Atlanta Hawks: The ‘big’ issue
My blog people have spoken, and the vast majority of you say the Hawks need another center now and should sign a free agent or trade for one.
Rick Sund also has spoken, and he says: “It all depends on who you match up with [in the playoffs] and how you do it.”
“Some teams you’ve got to be able to match up big and some you’ve got to be able to match up small,” Sund said.
He’s right about that. Miami goes small a lot. Philadelphia does so when Spencer Hawes is on the bench. Chicago is smallish when it’s Joakim Noah instead of Omer Asik (though that’s happening less and less).
But the problem for the Hawks is they can’t always go big when they need to. Zaza Pachulia is it as far as effective two-way centers. At power forward, they’ve got slim Josh Smith, green (and limited) Ivan Johnson and perimeter-oriented Vladimir Radmanovic.
Al Horford, Josh Smith and Joe Johnson all came into camp saying the Hawks needed another center. In Sund’s view, he covered the position with Horford, Zaza and Jason Collins.
“I always start the season, everywhere I’ve been, with three point guards and centers just in case you lose one of them,” Sund said. “We started this with Al, Zaza and Twin. To me, three to start is good. We are looking and watching [at other options] but, who knows?”
The obvious hole in that analysis is that Sund counts Collins as the third center when really he’s a specialist suited for a narrow role. Collins’ on-court, off-court numbers at basketballvalue.com suggest he still has a positive effect on the defense but has been a major drag on the offense.
After starting Collins at center for three games, Larry Drew didn’t use him until garbage time against Cleveland and gave him DNP-CDs at Milwaukee or San Antonio. I’m assuming that’s an acknowledgment that Collins just isn’t very good when asked to do much more than keep strong post scorers away from the basket. His lack of mobility clearly is a liability when he’s forced to defend the pick-and-roll, chase down rebounds or close out on shooters.
Good centers are hard to come by so it’s not easy to just go out and get one. But there wasn’t much indication during training camp that Sund was even looking for another big. His comments now suggest that he really did think Horford, Zaza, Twin, Josh and Ivan provided enough depth in the power rotation. So the Hawks loaded up on guards instead.
Now that Kirk Hinrich is back, I know many of you want to trade him for a big. That’s a reasonable view, even if it seems as if I might be the only one who thinks Hinrich has real value for the Hawks.
Over his career, Hinrich has been a better offensive player than Jannero Pargo. Subjectively, I’d say Hinrich is Pargo’s equal at defending point guards. And Hinrich’s real value is in his ability to check two guards, which would come in handy against most any team in the playoffs but especially Miami (I remember how he used to irritate Dwyane Wade) and Philly.
But the reality is Pargo has proven to be an adequate backup point guard. The Hawks have other options to score and defend twos (even if J.J. and Willie Green don’t inspire as much confidence) . Meanwhile, the Hawks don’t have many good alternatives in the front court and they don’t like any of the free agents (that changes once Kenyon Martin is released from his Chinese Basketball Association contract).
All of those factors, in addition to Hinrich’s expiring contract, would seem to make him a good candidate to be traded. I’m still not sure if the Hawks are willing to trade for a player that has another year(s) on his deal–Sund didn’t want to discuss anything like that. If not , it probably limits the trade market for Hinrich since teams that acquire an expiring contract almost always are looking to get rid of players with additional years left on their deals.
Sund, by the way, offered this explanation of why the Hawks waived Donald Sloan: “We really like what Pargo has given us. He’s played a lot and [Jerry] Stackhosue gives us experience. Sloan, we liked him. I think he’s a guy who will be in the league.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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172 comments Add your comment
Michael Cunningham
January 27th, 2012
12:36 pm
@Mike: “Regrade what Sund and MC says, we still thin in the front and we are one injury away from being lotto bound.”
regardless of what i say? i just wrote a story and posted a blog (which you are now commenting on) saying the Hawks are thin in the front. what is wrong with my blog people today?
Michael Cunningham
January 27th, 2012
12:38 pm
@Ramon: “MC, you should just stop asking Sund questions altogether. He never gives a straight up answer.”
well, i just keep asking.
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
12:40 pm
I don’t know why anyone thinks these free agents are going to command a big salary after missing anywhere from 33-50% of the season. Not to mention thatthe playoff bound teams don’t have salary cap space to offer any type of big salary. Seriously, do you think Kenyon is going to demand a salary that has him playing for the T’wolves? He’d be much better served playing for a team headed to the postseason where GMs will have more games to evaluate if he “still has it” in advance of next season.
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
12:41 pm
MC, how greatly different is the Hawks front office ran compared to your over teams covered in your career?
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
12:42 pm
MC, they want Howard, Gasol and Blake Griffin to join the team tonight in Detroit. And they will gladly give up Hinrich, Marvin and a 2046 2nd round pick to make all of that happen. Anything short of that is unacceptable.
Mike
January 27th, 2012
12:44 pm
MC,
Sorry about that, it just stuff like this, just boiled my blood. Nothing against you or anything like that, without your blog we wont even know whats going on. I am just trying to figure out what wrong about get a legit big or something like that via Trade or anything.
Michael Cunningham
January 27th, 2012
12:53 pm
@Ramon: “MC, how greatly different is the Hawks front office ran compared to your over teams covered in your career?”
i’ve covered the packers, brewers, dolphins, heat and hawks. i would tell you how i group them if you bought me a few beers.
Michael Cunningham
January 27th, 2012
12:57 pm
@Mike: no worries. . . . i agree the Hawks are thin in the front court. i thought so even when Al was healthy. Al, Josh and Joe thought the same. Sund decided to stick with a guard-heavy roster. i understand the Hawks needed some depth there, too, because of Hinrich’s injury. i just didn’t understand why, as far as i could tell, there wasn’t much of an effort to get a serviceable big.
Me
January 27th, 2012
12:57 pm
At this point MC the Suns would deal Robin Lopez, he is young and would be more productive than Collins who at this point is only holding a roster spot. We do need size. Sund has to know this, pretending to be a contender isn’t enough. The Hawks could use his offensive and defensive ability right now. At 24 yrs old, he is a steal.
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
1:01 pm
AJ, funny. I just want a big who can play good defense and rebound for 8-10 minutes a game, while keeping Kirk.
MC, I don’t drink alcohol, so I can’t do that one. But I will guess that Hawks are at the bottom tier of that group.
prison mike
January 27th, 2012
1:01 pm
We theoretically could trade Duck and Zaza to N.O. for Okafor. Stern obviously wants to keep payroll for them low for an owner and it saves them 7million from Emeka’s final year.
Also this years draft class looks good for bigmen. Also don’t forget Phoenix’s second round pick which should fall somewhere in the late 30’s.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2012
1:03 pm
So Sund sees Collins as our 3rd string center. With Horford going down, that would mean Twin is our backup Center. But yet the HC doesn’t play him. Sounds to me like HC and GM need to get on the same page.
I wonder what kind of PT Twin would get in the playoffs IF we don’t play Orlando? And there is also a possibility of Dwight being traded by then anyway, so who knows. .
As for Kenyon Martin, why would he sign with the Hawks? At a prorated vet minimum, I think he will have his choice of contenders. Miami, Boston, Chicago, Lakers etc. So why would he choose the Hawks?
Rick Sund needs to wake up.
Ramon
January 27th, 2012
1:03 pm
You know, if I am a GM and have been for over 30 years, without every seeing one of my teams in the championship round in any sports. I wouldn’t continuously answer questions as if I’m the smartest person in the room.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2012
1:05 pm
AJ,
Although weight issues are a strong possibility with the out of work centers, how do you know for sure?
What does it hurt to bring in Dampier, or Fesenko, or Gadzuric for a workout? If they stink up the joint, fine. Do not make an offer. But maybe one of them is actually in some kind of shape…You won’t know unless you bring them in for an audition.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2012
1:06 pm
“isn’t that what i wrote here?”
Usually I go through your post and reply to whatever I feel like replying to before reading the whole thing. In this case you talked about Kirk’s value for three paragraphs before getting to why he is a viable trade piece. I didn’t get that far before posting my reply, but yeah, after I read the whole thing I realized I basically ended up saying the same thing as you.
Jeff
January 27th, 2012
1:08 pm
And yet again more reason I dislike Rick Sund….
@MC, any chance of him getting fired?, They were quick to boot Mike Woodson out, why not Sund too?
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2012
1:08 pm
“Seriously, do you think Kenyon is going to demand a salary that has him playing for the T’wolves? He’d be much better served playing for a team headed to the postseason where GMs will have more games to evaluate if he “still has it” in advance of next season.”
Exactly. No veteran at this point is concerned about money as much as ring-chasing, and they will do what so many other veterans have done in the past and find some contender who will sign them to a vet minimum deal and give them a role in the rotation.
h
January 27th, 2012
1:09 pm
Trying to get a quality center is like trying to get a quality QB in the NFL: easier said than done.
Which NBA team has two quality centers with one available to trade? None. No NBA team is going to trade the one quality center they have without decimating their team.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:11 pm
The Big does not have to be a star. I just want a productive Center that can run the floor and defend against teams that does have size. What is so hard about fulfilling a roster with positions that are weak in some area?. Why would they even look at adding Collins back to the roster? Sund is letting not only the fans down but the current players are feeling let down also. You can clearly see it on the floor.
JJ
January 27th, 2012
1:11 pm
What about JaVale McGee? We don’t really need a scoring big, just someone that can defend and rebound. He’s pretty good at both, I think.
With Wash being such a mess, wonder if they’d consider a trade??
RealSquawk
January 27th, 2012
1:13 pm
MC I wouldn’t take what the blog people say today too seriously, it is Friday. Keep asking Rick those questions. Somebody has to. And I will definitely take you up on that offer for your inner thoughts on the organization.
From what I read today I think it is pretty weird that the Hawks have their three core players asking for something and them completely ignoring it. That just signs like a recipe for disaster.
That’s a big problem to me especially how they have completely ignored Al’s requests for like the past three years.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:17 pm
Remember this is the same team that quit on Woodson. I can see them doing the same on Rick Sund.
Afrazier
January 27th, 2012
1:17 pm
Why is it so hard to get a big. and i don’t mind the Dwilliams trade idea, but regardless we still need a big some how. I have a trade idea, hinrich,teague, picks for D.Will and M. williams,and a pick to the suns for lopez that would give us
D.Will
JJ
J.smith
Horfo when healthy
Lopez
good line up right
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2012
1:18 pm
“MC I wouldn’t take what the blog people say today too seriously, it is Friday.”
Yesterday was Thursday, tomorrow is Saturday, and Sunday comes afterwards. Fun, fun, fun, fun.
Afrazier
January 27th, 2012
1:19 pm
I’m sure D will would want to stay if he see’s us trying to win and with are bench we would be good instantly.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:20 pm
Sorry Jeff didn’t mean to repeat you. But I agree.
JJ
January 27th, 2012
1:23 pm
Not sure any lineup that has Smoove at the 3 is a quality idea.
prison mike
January 27th, 2012
1:24 pm
Quality enough to convince Dwight getting the hell out of Disney Land.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:25 pm
@Afrazier, Hawks only need is a Center. Robin Lopez can be got. I would not let Teague go anywhere, Marvin could say bye bye.
SteveW
January 27th, 2012
1:25 pm
I still like the idea of KMart and his toughness being here. Maybe he could only play a little C under George Karl, when Karl went small, but I think he could bring a physical inside presence to this team. He’s about as big as Ivan – taller than Ivan I think, as big as Anthony with the Heat, bigger than Josh – and some on this blog have advocated him at C from time to time. I’m not saying play Mart at C all the time, but he could be another Big down low.
I think KMart is around Taj Gibson size, he’s as big as Josh Powell who played some C (bad player I know), bigger than Joe Smith who’s played some C – he’s about as big as Kurt Thomas, maybe an inch shorter. I think the dude would be a great fit for a stretch run here. Just my thoughts.
I like Pryzbilla also – but I wouldn’t be surprised if Kito doesn’t end back up on this team. That kid has athleticism, heart, smarts – he just has a limited offensive game, and he’s rail thin. But with the right regiment, he could easily be 230-235 come April with legit hops and length.
Getting back to KMart – I’m too lazy to look this up, but isn’t Greg Monroe only 6-10 240? He’s playing C pretty well. And isn’t Hawes for Philly only 240? Noah 240? I know those guys are a little taller, but if Wes Unseld and Chucky Hayes can play C at 6-6, 6-7, a tough vet like Martin ought to be able to give us some minutes there.
Magic even won a championship playing C in the pinch as a rookie didn’t he?
SteveW
January 27th, 2012
1:29 pm
If we could pull off a Robin Lopez trade, I’m for that. He, ZaZa, Collins, and Ivan could be serviceable in the post.
Try out Pryzbilla, ‘Sheed, Dampier, Fesenko – see if those guys work.
MC – Thanks for the word on Al – I heard he can begin weight training the 1st week of March.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:29 pm
legit big PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SteveW
January 27th, 2012
1:32 pm
If Kito works hard, and with the dearth of Bigs in the NBA right now, I could see him as a 10-15 mpg rotational guy in the NBA – he’s got the physical tools and smarts. Just no offensive game at the NBA level really. Maybe a Taj-lite kinda guy, or even a little like Theo Ratliff.
SteveW
January 27th, 2012
1:35 pm
Certain players fit with certain systems. Javale Mcgee fits with the Hawks athleticism, just as Teague does.
And KMart fits as an older vet with a chip out to prove something. He just fits.
I sure wouldnt’ mind if Kaman could be extracted from NO, even though he doesnt’ fit quite as well, he’s a good baller when healthy.
Me
January 27th, 2012
1:36 pm
Well, We are all just hoping. Sund isn’t going to make any moves and if he does I am sure it would be nothing that would help the team, only pull them farther back. Sund save yourself and get Robin Lopez now. Suns cant use him too much depth at that position.
hawks_4_life
January 27th, 2012
1:38 pm
THIS IS FROM ESPN INSIDER:
The Atlanta Hawks are without starting center Al Horford for most of the season, however it sounds like general manager Rick Suns is content to not add a big man, despite having an open spot on the roster after waiving guard Donald Sloan on Thursday.
“I always start the season, everywhere I’ve been, with three point guards and centers, just in case you lose one of them,” Sund tells The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “We are looking and watching [for other options], but who knows?”
The Hawks are struggling to rebound and defend the post, but Sund doesn’t think it’s a major problem since other teams in the East lack height, too.
“Some teams you’ve got to be able to match up big, and some you’ve got to be able to match up small,” Sund said.
The Hawks are hovering around the tax line and that might be another reason Sund won’t make a roster move.
KevinM
January 27th, 2012
1:46 pm
Again, another Sund interview without any substance. Collins as a 3rd stringer? Who didn’t know that?
I see Ramon wanting a defensive center for 8-10 mpg. Isn’t that as effective as Zaza is now? IMO, he and Marvin are the same player; they can produce, but its not more than often and that kills this team’s growth.
I see plenty of teams struggling in games this year in a condensed version. No one team truly is cruising through the schedule. We’re just 2.5 games out of the 1 seed and Sund sees that as being very competitive. I just don’t see us moving any major parts, especially with Al down.
Sounds like Sund expects the roster to play well enough to get to the playoffs and wait on Al to make the big difference. We still have defensive issues at that point, so we are back to Day 1 of this season.
We have who we are going to play with the rest of the year.
Has anyone thought about what happens if we ended up with D12 to go along with Smoove? 2 guys who right now combined are 142-294 from the line (48%)…I know the opposition’s strategy at the end of games for sure. The need for D12 is great, the reality of it happening is we don’t have enough to entice Otis.
I’m hoping for a young big, not too expensive, salary or the loss of our roster to get him.
Does a Kirk/Zaza combo work to get Kaman in here? Would you do that deal to try and make a statement now? I know Kaman’s health is always in question, but he is playing for his next contract this year.
But, Al being injured saves Sund from making a move because he isn’t going to take a chance and weaken this team anymore than where we are now.
ILL-Logical
January 27th, 2012
1:46 pm
What MC is laying out is why there will br no activity by the team: money,primarily and the need for a floor general ie, someone to NOT defer to Joe/Josh on the floor.
With reference to what the Hawks need in terms of a 5, there 2 perspectives to consider; short term-this season and long term-the next 3 years.
This season, with Al’s return in question and the Gearon LLC ’s uncertain finances, Benson appaers to be the choice. He is a known quantity in terms of ability and ,of course ,cost. My guess is that the NDBL experience is to get him into playing shape by the playoffs.
Long term, the picture is somewhat uncertain. First, how long will the Gearon LLC folks hold on to the franchise. Not long is my quess. In the next 3 years they must find a way to continue to meet payroll with Joe’s escalating salary coupled with a declining gate. Based on these factors, Marvin and Zaza are history. josh(with a little j) may bolt for greener pastures because I don’t see any extension from the financiallly challenged owners forthcoming.
And last but not least, what player in his prime wants to play for this organization?
MC is laying out the facts,you just have to put them in context.
KevinM
January 27th, 2012
1:53 pm
With that preface, we bring you these comments from Dwight Howard in the Boston Herald when asked if he would consider playing in Boston.
“Always. Always,” Howard told the Herald. “I’d always listen to a team like that.
“My thing is I want to win. It’s not something like I’m doing this for money. I win. I want to do it my way.”
You aren’t getting any quotes from D12 about the Hawks. Based on our frustration, can you blame him?
The Truth
January 27th, 2012
1:53 pm
“Rick Sund also has spoken, and he says: “It all depends on who you match up with [in the playoffs] and how you do it.”
“Some teams you’ve got to be able to match up big and some you’ve got to be able to match up small,” Sund said.”
Sund again validates why he is one of my favorite target of criticism. The stupidity that he utters makes you wonder how on earth he has been a GM for so long. BTW “Slick Rick”, don’t you dare change and shift the subject; we’re not talking about playing “small ball” here, we’re talking about playing “big ball”.
MLK called that trick out long time ago in his famous August 28, 1963 speech at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D. C – “governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification”
If Sund was our military general preparing us for the battle to win a championship, we would surely lose the war. Like war, there maybe some battles fought and won playing “small” ball. But your enemy only fights that way to exploit that perceived weakness. However, if your enemy thinks you have a weakness on the front-court, he will change his strategy accordingly and play you with a big lineup.
The point here is, you have to be prepared for both strategies and right now, we’re not. This Hawks team is “butt-naked” and extremely venerable against teams with a big lineup strategy.
The dumb-azz Sund should read some history, gets some ideas from some of our great military generals like Colin Powell. He advocated deploying U.S. forces in combat only for clear political objectives, and then applying overwhelming force to achieve a quick victory. An overwhelming force in the NBA would be battling opponents who seek to deploy any strategy, “small ball” or “big ball”.
We must match and overwhelm them with our “small ball” and “big ball” to win a championship.
So these comments from him are totally BS. We know manure when we smell it. Hawksville is having to stomach this crap from Sund (c/o Gearon) because this team current record is 13-6 ahead of Orlando. That may change after March.
MC please revisit this conversation with Sund after March , then watch his “interposition” change if we are on the decline.
We Shall See
Aytunstoppable
January 27th, 2012
1:57 pm
We haven’t had a “true” Center since big Deke. All I can say is if we had Al I’d say we were contenders atleast to get to the ECF. But now if they can keep winning and hold out I don’t care anymore what they do. Its obivous we can’t count on the GM or the owners so we should just root for whoever drew puts on the court. A hope joe, josh, and teague can hold down the court.
SteveW
January 27th, 2012
1:57 pm
E’twaun Moore, who some of us wanted the Hawks to draft – he went to Boston at #55 – played great and really led that charge back from 27 down against the Magic last nite. Good kid from what I hear – hope he does well in the League.
Aytunstoppable
January 27th, 2012
1:59 pm
because honestly I’m tired of seeing people on MC’s blogs bashing the players when they’ve been killing it for 5 years. Sure there some mental toughness that needs help there but we got the players. we just have a terrible GM and terrible Owners. Some nights I still question drew as a coach but he has done pretty well.
Astro Joe
January 27th, 2012
2:04 pm
OB, I think it is quite possible (and even likely) that Sund has confirmed with Kenyon’s agent that he has a high level of interest in playing for the Hawks. The Hawks FO keeps things too close to the vest for that option to have been ‘leaked” without some merit. Either that, or it is a smoke screen.
But in general, I reject the notion that if we don’t read about it, it isn’t happening. Francisco Elston supposedly signed a deal today with the 76ers. We may have kicked the tires on him as well as all of the other guys out there. And again, as long as there is a league-wide shortage of quality bigs and guys like Pryzbilla, Rasheed, Fesenko, Dampier, Gadzuric, and others are at home playing 2K12, my bestguess if they are either not ready to contribute or teams are waiting for a big trade to happen before settling for one of those guys.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2012
2:14 pm
“This season, with Al’s return in question and the Gearon LLC ’s uncertain finances, Benson appaers to be the choice. He is a known quantity in terms of ability and ,of course ,cost. My guess is that the NDBL experience is to get him into playing shape by the playoffs.”- ILL-Logical
Benson is going to be the Man. He brings 4-5 of the things we(Hawks) need and what ASG wants…Size, athleticism, shot blocking and he’s CHEAP! We only have one athletic “big”(I use that word lightly..Josh 6′8) on this team. He also has a decent offensive game and they DRAFTED HIM. I would also argue, that Benson’s ability as shot blocker and length, could be as effective as Ivan’s toughness or Vlad’s 3pt ability.
+++++++++++++
The Doctors believes Al could be back in Mid-April…2 weeks before the start of the playoffs…nothing will happen until the truth is known about Al.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2012
2:22 pm
“OB, I think it is quite possible (and even likely) that Sund has confirmed with Kenyon’s agent that he has a high level of interest in playing for the Hawks. The Hawks FO keeps things too close to the vest for that option to have been ‘leaked” without some merit”- Astro Joe
I wondered the same thing when I saw that quote.
jon
January 27th, 2012
2:27 pm
still think not sending you on road trip is the minor leagues! Either you cover the team or you dont!
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 27th, 2012
2:27 pm
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle!
Jeff Teague is amazing! For the first time since Mookie, we don’t NEED a PG. Jeff is hands down better than DWill and he is NOT a coach killer with a bad attitude.
Jerry Sloan, told DWill to go out there and run a SPECIFIC play! DWill ignored this and ran a play of his own liking. Whether the changed play worked or not? DWill was insubordinate and defiant to a HOF Coach. That led to a sideline blow up which carried over into the locker room and the old man Sloan went reverse – Latrell Spreewell on his player, and held to be held back.
The following day, Sloan retired – FOREVER! Today’s player at times are deemed UNCOACABLE. So to the blogger that thinks we need a PG? NO, we don’t. Jeff is a future AS, possible Super Star with the right coach.
WE GOT NEEDS! A big man – period. Even with AL, we are just too small to be any type of contender. Capiche’?
jon
January 27th, 2012
2:29 pm
oh yea, thank you for taking time to speak to my son when u were in jersey last week.
Trojan
January 27th, 2012
2:31 pm
Our whole team is championship quality and depth except for the center position.