Atlanta Hawks: Capped out, left out
It’s the kind of questions I get often on Twitter: “Why don’t the Hawks pursue [insert big-name free agent]?” After I explain that they don’t have the cap space, I sometimes get the follow-up: Why don’t they trade [Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, some other player I don't like] and use that cap space?” And then I have to tell them that doesn’t work, either, because the Hawks are over the cap and have to take salary back in a trade.
The point here is, until the Hawks gain significant cap space, which they aren’t scheduled to do until 2013-14 unless the use the amnesty card, then they aren’t going to be involved with free agents who command more than the MLE. Shoot, they still may not be involved with MLE free agents until they retreat further from the luxury-tax line.
Sure, the Hawks can swing sign-and-trades (which usually is the next question I get after the two above) but those transactions are not easy. The player has to want to sign with the Hawks and then an acceptable deal has to be worked out between Atlanta and the trading partner. That’s a lot of “ifs” involved.
The Hawks made their big when they re-signed J.J. last summer. They had the choice of using him in a sign-and-trade and then making other moves to clear cap space and make a run at the big names everyone buzzes about. Rick Sund, an enthusiastic supporter of re-signing J.J., nonetheless did his due diligence and presented that option to ASG.
All parties decided to bring back J.J. at any cost. So, for now, they must hope that this group’s upper limit is not a six-game loss in the Eastern Conference semifinals.
The reason why a lack of cap flexibility is particularly problematic under the new CBA is explained by Mark Cuban in an email to Tim McMahon of ESPNDallas:
The reality is that in the new system, cap room will have far more value than it had in the past. I realize that everyone is all freaked out about how and where free agents and future free agents are going, but it’s not just about getting one guy.
We are not saving cap room in hope of that one super special free agent being there. It’s about being in the position to improve every year and possibly add some significant, younger players next year and in future years.
What I don’t think people understand is that once a team hits the tax level the ability to improve our team is reduced dramatically. In addition, your ability to make trades is reduced. So basically, if we made the move to keep everyone together with five-year deals, the team we have today is going to be the team we have for the next five years. If we were a young team it would be one thing. But we are not a young team.
The Hawks are not as old as the Mavs but neither do they have anything close to an MVP candidate or a ring. Perhaps that changes this season, or maybe it doesn’t happen until they gain some cap space and start over.
Etc.
- I think the Hawks will make an offer to Jamal. I don’t think it will match what he can get on the market.
- Both Jody Genessy of the Deseret News and Brian T. Smith at the Salt Lake Tribune report that Earl Watson still could re-sign with the Jazz even after they signed Jamaal Tinsley. Watson would be a good pickup for the Hawks because he has good size, is a very good defender and rebounder and has a good assist rate. He also has a high turnover rate and can’t shoot or score but, hey, there are reasons he might be had for the minimum.
- Update ProBasketballTalk says Watson is expected to sign with the Wizards. (H/T to blog commenter mountain_jim)
- Chris Tomasson tweets that power forward prospect Charles Garcia will be at camp with the Hawks. Here is his D-League profile and his DraftExpress.com file.
- Larry Coon and Marc Stein look at the so-called “B list” items that are part of the new CBA.
- You might have heard the league blocked a trade. The teams involved are appealing, according to Stein.
- The Hawks practice at 5 p.m. today. Us media types don’t get in until after 6. Follow me on Twitter for live updates and check back here later tonight for a blog post.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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469 comments Add your comment
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
5:11 pm
AJ,
“Remember when we let Al Harrington go for non-basketball assets? ”
I thought we got the Acie pick from that deal. Unless you are saying that Acie was a non-basketball asset?
The Big Chill
December 9th, 2011
5:16 pm
The Kirk Hinrich deal was the wost deal this team could have made. Why would you trade your future Crawford replacement for an old guard that is now going to stay on the IR. And on top of that trade a 1st round pick. Unbelievable….a blind mind could have seen that was a very stupid deal. You give away 2 potential stars for an old washed up guard. Sund is worst than Billy and that is pretty bad.
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:17 pm
Grandad, here is the trade of the day. I know YOU would LOVE this deal. Especially for a traditional motion offense.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7d3r3sv
Toronto Gets:
Joe Johnson
Atlanta Hawks Gets”
Bargnani
D. Derozan.
Toronto is far enough under the cap to adsorb Joe’s contract. They get an automatic all star. And the Hawks get the center they want. With an SG to replace Joe, who in 2-3 years may be just as good as Joe is on the downside of his career.
Also the Hawks are able to possibly re-sign Jamal if they choose to, with the money they saved.
The new line up would be:
Pg – Teague Sg – DeRozan – Sf – Josh Pf – Horford C – Bargnani
Bench – Jamal, Marvin, TMac, Zaza, Collins, Sy, and whoever else.
Rufus1
December 9th, 2011
5:20 pm
Pistons waive RIP..
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
5:26 pm
Ramon,
I like.
rob
December 9th, 2011
5:28 pm
Ramon, i like the trade
I luv big stanky booty
December 9th, 2011
5:29 pm
Here should be the hawks lineup for this season
PG – Teague
SG – Joe Johnson
SF – Josh Smith
PF- Horford
C – Benson
Bench
SF/SG – Tracy McGrady
SG – Ronnie Brewer
PG – Earl Watson
C- ZaZa
C – Twin Collins
C – Asik
SF – Marvin Williams
Street Clothes – Pape Sy
** Sign and Trade Jamal Crawford for Asik and Brewer…Slap Amnesty clause on Hinrich
I think this team could get past the second round if every player plays to his maximum potential.
I luv big stanky booty
December 9th, 2011
5:31 pm
Ramon,
That would be a great lineup..the Highlight factory would still be intact with DeRozan, Smith, and Crawford putting on a show..Good Stuff
WC_HAWKS FAN_WC
December 9th, 2011
5:32 pm
Lets do a sign and trade with J.C with Minn for Beasley and then turn around and trade J.Smith for a true center and some bench player or 1 bench player and draft picks.
DHD
December 9th, 2011
5:34 pm
Lakers going for Chris Paul. Hawks going for Earl Watson. This is how the Hawks roll and why we will NEVER have an NBA championship.
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:36 pm
WC, when you said the name BEASLEY, you lost me. I wouldn’t trade Pape Sy for Beasley. He’s Derrick Coleman but with a lot less talent. He stays higher than Method Man.
I figured you guys would like the trade. The Hawks get their Center, who would probably be the best shooter on the team, allowing Josh and Al to still work inside, and have a size advantage.
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 9th, 2011
5:37 pm
DAMN. Detroit to amnesty Rip. No way of telling b4hand but we wound up with McGrady.
Thad Yo signs for $42 mil, 5 years.
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
5:39 pm
Ramon,
Mostly I like getting out from under Joe’s contract, without taking back something onerous.
ntrigue
December 9th, 2011
5:40 pm
MC,
Whatever happened to us signing Jeremy Hazell? Will he be in camp as well? He would definitely help out if we loose Jamal
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 9th, 2011
5:40 pm
Ra’mon why would TOR do that? And Bargnani is not a center. Hes not a shot creator and hes not a rim protector. Horford and Bargnani would be soft as all hell.
So all you have is Teague creating shots and Josh protecting the rim. Im not ready to hand the keys to DeRozan.
Not sure why TOR gets older…
DSC
December 9th, 2011
5:41 pm
Can we just trade Smith for an unprotected first round pick to a bottom feeder and get Perry Jones? The kid is gonna be like TMAC in his prime, not the old timer we’re getting
DSC
December 9th, 2011
5:41 pm
trade smith for scrubs and unprotected first round pick….****
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 9th, 2011
5:44 pm
ntrigue
LMAO if you HAD TO pick a guy with ABSOLUTELY WORSE defense than Jamal. And only had his college career to base it off of yes he could help.
A perimeter scorer who can help the defense big men is what we need. AND another Rim protector. Sadly this will not happen with Horford on the team!
As soon as Bogut is available Leuer + BOGUT.
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
5:44 pm
Wow Ra’mon . . . as if our team was soft before, you just made it a lot softer with that trade. Way to turn us into Golden State.
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:45 pm
Sautee, that always help. And to make it even better, you don’t HAVE to resign Jamal. And next off season, you’re left with even more cap room. And next off season you can possibly make a run at D. Williams, who will be looking to bolt after Brooklyn loses out on DHoward AND loses their lottery pick for tampering this year.
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
5:45 pm
ding!
Just Joe
December 9th, 2011
5:47 pm
I see Vince Carter in our future. Veteran minimum of course.
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:47 pm
Northcyde, how would that team make us softer? Only player you are really losing is Joe Johnson. Do you think Joe is the tough player on this team? If anything you’re able to be tougher, because you have MORE salary room to fill out the roster with hard nose players, because you save 6-7 million immediately!
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:49 pm
If Sund signs Vince Carter and Iverson, I’m going to swear that Sund is getting roster tips from NeeNee off of Atlanta Housewives.
DSC
December 9th, 2011
5:50 pm
All I want is Perry Jones and we can just go from there. Actually thats a lie: I want a new owner, gm, coach, and roster that starts with Perry Jones. Maybe if anything like that happens soon we can gut this team like a fish and start over because no one wants to see this team. Imagine getting trading some “stars” like JJ, Al, or Smoove for an unprotected top lottery pick. We then build up through the draft by getting Jones and maybe a great pg like Tony Wroten Tu Holloway or Kabongo. This team is going nowhere and its taking the fans with it. Sell, rehire, and get some young players this city can be excited about!!!
Just Joe
December 9th, 2011
5:52 pm
Think of it this way, having Vince, T Mac, and Iverson on the bench is a good way to get LD fired.
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
5:52 pm
Flavor Flav,
It’s likely not possible to get out from under Joe’s contract AND be very choosy in what we get back.
Just Joe
December 9th, 2011
5:53 pm
Nets would be most desperate for Joe, and could offer role players like Farmar, Morrow, and S&T Humphries in return.
Ra'mon
December 9th, 2011
5:54 pm
Joe, Toronto would do that deal, because they get an immediate all star. As well as the Executive was the one who traded for Joe in the first place when in Phoenix. Derozan averages a steal a game. Either way, there’s no way I wouldn’t rather have them compared to Joe’s contract.
Sawyer
December 9th, 2011
6:00 pm
What does everyone think of a S&T of Crawford for Bogans?
Just Joe
December 9th, 2011
6:00 pm
Not a Bargnani fan, unless he’s playing PF next to a shot-blocking center.
Guido
December 9th, 2011
6:00 pm
Have y’all seen the B-List items particularly, the section where a team can renegotiate player contracts down.
• A new “renegotiation and extension” provision allows an existing contract to be renegotiated so the player is paid a smaller amount over a longer period, but the player’s salary cannot decrease by more than 40 percent. Renegotiations previously could only increase a player’s salary.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7329408/new-items-added-nba-collective-bargaining-agreement
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 9th, 2011
6:01 pm
Either way, there’s no way I wouldn’t rather have them compared to Joe’s contract.
And thats what Toronto thinks as well. Only desperate contenders want Joes contract
superiorblogman
December 9th, 2011
6:01 pm
Rip Hamilton Free to Sign with anyone
He was cut not a amnesty victim so he can sign with anyone. Cut or waived meaning same thing happened to him that happened to Bibby with the Wizs and he left and went to Miami because it was his choice. They say his top choice is the Bulls. I would love to sign him on the cheap he would definitely make up for Jamal. On another note, does not look like the market for Jamal is as great as once believed
Guido
December 9th, 2011
6:02 pm
S&T for Crawford is dumb why don’t they just keep him. Apparently they have the cap space to do the sign and trade. Why don’t they just keep him since they have the room.
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
6:03 pm
Atlanta Hawks roster if we DIDN’T make the Hinrich trade . . .
PG – Teague
G – Johnson
F – Marvin
PF – Smith
C – Horford
Bench
6th – ( C ) Zaza
7th – ( G ) Jordan Crawford
8th – ( F ) Chris Singleton ( 2011 1st round pick . . defensive specialist )
9th – ( PG ) Bibby
10th – ( C ) Collins
Benson . . Rolle . . . Sy
Starters would get heavy minutes, similar to the 2008 – 09 Hawk team that saw all of our starters average over 33 minutes a game. Zaza would probably lead the bench in minutes with around 19 per game, unless Jordan or Singleton emerged as an asset off the bench that needed more playing time.
Singleton would’ve been a guy that Hawks fans would’ve instantly fallen in love with, seeing that he’s what we all want Marvin to be right now.
Joe.Jeff.Smith.Leuer.Bogut
December 9th, 2011
6:03 pm
Not a Horford fan, unless he’s playing PF next to a shot-blocking center and a shot-creating SF.
Not a Smith fan, unless he’s playing [PnR SF] next to a shot-blocking center and a [perimeter] PF.
Just Joe
December 9th, 2011
6:07 pm
Horford and Smith fan no matter what, but yes, would love to see a front court of those two next to Bynum, Howard, Chandler, Bogut, Jordan, Gasol, etc…
Sautee
December 9th, 2011
6:09 pm
“Not a Horford fan, unless he’s playing PF next to a shot-blocking center and a shot-creating SF.
Not a Smith fan, unless he’s playing [PnR SF] next to a shot-blocking center and a [perimeter] PF.”
So why aren’t you a Bucks fan? Or a Rocket’s fan? They seem to have the players you favor (or should we say Flavor?
superiorblogman
December 9th, 2011
6:10 pm
I was the first one to point out how stupid that Hinrich for 2 1st round picks and taking on slightly more salary was, but no; some racist posters that like to think that a white guy is always some type of high IQ player swore that it was good. I got banned from about 3 sites behind that horrible trade for my continuous hateful comments towards anyone that would support such. I have since learned to just sit back and observe. From that trade alone I learned who the truly intelligent posters are when it comes to the sport we are here to discuss. That trade was worse than any trade Billy Knight ever made. I promise you guys, if Sund had lottery pick after lottery pick there would be know doubt that he is worse than Billy Knight. I still think he is.
Ryan
December 9th, 2011
6:10 pm
Seems Rip is gonna sign with the Bulls so that def kills any S&T with the bulls. I hear that the Knicks want to dump Turiaf on the cheap to get cap room. Hmm….
superiorblogman
December 9th, 2011
6:15 pm
Keith Bogans will probably be cut. I think he would be a great addition as a defensive minded guy who can also knock down open shots.
SG Joe/McGrady/Bogans
We need all the quality depth we can get being we are going to have all these games crammed in. I have no faith in Pape or some undrafted guy. Just another excuse for losing.
Dept. Of Unintended Irony
December 9th, 2011
6:15 pm
“I promise you guys, if Sund had lottery pick after lottery pick there would be know doubt that he is worse than Billy Knight.”
Know doubt? I knew doubt and believe me you are no doubt.
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
6:16 pm
Ra’mon
December 9th, 2011
5:47 pm
Northcyde, how would that team make us softer? Only player you are really losing is Joe Johnson. Do you think Joe is the tough player on this team? If anything you’re able to be tougher, because you have MORE salary room to fill out the roster with hard nose players, because you save 6-7 million immediately!
*********************
Ramon . . you’re talking about Andrea Bargnani . . at center . . a guy who is arguably one of the poorest defenders among starting centers in the NBA. Even Horford dominates that dude.
Bargnani doesn’t defend nor does he rebound. All he’d represent is another big man on the team that would rather shoot 20 footers, than bang on the inside.
So yeah, adding Andrea Bargnani to the Hawks makes us hella soft. Tissue paper soft.
I know people despise JJ’s contract, but that’s an absolute horrible trade man. If Horford and Smith aren’t going to battle on the inside, Bargnani DEFINITELY isn’t going to battle. People want him to be the next Dirk, but at least Dirk will rebound. Bargnani doesn’t even rebound as well as Marvin.
DeRozan shot 9% from three last year. LOL . . he was 5 – 52 from 3. Damn . . even I can go 5 – 52.
So that trade makes us soft on the interior, plus adds a slasher who cannot shoot whatsoever from 3 point range.
I’ll pass on that trade, and just wait to amnesty JJ when he starts to fall off.
ryan
December 9th, 2011
6:21 pm
Its so depressing that we see these other teams make moves thanks to Joe Johnson contract we can’t do a damn thing passing on Paul was bad enough but $JJ will be the death of the Hawks .
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
6:33 pm
@ superior . . . I didn’t like the Hinrich trade because that trade wasn’t going to elevate us to EC Finals status. It seemed to be more of a desperation move to try to salvage a season that really started to slip away starting right before the All-Star break.
Bibby was almost useless, and Teague was still an off and on player. And while Hinrich was better than both, the trade didn’t make much sense. He wasn’t a game changing type player that we needed. I would’ve much rather saw Teague and Jordan get the playing time that Drew was giving to Bibby and Mo Evans, than trading them for Hinrich.
I still say that the Hawks made that move to prevent from paying even a little Luxury Tax, which may have happened had we kept Bibby, Jordan, and the 2011 draft pick. But if you’re a team that is not planning to make a big splash via free agency, the easiest way to get value out of cheap talent, is to keep your draft picks and see who develops out of it.
hawks_4_life
December 9th, 2011
6:35 pm
Bulls seem to really want Jamal, I hope we can get something done. The only way we can get out of these bad contracts is to start at the top with JJ.
superiorblogman
December 9th, 2011
6:38 pm
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
6:33 pm
@ superior . . . I didn’t like the Hinrich trade because that trade wasn’t going to elevate us to EC Finals status. It seemed to be more of a desperation move to try to salvage a season that really started to slip away starting right before the All-Star break.
Bibby was almost useless, and Teague was still an off and on player. And while Hinrich was better than both, the trade didn’t make much sense. He wasn’t a game changing type player that we needed. I would’ve much rather saw Teague and Jordan get the playing time that Drew was giving to Bibby and Mo Evans, than trading them for Hinrich.
I still say that the Hawks made that move to prevent from paying even a little Luxury Tax, which may have happened had we kept Bibby, Jordan, and the 2011 draft pick. But if you’re a team that is not planning to make a big splash via free agency, the easiest way to get value out of cheap talent, is to keep your draft picks and see who develops out of it.
Northcyde: We took on more salary to add Hinrich. So, he pushed us closer to the luxury than what we would have had with Bibby, Jordan, and the pick.
northcyde
December 9th, 2011
6:45 pm
Ryan . . . that’s BS.
We can’t ( or won’t ) do anything, because ownership REFUSES to make a trade of Horford or Smith for a player that may be a better fit chemistry wise . . . or they don’t make a trade deadline deal of a player that could bring us back some assets.
IF you were going to trade JJ, the time to do it was right before the 2010 trade deadline. It would’ve been hard to justify that trade though, seeing that he was having an All-NBA type year, and the Hawks were battling for a top 3 seed all the way until late March.
Had we’d not re-signed JJ, you’re playing Russian Roulette in free agency, because it would be a very distinct possibility that we wouldn’t have been a playoff team in 2010 – 11. And if that was the case, would a big name come here?
JJ’s contract doesn’t prevent this team for doing something. If they REALLY wanted to do something, they could do it. Heck . . trading Jamal for Samuel Dalembert may have been a start. At least then, we could see how “The Core” functions with a true center.
If it were successful, we’d retain Dalembert’s Bird Rights as he became an unrestricted free agent, giving us the option to either re-sign him and go into the Luxury Tax, or do a sign and trade for some extra pieces.
The ASG and Sund would rather play it safe by keeping what we have.
Wabe
December 9th, 2011
6:47 pm
I wouldn’t say Teague was an on and off player northcyde.
Dude literally got no chance to prove his worth. But when Hinrich went down, he actually got a chance to prove his worth without worrying about being yanked. And he showed he was clearly the better option.
Say what you want about JC2 being an undersized 2-gaurd, but he’d look pretty good in a Hawks uniform this season.
Same with those draft picks. Could’ve used those to fill out this roster with some talent.