Atlanta Hawks: About their defense
Bradford Doolittle was at Hawks-Bulls and writes a thoughtful piece at Basketball Prospectus about his observations of the Hawks’ (so far) improved defense (ranked third in efficiency before tonight’s games). It’s worth a read.
In the post, Doolittle says the Hawks made “no major personnel additions to explain the defensive improvement.” But I think they have and it (possibly) does.
(All of the following comes with the necessary Small Sample Size Qualifier.)
The Hawks have more defensive talent and depth than last season (and probably more versatility, too). It’s now more Jeff Teague (not new, but new to getting most of the point guard minutes) and Jannero Pargo, no Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford. It’s more Tracy McGrady (size, rebounds) and Vladimir Radmonovic (steals, blocks), no Mo Evans and Damien Wilkins. It’s (eventually, I’m assuming) more Zaza Pachulia, no Josh Powell.
Look at Atlanta’s on-court, off-court numbers at basketballvalue.com. Notice that all of the bench guys have better defensive ratings than all of the starters. There are likely factors at play here beyond the Small Sample Size Qualifier–for instance, the Hawks have yet to face a team with much scoring depth–but so far there’s a striking difference in the distribution of those numbers as compared to last season.
Doolitttle also writes: “There was nothing schematically that I saw to explain Atlanta’s defensive success. We’ve seen in the past that Atlanta is capable of putting the screws to teams defensively as they did during last year’s playoffs and perhaps Drew’s insistence on that approach has simply gotten through.”
I think this, in combination with better defensive players playing move minutes, might help to explain the improvement (so far).
Other than the occasional trapping and ball pressure and the zone alignments used at times against Miami and Chicago, the Hawks haven’t noticeably altered their schemes. But, subjectively, they are playing defense with more vigor and they have the long, athletic players to make things happen when they commit to it. With the exception of their game against Heat, whom the Hawks wisely wanted to slow down, I think they so far are meeting Larry Drew’s goal of “being a little more of the aggressor.”
There are some numbers that may support that subjective view.
Before last night’s games, the Hawks ranked eighth in opponent turnover rate. They ranked 29th in that category last season. Atlanta so far has the eighth-best opponent assist rate this season; last season its opponent assist rate was ninth-worst.
With the Small Sample Size Qualifier in mind, perhaps those numbers mean the Hawks are making opponents play faster and sloppier. According to Synergy Sports Technology, the Hawks rank fifth in the league in points per play allowed (0.81). They are No. 1 against post-ups and–surprise!–No. 4 defending in transition. Plus, Atlanta is holding opponents to 60.8 percent shooting at the rim, ninth-best in the league.
Some individual players also are making more box score defensive plays.
Teague has so far maintained his career steals rate while playing more minutes (literally–at this moment his steals per 36 minutes is exactly the same as during his first two seasons). Horford has seen a spike in his blocks and steals rates. Marvin Williams’ steals rate is up.
The other day at shootaround I asked Jerry Stackhouse which team in his career he considered to be the best defensively. He picked his Dallas teams from 2004-05 to 2008-09. Those units’ defensive efficiency ranks, in order: 9th, 11th, 5th, 9th, and 17th. Avery Johnson was the coach for 18 games of Stackhouse’s first season in Dallas and the all of the next three, while Rick Carlisle was coach for the fifth year.
So what were the characteristics of those teams? Stackhouse:
Everybody was just looking to help each other. We assumed that–even though we had good individual defenders–we assumed everybody was a bad defender and all four guys had to help. Like, if a guy was isolated on the wing and even though we knew his guy was guarding him, everybody leaned to help. You had to stick to the principles. We always said, ‘We are not allowing middle.’ If you allowed middle, you knew and everybody knew that you were the breakdown on the play whether they scored or not. They got into the paint and they put us under more stress than they had to because you allowed middle. A good defensive team has got to hold each other accountable. They know when and where they make mistakes. It don’t have to be pointed out to you that you made a mistake. You were the first one to know, ‘Damn, I made a mistake.
And what is the defensive potential of this Hawks team?
“It’s there, man,” Stackhouse said. “We have just got to harp on it a little bit more. In training camp, that’s all you are focused on. Then when it gets into the crux of the season, you revert back to bad habits. The system is built up, and if you do something against it, there is nothing built in to help. That’s what I see this group has got to get.”
Stackhouse added that the Hawks have the physical tools to be an elite defensive team: “That’s half the battle. It’s one thing if you can’t do it. We can do it.”
If the Hawks can keep up this defensive effort once the The Small Sample Size Qualifier no longer applies, they could be on their way to improving as a team with the same core.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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185 comments Add your comment
Wabe
January 5th, 2012
8:59 am
Hope Wade and LBJ play…
But something’s telling me they’ll both be out. I think at least one of them will be sitting. Probably LBJ.
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
9:04 am
pargo is the man! heh the only way he gets on the floor should be in harry the hawks uniform.
Peter
January 5th, 2012
9:08 am
I have been really impressed with the defense, which means the over all effort. Hopefully the foul shooting, and the offensive movement will come to fruition.
It is sad to see the ISO situations come the 4th quarter, with JJ taking over and missing very tough shots, and wasting opportunities like they did against the Bulls !
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
9:47 am
And if Horford is not getting Dwight, he’s not getting Bynum and the next best thing is defensive center Andrew Bogut. Not Greg Monroe. Other than that with MIL losing, likelihood is you should give it up. They are not looking to trade or the player is a low quality impact player. IE they are worse rebounders AND softer defenders than Al. See Brook Lopez.
I doubt we get Dwight + shooter to put Josh inside so Again the next best thing is Bogut and Mr. Leuer. Pretty sure we could get that done.
And Spencer Hawes cannot be had cheaply. Greene says Centers are routinely overpaid and he is Playing real well.
=======
Lang Greene
From what I hear teams were burning up the Sacramento Kings’ phone lines inquiring about DeMarcus Cousins, but the organization has no intention on trading the big guy. None at all.
========
Also “Smith blew it” Coming out of the timeout, Smith, the lanky bouncy guy was pretty clearly guarding Rose, and Joe Johnson on Deng.”
Horford already said that they expected Rose to get it back and the plan was to double Rose :eyeroll:.
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
9:50 am
This season Leuer, not as much of star as he was on the Badgers, has only played 66 minutes in their first 5 games. But during that time, Leuer has scored 26 points. In comparison, Ersan Illysova, Carlos Delfino, and Shaun Livingston have all played 100 plus minutes and all scored below 35 points.
Math shows that Leuer would have around 55 points if he got the same amount of minutes as the three just mentioned. It is hard to answer but what edge is Leuer getting over these veterans?
===========
He’s a 7′0 shooting guard… give him space and watch him burn you. Should snatch him before he develops more value that puts him out of reach.
kwooden
January 5th, 2012
9:58 am
northcyde, I agree with what your seeing from the numbers, which I think can change if Pargo is committed to running the offensive when he comes on the floor. Personally, I think LD should only have the entire bench on the floor at one time if there are no clear match-up issues. DC torched our bench and NJ did some work against our bench when they kept Deron in the game. Also the best plays for the bench to run is either McGrady posting at 17′ or the screens for Vlad while Zaza is diving to the basket. Pargo and Green need to consistently work the offensive and I think they will be much more effective. I can’t kill the bench though because they appear to still be figuring it out. I don’t think the bench as unit has played any worse that the starters overall, but they have gotten buried in certain match-ups.
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
10:02 am
7′0 small forward with a dribble jumper… my bad
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
10:05 am
Smith takes so many jumpers because its what the defense gives him. His handles to blow past the man are poor and he does not possess the ability to go right.
Marvin should be at the top of the key. Smith’s assists might go down but stash him on baseline and run isos with Teague or better yet that curl play with Teague or Joe Johnson.
Mike
January 5th, 2012
10:06 am
@superiorblogman
That is way too much to trade for Cousins and Salmons, because here is the million dollar question, do you want the Hawks go over the LT for that guy. The answer is No.
FreshFromATL, Trade rumors is always there and we need a shake-up and a True Center as well. When people is start saying that Al is like a Chuck Hayes, then something is really wrong.
I wont trust Lang Greene with any information besides we need a true center (not Bogut btw) besides we wont get to the promised land if we dont take any chances.
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
10:12 am
Pargo
Pargo can’t be on the COURT with Vlad, because teams attack the RIM and he(Vlad) can’t defend it.
We need another SHOT BLOCKER in the rotation.
doc
January 5th, 2012
10:45 am
ole addition by subtraction rule.
Melvin
January 5th, 2012
10:50 am
“”The Teague – Johnson – McGrady – Smith – Horford lineup is our WORST lineup out of the top 10 lineups we’ve put on the floor so far this year.
Drew needs to keep close eye on this lineup, and truly judge if it is effective or not. This may be a “fools gold” type lineup, much like the Jamal – Johnson – Williams – Smith – Horford lineup last year.”- Northcyde
But wasn’t the Teague-Joe-TMac-Josh-Al lineup that finished/won the game in Miami and the starting five was the lineup that finished/lost the game in Chicago. Hawks did lose the game by missing free throws but I also think coaching played a factor b/c LD should’ve went back to TMac the last two mins to finished the Bulls game.
Looking at the numbers tells one story and I think coaches should use stats to evaluate their team but they also have to make in-game adjustments base on the flow of the game as well.
kwooden
January 5th, 2012
10:54 am
Rufus, I think your right but depending on the match-ups. The 2nd team can get away without a true Shot Blocker, if they run their offensive. They should score enough to maintain or expand a lead, but if they can’t score they are really going to have problems. The real problem I’ve seen is Tracy trying to guard SF off the dribble. If the 2nd team traps then they don’t really have to worry about one-on-one situations, because they will be scrambling. But good teams aren’t just going to leave 5 bench players on the floor to deal with our bench, they will mix and match with starters. LD and the coaches will have to make this adjustment. Especially, getting Marvin and Tracy on the floor at the same time. They also have to find away to keep Josh fresh. I think Josh will consistently attack the basket if he’s fresh, I see fatigue causing him to settle for jump shots.
kwooden
January 5th, 2012
11:01 am
Melvin, I agree the numbers aren’t telling the whole story. Tracy’s knee clearly had an effect in the Bulls game.
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
11:07 am
substitutions. i don’t like how ld is so rigid with his substitution patterns. as some mentioned he needs to be flexible on who he substitutes and when depending on the flow of the game. but instead ld always substitutes each game the exact same way. this lack of creativity and common sense might be the down fall of a coach who looks to at times in over his head.
Astro Joe
January 5th, 2012
11:19 am
Pargo is a substitute teacher until Hinrich is healthy. It would be great if he could be better in every facet of the game, but that seems unreasonable. He was used sparingly last season in Chicago and was cut a month or so ago and made available in the 11th hour. And logic would suggest that Teague (or anyone else) can’t play more than 36 minutes/game in this compacted season. In other words, we need to stomach whatever we get from Pargo and hope for a quick return by Hinrich.
If Wade AND LeBron miss the game tonight, do the Hawks let their guard down and find thmselves in a dog-fight with James Jones, Mario Chalmers and Norris Cole finishing the game?
vava74
January 5th, 2012
11:19 am
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/powerRankings
Read and laugh in disbelief…
wordsmithtom
January 5th, 2012
11:40 am
Vava, are the Knicks REALLY that bad? I know they lack a point guard, but 14th???
vava74
January 5th, 2012
11:48 am
wordsmithtom,
I was mainly focusing on the fact that LD is mentioned as perhaps one of the most underrated coaches…
About the Knicks… yes, they are garbage: 14th equates to low seed in the East which is where I expect them to be (7th-8th) barely making the playoffs.
Chandler is good if everyone around him also plays D but with his arrival – as I predicted – we are seeing Amar’e and ‘Melo playing EVEN LESS D.
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
11:58 am
Chandler was so good with CP3’s lobs or Dirk ’s perimeter game. But Amare and Carmelo need an Iguodala type at SG and a PG
wordsmithtom
January 5th, 2012
12:02 pm
Let’s just hope Hawks remember what Knicks did to them last year and replay in kind.
Kirk’s shoulder injury seems to be healing as expected. Shoulders are slow to heal, BTW. Raising the arm is the biggest problem. Takes time to regain full motion. Don’t expect him to jump back into starter’s role. Actually, having another 3 ball in the 2nd team is a very good idea. Still weeks away.
Ken Strickland
January 5th, 2012
12:08 pm
As soon as the Knicks signed C TChandler, everyone elevated them above the Hawks. Some even elevated the Celtics ahead of the Hawks, based solely on their history, while ignoring their age, lack of depth, and how fragile they are. I remember how a lot of our so called fans went wild for the Bucks when they signed CMaggette, and the Heat when they signed VCarter. We’re still the better team.
WORDSMITHTOM-The Knicks lack depth, the kind of PG that can make DeAntoni’s system work, and anyone that cares about playing DEF, other than TChander and Blackmon.
darrell starks
January 5th, 2012
12:22 pm
This team could be the best Hawks team ever specially on defense, thus far smothering type style of basketball could be the reason why the Hawks make to the NBA eastern conf finals.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Smith.Leuer.Bogut aka Other Options?
January 5th, 2012
12:23 pm
and the Heat when they signed VCarter?
There are only 2 teams ahead of the Hawks imo. MIA and CHI.
Been a Tmac Fan
January 5th, 2012
12:26 pm
@ EVERYBODY!
STOP MAKING UP THESE UNREALISTIC TRADES.
darrell starks
January 5th, 2012
12:30 pm
LD trusting the bench and staying with them, is the improvement of his ability realizing the way to success is keep your players fresh through out the season.
Having a solid good bench and not missing a beat so far this season with 60 more games to go.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
STRETCH
January 5th, 2012
12:34 pm
When did Vince Carter play for the Heat???
The Truth
January 5th, 2012
12:42 pm
“Don’t you think Dominique has spoken to Josh about his shot selection? Woody and LD both did. So What makes you think Stack is going to be the guy to get Smith to change his mindset and shot selection?”
Josh can’t be that bone headed for this long? However, it is possible that Josh is smarter than we give him credit for. He may be deliberately trying to induce a trade to move on, out of the ATL. Perhaps he’s tired of the negative labels we’ve put on him. Though any labels Josh has received in this regard is self-induced. He publicly stated that he hasn’t asked for a trade but if he was traded he wouldn’t be shocked or surprised
However, as a NBA player, shooting jumpers is part of the game. Josh, like most players, looks to build and expand his game so he should have the freedom to shore-up his weak links. But that’s hasn’t been the issue. It’s taking long jumpers at the wrong time during critical stretches when the Hawks desperately need to respond to a run. At that moment, Josh decides to experiment with his jumpers. This certainly has the appearance of BBIQ even to the national audience but LD plays a role in this development. Since LD hasn’t drawn a line in the sand, Josh continues what he does.
It is as though Josh would rather play to his weakness than to play to his strength. Again, there is nothing wrong with Josh shooting occasional jumpers. He just needs to do it selectively during the flow of the game.
Josh if you are read this: We could live with a 2-4 shooting night but 0-6 is unacceptable. After 4 misses, let it go.
Mike
January 5th, 2012
12:46 pm
@Been a Tmac Fan
So in other word, you dont want the Hawks to get better than you will posting under another name crying why the Hawks didnt get this player or that player
Bottom line is this: It ECF or bust. If they dont make it to the ECF, then this team is going to be blowed up anyway, so try to maximum value so we can have a better chance.
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
1:18 pm
We still need to tweek what works for us in the fourth quarter. My question is: Was T-Mac really hurt that he couldn’t play the 4th? He has been good for us as a threat in the 4th unlike Marvin. Marvin is good for under the radar results at this point, and he is better this year. He is just not ready for the 4th quarter. I wish he were though. He should have a play or 2 run for him, but obviously, LD has no faith.
So for the past 3 games, we have seen the performance on the court fluctuate from good to bad. We have had so many ups and downs this past week, we still don’t know what kind of team we will be going forward.
Now, for more firepower, any reason why Arenas would not be better than Free Willie? He would be more of an offensive threat for us at the same price. We still have time to consider this option, and it would be helpful if Kirk can’t come back ready to go in Feb.
Put Al or Josh with a 2nd team of Arenas/T-Mac/VRad and Zaza and we have a formidable lineup. Does Arenas play that bad on defense? I don’t see him stopping DRose, but that wouldn’t be his role. We need to continue to score when Joe/JT/Josh are on the bench.
And does Arenas on this roster help in the event D12 has to be moved because ORL knows he wants out?
EmirS.
January 5th, 2012
1:30 pm
Would we really want Cousins on this team?
Mike
January 5th, 2012
1:33 pm
I dont think so with Cousins, he will be an Al Hortford part 2 and we are ready have one and dont need another one.
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
1:38 pm
tmac could barely run against chicago.
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
1:41 pm
josh smith + demarcus cousins = dumb & dumber the hardwood edition
kwooden
January 5th, 2012
1:43 pm
Truth, I agree about Josh, but as much as I like Joe he was 2-9 from three! Josh needs to stop taking the jumpers early in the shot clock and then when he does take them just shoot better. GO HAWKS!!
Astro Joe
January 5th, 2012
1:51 pm
Abe is keeping me from posting because he is so much ore concise (and accurate). Handle your biz-ness, oh honest one.
Astro Joe
January 5th, 2012
1:53 pm
… so much more concise…
Rufus1
January 5th, 2012
2:02 pm
“This most recent edition of the Hawks has been celebrated for its incredible talent and sheer athleticism, while simultaneously being damned for grossly underachieving. Their inspired victory in Miami on Monday just might be a sign that the Hawks are finally about to realize their potential. Beating the Heat in Atlanta would go a long way to establishing the Hawks as a bona fide championship-caliber outfit.”-Charley Rosen NBA.com
Good analysis of the coming game.
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/01/05/rosens-report-heat-at-hawks/
FreshFromATL
January 5th, 2012
2:15 pm
Mike,
(regarding you 10:06am post) The problem with that is, the majority of the people on here do not know what the Hell they are talking about, LMAO. The people on here, in which you are refering to, also thinks that:
1) Keith Benson can be an effective player in this league.
2) Pape Sy is the next Manu Ginobili.
3) Jordan Crawford is the NBA’s next superstar/ he would be effective for the Hawks this year while playing ZERO defense.
4) Samuel Dalembert is still a rim protector and he would solve all of the Hawks defensive problems.
5) The Hawks should trade Al Hordford for Andrew Bogut (who is constantly hurt and is hurt right now I might add).
6) Jon Leuer, a guy that can’t even crack into Milwaukee’s starting lineup, a guy which averages 13 mins per game, 5 pts, and 3 rebs, will automatically form Voltron once he’s traded to the Hawks.
7) Tyson Chandler would elevate the Knicks to Championship contenders while guarding all 5 players on the florr by himself.
9) That Keith Bogas would be an effective plaer for the Hawks but then turn around and complain about Willie Green and Pargo, SMH.
10) Within your on post, you stated Al Hordford is like a Chuck Hayes. Which instantly shattered any credibility you could have had.
So I ask you, are these the people we really want to listen to??
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
2:37 pm
LD, KNOW YOUR PERSONAL!
That is all….
honest_abe
January 5th, 2012
2:41 pm
aj: i just couldn’t think of anything else to write. slow news day. heh
slim: only because i’ve seen you write this for the last 3 days, it’s “personnel”.
JM
January 5th, 2012
2:42 pm
@ Fresh 2:15 PM
Co-sign!
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
2:42 pm
Charlie Rose= Peter King of SI
Peter predicted the Falcons would be in the SB this year! lmao!
C’ mon man…………………
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
2:44 pm
I stand corrected Sir..Thanks…lol
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
2:46 pm
WORDSMITHTOM,
YES THE KNICKS ARE THAT BAD. ANY TEAM THAT GIVES UP 110+ POINTS TO THE BOBCATS DESERVES TO GET CONTRACTED. THEIR BEST PLAYERS ARE BORIS DIAW AND GERALD HENDERSON BUT D’ANTONI’S BOYS MADE THEM LOOK LIKE SHAQ AND KOBE OUT THERE. KNICKS ARE 16-22 SINCE THE MELO TRADE, DON’T BE FOOLED BY THE ESPN HYPE MACHINE.
morehouse man
January 5th, 2012
2:47 pm
how much better the hawks would have been if the the owners had let billy knight fire mike woodson when he wanted too do?
Hmmmm
January 5th, 2012
2:54 pm
DID SOMEONE SAY THE HAWKS SHOULD INQUIRE ABOUT KEVIN LOVE? LOL WHY NOT ASK THUNDER ABOUT A DURANT FOR MARVIN DEAL NEXT? BE REALISTIC PEOPLE.
Harry Hawk
January 5th, 2012
2:56 pm
The defense has been good early, but we have 60 games left and, presumably, the playoffs to prove whether it’s really good enough to make the difference.
Slimjr
January 5th, 2012
2:57 pm
T-Mac hurt his leg in the 1st half, that’s why he sat out in the 2nd half of that Chicago game which was too bad. He would have help the Hawks pull it out just like he did against Miami…
T-Mac hopefully will be ready to go tonight and help seal the win again…Marvin has got to stop his disappearing act in the 4th quarters…
Al and Josh are not talented enough offensively to seal the deal..Has to come from elsewhere. Nothing new there….
This squad used be a very good free throw shooting team under Woody..Lets go!
Gearon your close.. One more starter………
KevinM
January 5th, 2012
3:00 pm
If Chills could only get us a 2nd rounder, how is Marvin going to give us anything better? Remember, Odom was dealt for a 2nd rounder.
And with the Melo drama gone, the Nuggets appear to be holding up rather well.
And its either Cousins or the coach……..bye Coach Westphal!