Atlanta Hawks: Camp Report Day 5
The Hawks want to run more often than they did last season. It makes sense when you look at their personnel.
“They call can get up and down the floor, which gives us I think a tremendous advantage in transition if we commit to the run, which I am really trying to get these guys to do,” Larry Drew said. “Jeff [Teague] can really exchange ends. Joe [Johnson] can run. Marvin [Williams] can run. Josh Smith is a deer and Al [Horford] is probably as fast as any five man in the league.
“Running, to me, it has to be habit-forming. It can’t be just a sometimes thing. When you develop that habit it becomes a part of who you are.”
We’ve heard this before. Before last season the Hawks said they would run more often. And then, according to Synergy Sports Technology, they ended up ranking 11th among Eastern Conference teams in the percentage of their total possessions used (shot, free throw or turnover) in transition and tied for sixth in points per possession in transition (1.14).
Turnovers were the biggest reason the Hawks weren’t a more efficient running team: 13 percent of their transition possessions ended with a turnover, worst in the East. Josh Smith was the leading offender with 20.6 percent of his transition possessions used ended with a turnover. Al Horford wasn’t far behind at 18.2 percent but he only used 77 transition possessions while Josh used a team-high 223.
I looked at the video of Josh’s 44 turnovers in transition. It confirmed my subjective view that the vast majority of his turnovers in transition are by way of bad passes: 32 of the 44 by my count, with eight coming on the dribble (though I thought two of those should have been credited to others for bad passes to Josh) and four on charging fouls.
Josh is a pretty good ball-handler in the open court but he often tried to make what Larry Drew called “hero” passes that got swallowed up in traffic, sailed out of bounds or clanged off the backboard. (Frequently heard from Dominique Wilkins during those clips: “There’s where Josh needs to give the ball to a guard. I can’t say it enough.” And oft-repeated by Bob Rathbun: “Josh with the rebound. . . throws it away.”)
Josh would be better off finishing the play himself. He shot 69.8 percent in transition, induced fouls on 14.3 of possessions used and had 15 and-1s–all team highs–and his 69.8 field-goal percentage was second to Al (76.8).
Al, by the way, also led the Hawks with 1.3 points per possession used in transition, suggesting that he should be involved in the fast break more often. So should Marvin Williams, who was second on the team in the percentage of fouls drawn on transition possessions used (13.8 percent) with a low turnover percentage (5.2)
This is where Teague comes in.
“It’s perfect for me,” Teague said of the plan to run more. “That’s the big thing I tried to come in and preach to the guys when I got here is I want to start pushing the ball. We are still young. We are a young team we’ve got to use that to our advantage and use it.”
I’m thinking Al and Marvin should benefit from Teague making more of the decisions on the break. I’m thinking Josh will give it up to Teague because he knows Teague will run with him. It’s not hard to imagine that combination regularly ending with lob dunks, especially since Josh is lighter and faster.
“He looks a lot more explosive, too,” Teague said. “I see him dunking the ball every time now.”
Teague looked to run more than any other Hawks player Last season he had the highest percentage of possessions used in transition among Hawks regulars (23). He turned it over on 9.6 percent of those transition possessions used, drew fouls on 11.4 percent and scored 1.13 points per possession.
Just 10.8 percent of Mike Bibby’s possessions used were in transition, though he was efficient (1.29 points per possession) in large part because he made 16 of 33 3-point attempts on the break, and 13 percent of Jamal’s possessions used were in transition with a good foul percentage (10.7).
To run, the Hawks will have to rebound. Look at how each player’s s defensive rebounding rate ranks among NBA players at their position with more than 15 minutes per game, and it’s not hard to see who needs to pick it up (all rankings according to Hoopdata.com): Al (13th among centers), Josh (15th PFs), Teague (tied for 13th PGs but played less than 15 minutes per game) Joe (25th SGs), Marvin (23rd SFs)
The 6-7 shooting guard with the chiseled body and the 6-9, athletic small forward should not be average or slightly better at defensive rebounding for their position.
“I’m going to challenge both of those guys this year to be better rebounders than they have been in the past,” Drew said. “There is no reason those guys can’t become better rebounders. They have the size. They have the bodies. Rebounding is a dirty job. We are going to challenge them. When we can get the two or the three on glass, they can initiate a fast break effectively. They’ve got to pull more weight in that area. We’ve got to get more rebounding from those spots.”
So, to summarize how the Hawks might improve their transition offense: Run more often, let Teague makes the decisions, send Josh to the rim, get Marvin and Al more involved, and prod J.J. and Marvin to rebound more so there will be more opportunities to run.
Camp report
- Got to see more scrimmage action today. The thing that stood out was Pape Sy’s defensive aggressiveness. He made hay chasing around J.J. and didn’t back down.
- Is there a chance Pape can help the Hawks this year? “There’s a chance,” Drew said. “He really looks good thus far. It looks like playing in the D-League and playing over in Europe helped him because he’s playing at a different level from a confidence standpoint. When he came in for the first camp he might have been a little overwhelmed. But now he looks more comfortable and doesn’t have that deer in the headlight look in his eye.”
- Physically, Sy has the potential to be a good defender. “He’s got the quickness, the size, the length to be a pretty good defensive player, particularly at the top of the floor,” Drew said. “Playng against Jeff every day really helps him out a lot. He has to adjust how to defend guys with the kind of speed. You are not going to go against a guy with that speed every day so if you can keep [Teague] in front of you, then you have a pretty good chance with everyone else.”
- Drew said he still views Sy as a point guard. Teague, Sy, Donald Sloan, Brad Wanamaker and Tracy McGrady are taking turns. “We have to look at this thing realitsicaly,” Drew said. “God forbid that Jeff is out, then we are scrambling at the point guard spot. We have to make sure that we look at each guy individually and very seriously. Hopefully one of those guys will break away from the pack.”
- Kirk Hinrich shot baskets after practice. He said he asked his doctor for clearance on Monday. Hinrich still can’t move his left arm from side to side and can’t lift it very far above his head.
- It looks like the market for Jamal Crawford softened once Chauncey Billups, Vince Carter, Richard Hamilton and Gilbert Arenas became available. Mike Wells of the Indy Star reported Crawford turned down a two-year, $10 million offer (with opt 2012-13 opt out) from the Pacers and SI.com’s Chris Mannix says Crawford is considering similar offers from the Kings and Blazers and less money from the Knicks.
- Check my Twitter feed for comments from Chris Webber, Steve Smith and Kenny Smith about why they think none of the superstar players include the Hawks on their lists of preferred destinations. I’m writing a story on the topic for Sunday’s AJC.
- To those who asked in last blog: Posted late because I had to break down these transition stats. I also heard Hawks were trying to somehow get back in the Jamal sweepstakes and had to check it out (they’re not). But glad to hear you missed me.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
354 comments Add your comment
Robert Yates
December 14th, 2011
12:55 am
Everyone seems to to be somewhat down on the Hawks goin’ into this year, and I understand why, but…..this is virtually the same team that took out a solid Orlando team (using a method that can only be credited to the competency of the coaching staff) and pushed Chicago and the MVP to the brink with a young, inexperienced point guard that played almost as good as the best in the league. I know that ASG sucks, but that’s what we’re dealing with at the moment….we’re at their whim, and it don’t seem like it’ll change. For a team that pays no lux tax it seems like we’re getting a decent amount for the money…..IF Josh smith works that hook this season ( the shed weight makes me happy…ups buddy) and is running all over the place and Teague looks even close to what he did against against CHI you’ve got a brand new starting line-up without changing a starter….hmmmm
Neki
December 14th, 2011
12:55 am
Slimjr
You are crazy, batty and crazy. There is no way that Mr Blank going to sell to the Falcons and if he do, it is going to be a Rankin Smith type owner and I know all of us in here doesn’t want that(and if you do, put your computer down and shut it off completely). Slimjr, i think you are a aints fan
JSS, NVM you just need help.
Back to Hawks, I believe that they need to do a purge of everything and start over, get a owner(s) that want to bring a championship to Atlanta, not receive revenue for just showing up, don’t interfere with basketball relations and let that job go to the people that you are playing for it do that for you.
Maybe
December 14th, 2011
12:58 am
“They call can get up and down the floor, which gives us I think a tremendous advantage in transition if we commit to the run, which I am really trying to get these guys to do,” Larry Drew said. “Jeff [Teague] can really exchange ends. Joe [Johnson] can run. Marvin [Williams] can run. Josh Smith is a deer and Al [Horford] is probably as fast as any five man in the league.
Why is LD including marvin in that top lineup SMDH!!!!! —____—
He may be able to run but he cant finish. Why does this kid continue to get the world handed to him on a silver platter? Ho doesn’t deserve to start.
Reality Check
December 14th, 2011
1:03 am
JSS,
So it’s a red state thing? (I’m a lefty btw). The people who don’t support the Hawks because of their racist perception of NBA players will never become NBA fans, so we can forget them. But Atlanta is a top 10 US market, with a long line of Democratic mayors, and I only see a few thousand people at Philips every game to support a team that has been to the playoffs the past four years.
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:04 am
I always love the “Neki’s” of the world… They never see the point always the insult…
Nobody is going to live through another Hawks implosion… They tried that before and look how long it took them to climb out of that… And the CBA and talent environment in the League is far worse… You’re more apt to become like Sacramento, Golden State or New Jersey then to get lucky like OKC… They were a Portland pick away from being the Kings before Durant fell into their laps…
Neki
December 14th, 2011
1:05 am
I am j/k JSS, totally understand you but you have to smile and laugh through this crap.
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:05 am
Not as much of a “Red State” thing as a phony ultra conservative thing…
kwooden
December 14th, 2011
1:06 am
Clearly this team is going to run as often as it can but as already stated you can’t run without the ball. It’s good to hear that Sy is showing well during practice because we’re going to need him during the season. From the highlights I’ve seen of his games in Europe, his speed can make a big difference for this team. LD is going to have to live with the mistakes Sy’s going to make on defensive, because his stats in the Euro league show that he’s extremely foul prone. From what LD showed last year Sy would be planted on the bench after the first bad foul, which is the main reason why I don’t think the HAWKS should bring back Crawford. I like Jamal as a player and he’s really good with the fans on Twitter, but LD just used him to much. Teague never got a chance to work through his mistakes and this year Sy wouldn’t either.
GO HAWKS!
Grandad
December 14th, 2011
1:07 am
“To run, the Hawks will have to rebound” -MC-
A truism for sure.
I always told my teams;
To run, they had to acquire the ball.
Two ways to do that:
(1) rebound
(2) take it away (steals & turnovers)
Both require great defense.
rebouding = causing the opponent to miss the shot
[opponent shooting %] …
boxing out, anticipation, wanting it more, of course,
but 1st they have to miss the shot.
Taking it away via steals & causing turnovers – speaks for itself.
** Which is why I’ve been preaching to the choir about another *Big
plus another pure *Rebounder !
*** The pure Rebounder could be a [3].
Not necessarily a 7 ftr. Just a Rebounder.
Reggie Evans fits that bill, to name one.
____________________________________________
Sorry; Ive been beating this corpse since I’ve been a blog member,
though I shall continue as long as the ASG disregards our franchise
in terms of building toward a championship.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:07 am
Mr Blank is part of the problem for fans departing..It was not all MV7.. I still dont believe anything coming out of Blanks mouth!
Thats my point..A certain group of people just hate MV7 but Ben rapist Burger instead getting 30 years here in Georgia walks free because the so called evidence was destroyed….The Land of the delusional…..
Rev in Tampa
December 14th, 2011
1:07 am
@ Maybe,
I am no Marvin fan but the reports are that he, along with Teague and Sy, are the standouts in camp. Marvin got relegated to the second team for a big portion of last season. MAYBE he is well on his way to earning a starting position.
The biggest reason I am happy to Marvin in the starting line up is that it pushes Josh and Al to match up with the 4 & 5 positions.
Reality Check
December 14th, 2011
1:12 am
JSS,
Fair enough. I don’t want to disrespect MC’s blog with political talk (lol), but we agree on most of this stuff.
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:13 am
You’ll never fill Phillips with fans from the city of Atlanta… It has to be wider… The Atlanta demographic make-up is an economic demographers dream, it is not what must people think. The people who have disposable income in the ATL itself and rising populations are not marketed to by the NBA… It is Hispanic, it is the young professional with no loyalty to American urban sports… Nobody means that you have to have to turn Phillips into Tijuana Saturday night, but they need to reach multiple communities in a concerted effort…
Rev in Tampa
December 14th, 2011
1:14 am
It is encouraging to hear Drew call out Joe and Marvin for not rebounding. Marvin would hang out at the three point line even after the shot went up last year.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:16 am
All I’m saying is Mr Blank is not innocent as he claims in ref to the MV7 situation…He’s too shewd of a man not to have known what whats going on years before…
Human nature is predictable and flawed when it comes to judging others…Same ole ish for 6 thousand years…..
Maybe
December 14th, 2011
1:16 am
@Rev, I really hope he doesn’t turn the corner this season. before he injured his back in the 08-09 season I thought he was well on his way to living up to his potential somewhat.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:19 am
Hey Neki, call me anything but late for dinner!lol
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:21 am
was^
Buddy Grizzard
December 14th, 2011
1:22 am
“People, to be honest, it was only 4-6 seasons ago everyone looked at Dirk, the way they’re looking at Joe.” – Ra’mon
GREAT POST! I think J-J-J-JOE JOHNSON has a chip on his shoulder from all the bad press after he had a down season due to injuries (after signing the mamoth contract). It looks like he’s coming back in tremendous shape and ready to make another All-Star appearance. And remember, with Bibby and Jamal gone, the rest of the Hawks won’t have to play 4-on-5 on the defensive end. This will help everybody.
Grandad
December 14th, 2011
1:22 am
Slimjr
Take your Falcon talk to the appropriate blog.
While you’re at it build a Vick alter to whine about ea day.
Put a photo of him flippin’ off the fans on your alter and stare at that.
He’ll be lookin’ right back at you.
By the way vs Houston was it Matty Ice that dropped that ball
which was placed right in his hands to send the game to OT.
Oh ….. right ….. I guess not.
That was Julio, , , who is gonna be a good player, , ,
I’m not calling Julio juvenile, , , sophmoric names for dropping that pass.
Any knowledgeable fb scribe knows that Matty Ice falls within the top 6-10
QBs in the league.
Plus he’s younger than the top 5 for sure.
Now begone.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:23 am
Start winning some Championships and the house gets packed by people from all over the region…
Prison Mike
December 14th, 2011
1:25 am
With JT running the show we may finally see “the Suns of the East”. Joe’s and Marv’s rebounding numbers suck compared to their position. You can’t be lollygagging when the ball is in the air, you Marv.
Teague and Josh can be a very special fast break combo considering the type of athlete Jeff is. What’s up with Marv, is his back holding up or does he look like he’s reforming to walking like he has a cane?? He’s the key to this running biz, if he can rebound like he’s capable (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Marvin-Williams-59/), then they will be tough to beat.
Carrlos Lyles
December 14th, 2011
1:25 am
@JSS i agree with you completely Atlanta is a beautiful diverse city and they are neglecting some major demographics with not advertising to the proper groups who would come out and support the home team..
Grandad
December 14th, 2011
1:28 am
Slimjr
Mr Blank
*Bought the fighting dogs
*built the pits
*flipped off the fans
*picked vick’s friends
*smoked dope
*attempted to smuggle dope on a plane
Yep – Mr Blank – Guilty as Charged.
-apologist-
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 14th, 2011
1:29 am
Marvin Williams is NOT a power forward. If Josh Smith is rebounding how is he getting down the floor?
He’s supposed to rebound, get the ball to a guard AND beat his man down the floor? How many years have we tried this?
You get 2 rebounders, rebound, outlet to a guard and while the ball is in the air Josh is “rim runnng”
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:36 am
Marvin is a big #3 who can spread the floor with his mid range and occasional 3 pt. jumpshot.. He can also fill the lane on the break! It is going to be an interesting year for these Hawks for sure!
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:40 am
The same way Russell, Rodman (before he transformed), Hakeem, and a young Moses got down the floor. You get the board, you outlet with a purpose and then you hustle your butt off to the offensive end… They are not mutually exclusive things…
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 14th, 2011
1:41 am
Hawks have ALWAYS sucked at fast breaks. lol at Marvin can run.
Pau will rebound, trail and post up.
Dirk will rebound, trail and post up or fade for 3.
McAdoo will rebound, trail and post up or fade for 3.
Kemp will rebound, trail and post up or stand at elbow and make plays.
Josh will rebound, trails and now hes on the perimeter where he cant shoot and has to use his handle to beat bigger players.
I thought we wanted him inside. Marvin Runs and does what? Take Marvin out for a PF who can rebounding shooter and give Josh Smith the head start on the wing in transition.
How often does the center or PF get a rebound and then a fast break bucket? Josh Smith is athletic but hes not God. In basketball the rebounders are under the basket and The wings get out on the fast break.
No rebound no fast break. Hawks are so retarded sometimes.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:42 am
Agreed JSS
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:44 am
@JSS, the ole man doesn’t get it….Waste of time…lol
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:47 am
Robert McAdoo was a jump shooter… He never saw an in-rhythm jump shoot that wouldn’t take… That is why he and marvin Barnes couldn’t co-exist… Well that and cocaine that is….
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:49 am
I read that Bob McAddo led the league in scoring 3 years in a row! Wow thats some jumpshooter!…
JSS
December 14th, 2011
1:51 am
Leave Granddad alone… He has his firm beliefs on basketball (and the Falcons)… Just agree to disagree… I mean it could be Vava… Count your blessings!
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:52 am
I hear ya! lol
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 14th, 2011
1:52 am
RE: The same way Russell, Rodman (before he transformed), Hakeem, and a young Moses got down the floor. You get the board, you outlet with a purpose and then you hustle your butt off to the offensive end… They are not mutually exclusive things…
You mean when someone falls down and then its 5 on 4? How many points you think those guys got off fast breaks?
You need to rewatch wings run the wings. PFs and Cs beating 4 other people down the floor rarely happens.
Wings get the easy shots, which the Hawks have continued feeding to bumbling Marvin. Over The course of a game the PF and C, the rebounders, are most commonly the trailers.
Dennis Rodman, before he transformed, was an SF. “Dennis Rodman’s career high – 34 points” as a SF. IE he had 2 other bigs, one on the perimeter, Laimbeer, on the floor with him.
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
1:58 am
A bulging Disk will cause a lot of problems from walking like a duck, falling down, getting your shot blocked by a 5′9″ pt guard, leaning to the right on your jumpshot and missing, et al…
But that’s all behind Marvin now! Thank goodness he is healed!!
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 14th, 2011
1:59 am
To run, the Hawks will have to rebound. Look at how each player’s s defensive rebounding rate ranks among NBA players at their position with more than 15 minutes per game, and it’s not hard to see who needs to pick it up (all rankings according to Hoopdata.com): Al (13th among centers), Josh (15th PFs), Teague (tied for 13th PGs but played less than 15 minutes per game) Joe (25th SGs), Marvin (23rd SFs)
The 6-7 shooting guard with the chiseled body and the 6-9, athletic small forward should not be average or slightly better at defensive rebounding for their position.
athletic small forward Is Josh a SF or a PF? Because as a SF I see Josh Smith ranked #1. Hmmmm.
As a PF Horford’s nothing special. Josh Smith outrebounds all NBa SFs, Lebron, 6′10 Durant, in rebounding.
Pro-Horford Bias seems strikes again? What say you?
JSS
December 14th, 2011
2:00 am
Bob McAdoo along with Ernie DiGregorio in Buffalo (now the Clippers) were as wild of a jump shooting teams as the league had seen… They couldn’t play a lick of defense… They gave the 70s Celtics fits…
TMAC to da RACK
December 14th, 2011
2:03 am
TMAC all day baby!!!
GO HAWKS!!!
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
2:05 am
I agree with what Grandad said in a previous blog, that rebounding wins Championships..
Defensive rebounding will be key! Time and again last season it seemed like the opponent would get multiple off. rebounds to score the ball. It hurts. Marvin will need to focus on crashing the boards also to help start those fast breaks!
JSS
December 14th, 2011
2:06 am
Russell scored plenty on the break… Rodman still hit the board (hated the Worm), because he was on the boards and was aggravating as heck… Rodman rarely was on the floor with Laimbeer… He came in with Edwards, and Salley… They swung back and forth when Dantley and then with Aguirre when they came out… That was really the only time Detroit ran and pushed the pace….
Buddy Grizzard
December 14th, 2011
2:11 am
No sleep for MC! Round the clock Hawks =)
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
2:12 am
Hey JSS those Clippers are gonna make some noise this year ya think?
JSS
December 14th, 2011
2:15 am
Bill Fitch used have Hakeem flying down the lanes all the time…. Problem was, he was playing with Sampson and Robert Reid… They were black holes
JSS
December 14th, 2011
2:20 am
The Clips always find a way to mess up a good thing… They are uber talented now… It all depends on how they blend Billups, Blake Griffin, and Eric Gordon come together…
JSS
December 14th, 2011
2:22 am
Night y’all… Don’t kill each other, we have a long and tight season coming up!!! Luv the NBA!!!
Slimjr
December 14th, 2011
2:26 am
Yes, on paper they are loaded up, but like the Eagles found out chemistry is important along with coaching..
I hope they start beating up on the Lakers.. That will be fun to watch…
Grandad
December 14th, 2011
2:34 am
Slimjr -&- JSS
Yawl were both polite and respectful.
I appreciate it.
You two are a hoot as well.
JSS, you are so right when you say my beliefs are firm.
You two have a nice evenin’ – you hear.
Buddy Grizzard
December 14th, 2011
2:37 am
“Just wish i got to see more scrimmage and that what i did see wasn’t mucked up by camp bodies.”
I was pleasantly surprised to see the Hawks ink Vlad and T-Mac. I’m really hoping they sign Stack. We need veterans that know how to play and win. This isn’t the time for the Hawks franchise to be developing players for 5 years from now. As far as I’m concerned, Magnum Rolle and Kito Benson can hit the D-League and work on their careers.
The new CBA includes a requirement for teams to spend at least 85% of the salary cap every year, which leads to things such as Kwame Brown for one year and $7m and Reggie Evans seeking the full MLE. As MC noted, there just aren’t alot of significant big men available for the minimum.
So I’ll go on record… Vegas is saying and doing all the right things at this point. He called out All-NBA Al with his “no excuses” sign. That’s a great indication that he’s ready to start holding his players equally accountable and not show favorites. This behavior might keep Josh Smith in Atlanta beyond next year.
vava74
December 14th, 2011
2:46 am
I see that TS, our favourite Troll, is getting a bit out of control after a fairly civilized and almost entertaining period.
He should resume his medication pronto:
TS, don’t forget to take those lithium tabs. They’re good for you.