Atlanta Hawks: Jamal Crawford’s free-agent journey

According to Frank Isola of the Daily News in New York, Jamal prefers “returning to the New York area if he does not re-sign with the Atlanta Hawks.” Isola suggests that Jamal’s chances of signing with New York or New Jersey increased when he signed with agent Andy Miller, who “has close ties to both the Knicks’ and Nets’ organizations.”

As a proponent of the popular “players almost always take more money” school of thought, I’ve never followed the “agent-likes-the-team-so-player-will-sign-there” angle. The same dots were connected for J.J. to the Knicks even before last summer (“Done deal”) . The same kind of thinking also had J.J. going to Chicago (“dead set on joining the Bulls”).

We know how all that turned out once the Hawks flashed more cash at J.J. So let’s be real: That’s what Jamal is looking for, too, as he seeks out his last big contract. How do I know this? Because Jamal is a human being who responds to financial incentives. Also, I follow him on Twitter.

For weeks, fans from everywhere have queried Jamal on whether he likes their favorite team. He likes Atlanta, Chicago, Portland, New Jersey and New York. I’d also add Indiana, Sacamento, and any of those other teams that have lots of cap space just waiting to be used.

Jamal succinctly summed it up with this great tweet: “I have interest in who has interest in me.”

Ah, to be a scoring shooting guard in a free-agent market that should prove favorable to such a player. How favorable? I don’t know, but ESPN.com’s 5-on-5 took a shot at setting the value for Jamal and other top free agents.

Among the four guys on the panel to offer an opinion, the low offer for Jamal was the tax-payer mid-level exception of two years and $5 million and the high was three years and $22 million. The Hawks can’t swing either of those amounts unless they pay the luxury tax or amnesty someone (love using that as a verb) and then pay Jamal.

AJC wise guy Jeff Schultz thinks it would be a big blow to the Hawks to lose Jamal’s bench scoring. I think the impact could be mitigated with more possessions used by Teague, Hinrich and Al plus signing a replacement for Jamal who scores more efficiently and defends and rebounds. As always, I could be wrong.

(Before you ask, I don’t know who that player could be. First I need to figure out the Hawks’ plans regarding the tax and amnesty, and then see what the market looks like. Heck, for that matter, we still need to wait and see what provisions make it into the final, final CBA.)

Etc.

  • Teams are expected to play two home-and-home preseason games against opponents in their geographical area. It looks like the Hawks will draw Charlotte.
  • Mark Murphy of the Boston Herald says the Hawks are on Big Baby’s wish list. Murphy also speculates on the Hawks trading Smoove and amnestying Marvin (yeah, I’m going to use it as a verb all the time).
  • Howard Beck of the New York Times reports that the amnesty clause won’t be used much this season. Beck also offers up “five bad contracts worth expunging.”
  • Hoopinion’s Bret LaGree opines that the new modified waiver process for amnestied guys will influence Atlanta’s decision on whether to amnesty Marvin: “If a bunch of teams use the amnesty provision immediately, then it’s less likely Williams would draw sufficient interest under the third part of the amnesty provision wherein another team currently under the cap would defray some of the money Atlanta owes him.”
  • Shaq says he would have played for the Hawks but Rick Sund “wanted to give all that money to Joe Johnson last year.” You might remember Shaq decided he couldn’t accept less than the full MLE or a bench role with the Hawks and then signed with the Celtics. You may also remember this proved to be the right call for the Hawks after Twin’s emergence and Shaq’s fade.
  • Oakland (Mich.) University will retire Keith “Kito” Benson’s jersey at halftime of its game tonight vs. Tennessee. The game is on ESPNU at 9 p.m.

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

319 comments Add your comment

Gilley

November 28th, 2011
6:03 pm

Gilley

November 28th, 2011
6:04 pm

PLAY BALL!!!!! I forgot Kirk Hinrich played for us. That’s how long it has been…SMH

Cheesy

November 28th, 2011
6:20 pm

These ASG clowns need to get out and have nothing to do with the Hawks. They can’t even get a buyer own the team with the big mess they created.

Hawk n the Ham

November 28th, 2011
6:29 pm

Oh yeah, there was a draft, and we drafted somebody. Forgot all about Keith “lanky lanky” Benson.

darrell starks

November 28th, 2011
6:37 pm

O yeah i forgot about Keith Benson 2.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

November 28th, 2011
6:41 pm

Go sign Wilcox a good solid player to come of the bench and plus have some toughnes in his game, as much as i like Jamal the asking price at 10mill is to steep for the Hawks.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

MannyT

November 28th, 2011
6:42 pm

I think the NBA should use the verb amnestitize.

You put the contract to sleep, but the player wakes up with new NBA health (since he gets the old money and the new.)

Time to put the air in the balls…

darrell starks

November 28th, 2011
6:45 pm

2011 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, COLLINS OR ZAZA

BENCH HINRICH, DAMIEN, MARVIN, WILCOX, ZAZA

RESERVE PAPE, KEITH B.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
6:51 pm

Resigning Jamal will be a HUGE mistake for this franchise financially going forward.

I am not a Jamal hater – he is one of my favorite players in the NBA. But we are trying to win championships here.

His ONE role on this team is to score points. He was awful in the Chicago series. He did not hit double figures in 3 out of the 6 games. He is supposed to be INSTANT OFFENSE. I don’t even need to write about how pathetic his defense is.

DO NOT OVERPAY FOR SOMEONE WHO WILL NOT HELP YOU WIN A RING. Jamal is NOT worth the money he will demand.

Instead, pursue Allen Iverson – someone who will bring fans, who still has a wicked crossover, who loves this city (instead of Detroit and Memphis), and understands this damn game.

DO NOT make the mistake you made with Marvin and overpay this guy. Let him go to the City, NJN, or Portland to be with his buddy Brandon Roy.

This is something I feel VERY strongly about. The guy had 2 f’ing points in a playoff game.

Also, people don’t remember this probably, but Horford was OUTPLAYED by Carlos Boozer in the Chicago series. BOOZER HAD TURF TOE.

Summary: Let Jamal walk, resign everyone, and start Teague. Teague Hinrich Joe as your 1 2 3 or Teague and Joe at the 1 and 2, and START Damien at the 3. Let Duck (who finally has a straight back no homo) come off the bench with ZaZa and Hinrich and A.I. A.I. will get minutes surely.

DO NOT OVERPAY JAMAL. OUR CAP SITUATION ALREADY SUCKS. LET HIM WALK

HE DIDN’T EVEN HAVE A 50 POINT GAME FOR US WTF

darrell starks

November 28th, 2011
6:55 pm

WOW IS DEANDRE JORDAN A FREE AGENT, MAN CAN ASG GET THIS GUY ASAP.
Josh, Horford, Deandre could be scary .
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FreshFromATL

November 28th, 2011
7:00 pm

This is going to get very, very interesting in about two weeks.

darrell starks

November 28th, 2011
7:00 pm

MAN WANT 2 CHANGE MY TEAM.

STARTER JEFF, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, DEANDRE

BENCH HINRICH, DAMIEN, MARVIN, WILCOX, ZAZA

RESERVE PAPE, COLLINS
STREET CLOTHES KEITH B.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A concerned fan..

November 28th, 2011
7:04 pm

JeJe, exactly! I think A.I. is desperate for a return to the NBA. He still has game, SCORING AND CROSSING PEOPLE UP. RICK SUND, CALL HIS AGENT, AND INVITE HIM TO TRAINING CAMP!! HE WILL SELL TICKETS!! CMON!!

A concerned fan..

November 28th, 2011
7:04 pm

darrell, The Clippers are about to lock that dude up..

FreshFromATL

November 28th, 2011
7:08 pm

Great points JeJe, I agree fully.

O'Brien

November 28th, 2011
7:17 pm

The problem I have with Jamal is LD does not know how to use him correctly. But to be a championship team, you need good bench play (imo). And jamal gives you that.

That being said, he is not worth the money he will receive.

hawks21

November 28th, 2011
7:44 pm

Please don’t TRADE Josh, what are you going to receive? He is the best defender, rebounder,block shots, and crowd pleaser with monster JAMS! Look at the stats sheets if you don’t agree.

Prison Mike

November 28th, 2011
7:58 pm

Should have traded JC at the deadline and gotten some picks. Yes he is a very productive player the majority of the time but this current financial situation was unavoidable. Even if the trade only netted a solid 2nd round pick, that player would be a valuable rotation player while being cheap for several years.

Something that was needed with the old or new cba.

Melvin

November 28th, 2011
7:58 pm

Hoopshype is reporting that Brandon Roy will be the TrailBlazers amnesty player. This maybe a chance for the Hawks to correct Billy Knight wrong draft choice…LOL… Where is Sheldon these days?

Gwinnett Fred

November 28th, 2011
7:58 pm

Don’t see keeping Crawford – too much coin.

I do feel better about losing him, however, after seeing Teague mature as much as he did last year. And now that we have a defender at the point too, the younger guard rotation will ease the pain of losing Jamal, though JJ sure as heck better be ready to justify his hefty salary – that albatross (contract, not JJ) is the teams biggest cross to bear and will be for a few more years.

ILL-Logical

November 28th, 2011
8:10 pm

Jamal Crawford is a pro’s pro. When he arrived at the Hawk’s training camp he was so much into sticking with the team-more on how he got here in a minute-that he played point. In fact, the Seko Smith reports had him getting to where ever he wanted and setting up folks for easy shots.
My take on what happened next is that, because the regime had a vested interest in Mike Bibby starting($15million)the coach told Jamal to be Jamal eg, be a shooting guard.
Now ,IIRC Jamal waived his no trade clause to come to Atlanta. My surmise is that representations were made relative to long term plans regarding his tenure with the Hawks. Well ,we know how that worked out: the team signed a player,Hinrich, whose salary was approximately the same as Jamal’s and left him hanging. Because he could play the point and the 2. Yeah,right.

Can’t trust the ASG to do keep its word; act with fiscal responsibility-JJ’s contract or to understand that fans want to win and be entertained and ,frankly, neither Joe nor All-Pro Al are entertaining.

Dawg

November 28th, 2011
8:18 pm

I think that the Hawks should simply wait and wait and wait and then when all of the vets have been picked over, the Hawks can then give minimum contracts to who ever is left over.

Yeah, that is worth trying.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 28th, 2011
8:25 pm

Copy That!

“The 2 storylines I am looking forward to (in camp), is 1) how Teague plays, and if LD decides to start him and 2) how Marvin plays, and if LD decides to start him” -O’Brien-
________________

O’Brien, based on how our team is built? I would say to both of those game plans. Nothing else makes sense. Also,
IF coach does not start Teague this season, not only will he draw the ire of management, but. OWS will occupy Phillips Arena as well.

I’m just sick about the Meruelo deal falling apart – just sick.
I really thought ole’ Alex was gonna’ bail us out & put his money where his mouth is. I would really like to know the scoop on what really went down with all that. I mean – really?

More ASKG … Ugggh! Cry me a river.
___________________

Re: Jamal, I must agree with “what he said.” No holes in that logic. Who can we get to score off the bench – A.I.? That might work too, even if Iverson doesn’t play a lick of defense, at least he won’t drain the bank.

Worldwide Clyde

November 28th, 2011
8:30 pm

If we would have let Marvin and Bibby go when they were free agents we could have kept Jamal. That’s why Sund needs to go. His track record is horrible.

SIGN SEAN WILLIAMS
SIGN IVERSON
SIGN DEANDRE

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 28th, 2011
8:34 pm

O’Brien

*I would say YES to both of those game plans.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 28th, 2011
8:40 pm

“What he’s said!”

That comment was in reference to what Grandmaster JeJe posted re: Jamal.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 28th, 2011
8:46 pm

Flip Flop!

Wait! Did Iverson lead the league in steals at PG at a point in his early MVP career? If I’m thinking correct, Iverson should still provide some defensive tenacity moreso than Jamal did for a fraction of the cost @ 10.8M – right?

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
8:47 pm

Four years in and Sund still HAS NOT MADE ONE CHANGE TO THE CORE.

I’d love Big Baby but we have nothing to offer. Boston will resign Green so no way they want Duck.

I hope Mo finds a team…He’s put in countless hours / his life into these damn negotiations.

I hope someone overpays for these FA bigs so Miami doesn’t get them. #anyonebutmiami

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
8:49 pm

Yes drmaryb. Sign Iversoon. He, Teague and Damien will be our sleeper players. All we have heard on Teague in the last six months is good news. He is one of the five most athletic PGs in the league

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
8:54 pm

I hope LD has matured as a coach going into this year:

1) START JEFF TEAGUE. HE HELD HIS OWN AGAINST THE YOUNGEST MVP IN NBA HISTORY.

2) LET DAMIEN PLAY. The guy shut down LeBron the first seconds he was in a Hawks uniform (2nd quarter at Miami). He did not play again in the game.
WTF? How do you shut down the best player in the league and then not return?

This is gonna be a hella good defensive unit. The whole season depends on if Josh will ATTACK the basket and if Horford is going to actually rebound or not

You know....

November 28th, 2011
9:17 pm

The Hawks looked real good Starting Twin W/ Al @ the 4, smoove 3. They might turn out to be badasses that way in a short season.

Najeh Davenpoop

November 28th, 2011
9:32 pm

Sam, no matter how often you spam the AJC blogs with that video, I refuse to click on it out of principle.

“Where is Sheldon these days?”

Probably in Candace Parker where he belongs.

Najeh Davenpoop

November 28th, 2011
9:38 pm

As for the topic of the article… Jamal, it’s been real, I will never forget all the big shots you hit the last two years, but the salary you are going to command isn’t realistic for this team, especially when the team has a more complete player on the roster (Teague) ready to take your minutes and a cheaper free agent available (Iverson) who can step into your role and provide most of what you provided. I’ll miss the 4 point plays though. You are more than welcome to keep checking this blog, but for your own feelings’ sake please skip over vava74’s posts.

Najeh Davenpoop

November 28th, 2011
9:40 pm

” START JEFF TEAGUE. HE HELD HIS OWN AGAINST THE YOUNGEST MVP IN NBA HISTORY.”

Seriously, if Teague isn’t the opening day starter, I’m not sure LD will ever start him. There is no excuse for not starting him going forward. None.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
9:43 pm

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
9:46 pm

Would anyone here ever offer Smoove for one of Utah’s frontcourt bigs (Jefferson/Millsap)? I remember on trade deadline day, we saw some rumors of Smoove to Utah…Intriguing

northcyde

November 28th, 2011
9:54 pm

Gwinnett . . . JJ’s contract isn’t that big of an issue. . yet. People talk like he’s already making 22 million a year. He made 16 mill last year and will make 18 mill this year. That’s top 20 player type money, so he does need to play up to that level on most nights.

JeJe . . . I agree. Iverson is a low cost, relatively low risk type guy to replace Jamal. No way I’d give AI the type of minutes that Jamal got, but I would play him 7 minutes ( on the low side ) to 18 minutes a game ( on the high side ). And yes, he WILL sell tickets. And maybe he’d be the guy that could teach Teague how to sustain his aggressiveness and become a better scorer. Instead of hiring Nick Van Exel to try to bring out the “dog” in him . . let arguably the best small guard in the history of the NBA bring out the “dog”.

Big Baby Davis . . . if he were a better rebounder, definitely. But he barely rebounds as well as Marvin . . and that;s a BIG PROBLEM if you’re a PF.

Re-signing Jamal . . . I already knew that would be a no-go, and he does too. Jamal . . thanks for two good years in ATL. I still say that the guy that should’ve been his replacement ( Jordan Crawford ), is the guy that are going to make all Hawks fans cuss in the coming years.

Rev in Tampa

November 28th, 2011
9:57 pm

I cannot conceive the possibility of Teague starting on the bench this year. Of course it made no sense that he stayed on the bench last year. Just reflecting back to LD’s decisions last year is causing my blood pressure to rise.

cpsman_atlanta

November 28th, 2011
9:58 pm

BOYCOTT PHILIPS ARENA!!!! BOYCOTT ATLANTA SPIRIT GROUP!!!!

Moses Quilsby III

November 28th, 2011
10:04 pm

Here is the starting five I would love to see for Hawks:

C – Deandre Jordan
PF – Al Horford
SF – Josh Smith
SG – Joe Johnson
PG – Jeff Teague

Bench
C – Keith Benson – Street Clothes / IR backup
C – ZaZa Pachulia
PF – Chris Wilcox
SG – Shannon Brown
PG – Kirk Hinrich
SF – Damien Wilkins
SF – Al Thornton
PG – TJ Ford

Key losses:

Marvin Williams ( via amnesty )
Pape Sy ( D-league )
Josh Powell ( Free Agency )
Jason Collins ( trade for cash )
Jamal Crawford ( wish he could stay, but the reality is he’s gone unfortunately )

northcyde

November 28th, 2011
10:05 pm

“Where is Sheldon these days?”

Probably in Candace Parker where he belongs.

****************

LOL . . I know that’s right. Probably in RUSSIA right now with Candace as we speak.

SteveW

November 28th, 2011
10:09 pm

LD’s two starting lineups will probably be:

Hinrich
JJ
Marvin
Smoove
Al

And depending on who we’re playing:

Hinrich
JJ
Smoove
Al
Collins – If he re-signs. ZaZa if not.

LD won’t start Teague. It’s not in his DNA. I don’t know why, we all speculate as to why. But he can’t. The exception is if Hinrich is hurt on opening day – then he’s Wally Pipped maybe. Or maybe not with LD, the worst Coach in any League of any sport above 6th grade level I’ve ever seen during the regular season.

Playoffs he was ok however.

SteveW

November 28th, 2011
10:12 pm

Kito was drafted to stop Javale McGee basically. Just like Collins is the Dwight stopper basically. Both contribute some other things, but both know their roles (Kito will know his).

And it’s not just Javale. Any long, athletic Center/PF.

Al is to short for Javale. ZaZa is too slow. Same for Collins. We needed a long Big. Kito is that man.

SteveW

November 28th, 2011
10:17 pm

I’ve been saying the Russian billionaire gets Jamal for a long time. I still think that’s where he goes. And I think he gets more than 3 years, 22 mill. also. He’s not worth it, but he’ll get overpaid.

And Jamal – Thanks! I’ve loved seeing you play man. Your the craziest shooter in the NBA, but when your on, your massively entertaining. Good passer also. No D however.

And is it just me (and no JJ pound the ball jokes please!!) – But is JJ the best dribbler when he’s trying to juke somebody else I have ever seen?? Seriously, nobody is a better 1 on 1 dribbler than JJ in any generation I’ve ever seen.

Of course I’m not talking about Iso-Joe stuff….

SteveW

November 28th, 2011
10:36 pm

So the roster is shaping up to be:

Bigs – Al, Smoove, ZaZa, Kito, Collins, Rolle

Wings – Marvin, Wilkens

G’s – JJ, Hinrich, Teague, Sy

That’s 12 – I wonder who the 13th guy will be? Another G, probably a combo or PG I’d say.

We could do worse than Ai if he’s in any type of shape at all.

Anybody heard from Ken Strickland? Or should I ask…

SteveW

November 28th, 2011
10:38 pm

Now Sund has said consistently he is going to do whatever he can to keep Jamal, for whatever that’s worth

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
10:52 pm

LOL SteveW. Great posts.

LD seems to have gotten the “I Hate Young/Rookie PGs And Will Never Play Them” gene from Woody.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 28th, 2011
10:54 pm

Bring back the same team as last year, except:

sign Iverson, let Jamal walk

Start Teague at the 1, with Hinrich at the 2 and Joe at 3

Or Teague at the 1, Joe at the 2, and Damien at the 3

This is going to be a damn good defensive team IF JOSH AND HORFORD give effort every play.

I feel like I’m repeating myself.

And don’t forget: Horford was OUTPLAYED by Boozer (with a turf toe) in round 2.

IT’S TIME TO COMPETE. Enough of these damn embarrassing playoff losses. Chicago owned that series after game 1. Still can’t believe we won game 1 AND Rose got hurt AND we just gave it away.

#DAMNIT

Section 303

November 28th, 2011
11:00 pm

I like Jamal Crawford. He’s been a lot of fun to watch. But, like Najeh said, no way the Hawks match his offer. I thought they might after hearing Michael Gearon speak last year, but don’t see it happening now.

I think Big Baby would be a nice addition…as long as he plays as hard here as he did in Boston. I sometimes wonder if he was a product of the Celtic vets (KG, Pierce, Alan) getting on his a$$.

Big Dog

November 28th, 2011
11:16 pm

We can win with that same stuff you put out there last year. This team is on the skids. Allen Iverson? You kidding right? That old man would be a worse liability defense than Mike Bibby. Do you guys know anything about basketball or is this some kind of circus?

Big Dog

November 28th, 2011
11:17 pm

We cant win with that same stuff.from last year.

Can I axe you a question?

November 28th, 2011
11:17 pm

Who the EFFFFFFF cares about the NBA? Did these thugs not want to hang out with their multiple families this xmas? Barf. NBA sucks asssssssss!!!

JSS

November 28th, 2011
11:17 pm

@ Najeh Davenpoop…
“Probably in Candace Parker where he belongs.”

Playa, that’s just wrong! ;-) “Man, it is good to see folks doing it!” Ice Cube – ‘No Vaseline’

Rev in Tampa

November 28th, 2011
11:19 pm

I really enjoyed Jamal when Woody was the coach, but under LD’s coaching I could only see his liabilities on defense. Maybe his defense was as poor under Woody and I was blissfully ignorant.

Big Dog

November 28th, 2011
11:27 pm

Id take woody over Drew any day of the week. this team was headed up with woody. I dont know what this is now. best thing can happen to the hawks is to take advantage of Smooves celebrity and bring howard over and lets ball.

keep the same team from last year and we get even worse.

Air Zaza

November 28th, 2011
11:33 pm

Sign Allen Iverson for vet min.

Rufus1

November 28th, 2011
11:40 pm

ASG cancelled the sale….

I think this new CBA will make the Hawks very profitable, so they cancelled the sale of the team. I think the Thrashers were losing ASG money, but the Hawks were slightly profitable. Under the new CBA they will make a good profit….This may cause them to go into the LUX tax for the right player(like, Chris Humphries)

Big Dog

November 28th, 2011
11:48 pm

Move the hawks to the CBA and then they have a shot at the championship

Worldwide Clyde

November 29th, 2011
12:07 am

With the same team as last year what is there to look forward to if your a Hawks fan? Another second round loss? *yawn*

FIRE SKYHAWK

Grandad

November 29th, 2011
12:08 am

Several points:
____________________________________________

” Teams with cap room can benefit greatly from the amnesty provision by being able to submit a competing offer to claim an amnestied player at a reduced rate. For example, if Cleveland uses its amnesty provision on Baron Davis, a team that is $5 million below the salary cap can submit a $5 million offer to acquire Davis’ contract. If that offer is the highest, the team acquires Davis and is responsible for $5 million of his salary — with Cleveland responsible for the balance.”
____________________________________________

I’ve been studying this stuff:
Best I can figure, the stretch provision is out.
It only applies to contracts going forward.

* So *

Using the above definition / explanation of “Amnesty”
within the new CBA, we could amnesty Joe, for example,
and if a team wanted him & had cap room of, say, $6 mil;
the ownership (whomever) = *[prospective buyer] would save
$30 mil over the life of the contract and gain cap relief.
Thus adding the mid-level exception, ATL could then:
replace Joe with; (example) 3 players, such as:
Battier, Dalembert, and either Jamal or Aron Afflalo, all FA’s.
Now – which do you get more bang for your buck ?

* And *

You can keep both Josh and Al !

____________________________________________

This once again makes the Hawks more attractive to
……………………** SELL ** !!……………………………..

____________________________________________

Which sets up my trade of the day for tomorrow.

Yawl will have to wait as I whet your interest.

____________________________________________

EmirS.

November 29th, 2011
12:21 am

I think Iverson would only be useful to sell tickets and merchandise.

I don’t quite see how he would help out game wise. He’s been in and out of the NBA for the past some years, however I don’t believe he can replace any offense we lose and I strongly doubt he’ll be any better then Jamal on D. Again I see him as an Arena seat filler. And playing him less then 10 minutes will only get him to argue with his coaches for more playing time. And Larry Drew does not posses the balls to stand up to Iverson neither.

However, to also bring him in to be Teague’s mentor would be wonderful.

Like someone mentioned, it’s gonna be fun to watch the start of Dec 9.

JMF

November 29th, 2011
12:22 am

@Grandmaster Jeje we are not trying to win a championship. We have no clue. At least Crawford provided entertainment. If the objective was to win a championship, we would not have made JJ the highest paid player. I wish we were. The only was to a championship is new ownership, and to rebuild. Nobody wants to rebuild but we will just be a 41-41 team. Keep Horford, Teague, and build around them. Unfortunately we a stuck with Joe forever.

Grandad

November 29th, 2011
12:43 am

Cheap FA’s we should be lookin’ at, yawl.
(notice that I did not end my sentence with a preposition)

* Troy Foster – Rebounder (Center / Power Forward)
* Alexis Ajinca – 7-2 (Center)
* Reggie Evans-Rebounder (Pwr Frwrd) Harvey Dahl in shorts
* Luc Richard Mbah a Moute – Defense (Forward)
* Julian Wright (defense) Small Forward
* Jeff Foster (Rebounder) Center
* Aaron Gray (Big Body – High % shooter inside) Center
* Yi Jianlian (for 50 cents take a flyer) outside shooting, athletic Big
* Joey Dorsey (mean,ornery,rugged,shotblckng,Rebndr) Center/PF
* DeMarre Carroll (hustle player / defense) Small Forward
* Hamady Ndiaye (long, shot blocker) Center

TSHHTF

November 29th, 2011
12:45 am

HIRE JEJE AS GM

Grandad

November 29th, 2011
12:51 am

SteveW

We don’t need to worry about JaVale McGee;
he stops himself.

Benson, or anyone who can become our eraser / rim protector…….
inside, needs to be able to slow down the Derek Roses of the world.
-in my opinion-

cp

November 29th, 2011
12:52 am

Rashard McCants could be a young cheap scoring option off the bench. Dude has always had an attitude issue but being out of the league last season might have humbled him. I like Iverson but how much does he have in the tank? Jeff Foster would be great on this team. Dude plays defense and rebounds. We need that coming off the bench… Is Reggie Evans a free agent? He would also bring some toughness and rebounding.

Buddy G

November 29th, 2011
1:02 am

From the previous blog:

“Let’s just hope that their back-end free agent signings are better than Josh Powell and Etan Thomas.” – Astro Joe

Amen.

“Invite Allen Iverson to training camp?” – A concerned fan..

/signed… he could provide exactly what we lose with Jamal for the veteran’s minimum instead of $10m per season. I think he’s learned his lesson and will stay off the bottle/not be locker room poison if given another chance.

“Marvin had an operation and will be the player we thought he was going to be. A short season will be good to the Hawks as they wore down last year.” – joBjo

Might be a bit too optimistic about Marvin. I don’t think he will ever be the superstar he was projected to be (somewhat absurdly in retrospect). But I think he can still play himself into a tradeable asset if he recovers fully. The short season is compressed and will mean more back-to-back games but I think the Hawks are young enough to flourish.

“3- So just how much will Miami have to pay in luxury tax this year?” – Gwinnett Fred

None. The Heat are in a better cap situation than the Hawks:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

“Is Childress still in any way part of the Hawks future” – Gwinnett Fred

Hawks recieve the Sun’s 2012 second round pick after trading Josh Childress to the Suns last offseason.

“Amnesty Drew!” – Hawks Fan Down Under

LOL… best blog suggestion ever.

vava74 November 28th, 2011 3:56 am – Great post… /cosign on all points.

Lets be smart....and realistic

November 29th, 2011
1:18 am

Amnesty Marvin

Starters:

Teague, Joe, Josh, Al, NeNe (we get him with the money we saved from marvin)

Bench:

Kirk Hinrich, Tayshaun Prince(MLE), Vladamir Radmonovic(Bi-Annual), Zaza, Jason Collins, Keith Benson, Pape Sy, Magnum Rolle

SN: We would still lack an established backup SG (not that we would need one wih JJ and kirk here). We COULD take a flier out on guys like T-Mac or Michael Redd (Or we could sign JJ Barea and slide Kirk into the backup SG Spot) OR we could go after Jason richerdson or wait for JR smith to come back from china in march (but he’s a head-case) David lighty or Damien Wilkins would work as well….

The Mavs have to get rid of SOMEBODY. Caron, Peja, Deshaun, and Barea are the prime candidates. They just got Rudy from the blazers over the summer and Roddy Beaubios is another bacup PG for them under contract. My guess is that they will keep their Bigs in tact. My guess is that Barea is the odd man out.

Buddy G

November 29th, 2011
1:18 am

Also from the previous blog:

“I say start Zaza alongside Horford and Josh.” – Geemack

Won’t happen, but I agree. If All-NBA Al wants to play PF, Zaza is the best option for starting Center.

“That’s entering into deep wishful thinking territory…” – vava74

I disagree… I think O’Brien is correct. The Hawks are a veteran team with continuity and still pretty young. The compressed season won’t hurt us as much as it will older teams. Those of you who think the shortened season will favor old players don’t realize they will be playing more back-to-back games to cram 66 games into a shortened time frame.

Astro Joe – Interesting stuff about Glen Davis. I’m much more interested in Jeff Green though. This guy has played his entire career behind two of the greatest small forwards in NBA history… Kevin Durant and Paul Pierce. I think he will never show what kind of player he can be until he plays on a team where he is the primary small forward. Don’t know how the Hawks could do it but if we could cut Marvin loose and land Jeff Green we’d be a much better team.

“Storylines I am looking forward to… how Marvin plays, and if LD decides to start him” – O’Brien

I’m not in a hurry for Marvin to produce. He’s coming off back surgury and probably still needs to be brought along slowly. Remember, a back injury ended Larry Johnson’s career. There is a very real possibility that this one could end Marvin’s, i.e. he may never make it back to his 15ppg form. That’s why I want to see Damien re-signed and starting. I’m way more interested in what Marvin does just prior to the trade deadline (and during the playoffs if he is still a Hawk) than I am in what Marvin does in training camp.

The Real Mandingo

November 29th, 2011
2:58 am

If the Hawks fail to re-sign Jamal Crawford, trust me, the Hawks will regress tremendously. Yes, I used the word “fail” because it would be a monumental failure by Hawks mgmt. not to re-sign Aaron Jamal Crawford. Jamal is/was the Hawks’ best ball handler, best passer, best one-on-one player, best clutch shooter/scorer, best free-throw shooter, best three-point and overall perimeter shooter, and best bench and overall scorer. I will agree Jamal’s defense needs work but that can be fixed. He just needs to be motivated to play defense like when Woody used to get into his butt when he was lazy on defense.

If the Hawks do not re-sign Jamal, coupled with a shortened 66-game season, the Hawks (team) at best should hope to win 35 games this regular season. Yes, that’s right – that comes to a record of 35-31.

I’m reading all these posts about Jeff Teague and what he did in the playoffs against the Bulls earlier this year in the month of May. I know Jeff Teague scored 21 points in three separate games in the playoffs against the Bulls but the Hawks still lost all three games. Bottom line, Teague did not make his teammates or his team better and as a point guard that should be one of his top priorities. Personally, I felt, if Kirk Hinrich didn’t get injured against the Magic, the Hawks could taken the Bulls in the second round because Hinrich can stretch the defense better than Teague.

Again, I’m reading that Allen Ezail Iverson aka The Answer and Bubba Chuck(s) would be a good replacement for Jamal Crawford – wrong. If A.I. brought his talents to Atlanta, he would not be “The Answer” but “The Problem” or pehaps “The Cancer.” If A.I. couldn’t accept coming off the bench in Memphis and backing up Mike Conley, Jr. because he (A.I.) thought he was better than Mike Conley, Jr. (and he was), what makes some of you bloggers think he would be willing to mentor and backup Jeff Teague who’s even worse than Mike Conley, Jr.? I love A.I. but he probably still has a superstar’s mentality and will more than likely pout and complain about a lack of playing time and shot opportunities if the Hawks sign him. He will become a disruptive distraction and perhaps deservedly so.

Don’t forget Jamal Crawford was the MVP in the playoff series against the Orlando Magic earlier this (calendar) year. Jamal scored 23+ points in four consecutive playoff games against the Magic. In twelve playoff games earlier this year, Jamal Crawford scored 19+ points on six occasions. In those six games the Hawks’ record was 5-1; that’s five wins and one loss.

Message to Hawks Mgmt.:

Offer Jamal Crawford a three year deal paying between $32mil.-$36mil. Because this offer is very respectful, Jamal may be inclined to accept this offer or something similar and stay in Atlanta. Please look into freeing up more salary monies by somehow dumping or unloading Marvin’s contract.

Buddy Grizzard

November 29th, 2011
3:37 am

Correction: According to ESPN.com’s Brian Windhorst, the Heat will pay the luxury tax this year:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/10158/why-heat-are-likely-to-part-with-mike-miller

Buddy Grizzard

November 29th, 2011
3:47 am

“I will agree Jamal’s defense needs work but that can be fixed.” – The Real Mandingo

Come on dude get real. He’s 31 years old and he’s not getting any faster. Yes he lit Orlando up because they had nobody that could guard him, but on the other end he would literally step aside and let Jameer Nelson get into the lane at will.

And you think he’s going to get a contract for MORE than the $10m per season he made in his previous contract? The most generous of ESPN’s panel that tried to set his worth said three years, $22m:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/5-on-5-free-agents-111128/what-top-nba-free-agents-really-worth

One said a two-year, $5m exception is the best they would offer and one said they wouldn’t even bother making an offer. Jamal Crawford only shoots the league average on 3’s. He plays ZERO defense and isn’t going to wake up at the end of his career and become a stopper. He is what he is, and the Hawks will be better without him.

The Real Mandingo

November 29th, 2011
3:54 am

^^^^ that should be “…the Hawks could (have) taken the Bulls in the second round…”

The Real Mandingo

November 29th, 2011
4:19 am

@Buddy Grizzard

I will agree to disagree with you concerning Jamal Crawford’s value with the Hawks. I will admit, however, my proposed contract numbers may be a bit inflated due to the fact that overall NBA salaries will probably decrease because of the new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA).

vava74

November 29th, 2011
5:51 am

Most people only watch 50% of the game: offense.

When people watch 100% of the game the know how damaging was Jamal when he played 30 minutes.

His game warrants only 15-25m in a decent team. Hawks qualify as a decent team, so Jamal was vastly overused.

Obviously, there are moments within a season that a player is so hot that you might as well ride on that, but you need to know how to pull back.

Neither Woody nor LD knew how and when to do it.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
5:57 am

Buddy:

“That’s entering into deep wishful thinking territory…” – vava74

I was talking about Josh refraining from shooting from 3 point land.

I like where we are from a roster point of view.

IMO, we are in need of 2 players only:

a rugged rebounder/bruiser who can give us 7/8 minutes of elbow terror (Reggie Evans) and a 5th guard (taking in consideration Sy as a combo and thus the 4th guy in our roster) who can bring some 3 point accuracy and some veteran experience at the PG/SG slots (a Flip Murray type of guy).

That, taking for granted that we re-sign Wilkins and Collins (who is a priceless situational player IMO).

The Truth

November 29th, 2011
7:22 am

NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver, the league’s lead negotiator, said :( referring to the pending system changes)

“But we feel, ultimately, it will give fans in every community hope that their team can compete for championships and that their basis for believing in their team will be a function of management of that team, rather than, as I have said before, how deep the owners’ pockets are or how large the market is.”

LOL, if Mr. Silver believes the Hawks (for example) can now really compete for a championship based on the tentative new CBA deal than he’s wearing rose colored glasses and smoking weed at the same time. If you gave the ASG a million new trading options, they would find a reason to pass if it requires spending more money. With the exiting CBA, I can’t recall Sund using any of them; trade, mid-level or the bi-annual trade exceptions to acquire players. With the new deal comes new acquisition options’ including the amnesty provision and the stretch exception but the ASG will likely resort back to their favorite option, Vet min based of past trends to avoid cost.

Hawksville seems content with Sund passing on signing Jamal Crawford for value and acquiring the same production for less. But since we have Jamal Bird’s rights (assuming the same under the new CBA, why pass on him? Instead, why not use him to acquire a better player for less? In fact, Woody’s insistence on Jamal waving his 2nd year player’s option so the Hawks could acquire his Birds rights was pivotal in signing him. So why not use it given the new CBA?

“the new agreement also makes it muuuuch easier for non-tax teams to swing uneven trades. For those teams, it is 150 percent (plus 100K) of the salaries being traded, or the 100 percent of the salaries being traded plus $5 million.”

[http://sheridanhoops.com/2011/11/28/two-new-trade-rules-in-the-new-cba/]

Considering Sund has not used any of his trade exceptions, why not sign Jamal for his asking price then use him to trade down for another player or use Jamal plus another Hawks contract player and upgrade the roster.

C’mon Sund, be creative or take an early retirement. Stop squandering our players. In this new CBA that favors trading amongst the smaller non-tax paying markets, there are no more excuses.

doc

November 29th, 2011
7:48 am

truthfully the best thing that we can get for marvin’s insurance money if his back isnt improved. that would clear cap and provide true capital, not make believe stuff of the amnestying sort. basg only knows real dollars and the new cba may keep them around for a while longer. i dont see them making any moves to spend real beyond what they already do.

O'Brien

November 29th, 2011
8:03 am

Melvin,

I would take a flyer on Brandon Roy if he is waived by the Blazers and willing to come off the bench. If healthy, he could give us 15-20 Jamal type minutes.

O'Brien

November 29th, 2011
8:04 am

I don’t know how Chris Broussard comes up with this. From espn.com, talking about CP3 and a SNT;

There has been chatter about Paul being moved to Oklahoma City for Russell Westbrook, but that’s unlikely because the chances of Paul signing long term with the Thunder are slim. Although he enjoyed playing there for two years early in his career, Paul knows Oklahoma City doesn’t compare to the bright lights of New York.

The Atlanta Hawks are another team that could offer New Orleans an enticing package of, say, Marvin Williams and Jeff Teague. It’s not known whether Paul would consider signing an extension with the Hawks but he is known to be fond of the city of Atlanta..

Two things stand out to me. 1) Chris Broussard thinks a package of Marvin and Teague is enticing (hilarious) and 2) The fact that it still gets mentioned that CP3 likes the city of Atlanta.

Thanks BK.

joBjo

November 29th, 2011
8:11 am

Teague sat all last year and rested. Rose played major minutes and carried his team all year.
a rested Teague had a good series against a worn out Rose. Not really a fair comparison, eh? That is Teagues claim to fame?
We’ll see how he does this year, maybe.

Geemack

November 29th, 2011
8:33 am

Teague can play. I’ve seen some improvement, because his jumper looks much better than it did last year.

Rev in Tampa

November 29th, 2011
8:34 am

joBjo,

I’m guessing that you are Larry Drew’s mama.

Realist

November 29th, 2011
8:34 am

“If the objective was to win a championship, we would not have made JJ the highest paid player.”

What would you have done? We had no cap space to sign anyone. We would be far worse without Joe

Big Dog

November 29th, 2011
8:48 am

Big Baby would be nice.

SteveW “where is Ken Strickland?” …. thats easy, some where getting his foot out his mouth!

Alan Iverson? Why don we bring back Sweet Lou and Pistol Pete?, We can call it Jurassic revisited. I dont think any one is slower than AI at this stage of his should have ended 2 years ago career. The dude is Slooooow. Bibby is faster. Please dont waste my money..

How many commercials does Josh have? My goodness this dude is marquee.

Al did show up in the playoffs… I mean he did pick up a check right?

SteveW

November 29th, 2011
8:52 am

Grandad – I guess I’m remembering that one game where McGee got like 7 dunks on us. We looked powerless to defend him with any option we had. He’s looked pretty good against us other times as well.

But I know what you mean – and I think Kito can be that guy on a limited basis. 10-15 mpg of high energy. I was concerned he was canned in Italy because he wasn’t as good as Othello Hunter however. The fans missed Othello.

SteveW

November 29th, 2011
8:54 am

If Iverson has anything left, as a 4th or 5th G option, I think he would be good for Teague to learn from. But if he came in expecting to start, or be a big part of the rotation, he could cause problems.

Buddy Grizzard

November 29th, 2011
9:00 am

Vava74 /agree on Reggie Evans or Chuck Hayes or Jeff Foster

“Chris Broussard thinks a package of Marvin and Teague is enticing (hilarious)” -O’Brien

Look at it this way… The Hornets know they can’t avoid losing Paul. And they know they are going to see a significant decline in their competitiveness as a result. But this team is owned by the NBA, which is trying to keep it in New Orleans. That means they’re not just going to tank it and try to build through draft picks. Teague and Marvin for CP3 is two starters for one. What are they going to get from NY? What are they going to get after this year when CP3 walks away as a UFA? The latter two options are far less enticing than Marvin and Teague.

joe white

November 29th, 2011
9:07 am

Lets just get some good players so we can win,and play some defense. Jc is gone too much money and he is only a scorer.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
9:14 am

http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/boston_celtics_danny_ainge_is_shopping_glen_davis_the_reasons/8381080?linksrc=foxrg_nba

As I said:

Big Baby thinks too highly of himself and will be a huge disappointment if someone signs him and does not keep him perfectly framed in a supporting/limited role.

chuckw/deadjournalist

November 29th, 2011
9:14 am

As they have for the last three or four years, the Hawks need leadership. Shane Battier would be a great fit taking Marvin’s minutes and role as a starter or first reserve off-the-bench. He, with Hinrich for a season, would do wonders from a on-the-court basketball IQ perspective.

I do think Marvin has value in trade. Obviously, his greatest worth would be in a package trade, but there is no worth in cutting him given the Hawks obvious reluctance to pay tax, as they’d still have to pay him plus anyone they could sign.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
9:15 am

And the Hawks are not the type of organization that would be able to keep Baby under control.

chuckw/deadjournalist

November 29th, 2011
9:18 am

re: CP3 rumor. if the hornets would do this deal, do it at 12:01AM on december 9. there could be some validity from these perspectives:

1 – the hornets are owned by the nba and need to sell. if CP3 isn’ t going to resign, he’s of no worth to the team/new ownership.
2 – teague’s value may never be higher because of the bulls series.
3 – marvin is still young and is still a starter.
4 – there would have to be at least one 1st involved going to the hornets

chuckw/deadjournalist

November 29th, 2011
9:22 am

by no worth for hornets/CP3, i mean there is no worth for them to hold on to him rather than trade him for assets, even if it isn’t max value.

O'Brien

November 29th, 2011
10:14 am

I would stay away from Big Baby. For his salary, he does not do enough of what the Hawks need. And without Pierce and KG to keep him motivated, I don’t know what to expect from him.

The Hawks are still a mentally fragile team (see the blowouts last year), and we don’t need another player who can be fragile.

The only reason I would sign Iverson, is to boost ticket sales. Does he have anything left? I don’t know, but I can easily see him getting into it with LD.

Buddy,

There will be better offers for CP3 than Marvin and Teague. Marvin is closer to being a bust than he is to being an All-star, and Teague is still unproven.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
10:24 am

Mark Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, etc are the type of players that’ll help this team…not a BIG Baby. Mentallly, physically, skills wise he’s just not the niche we need. We still need a good defensive big, a SG/SF who can slash and shoot the 3 for 1/3 of Jamal’s money and some talent that’s rising in our vet mins, not dude’s who are glad to come home or who hate it here and would rather blog all day. We need spirit and heart, hard work, players with fire…not babies.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
10:27 am

Same question in how many years in a row? What will Marvin honestly bring? I still can’t fathom someone we need so greatly can’t find the motivation to plug in and fill his role/niche on this team. I honestly think he has the skill set to make the difference…he just chooses not to since it’s Joe, Josh or Al’s team. Every player must realize it’s the HAWKS team, and lose this individual focus if we’re ever to gel and move past the 2nd round. The magic pieces aren’t coming…why not use what you have.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
10:30 am

MC – What staff changes are being made this year in terms of LD’s staff? Anything of note?

What free agents are we planning to drop and replace?

What players are honestly being marketed?

The Truth

November 29th, 2011
10:33 am

Hawksville
Stay away from clicking on any links on this site. The Vava74 Big Baby Davis is infected with a virus and that’s The Truth

vava74

November 29th, 2011
10:40 am

The Truth,

Say what? Are you serious or kidding? I honestly can’t tell!

Astro Joe

November 29th, 2011
10:50 am

Anyone who suggests using the amnesty on Marvin is either very short-sided or too much of a hater to be rational. In the next 4-5 years, Joe’s contract will be far more punitive to the Hawks salary cap than Marvin’s will ever be. So the Hawks need to maintain the option of using the amnesty on Joe when his production goes into major decline (I’m guessing after year 4 of his contract). The other option is to trade Joe to Portland for Roy and then amnesty Roy. But it is unlikely that Portland would make that trade.

No thanks to Iverson. If we keep Hinrich & Teague, we don’t need a guard who will sulk if he doesn’t get a bunch of FGAs and 24+ minutes/game. Give me Roger Mason (we need a deep threat) or even Marquis Daniel to fill the role. I’d like to see the Hawks try a more balanced approach to bench scoring next year. If we must go for the Vinnie Johnson option, bring back Flip… he’s very cheap (and doesn’t fall in love with his jumper).

Astro Joe

November 29th, 2011
10:56 am

One more thing, while the owners didn’t get unguaranteed contracts, they are able to waive players with less financial penalties. So if Marvin truly becomes such a waste that he needs to go quickly, they could waive him and spread his salary over 2X+1 the number of years left on his deal. So that would probably give them around $4M in cap relief. The Hawks won’t have significant cap space until Hinrich’s salary expires and/or Josh’s salary expires. Doing anything before one of those things happens really won’t free up enough cap space to make a significant improvement.

Of course, some teams trade members of their their core to improve.

Daniel

November 29th, 2011
11:23 am

Once again basketball is back and all we can talk about in Atlanta is who we can get to fill out the 12/13 spot on the roster. AI? really? Is this 2001? I love the Hawks but NOTHING will make us better until we get new ownership…
I hate to rain on everyones parade, but until we get a single owner with a REAL commitment to winning

kwooden

November 29th, 2011
11:27 am

I would take CP3 for Marvin and Jeff anytime of the day and as quickly as possible!! I really think the Hornets could do better though.

I hope the HAWKS are putting every combination of players they have to get Dwight. We know the Lakers are are offering Bynum, but not much else. We can offer any combination of JJ, Horford, Smoove and Marvin.

GO HAWKS!

The Revisionist

November 29th, 2011
11:27 am

FIRE RICK SUND!

Anyone with half a brain knew LAST SEASON that Jamal Crawford was going to bolt for greener pastures after the season. So for the life of me, why on earth would Rick Sund trade away JORDAN Crawford! You had your future sixth-man/ scoring machine sitting there on the bench for literal peanuts, and you throw him in a trade for an aging journeyman that will not even start this upcoming season.

FIRE RICK SUND!

STRETCH

November 29th, 2011
12:02 pm

Im with you Revisionist.

Sund knew last season that there would be a strong possibility that they wouldnt have the money for Crawford this year and he still let Jordan Crawford walk basically.

And every year, the Hawks face the same situation and it has not changed this season. When are they going to go after a legit center? The Hawks played tough against the Bulls, but they were NOT tough enough especially in the paint.

So, once again Atlanta, you are stuck with a team that plays well enough to get into the playoffs, but not good enough to make a real push.

PG – Teague is a young guy that needs a chance, might be the guy.
– Hinrich, too much money spent on him. Good guy, good player, but aging.

SG – JJ – Still waiting you on to recruit “Big Game” players Joe.
SF – MW – I dont even want to talk about him..next!
PF – JS – NBA Star, close to being a Superstar, but boneheadedness and in game temper tantrums coupled with low BB IQ holds him and team back.
C – AH – Undersized. (how many times have we said that?)

Bench – Needs scorers and brawlers.

Coach – New season at the helm. Might be better.

Management – Until they are removed, ATL will never win anything.

Astro Joe

November 29th, 2011
12:06 pm

STRETCH, waiting for Joe to recruit players who will get paid minimum dollars for the ASG? Is that a Joe problem or an ASG problem?

STRETCH

November 29th, 2011
12:14 pm

Just talking about Joe’s comments after signing that contract when he said “Im gonna recruit” players to come here.

heat check

November 29th, 2011
12:29 pm

100% agreed, Revisionist.

That trade made me want to put my head through a wall.

Sund: “We’ll desperately need cheap bench scoring (Jordan Crawford) and rebounding (Kenneth Faried) help within 9 months, but DAMN that Kirk Hinrich is a once-in-a-generation talent. Name your price, Washington! Go ahead and load up, anything you want. Fleece us, I insist! Deal. Suckers! Jordan Crawford’s gonna give you nuthin! We should know, he’s played 40 or so minutes over 18 games and simply hasn’t produced. That draft pick, like EVERY non-lottery pick, is useless! HA! 31yr old Kirk’s 12p/5a is just the championship piece we were missing and he will be our PG of the future (for 2 months or so), since that Jeff what’s-his-face is obviously worthless.”

Pretty sure that’s how it went down. Now we’re contemplating AI and Jeff Foster signings. Thanks, Rick and BASG and LD.

For the record, I’d be against the amnestificationizing of Marvin. That should be reserved for Joe someday.

cp

November 29th, 2011
12:30 pm

I would stay away from Big Baby. Dude doesn’t rebound and we need a big who rebounds. Foster and Reggie Evans are the two guys we should be looking at. Evans and Josh are good friends maybe Josh can convince him to come here. I had forgot all about Roger Mason but he would definitely be that shooter we need off the bench. I like Daniels but he seems to be a bit injury prone the past few seasons. He would come cheap so he could be a good option. I wouldn’t mind seeing Flip back if what we want is a scorer off the bench. The one thing Flip did that i loved was attack the rim. He wouldn’t settle for the jumper like so many on this team do. Teague attacks the rim but I have no idea what LD will do with Teague this year. I would take Flip over Iverson. When A.I. went back to the Sixers he looked like his tank was on empty. Maybe he has his personal life straightened out and is ready to play but it might be too risky. Like I said in another post, Rashard McCants would also be a cheap young option for scoring off the be bench.

J

November 29th, 2011
12:37 pm

I keep reading about the owners and how they aren’t for winning … i mean, i know people hate them for losing the Thrashers but didn’t we just make the playoffs 4 years in a row? I mean, come on, if you’re trying make business sense of this, they’ve built from the ground up (instead of going out and just buying a Championship team) and are approving on it. Yeah, i think we need one more great bench player & a better PG (hopefully Teague fills that spot), along with a better small forward but i have seen progress. If you want to harp on the negative, you can talk about how we didn’t make the playoffs for 10 years in a row prior to the 0708 season. Then again, i know we all are excited that the Hawks are relevant again but you have to give some credit where credit is due.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 29th, 2011
1:11 pm

Words!

“STRETCH

Just talking about Joe’s comments after signing that contract when he said “Im gonna recruit” players to come here” -Stretch-
_________________

Stretch, can you post the link where Mr. Johnson said this? I believe it was his agent who spoke those words.

Astro Joe

November 29th, 2011
1:27 pm

Mary, I agree, I;m fairly certain that was also his agent. And I recall that the statement was made around the same time that either the ASG or Sund said that they would use the MLE on “the right player”. Meanwhile, they have NEVER used their MLE and have ONLY signed “external” FAs to minimum deals since they signed Mo Evans 3 years ago. Said differently, the ONLY FA signed to more than a minimum deal in the Rick Sund era was Mo Evans and he signed for a whopping $2.5M per year. So any discussions about recruiting FAs needs to start with the ASG and their willingness to spend a little coin.

STRETCH

November 29th, 2011
1:36 pm

So it was his agent. I stand corrected. But one thing i do know is that Joe Jejejejeje Johnson aint worth the money!

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 29th, 2011
1:36 pm

A Real GM!

Astro Joe, Baby! Thank You Sir, I’m just tired of people who bump gums with false information all the time on here. We all make mistakes, but some people take it to a whole ‘nother level!

Besides, it is NOT Joe Johnson’s job to build this roster nor recruit anyone. All I want Joe to do is get better And make better decisions for his teammates, when playing games.

Aye Sund! Build your damned team & stop passing the buck.

Realist

November 29th, 2011
1:43 pm

“(Laughs). We have to go out and see what is out there. Honestly, I think we have the team now we can win with. That’s no question. The last two years we have averaged 50 wins. We all know it’s time to step up and take it to the next level. I think with the team we’ve got right now we can do that.”

Does Joe still think this team can win as is?

STRETCH

November 29th, 2011
1:51 pm

“Astro Joe, Baby! Thank You Sir, I’m just tired of people who bump gums with false information all the time on here. We all make mistakes, but some people take it to a whole ‘nother level!”

byramrd,

its also JJ’s job to step it up if he wants to be considered as an elite player. Something he has yet to do. So get off his j-strap and quit dangling from other peoples tassels. LOL!

Realist

November 29th, 2011
2:13 pm

Amen.

ASG has never used the MLE once

vava74

November 29th, 2011
2:44 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puBcHqdfm7c

I think this qualifies.

It’s not his fault that LD let Game 2 slip out of our hands with his idiotic rotation scheme.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
2:46 pm

And it was not JJ’s fault that our other All Star was in diapers during the whole CHI series and…

that Jamal also spent the rest of the series cr*pping his pants after game 1.

Without anyone aiding him, WTF do you want? When he had a massive game from another guy (Josh) HE held the fort in the 4th quarter (10 points) and we got the second win.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
2:47 pm

And at the same time we are talking about a guy who actually plays D.

Grandad

November 29th, 2011
2:48 pm

This post is mainly for * vava * … HOWEVER …

PLEASE:
Mary Ellen,Sautee,Big Ray,Rev,GrandJeJe,SteveW,O’B,
SuperB,WWClyde,Hatter,Sect303,AJ,Najeh,Nire,BFiAtl,
Marv’s Granny,Emir,doc,Ra’mon,Stretch,MC,heck,,,,, et al !
- – - – (it’s for all my buddies) – - – - !!
___________________________________________

vava

I hate to keep disagreeing with you,
but this minor tweak is a major point
that -magnifies- your -greater- message.
(I hope)

___________________________________________

Basketball is * NOT * (50 % offense & 50 %) defense per se

Basketball is 10 % on the ball, & 90 % away from the ball
broken down further;
.05 % the ball & 95 % other
continued;
95% man with ball = offense / okay
[most people only watch him]
next = .05 man guarding ball
occasionally = .05 man setting screen
[which brings 3 men into focus] = 15% watching the ball
* note – passer receiver is exception
** then sometimes only on replay.

My overall point !

And My Greater Point !
*** 80 % of the game of Basketball is played * OFF * the Ball !
[SteveW will back me up on this]
(it’s something one learns as a coach)
{}I’m not being condecending when I say that{}

That is why I preach -for- players such as Battier; (Rodman)
and am less enamored with players -like- Joe !
Joe sleeps away from the ball…..thats a fact !
Therefore the Hawks are paying the Highest salary to a player
who play 20 % of the game.
He plays well with the ball in his hands;
and defends well on the ball.
IRMC / G-dad !

vava74

November 29th, 2011
2:54 pm

Grandad,

JJ is not perfect and yes, he sometime sleeps on plays.

BUT he is a sound defensive player: very good on the ball and better than average off-the-ball.

He is a top 15 NBA player and the #3 SG in the league.

People only watch HALF of the game, which is not even off-the-ball, on-the-ball stuff: THEY SIMPLY DON’T WATCH DEFENSE, they just way for the next possession.

ONLY exception? Blocks and the occasional swipe in the passing lane: defense is MUCH MUCH more than blocks and there are many players who block shots BUT allow a bunch of points under their noses.

Smoove blocks shots, sometimes incredible plays – momentum changing plays – but his on-the-ball D is mostly weak and his close outs to shooters is horrible (poor rotations to cover outside players).

vava74

November 29th, 2011
2:56 pm

major typos. Main one: “they just wait for the next possession”

Grandad

November 29th, 2011
3:11 pm

G-dad’s Trade O’the Day

(perfect timing O’ B) with your earlier post !

*especially after I announced that I was gonna post this last eve*
____________________________________________

Going To New Orleans:
*Josh Smith
*Jeff Teague
*Zaza Pachulia

Coming to the ATL:
Mr Chris Paul himself !

____________________________________________

The Biggest Winner in this Trade !
Marvin Williams !

The Burden is lifted from Marv,
as having been drafted ahead of Paul,
and CP3 becomes Marvin’s savior of sorts
raising his game to:
double / double pts, rebs, he becomes a def stalwart,
& 6th man of the yr !
Atl has their SuperDuperStar !!
____________________________________________

Can or Does N.O. get a better offer than that !

Also it works on Trade Machine.
It should work on the new CBA.
Stern / NBA (ownership) would be foolish,
not to accept.
Chris Paul may / might just go for it ?

Win Win Baby !

Get out’a my way Sund.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
3:20 pm

Swap Josh for Al Horford on that trade and I would be up for it.

Josh played in the playoffs. Al… ummm where was he?

Realist

November 29th, 2011
3:28 pm

I have to agree with Vava here. Joe has no help on this team.

FreshFromATL

November 29th, 2011
3:41 pm

Rufus1

November 29th, 2011
4:05 pm

Trade Al for Nene… sign and trade? Al is younger and a strong rebounder, but Nene has better offensive game…

I would do it..I don’t think Nene is going to get more than 12mil a year.

bigcalidawg

November 29th, 2011
4:15 pm

The best thing about the nba returning is seeing Najeh Devenpoop once again. Funny, as it is an NFL reference, yet he post so much on the Hawks.

The nucleus is set. I figured that by letting Jordan go, that meant we would retain Jamaal. Not necessarily.

If we let that cat go, we need a physical big.

I like the kid that was bangin Kardashian. I like the kid Caracter (sp) from the Lakers. We need support for Zha Zha. We need an “Oakley Like” presence in the front court.

vava74

November 29th, 2011
4:19 pm

Realist,

Most people have been looking away and simply ignoring the fact that Horford has consistently folded under pressure.

Two years ago he could/should have done a lot more against Howard.

The harsh reality is that after he got that elbow to his mouth midway the 09-10 season and got decked without a foul being called against Howard he stopped trying to put his body against him.

He may be smaller, but we are not talking about a 6′0 guard against a 6′11” powerhouse. We are talking about a guy who is 6′9”/610” and only 20/25lbs lighter.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
4:24 pm

I have liked Nene at times, but if he is our key…giving up Al for him, why haven’t the Nuggets progressed any farther with their superstars? We dream of their assets and yet he didn’t help them get it done. We need a player committed to TEAM rebounding and defense. I wouldn’t give Al up for Nene IMHO

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
4:25 pm

I’d like to see a MLE used this season on anyone, just to say we actually did it for once ASG.

Folks, quit with the Iverson garbage. He’s a virus. Look at Memphis and his return trips to Philly. Dude’s done. We need rising talent…not fallen talent.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
4:29 pm

vava – Horford just isn’t the Boss anymore. He got the title, the cash and then got soft. I think he’ll rebound to old form someday, but dude doesn’t seem to have the tenacity of folks like the Charles Oakley reference. We need toughness, and it’s available cheap at times. Look at what Kurt Thomas did to Al? Dude just doesn’t have real toughness in his DNA.

brigadierjerry

November 29th, 2011
4:34 pm

D12 to Atl = Howard, Turkgolu for Horford, Hinrich, Pachulia, Williams, Draft Picks

D12 with JJ, Teague, Smith with the right pieces could become something

Also if you had the opportunity to get Chris Paul even if you have to give up Teague, would you do it?Also I think D Howard value’s is more than Chris Paul value for the Hawks since he is a big man

Rod from College Park

November 29th, 2011
4:41 pm

vava74,

“Most people have been looking away and simply ignoring the fact that Horford has consistently folded under pressure.”

Not me. This is where I agree with you. Behind Marvin, Horford is the biggest disappointment for me on this team. His numbers look good in the regular season, but he has not stepped up in the playoffs in the last two seasons. He has rebounded well, but thats about it. His defense is the playoffs has been worse than Jamal’s, and his offense is non-existent.

O'Brien

November 29th, 2011
4:41 pm

G’dad,

I’m ok with that trade.

Since David West is a free agent, and Josh Smith has 2 years left at a very reasonable salary, N.O. would like Josh (imo). And they could start Jarrett Jack at PG, and make Teague his backup.

However, I don’t know if they would want ZaZa. They are already paying Okafor $13+ mil per year, so I don’t know if they want to spend $4.5 mil on his backup. That’s almost $18 mil tied up in one position. Center.

I would trade JJ for CP3 straight up, but I don’t think the Hornets want any part of JJ’s contract.

vava,

I would trade Horford for CP3, but I am not giving up Horford AND ZaZa. How about Horford, Hinrich and Teague for CP3 and Jarrett Jack.

N.O. could play Al at PF, which is where he wants to be (or they could interchange him and Okafor). Hinrich could start at PG, and play backup minutes at SG while Teague backs up the PG position.

FreshFromATL

November 29th, 2011
5:00 pm

O’Brien,

Don’t you think that’s a bit much for CP3? I don’t see how trading Horford, Hinrich and Teague for CP3 helps us. Unless you’re guaranteeing that we will get D12 at some point or some other half-decent Center.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
5:20 pm

Air Zaza

November 29th, 2011
5:22 pm

Horford is much better with CP3 than without him. Both are PnR players and Horford needs an elite PG to take him to the next level.

Horford in the playoffs issue is the movement STOPS and the lack of PnR, PnP, and what not and Horford become useless on offense. If teams know how to shut down our player because of our personnel and lack of movement, of course he will struggle. Since Wade struggled v. Chicago does that mean Wade is worst than Bosh. Or James v. Dallas, is Bosh superior is James now?

Stop acting like clowns. Horford>>>Smith especially if we are landing CP3 and that’s easy as 2+2. Smith is a very good player but Horford is much better if the personnel fits which it doesn’t right now.

Air Zaza

November 29th, 2011
5:24 pm

Rod from College Park

November 29th, 2011
5:45 pm

Air Zaza,

“Stop acting like clowns. Horford>>>Smith especially if we are landing CP3 and that’s easy as 2+2. Smith is a very good player but Horford is much better if the personnel fits which it doesn’t right now.”

Based on what? Stats? Stats would say Josh is better. Josh is a better scorer, low post player, defensive player. Horford has a better mid range game, a slightly better rebounder, and has a better basketball IQ. Not sure where you get the Horford is a much better player from. Josh has a much bigger impact on the team positively and negatively than Horford does.

Michael Cunningham

November 29th, 2011
5:47 pm

@Fundamentals: “MC – What staff changes are being made this year in terms of LD’s staff? Anything of note?”

none that i know about. when i went to charity events over the summer it was the same coaches.

“What free agents are we planning to drop and replace?”

do you mean which of their free agents they won’t attempt to re-sign? Josh Powell and Hilton Armstrong are overseas with no opt-outs. i doubt there is interest in Etan Thomas. i think they will try to re-sign Jason Collins, Jamal Crawford, and Damien Wilkins.

“What players are honestly being marketed?”

do you mean shopped for a trade? i don’t know of anyone right now. a Hawks person swore to me there was nothing to the speculation about Josh Smith being shopped around the time of the draft. the person specifically denied there was anything to the Josh for Bogut story. other teams called the Hawks when they heard Josh was unhappy but this person says the Hawks weren’t trying to get rid of him. so, there are conflicting reports on that.

Jabba Fett

November 29th, 2011
5:54 pm

The Hawks still have the trade exception from the Josh Childress deal to add another player, either say a Caron Butler or Tayshaun Prince.

Air Zaza

November 29th, 2011
6:09 pm

Based on what? Stats? Stats would say Josh is better. Josh is a better scorer, low post player, defensive player. Horford has a better mid range game, a slightly better rebounder, and has a better basketball IQ. Not sure where you get the Horford is a much better player from. Josh has a much bigger impact on the team positively and negatively than Horford does.

@Rod
Stats say Horford is better. Stats say Smith has a lot of skills, moreso than Horford. Josh is a better scorer and defensive player. Both aren’t great in the low post. Smith has more moves but Horford is better around the basket.

Horford is one the best mid range shooters in the game. He is one of best rebounding PF/C along with Smith. He is a much better movement player like it matter with our current personnel but with CP3 would be night and day, and Horford is far more consistent than Smith who doesn’t have a clue on shot selection.

Horford is a PnR PF. He is based on movement, athletic finishing, screens, dives, PnR, PnP, and what not. That’s his offense. Like Reggie Miller was a movement based SG. He wasn’t someone that was going to create his shot using Iso.

Smith is an talented uptempo PF. He excels at full court, uptempo basketball where he doesn’t have to create his own shot or forced into movement and what not. He is the opposite of Horford. The best fit for Smith would be with Nash. Teague is also a solid fit for Smith but Teague can’t create for others so it will never be more than a solid fit. Horford and Teague don’t fit. Teague is terrible at movement. He uses screens and picks for his own offense. He only has good vision when he is slashing to the basket or running a fast break.

So where did I get Horford is much better than Smith? When I put CP3 into the equation. It’s that simple. Now you have the perfect fit for Horford. His touches goes up greatly and his quality touches will now actually exist. I can count on one hand the quality touches Horford has gotten from Bibby, Hinrich and Teague. He still never got a quality touch from Hinrich or Teague yet.

justahawkfan

November 29th, 2011
6:26 pm

“MAGNUM ROLLE” chicka bom chicka bom bommm

Rod from College Park

November 29th, 2011
6:45 pm

Air Zaza,

While I understand what you are trying to say, I still disagree. Josh Smith would be a much better player with a Chris Paul type point guard than he is now. He probaly would average 6 to 8 points a game just in ally oops alone if he played with Paul off of the pick and Roll, or on the break (See Tyson Chandler in New Orleans, and Kenyon Martin in NJ with Jason Kidd). No point guard with the pentrating ability of Chris Paul would be passing the ball to Josh standing behind the 3 point line. These things alone would help his game tremendously. Stats do not say Horford is better. Career stats for both show that Horford shoots a higher % from the field, from the free throw line, and is a better rebounder, but thats about it. Josh has also been considered one of the premier defensive players in the league for most of his career, and has intimidated and changed numerous shots in the paint. I saw Brandon Jennings attack the rim with Horford standing in the paint numerous times, and never be stopped in that Milw. playoff series. While we all on this blog like to nitpick and talk about our players weaknesses and faults, I don’t think there are many of us who will not agree that Josh Smith has been one of the better defensive players in the league since he has been a Hawk, except for a few haters.

Fundamentalss

November 29th, 2011
6:54 pm

Thanks MC

So we have 1 slot to fill if damien, twin, sy, benson & rolle filling slots.

The Monger

November 29th, 2011
6:55 pm

I have shouted from the mountains for years, that all we needed was a solid point guard and tough, big center to be among the elites. And we are almost there. We have finally found our pg, and teague thoroughly proved that in the Eastern Semis, not just hanging with derrick rose MVP, but even outplaying him at times. I think teague can honestly be a 15 pt., 10 assist, 2-3 steals type of guy, that can really lift this offense and accelerate an already fast offensive squad. Just imagine last year, except now add about 100 plays with teague leading the break, or penetrating the lane and dishing to Josh, Joe, and Al. Now we need a big, hard-nosed Center like Ben Wallace. If we can get Big Baby of DeAndre Jordan in Free Agency. East finals lock, and maybe more. That is all we are missing folks….ONE BIG BANGER!!!

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
6:55 pm

PRAY WE USE OUR MLE FOR THAT ONE SLOT.

Air Zaza

November 29th, 2011
7:06 pm

@Rod

Josh would be a much scorer since CP3 can create for players. The thing is CP3 uses PnR almost exclusively. Smith PnR usually have poor timing, bad movement, or a lack of movement after the pick. That are clear sign that Josh is not that good at PnR’s. He has Al Jefferson like movements using PnR. If CP3 main game PnR’s and Josh struggles with them, how could he be much better because of it. You mention Chandler and Martin but both of those guys are movement PF’s or C’s. That to a great extent but Smith is not them. Just because he is athletic and can catch oops doesn’t mean he’s a movement player.

As for Smith at the 3 point line, that will still happen but CP3 is less likely to pass him the ball since he can be ball dominate and get away with it unlike Joe who can’t. You can’t double team CP3 without paying for it.

No, stats say Horford is better. He has a better PER. His defensive numbers are high. His +/- is very high. His impact is very high. I don’t see where you are going with this one. Josh is not as good as Horford in terms of overall defense. But as we all know, what’s most important for a defender is how they protect the basket. Smith is an excellent help side defender and has elite shot blocking ability. He is likely only behind Howard in this regard. Smith is a horrible perimeter defender, he is probably as good as Jamal on the perimeter.

Horford is only an average help side defender. He is more known for his defensive verstility and the fact that he plays very good team defense.

I don’t disagree that Smith is one of the best defenders in the NBA as a PF but I he only gets slighty better with CP3 and actually hurts CP3 impact on a game to game basis. Horford gets a lot better and CP3 stays as impactful as he is today. If you have Reggie Miller on this team in place of Joe, he would seem like an above average player and worst than Joe. On Indiana, he became a HOF and someone who is known as one of the better players in the league.

Fit matters. Personnel matters. Ask Boozer. Ask Ronnie Brewer. Ask Tyson Chandler when he was in Charlotte.

EmirS.

November 29th, 2011
7:15 pm

I don’t believe Nene’s offensive game is that much better then Horfords. Regardless of how you guys look at Horford, he is one of our [THREE] All-Stars. If we would trade him, I’m pretty sure we can hook something more then *just* Nene.

However if we can package Horford to N.O. for CP3, I think we’d automatically become a contender *IF* we can get a bench.. Ofcourse that would mean losing Teague more then likely but hey…it’s been fun. We can resign Collins and have him and Zaza man the 5. Josh would finally get his PF position. Start Marvin at the 3. JJ and CP3 our guards. But again, I’m not sure how the bench would look like.

Here’s what I’ve been wanting since before the start of last season. I wouldn’t mind trading Horford or Josh for a set of bench players. A 1 for 3 in our favor. Can you imagine us 10 deep? I would rather try trading Horford for those pieces. Smith has to much defense. I believe with the emergence of Teague, he can take Horfords PPG. We would still have an efficent offensive game via Smith, JJ, and Teague. Those pieces we get they can be 2 defensive minded players and 1 hybrid. And seeing as though Jamal will more then likely sign with another team, those players we get will get minutes.

O'Brien

November 29th, 2011
7:23 pm

Air ZaZa,

The problem with your trade is we would be stuck with Okafor’s contract, JJ’s contract and we would have to give CP3 an extension. I don’t see the Hawks going into luxury tax, even if it’s for CP3.

Rod from College Park

November 29th, 2011
7:30 pm

“Josh would be a much scorer since CP3 can create for players. The thing is CP3 uses PnR almost exclusively. Smith PnR usually have poor timing, bad movement, or a lack of movement after the pick. That are clear sign that Josh is not that good at PnR’s. He has Al Jefferson like movements using PnR. If CP3 main game PnR’s and Josh struggles with them, how could he be much better because of it. You mention Chandler and Martin but both of those guys are movement PF’s or C’s. That to a great extent but Smith is not them. Just because he is athletic and can catch oops doesn’t mean he’s a movement player.”

All hypothetical thoughts, no facts. Any statement made that insinuates that Josh Smith has poor timing, and bad movement should not be taken seriously.

“No, stats say Horford is better. He has a better PER. His defensive numbers are high. His +/- is very high. His impact is very high. I don’t see where you are going with this one. Josh is not as good as Horford in terms of overall defense. But as we all know, what’s most important for a defender is how they protect the basket. Smith is an excellent help side defender and has elite shot blocking ability. He is likely only behind Howard in this regard. Smith is a horrible perimeter defender, he is probably as good as Jamal on the perimeter.”

No they don’t. PER is a made up stat by Hollinger. Means nothing. All of your other points are absurd. I’m sure all of those people that voted him second in defensive player of the year voting behind Dwight Howard, felt the same as you (LOL). I guess that is why last year in the playoffs, our coach put Josh Smith on Dwight Howard, and never put our center, Al Horford on him. (LOL)

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
7:35 pm

MC if someone like BRoy is amnestied what type of salary would he sign with new team? He’s making bank under current deal

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
8:22 pm

Rod from CP what up bro glad to see you back.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

Sautee

November 29th, 2011
8:28 pm

Rod,

To be fair, Josh’s second place in the DPOY was year BEFORE last. Last year Horford had more votes on the All-Defensive team than Josh did. Not by many, but more votes.

That said, there’s no doubt CP3 would improve ANY big man he plays with. Also, there’s no doubt that Horford can’t handle D12, but not many starting centers can. I wouldn’t throw him away based on that.

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
8:32 pm

I have heard the same thing about CP3 coming to atlanta and buy a home that’s how much he love the city, him playing for the Hawks haven’t been rumor as of yet. The Knicks along with Carmelo and Amar’e is his first choice.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
8:38 pm

If CP3 planned on moving to Atlanta why not play for the Hawks, o i forget ASG are the owner my bad.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
8:42 pm

CP3, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, DEADRE JORDAN
Would be the most exciting team in the NBA.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Astro Joe

November 29th, 2011
8:55 pm

Isn’t this the year the CP3 plays around 45 games? That seems to be his MO, every other year he misses a round 20+ games to injury.

Air Zaza

November 29th, 2011
8:57 pm

@ O’Brien

Okafor contract replaces Smith contract. CP3 contract replaces Zaza and Teague contract. We will have to go over the LT next year but not this year and even so we would make enough money to justify it.

@ EmirS

We are not contenders with Smith, Johnson, Okafor and CP3. We are extremely competitive but are pieces are only good fits, not perfect like Boston. We would need more to pass Miami especially if they land Samuel Dalembert. With Horford, Johnson, Okafor and CP3 we are contenders, perfect fits, To prime players in Horford and CP3, and Joe as the Pau Gasol type of guy. Josh Smith just can’t become that type of guy, too many holes in his game.

@ Rod

Nothing hypothetical about it my friend, watch the tape. Smith has the tendency to stand around whenever the ball is not in his hand majority of the time. Ask scouts. Ask MC. Ask Rathburn. Ask Hollinger. Just ask.

PER is a really good stat that a lot of NBA guys use. Hollinger created it but Bill Gates created Windows. So is Windows not real since IBM or the government didn’t create it? Sounds like you are capping for Smith to me. So now all of the information absurd. I am done with you. Take your biases elsewhere my friend.

I personally can separate my feelings for players, something you clearly can’t do. Your first point was Smith is good for CP3 because of alley oops. I knew right then you had the logic of an fire ant.

Horford is not a center. Something that everyone knows on here. Collins was the most effective on Howard. Howard has his way with Smith so that’s an very poor example. Powell was our most effective PF defending Howard. Smith and Horford was terrible guarding Dwight. Zaza was a fouling machine. Collins made Howard work and Thomas was just bad. Really bad. So your whole Smith being better than Horford is based from the playoffs when teams can easily take movement around from Atlanta due to the lack of a PG, a lot of iso basketball and forcing Horford to create his shot in the post where everyone knows is not his strong suit. Smh.

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
8:58 pm

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
9:00 pm

Agree with vava earlier who I think said we NEVER use MLE. Amen broths

REHIRE WEISS

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
9:00 pm

Brotha…

SIGN KONCAK

Dept. Of Unintended Irony

November 29th, 2011
9:10 pm

“I knew right then you had the logic of an fire ant. ”

I knew right then that you have all the descriptive powers of an anteater. SMFH indeed.

Fundamentals

November 29th, 2011
9:17 pm

Dont you mean John Contract? That deal still haunts me.

Bring back Tree!

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
9:48 pm

Najeh Davenpoop

November 29th, 2011
9:50 pm

“The best thing about the nba returning is seeing Najeh Devenpoop once again. Funny, as it is an NFL reference, yet he post so much on the Hawks.”

Thanks man.

Najeh Davenpoop

November 29th, 2011
9:58 pm

“So where did I get Horford is much better than Smith? When I put CP3 into the equation. It’s that simple. Now you have the perfect fit for Horford. His touches goes up greatly and his quality touches will now actually exist. I can count on one hand the quality touches Horford has gotten from Bibby, Hinrich and Teague. He still never got a quality touch from Hinrich or Teague yet.”

All of this applies to Smoove too. Both Smoove and Al have incomplete offensive games which would be hugely helped by any competent point guard running the offense rather than Joe. No offense to Joe, but his style of play is not conducive to creating quality shots for others, which is one of several reasons why his role in the offense should be deemphasized.

I still don’t think either Smoove or Al has to be traded necessarily. I think we will all find out a lot more about the players on this team when Teague gets to run the show, after which it will become easier to accurately determine trade value.

Melvin

November 29th, 2011
10:09 pm

The training camp story that I’m mostly interested in is who will LD name as team captain(s). I don’t want multiple captains again…

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
10:10 pm

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
10:30 pm

Damien is the most underrated and underutilized player on the team (if Teague is starting). The guy can play. I wanted him on these team right after he dropped 40 on us on that November 2007 night. I hope he gets regular minutes and that LD LETS DAMIEN SHUT DOWN LBJ AND OTHER STARS LIKE HE CAN DO INSTEAD OF ROTTING ON THE BENCH

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
10:33 pm

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
10:38 pm

STARTER CP3, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, DEANDRE
BENCH HINRICH, PAPE, DAMIEN, WILCOX, COLLINS
RESERVE BENSON, TJ FORD
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
10:40 pm

There is no point amnestying anyone.

That would be idiotic. ASG already has low cash flow. Why would they pay someone NOT to show up?

The team is still young. Will anyone drastically improve and overachieve (probably not)? Try swing Smoove for Al Jefferson or Paul Millsap IMHO.

Offer Smoove and Teague in a CP3 package. We have trading pieces.

One team that is f’ing set for YEARS is the Lakers. They are LOADED with cash (new TV deal) and a bajillion trading pieces. Ughhhhhh

darrell starks

November 29th, 2011
10:52 pm

The Hawks might have to put the tag on Hinrich 8mill to clear more cap space, TJ FORD is just as good Hinrich.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

Melvin

November 29th, 2011
11:23 pm

I think one area of concern for the Hawks is outside shooting. If we lose Jamal, then Joe and Hinrich are our only reliable shooters. I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks bring in someone like Michael Redd. He’s coming off a knee injury so his price tag may not be too high. Also, Troy Murphy would be one of the bigs I consider. Great rebounder and outside shooter.

Rev in Tampa

November 29th, 2011
11:28 pm

Has anybody heard if LD is going to try and re-institute the ‘motion offense’? Has he publicly declaimed the ‘two-foul rule’? And, most importantly, has he bought a new suit during the off-season?

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 29th, 2011
11:34 pm

No Spine!

TJ Ford has a diagnosis of: congenital spinal stenosis. Stay away from him, unless he is a bench piece for little or nothing in return.

To the jack-ass, I ain’t never hung on no one’s jock strap! I am highly opinionated & I fight dirty. Surely, I am not the orator of the obvious to ad nauseum. I make my points and walk away.

The debates are all awesome today – all of them. I wouldn’t mind having Big Baby on this roster for the right price and in the right role. We need another big body that can lay some wood.

Najeh, Grand-Daddy, vava74, Greandmaster JeJe, do any of you guys see a role for Big-Baby on this team?

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 29th, 2011
11:43 pm

Shrek & Donkey!

Would anyone like to see a little of Nate Robinson & Big Baby coming off the Hawks Bench over what we have seen the past four years in the post season.

Here’s my point: a talent infusion on our bench would do wonders to spell the starters. If we could assemble the best bench in the NBA? Could be become Elite?

I just don’t see Dwight coming here, iF we have to gut our roster – he may as well stay in Orlando, (where they spend freely). LeBron had way more help in Ohio than Joe Johnson ever did. They won 61 games and still got swept in rounds 2 and 3. That’s where a Real GM get’s his shine, (you still got to find the right pieces). See Boston.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
11:44 pm

No to Big Baby. No numbers, seems like trouble. Seems like a homeless man’s Ndamukong Suh.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 29th, 2011
11:45 pm

Everyone is going to LA

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 29th, 2011
11:54 pm

* Could WE become elite?

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
12:00 am

LMAO!

Grandmaster JeJe says, “No to Shrek!” LOL! Too much slobbering for you? (rof lol & ktc) “kicking the couch”

Hey GMJ! What about ‘donkey’?

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
12:15 am

Two:
Brig-Jerry & BuddyG
** Sorry Guys **
I can’t believe I left you off my little list today.
same goes for;
R.f C.P., Fundamentals, & on & on & on … ad infinitum…………….

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
12:40 am

vava is the biggest co-conspiritor;
but, those of you who have lost confidence in Al
are looking at a different game than myself;
as well as numerous other au courant basketball
pundits as well as coaches.
Yawl make no sense !

Yawl call the man soft, manufacture quotes, etc,
but you cannot come with anything tangible to cite
other than spew out some esoteric nonsense which
makes me wish to *paraphrase Spiro Agnew:
“being encouraged by an effete corps of impudent
fans who characterize themselves as sagacious”.

Grandmaster JeJe

November 30th, 2011
12:54 am

Horf is thin and soft. Got outplayed by Booze. Horford needs a center next to him.

zachdahater

November 30th, 2011
12:57 am

WE NEED to go after Andre Iguodala or some other good SF, AND a CENTER, and we’re competing for a title baby!! Well, if Jamal’s leaving we REALLY need a backup SG. But, we could use Damien Wilkins for that.

Teague/Hinrich
Joe/Wilkins
Iguodala/Marvin
Smith/Horford/Rolle/Benson
Collins/NEW CENTER/Horford

I don’t know. Basically if we get Iguodala and a new center, this team would be amazing! I’m still hopeful about Marvin. I done forgot how bad he’s been on a count of dis here lockout!! But Marvin is a big body, and athletic, and gets important rebounds for us. With Jamal gone, perhaps he will shine again. Just need him to hit open shots. You don’t have to create Marvin, just hit your open shots, defend, and rebound!

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
12:58 am

Mary Ellen

All the while – thinking Glenn Davis would help -
I keep coming back to this thought:
If he is this young and were he of value ?
Why would Doc push him out the door ?
____________________________________________

He’s 6-7.75 = 6-9 with shoes, between 290 & 300 lbs.
He’s not a ripped up 295 either. (more butterball turkey)
***red flag*** shoots less than 50% from floor for career !
—–UNACCEPTABLE—– + Not A Shot Blocker !
Avgs only 7 rebs per 36 min for career (4 yrs)
_____________________________________________

Personally, I wouldn’t touch him.

Marv plays better defense, is more versatle, and shoots much better
putting up better numbers in his career, while having more exp.

_____________________________________________

We need -Shane Battier- !!

More than just his ability.
His Leadership would be invaluable !!

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:12 am

Cutie Pie!

“byramrd,

its also JJ’s job to step it up if he wants to be considered as an elite player. Something he has yet to do. So get off his j-strap and quit dangling from other peoples tassels. LOL!” -stretch-
_______________

You Sir, are a dyslexic jack ass! Make your point and move on, there is no need to “s-t-r-e-t-c-h” the truth and try to be cute. You want a fight with drmaryb? – Bring it on. You won’t win & it will get ugly. I’m in the mood for a good suare’, haven’t had a good jostle in quite a while.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:24 am

Perspective!

Grand-Daddy, wassup baby! Thanks for the response to my query re: Big Baby. I didn’t know of his poor numbers, I just remember that incredible play off game, where Coach Doc put in the entire bench and we saw “The Shrek & Donkey” show. LOL!

That was something to see. Made me wish we had a bench worth mentioning. Our Dollar Tree “bargin-bin” bench has played out for me! The Hawks GM just needs to step up his game.

I heard the ASKG pulled out of The Meruelo deal? Why would they do that? I will never get over the sale noT going down. I’m still reeling & hard from the ASKG still owning this team. I do not trust these people to make the right decisions for the franchise – whatsoever. Period. I’m just sick about it & can’t get excited about my Hawks just yet.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
1:36 am

Minor Tweaks:

[1] Teaguer … Capt Kirk
[2] Joe …Capt Kirk … Othyus Jeffers
[3] Battier … Julien Wright … Damien Wilkins (Josh)
[4] Josh … Troy Murphy … Benson (Al)
[5] Al … Jeff Foster … Ajinca
____________________________________________

This model is predicated on :
*using amnesty on Marv
*trading Zaza
*Jeffers & Wilkins cheap pick-ups
*Battier = Primary acquisition
*Murphy & Foster = secondary acquisitions
*Ajinca = project Center / should come fairly cheap !!
** A.Ajinca = no bigger risk than Benson + greater upside !!
____________________________________________

Othyus Jeffers would soon become a fan favorite.
Hustle and defense + some rebounding / def stopper

Julian Wright another defensive acquisition @ small forward
would come cheap – I would think.

Troy Murphy terrific Shooter & Rebounder.
one year removed from being one of the best in league.
Still fairly young – (give him a physical 1st)

____________________________________________

* If yawl noticed all the guys I added to the core.
(played defense & rebounded)

note:
I probably would take Reggie Evans over [Murphy or Foster]
if we had the $ $ $ . [ any two of those three]

_____________________________________________

This is the ASG cheap way out, keep the core together model;
that could actually be pretty good.

Not my 1st choice !! of the way to go !!

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
1:38 am

That was for you my dear.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
1:40 am

ahem……….clarifying……..my dear = Mary Ellen !!

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:51 am

Agent Speak!
___________

Even though I don’t think he’s a true superstar that can make the Knicks elite, I’m glad he’s off the market and won’t be joining Amare there.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5354426

Free agent Joe Johnson is staying with the Atlanta Hawks, his agent said in a blog published on the Huffington Post website on Sunday.

Arn Tellem, Johnson’s agent, said that Johnson was impressed with the team’s commitment to him and agreed to accept the club’s six-year contract offer. He confirmed the post to The Associated Press.

Atlanta offered Johnson, a four-time All-Star, approximately $119 million over six years — nearly $27 million more than any other team could offer.

The Hawks would not comment, citing the NBA’s moratorium on signings. Deals can’t become official until Thursday.

“When the free agency period kicked in, Joe made a point of talking to the Hawks first,” Tellem wrote in the blog post. “Their owners and new coach, Larry Drew, impressed Joe with their commitment to making the team championship-caliber. In turn, Joe felt equally committed to the Hawks, his teammates and the city of Atlanta.”

Tellem said Johnson, who was wooed by a number of other teams, could have forced a sign-and-trade to another team, but “decided that winning in Atlanta would be more meaningful.”

The New York Knicks were the first team to meet with Johnson when he became a free agent at 12:01 a.m. ET Thursday, making it known that he was among the players atop their wish list. The Chicago Bulls contacted Johnson as well, but did not meet with him.

But Johnson did not agree to the Hawks’ offer immediately, and as of Friday, sources said Johnson was still considering offers from the Knicks and Bulls.

Teams were wooing Johnson with the hope that he could be the first domino in luring one of the top-tier free agents in LeBron James or Dwyane Wade. The Knicks made Johnson their first priority with the hope that if they didn’t land James, he could reunite in New York with former Phoenix Suns coach Mike D’Antoni and ex-Suns teammate Amare Stoudemire.

“For his next act, Joe plans to actively recruit other top free agents to Atlanta, a place not unlike his hometown, where he feels comfortable and appreciated,” Tellem wrote. “LeBron, you’ve already met with the front offices of six teams. How about considering the Hawks?”

Johnson has been at the center of the Hawks’ resurgence since arriving in Atlanta from Phoenix in a sign-and-trade deal on Aug. 19, 2005. A 13-win team the season before he arrived, the Hawks doubled that the next season and went 53-29 in 2009-10 before getting swept by Orlando in the Eastern Conference semifinals.

Johnson averaged 21.3 points during the regular season but played poorly during that series, creating speculation he may have cost himself max dollars. And there was thought he may want out of Atlanta, anyway, since he turned down a $60 million extension last summer and was critical of the team’s fans this season.

Information from ESPN.com senior NBA writer Chris Sheridan and The Associated Press was used in this report. _________________

Again, Joe’s agent: Arn Tellem – no doubt “giddy” about his cut of that 119M contract, made the comment re: Joe recruiting other high caliber players to play in Atlanta – is just that. To date, I never heard Joe say that.

Besides, Arn Tellem was referring to Joe recruiting an available super star of LeBron’s ilk & not the likes of Etan Thomas or Josh Powell. That ship sailed in the last FA signing period, so let’s keep those comments in the context of:

Time
Space
Reality
Super Star Availability

Having said that, CP3 & Dwight are the next two available super stars coming up this next FA period. I don’t know IF Russell Westbrook in Oklahoma is really available – isn’t he still under contract there? Perhaps, we can still get CP3 or Dwight – IF Gearon, Jr was being truthful when he said, “We would go into the luxury tax for the right player, (when Stern fined him for mentioning LeBron) last season.”
_________________

Say what you want, but drmaryb is gonna’ always keep it real, when it comes to putting words in other people mouths.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
1:51 am

Mary Ellen – another Alex Meruelo will come along.

ASG does not want the team.

Something rotten in Denmark.
I read where Stern had ASG in his hip pocket
and needed their vote to hold his coalition together,
during the lockout.
Meruelo may have scared Stern;
may have thought him to be a renegade ?
-never know-

Stern might wish to bail out ASG
& keep them in his pocket for awhile ?
For what reasons – who knows ?

Conspiracy theories;
that’s your cup o’ tea.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
2:18 am

Mary Ellen

In the absence of substance;
do you want a couple of faux superstars,
or, would you wish for a whole team of:
committed, team oriented, defensive minded,
skint kneed, hard working, mean spirited,
in your face, rebound eatin’, winners ?

Plausibly, the aforementioned nine qualities,
seemingly exhibit the very substance,
absent in artificial superstars.

I must go to sleep.
I’m getting way too philosophical for an ol’ country boy.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
3:00 am

Horford’s softness and disappearing act in the playoffs would not change with CP3.

CP3 can be many things but he can’t give an extra pair to soft teammates.

Most of Smoove’s bad shots WOULD disappear with CP3.

Having said that, Horford is BY FAR our best trading chip and at the same time the guy who would be more easily replaced.

The fact that Horford was AWOL and his mid range game disappeared in the playoffs should be crystal clear for everyone.

During the regular season people were still surprised with the fact that his range was so solid, but once the playoffs started, they simply took away that by having the defense stretch a bit closer to him and pufff… his midrange shot was no where to be found.

Horford WAS valuable when he was all hard work down low and got his 11ppg 10rbp fighting as BOSS AL.

That guy is gone. Was already fading during the 09-10 season (mainly after the elbow to his mouth from Howard), was almost good as gone in the MIL series (Kurt the mummy Thomas punked him severely) and was completely gone during the ORL series (4-0, record breaking loss, with Horford completely transformed into “Highway Al”).

Sure, he is a versatile defender for his size, but his defense now is mostly in the perimeter when he switches.

Horford is little more than a slow SF or a stretch PF which picks up a lot of rebounds by default.

You don’t win playoff games with guys like that. You simply don’t.

On a different note:

“TJ FORD is just as good Hinrich.” YOU ARE KIDDING… RIGHT?

vava74

November 30th, 2011
3:13 am

Grandad,

“committed, team oriented, defensive minded,
skint kneed, hard working, mean spirited,
in your face, rebound eatin’, winners?”

Let’s see how Horford qualifies:

Comitted? Only if he is not facing physical guys, so I would say: NO
Team Oriented? Yes, but his lack of balls makes it a shaky yes.
Defensive Minded? Only if he not facing physical guys, so I would say: NO
Skint kneed? Not sure what you mean.
Hard working? Yes, but his lack of balls makes it a shaky yes.
Mean spirited? Definitively NO.
In your face? Definitively NO.
Rebound eatin’? Only if he is not facing physical players, so NO.
Winner? Maybe in the days in which he played with a guy with real spunk along side him (Noah). So, NOT REALLY

Winners don’t disappear in the playoffs like Al did when we were really in a dog fight for a series win.

I don’t like but can understand that in a series which has gone out of control and our HC is completely lost (like the ORL 4-0 series) that players lose their spunk, but last year? Being 1-0 up away in CHI? How can Horford justify being outplayed and completely out hustled by:

Boozer (with turf toe);
Gibson (who?)
Azik (who??????)

Noah I understand as being difficult to match from an effort level, but HE KNOWS the guy so he should certainly know how to poke and jab at him to make him lose focus. Which names to call him, where to put his elbows, when to step on his feet.

Horford DID NOTHING. He is a damn “accountant” playing a blue collar position.

EmirS.

November 30th, 2011
3:20 am

@zachdahater

Getting Iguodala while keeping the core is impossible. Also the Sixers would want something good in return. You’d have to lose Smith, Horford, or JJ.

@Grandad

“Conspiracy theories;
that’s your cup o’ tea.”

I love it. Love NBA rumors and conspiracies. No sugar please.

Buddy G

November 30th, 2011
4:03 am

“Shane Battier would be a great fit taking Marvin’s minutes and role as a starter or first reserve off-the-bench.” – chuckw

/cosign. I was thinking this myself… If Shane wanted to show what kind of impact he can make from a character standpoint, he could step right into the Hawks’ massive leadership void. If you remember Hinrich throwing his hands in the air after Joe waved him away for a clear-out, I think you can see that Kirk is not the guy who is going to impose his personality on this team. But because Battier is so well-respected throughout the league, he could step on the Hawks roster and single-handedly change the team’s culture. Scoring Shane Battier would be the feather in Rick Sund’s cap.

PS… I had this written in WordPad before G-Dad beat me to the punch ;)

“There will be better offers for CP3 than Marvin and Teague.” – O’Brien

That remains to be seen. What the Hawks should be focusing on is working Marvin back into the rotation so that his trade value can rebound from its current all time low. Teague has high trade value now and could hurt himself with a slow start. But if Marvin, as I’ve predicted over and over in the absense of JC1, returns to his 15ppg form, that will give us tradeable assets in Teague, Kirk and Marvin to go after CP3 or another star.

“The other option is to trade Joe to Portland for Roy and then amnesty Roy.” – Astro Joe

Teams can only Amnesty a player under contract to that team at the time the new CBA is ratified. You can’t trade for another team’s player then Amnesty them. But the Amnesty clause can be used any offseason over the life of the CBA. Joe Johnson is under contract to the Hawks now, therefore during any offseason unti the current deal expires we can use the Amnesty Clause on Joe. This is why people are suggesting that we wait until Joe’s production falls off before we Amnesty him and not waste it on Marvin who could be traded.

Buddy G

November 30th, 2011
4:10 am

“Going To New Orleans: – Josh Smith” – G-Dad

I’m afraid I don’t see New Orleans doing this trade and putting themselves right back in the same situation with a star they can’t re-sign. Only way this works is as an extend-and-trade where Josh agrees to an extension before the trade is executed.

“Swap Josh for Al Horford on that trade and I would be up for it.” – Vava74

I think NO is more likely to go for this as Horford is already signed to a below-market-value multi-year extension. That would leave us with major holes on our front line, however.

“MC if someone like BRoy is amnestied what type of salary would he sign with new team? He’s making bank under current deal” – Grandmaster JeJe

Any player that is Amnestied can be bid on by teams under the salary cap using their cap room. Thus, the team with the most cap room can bid the highest. The winning bidder must pay what they bid and have it count against their salary cap, and the team that Amnestied the player has that amount deducted from their obligation to the player. So for example, Brandon Roy is scheduled to make about $15m this season. If Portland Amnesties him, Indiana might bid $5m per season for him. If the Pacers won the bid, Portland would only have to pay Roy $10m for this season instead of $15m. I’m not clear on if the bidding team must take the Amnestied player on for the number of seasons remaining on their Amnestied contract.

Buddy G

November 30th, 2011
4:13 am

“Horford is not a center. Something that everyone knows on here.” – Air Zaza

Wrong. Al Horford is the third-best center alive on the planet:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7116977/nba-player-rankings

In the age of Ewing, Hakeem and David Robinson, he wouldn’t have been. In the age of Dwight and almost nobody else, he is.

“Damien is the most underrated and underutilized player on the team” – Grandmaster JeJe

/cosign

“Those of you who have lost confidence in Al are looking at a different game than myself” – G-Dad

I haven’t lost confidence in Al, but I’m afraid he has lost some confidence in himself due to Larry Drew’s coaching. By sitting him for a half when he gets one foul, Drew has made it so that Al is afraid to play aggressively on defense. His post moves are raw and he gets shut down in the post by lesser players, but his mid range jumper is elite. So I think he over-relies on the latter when he should be developing the former. When he has a go-to post move he will be unstoppable, due to the ability to play inside-out. And don’t worry G-Dad I won’t let you forget about me :P

vava74

November 30th, 2011
4:34 am

Buddy G,

Horford’s disappearing act precedes LD by a mile: his first major step towards softness was when he was decked by Howard (elbow to the mouth) during the 09-10 regular season.

That was the point when Al mentally checked out from being a post player/defender and started whining about needing help and not being a C.

On the following months, Al went on to be completely punked by a mummy (Kurt Thomas) in the MIL series and simply getting as quickly and as further away from Howard during the ORL series.

Last year, he simply added to his “I’m out of the low post mettle act” an improved range on his jumper.

As for that mid range jumper: it will only be elite IF (big one here) IF he can sustain that this year (with scouting telling everyone to close him out quicker) AND IF (huge one) IF he can hit them during the post season (which is something he proved that he could not last year).

Right now, Horford is a stretch PF on offense and on D an ultra soft post defender.

Nice overall numbers don’t hide a fact: Horford has the tools to play like he did on that monster regular season game against CHI… BUT LACKS THE “HUEVOS” TO DO IT.

For me Horford is TRADE BAIT and one thing I can tell you, he is one of the most overvalued players in the league.

Yes, he is good, BUT he is only a #4 or #5 in a good team, NOT #2, so his contract is not even a good one.

NOAH yes, is correctly priced, HORFORD, no.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
4:37 am

man… I missed this soooooo much :-D

It’s great to be back jabbin’ left and right!!

brigadierjerry

November 30th, 2011
5:20 am

Grandad,

I agree on not wanting big baby davis. Underzied, always have to worry about his weight reminds me of Doug Edwards, remember him or even Oliver Miller Tractor Traylor. I think he plays well with a strong personality and that wouldnt work in Atlanta. Grandad Battier would be a good fit just dont know if the Hawks can afford him. Lot of rumors going around Rondo being offerred for Chris Paul, Nets trying to get Dwight Howard giving up Brook Lopez and even taking back Hedu. Will be an interesting couple of weeks.

Buddy Grizzard

November 30th, 2011
5:27 am

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3213/al-horford

Come on dude. Their salaries are identical. Horford gets 4 more ppg, 1 fewer rebound and 1 more assist per game than Noah. Noah gets .5 more blocks per game than Al. Al is third-team All-NBA and a two-time All-Star. But you think Noah has the better value contract?

I don’t disagree with you that Al is overvalued or that he’s a tremendous trade chip. But unless you’re getting Marc Gasol, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard or Nene back, how do you replace this guy?

vava74

November 30th, 2011
5:57 am

Buddy,

Noah brings hustle and intensity down low.

Stats don’t mean jacksh*t when you disappear in the playoffs like Al did and when you don’t play in the post (both ends of the floor) at the C and PF positions.

Noah may have shortcomings, but you can count on him to go all out down low and leave his skin in the battle field.

Al… well, Al used to do that but now he says that he is not a C, wants to keep expanding his range, …

By they way he is “evolving” he will be little more than a Ryan Anderson in no time.

Just Joe

November 30th, 2011
6:26 am

Al and Josh are not the problem. They are young, talented, and have reasonable contracts. Both need to improve certain parts of their games, but we’re talking shot selection, attitude, toughness, and hustle along with continuing to work on their post moves.

O'Brien

November 30th, 2011
7:24 am

This morning on 790 the zone, they talked about how every Tuesday (which is their off day), every Falcon player is required to do some kind of community service/activity, but yet the Hawks can’t find a way to get their players entrenched in the community.

And then they killed JJ. They said for a guy making max money, he should have more responsibility off the court (doing media interviews, more activities in the local community etc) but one of the things Hawks PR told them is that JJ can’t do morning shows because he is not a morning person, and he doesn’t wake up early.

They did give Horford credit for his community involvement, and they gave Marvin Williams credit for not being afraid to comment on being taken before CP3, unlike JJ who never says anything (even after his max contract).

Big Dog

November 30th, 2011
7:40 am

You guys got to be kidding. The only one who think Al is a great center is the press. The fans arent fooled. Not only is the guy a no show in the playoffs but career wise his numbers are about average.Defensively? Make me laugh. Opposing coaches scheme to get this guy under the basket in a 1 on1 situation. He cant defend the basket at all. In fact he doesn’t want to and has begged to get out of the 5 spot. He doesn’t have the heart of a center and therefore will never be a good one. Heartless Al the non defender is how I see him.

Big Baby can definitely help the hawks. I’m not saying hes Horford’s replacement, no, not at all. but he is a fierce defender and will fight you if you try to get to the rim, something Al wont do. Having said that Id love to pair Josh and Howard at the rack. How do you spell C H A M P I O N S H I P.?
That pair would force opponents to become a jump shooting tell and make it easy to defend the perimeter.

The bottom line is that the hawks like they are today, will be a middle of the pack team… again, and fade in the playoffs. Predictably.

Big baby can help solidify. If he and Zaza split time in the paint at least they will fight you going to the rack. A sign and trade of Big Baby plus All NBA Al for Howard would be the ticket to get the hawks back in serious contention.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
8:09 am

Woody Ball!

Say what you will, but Mr. Woodson had Josh and Al’s butt glued to the paint, playing BIG and banging. Ask TJ Ford if Al laid some wood on him when he flew into the paint in Toronto. It was Al’s rookie season, he was suspended a few games, called a dirty player and hasn’t hit anyone under the rim since.

Even if Woodson had to go, Larry Drew was not the right replacement. Al and Josh have digressed tremendously under Drew.
____________________

The Hawk shouldn’t be amnestying anyone right now. Just because a chinese buffet is serving TOFU – it doesn’t mean you have to eat it.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
9:31 am

Stern Rule!

David Stern is a mind numbing azz. Stern has singel handedly ruined the Hawks franchise by approving the ASKG purchase while D. McDavid held the exclusive negotiating rights. Stern should fine himself for stupidity! This guy really believes he is “The Commish” in some hollywood movie script – as opposed to just being a commissioner of the NBA. What a jerk, he is the equivalent of a “crying Boehner” (the (R) Speaker of The House in Congress).

vava74

November 30th, 2011
9:54 am

I don’t recall who, but someone brought up PER to justify Horford as being better than Smoove.

PER is a GARBAGE stat and completely worthless.

Just look at the free agent list (ordered by PER):

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2011/11/30/2596698/2011-nba-free-agent-scoreboard-is-back#storyjump

Look at the powerhouse players high on that list…

vava74

November 30th, 2011
10:00 am

And look at, for instance, Collins (at the near bottom of the list) and compare him with what other bigs better placed actually produce for instance against Howard.

Rod from College Park

November 30th, 2011
10:22 am

vava74,

“I don’t recall who, but someone brought up PER to justify Horford as being better than Smoove.

PER is a GARBAGE stat and completely worthless.”

I totally agree. It is a made up stat. Means nothing. It was Air Zaza who used it to try to justify his point.

Air Zaza

November 30th, 2011
10:23 am

vava keeps saying Horford was a disappearing act. But every time he was extremely aggressive in the post v. Chicago he was called for an offensive foul. Could it be that the Bulls are extremely good on defense and forces players into bad positions.

Vava makes no sense. Most of Smith bad shots would end. How do you figure that. When J.R. Smith was with CP3, he still took bad shot time and time again. You really think CP3 will excel with Smith on offense?

Clearly you do since you think Horford is a much worst player than he actually is. This java guy is doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He even said Horford is a soft defender. Where do they get this guy from? It’s clear as day you have a hatred for Horford. I am not even sure to take your comments serious since your are as knowledgable as a doorknob.

Horford didn’t disappear v. Chicago because he wanted to. They forced Atlanta movement to end. Teague is a terrible half court player in terms of creating for others and him and Horford has poor communication. That basically force most of Horford shots to be back to the backet or high contested and the Bulls D in the low post gives everyone fits if the PG can’t create for others.

I guess the Heat should trade Lebron too after Dallas. smh, please quit taken L’s. Your lack of basketball knowledge offends me.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
10:39 am

Air Zaza,

What a load of bull…

What about the ORL series? Horford, who got his wish to be far far far away from any contact with Howard was erased by Bass (who is 6′7”) and by Ryan Anderson.

Also, what about the p*ss poor effort that Horford gave on D against CHI and in particular against a guy with a turf toe injury? Was that Teague’s fault too?

To blame Horford’s disappearing act on Teague is a cowardly act by someone with NO ARGUMENTS to sustain his view.

Stuart

November 30th, 2011
10:43 am

I just saw on ESPN that Atlanta is one of the few teams (reportedly) that Chris Paul would accept a trade to and sign a long term deal with. Any chance the Hawks would try to trade for CP3? If so, who would they likely deal?

ILL-Logical

November 30th, 2011
10:46 am

vava74

November 30th, 2011
10:56 am

Stuart:

Horford, Teague, Zaza, Marvin and a 1st round.

Let NO pick and choose what they want (could be all of them for me with the following caveat – I would hate to lose Teague since I really think he has the “IT” factor).

Mike

November 30th, 2011
10:57 am

But the question is would ASG would do a trade for Chris Paul. Right now, I think that he can bring more people back into the seats in Phillips (more money for ASG), also to be the face of the organization that is sore need right now (Sorry, Joe), take pressure off of JJ and others of being the man and it can make the team much better on the court and off the court including looking for new owners.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
10:58 am

IF the Hawks could keep JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, and still be able to land Chris Paul, skys the limit for this franchise.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod from College Park

November 30th, 2011
11:04 am

Air Zaza,

What happened in the Milwaukee series the year before when Kurt Thomas totally punked him. Teague was not playing then. How many layups did Brandon Jennings convert with horford standing right under the rim? You must not watch the Hawks, but during the regular season, because Horford has been non-existent is the last two years during the playoffs. I actually like Horford, or I liked him a lot in his first couple of years, but he has now become a soft jump shooting stretch Power forward, with no post moves at all.

Rod from College Park

November 30th, 2011
11:06 am

The Celtics are also making Rondo available.

Rod from College Park

November 30th, 2011
11:08 am

No doubt its time to break up this core. Trade Josh or Horford, Kirk (expiring) and a pick for one of these elite players that will be available. Time to get something done ASG.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:13 am

Vic in Florida

November 30th, 2011
11:13 am

It was a huge mistake giving Joe Johnson all of that money. The guy has been a bust even before they gave him the extension. He flopped in the playoffs before they gave him the money, which had me confused. Why did the Hawks front office think he was worth $100+ million? Jamal should’ve gotten some of that money and we could’ve had some thing to bring a more dependable scorer to Atlanta.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:15 am

CP3, TREVOR, FOR HORFORD, ZAZA, TEAGUE, MARVIN.
THIS TRADE IS A STEAL FOR THE HAWKS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:18 am

Tag Hinrich to clear more cap space, the Hawks would be 18mil under cap.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

Melvin

November 30th, 2011
11:20 am

Nets are offering Brook Lopez and two future first rounders for Dwight. Would Horford and two 1st rounders be a better offer?

doc

November 30th, 2011
11:21 am

jj is the equvalent of mv7, neither one has a good handle on words. it is better they palay the game as they have a handle for spheres (notice the elegant choice of words there?). for some people, for whatever reason, it is best that they say as little as possible and stick to script. jj is one of those types, media and fans be damned. it will only get section 303 upset anyway. :-)

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:22 am

Free agent signing DEANDRE, TJ FORD, WILCOX,
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
11:23 am

The Hawks problems are simple to fix….

1. PG centered offense(Teague and Kirk)
2. Teague develops 12ft jumper..to effectively run the pick-n-roll.
3. Emphasize cutting to the basket…most importantly for Josh, Joe and Marvin.
4. Sign 1 or 2 hustle players(Foster, Humphries or Kirilenko)..2 to 3mill a players should be enough.
5. Sign a 3pt shooter(Roger mason, Reggie Williams-My preference)…1 to 2mil per player.

I think Boston will take a step back and Orlando will be forced to trade D12, so the Hawks will be the 3rd best team in the East.
All of these options are coaching related or cheap and address all the Hawks shortcomings…

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
11:24 am

Coming out of my post strike hibernation. Still trying to warm up to the idea of the greed of the game but hopefully I can move on from this ‘tainted” season. Still no matter what, GO HAWKS. Let’s make a splash.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:28 am

My bad and AL THORTON FREE AGENT.

STARTER CP3, JOE, TREVOR, JOSH, DEANDRE

BENCH TJ FORD, DAMIEN, AL THORTON, WILCOX, COLLINS

RESERVE PAPE, BENSON
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Vic in Florida

November 30th, 2011
11:30 am

I have read crap about Al dissappearing in the playoffs, I have seen anything about this overpayed 2 guard. JJ is the biggest bust Atlanta has ever had. The problem with Atlanta is that whoever it is that is putting together their gameplan thinks Josh is a three point specialist. He is the one that needs to develop a post game. I was disqusted after diving from Florida to see the Heat/Hawks game to see Josh practicing 3 pointers in pre-game warmups. It was then that I understood why he takes so many 3pt attempts in games. JJ just goes through the motions, Josh thinks he sniper skills from long range, and we have the least enthusiastic coach in the league. Al is the least of Atlanta’s worries. In fact he is one of the bright spots on this team. Some of you ATL fans are dillusional. Dominique for headcoach!!!!!!!

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
11:41 am

Okay let’s keep it simple, Marvin, Horford, Zaza, Teague, for CP3, Trevor.
Sign Free agent Deandre, Al Thorton, wilcox

Starter CP3, Joe, Trevor, Josh, Deandre

Bench Hinrich, Damien, Al Thorton, Wilcox, Collins
Reserve Benson, pape
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
11:42 am

Darrell,

You are very adamant to get rid of Al lol.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
11:43 am

Vic,

Since you are soooo short sighted, try and look at the boxscores of the ORL and the CHI series.

Look who brought their A games (ORL series – JJ and specially Jamal) and (CHI series JJ, with Jamal and Josh with very good / monster games in the two wins).

Game 1 in CHI – JJ 34 points
Game 4 in ATL – JJ 10 points in the 4th quarter

Horford’s playoff stats:

First Round ATL MPG39.8 FG%0.403 FT%0.778 oReb2.2 dReb8.0 RPG10.2 APG3.7 STL0.5 BLK1.0 TO1.3 FL2.8 PPG12.0

Conf. Semifinals ATL MPG38.2 FG%0.446 FT%0.750 oReb2.0 dReb7.0 RPG9.0 APG3.3 STL0.3 BLK1.0 TO1.5 FL2.7 PPG10.7

Wabe

November 30th, 2011
12:01 pm

Wouldn’t it be nice to have that other Crawford kid? You know, the one that we traded away to the Wizards who was droppin’ triple-doubles with the PT he got?

Been out a while, because ain’t really been much hoops to talk about. Happy to see we’ll have a season. Not sure if it’ll be any different of a season than the one’s we’ve been seeing for years now.

Just saw an article about how the Hawks will likely try to get over the hump and reach the ECF with the same squad we’ve had – and probably minus Jamal. Guess nothing’s changed on the home front. Typical ASG bullstuff.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:08 pm

Air Zaza,

Those .403 from the field against ORL (and almost exclusively against Bass and Anderson) are surely Teague’s fault hein?

Just Joe

November 30th, 2011
12:09 pm

Any chance that both Josh & Al struggled in the playoffs because of the two teams we drew (solid interior defense)?

Josh in playoffs: 36 mins,15.1 pts & 8.5 rebs on 40% shooting, 12.5% from 3, 2.9 assists, 2.1 blocks, and 2.2 turnovers.

Al in playoffs: 39 mins, 11.3 pts & 9.6 rebs on 42% shooting, 3.5 assists, 1.0 blocks, and 1.4 turnovers.

Keep both these guys. Just get them some help.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:10 pm

Wabe,

Jordan Crawford has potential, but he was shooting like there was no tomorrow.

He could develop into something very good but he could be perennially stuck in the .400 from the field as well due to poor shot selection.

I would love to have him try his thing with us, but I am a realist as well about him potentially not developing a modicum of shot selection.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
12:11 pm

Hawks 4 Life, if the Hawks could get CP3 FOR HORFORD I MAKE THAT TRADE ASAP. CP3 would be the leader of this team on which Hawks so desperate need and also a superstar.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
12:15 pm

Darrell,

What if they prefer Josh. His contract is more flexible and has more “star quality” than Al. How would you feel about that. Im not pro or con for either guy, just discussion by the way.

Worldwide Clyde

November 30th, 2011
12:16 pm

“Jordan Crawford has potential, but he was shooting like there was no tomorrow.”

So was Jamal Crawford. The only difference is Jordan is on a rookie salary.

FIRE SUND

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:20 pm

Just Joe,

Al did not bring EFFORT/SPUNK/HEART during the playoffs and BASS AND ANDERSON do not qualify as powerhouse defenders.

Al’s new found love for the outside shot simply got exposed since that does not work in the playoffs when you do not have a full second to launch the shot.

Bass and Anderson simply closed him out quickly than most teams did during the regular season and that took away the accuracy. It was not anything remotely close to “exceptional defense” NOR even “interior defense” since Al now only shoots/scores from the outside.

You could see Al’s @ss tightening every single time he got the rock during the playoffs.

Josh’s numbers from the field were not good either but that was caused by his poor shot selection. However, there is a big difference to go to war with a guy who wilts under pressure (Al) than to go to war with a guy who is a loose cannon.

You cannot win with guys around you which do not have the b@lls but you can win with guys who are loose cannons BUT HAVE HEART/SPUNK (it’s still difficult though if there is no discipline – but at least you have a chance).

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:24 pm

CP3 for Horford is a NO BRAINER even if we need to add quality filler:

Teague, Marvin, Zaza, 1st round.

HOWEVER, that will not happen.

Fundamentals

November 30th, 2011
12:24 pm

Amen to needing solid leadership. We’re still growing so I have hope. Only problem is our kids have .o consensus who their leader is. We need a good prospect at sf and c. They don’t even have to be superstars, just real team oriented hustle pieces. If feature gets the reins we’ll have all the motion we need on offense and more tenacity on d.

No big baby!

No AI!

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
12:24 pm

Bring back FLIP!

Fundamentals

November 30th, 2011
12:25 pm

MC – How has Benson progressed? Any potential he can be used?

Air Zaza

November 30th, 2011
12:30 pm

vava has made his point clear that he has the logic of doorknob. He gets mad anytime someone says anything about Smith but will continue to mention Horford in series he struggles mainly due to the Hawks lack of offensive movement. During the season when we have had movement Horford has been our most impactful player from stats, film, and what not.

I don’t have the need to bash one player for another like this clown vava. He keeps talking about heart and toughness when most around the league and the organization would say Horford is our toughest player by a mile. But this clown named vava says otherwise.

So why say PER is meaningless when most of the dumb stuff you stew is just opinion. vava is a clown, probably one of Josh Smith idiot friends on a blog site trolling his arse off.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
12:31 pm

Hawks for Life, Josh would be a better player with CP3 than Horford, not only that i gurantee if Josh Jack up a three instead of playing in the post, CP3 would put his foot up Josh A$$ this is what Smoove need to become a superstar a court leader like CP3 telling him how important he will be for success.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Air Zaza

November 30th, 2011
12:34 pm

@ durrell

How would Smith be better with CP3 than Horford?

It’s crap like this that makes you understand why the Atlanta school system almost lost it’s accreditation.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:34 pm

Air Zaza,

It cool to see what you resort to when your arguments (or lack of) falter: you resort to calling me a doorknob, clown, …

:-D good to see how solid is your case…

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:38 pm

And, for your information, since you are new around here and still in your blog diapers, I have always been critical of Josh and his antics.

However, between the two guys, after the wimpy effort I saw Al put in two years in a row and after all that whining that “I am not a C”, “Howard is too big, I need help!”, I take Josh in a heartbeat.

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
12:44 pm

AIR ZAZA, WHAT GAME HAVE YOU WATCH ? A BLIND MAN SOMETIME EYE BONE ANATOMY.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

vava74

November 30th, 2011
12:50 pm

Also, have you noticed the idiocy of your blog alias?

Air Zaza? The only time that Zaza gets airborne is when he boards a plane. :-D

(I like Zaza fo FYI)

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
12:57 pm

So I’ll ask the question… name a player that wouldn’t be better if playing next to a top 5 PG of his generation? I’m confused why Josh would be better playing next to CP3 but not Horford (or even Zaza for that matter).

Vic in Florida

November 30th, 2011
12:59 pm

vava, plz……… How many big games have u gotten out JJ. Al is gives far more than JJ or Josh, and way more dependable. Where was Joe in the playoffs the yr before last b4 he was given the money? Al is a forward playing center. U picked one or two games JJ played half decent in, and he is suppose to be the leading scorer. His azz shouldda been gone before last season. I have been a fan since Dan Roundtree and Tree Rollins. I didn’t just start this.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:08 pm

CP3!

If Boston is offering Rondo & CP3 chooses to sign an extension with the younger, high-flying Hawks then, what Boston wants will not amount to a hill of beans in “Bean Town.”. LOL!

Aye Sund! You finally got a superstar that actually wants to come to Atlanta – so, do your job & make it happen! Where is Billy Knight when you need him.

Najeh, Grand Daddy, Grandmaster JeJe: what would you do for a Klon-Dike Bar? i.e. (CP3)?

Teague & 2 protected first round picks? Hmmm … Or better yet, Kirk & 2 protected 1st Rounders? What will it take IF CP3 locks in onto the Hawks like Melo did with New York?

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:16 pm

Astro Joe!

What would you give for CP3? He may be the piece that brings Dwight home as well. Imagine that? Wow!

Vic in Florida

November 30th, 2011
1:18 pm

Can ATL afford CP3 and Dwight? I doubt it.

vava74

November 30th, 2011
1:19 pm

Vic,

We got from JJ a lot more high quality games than we got from Al in the playoffs. A LOT MORE.

JJ played great in 07/08 against the Celts, owned Wade in 08/09, was a monster for half of the MIL series in 09/10 (check his stats games 1 to 4) until he sulked when he saw the indiscipline in the team (and Kurt Thomas PUNKING Al at 37 years old).

Yes, he disappeared against ORL in 09/10 and I also think he should have played better but Highway Al was getting out of the way every time Howard got the rock from tip off. Kind of difficult to remain motivated in light of that and Woody’s complete lack of game plan.

Last year JJ had a very good 1st round series and had a pretty decent series against CHI with one monster game 1 performance which could have got us the upset bid going if it wasn’t for LD complete miss management of Game 2 and then in Game 4 HE held the fort in the 4th quarter with 10 points after a monster game by Josh.

Al got 20 points (on 8/9 shooting MAINLY FROM THE OUTSIDE) also in game 4 of the CHI series to go along FIVE (5) rebounds.

JJ is not perfect from a spunk/heart point of view – never said that – put he shows up far more often than Al.

The discussion is: if a trade for CP3 comes up, who do you give, Josh or Al?

The answer for me is Al, without ANY QUESTION.

By the way, look at JJ’s stats in last year’s playoffs. If something happened wrong last year with JJ was that he shot too LITTLE during the CHI series.

Mike

November 30th, 2011
1:26 pm

@Vic in Florida

You right, it is kinda of hard to offer for both of them. But we need to get one of them. Something needs to happen, the core isnt working, we cant be stuck on neurtal anymore, a shakeup needs to happen, period.

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
1:26 pm

Darrell,

Personally I think Al would be a better fit with him but I can see and respect your point. I really wish we werent strapped with JJ’s contract, more than that I really wish the sale of the hawks stuck.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:28 pm

Tokyo Drift!

If Horford keeps drifting away from the basket, I would trade his azz too! I don’t care if he shoots 60% from beyond the arc, we need his BIG azz in the paint.

We already got a SG being paid very well to hit those shots. It’s all about playing your role and balancing the floor with spacing and offensive schemes to score. Especially in the 3rd & 4th quarters, (where this team struggles). It all starts with Drew.

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
1:34 pm

Drmary,

I think the drifting and Josh ending up at the three point line is a breakdown in coaching.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:34 pm

Affordability!

Yes Atlanta can afford CP3 & Dwight, if they get rid off all their scrubs and overpaid players. That’s what a Real GM does, it’s why he get’s paid the big bucks.

That’s not a problem for the fans to worry about! Pay some luxury tax and get a heart!

darrell starks

November 30th, 2011
1:45 pm

drmary thanks for thinking positive unlike some of the bandwagon fans in this city.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
1:49 pm

Woody Ball!

“Drmary,

I think the drifting and Josh ending up at the three point line is a breakdown in coaching.” -hawk_4_life-
_____________

Exactly! Mr. Woodson never had this problem, he was cracking skulls. But, these Prima Donnas didn’t like his yelling tones, they don’t wanna’ win – they wanna’ be coddled (they call it respect). SMH

I say, respect the game!

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
1:51 pm

To get CP3

No way we get CP3 without offering Al and Teague. Without Al/Josh and Teague, are we that much better with just CP3….I am not sure, but he would sell tickets.

Say what you want about Al or Josh, they have their positive attributes…

AL- Shot 57% from 12-18ft, Rebs and spaces the floor.

Josh- Is a excellent shot blocker and plays the passing lane very well.

To lose either without replacing their skill would hurt this team, because the TRUTH IS we need what they both bring…

SO WHO IS MORE REPLACEABLE?????

hawks_4_life

November 30th, 2011
1:52 pm

Guys,

Just a question but do you remember the good ole days of the NBA. Not the good ole hawk day, Im talking late 80s and 90s. Im talking a time where there is no bickering, no superstar calls, regular season intensity, no flopping. Players respected the game and there was no Prima Donna like drmaryb said.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
2:00 pm

CP3!

“No way we get CP3 without offering Al and Teague. Without Al/Josh and Teague, are we that much better with just CP3….I am not sure, but he would sell tickets.”
-rufus1-
_______________

Or … IF CP3 refuses to sign a trade extension to force his way to Atlanta, then he can walk on as an UFA in the Summer. There is no looming CBA lockout next season, so there is no leverage in New Orleans. They will have to take whatever they can get for Chris Paul or risk getting nothing.

It’s all predicated on where CP3 wants to play at that point. I heard Paul was shopping for a house in Atlanta last week. The weather and lifestyle sure beats Bean-Town, by far.

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
2:17 pm

Mary, i think Josh and Teague would likely get it done for CP3. The thing about Josh (vs. Al) is that his contract expires in 2 seasons so the Hornets would have more payroll options. Plus, it would be easier to market Josh and Teague as an exciting tandem more than Al. I’m not as high on Dwight as others, he’s the best center in the game today but that speaks mostly to the decline in the position (more than it does to Dwight’s greatness). Similarly, I’d take any of the top 3-5 young PGs… I’m no huge fan of the oft-injured CP3. So while others get wrapped around about specifics, I would gladly trade Josh/Teague for a top 3-5 PG who is NOT in decline and would bring clear leadership to the team. That list does not begin and end with CP3.

With all that said, the best way too improve the team remains hiring the right head coach. It doesn’t require a cooperative trade partner nor will it require matching salaries or comparable talent returned. A team incapable of making the easier decision regarding hiring a head coach is not very likely to know how to use trades to upgrade the roster.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
2:18 pm

Sorry I skipped a bunch o’ posts;
I could not wait to get on board.

I’ll catch up in a min.
____________________________________________

Hawks need to trade for Paul over Howard
* Why *
Howard needs a guard to make him effective.
* Therefore *
Paul is a SuperDuperStar by Himself !!
* Also *
If the League gets Drug [blood] Testing passed
in the final details of the CBA – be careful wishing for Dwight ?
____________________________________________

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
2:19 pm

A team incapable of making the easier decision regarding hiring a head coach is not very likely to know how to use trades to upgrade the roster.

One is addition and the other is trigonometry.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
2:22 pm

vava

(you’re nuts)

left, right, left, right, uppercut, knee to the groin, watch out …..
-here comes a masked black lady-
comin’ up from behind with a steel metal chair;
ain’t she purty,
(shades of Scotty Ferrell & Larry Munson with a touch o’ Gordon Solie)
vava’s out – layin’ on the floor bleedin’;
while – G-dad alias the assp & the the masked, Lady Black Momba (sic),
jump in the ring proclaiming #1 evidently by holding up their finger m!m.

____________________________________________

vava

All in good fun.

My weak attempt at humor today.

I really don’t think your nuts.

*[except about Horford]

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
2:26 pm

Recruit!

Hey, if Joe wants to help his agent, Arn Tellem words come true – he can start recruiting CP3 before Dec. 9th.

@ darrell starks: yeah my friend … Thoughts become Words becomes Actions becomes Character determines Destiny. Thinking positive is the key that unlocks your destiny.

See Pat Riley! He got what he wanted in So. Beach – right? That’s the difference between winners and losers!
______________

@hawks_4_life: These players today are soft and, couple that with the referees – nowadays, you can’t even give a dirty look to Durant and LeBron without being tagged with a foul. Matador Defense in the paint is like ushering the raging bull towards the rim with a red skirt. LOL!

If we lose Josh for CP3, who will guard the rim, alter shots and run the wings after rebounding? Josh does a lot for the Hawks, he’s a true stat stuffer. We just don’t need him dribbling on fast breaks any more. Give it to Paul and run like hell! LOL!

Grandmaster JeJe

November 30th, 2011
2:26 pm

Dr. Mary,

I would offer Teague and Smoove and maybe a 1st for CP3 and a scrub. a bit leery about Paul though…his health concerns me and he looks a bit thick- no homo

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
2:35 pm

@drmaryb .[*_*].

I believe/ hope he would stay in ATL if he thought he could win and I think he is a “Son of the South”. I also believe based on what I have read, CP3 is one of the few players who wants to win more, than play in a certain city.

We have won 50 games without him(CP3), without Teague and Just a little Marvin, if he comes to the ATL we would be title contenders and he knows that….So Unless we can get Okafor back in the trade I can’t give up Josh or Al, because I think he would leave.

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
2:41 pm

“If the League gets Drug [blood] Testing passed
in the final details of the CBA – be careful wishing for Dwight ?”- Grandad

I can’t believe you went there, but I agree! :)

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
2:46 pm

Drifter!

“AL- Shot 57% from 12-18ft, Rebs and spaces the floor.”
-rufus1-
______________

And that IS the problem, if your BIG is playing 12-18FT AWAY from the basket, who is going to get the rebounds when he bricks the other 43% of those shots?

It’s not about making that shot, it’s about playing a style of basketball, where your BIGS control the paint.

Joe said it best last season in frustration, “We are ALL jump shooters – it is what it is!” Rufus1, do you think that was a compliment to his teammates? Now add Josh’s jumpers to Al’s and that’s what we got! Raining Jumpers.

SMH! Meanwhile, no one is playing any defense.

Is that what Mr. Naismith envisioned? A slew of 7 footers playing from 18 feet? Crowded back couts and 24 Hour drive thru lanes with no one at the window and on the cash register. Free Food!!!!

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
2:49 pm

The Celtics are trying to enlist Indy to work a trade
for Rondo, need a 3rd team.
Celts ultimate goal = Paul.
(Celts trying to acquire enough “young” talent to get CP3)

* Now *

Hawks should do this:

3 way;

Josh to Indy – they [Indy] have Josh on their wish list
Granger to N.O.
Teague & Zaza to N.O.
Paul to Atl.
works on trade machine -still gotta pass muster- even wi new CBA
This is an expansion of my previous suggestion yesterday.

I think it was BuddyG who stated that N.O.
would only have Josh for two yrs.
Granger would give them an extra yr. [3 years on contract]

_____________________________________________

Regardless of vava;
we should keep Al & pair with Chris Paul.

Also, we would very much need to get Chris Paul a Coach,
one of the highest order.
We would need to make him this promise.

____________________________________________

Why keep Teaguer if we’re getting Paul ? hypothetically ?
vava ?

____________________________________________

Beat the Celts to the punch ?

* Sund *

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I’m sorry I blacked out for a moment;
did I say something.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
3:05 pm

Mary Ellen

I love you,
but why is it a problem for a player to play to his strengths.
[referring to Al as being efficient from 12 to 8 ft]
You have always been a proponent of Laimbeer !
He was a face up Center on offense – that was -his- game.

Please, don’t get hung up on trying to make someone …
-what they are not- “I refer to vava”.
Because Al is not Rodman, Oakley, Majorn, et al;
then all of a sudden he becomes a sissy.
If that be true;
then all the NBA are sissies !

I had this very argument over thanksgiving;
literally, modern day players try, again literally;
playing “a mile” in their “shoes” !

Therefore,
toughness is relative.
Those of us on this here blog …
can’t even define much less quantify toughness.

Diaper Al my Ass !

I’m a Bad Ass … I can define & quantify it Yawl !

There – IRMC

____________________________________________

Most of that was not @ you, darlin’.

Grandad

November 30th, 2011
3:08 pm

” then all the NBA are sissies ! ”

*Should have read:

** then all the “current / present day” NBA are sissies **

Grandmaster JeJe

November 30th, 2011
3:10 pm

Can’t ASG spend money now that the Thrashers are gone? These guys should be able to

MsDee

November 30th, 2011
3:21 pm

Not sure why people would give up Teague & Josh for CP3??? He is truely accident prone, havent played a whole season yet, and im sure this short 66 game season wont be any different. CP3, yes a great PG, but is he worth a young and excelling Teague?? My answer is He11-to the-Naw!!

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
3:23 pm

Whoa Nellie!

“The Celtics are trying to enlist Indy to work a trade
for Rondo, need a 3rd team.
Celts ultimate goal = Paul.
(Celts trying to acquire enough “young” talent to get CP3)” -Grand-Daddy-
_______________

I hope this is not the case. Last I checked the NBA is still on Lock Down! The players are still de-certified and the owners have yet to vote and sign their end of the CBA.

So, if agents are talking to teams about players then, Stern better get his fine book out and start writing some tampering tickets.

But, hey we fans can fantasize all we want – all day and all night.

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
3:29 pm

@drmaryb .[*_*].

“do you think that was a compliment to his teammates? Now add Josh’s jumpers to Al’s and that’s what we got! Raining Jumpers.” – drmary

No, I don’t think it compliments his team. I thought he would use his jumper to compliment his low post game, but he became a jump shooter. I think he needs to go back to the block develop his left hand and become the offense rebounding force we need.

I think Al and Josh need to stay below the foul line attacking the rim and offensive glass….I think Josh’s untapped skill is cutting to the basket.- (These are all coaching issues)

FreshFromATL

November 30th, 2011
3:33 pm

drmaryb .[*_*].,

Teams were able to start negotiations officially at 9AM this morning, however contracts can’t be signed until December 9th. So free agency, has essentially begun in a way. Practice facilities are set to open tomorrow. I wonder if there is something going on with the Hawks because a lot of teams are making phone calls right now.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
3:34 pm

What a Team Needs!

“but why is it a problem for a player to play to his strengths.
[referring to Al as being efficient from 12 to 8 ft]
You have always been a proponent of Laimbeer !”
-Grand-Daddy-
_______________

Because, like it or not, Horford IS our center. His strength may NOT be what our team need right now. Until and unless we get a real Center, Horford is gonna’ have to suck it up and play in the paint! Why is that so hard to understand?

Laimbeer played defense and banged with Rick Mahorn on his hip! They had Isaiah Thomas (HOF) and Vinnie Microwave and Dennis Rodman (HOF). There is NO comparison to Horford and the Hawks here – The Hawks haven’t had a HOF player since Nique played in the 80’s.

Laimbeer is 7 Feet tall … Are you really gopnna’ compare Horford to Laimbeer and 25 years later in another time & place? Come on Poppy!
_______________

The Hawks need Horford in the paint until more qualified help arrives – Period. Dwight hasn’t said he wants to play here, but CP3 has! That’s a good start.

Slimjr

November 30th, 2011
3:34 pm

Trade Allstar Al.
Wavie Marvina
Fire Sund and Larry
Atlanta Spirit Group take a hike!
Hire some oiled down Brazilian Cheeleaders…Yeah!

CP3 is gonna be a Knick someday I bet!

Some things seem to never change in the Atlanta Professional Sports Landscape…

Slimjr

November 30th, 2011
3:39 pm

“I wonder if there is something going on with the Hawks because a lot of teams are making phone calls right now.”

Remember Rick Sund is your GM, ASG are still the owners, so no, don’t wonder..Nothing’s gonna change around these parts…..Same Ole _____!

Sund kick ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
3:42 pm

“Because Al is not Rodman, Oakley, Majorn, et al;
then all of a sudden he becomes a sissy.”- Grandad

I agree you shouldn’t put a “square peg in a round hole” but players need to fill voids. We have a void of rebounding and toughenss and I thought Al was paid with the thought he would be that player….Just like I thought Josh was paid to bring shot blocking and energy…..Instead we got 25mil worth of 6′10 jump shooters.

I have no problem with Al shooting jumpers, but Josh and Al can’t be our starting front court playing their current style.

Slimjr

November 30th, 2011
3:45 pm

Al or Josh has got go to challenge and partake in an ECF for the very first time…..

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
3:45 pm

@drmaryb .[*_*].

I co-sign on your post about Al….the word is called “Balance”

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
3:47 pm

CP3!

Hey Ms. Dee! Wassup home gurl? Jump on in here and get you some ashy elbows and knees in your neck and back.

LOL! I sure have missed you and your fine comments! I was also very concerned about CP3 knees season before last, but this past season he looked very stable and strong.

I would take that risk in a heart beat right now. CP3 on one knee is better than anything we got on this roster healthy!

doc was an orthopedic surgeon in ER, I’m sure of that. We discussed Paul’s knee in great detail and based on what doc said, if push came to shove – CP3 would benefit greatly If micro-fracture surgery was needed/required down the road. All I have to say about that is look how well Amare Stoudamire has recovered and played.

So no, I’m not scared of Paul’s knee at this point. Whatever it takes to get a bona-fide Super Star in Atlanta. Sign him up! Pack everybody’s bag and let’s go! If I’m wrong, oh well, at least I tried!

Wabe

November 30th, 2011
3:48 pm

CP3 has made it clear that he won’t sign a long-term extension with a number of clubs. He’s echoed that his heart is in NOLA, but, I think he wants to be in New York.

So, if we did give a peice of this core, would it be worth it to get him as a ‘rental’ type guy?

Grandmaster JeJe

November 30th, 2011
3:54 pm

Agreed about Amare, but if CP3 got hurt for us after we sent the bank for him, our lineup would look something like:

Hinrich
Joe
Duck
Horford
Cheeseburger

Bench:
Z
Freije
Bozeman
Cenk Akyol
Kevin Willis
John Lucas VIII

Grandmaster JeJe

November 30th, 2011
3:59 pm

Wasn’t there a JJ for CP3 trade idea floating around maybe 2 yrs ago? Lolz

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
4:04 pm

I don’t know why we should only discuss trades for Howard and CP3. Let’s go out and trade for Blake Griffin and Kevin Durant. If we get to make up any ole stupid ish, let’s go for the gold.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
4:05 pm

Co-Sign!

Yes Rufus1! Now your talking Hawks basketball my friend. I co-sign your last 3 posts big time! It does all start with coaching.

@FreshFromAtl: thanks my friend for the latest scoop on the CBA and teams. Where is MC? If it weren’t for you guys – I wouldn’t know anything at all.

Aye MC! Can you put up a new blog maane?

Just Joe

November 30th, 2011
4:08 pm

Given a choice, I’d trade for Rondo over Chris Paul. Hinrich, Teague, and a future 1st.

Rajon Rondo, Josh Smith & Al Horford is solid, PROVEN young core to build on.

Mike

November 30th, 2011
4:17 pm

@Just Joe

That could be a proven core but do they put butt in seats at Phillips? No! Can Rondo be the leader and face of this team: No! Right now, beside looking for a new owners, that is what Hawks need the most.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
4:20 pm

UFA!

Astro Joe baby, because Dwight & CP3 are UFA. next Summer. Both have strongly indicated they will not be resigning with their respective teams and of course:

Orlando and New Orleans do not want to risk them walking like LeBron did and not get anything in return. Conversely, Durant and Dirk just sign max-extensions last year and are untouchable. Blake is still on his rookie deal and surely The Clippers will make a qualifying offer to match any other team that makes a run at him when his is free.

I’m assuming you really didn’t know this and are not just being sarcastic. Am I right? (smile)

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
4:29 pm

Mary, sarcastic? What does that mean?

IMO, the ASG are too busy trying to find a buyer (I don’t believe the nonsense that the team is no longer up for sale), to deal with the calculus of trading for a megastar. Sorry, I think we’d be lucky to get a mid-tier level player in the next 25 days.

drmaryb .[*_*].

November 30th, 2011
4:36 pm

Wabe!

Wassup? Good to hear from you man. Yeah ESPN is reporting today, that Atlanta is on CP3 list of teams he would sign an extension with.

HoosierHawk

November 30th, 2011
4:40 pm

Dump Marvin’s salary and sign shane battier.

Rufus1

November 30th, 2011
4:43 pm

Slimjr

November 30th, 2011
4:54 pm

“Yeah ESPN is reporting today, that Atlanta is on CP3 list of teams he would sign an extension with.”

Ken Strickland could help Soft Al pack his bags!!! lol

AL and Teague for future HOF CP3??????????????

Make it so yesterday Scottie!!!!!! Aye Captain!

Astro Joe

November 30th, 2011
4:57 pm

You know, if CP3 is gung-ho about coming to Atlanta (which is slightly different than being gung-ho about playing for the Hawks), then the Hawks would be wise to kind of sit back and let things play out. The Knicks did that last season with regard to Melo and they essentially sent a bunch of stiffs over to Denver as a result. The Hawks can get word to CP3’s agent without involving every media outlet in the basketball world that they will gladly make the moves required to bring CP3 in. But that does not need to be made available for public consumption. Just sayin’.

Melvin

November 30th, 2011
4:59 pm

Troy Murphy and Joel Przybilla are two quality bigs that should be in the Hawks price range…. Rebounding, shooting and size… Nice package of inside/outside….

Just Joe

November 30th, 2011
5:00 pm

Rondo is the safer choice. More durable. Cheaper & already signed. Better defender. More affordable trade value.

Dump Joe Johnson to Cleveland for Antawn Jamison.
Dump Marvin & ZaZa to the Clippers for Chris Kaman (or a similar salary dump).

Go in to next offseason owing $37M to Rondo, Smith & Horford, with a 1st round pick and multiple second round picks.

Would Dwight sign as a free agent?

Slimjr

November 30th, 2011
5:17 pm

Hire Billy Knight the self proclaimed “Basketball Expert”! lol

Sautee

November 30th, 2011
5:21 pm

Vava74, and Rod from CP,

Both of y’all are using revisionist history regarding Al and Kurt Thomas. Yes, I saw what you did. Al did get punked ON A FEW TRIPS, but overall, he played very near his season stats for that series. He actually rebounded at a higher rate (9.8 to 9.3 for the season), and had more blocked shots (2.1 vs. 1.04 reg. season), so to say that Thomas “punked him” is hardly the case. His scoring was BAD in games 3 and 4 (where Thomas indeed pushed him off his spots), but for the entire series he scored 14.5 / gm which was just slightly less than his season avg. of 15.3.

And Rod, somehow you don’t remember ANY of the 15 blocks that Al had during the series? None?

Selective memory I guess.

Anyway, just trying to keep it real. Al would tell you he didn’t play his best, but to say in a blanket statement that Al got “punked” for the series is a big stretch. A few trips, ok, but look at the stats, and it’ll tell you differently.

My two cents.

Michael Cunningham

November 30th, 2011
5:24 pm

New blog is posted. Shutting down this thread.