINRICH HUSTLES, PLAY WITH BETTER FUNDAMENTAL SKILLS AND IS SMARTER THAN TEAGUE.JANNERO PARGO LOOKS MORE LIKE A POINT GUARD THAN ANY OF THEM WHEN HE PLAYS.I THINK DREW SHOULD START HIM, HE CAN’T DO ANY WORSE.
northcyde
February 14th, 2012
6:27 pm
MC. . . . . it’s OK man. You can say it.
Marvin Williams needs more minutes and shots.
Especially since he’s become a deadly 3 point shooter this year. At least 3 of the jumpers that Smith takes per game, should be going to Marvin.
According to hoopsstats.com, Marvin ranks 18th in efficiency amongst SFs with an 11.6 rating. Those are average SF numbers. Here’s the problem. He ranks 34th in minutes at 24 minutes a game.
Let’s repeat that.
18th in efficiency – 34th in minutes
So what might happen if he got more minutes and shots?
People complain because he starts. But he’s playing bench minutes. Play him starters minutes for the next 5 games, and see what happens.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
6:30 pm
Teague is regressing. Josh cant get rebounds if they dont miss shots lol.
If you want to make the team rebound consistantly put Smith at the wing and go big. The T-Mac fans need to see what Drew sees. He’s even smaller than Marvin. period.
It comes down to a rebounding shooter. As soft as Vlad is I think he should start and be done with it. Marvin as a super-sub wing with T-Mac could come to fruition.
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
6:34 pm
“The Hawks are 5-1 when Teague plays at least 40 minutes. The Hawks are 4-2 when Jeff scorers 20.”
OK,. let me preface this by saying that Hinrich has played too many minutes, given the job Pargo was doing. Also, the Hinrich that we see today is NOT yet the Hinrich of the Magic series.
That said……
For the last 10 games since KH returned Jeff is a total -7 in the minutes he has played. Kirk is -4.
To me, that says that neither of them has set the world on fire. About that 5-1 record when Jeff plays 40 minutes, well that was against the Bobcats, the Nets, the Raptors, the Bucks, the T-Wolves, and the Heat. One quality team, and that was our losing 3 OT game.
His 4-2 record when he scores 20: against the Nets (twice), T-Wolves, Spurs (in a blowout loss), Hornets, and Sixers (loss). Once again, losses to the only quality teams on that list.
I’m a Jeff Teague fan, but he has not played particularly well for this last ten game stretch, since Hinrich came back. I want him playing so well that we could trade Hinrich, but I wouldn’t pull the trigger based on the last ten games. I keep hopin’.
MattP
February 14th, 2012
6:42 pm
Sautee,
Teague has started out a few of these last games looking good but Drew ruins it but benching him for Hinrich.
Larry
February 14th, 2012
6:42 pm
Hey Larry, betcha will be throwing in the towel mid-way through the 2nd quarter?
Watch…….
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
6:43 pm
What happened when we were down 10 and Marvin got reinserted for McGrady who was posting up?
We start “jogging” (I refuse to use runnning) Marvin off of screens and turning the ball over.
18th in efficiency. As in mediocre. As in he bricks fast break dunks and air balls layups. 18th in efficiency as in he does not no easy shots. He kills momentum.
What the hell is wrong with Hawks fans actually PROMOTING mediocrity.
Player Name EFF
LeBron James 30.58
Kevin Durant 26.48
Josh Smith——–19.74
Paul Pierce 18.83
Carmelo Anthony 18.36
Danilo Gallinari 17.96
Andre Iguodala—17.79
Luol Deng———-16.95
Gerald Wallace—16.56
Rudy Gay———–16.22
Danny Granger—-14.85
Trevor Ariza 13.21
Jared Dudley 12.73
Nicolas Batum 12.54
Dorell Wright 12.50
Caron Butler 12.30
Marvin Williams 12.13
That is a surprising stat, but I guess efficiency measures how productive you are with your time.
Hmm? 18th or 3rd.
You have to go all that way down the list meanwhile Josh Smith’s efficiency would rank just behind Durant and Lebron James at SF.
But your main concern is finding minutes for Marvin???? Who ranks behind Trevor Ariza? What?
Your main concern should be Josh at that SF spot so we can be elite. Not giving minutes to Mr. 18th in Marvin.
This is mind-numbing. Marvin is less than 1/2 as productive as Lebron and worse in his minutes and you want to give him more minutes? We got blown out when he came back in the game.
Find a PF shooter and rebounder so Smith can move to SF is the Hawks only concern.
Player Name EFF
LeBron James 30.58
Kevin Durant 26.48
Josh Smith——–19.74
Paul Pierce 18.83
Carmelo Anthony 18.36
or stay with Mr. Irrelevant
Marvin Williams 12.13
Rusty
February 14th, 2012
6:52 pm
For years we needed a good pg. Finally we have one but this stupid coach is trying to screw him over. Any nitwit can see he has every thing but a dumb coach doesn’t want him to succeed.he has blazing speed & can get to the basket any time, plays great defense,don’t turn the ball over a lot.his outside shot might not look great but he has proven that he is pretty efficient in making them. The only he lacks is a coach willing to give him the job.let’s be trueful KH has had his upside & has seen his better days.he doesn’t have great speed,can’t get to the basket,can’t guard quick pg’s.he never was that great in his prime. Why even think of KH ,he is not the future. I’ve not seen any downside with this kid other than LD trying to hurt him
Sautee
February 14th, 2012
6:56 pm
MattP.
“Teague has started out a few of these last games looking good but Drew ruins it but benching him for Hinrich.”
First, ALL of these players are supposed to be professionals. Come in, do your job while you are on the court. If Jeff can so easily be thrown off his game by being pulled, then he’s not filling his job description. Yes, if he’s scored 10 in a row and LD pulls him, go ahead and scream, but that’s NOT what’s been happening. In 5 of the last 6 games, Jeff doesn’t have a steal.
Think about that for a moment. he’s near the league lead in total steals, but NONE in 5 of the last 6 games. That shows a passivity that we weren’t seeing earlier in the season. If Jeff can’t be aggressive, he’s not nearly as effective.
IMHO, LD is not the culprit here. Teague’s own self-doubt has shown itself through the last three years. That said, I’d like to see Kirk play WITH Teague some, with either Joe or T-Mac at the 3.
Rusty
February 14th, 2012
6:58 pm
I’m so sick of the raw deal he has been given. I’m sure that there is a lot of teams in the NBA who would be glad to take him off our hands.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
6:59 pm
Let’s repeat that.
18th in efficiency. Yet you want to give him more minutes? Efficiency goes down with more minutes.
How about we bench Josh and let Marvin go to work. Terrible. Marvin gets no minutes and fewer touches because hes easy to defend.
What?? Shoot more 3s? You only get 24 seconds per possession and Marvins passing them up. Hes a starter passing up shots. Not even looking at the rim.
Whatever. Smith has not been scoring on Gasol in the halfcourt for a few years. Gasol isnt one of those dopes who falls down and lets Smith get dunks in transition.
Gasol will smother his hook shot attempts and stick a hand in his face when shooting. Too long,
We’ll see if Josh Smith can pull of 1 of his triple doubles and hit jumpers, carry sorry Marvin to the promised land.
Knowing Duck he’ll man up…Marvin goes for 30 & 10 while boxing out Gasol regularly and allowing Smith to roam on defense tonight? smh
Rusty
February 14th, 2012
7:00 pm
In order for this team to be any better than it’s has been over the past 3 years JT has to succeed.
MattP
February 14th, 2012
7:01 pm
“That said, I’d like to see Kirk play WITH Teague some, with either Joe or T-Mac at the 3.” – Sautee
I do agree with you here.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
7:03 pm
“I’m so sick of the raw deal he has been given. I’m sure that there is a lot of teams in the NBA who would be glad to take him off our hands.”
“Hawks considering trading guard Jeff Teague and swingman Maurice Evans to Cleveland for guards Ramon Sessions and Manny Harris, source said.”
Feb 22, 2011
Marc J Spears Twitter
The next day Bibby was traded.
I did not remember seeing that…. But The hindsight at the ineptitude is shocking here.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
7:04 pm
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/hawks-trading-ramon-sessions-1500304/
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
7:07 pm
“…I’m a cavs fan and even I don’t want this trash….Maurice Evans? funk outta here”—
A cavs fan on Teague and Mo Evans vs Ramon Sessions + Manny Harris (D-league)
Sounds like Hawks bloggers on Jeff+Joe+Josh+Leuer+Horford lineup.
Lets see what Marvin does. And how Josh does vs Gasol.
northcyde
February 14th, 2012
7:09 pm
PG slim. The entire team played lousy vs Miami. I questioned that move myself. With the lineup Drew had in the game, JJ should’ve been the choice to replace T-Mac, not Marvin.
As for Marvin’s efficiency, that number usually correlates with minutes. Every other starter sees his efficiency rank at his position correlate with his rank in minutes at that position. Only Marvin has wild fluctuations in minutes compared to efficiency.
As for Leuer, you tell that bum to play his way onto the Bucks roster before he even begins to play for a playoff caliber squad.
Rusty
February 14th, 2012
7:16 pm
MattP why would you want JT & KH play together. KH isn’t big enough to play 2 guards. To develope JT as your pg why would you have him playing with KH. It’s bad enough with JJ trying to have the ball go through him,also I don’t think you could depend on KH to give you a lot of points.
flash
February 14th, 2012
7:24 pm
Kirk and Marvin for Ellis and Udoh. Both teams benefit
Admiral Ackbar
February 14th, 2012
7:25 pm
Wow, maybe Sunday wasn’t a fluke for the Hawks. Miami is tearing up the Pacers tight now…
ITS A TRAP!!!!!!!!
Admiral Ackbar
February 14th, 2012
7:29 pm
Lakers are 11-2 at home….
ITS A TRAP!!!!!!
MattP
February 14th, 2012
7:31 pm
Rusty,
So you are saying he is not big enough even though there are other SG out there his size? It really depends on the matchup. He is a good defender, you do not need him to score a lot, just for him to stop the other SG from scoring.
Rusty
February 14th, 2012
7:31 pm
Flash it would take a lot more than KT&MW for Ellis.
pointguardslim
February 14th, 2012
7:32 pm
Leuer is a bum?? Are you Rick Sund?
Marvin Williams WinShared/48 is .174. That’s 17.4% and it used to be over 20%.
The more minutes he’s been playing the more his ability to generate wins has gone down.
Marvin Williams is a bust. The only reason he isnt a bust is because Rick Sund paid him for being on the 1st playoff squad.
You’re questioning Marvin coming into the game, to play basketball. Yet you’re telling LD to give him more minutes?
You know he has to play basketball with those minutes right. You never listed a flux of Marvins efficiency.
He’s inefficient because he is a bad basketball player. Even his best efficiency was 08-09 and that was “15.48″ and still not close to Smith.
As for Leuer, you tell other Hawks fans they lost their mini Dwight Howard in Josh Smith to free agency because the closest thing to Ryan Anderson they could get was signing Marvin Williams for $38 million.
lol $38 million?
You’re an idiot. You said in your own words that we need someone we can post up. And we get that by going bigger and going in2 Josh Smith and Joe Johnson at the wings. Or 6′11 Leuer if they switch.
But then you say but Leuer isn’t playing. #LinSanity
Then you go on to talk about #18th and fluctuations. His best year in minutes he was still 17th overall amongst SF efficiency! You say that Marvin needs more minutes & yet say in the same blog that you questioned LD inserting him into the game last game.
I dont even use hoopdata but that you dont know how to pose a good argument.
Jason Collins took Marvin Williams spot so we could force matchups and dictate the game. Marvin doesnt dictate anything except where the weakest defender goes to cover (him).
Do you work for the Hawks management trying to justify that? What is wrong with you? Even in his best year he was 17th amongst sfs. 18th if you count Smith who ranked 11th.
flash
February 14th, 2012
7:38 pm
Maybe Rusty, but Lacob needs to break up his core of ellis, curry, lee to get any better, and an expiring might look good. Maybe Atlanta can throw in a trade exception or 2nd rounder…
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
7:40 pm
if it’s any consolation…the Heat are beating down everyone on their road trip. Pacers down 20 at home in 1st quarter
flash
February 14th, 2012
7:40 pm
Udoh is as important as ellis as far as the hawks are concerned. Ellis can score but he and curry are too small and bad on D – one has to go, and if they finish bad enough, they get their 1st round pick back…
joey1
February 14th, 2012
7:41 pm
trade marvin williams/kirk hinrick for pau gasol( working bc of atlantas trade exception….this trade would benefit both teams..atlanta geta a much needed center and la gets a upgrade a point guard and a decent small forward…this works on the trade machine(espn)
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
7:42 pm
Northcyde you should know better than to diss a player to his momma’s face.
It’s only the first quarter in that MIA-IND game. Let’s see if Indiana folds like the Hawks or comes back and makes a game out of it.
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
7:42 pm
What is up with Hawks’ coverage these days? Can AJC not afford for a post-game blog? Could they not afford MARTA ticket for Viv or MC to blog from game?
Viv said he would catch up with Horf on Sunday…where is the article?
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
7:44 pm
Shoutout to Rod.
killin cats on this blog daily
LOL @ Marvin vid vs Toronto on MLK Day. From last blog. Dude is worst player on this team.
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
7:45 pm
Miami on b2b2b and killin all 3 teams
Admiral Ackbar
February 14th, 2012
7:46 pm
LOL at AJC, can’t afford MARTA LOL
ITS A TRAP!!!!!
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
7:51 pm
Pacers in front of a packed house….down 23 at home….only have 24 pts halfway thru the 2nd quarter
Miami beastin
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
7:56 pm
announcers aren’t going in on the Pacers though….that’s the only difference
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
7:57 pm
Pointguardslim,
What inappropriate comment did you make?
northcyde
February 14th, 2012
7:58 pm
Lol @ the Leuer troll. I couldn’t even get past the 1st sentence.
If Marvin’s win share/48 min number is .174, do you even understand how good that is? And when that number was over .200, that means his win share was damn near elite level. Check the rest of the hawks and see what their number is in that category.
northcyde
February 14th, 2012
8:05 pm
Lol najeh. I’m done even talking to dude. I’m bored at work and needed some entertainment.
Until Leuer becomes even a remotely productive NBA player, and not a Vladimir Radmanovic/Hilton Armstrong hybrid, I’m done talking about a Milwaukee benchwarmer.
Where is the Sixers troll? At least we can get live updates of Sixer games from him.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
8:12 pm
PGSlim – Slow down hoss, much videoing hath made thee mad.
DraftExpress says Leuer is 6-10, 6-11.5 with shoes.
Now didn’t MC run the article saying Marvin had grown an inch with the back surgery? That’s AJC, not me.
As far as rebounding goes, Leuer is averaging 2.9 boards in 13.3 mpg, and Marvin is averaging 5.5 in 24.3 mpg. That’s about the same – so I’ll cede a point and say they are about the same as far as rebounding goes.
Now Marvin is averaging 44.8% from the 3. And Leuer is 2-5 from there all season. So how is Leuer a better 3 point shooter again?
And Leuer is averaging 1.8 and 1.3 in 6 mpg his last 5 games – shooting 33.3% from the floor – Hmm, I wonder why he’s not playing more, especially with Bogut down?
And exactly why is he not Vlad Rad again? Don’t we already have an older version of Leuer, the non 7-0 footer no matter how you slice it?
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
8:15 pm
Pacers down 30 at half at home to Miami…
may have overreacted to the Hawks loss just a tad
Nate ArchiBALL
February 14th, 2012
8:16 pm
Jeff Teague – a total of 19 assists in the last 6 games (2 – MIA, 2 – ORL 4 – IND, 1 – PHX, 6 – PHL, 4 – MEM)…….. both assists in Miami game occurred with under 55 seconds in the 1st half (Marvin’s two three pointers)
There is a difference between a point guard and a guard that plays the point……..
ag
February 14th, 2012
8:18 pm
It is very hard for a guy to produce while he is on the bench. In the Miami game, JT hit two treys and got rewarded with some pine time. He was not effective ever since. Again, when the guy plays heavy minutes he does well. Hawks with KH back 5-5. UNLEASH JEFF TEAGUE!
I actually think Marvin is playing much better this year and would like him to play 35-40 minutes per game. Marvin should get time at the 3 & 4 and T-Mac at 2 or 3. Sprinkle in Willie Green and keep your rotation down to 8 or 9. KH spot minutes like Pargo was getting 8-14.
SteveW
February 14th, 2012
8:19 pm
And this Rick Sund should just make this trade happen. Ever thought he may have called the Bucks and inquired about Leuer? And they said, we’re developing he and Sanders to go with Jennings to be some building blocks for the future. Are you delusional? How do you know Sund hasn’t inquired? Even if he should, because Leuer may be a bum, who knows.
But we don’t need to get delusional blaming the GM for something you have no idea whether he’s worked on it or not. This is not fantasy land. The other GM’s have a say, and their million dollar lifestyles are on the line, so they don’t want to just make stupid trades to make our teams better (maybe possibly in this case).
Come on dude – get a grip. Your slipping from Bogut derangement syndrome, then you’ve been deliviered after dedicating a serious portion of your life fighting for a trade that now you said you’d have been a bad one.
You’ve made your point, move on.
Rev in Tampa
February 14th, 2012
8:21 pm
This is for all you clowns calling for us to pick up JaVale McGee in a trade.
http://www.nbcwashington.com/blogs/capital-games/JaVales-One-Man-Defense-138849969.html
ag
February 14th, 2012
8:24 pm
When I watch the Hawks play, I watch all the assist ZaZa blows or the missed shots by Josh and Joe. Since KH return, JT has played 30 minutes twice 21-2-6 in loss to Philly and 13-0–3 in win vs Orlando. Let him play his game and the Hawks will win!
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
8:26 pm
I wonder if Portland fans (who haven’t seen the 2nd round of the playoffs since Nate arrived) sit around longing for CP3 and Deron (both of whom they could have drafted in 2005)? Strangely, many bloggers here show crazy admiration for that team who has made as many personnel mistakes AND haven’t had nearly the post-season success. Grass is greener… they say.
Admiral Ackbar
February 14th, 2012
8:33 pm
@Astro Joe, Brandon Roy man, Brandon Roy….
ITS A TRAP!!!!!!
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
8:35 pm
Heat up by ~30 in Indiana. I think Bird is already on the phone trying to trade Granger, West & Hibbert before the 4th quarter begins. That’s the proper way to handle home blowout losses to the Heat… liquidate your team.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
8:39 pm
Admiral Ackbar, you mean the former college player with a ton of injuries while at Washington who never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs and has contributed less to Portland this season that Vlad-Rad has for the Hawks? Yeah, nice player with very good stats who ultimately was a regular season-wonder. Excuse me if that doesn’t make me wish that we had another regular season wonder on our squad. And Roy was drafted in 2006, the year AFTER CP3 and Deron.
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
8:44 pm
lmao @ that Javale McGee clip……pure comedy
TMACfan
February 14th, 2012
8:46 pm
Don’t hate on a player for never getting out of the first round, TMAC is still great. Atleast in my mind.
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
8:53 pm
FIRE MARVIN
FIRE ASG
yodaddybrother
February 14th, 2012
8:53 pm
TMac is a legend
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
8:55 pm
TEAM GETS BLOWN OUT AT HOME YET ASG THINKS WE ARE LEGIT
ROFTLMAOLOLSMGDMFHFFSKTGDMFC
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
8:59 pm
Heat up by 32 going into the 4th quarter in Indiana. Granger was just traded to the Rockets for Hasheem Thabeet and Yao Ming. West is rumored to be headed to Orlando for the remnants of Bo Outlaw and Penny Hardaway. Home blowout losses are not to be tolerated. Someone must pay.
Old Man Peabody
February 14th, 2012
9:03 pm
Lin 15 pts 10 assists thru 3 qtrs
MattP
February 14th, 2012
9:14 pm
Don’t forget, Lin also has 7 turnovers
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:15 pm
“Home blowout losses are not to be tolerated.”
This is Indiana’s second home blowout loss of the year. Three of the Hawks’ five home losses this year are by double digits, after routinely getting blown out at home last year. Also makes a bit of a difference when talking about a team that is still on the rise, versus one that has by your own admission been bumping their heads against the same ceiling for several years now.
Larry
February 14th, 2012
9:16 pm
JeJe looks like point guard slim, just two handed slammed a poster tonight! OUCH!
You know whats sad? You can guard Marvin with a freaking pt guard! LMAO!
Ag, agreed JT is not the same since Genius started yankin him at the 6 min mark in the 1st Quarter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course Larry has no idea he’s affecting chemistry in a negative way…Maybe he thinks the ship will get righted before the playoffs? Yea they maybe only a couple of games above .500 within the next 3-4 weeks….
23rd easiest schedule… son of a
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:17 pm
“KTGDMFC”
Knife The Gearon’s Damn Mother F-cking C-ck?
O'Brien
February 14th, 2012
9:22 pm
AJ,
Not all home blowout losses are created equally. The hawks are a perennial top4 contender,pacers are not. Also, hawks home blowout losses are becoming too common
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
9:23 pm
I think Teague has a good chance to have a big game tonight. PG’s have given the Lakers fits this season.
Watching the Knick game. First time watching Jeremy Lin. He is having trouble with Calderon, but is getting some back late. Good game, so far.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:23 pm
Who’s to say if the Pacers are on the rise? Someone once said the same for Arenas, Jamison and Caron.
The blowout didn’t start until the Pacers’ back-up PG came in the game. They were ready to compete but that guy gave up 99 points in about 6 minutes of court time.
O'Brien
February 14th, 2012
9:25 pm
Melvin,
If hawks wouldnt go into luxury tax for jamal, why would they go into luxury tax for jamal.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:26 pm
Pacers have now lost 4 in a row. Fire their head coach and bring in Javale McGee as their next head coach.
O'Brien
February 14th, 2012
9:26 pm
* why would they go into luxury tax for jr smith?
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:31 pm
Pacers were blown out tonight because of who they drafted at some point in the last 8 years.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:35 pm
Heat go 3-0 in back-to-back-to-back games and win each game by double digits. I wonder if those guys are any good? Naw, the opposing team’s GM clearly made a really bad contract extension to a player not worthy of a college scholarship.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:36 pm
“The blowout didn’t start until the Pacers’ back-up PG came in the game. They were ready to compete but that guy gave up 99 points in about 6 minutes of court time.”
Well, even if that’s what happened, we should never question the coach’s decision because he watches the players in practice every day and knows more than we do. The coach made the right move.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
9:38 pm
Linsanity!
ISO
February 14th, 2012
9:39 pm
NYK just stole a game. lol Lin’s winning 3 ftw.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:41 pm
Lin would have been this good last year had someone given him a chance to play.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
9:43 pm
Get ready for more Jeremy Lin love. Starting to get tired of it, but is a good story.
Who is staying up late for Hawks tonight? I am going to try.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:44 pm
“Lin would have been this good last year had someone given him a chance to play.”
Yes, he would have.
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
9:45 pm
Jeremy Lin FOR THE WIN AGAIN
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:45 pm
Unfortunately for the Hawks, this Linsanity sh-t had to happen before any of their scheduled meetings with the Knicks. I would have preferred to play the Toney Douglas and Iman Shumpert-led Knicks.
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
9:45 pm
SWEET CHRISTMAS btw
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:47 pm
Najeh, I’m glad you agree. I can’t believe these part-time bloggers who actually believe that they have equal insight as a full-time NBA head coach, craziness ain’t it? Like trying to tell the chef at Bone’s how to grill a steak. Silliness.
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
9:47 pm
Lin just shows what happens when the coaching staff believes in you and gives you a chance to play your game, unlike the Hawks that bury young PG’s on the bench and then keeps a tight leash on them still.
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
9:48 pm
I’m on the blog till midnight when I clock out and call it a day on the job, watch the rest when I get home.
TMACfan
February 14th, 2012
9:51 pm
THIS IS THE HAWKS BLOG! WE OWN THIS! DON’T TALK ABOUT JEREMY LIN HERE!
I’m not a hater, but this is Atlanta Basketball. GO HAWKS!!!
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:52 pm
So is Lin and MIP candidate or a MVP candidate?
And I wonder if he believes that he is better because of the journey that he took? No, he probably doesn’t have the mental capacity to link his experiences while fighting for an NBA job to his current success. Just jump high and dribble fast Lin… and leave your Harvard sensibility in the hotel room.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:56 pm
Pape Sy could have been our Jeremy Lin but we didn’t give him the playing time. Stupid coaching staff.
Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:56 pm
MC, usually enjoy your input but this blog is way over the top. Shoot more 3’s???????????? The Hawks. After personally witnessing the Memphis, Philly and heat debacles………………aw crap who cares, this franchise won’t be viable any time soon. MB nailed it in his column this morning
Man in Black
February 14th, 2012
9:57 pm
TRADE MARVIN, HORFORD & K-MAN & ONE 1ST ROUND PICK FOR HOWARD.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:57 pm
Toronto’s crowd erupted when Lin hit that 3, but somehow I doubt that Rob Parker has an article cued up about how terrible their fans are.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
10:02 pm
I am sure Mark Bradley is working on another b#llsh#t article ripping the Hawks for not drafting Lin.
I have zero love for Mark Bradley.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
10:04 pm
Notice “The Situation” from Jersey Shore sitting behind the basket, floor level, right where Lin hit that shot.
Buddy Grizzard
February 14th, 2012
10:04 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
9:44 pm
“Lin would have been this good last year had someone given him a chance to play.”
Yes, he would have.
Najeh I don’t know how you can say that. He’s benefitting from both a huge need at point guard that neither GS nor Houston had. He is also bennefitting from getting that opportunity with two of the best pick and roll big men in the game, something GS and Houston lacked as well.
He probably saved D’Antoni’s career as much as the coach saved his. But Lin is a poor outside shooter. The pick and roll is his specialty and getting into the lane is where he does his damage. I don’t see how anyone could say he would have been just as good without the combination of system, personnel and opportunity he found in NY. It’s really the perfect storm.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
10:05 pm
Astro, you’re kidding, right?
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
10:06 pm
I suspect that Bynum will dominate tonight (if Kobe opts to pass thhe ball). Dude would be an easy 20/10 if he were the featured half-court player on a team. He’s #3 on the Lakers.
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
10:08 pm
Section 303, just trying to capture some of the more common themes of this blog. (Except the part about Bynum).
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
10:10 pm
Amazing
Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
10:11 pm
Josh is saying BEFORE the game that the Hawks big men need to use their quickness and try not to settle for jumpers while attacking Bynum and Gasol. Sounds like the best reasonable game plan to me, let’s see if they have the discipline to execute the plan to force the Lakers to use thier limited lateral quickness to defend guys like Josh.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
10:11 pm
“He’s benefitting from both a huge need at point guard that neither GS nor Houston had.”
I didn’t blame either of those teams for not playing Lin. I know they had settled point guard situations. I only said he would have produced if he was given playing time last year. Astro Joe thinks that players like Lin, and like certain other players who didn’t get enough playing time their first two seasons, learn just as well by sitting on the bench and watching as by playing, and attributes the “improvement” of certain players who were buried on the bench their first two seasons to sitting and watching immobile corpses ahead of them on the depth chart.
“He is also bennefitting from getting that opportunity with two of the best pick and roll big men in the game, something GS and Houston lacked as well.”
Today was Amare’s first game playing with Lin. Yeah, it helps to have a guy like Chandler finishing your passes, as opposed to certain clumsy big men who have blown at least 15 potential assists from certain point guards who are finally getting playing time this season. But Lin’s main impact so far has come as a scorer, not as a distributor, as shown by his sub-2 assist/turnover ratio.
Section 303
February 14th, 2012
10:12 pm
Astro, got it. You’re right, though. Someone will probably make that argument.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
10:14 pm
Just saying you are taking my response to Astro Joe out of context. That was a reference to a much longer and more boring ongoing conversation.
KevinM
February 14th, 2012
10:15 pm
“Astro Joe
February 14th, 2012
9:56 pm
Pape Sy could have been our Jeremy Lin but we didn’t give him the playing time. Stupid coaching staff.”
Now AJ, that has to be the funniest thing I’ve read here in a while. But Pape can always get another shot.
And does anyone care that Solomon Jones has a new home? NO to help Kaman.
Back on page 2, note to ag: I’m with you sir! JT needs max minutes for this team to go forward.
Going forward, it’s all about the production from our starting 5, and that includes Zaza.
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
10:16 pm
1) ASG can’t afford a players stats board at Philips Arena (you know, where you look to see who is in the game, points, rebounds, etc).
2) AJC can’t afford public transportation for our beat-writers, so there is no live blogging during home games anymore. I’m sure they made MC pay his own way to L.A.
3) DO NOT START JEFF TEAGUE VS. JEREMY LIN. Teague, as we all know, takes games off, and HE IS HIGHLY OVERRATED DEFENSIVELY.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 14th, 2012
10:16 pm
“Pape Sy could have been our Jeremy Lin but we didn’t give him the playing time. Stupid coaching staff.”
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 14th, 2012
10:17 pm
Hawks lose 112-85 tonight. Odom usually had 20 rebound games against us, but someone else will go off.
Team will quit at halftime.
prison mike
February 14th, 2012
10:20 pm
That’s funny, Lin could win both MIP and MVP if he continues like this.
Luke Cage
February 14th, 2012
10:21 pm
Odom is in Dallas??
Big Lou
February 14th, 2012
10:23 pm
The Hawks have no chance starters vs starters, but our bench is much better. It would be like this team to get rolled over at home, and then beat the Lakers by ten at their house… a never mind. It was worth a shot…
Michael Cunningham
February 14th, 2012
10:23 pm
new blog posted. shutting down this thread.