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Atlanta Hawks: Capped out, left out

11:56 am December 9, 2011, by Michael Cunningham

It’s the kind of questions I get often on Twitter: “Why don’t the Hawks pursue [insert big-name free agent]?” After I explain that they don’t have the cap space, I sometimes get the follow-up: Why don’t they trade [Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, some other player I don't like] and use that cap space?” And then I have to tell them that doesn’t work, either, because the Hawks are over the cap and have to take salary back in a trade.

The point here is, until the Hawks gain significant cap space, which they aren’t scheduled to do until 2013-14 unless the use the amnesty card, then they aren’t going to be involved with free agents who command more than the MLE. Shoot, they still may not be involved with MLE free agents until they retreat further from the luxury-tax line.

Sure, the Hawks can swing sign-and-trades (which usually is the next question I get after the two above) but those transactions are not easy. The player has to want to sign with the Hawks and then an acceptable deal has to be worked out between Atlanta and the trading partner. That’s a lot of “ifs” involved.

The Hawks made their big when they re-signed J.J. last summer. They had the choice of using him in a sign-and-trade and then making other moves to clear cap space and make a run at the big names everyone buzzes about. Rick Sund, an enthusiastic supporter of re-signing J.J., nonetheless did his due diligence and presented that option to ASG.

All parties decided to bring back J.J. at any cost. So, for now, they must hope that this group’s upper limit is not a six-game loss in the Eastern Conference semifinals.

The reason why a lack of cap flexibility is particularly problematic under the new CBA is explained by Mark Cuban in an email to Tim McMahon of ESPNDallas:

The reality is that in the new system, cap room will have far more value than it had in the past. I realize that everyone is all freaked out about how and where free agents and future free agents are going, but it’s not just about getting one guy.

We are not saving cap room in hope of that one super special free agent being there. It’s about being in the position to improve every year and possibly add some significant, younger players next year and in future years.

What I don’t think people understand is that once a team hits the tax level the ability to improve our team is reduced dramatically. In addition, your ability to make trades is reduced. So basically, if we made the move to keep everyone together with five-year deals, the team we have today is going to be the team we have for the next five years. If we were a young team it would be one thing. But we are not a young team.

The Hawks are not as old as the Mavs but neither do they have anything close to an MVP candidate or a ring. Perhaps that changes this season, or maybe it doesn’t happen until they gain some cap space and start over.

Etc.

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

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469 comments Add your comment

Rufus1

December 9th, 2011
8:39 pm

20 assist.

Will Teague have a 20 assist game the year?

tjhook

December 9th, 2011
8:39 pm

How does everyone feel about a Marvin Williams for Richard Jefferson trade. We may have to throw in a second player (like Zaza) to make the money right but we can get the Red Rocket (Matt Bonner) and a a pick. They may even consider giving us Tiago Splitter (who can play the four and five). But the goal would be getting a veteran who can put the ball in the basket to replace Williams’ inconsistent play.

tjhook

December 9th, 2011
8:41 pm

And as far as big men, we can bring in another like Hilton Armstrong to join Jason Collins. Or maybe even Solomon Jones again.

Wabe

December 9th, 2011
8:41 pm

It is about markets…

Dude, teams in big markets can go minus a draft because they can land premier talent in FA.

Teams like the Blazers, OKC, and Memphis drafted well. FA’s wouldn’t be lining up to play there.

The Hawks are the Hawks because:

a – they can’t draft
b – they can’t court big name FA’s

Thus, we’re screwed. But, markets are big. Bigger market teams don’t have to hit on every one of their draft picks to be successful. They can bring in talent through free agency. Look at the Lakers roster.

Astro Joe

December 9th, 2011
8:42 pm

Ra’mon, seriously, there are a bunch of other guys I’d take as Teague’s back-up that are NOT named Pape Sy (who may be a good defensive wing player at some point). In no particular order, I’d take Anthony Carter, Antonio Daniel, Acie Law, Ronnie Price, TJ Ford or Mustafa Shakur.

Grandmaster JeJe

December 9th, 2011
8:43 pm

ALL HORFORD WORKS ON IS HIS SPEED AND HIS JUMPSHOT.

HE HAS MADE NO DEDICATION TO AN EFFECTIVE POST-GAME, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, DEFENSE

ASK WORLDWIDE CLYDE OR NORTHCYDE. THEY ARE THE RESIDENT HORFORD EXPERTS.

Astro Joe

December 9th, 2011
8:45 pm

tjhook, Jefferson was so consistent that the Spurs are considering cutting him loose. I think you are thinking of the RJ that played 5 years ago, the current version isn’t much better than Marvin (without the excuse of a bad back).

Wabe

December 9th, 2011
8:46 pm

I’m not denying we have terrible ownership…

But take a situation like the one Denver was in. They played in the Western Conference finals. They built that team up pretty well. Then they’re forced to trade away the ’star player’ they drafted because he was lured to a bigger market team.

Even drafting well doesn’t gaurantee you anything. You can draft well, and watch your assets choose to go elsewhere.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
8:47 pm

“Oklahoma City is poised to be what Portland would’ve been. They’re going to be the juggernaut, depending on what happens with Russell Westbrook next summer. Durant will be there for the next 4 years. And if he wins a title or two in OKC, I don’t know if he’ll be so quick to run to LA or NYC to play ball. He MIGHT go to Washington DC and play back home.

San Antonio won 4 titles as a small market team and Duncan stayed there for life.”

This is all true. But looking at superstars in the aggregate, there is a much, MUCH higher percentage of them that would like to go from small markets to big markets. Duncan is the exception to the rule. Blake Griffin is from OKC, but I can guarantee you he is not going to opt out of his Clippers deal to try to sign there, no matter how well that organization is run.

Of course running an organization well is key. But even then, a well-run organization in a big market is going to have a lot of options open to it that a well-run organization in a small market just won’t have. OKC is well run, but they also got lucky by being able to draft two superstars, at least one of whom seems like he enjoys being there. The possibility of a team like OKC pulling off a Gasol trade or a KG trade and being able to sign that player to an extension is still much lower than the possibility of the Lakers or Celtics being able to pull off such a move. That is a disadvantage under which that team will ALWAYS operate, no matter how they run their team.

“Nah man . . . this “market” stuff isn’t like baseball, in which a team like Kansas City simply can’t outbid the Yankees and Red Sox for players. These “bad teams” need to make the most out of their draft picks, while also building their team correctly via free agency.”

Competitive balance has been an issue in Major League Baseball for a long time, but even there, it is possible for a team like Tampa to continue to be competitive year in and year out if they draft well year in and year out. As their rookies become too expensive, they bring up the next wave of talent from AAA. It is actually harder to pull this off for a low-budget team in the NBA, because typically even if a team is lucky enough to draft one superstar, they no longer suck enough to draft another one in a subsequent draft. Inevitably, that leads to situations like LeBron in Cleveland or CP3 in New Orleans, where that star makes that team competitive enough to make the playoffs year in and year out, gets tired of not having enough help, and eventually decides to leave.

This goes back to the problem of the NBA’s talent pool being the shallowest of the three major sports. A skilled GM for the Rays can draft four or five future above-average major-league players in one draft. A skilled GM for the Hornets might still end up coming out of a draft with only a role player to show for it, because there are just not enough future stars in each draft. One possible solution to this issue is to make the NBA draft eligibility rules for domestic players similar to those for international players, where you can draft the rights to a player and sign him later. That way, if a team drafts a LeBron, they can hold off on signing him until they can suck for another year and draft another star to go with him.

And to compound this problem, a team full of above average players can win a championship in baseball or football, whereas that is next to impossible in basketball. You mention Memphis as a team on the rise, but do you really think that team has any shot at a championship? You really think Randolph/Gay/Gasol is going to beat LeBron/Wade/Bosh or Allen/Pierce/Garnett or CP3/Kobe/Bynum in a playoff series?

Memphis is a fun team to watch, but if a small market team’s best hope is to a) sign an out of shape malcontent who magically turns his career around and reaches his potential ten years into his career and b) trade their best player for one of the biggest busts of all time and have his little brother thrown in the deal, only to see the little brother blossom into a better player than anyone thought he would be, that isn’t exactly a foolproof plan.

The point I am making is not that building a contender in a small market is impossible, but rather that it is so much harder than building a contender in a big market that a small-market team owner cannot realistically expect long stretches of success. In fact, I would bet that even San Antonio, the shining example of small market success, is going to go in the tank for a long time once Duncan and Popovich retire.

“I mean, you’ve talked ad nauseum about how the ASG has either mismanaged or flat out missed their chance to make us great.”

The reason I am so hard on the DASG is because they are actually in a very desirable market, and they STILL have found a way to screw it up. We don’t live in Minneapolis. There is no reason why the Hawks should be run like a small market franchise. Athletes WANT to be here. A ton of athletes who don’t have any outside connection to this city live here and spend time here. Really, other than NYC, LA, and the Florida franchises, ATL should be the next most desirable free agent destination if everything else was equal. The reason it is not is solely because of the DASG’s dysfunction. I don’t have enough fingers to count the number of avid NBA fans I know in this city who support some team other than the Hawks because they are tired of the Hawks sucking.

If the Hawks had made it to the second round three years in a row and they were in Memphis or Charlotte, I might not be so hard on the DASG. Then again, if the DASG operated a franchise in one of those markets, they probably wouldn’t have been able to get their team to the second round even once.

superiorblogman

December 9th, 2011
8:51 pm

northcyde

December 9th, 2011
6:56 pm

@ superior . . . I think the issue with keeping Bibby + Jordan + the draft pick would’ve arose this season, in regards of the luxury tax.

Hinrich makes 8 million

Bibby was due to make 6.2 million this season . . Jordan will make 1.1 million . . and the #19 pick ( which in the old CBA would’ve been somewhere around 1.2 million . . but probably lower now )

So that’s 8.5 million in salary between those 3 players.

Still . . what the ASG did was too much. They gave them Jordan + a 1st round pick. I guess the ASG had struck out so much on all of their other draft picks, that they didn’t even place any value on what assets they had.

Okay, so we would have paid out $500,000 more to Mike Bibby, Jordan Crawford, and a 1st rd pick. That is still far superior to Kirk Hinrich. In what world is $500,000 the price for 2 1st round picks?

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
8:51 pm

“How does everyone feel about a Marvin Williams for Richard Jefferson trade.”

Richard Jefferson is getting amnestied. No need to give up anything for him, not that I am all that impressed with him as a possible addition anyway.

Ryan

December 9th, 2011
8:51 pm

question…..could we amnesty Joe…then resign him to the Vet Min? He gets paid and we get cap room?

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
8:51 pm

By the way the Knicks are trying to sign the Bibbster.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
8:52 pm

“question…..could we amnesty Joe…then resign him to the Vet Min? He gets paid and we get cap room?”

Nah, can’t sign a player that you amnesty.

Wabe

December 9th, 2011
8:53 pm

co-sign Najeh

Said it better than anybody else could’ve.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
8:53 pm

I am with Astro Joe on Pape Sy. I don’t deny that he might be a serviceable NBA player. But I have seen nothing out of him that indicates he can be a serviceable NBA point guard.

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
8:54 pm

Hawks up..

drmaryb.[*_*].

December 9th, 2011
8:55 pm

Shake – Shake – Shake!

OMG! “See who shakes loose.” – Drew -
____________________

Is that the plan? To stand under an UFA tree and hope something shakes loose? Well, who’s gonna’ be shaking the tree? How hard is the tree shaker gonna’ shake it – real hard?

The Hawks management is like that vending machine you see at the carnival and some sports bars. You know the ones where you continuously feed it $1.00 bills and guide the silver three pronged gripper over a cute little stuffed animal. When you grip it, you have to drop it into the big hole and give it to your girl?

Problem is, every time you grab it? The claw let’s it go just before you swing it over the hole!

That’s what the Hawks do with FA. They stand under a Dollar Tree and wait for “Too Much Good Stuff” to fall into the Bargain Bin – they wait for something to shake loose.
Something irregular, you know where the seams and thread don’t line up and match.

Hell, I bet all 8 of the ASKG camp out in the parking lot over night and bum rush the Bin when the doors open. A stampede – no doubt!

The better teams are shopping at Rich’s! LOL!
The Lakers are over at The Louis Vutton Shop – Shopping!

SMH

Melvin

December 9th, 2011
8:55 pm

NBA TV is at the Hawks training camp right now…

Melvin

December 9th, 2011
8:55 pm

They are interviewing LD right now…

Melvin

December 9th, 2011
8:58 pm

I hope the Hawks sign TMac to a 2 year deal with a team option for year 2 just in case he plays well.

tyger

December 9th, 2011
9:01 pm

Plethora of veteran shooting guards suddenly available:

Hawks only $2.5M under luxury tax, so unless they get creative, or something “shakes loose”:

Gilbert Arenas – Amnesty
Vince Carter – $4M buyout
Chauncey Billups – Amnesty
Rip Hamilton – $14M buyout
Jamal Crawford – Free Agent
Michael Redd – Free Agent

I know theyre all racing to Miami, NYK, LAL, Chicago but “real” money is equally hard to turn down, so the under the cap teams will get a shot at them, but most of them are in re-build mode and want their youngsters to play so hope is alive.

We need a veteran PG (Billups) and a backup SG/F (Vinsanity) and roll with Horford/ZaZa/Collins.

Billups Teague Hinrich
Johnson V. Carter Sy
Williams T. McGrady Stackhouse
J. Smoove Benson Rolle
Horford Pachulia Collins

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
9:01 pm

“pieces that compliment what we do”… what do we do?

“versatility”… umm, has gotten us nowhere.. we need some specialist, and some defined roles..

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
9:04 pm

Mavs are trying to sign Vince Carter to replace DeShawn Stevenson (which makes them worse in my opinion but whatever).

Astro Joe

December 9th, 2011
9:04 pm

I don’t think market size is all tha significant, it is about owners willing to pay into the luxury tax. Guys don’t want to play in LA, they want to play for the Lakers. They aren’t attracted to the Nets (NYC’s TV market). Is anyone anxious to go to Philly? Who has a bigger TV market, Philly or Miami? If you go to a luxury-tax paying owner, you have a better chance to go deep in the playoffs and win a title. Heck, guys were interested in going to Cleveland (yeah, Cleveland) when LBJ was there and Hilbert was forking over the money. Sorry, this is all about guys taking the easy way to glory by joining forces.

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
9:05 pm

As far as the Hawks are concerned, I think more than anything they need a quality big guy. I don’t know whether there are quality bigs available at the Hawks’ asking price, but they need to try to get someone else who can come in and provide some toughness inside, preferably also some shot blocking. I think this is a bigger priority than adding any more depth in the back court or on the wings.

Wabe

December 9th, 2011
9:05 pm

Vince Carter’s close to signing with the Mavs…

ESPN
Chris Palmer
Vince Carter close to signing with Mavericks. (via @ESPNSteinline)

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:06 pm

Did I hear that right? Pape Sy is currently our #2 PG?

Personally, I never saw him as a PG. Either a SG or a SF. And I don’t trust a French “PG” under the tutelage of Larry Drew. We all saw how Jeff Teague was “groomed.”

ryan

December 9th, 2011
9:06 pm

Pacers are interested in Crawford do there any chance we can get Danny Granger .

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:07 pm

Who is Bill Ingram, and why has he tweeted that a sign-n-trade with Jamal Crawford (and Bogans going to the Hawks) is imminent?

Najeh Davenpoop

December 9th, 2011
9:07 pm

“I don’t think market size is all tha significant, it is about owners willing to pay into the luxury tax. ”

This may be at least partially true, but as long as teams get to individually negotiate TV deals without having to share the revenue, the big market teams are invariably going to be the ones that are more willing to spend more money.

Just Joe

December 9th, 2011
9:08 pm

So Joe says we need a banger down low, and Josh says we need a knock down shooter. Horford says we need a couple more guys. I think they are all correct.

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:09 pm

Suns cut Gani Lawal loose. I’d take that guy in a heartbeat over Magnum Rolle.

Jason Collins Part III does not excite me at all. Funny how Joe is now saying we need a guy down low. It’s an epidemic, I tell ya.

j-big

December 9th, 2011
9:10 pm

The only way this team competes is if we could get Billups. Any chance that could happen?

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
9:10 pm

i wanted the Hawks to draft Gani.. tough, hard nosed, rebounds the ball, and a reserve big who can finish at the rim..

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:11 pm

Inmates running the asylum. Horford may as well just be saying that Collins and Pachulia aren’t going to cut it for centers (gee…really?). Joe may as well be agreeing with him. Josh says they need a knock-down shooter….could that mean he’s acknowledged the fact that HE IS NOT THAT GUY…and will therefore stop trying to play like it? One can only hope.

Astro Joe

December 9th, 2011
9:11 pm

ajchawks Michael Cunningham
Josh Smith calls for “knock-down shooter”: “I’m not asking for Kyle Korver, but a guy who can just spread the floor.”

Why, is Josh going to be some place other than 20 feet from the basket?

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:12 pm

bigdave ,

So did I, my friend. Now we have a chance at snagging him, watch us pass him right by…as we work out another 1 year deal for Jason “I’m only good for guarding Dwight” Collins. Let’s go out and get Etan Thomas again. He can ride the pine as well as anybody and gives us “never gonna use it” depth…

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
9:13 pm

when the Hawks drafted Sy LD went on record saying he could run point..

from what i saw in summer league play, he wasnt horrible but, i question handle and how well he can defend the position..

The Hawks Will Some Day Win a Championship

December 9th, 2011
9:16 pm

FIRE SUND

fcnatl85

December 9th, 2011
9:16 pm

Certianly interested by Garcia to back-up Smoothe or Horford…

Hawks Basketball...

December 9th, 2011
9:16 pm

The best things for sure this season, concerning hawks basketball, is not having to spend one damn dime on them. NO tickets, NO parking, NO souvenirs, and NO popcorn.

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:19 pm

bigdave ,

I like Sy. I don’t know why, but I like the kid…at least a little bit. But I did NOT see a pg when I saw him. Nothing about him says he can either – 1) Initiate the offense, or 2) hit the open jumper.

You have to be able to do one of those two to play any version of PG on this team. Hell, on most teams…

Big Ray

December 9th, 2011
9:19 pm

I think Sy will be a better defender than anything else. He can drive the ball some. Didn’t see much else from him…but then…didn’t see much of him at all.

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
9:27 pm

i agree.. but, having not see one in so long.. im not sure what a PG is asked to do in our “offense”.
id openly welcome a guy who attempts to get to the rim..

im sick of the jump shots either on.. or we lose Hawk team..

Astro Joe

December 9th, 2011
9:27 pm

Pape Sy is French for Mario West.

drmaryb.[*_*].

December 9th, 2011
9:28 pm

P90X Insanity!

Dayum! Grandmaster JeJe you just outed Melo. That dude looked satisfied. He should have stood behind somebody, nice blouse though, (LaLa must have layed his clothes out) so, no dimes would hit on him that day!

GM-JeJe! Melo looks like an old married man. I guess we knew what he was doing in the off season – hitting every Chinese Buffet in New York?

Just because it says – All You Can Eat? Doesn’t mean you have to eat all of it. 4 games in 5 days? Melo is gonna’ be winded in the 1st quarter of game 1.

I thought he was a SMALL Forward – he looks like a XXXL Forward to me.

Is that Baron Davis dressed like a Muslim! The Beard? Is that a towel wrapped around his head. Why not wear an Armani Suit for a serious negotiation? How embarrassing.

Come on guys, didn’t Stern give yawl a dress code?

LOl! Nice link from GM-JeJe … Ha Ha – ROF. Who’s gonna’ feed Melo the ball – he just might eat it. Without Chauncey, that team is gonna’ struggle badly. Who is their GM – Isaiah Thomas? LOL!

Rufus1

December 9th, 2011
9:31 pm

Earl Watson got 4.6mil over 2 years…..he isn’t that good.

superiorblogman

December 9th, 2011
9:33 pm

As currently constructed this Hawks team is just what T.I. called Shawty Lo and his boys. “A bunch of walking dusty shi.. stains”

bigdave

December 9th, 2011
9:35 pm

lol @ stro Joe..

sigh

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