Atlanta Hawks: Erick Dampier signed; Josh Smith snubbed?
Here is my AJC story on the Hawks signing Erick Dampier to a 10-day contract. Here is my other AJC story on Joe Johnson making the All-Star team and Josh Smith being left off.
AJC wise guy weighed in on the Smoove Snub. Now I will take a stab at figuring out if ‘Damp’ can help the Hawks.
Dampier is a big dude. Maybe he’s too big. He was last listed at 265 but, based on what I saw today, I’d say he’s at least 20 pounds north of that. (Sorry for the lack of visual evidence. I hate my phone.) I know the pool of free-agent centers is dreadfully shallow but Dampier never was the fleetest guy so now I wonder how effective he can be with the added weight.
The biggest red flags for Dampier last season were drastic declines in his scoring and rebounding rates. The two are related because Dampier didn’t grab as many offensive boards and so didn’t have as many putbacks. But Dampier still was effective when he managed to collect misses: His 1.1 points scored per possession on offensive rebounds (on 31 possessions) ranked 84th in the league last season, according to Synergy Sports Technology.
And Dampier may still have some value as a defender. His opponent PER of 14.3 last season was solid. Dampier’s Synergy defensive numbers were good: .83 points per possession allowed, 83rd-best in the league. Plus, let’s face it: At this point the Hawks just need a big body to plug in the middle so bigs can’t bull their way to the basket at will and smalls at least have an obstacle to navigate on their way to the basket.
The question with Dampier probably centers on whether he’s in good enough shape to approach those efficiency numbers now. It’s not a good sign when both coach and player say he needs time to work into game shape when he’s on a 10-day. But I’ll withhold judgment until we see Dampier on the court, which could come tomorrow vs. Dwight.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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235 comments Add your comment
High-Tech Lynching
February 10th, 2012
3:09 am
Josh Smith would have made the [2012] NBA All-Star team [as a reserve] representing the Eastern Conference if:
A. the Hawks are a 1 seed during the All-Star selection process.
B. the Hawks are a 2 seed during the All-Star selection process.
C. the Hawks are a 3 seed during the All-Star selection process especially if the Hawks are tied with the the 2 seed but are positioned [placed] as a 3 seed based on tie-breaker rules.
D. the Hawks are a 4 [or perhaps a 5] seed during the All-Star selection process and Josh Smith is averaging career highs statistically such as 18-21ppg, 10-12rpg, 5-6apg, 2.5-3blks/gm and 1.8-2.5stls/gm while shooting a FG% of 53%-55%, a 3FG% of 33%-36% and a FT% of 75%-80%.
Josh Smith does not have the “legacy” or “star power” to make the All-Star team [as a reserve] while the Hawks are a 5 seed during the All-Star selection process and he [Josh Smith] is averaging 15.6ppg, 8.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2blks/gm and 1.5stls/gm while shooting a FG% of 47%, a 3FG% of 28.6% and a FT% of 54%.
hawks fan down under
February 10th, 2012
3:21 am
jj is lucky in as much that the majority of his great play has been against sub 500 teams. he tends to go missing against top shelf.
josh is too temperamental, that’s what the coaches see. every year he is capable of bursts of all star play but then implodes, whinges etc. he just isn’t consistent enough. however I reckon if a fwd is injured he might just make it…..if Stern likes him that is.
Also is Dampier really going to make a difference….hope he doesn’t take Ivans minutes
vava74
February 10th, 2012
4:29 am
Quick roundup:
Damper is another guy who comes in 2/3 years too late.
He was sign STRICTLY as a stop gap until Collins returns (a coupe of 10 day contracts and he is gone).
Josh’s snub:
Coaches select players for the All-star reserves based on a single criteria: would I like to have this guy on my team / would I like to coach him (in a nutshell – is he good AND coachable?).
Whilst Josh brings it from a strict quality point of view – in spite of some really poor numbers in some categories – he does not survive the “is he coachable” test, so he is not selected.
Is this a fair assessment? I don’t think so since Josh looks uncoachable now ecause we have a weak HC on LD.
In all fairness, Woody was making an All-star out of Josh, and that was our only loss when Woody departed.
On JJ:
JJ survives with flying colours the above test. He is both good and coachable and the proof of that is the fact that he now DEFERS too much to LD’s offensive schemes.
JJ should take 20+ shots every game (he does sometimes fail to adapt his game to the best defenders). When he takes that amount of shots we usually win.
IND game is a good evidence of that: JJ took over in the first as a guy with his quality should look to do even when his shot is not falling.
This year on D he is mostly paired with the opposing SG – rather than on the PG – and his defensive numbers have been stellar. Another plus for the coaches.
Quality AND coachability.
Unless Josh starts to consistently put up 18/9/3/2/1.5 on good Fg and Ft% the perception of uncoachability will not be going away.
Having said that, Josh is annoying but very good – better than his offensive numbers.
Dawg
February 10th, 2012
4:40 am
Dampier is the best that Sund could do 4 weeks after Hortford is hurt. Pathethic.
Josh is more of an all star than Hortford. Hortford would have made it because he is listed at center.
Dawg
February 10th, 2012
4:43 am
How is it possible someone could be a stop gap to the 2nd worst player in the NBA (Collins)? The Hawks management is horrible.
Ray
February 10th, 2012
5:57 am
Josh > Joe just saying.
We can talk about this until we’re blue in the face, but Josh deserved to be there this year. You can try to read between the lines come up with a theory or whatever, but it doesn’t change the fact that Josh should have been there.
gail
February 10th, 2012
6:07 am
Sorry, Josh Smith did not make the allstar team.
JustAThought
February 10th, 2012
6:27 am
A “legitmate” center and Erick Dampier………………………. is a oxymoron to say the least.
vava74
February 10th, 2012
7:09 am
Dawg
February 10th, 2012
4:43 am
If you believe in ESPN player rankings to evaluate the value of a player, then you know nothing about basketball.
PER stats, Hollinger and ESPN are not the way to evaluate basketball. PER is HIGHLY fallible and a mere tool to compare similar players but it disregards contributions which do not show in the boxscore.
Collins is an excellent post defender when facing bulky/strong post back to the basket players.
As I have mentioned in the past several times and as Najeh said in one of the recent blogs, Collins is a situational player which has a high value in certain circumstances.
Yes, he can’t score, rebound or block shots, but he is a very disciplined defender who draws charges, sets good picks, clogs the lane and glues his chest to the offensive players making them shoot over him with little space to maneuver.
These are all things that most players don’t do well due to poor fundamentals, driven by a preference by young kids to learn flashy moves rather than sound defensive principles.
Bowen who was known to be a lock down defender also did not block shots nor got any steals. His boxscore was typically a big pile of nothing but he contribute in ways that were not visible for people who look only to the flashy side of the game.
Battier ditto.
And the opposite is also true: Iverson averaged 2 steals per game but that was not good D, that was a byproduct of him taking so many gambles on D that he got many steals.
What the boxscore does not show is that Iverson’s direct opponent more often than not (by a mile) had a free pass to the lane.
Collins has been in the Finals as a starting center. Was he good enough to stop Shaq and help his team win the Championship?
No, but he managed to help them to get to the door step and be competitive.
The same happened last year: in 2009/10 we were scared by Howard to the point of being completely defeated before tip off, but last year we won the regular season series and the playoff’s first round with Collins making Howard work hard and exposing his weak fundamentals and his over-reliance in pushing players around and getting bailed out by the refs.
And THIS year, in the game against Minny, Love was getting whatever he wanted in the post when Collins (and Ivan) changed that and made him try to beat us from the perimeter.
THAT put us back in the game and we took the W.
bamaboy
February 10th, 2012
7:17 am
Josh shouldn’t have made the all star team, because if he did it would be in his head that what kind of shots he is taken this year was good ones and we don’t need that.I also didn’t think Joe should have made it .I would have chosen Harry the hawk
Grandad
February 10th, 2012
7:25 am
Dawg
If Collins is the 2nd worst player in the NBA …
then who is the worst ? ? ?
Grandad
February 10th, 2012
7:37 am
JustAThought
“A “legitmate” center and Erick Dampier …
…………… is a oxymoron to say the least”
They ‘`could not`’ call him a Legit 7 ftr ?
Perhaps, they should have billed him a Legit … 300 pounder ! ?
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 10th, 2012
7:45 am
You people really think that the same coachs who let Josh shoot uncontested jumpshots all day will vote him into the big game?
Lol
SMDH
newkid
February 10th, 2012
7:46 am
@MC, any honest, even if anonymous, narrative from NBA coaches and assistant coaches on Josh’s game would be appreciated. Clearly the numbers tell us they’re not interested in voting him onto the All-Star team. More insightful would be their take on why he’s not worthy, and whether he is – or isn’t – a player they’d like to have if they’re attempting to win championships. thx
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 10th, 2012
7:48 am
LOL @ ppl hating on the Hibbert selection. There has to be a backup CENTER on the team people
honest_abe
February 10th, 2012
8:09 am
“You people really think that the same coachs who let Josh shoot uncontested jumpshots all day will vote him into the big game?”
HAHA too funny.
KCG
February 10th, 2012
8:23 am
If Josh Smith fashioned his gave after Dennis Rodaman instead of Arvydas Sabonis not only would he be an All Star but probably a Hall of Famer.
DS
February 10th, 2012
8:32 am
Stop writing Horford’s name with a T. There is no T in Horford.
Grandad
February 10th, 2012
8:37 am
I’m clearly not Josh’s biggest fan right now,
but, Paul Pierce ? c’mon now, I see Deng before I see Pierce ?
Hibbert was a lock from everything I read.
Back to Pierce;
lifetime achievement award as Kincade would say.
Josh may or may not have desrved to make it;
one could make a case for others;
Rondo, Varejao, Lou Williams, Greg Monroe, & Kyrie Irving;
obviously team records came into play as well.
One site – Hoops World, ‘`I think`’, had their guys vote and
the consensus was Ky Irving being selected.
In the west;
Dirk, same as Pierce – Life Ach Awrd
One of the two Utah guys deserved to get in: Milsap or Big Al Jefferson
Also;
like someone said, four pgs ?
Chris Paul, much like Melo, did he deserve it ?
Tony Parker [I know he made it] but a more deserving starter ? yes ?
Westbrook ? I prefer *Hardin to Westbrook on OKC as a player.
*[If I had to choose]
All in All
-It’s an exhibition-
Kinda like professional wrestling / who cares ?
‘cept for Josh,,,,, I know it mean’t something to this kid.
This time; I’m on Josh’s side !!
Mike is Back
February 10th, 2012
8:38 am
MC, here is hoping Dampier can rejuvenate his self enough to give us a few quality minutes…at this point…any help will do…same ole ASG.
Bad deal on Josh…if Josh does end up getting offered a sub SPOT…I hope he is humble enough to accept it…Don’t let the All Star voting…ruin what has been a phenomenal season thus far…stay on the grind.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
newkid
February 10th, 2012
8:51 am
Interesting, but not surprising, take of one Hawk on Josh Smith. This is from an early December, ‘11 article:
“Josh brings so many things to the table it’s priceless – not only offensively but defensively,” Pachulia continued. “If he plays the right way, uses his athleticism and plays smart he’s unstoppable. We’ve told him before millions of times and we still tell him in a good way, a positive way of course. We’re friends. As long as he’s doing that (playing smart) I’m sure everybody is going to be happy and no one will want to trade him. It’s really in his hands. He has the ability, trust me his potential is unbelievable.”
doc
February 10th, 2012
9:15 am
well vava i see you agree with what i alreayd wrote, problem is twin came in here about 6 years too late. man our big man retread rate just before they go on the retirement list is long. basg is the salvage lot for bigs.
now why did we never go after ken thomas in about ‘08? guess he will show in about ‘13-’14.
vava74
February 10th, 2012
9:20 am
newkid,
THAT is a perfect testament on why he has not been selected.
EVERYONE sees Josh squander enormous potential and he simply can’t help it.
He doesn’t want to be what he CAN be and concentrates in trying to be what he CAN’T be.
Still a valuable player IMO, but the frustration he brings to the table is very difficult to cope with.
To be perfectly honest, we now have two of those since Horford also does not want to be what he can be and wants to be what he will never be …
Oh brother…
JM
February 10th, 2012
9:20 am
I love how the most of the people saying that Josh shouldn’t have made the ASG are “supposed” Hawks fans. Way to support the team, guys!
JM
February 10th, 2012
9:23 am
D. the Hawks are a 4 [or perhaps a 5] seed during the All-Star selection process and Josh Smith is averaging career highs statistically such as 18-21ppg, 10-12rpg, 5-6apg, 2.5-3blks/gm and 1.8-2.5stls/gm while shooting a FG% of 53%-55%, a 3FG% of 33%-36% and a FT% of 75%-80%.
Dude, those are MVP numbers… He shouldn’t have had to put up MVP numbers to get into the damn ASG as a reserve!
vava74
February 10th, 2012
9:23 am
doc:
“now why did we never go after kurt thomas in about ‘08? guess he will show in about ‘13-’14.”
doc
February 10th, 2012
9:25 am
vava the prob with your talk about collins and him being a game changer and having the gall to compare what he does to what bowen did is bowen simply did it noght after noght game after game for years. shutting down the oppositions best. the spurs have not been the same since and to boot whenever it came time for a bog three he had the dagger ready, horry like. vava sorry that is insulting to any fan with reasoning ability. you got carried away.
anyway having been there at the game, ivan really was the guy in the shut down of love as he was to bosh. collins was in the game but they had another big for him to deal with a lot less mobility than love. you put collins on love alone for extended minutes and he is mincemeat, while love grabs another personal high in rebounds and scores at will.
STRETCH
February 10th, 2012
9:26 am
Wow, the next 7 or 8 games combined with the road trips are going to be brutal!
JM
February 10th, 2012
9:28 am
The above JM is a different JM, but I totaly agree.
Go Hawks!
KevinM
February 10th, 2012
9:29 am
This was Josh’s only chance to make the team as a Hawk. As long as we have Al, never will 3 Hawks go to the AS game.
IMO, he had to average a double/double to get there simply for the fact that he was picking up the slack with Al out.
Aren’t his numbers comparable to last year after 25 games?
MC, are you in Orlando tonight to see the debut of our new big man? I will be in attendance as this game is building some momentum to being a good one.
Astro Joe
February 10th, 2012
9:30 am
abe states in simply and succintly.
Josh remains his own biggest obstacle to being an All-Star.
drebaby
February 10th, 2012
9:31 am
Anyone who thinks J.J. should not have made the team,has to be a crackhead.He is clearly the second best sg in the East.Josh should have been an all star.I don’t get how Iggy made it before him.I think the coaches wanted to make sure that every team in the top 6 had at least one all star.I agree with Deng,but i question Iggy and Pierce making it before Josh.Iggy is not even the best player on that team,i would have voted L.Williams in before him.Oh well,maybe this will work out better for the team,i like to see Josh play with a chip on his shoulder.Go get it Smoove.
Grandad
February 10th, 2012
9:33 am
I’m not fallin’ for it !!
‘`Damp`’ not the answer nor the solution.
He may only be a 10 day fill in for ‘`99 cent cheeseburger`’ ?
When JCheese gets back, Damp should be gone – hope – !
-Then-
We can continue *our* quest for a Legit 7 ftr / Big Man !
-Now-
What I truly expect is Sund & co will try will try and pass off Damp
as the 2nd coming of …..well ….. the 2nd coming of “Damp” ?
As if the 1st Damp was HOF worthy ?
-Spin City-
Heather Locklear … my mind wanders dometimes…………………….
vava74
February 10th, 2012
9:35 am
doc,
I did not make a direct comparison between Collins and Bower/Battier.
I made a specific demonstration on how players can have horrible boxscores and still be very impactful.
I watched the Minny @ ATL game on league pass in the morning after, not live, so I had no stress blocking my ability to analyze the game calmly.
Collins had a few KEY possessions (3 or 4) in which he guarded Love in the left side of the box and Love HATED those possessions and shot horrible bricks over Collins. BRICKS.
After that, he went further and further away from the paint and that is when Ivan was glued on him since Ivan has the ability to defend Love playing face up to the basket (which Collins simply can’t).
Before those key possessions, Love was posting and shooting at will from the good side of box against both Zaza and Josh.
vava74
February 10th, 2012
9:42 am
KevinM
February 10th, 2012
9:29 am
Kevin, sell your tickets while you can and just watch this in the tube.
Dampier in his current state will be a completely immobile pile of lard in the lane and IF he gets any minutes Howard will simply dance around him for easy dunks.
Dampier already looked like crap last year, so one year and 40lbs after…
Zaza is good for short stretches because he is annoying – scratches and bites – in these type of games but he can’t hold on more than 15/20 minutes before collecting 4 or 5 fouls.
Our only chance is Ivan getting into Howard’s skin to the point of both getting a double tech.
Also, Josh is remarkably bad defending stretch PFs, so Ryan Anderson will probably have a career night from 3 point land.
doc
February 10th, 2012
9:43 am
i think ivan was guarding two guys then. the twolves had another very slow big in and that was collins guy and because of his lack of mobility and poor spacing collins was in a position to help. however collins and ivan played really well together and should both be commended as you tagalong reference to ivan in what you have written properly say. it wasnt collins alone. it is always battier and bowen on both ends of the court with complete games alone doing there thing and why never the twain should meet between those types and collins, apples and bananas.
Astro Joe
February 10th, 2012
9:46 am
I think it would be hard to notice 20-25 extra pounds on a 6′11″ frame. My guess, if Dampier appears bigger than his normal playing weight, then we’re likely talking closer to 40+ pounds of extra baggage. But for a 10-20 day contract with games against D12 and Bynum on the horizon, why not?
vava74
February 10th, 2012
9:52 am
doc,
Minny had Nikola Pekovic on the floor, who is 6′11” and 290lbs (and having a pretty decent season as a starter with Darko out).
Actually, Pekovic was hurting us a lot against Zaza as well and with Ivan and Collins on the floor we also played a bit of zone, hence both guys had possessions against both Love and Pekovic.
As for Bowen, you memory is clearly failing you since Bowen used to average between 6 to 8 ppg whilst playing 30+ minutes per game and this was with virtually nothing in all other departments (no rebounds, assists, blocks or steals).
http://www.nba.com/historical/playerfile/index.html?player=bruce_bowen
Najeh Davenpoop
February 10th, 2012
10:00 am
“LOL @ ppl hating on the Hibbert selection. There has to be a backup CENTER on the team people”
1. Why?
2. Bosh can be the backup center
O'Brien
February 10th, 2012
10:02 am
I think Josh should have made the team, but I think the onus is on him to do more, especially since he is more than capable.
The coaches are very inconsistent though, and they confuse me sometimes. I know they want to reward wining teams. The Bulls have one of the 2 best records in the East, so coaches are not going to send 2 Hawks players, but only one player from the Bulls. So I get that. Hence the Deng selection. But my issue with Deng is he has missed 25% of the season.
And although they want to reward winning teams, coaches turn around and send Deron Williams (who although he is having a great year statistically), his Nets team is one of the worst in the league. Plus haven’t they always said it’s easier to put up good numbers on a bad team?
I think the only reason Iggy made it is because they have to have somebody from the Sixers (who have a better record than the Hawks), so if it wasn’t Iggy, I assume it would have been Lou Williams.
MS. Bully
February 10th, 2012
10:02 am
Erick is one heck of a guy and he will prove he is worth giving him a chance. He is also from the real Dawgs of the SEC, Mississippi State!! Go Erick!!
Najeh Davenpoop
February 10th, 2012
10:03 am
“THAT is a perfect testament on why he has not been selected.
EVERYONE sees Josh squander enormous potential and he simply can’t help it.”
Still a dumb reason for not selecting him. If Josh is playing at 50% capacity and he’s still better than Deng playing at 100% capacity, then Josh should go, irrespective of whether or not he’s not playing up to his potential.
Still Laughing at Mike Bianchi
February 10th, 2012
10:06 am
I LOVE this Dampier pickup. the Bad Boys had the Jordan Rules and Larry Drew has the Dwight Rules.
the Dwight Rules are simple: throw every body over 6′9″ at Dwight and make the guards beat you
we only had 3 guys (4 counting Vlad but really?) that could do that: Josh, Zaza, and Ivan. now we have 4 (5) bodies we can throw at Dwight and keep the key guys (Josh, Joe, etc.) out of foul trouble
the Dwight Rules were 80% of the reasoning behind this pickup
Najeh Davenpoop
February 10th, 2012
10:08 am
Bruce Bowen career PER: 7.5
Jason Collins career PER: 7.2
Collins wasn’t and isn’t nearly as impactful of a player as Bowen, but vava74 has a point. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he started for an NBA Finals team.
Still Laughing at Mike Bianchi
February 10th, 2012
10:09 am
if Al was healthy and voters had a brain we’d have 3 All-Stars
newkid
February 10th, 2012
10:12 am
Vava, years ago I knew a cat (personally) who was a phenomenal prep and college player; seemed to have unlimited talent at the 3 and 4 spots. Seemed always to clearly and consistently be one of the most, if not the most, talented player on the court during his high school and college years. Big talent and a big head to match. Then he went to play for the Boston Celtics. After a couple years in Beantown I remember him once saying that he had no real functional idea what basketball was until he’d played in the Celtics organization. After having played elsewhere in the NBA and a bit of time in Europe, he believed that the Celtics organization was the only professional basketball organization and team culture with demonstrated effectiveness in forcing stubborn, reluctant ubber talented individuals to play effectively (and successfully) within a team concept.
That was quite some number of years in the past, and many other organizations may now be worthy of such praise. Don’t think the Hawks organization has quite gotten there. Josh won’t get there with this current Hawks organization and culture. I’m not a Celtics fan, I AM a Josh Smith fan. I’d like to see him in an environment where he is coaxed, swayed, cajoled into maximizing his natural talents by the sheer weight of the surrounding basketball culture. He needs Boston.
Rufus1
February 10th, 2012
10:13 am
Josh’s Snub,
Josh is inconsistent, undisciplined and considered to be uncoachable.
??????
If you were a coach starting a team, what player would Josh have be picked above…I don’t think any….He maybe the fourth player taken from this team(Joe, Al, Teague then Josh).
Coaches pick the players they want to coach….Many on this blog/city give Josh the benefit of the doubt for having POOR COACHING, but the COACHING FRATERNITY doesn’t…THAT IS WHY AL GETS PICKED ABOVE HIM.
PS. Only former players defend Josh, not coaches.
Slimjr
February 10th, 2012
10:30 am
Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
February 10th, 2012
1:59 am
“Earlier this evening, the Grandmaster (GM) figured everything out.
MC said in a tweet that the more we accomplish in the postseason, the more player incentives…
The more player incentives, the higher the payroll, meaning ASG (no idea what they call themselves these days) would have to PAY MORE AND WOULD EXCEED THE LUXURY TAX.
What does this mean? LD intentionally utilized his BS 2 foul rule in game 2 vs Chicago, costing us the series. That way, more player incentives would not have been achieved. We will never go past the 2nd round with this core and front office.
Checkmate.”
-Grandmaster JeJe (GM)
Your Freaking scary JeJe! But in a good way! Hahaha
I would not put it past these owners to pull some chit like this…
Hawks=Write off! That is all…
Slimjr
February 10th, 2012
10:35 am
‘Kevin, sell your tickets while you can and just watch this in the tube.
Dampier in his current state will be a completely immobile pile of lard in the lane and IF he gets any minutes Howard will simply dance around him for easy dunks.
Dampier already looked like crap last year, so one year and 40lbs after…”
50liter Kegs will blow ya right up! What a joke!
O'Brien
February 10th, 2012
10:36 am
Zaza wouldn’t be in so much foul trouble if he would stop setting those illegal/moving screens.
Najeh,
Whose spot would you give to Josh?