Atlanta Hawks: Camp Report Day 2: Still tax-strapped
From what I can gather, Rick Sund is exploring sign-and-trade scenarios for Jamal Crawford. But, so far, Sund does not have the green light to approve a transaction that results in a luxury tax payment. As long as that’s the case, I don’t see how it can happen.
Update 12:08 a.m.: The Knicks have expressed interest in Crawford, as reported by Alex Kennedy Hoopsworld.com and Sam Amick at SI.com. But still no word that Sund has been authorized to spend into the tax. Howard Beck of the New York Times reports that the Knicks will be over the cap once they complete their recent transactions. Their trades thus will be subject to salary-matching rules.
Update 10:09 a.m.: There’s still no indication that Sund has been authorized to spend more than the tax threshold but late last night he was looking for ways to gain some salary relief to get the Hawks further under the tax line. I’m not sure how the Hawks can shed significant team salary (money that counts towards the cap and tax) without using the amnesty clause but apparently Sund is looking for a way to so to gain flexibility to spend on free agents.
After signing Tracy Mc Grady, Jason Collins and Vladmir Radmanovic, Atlanta has roughly $67.7 million in guaranteed team salary committed to 10 players (assuming minimum salaries are the same as stipulated in the old CBA for 2011-12). Add Keith Benson, Pape Sy and Magnum Rolle and the team salary is about $69.7 million.
Atlanta could shed as much as $896,000 of its team salary (depending on any guarantees) by waving those three players and replacing all of them with rookie free agents. Those moves would leave the team salary at about $68.8 million. The luxury-tax threshold is a bit more than $70 million.
Under new CBA trade rules, teams over the cap that don’t pay the tax can acquire no more than 150% + $100,000 of the salaries they trade away. Taxpaying teams can acquire no more than 125% + $100,000 of the salaries they trade away. Since a team over the cap would be using a sign-and-trade to pay Crawford more than the $5 million mid-level, a sign-and-trade involving him would mean the Hawks would have to take back a salary amount that would put them over the tax threshold.
Obviously, the Hawks would pay some tax if they use a significant amount of their exceptions to pay Crawford or any other free agent. With so many teams holding cap room, I have to think Crawford will get more than the mid-level exception even with guys like Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups and Vince Carter crowding the market. The Hawks have resigned themselves to as much.
Days later and I’m still getting questions about the report suggesting a Hawks sign-and-trade with the Bulls that would swap Crawford for Omer Asik and Ronnie Brewer. I don’t think there is anything to that report, and not just because it would be a bad deal for the Bulls (which probably helps explain why the rumor is so popular among Hawks fans).
For one, the deal would require the Hawks to pay significant tax and, again, Sund doesn’t yet have the go-ahead to make that kind of deal and may not get it. Also, the Bulls still are focused on signing a free-agent guard using their mid-level exception, and it looks like they’ve got their man in Hamilton.
NOTES
- As expected, the Hawks have no plans to use their amnesty clause this year. It can be used before any season of the CBA, which is for 10 years with mutual opt-outs for the owners and players after six years.
- For now, the Hawks are scouring the free-agent value bin and the waiver wire for help. “We are still looking at what’s out there,” Larry Drew said. “We are keeping our ears open to see if anything falls through the cracks. It’s only the second preseason practice and we will just have to wait and see what happens.”
- The Hawks are in the market for another center. Take a look at the list of free agents and you can see it’s very thin as far as rotation-quality guys.
- The Hawks also are looking for a backup point guard as Kirk Hinrich heals from surgery. The free-agent list looks better for that position. Carlos Arroyo, for one, would be a serviceable stopgap.
- Drew said the Hawks are interested in Gilbert Arenas if he clears the amnesty waiver wire. Teams with cap space get the first shot at him. If there are no bids he would become a free agent, though I’m not sure of the timing on that.
- Billups is on the amnesty waiver wire but he’s warning he might retire or make trouble if he gets claimed by a team he doesn’t want to join.
- The Knicks signed Mike Bibby. New York also reportedly is after free agent J.J. Barea, who probably would be an even better fit than Arroyo for Atlanta. Not sure he can be had for the minimum, though.
- Damien Wilkins signed with the Pistons.
CAMP REPORT
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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254 comments Add your comment
darrell starks
December 11th, 2011
11:54 am
Grandmaster jeje I AGREE BROTHER.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
ryan
December 11th, 2011
11:57 am
I thought i saw on the ESPN ticker were Clippers will match any offer for Jordon unless he will be used for CP3 trade .
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
11:58 am
SHOUTOUT 2 DARRELL STARKS. PROBABLY THE MOST ENTHUSIASTIC AND OPTIMISTIC PERSON HERE
darrell starks
December 11th, 2011
11:59 am
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=86tngp5
THIS WOULD THE BEST TRADE MAGIC COULD GET FOR HOWARD INCUDING THE LAKERS.
Sund should make this call ASAP.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Dog
December 11th, 2011
12:00 pm
Northcyde, I follow your logic, I dont mind taking the risk of what it takes to get Howard here as well. Id just like to create the best climate for his staying long term and he has made it vocally clear and the media/marketers like the pairing as well judging by all the commercials referencing the two.
I still like this line up:
Teague
Crawford
T Mac
J Smith
Howard.
I think thats a very very good team.
Right now my blog name is being misused and I can make better use of my time. Thanks for the feed back and great posts
Have a nice day.
drmaryb.[*_*].
December 11th, 2011
12:11 pm
They Know!
“drmaryb.[*_*].
Actually its that time of the month right now and big dog is bothering me so im using his name right now. I don’t like him. He must be talking about me as the usual suspect.
December 11th, 2011
11:48 am” – Silly Games -
______________
They know “Content reveals Character” -MLK, Jr-
Get a user I’d and use it! What a novel concept … Little Dog.
northcyde
December 11th, 2011
12:14 pm
Hawks payroll if Smith + Horford + two 1st round picks were traded for Dwight Howard and Ryan Anderson
PG – Teague: 1.58 million
G – Johnson: 18.04 million
F – Marvin: 7.5 million
PF – Zaza: 4.75 million
C – Howard: 17.89 million
G – Hinrich: 8 million
F – Anderson: 2.25 million
G – McGrady: 1.1 million?
F – Radmanovic: 1.1 million?
C – Collins: 1.1 million?
G – Sy: .79 million
F – Rolle: .79 million
C – Benson: .79 million?
Total payroll: approximately 65.7 million . . . and roughly 4 million under the TAX.
Am I missing somebody?
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
12:23 pm
Northcyde,
I’m on board with bring Howard back home. A few bones to throw at your trade proposals.
JJ- Do the Magic really want to take on his contract along with paying Gilbert amnesty contract without having the cash cow Dwight (or any other superstar) on the team?
ASG- Do you really think they would risk trading for Howard without assurance of him signing an extension or resigning at the end of the season.
Dwight- Chances of him playing with Josh may intrigue to come to ATL and influence him to resigning with ATL.
Side note:
Are the Magic hands really tied if they keep Dwight and let him become a FA at the end of the season? B/c the teams the Dwight are reported interest in Nets (sign Nene and resign Deron), Knicks, Bulls and Lakers will not have cap space to sign him. I think only the Mavs will have some cap space next summer but Cuban would probably prefer to do a S&T with the Magic to save some cap space to sign other players.
Zing
December 11th, 2011
12:25 pm
Hawks are smart to hold onto their amnesty option and not use it on a player like Marvin. They’re going to need to use it on Joe in a couple of years. Trust me.
ryan
December 11th, 2011
12:31 pm
That is why if Hawks are going to make a move for Howard they need to this year .
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
12:31 pm
Northcyde,
Just saw the that the Lakers have a team option on Bynum contract for next season so they may have enough cap space to sign Howard next season. So that threat may force the Magic hand to trade him this season.
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 11th, 2011
12:31 pm
ORL is asking for Bynum and Pau or a rebuild. Josh and Horford though undersized are good enough to get you to the 5th seed. Like Sam Mitchell, and Rich Cho said its better to tank the season and get lotto picks than be a constant pretender.
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
12:37 pm
One source said the trade has a better than fifty-fifty chance of happening. The third team is under the cap and can inherit a player. Knicks guard Toney Douglas, a native of Atlanta, has been included in one scenario of the talks that began yesterday. New York Post
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
12:40 pm
The Knicks and Hawks were in active discussions today on a three-team sign-and-trade deal that would bring combo Jamal Crawford back to the club, according to an NBA source.
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
12:42 pm
S&T proposal sucks. We need bigs
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
12:44 pm
I think it would be hard for the Hawks to match or beat a Lakers package of Bynum/Gasol and pick(s) for Howard….
darrell starks
December 11th, 2011
12:50 pm
Melvin i agree, i didn’t see that one Bynum Gasol for Howard.
Dam!!!!!!!!!!
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ray
December 11th, 2011
12:50 pm
I dont normally tip my hat to bloggers, because I think most of you dont have a clue and you blog because you lonely lives have no meaning. I can tell because you blog thirty times on 1 page as if you have some earth shattering development that is being revealed and you are the only one with access to the story, so you us keeping us looped in.
But it seem to me Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut has a clue. If you follow I get the impression that he understands the game a lot better than your average arm chair point guard blogger. Ive learned to scroll past the “usual suspects” and look for bloggers with some sense, whose ambition is not to produce page long vomit, or diuretic utterances, but to key in on where the hawks are and what will make them better.
I tip my hat at you Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut, you get my keeping it real award for not succumbing to the “usual suspect” , and having the courage to stand for something in this P. Barnum Bailey of the deaf dumb and blind.
Thanks for keeping it real
Cheers.
There is NOTHING funnier than somebody who blogs plenty, has much to say, can’t get past one particular subject, and then comes on here and points fingers at everybody else for doing the same thing he does.
Extreme Hypocrisy – it’s so beautiful and so entertaining. It should be an Olympic Sport. And I can think of a gold medalist in the waiting.
By the way, I knew it wasn’t the real Big Dog as soon as I read the words “Pre-Algebra”…..
darrell starks
December 11th, 2011
12:52 pm
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=bvelxcn
northcyde
December 11th, 2011
12:52 pm
@ Melvin
(( JJ- Do the Magic really want to take on his contract along with paying Gilbert amnesty contract without having the cash cow Dwight (or any other superstar) on the team? ))
It would depend on how much they valued JJ. And if we did a deal to bring Howard here, but gave them JJ and Horford, this is a pretty solid team that keeps them at playoff level for years to come
PG – Nelson
G – Johnson
F – Richardson
PF – Big Baby
C – Horford
But if JJ’s contract scares them, then no. And that’s why I’d send them Smith and Horford. Horford is locked up long term, but Smith’s contract expires in two years, giving them the option to either re-sign him or trade him for a better fitting piece
((( ASG- Do you really think they would risk trading for Howard without assurance of him signing an extension or resigning at the end of the season. )))
The ASG is a chicken-isht organization that is afraid to take risks. I would’ve taken a risk on Shaq last year, if that trade of Marvin for Shaq were true. Paying a box office attraction like Shaq 7 million to come to ATL, and giving some relief to Horford at center, would’ve been worth it in my opinion. Although Shaq ended up being broke down, that’s still a risk I would’ve taken . . and I wouldn’t have Marvin under contract right now.
So no . . I can’t see them possibly parting ways with Smith and Horford, knowing that if Dwight leaves that they’d have to rebuild the Hawks.
But heck, we’d own Howard’s “Bird Rights”, and he’d need us if he wanted to sign a 5 year extension with Jersey in a sign and trade, instead of a 4 year deal with them. Have them give us Brook Lopez . . Damion James . . and 2 first round picks ( essentially giving us the picks back that we gave Orlando ). AT that point, we could opt to trade JJ for pieces, or amnesty him.
((( Dwight- Chances of him playing with Josh may intrigue to come to ATL and influence him to resigning with ATL. )))
Make no mistake, Orlando can trade Howard to ANY TEAM IN THE NBA. The only thing that is preventing Orlando from trading him to other teams, is that most teams want a guarantee that Howard would sign a long term extension with the new team.
The Nets are in the discussion because Howard would sign an extension with them. But the Hawks could offer the Magic a better deal in the form of Howard + Smith, than the Nets can offer with Lopez + ( insert player here ).
I think a lot of you overplay the “playing with Josh Smith” angle, in regards to Dwight. If Howard came to ATL, and turned this team into an instant title contender . . he did the unthinkable . . WIN a championship for ATL, I’m pretty sure we would be in the lead to sign that guy to a long term deal.
(( Side note:
Are the Magic hands really tied if they keep Dwight and let him become a FA at the end of the season? B/c the teams the Dwight are reported interest in Nets (sign Nene and resign Deron), Knicks, Bulls and Lakers will not have cap space to sign him. I think only the Mavs will have some cap space next summer but Cuban would probably prefer to do a S&T with the Magic to save some cap space to sign other players. ))
No . . their hands are not tied. If he wants a 5 year extension instead of a 4 year one, he’ll need Orlando to do a sign and trade, to get him that extra 20 some million dollars. The trick is that Howard would have a lot more leverage in where he wants to go.
darrell starks
December 11th, 2011
12:52 pm
Melvin that trade failed.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ray
December 11th, 2011
12:56 pm
Interesting…..so thanks to the Knicks, we might get something good out of free agency after all.
I know we don’t need yet another guard (other than somebody that can backup Teague), but I’d take Toney Douglas. Dude can score some, and is a pretty effective defender.
Beyond that, I don’t know what we could get. And now Sund is trying to save money. How? They don’t wanna use the amnesty clause.
northcyde
December 11th, 2011
12:59 pm
@ Darrell . . . the Magic would throw in Hedo Turkoglu’s contract in that mix . . and the Lakers with all of their money would gladly take Hedo to make that deal work.
So the deal of Bynum + Gasol for Howard + Turkoglu is a great deal for both sides.
If I’m the ASG, I’m still offering the Magic Smith + Horford + 2 first round picks . . . for Howard + Ryan Anderson. NO way I’m taking Hedo’s contract, so I’ll give them the first round picks instead, and ask for Anderson to make the deal work.
Big Ray
December 11th, 2011
1:04 pm
Co-sign Northcyde at 12:52 pm.
ryan
December 11th, 2011
1:11 pm
I want Howard more than CP3 Clippers can have Paul the Hawks need a true big man C and D12 is that guy .
northcyde
December 11th, 2011
1:11 pm
LOL @ Big Ray . . . my thing is this. If you won’t trade one or two of “the core” for a Chris Paul or a Dwight Howard, who will you trade them for?
They are either convinced that we’re a few pieces away from challenging for a NBA title, or they are so afraid of taking a risk, that they would rather go the safe route and keep everybody together.
Howard and Paul are PROVEN box office draws, and would definitely sell well in Atlanta.
If the city didn’t come out in droves to see the 2009 – 10 Hawks when we won a whopping 34 home games, what makes them think that people will come out to see this team now . . even if we are good?
If there’s not even a trade rumor out now about the Hawks dealing JJ, Smith, and/or Horford for one of these stars, then the ASG will NEVER trade them.
EmirS.
December 11th, 2011
1:12 pm
@northcyde
Trade Smith and Al for Howard, and this is your team
PG – Teague
G – Johnson
F – Marvin
PF – Zaza
C – Howard
I love this lineup. Both Zaza and Howard in the frontcourt? That’s the toughness we’ve been looking for. Then Johnson and Teague manning the 1 and 2…and Marvin defending the 3? I Love it. Not only will you remain efficient on offense, but your defense improves significantly. However, I believe if we wanted to avoid Dwight leaving after season’s end, whether we won a title or not, we would have to package JJ and Horford.
Just Joe
December 11th, 2011
1:14 pm
If Hawks can come away from a S&T with Knicks with Toney Douglas and the rights to Jerome Jordan, then they’ve done a good job. Wouldn’t have to shed much salary to get back under tax.
Melvin
December 11th, 2011
1:15 pm
northcyde,
If the Magic value JJ then I can see them going with JJ + AL b/c they already have Big Baby. I think AL playing alongside Big Baby would be a better fit than Josh. However, I think any 2 of our big 3 would only make the Magic mediocre at best. So it would probably be better for them to take their lumps to be a bad (Lottery) team and rebuild thru the draft and Free Agency. Possibly building around a young player like AL or Bynum. Hey, they could possibly draft another superstar like Shaq and Howard again. The 2012 draft is suppose to be strong so this year 1st round picks should be very valuable.
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
1:15 pm
Northcyde,
I’d take Dwight over CP3 any day of the year. Joe and Al for Dwight and Redick
EmirS.
December 11th, 2011
1:17 pm
“I think a lot of you overplay the “playing with Josh Smith” angle, in regards to Dwight”
-northcyde
I don’t think it’s overplaying. I think it’s looking at it from another perspective. The biggest problem is the “if”. I’ve read your part on rebuilding if Howard leaves. As you said, the ASG are chicken-sh*t. It would have taken alot of time to come to this whole Dwight Howard scenario in which he joins the Hawks. Just how long would it take for them to use the money wisely, that would come of the books, to rebuild this team.
JaeEvolution
December 11th, 2011
1:58 pm
I heard it was a 3 way trade between Knicks and Warriors, any chance we get Douglas and Jeremy Tyler? He could’ve been a potential lottery pick but went overseas WHILE in High School, has good athleticism and his potential is high.
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
2:10 pm
Cant we just s&t Jamal for an exception or cash? WILL WE EVER USE THESE DAMN EXCEPTIONS AND CASH WE HAVE RECEIVED IN TRADES?
JaeEvolution
December 11th, 2011
2:10 pm
I would take any combination of these from Knicks/Warriors.
Douglas/Tyler, Douglas/Harrellson, Shumpert/Tyler, Shumpert/Harrellson, or Fields/Tyler, Fields/Harrellson.
Has to be a guard and a big and all those guys are either rookies, or have minimal contracts right now which could save us some cap room, Sund can get us another big and a piece for the future with this deal, play it smart.
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
2:21 pm
Sund is a moron. Whether we snt or sign jamal we take on salary
2 FOR JOHN DREW
December 11th, 2011
2:25 pm
DrMB … If you chiroprat ?… as well as you blog, I know there are alot of “HAPPY CRACKED BACKS”
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
2:28 pm
SUND SAYS HES HAPPY WITH OUR BIGS
ZAZA COLLINS ROLLE BENSON
WOW WHAT AN IDIOT
Big Ray
December 11th, 2011
2:28 pm
Northcyde ,
Oh there is no doubt in my mind that you are exactly right. But the ASG just loooooves their core. They have no basketball knowledge and only listen to Sund if he tells them EXACTLY what they want to hear. So the old man does that. Because getting a check is the concern of every American citizen…
northcyde
December 11th, 2011
2:40 pm
JeJe . . . I think if we do a trade with the Knicks, it will either be for a player + an exception or cash
I could see something like Louis Amundson ( a 6-9 F/C in Golden St ) who can rebound a little + 2 million in cash or a 2 or 3 million TPE . . coming to Atlanta.
At that point, we might have to simply let 2 of these 4 guys go
- Sy
- Benson
- Rolle
- Radmanovic
Whatever we do, I seriously doubt it will be major. Getting Douglas would be a nice addition at the point, but I think it will be a guy like Amundson
For what it is worth, here is a Louis Amundson Mix, from when he was in Phoenix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWtINoiim60
drmaryb.[*_*].
December 11th, 2011
2:41 pm
2 For John Drew!
Wassup baby? How are you … I’ve missed your friendly face around here. I’ve been crackin’ backs & takin’ names around here. Just having fun and seeing all the trades and FA signings.
We have the best BB blog in the world and I’ve visited some really bad ones. We moderate ourselves over here and keep each other in line – that’s all.
2 for John Drew, I’m waiting for the next move.
doc
December 11th, 2011
2:52 pm
folks, deewitght howard has bigger fish to fry than to consider coming and staying in the atlanta hawks organization. he wants to be with a winning organization that is big market so he can see the big city lights to market his brand and have some input into what happens in the construction of his team. what he is describing is not “your atlanta hawks”; but keep on talking if you want to waste your time.
if you want to get sick go read about how stern blew up the trade of paul on yahoo. they brought up how he mentioned he knew where he had put some bodies line that he used on the players before the last all star game. he is some piece of work but for those that didnt realize it “the pause” had nothing to do with parity, competitiveness or making the game better for the fans.
the only hope the hornets have is to get value and trade it for picks later this year and odum and scoila would have given them something to work with and to field a team at the same time. now they are going to have less to nothing when cp3 walks. thank you to mr stern who watched as he treated the hawks the same way back when the queen was in cleveland, seems gilbert didnt mind the preferential treatment back then to write little notes to stern saying thanks for allowing him to cheat but maybe we need to not do that in the future so let us do a do over.
doc
December 11th, 2011
2:53 pm
meanwhile, falcons suck.
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
2:59 pm
Jamal snt for Hansbrough
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2011
3:00 pm
Sund is prudly delcaring that the Hawks aren’t a luxury-tax paying team. Do you all think that CP3, D12 and other elite players aren’t aware of which teams pay and which don’t? These guys want to go where they know that ownership will continue to build around them, with players better than the ones they have played with the past few years. Better than Okafor, West, Ariza and Jack. Better than Jameer, Hedo, Bass and JRich/Vince. And for coaches better than SVG or Monte Williams. With all that said, why would they lift a finger to encourage a trade to our Hawks when there are a half-dozen teams who are likely more willing to meet all or close to all of their critieion for the perfect destination? D12 maybe willing to return home and be satisfied with anything as long as he’s home, but that doesn’t seem likely at the age of 27-28.
Astro Joe
December 11th, 2011
3:05 pm
•#Hawks GM Sund: “I like our bigs. We are going to continue to look at [point guards] as training camp goes.” 36 mins ago
I guess that is one less person who thinks Sy should be our 2nd string PG entering the season. Who is left who doesn’t think the Hawks need to find an adequate replacement for Hinrich?
Grandmaster JeJe
December 11th, 2011
3:07 pm
I HOPE SY DOESNT MAKE THE TEAM IF WE R LOOKING FOR ANOTHER PG
doc
December 11th, 2011
3:11 pm
well i can hope the falcons make the panthers look like the dogs did in the dome. rally on guys.
big ray, i dont think that was the little puppy that wrote what you quoted. it is more the ilk of the dmb stalker.
yes aj, let us keep it real, and it is still about the big six in spite of “the pause” to our season.
Grandad
December 11th, 2011
3:21 pm
northcyde
My amnesty plan for Joe was an alternative way of thinking.
I completely understand the thought process in your response.
What I was surmising, was a plan, that gives us hope -now- !
I do Not undervalue Joe. [regardless of what you may think]
Joe (himself0 has “overvalued” himself to this franchise.
His contract has driven a stake through the heart of our Hawks;
and will continue to do so for the life of his contract.
-not all his fault-
ASG paid Joe as if we are the Lakers;
yet now that we have him under contract,
they [ASG] operate as if we are the “Reno Bighorns”.
Grandad
December 11th, 2011
3:22 pm
It was my understanding that Cuban voted against Stern,
and for the Paul trade.
Big Dog
December 11th, 2011
3:26 pm
“. I can’t see them possibly parting ways with Smith and Horford, knowing that if Dwight leaves that they’d have to rebuild the Hawks.”
?
Howard’s not interested if Josh isnt here, So trading Josh and Al is to get Howard leaves a question mark.
From where the Birds stand they will be rebuilding in 2-3 years anyway so Im on board for taking a franchise type move to get Howard. But, he wants to play with Josh if he comes here, and that would truly represent the city.
Lamar Odom is on his way to Dallas with nothing in return as the Lakers clear room for Howard. Bynum is rumored headed to Orlando.
I cant tell that the hawks are taking Howard’s statement that he’d come to Atlanta if Josh is here seriously .