Atlanta Hawks: The ‘big’ issue
My blog people have spoken, and the vast majority of you say the Hawks need another center now and should sign a free agent or trade for one.
Rick Sund also has spoken, and he says: “It all depends on who you match up with [in the playoffs] and how you do it.”
“Some teams you’ve got to be able to match up big and some you’ve got to be able to match up small,” Sund said.
He’s right about that. Miami goes small a lot. Philadelphia does so when Spencer Hawes is on the bench. Chicago is smallish when it’s Joakim Noah instead of Omer Asik (though that’s happening less and less).
But the problem for the Hawks is they can’t always go big when they need to. Zaza Pachulia is it as far as effective two-way centers. At power forward, they’ve got slim Josh Smith, green (and limited) Ivan Johnson and perimeter-oriented Vladimir Radmanovic.
Al Horford, Josh Smith and Joe Johnson all came into camp saying the Hawks needed another center. In Sund’s view, he covered the position with Horford, Zaza and Jason Collins.
“I always start the season, everywhere I’ve been, with three point guards and centers just in case you lose one of them,” Sund said. “We started this with Al, Zaza and Twin. To me, three to start is good. We are looking and watching [at other options] but, who knows?”
The obvious hole in that analysis is that Sund counts Collins as the third center when really he’s a specialist suited for a narrow role. Collins’ on-court, off-court numbers at basketballvalue.com suggest he still has a positive effect on the defense but has been a major drag on the offense.
After starting Collins at center for three games, Larry Drew didn’t use him until garbage time against Cleveland and gave him DNP-CDs at Milwaukee or San Antonio. I’m assuming that’s an acknowledgment that Collins just isn’t very good when asked to do much more than keep strong post scorers away from the basket. His lack of mobility clearly is a liability when he’s forced to defend the pick-and-roll, chase down rebounds or close out on shooters.
Good centers are hard to come by so it’s not easy to just go out and get one. But there wasn’t much indication during training camp that Sund was even looking for another big. His comments now suggest that he really did think Horford, Zaza, Twin, Josh and Ivan provided enough depth in the power rotation. So the Hawks loaded up on guards instead.
Now that Kirk Hinrich is back, I know many of you want to trade him for a big. That’s a reasonable view, even if it seems as if I might be the only one who thinks Hinrich has real value for the Hawks.
Over his career, Hinrich has been a better offensive player than Jannero Pargo. Subjectively, I’d say Hinrich is Pargo’s equal at defending point guards. And Hinrich’s real value is in his ability to check two guards, which would come in handy against most any team in the playoffs but especially Miami (I remember how he used to irritate Dwyane Wade) and Philly.
But the reality is Pargo has proven to be an adequate backup point guard. The Hawks have other options to score and defend twos (even if J.J. and Willie Green don’t inspire as much confidence) . Meanwhile, the Hawks don’t have many good alternatives in the front court and they don’t like any of the free agents (that changes once Kenyon Martin is released from his Chinese Basketball Association contract).
All of those factors, in addition to Hinrich’s expiring contract, would seem to make him a good candidate to be traded. I’m still not sure if the Hawks are willing to trade for a player that has another year(s) on his deal–Sund didn’t want to discuss anything like that. If not , it probably limits the trade market for Hinrich since teams that acquire an expiring contract almost always are looking to get rid of players with additional years left on their deals.
Sund, by the way, offered this explanation of why the Hawks waived Donald Sloan: “We really like what Pargo has given us. He’s played a lot and [Jerry] Stackhosue gives us experience. Sloan, we liked him. I think he’s a guy who will be in the league.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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172 comments Add your comment
Trojan
January 27th, 2012
2:33 pm
We don’t need a great center (even though that would be nice). We need a defensive big to give up 15 minutes per game.
Come on Sund.
Terrell
January 27th, 2012
2:35 pm
You “Hawks Fans” are too funny. You continue to overvalue the players on this team. what makes you think a team is willing to give us a quality big for any of our players outside of Josh Smith and Joe Johnson?
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
2:36 pm
KevinM, I’m not saying get rid of Zaza. I’m saying I would like to see a defensive minded, rugged back up center to go along with Zaza (I.e. Kurt Thomas). I think Sund should be on the phone bringing in Rasheed for a workout, and seeing what he has left. Right now, the team is playing with one center (Collins doesn’t count). I say you interview Sheed before seeing if you need to trade for a center. I don’t care to see a starting caliber center come on the team, because then that will push Al in to the 4 when he comes back, and I think that’s a negative move.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2012
2:37 pm
drmaryb.[*_*].
On the NBA podcast, the host referred to Teague as an NBA version of the Honey Badger…A disruptive defensive force and a playmaker.
FreshmakerGT
January 27th, 2012
2:42 pm
Terrell is right on point. Why on earth would the Suns trade us a young center when they can just build around him? A lot of you guys act like these talented bigs are low hanging fruit that Sund is refusing to pick. They’re not. Getting a center of any quality is going to require giving up Josh or Teague (nobody’s taking JJ’s contract). If we traded Josh we wouldn’t have a PF since Horford’s out. Only way we had a shot at a trade was packaging Al and some other pieces and hoping to land Dwight. Obviously that’s not going to happen now. We’ve gotta roll with what we’ve got.
And why are any of you impressed with the Celtics? They’re a sub-.500 team lol. That loss says more about the Magic than it does the Celtics. The Hawks don’t make rallies like that because we’re hardly ever down by that many points in the first place.
Another GM
January 27th, 2012
2:42 pm
If I’m the GM in Atlanta I know I need a 7 ft center. I have three PF’s – Horford, Josh, and Marvin. Kaman is a legit 7 ft center that can play and be had pretty cheap.
I do my job as a GM and get Kaman here, end of story.
“You dont let a slick tire blow out right before the trip is over, you replace the tire and have no problems with the trip”.
FreshmakerGT
January 27th, 2012
2:43 pm
I’d go for either ‘Sheed like Ramon suggests, or K-Mart once he’s available.
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 27th, 2012
2:43 pm
2 Live stews!
Sekou Smith is on now and said re: The Hawks that, this team surprises and keeps proving everyone wrong with Horford going down. Sekou attributes the Hawks success to three players stepping up: Joe, Josh and Jeff.
Sekou said, The Hawks play and defensive play with or without Horford should be a problem for any team in the 2nd round, based on last season playoffs performance.
He thinks we are good as is. Hmmmm … No mentioning of being doomed without adding another big right now. Defense being the biggest difference.
FreshmakerGT
January 27th, 2012
2:44 pm
Another GM – Marvin is NOT a PF lol. And who would we trade to the Clips for Kaman, who’s making $14M btw?
Rufus1
January 27th, 2012
2:49 pm
14mil for an injury prone kamen is not cheap!
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
2:53 pm
DMB, it sounds like Sekou is saying Bibby and JC held the Hawks back the last 2-3 seasons, because minus the two of them, with more playing time for Kirk and Teague, Defense is the biggest difference. Who would’ve ‘thunk’ it? lol
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2012
2:54 pm
“A lot of you guys act like these talented bigs are low hanging fruit that Sund is refusing to pick. They’re not. Getting a center of any quality is going to require giving up Josh or Teague ”
They don’t need a “talented” big. They just need a physical, role playing big who will play D and rebound for 20 minutes a game. Those are available for far less than Josh or Teague.
The Hawks don’t need to bring in a new piece of the core, just a role player who can play center better than Ivan and Collins (and hopefully also Zaza).
JJ
January 27th, 2012
2:55 pm
No doubt the Hawks have played well since Al went down but a lot of that has to do with the schedule. Beat the scrubs and lose to the only 2 teams worth a d*mn on the schedule. The glaring issue is obviously the boards and defending the interior. Twin just ain’t gonna cut it and Zaza has his limitations.
To me, it’s not a matter of just saying that they are not as bad as predicted since Al went down. It’s a matter of being forward thinking and realizing that they would be that much better if they had a legit big to get them to the playoffs. Then add Al and they’d be a real force to deal with.
Of course, to expect forward thinking from a GM that makes comments like “our goal continues to be to MAKE THE PLAYOFFS” is simply not fair. I as fans we just need to accept the fact that the front office isn’t in this thing to win championships. They just want to make the playoffs. With that thought, maybe we are good as constituted.
JJ
January 27th, 2012
2:57 pm
Should say “I GUESS as fans we just need….”
MattP
January 27th, 2012
3:02 pm
FreshmakerGT,
Ever heard of the CP3 trade? Kaman is with the Hornets now, they are in rebuilding process now and could really use Kaman’s expiring contract. They will not trade Kaman unless it is worth it and Marvin/Kirk trade is not worth it.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2012
3:11 pm
Upon further review — shout out to Leuer’s mom for the video — Josh wasn’t nearly as responsible for Bonner’s 3s as I originally thought.
3 pointer #1: transition 3 caused by Ivan getting lost on D and everyone else scrambling to cover
3 pointer #2: caused by Joe getting beat by Gary Neal around a screen, forcing Josh to help and leaving Bonner open
3 pointer #3: Josh’s fault, getting caught ball watching and not following Bonner out to the 3 point line
3 pointer #4: Josh points to Marvin to pick up Bonner on the switch so he can rotate; Josh rotates to the open guy in the corner; Marvin fails to pick up Bonner in time, leaving him open for 3
Still doesn’t excuse him getting only 5 boards, but I still think his subpar game had more to do with bad matchups than him checking out mentally.
Rev in Tampa
January 27th, 2012
3:15 pm
najeh,
Keep pressing the Hinrich to Lakers for the trade exemption. It makes perfect sense. The Lakers are very weak at pg.
Hmmmm
January 27th, 2012
3:17 pm
ALRIGHT FORGET THIS. ANYBODY IN THIS BLOG OVER 7 FEET TALL? MEET ME DOWN AT PHILIPS, I’LL ACT AS YOUR AGENT AND WE’LL GET YOU A DEAL. CAN’T POSSIBLY BE WORSE THAN COLLINS LOL.
Reality Check
January 27th, 2012
3:23 pm
Why would the Lakers want Hinrich? They already have Blake. If they get a PG it will be an athletic guard who can push the tempo, and that ain’t Kirk.
FreshmakerGT
January 27th, 2012
3:25 pm
MattP – Good call. Forgot he was traded. Makes it even more difficult to acquire him.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2012
3:27 pm
AJ,
Why would KMart’s agent tell Sund his client is NOT interested in playing for the Hawks? The more suitors the better, so of course he would say he is interested (if they have had that conversation already).
If there is interest from a high profile playoff team (for example, Celtics, Heat, Bulls), I would be shocked if Kenyon Martin signs with the Hawks. Plus he has ties with Denver, so that is another option too.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2012
3:29 pm
SteveW,
I would be thrilled to have KMart on the team…as a backup PF. I dont think he will be that effective at Center. Plus at this stage of his career, I think he shoots a lot of jumpers.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2012
3:33 pm
Rim Protector WANTED!
As much as we need a rebounder, I think an athletic rim protector is more important. we have ppl who can rebound(Josh, Zaza, Marvin and Ivan), we only have one shot blocker…. That is why Kmart is a high priority for the Hawks.
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 27th, 2012
3:37 pm
“Bibby and JC held the Hawks back the last 2-3 seasons, because minus the two of them, with more playing time for Kirk and Teague, Defense is the biggest difference. Who would’ve ‘thunk’ it? lol” -Ramon-
_____________
Yeah Ramon, besides the big three stepping up, Sekou did mention the return of Kirk will be a big lift along with the tenacious DEENSE which seems solid and upgraded. I was surprised Sekou didn’t say we need to scramble and get a big. He went straight to the fact we put teams on notice when be battled the Bulls to six games and put a scare in them. Still, that was WITH Al. I beg to differ and maintain that we need a big man and quick!
IDK if Kito Benson can do anything useful though. These ASKG people are so infuriating! I hate them and, I NEVER use that word. I hate the word hate more than anything.
The Spurs just schooled us so bad, haven’t gotten over that debacle as of yet. Can’t wait until the next meaningful win and Detroit doesn’t count, unless we lose.
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
3:38 pm
OB, between the Bulls, Heat, Celtics, Hawks and even Magic (all teams with 2nd round aspirations) which ones are missing a starting big and which teams could offer a quality big an “easy” 20+ minutes each and every game? Just like TMac knew he could get consistent PT, plenty of FGAs all from a playoff-bound team (which made this a good destinatiion for him), these FA bigs likely view the Hawks in the same manner. There are no guarantees until a contract is signed, but I like our chances if the player is focused on a playoff team that can offer him consistent minutes (20+ each and every game).
And if any of these guys have decent hands and look at how many points Zaza fumbles away, then they are probably salivating at the chance of standingnear the rim (like Zaza) and waiting for the easy pass to convert.
KevinM
January 27th, 2012
3:42 pm
So where are all the Collins backers? I see people defending Zaza and I remember a few here saying we don’t appreciate Colllns. These 2 guys will fill limited minute opportunities at best. They can’t be depended on in long stretches.
My point is we need someone to take on starter minutes in the post, not some trial by committee.
Now I say I want a young guy that doesn’t cost too much to come in here, but in reality, Sund can bring someone in and LD will let him sit with few practices and not gain any confidence in him….we have seen this before, so the only way we ‘force’ LD to put a guy out there is to bring in a starter who will play big minutes.
Reality Check
January 27th, 2012
3:43 pm
“…’I think our players accept responsibility that the goal is still to make the playoffs,’ Sund said. …”
WELP! THERE YOU HAVE IT. ANOTHER LOCAL TEAM AFRAID TO USE THE ‘C’ WORD. JUST RAISE ANOTHER PLAYOFF BANNER AND HOPE THE FANS WILL SHOW UP, RIGHT? THEN GEARON CANT CRY SOME MORE ABOUT HOW THE UNFAIR PERCEPTION OF HIS TEAM.
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
3:43 pm
Last year, in 26 minutes/game, KMaret went for around 8.5 PPG/51% shooting/6 boards/2 assists and .7 blocks. It is probably not reasonable to ask a 34 YO to repaet that performance, but that would be exactly what we would need if he could do it as a center.
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
3:45 pm
K-Mart’s stats linked here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike01.html
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
3:46 pm
And hopefully, Jason Collins is recruiting his former New Jersey teammate as well.
KevinM
January 27th, 2012
3:51 pm
AJ, Kaman would be a big player if we could get him in here and ask the league to take on a couple of our lesser producers.
Speaking of NO, doesn’t Okafor play very well against D12? His FT% is a red flag like Howard. But his overall numbers would improve because we have such a big hole in the middle.
I would think Stern would have approve an Okafor move quicker than Kaman.
I would think getting Okafor gives us more chances to improve over the offseason as well with Al, Josh and Emeka to choose from. This bio sounds like exactly what this team needs:
“A defensive stalwart… Will block a lot of shots and grab a lot of rebounds… Great positioning and timing… Very intelligent… Bad free-throw shooter… Not very skilled offensively… Will probably never develop into a consistent scorer.”
Hinrich/Zaza/2nd rounder – would that get it done?
Mike
January 27th, 2012
3:53 pm
I think that Hawks organization needs to learn that you are playing for something higher than the playoff. We all know that it is easy to get there through the East but getting to ECF and Finals is a different.
Sund, Gearon, and rest of the Hawks wants to knons why they dont get no respect from anybody around here and everywhere else, it is because of statement like this. You guys have been the playoff for 4 straight years (5 this year) and you still want to make that your utlimate goal. Child please. They need to set their sets higher than this.
If they want to have fans coming back, then they have put in the effect to make things better, not being an “annual playoff fodder” team. Even you have to break the core to do, then do it. They are shooting themselves in the foot right now.
DS
January 27th, 2012
3:57 pm
I feel like a caveman reading Mike’s comments.
Shooter
January 27th, 2012
4:01 pm
Kaman ?……….Really ?
prison mike
January 27th, 2012
4:03 pm
I don’t know why some people give Sund a hard time. It’s obvious he is hamstrung by ownership.
Joe
January 27th, 2012
4:06 pm
If it is true that Joe, Smoove and Al, begged for another “BIG” during the off season, and Sund said “No, we are fine” then Sund is a idiot! Charles Barkely, words was right on! This team will never go anywhere, how could a hometown boy “Dwight” never want to play here? We dont need to blame coach Drew, he can only do so much, with what he have…how about some “Fire Rick” cheers at home games!
prison mike
January 27th, 2012
4:13 pm
I wouldn’t mind Kris Humphries. Maybe a three way like
Nets get – Trade exception, first rounder
Hawks get – Kris Humphries
Lakers get – Hinrich
There seems to be an issue with Kris and his bird rights but man I’ll take it.
W.R. Terrell
January 27th, 2012
4:14 pm
The HAWKS need this, the HAWKS need that. The HAWKS need to play basketball as a unit. Josh needs to be on the move and stay around the basket and give the damn ball to the guards, Joe needs to stop that damn “poundin, poundin and more poundin”. Pass the ball, play defense and hit the boards and they will be alright. The monies paid to the players is enough or should be enough to make them play above their potential. Then again that takes character and smarts, that’s what the HAWKS need.
crazy_88
January 27th, 2012
4:29 pm
Enter your comments here
LT
January 27th, 2012
4:29 pm
*Hi5* Grandad!
crazy_88
January 27th, 2012
4:35 pm
I said it once and I’ll say it again. Mgmt isn’t invested in winning a ring this yr. They like a lot of owners didn’t think that the season would actually happen. They have no $$$ and have no interest in paying a luxury taxes this yr. Once Horford went down it only cemented their thinking that his yr is a tax write off. They will go with this group as far as they can and over the summer they will look to trade Josh Smith and amnesty Joe Johnson and basically blow this team up and rebuild around Teague & Horford.
Ken Strickland
January 27th, 2012
4:51 pm
I wonder if the Hawks are willing to wait on KMartin because they’ve already gotten a committment from him. Since he bought his contract out and is no longer under contract to anyone, there can be no charges of tampering. He’s not as big or as tall as most of the FA centers still available, but he’s quicker, faster, heathier, more versatile, and far more athletic, which makes him a better fit for the Hawks.
MattP
January 27th, 2012
5:03 pm
I really do not see Sund making any big moves. Kmart will want more then we can offer, he will get it from other teams. I do not see them trading Hinrich because they need to cap space unless they are planning to amnesty Joe. Hinrich will only be appealing to the ones that have a bad contract and looking to lose it. Kaman is out of the question unless we are willing to give up more, and I am saying more then just Williams but who knows with Stern running the show.
I hate to say it but I think Sund will more then likely get a D League guy or just ride out the season as is.
cp
January 27th, 2012
5:03 pm
The Hawks needed more size before the season started. There were some cheap options out there but for whatever reason the Hawks didn’t bring anyone in. Collins just doesn’t do enough to help this team. I doubt any move is made. The front office is probably hoping that Al comes back in time for the playoffs. But even with Al back the Hawks still need more size.
Jase
January 27th, 2012
5:04 pm
MC when is Rick Sund contract up!!!!!!
MattP
January 27th, 2012
5:05 pm
Even if Al makes it back by playoff time he will not do much. Depending on how close to playoff he is let out, he will have to have limited minutes and he is going to be very rusty.
STRETCH
January 27th, 2012
5:05 pm
The Miami Heat, San Antonio Spurs, Los Angeles Clippers, Atlanta Hawks and New York Knicks are pursuing free-agent forward Kenyon Martin, according to league sources.
Martin has spoken with executives from each of the clubs and is hoping to make his decision next week.
The veteran of 11 NBA seasons will be eligible to sign and begin playing with a team as soon as the Xinjiang Guanghui Flying Tigers complete their season in the Chinese Basketball Association.
Martin’s priority is to join a contender on which he’ll have a sizeable role, according to a person close to Martin.
The Clippers and the Knicks can offer the $2.5 million mini-midlevel exception. San Antonio can as well, but it is unlikely to do so because of the luxury tax, sources said.
Atlanta is also limited by luxury tax concerns. Miami can only offer the veteran’s minimum of $1.4 million.
Wonder when is he free. Has anyone heard anything?
STRETCH
January 27th, 2012
5:06 pm
Ken Strickland, when did they get a commitment from him?
MattP
January 27th, 2012
5:06 pm
Jase,
Sund and Drew’s contract expiring after this season if I’m correct.
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
5:07 pm
MattP, no other team that will reach the 2nd round, has salary room to offer more than the veteran minimum to KMart. So that’s not going to be a factor in who has the most money.