Atlanta Hawks: About their defense
Bradford Doolittle was at Hawks-Bulls and writes a thoughtful piece at Basketball Prospectus about his observations of the Hawks’ (so far) improved defense (ranked third in efficiency before tonight’s games). It’s worth a read.
In the post, Doolittle says the Hawks made “no major personnel additions to explain the defensive improvement.” But I think they have and it (possibly) does.
(All of the following comes with the necessary Small Sample Size Qualifier.)
The Hawks have more defensive talent and depth than last season (and probably more versatility, too). It’s now more Jeff Teague (not new, but new to getting most of the point guard minutes) and Jannero Pargo, no Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford. It’s more Tracy McGrady (size, rebounds) and Vladimir Radmonovic (steals, blocks), no Mo Evans and Damien Wilkins. It’s (eventually, I’m assuming) more Zaza Pachulia, no Josh Powell.
Look at Atlanta’s on-court, off-court numbers at basketballvalue.com. Notice that all of the bench guys have better defensive ratings than all of the starters. There are likely factors at play here beyond the Small Sample Size Qualifier–for instance, the Hawks have yet to face a team with much scoring depth–but so far there’s a striking difference in the distribution of those numbers as compared to last season.
Doolitttle also writes: “There was nothing schematically that I saw to explain Atlanta’s defensive success. We’ve seen in the past that Atlanta is capable of putting the screws to teams defensively as they did during last year’s playoffs and perhaps Drew’s insistence on that approach has simply gotten through.”
I think this, in combination with better defensive players playing move minutes, might help to explain the improvement (so far).
Other than the occasional trapping and ball pressure and the zone alignments used at times against Miami and Chicago, the Hawks haven’t noticeably altered their schemes. But, subjectively, they are playing defense with more vigor and they have the long, athletic players to make things happen when they commit to it. With the exception of their game against Heat, whom the Hawks wisely wanted to slow down, I think they so far are meeting Larry Drew’s goal of “being a little more of the aggressor.”
There are some numbers that may support that subjective view.
Before last night’s games, the Hawks ranked eighth in opponent turnover rate. They ranked 29th in that category last season. Atlanta so far has the eighth-best opponent assist rate this season; last season its opponent assist rate was ninth-worst.
With the Small Sample Size Qualifier in mind, perhaps those numbers mean the Hawks are making opponents play faster and sloppier. According to Synergy Sports Technology, the Hawks rank fifth in the league in points per play allowed (0.81). They are No. 1 against post-ups and–surprise!–No. 4 defending in transition. Plus, Atlanta is holding opponents to 60.8 percent shooting at the rim, ninth-best in the league.
Some individual players also are making more box score defensive plays.
Teague has so far maintained his career steals rate while playing more minutes (literally–at this moment his steals per 36 minutes is exactly the same as during his first two seasons). Horford has seen a spike in his blocks and steals rates. Marvin Williams’ steals rate is up.
The other day at shootaround I asked Jerry Stackhouse which team in his career he considered to be the best defensively. He picked his Dallas teams from 2004-05 to 2008-09. Those units’ defensive efficiency ranks, in order: 9th, 11th, 5th, 9th, and 17th. Avery Johnson was the coach for 18 games of Stackhouse’s first season in Dallas and the all of the next three, while Rick Carlisle was coach for the fifth year.
So what were the characteristics of those teams? Stackhouse:
Everybody was just looking to help each other. We assumed that–even though we had good individual defenders–we assumed everybody was a bad defender and all four guys had to help. Like, if a guy was isolated on the wing and even though we knew his guy was guarding him, everybody leaned to help. You had to stick to the principles. We always said, ‘We are not allowing middle.’ If you allowed middle, you knew and everybody knew that you were the breakdown on the play whether they scored or not. They got into the paint and they put us under more stress than they had to because you allowed middle. A good defensive team has got to hold each other accountable. They know when and where they make mistakes. It don’t have to be pointed out to you that you made a mistake. You were the first one to know, ‘Damn, I made a mistake.
And what is the defensive potential of this Hawks team?
“It’s there, man,” Stackhouse said. “We have just got to harp on it a little bit more. In training camp, that’s all you are focused on. Then when it gets into the crux of the season, you revert back to bad habits. The system is built up, and if you do something against it, there is nothing built in to help. That’s what I see this group has got to get.”
Stackhouse added that the Hawks have the physical tools to be an elite defensive team: “That’s half the battle. It’s one thing if you can’t do it. We can do it.”
If the Hawks can keep up this defensive effort once the The Small Sample Size Qualifier no longer applies, they could be on their way to improving as a team with the same core.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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185 comments Add your comment
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
3:01 pm
MOREHOUSE MAN,
KNIGHT IS AS RESPONSIBLE AS WOODSON, IF NOT MORE. HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED ON THE SPOT FOR EVEN SUGGESTING THE SHELDON WILLIAMS PICK. SHELDON WILLIAMS, BILLY? REALLY? REALLY? WOODSON WASN’T GREAT BUT HE WAS GIVEN A BAD HAND FROM AFROMAN.
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
3:01 pm
Wabe
January 5th, 2012
8:59 am
“Hope Wade and LBJ play…
But something’s telling me they’ll both be out. I think at least one of them will be sitting. Probably LBJ.”
Dont matter who plays or not. The Hawks need to come out and bury this team from start to finish!
Talk about sending a message?
Been a Tmac Fan
January 5th, 2012
3:08 pm
@Mike
You can’t Get better giving up two Allstars in Josh Smith & horford or Joe Johnson. I dont care if its DH12, Kevin Love, or anybody else.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
3:14 pm
D12 leads the league in rebounding, ahead of Love.
Anyone have a trade that makes sense after what we have seen during our 4-2 start? Would ORL even consider an offer from Sund?
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
3:18 pm
If D12 is available for Joe & Al, I jump on that one quick. Right now, our go-to is Joe, and we all know what Joe gives us.
It doesn’t matter if we take on other parts…..we could have:
Josh
D12
Marvin
Teague
a big time SG opening…
What a different look this team would have on both ends.
MattP
January 5th, 2012
3:20 pm
KevinM,
I don’t see Orlando taking Joe’s contract.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
3:22 pm
We have 2 guys in the Top 50 in offensive rebounding:
Al at 27th, Zaza at 33…
1 guy in defensive rebounding in the Top 50….
Josh at 17th…
Surprised on both ends….
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
3:22 pm
KevinM
Josh
D12
Marvin
Teague
a big time SG opening…
What BIG time SG? What are we going to give-up to get him?….Marvin, Josh or Teague?
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
3:23 pm
“Rebounding wins Championships” Grandad
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
3:26 pm
If The Heat players are HURT….That is their problem.
Astro Joe
January 5th, 2012
3:34 pm
Josh is NOT an All-Star people. Unless being in the Saturday night events makes you an All-Star. By that logic, Nate Robinson is an All-Star.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
3:36 pm
Rufus, I said a big time opening…..it doesn’t mean we could get one easily.
I would roll the dice and take that chance…….get me a defensive guy like Raja Bell to fill that role in the interim….Joe’s 16.0 points he is averaging will have to come from somewhere else. Give me an Arenas to fill it and share with T-Mac and KH when he returns.
Been a Tmac Fan
January 5th, 2012
3:36 pm
This is real Life. Nba 2k12 wont even accept those trades you people are wishing for lol smh.
Been a Tmac Fan
January 5th, 2012
3:42 pm
Josh Smith is an AllStar material. Thanks to Lebron, Melo, & Pierce he went make it. The only thing wrong is not consistent on his jump shot thats all. Other that that im taking him anyday of the week. not as a number 1 go to but as a basketball player.
O'Brien
January 5th, 2012
3:49 pm
From ESPN;
The Sacramento Kings fired coach Paul Westphal on Thursday, cutting ties after two-plus seasons amid a slow start and an escalating dispute with young center DeMarcus Cousins.
In two-plus seasons leading the Kings, Westphal finished with a 51-120 record..
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
3:50 pm
there will soon come a day when we communicate soley through abbreviations. lol smh rofl wtf btau gata……………. what a sad day that will be.
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
3:51 pm
28% shooting over the past 5 years( almost 1800 jumpshots attempted /16-22 foot range) does not become AllStar material, sorry…
If he cut that out, maybe….
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
3:52 pm
“Josh Smith is an AllStar material. Thanks to Lebron, Melo, & Pierce he went make it. The only thing wrong is not consistent on his jump shot thats all.”
ha! i’m all star material myself. the only thing wrong is i’m 5′8 with a 2 inch vertical. but other than that i’m ballin!
O'Brien
January 5th, 2012
3:53 pm
From the rosen article;
HERE’S HOW ATLANTA CAN WIN:
* Change zone formations to keep the Heat off-balance. The bigs also need to execute quicker, more effective baseline rotations to hinder LBJ’s dynamic cuts.
* Even in their routine one-on-one situations there must be more player and ball movement to make Miami pay dearly for double-teams.
* Josh Smith must avoid launching 3-balls and driving into crowds. He has to get viscerally involved in the offense.
* Horford has to initiate his low-post moves quickly before the doubler can arrive.
* The bigs have to provide more aggressive help on screen/rolls, especially on pin-downs for Wade.
* Teague has to get a better read on the defense before uncorking risky passes.
* Their transition defense has to improve. This is simply a matter of pure hustle.
* Joe Johnson has to have his mojo working.
* Tracy McGrady must continue to recapture the rapture and be a high-volume point-maker off the bench.
* JJ, T-Mac and Jannero Pargo have to be accurate from beyond the pale to stretch Miami’s defense.
With Wade and LeBron possibly not playing, there is “No Excuses” (LD’s locker room sign) for the Hawks to lose this game. Not to mention, Miami played last night.
O'Brien
January 5th, 2012
3:57 pm
More from Rosen; 2 of his 5 things to watch.
3.Notice how Miami’s interior defense overplays Horford’s right hand.
5.How many ticks are left on the shot clock when Smith casts off a long-distance prayer?.
I’ll say it again. Josh Smith’s biggest weakness is his mentality/stubborness.
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
4:10 pm
KevinM
It isn’t just Joe’s pts, he gets doubled and that make is easier for our OFFENSE to score. It is not a CRIME that Joe isn’t DWade or Lebron but he is still very good. You can’t GUT a good team just to get a STAR and become WORSE.
—————————————————————————
For those who complain about Joe’s MONEY
Joe isn’t OVERPAID, DWade and Lebron are UNDERPAID. The NBA has a pay ceiling, that is why Joe looks like he is OVERPAID.
Tyson Chandler makes 4yr 60mil= 15mil a year.
Boozer 5yr 80mil=16mil a year
David Lee 5yr 80mil= 16mil a year.
Chris Bosh 5yr 95mil= 19mil a year(the same as Lebron and DWade)
Deandre Jordan 11mil a year.
Caron Butler 9mil a year.
Amare 5yr 99mil = 20mil a year
BDavis 13mil a year
Ben Gordon 10mil a year
Bibby 1.4mil a year…I am not LAUGHING.
Gilbert
Rasheed
Jamison…….etc.
The NBA is FULL of OVERPAID players, that is just this LEAGUE….GET OVER IT!!!
I am not willing to go back to being a 20 WIN TEAM, just to get rid of Joe’s Contract.
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 5th, 2012
4:14 pm
Down Graded!
“I don’t see Orlando taking Joe’s contract.”
____________
Otis will trade for anything. Bees-Knees Arenas @ 23M? Rashard Lewis @ 23M? Why not Joe?
JM
January 5th, 2012
4:23 pm
Gotta agree that Josh is all star material. Mainly because, other coaches and past coaches/current analyst have said the Hawks have three AllStar caliber players. Also, so what he has a low % from 15 feet. I bet D12 does too, and he is an allstar right. People don’t say he is an all star caliber shooting guard. SMFH. Perspective people, how many players fill the stat line like Josh. He’s not perfect but he is damn good and he plays for the team you are supposed to be rooting for. STOP HATING and blaming every other player and see where this team can go with the talent they have.
Go Hawks!
MattP
January 5th, 2012
4:24 pm
Rufus1,
Just because there are other overpaid players doesn’t mean we will lose bad without Joe. Joe is not clutch, Joe doesn’t score 25+ anymore, he is getting slower on defense giving young okays like Martin anything they want. For him to make around 20mil next season and rising seasons after that is a joke when they have Amnesty. Joe does help this team but not worth locking up 20mil. We could get a person just as good for cheaper allowing us to get a better bench, or would you rather have Pargo and Green? lol. We got lucky at getting McGrady for vet min, imaging if he went to another team, Hawks would really suck.
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 5th, 2012
4:24 pm
Swahili! (an African dialect)
“btau gata……” -Astro Joe-
___________
OK, I’ll bite here: What does “batu” and” gata” stand for?
I gotts’ brush up on my english. (rof-ktc) kicking the couch!
LOL! Pretty soon, we’re gonna’ need a new dictionary to communicate our new language – heh?
MattP
January 5th, 2012
4:26 pm
drmaryb.[*_*].,
Didn’t Orlando give Lewis that massive contract? And they took Arenas contract because they got rid of Lewis in that same trade.
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
4:26 pm
Diaw was living proof that the only thing easier than scoring for D’Antoni’s old Suns teams is scoring against D’Antoni’s Knicks. Diaw happened to play a season for Woodson with the Atlanta Hawks, and didn’t exactly remember any particular defensive genius. “When I was playing for him in Atlanta, I couldn’t tell if we were playing great defense,” Diaw said with a laugh. “We won 13 games.” Yahoo! Sports
This is Funny…
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
4:27 pm
ISO JOE!
Are you folks aware that Joe is one of the main reasons why this squad has made the playoffs 4 straight years…W/O Joe, does All NBA Dirk Jr get us there? Does Josh with his permanently broke jumpshot get us there? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm….I’m just saying…..
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
4:31 pm
“Also, so what he has a low % from 15 feet. I bet D12 does too, and he is an allstar right.”
not an accurate comparison. yes d12 has a low pct beyond 5ft, but he doesn’t jack up jump shots all game long either. he knows his place and doesn’t force things unlike josh who sitll can’t figure out what his strengths are. nobody is denying his natural abilities it’s his decision making that makes front office personnel and coaches alike look at him with a big red flag.
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
4:37 pm
MattP
Name the Person?
Kmartin call BALL. That is why he makes 14mil a year. When you talk about Kmartin’s game against Joe, don’t forget the 4-17 by DWade. This is the NBA, any player can have a GOOD game at anytime. Joe is the BEST PLAYER on a consistent playoff team….When he is nolonger the BEST PLAYER or we stop making the PLAYOFFS, then I will agree with you.
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
4:40 pm
AL HORFORD PROVIDED STABILITY IN THE MIDDLE AND BROUGHT SOME MATURITY IN HIS ROOKIE YEAR. PEOPLE CAN’T DISCOUNT THAT. MIKE BIBBY, JOSH SMITH, ETC WERE THE ‘LEADERS’ OF THAT TEAM BUT THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IMMATURE AND REFUSE TO TAKE CRITICISM.
HORFORD CAME FROM A SYSTEM IN FLORIDA WHERE PLAYERS KNEW THEIR ROLES AND STUCK TO THEM. HORFORD WILL NOT BE A 20-10 GUY, HE IS MORE LIKE BUCK WILLIAMS OR HORACE GRANT. NOT A SEXY COMPARISON BUT STILL VERY VITAL COGS ON GREAT TEAMS.
BigTimeTECHFan
January 5th, 2012
4:41 pm
who is the 7′9″ 390lb center from Sinagal the Hawks are talking to, is he any good?
JM
January 5th, 2012
4:46 pm
All i’m saying is that there is a lot made about % beyond the paint but nobody is saying he’s good because of his J. He’s good because of everything else he does on the court and to dismiss that because he’s not driving to the basket everytime he gets the ball doesnt make much sense to me. Does he need to improve the jump shot, yes, but that doesn’t diminish everything else he does. He does settle for the jumper at times when he shouldn’t but so do many other players. Dude is one of our best players.
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
4:50 pm
SEVEN YEARS INTO YOUR NBA CAREER, YOU KNOW WHAT A PLAYER IS, AND SHOULDN’T EXPECT IT TO CHANGE. JOSH HAS AN OUTSIDE CHANCE TO MAKE AN ALL STAR TEAM SOMEDAY, BUT THE COACHES PERCEPTION OF HIM BECAUSE OF HIS TERRIBLE SHOT SELECTION IS WHY IT’S DOUBTFUL THEY WILL EVER PICK HIM.
THE BEST WAY JOSH CAN IMPROVE HIS IMAGE AND START GAINING SOME RESPECT IS TO BECOME A DEFENSIVE CENTERPIECE LIKE BEN WALLACE TO DETROIT OR KG TO THE CELTICS. HE CAN BE A LEADER THAT WAY BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT END OF THE FLOOR.
HIS HANDLE ISN’T GOOD ENOUGH TO BECOME A GREAT OFFENSIVE PLAYER. JUST ONE OR TWO DRIBBLES AND SCORE IS ALL. THAT’S WHAT THE HAWKS NEED FROM HIM. SOME OF YOU DON’T REALIZE IT BUT JOSH AND AL’S SKILL SETS COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER VERY WELL AS LONG AS BOTH PLAY TO THEIR STRENGTHS.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
4:50 pm
Rufus, what team do you know that has a contract like Joe’s that WILL NOT go into the luxury tax to advance further in the playoffs?
Joe’s contract is choking, and if you get D12 in the process, where does that say we are a 20 win team?
Apparently, you value Joe’s contract as much as Gearon and Sund does.
Elite is not in Joe’s resume.
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
4:51 pm
hmmmm: try lower caps and people might actually read some of your posts.
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
4:52 pm
TECHNICALLY I JUST GAVE PROPS TO BILLY KNIGHHT FOR DRAFTING AL AND JOSH. THAT COULD BE THE LAST TIME I EVER DO THAT SO DON’T GET USED TO IT LOL.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
4:53 pm
And if you can trade 2 marginal all-stars for the best big man and the best rebounder in the league, you do it if you want to matter in the NBA.
This not-exceeding the cap crap tells you all you need to know about the aspirations to bring championship basketball to the ATL.
Mike Bell today said Gearon is still in his phase of Arthur Blank envy; this guy truly doesn’t get it!
MattP
January 5th, 2012
4:54 pm
Rufus1,
KM is making 14mil and can ball but JJ is making 18mil and gets destroyed by KM. JJ did good on DW but DW had 10 assist also. Who gets play max contract for their defense? JJ is a good part of this team but his contract will be the reason we can do any better. So I guess people want to see JJ on our roster in 3-4 years making 23mil and we still did not get into the ECF.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
4:56 pm
You can’t spell Dwight without ‘it’….
A better chance to contend within the cap with D12 than no-nickname Joe.
doc
January 5th, 2012
4:58 pm
that’s ok slim is cool and never takes anything personnel.
northcyde
January 5th, 2012
5:00 pm
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
4:37 pm
MattP
Name the Person?
Kmartin call BALL. That is why he makes 14mil a year. When you talk about Kmartin’s game against Joe, don’t forget the 4-17 by DWade. This is the NBA, any player can have a GOOD game at anytime. Joe is the BEST PLAYER on a consistent playoff team….When he is nolonger the BEST PLAYER or we stop making the PLAYOFFS, then I will agree with you.
*********************************
How many playoff appearances does Kevin Martin have? And even he went 5 – 17 FG vs the Lakers a few nights ago. And Kevin hasn’t stopped anybody on defense . . ever.
There are 2 sides of the ball. JJ just happens to be a good to very good player on both sides.
ILL-Logical
January 5th, 2012
5:00 pm
“28% shooting over the past 5 years( almost 1800 jumpshots attempted /16-22 foot range) does not become AllStar material, sorry”
That’s just osh being osh.
drmaryb.[*_*].
January 5th, 2012
5:03 pm
Real Talk!
JM, shut your pie hole re: Josh. You wanna compare him and Dwight % from 15′? Dwight does not take those looks and Josh takes them and can’t make them. Dwight knows his role, Josh doesn’t have one. He tries to be all things to all plays.
A wise man knows his strengths from weaknesses and behaves accordingly. Everyone on this blog was in the delivery room when Josh was born, we walked him to school his first day.
We KNOW who Josh is and, all our opinions are valid. So imma’ keep speakin’ mine.
Hey Josh! Drive the ball on offense – you’ll be an unstoppable All Star! Imma call him: no [J] “Osh Kosh”
(a kid’s clothing line) LOL!
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
5:03 pm
JOE JOHNSON IS NOT OVERPAID. REMEMBER: YOU ARE WORTH WHATEVER YOU CAN NEGOTIATE.
HE HAD LEVERAGE AND A DESPERATE GM AND OWNER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE. I DON’T BLAME HIM ONE BIT. A SMART EXEC WOULD HAVE TRADED HIM FOR A PRINCE’S RANSOM RIGHT AFTER HE TURNED DOWN THE 4YR/60M OFFER, WHEN HE HAD A LOT OF VALUE.
MattP
January 5th, 2012
5:11 pm
Hmmmm,
I’m not blaming JJ, he is smart to take the money those idiots offered. I’m just saying they have an opportunity that they should not pass up because Johnson is locked up for too long time.
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
5:11 pm
WE WOULD SEE THE BEST OF JOSH SMITH IF HE WERE ON THE SPURS RIGHT NOW. PLAYING THE 4 NEXT TO TIM DUNCAN, COACHED HARD BY POPPOVICH WHO WON’T STAND FOR THAT CRAP, AND GUARDS WHO WILL FEED HIM IN GINOBILI AND PARKER. BUT THEY DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO GIVE US SO OH WELL.
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
5:16 pm
“Rufus, what team do you know that has a contract like Joe’s that WILL NOT go into the luxury tax to advance further in the playoffs?”-MattP
The Bulls.
The main problem with the Hawks has been coaching, GM and ownership. Woody and ASG wasted JJ BEST YEARS with BAD coaching and keeping a BAD coach too LOOOONG.
“Joe’s contract is choking, and if you get D12 in the process, where does that say we are a 20 win team?”-MattP
When D12 leaves because the team isn’t good enough to win a TITLE and we still have the same owners.=20 win team
“Apparently, you value Joe’s contract as much as Gearon and Sund does.
Elite is not in Joe’s resume”-MattP
This team has the TALENT, but they haven’t had ELITE COACHING….You see how they are doing with a little better COACHING.
D12 Has as many TITLES as Joe and AL…NONE. He also had an OWNER will spend 30mil over the salary cap,18-20 over the Lux Tax and a very GOOD COACH…..BUT NO TITLE FOR HIM!
I will Take the DEVIL I know…..
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
5:16 pm
MATTP,
I AGREE THAT MARTIN COULD BE A BETTER LONG TERM INVESTMENT. BUT HOUSTON WOULDN’T DO IT SINCE HE WORKS SO WELL WITH LOWRY….. AND WITH TEAGUE, WE WOULD HAVE A SMALL BACKCOURT LIKE GOLDEN STATE THAT WOULD GET PUSHED AROUND BY BIGGER GUARDS.
I BELIEVE JOE WILL GET AMNESTIED AFTER NEXT SEASON, SO I AM NOT WORRIED ABOUT HIS DEAL HONESTLY, BUT YOUR CONCERNS ARE VALID.
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
5:21 pm
Joe’s got a great agent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO!