Atlanta Hawks: No magical relief for Hawks in CBA
SI.com’s Sam Amick obtained details of the principal agreement between NBA owners and whatever-the-current-union-group-is-called. The full document is here.
It looks like the cap and tax levels will remain about the same: $58 million and $70 million, respectively. As noted previously, this doesn’t leave the Hawks much room to add salary below the tax threshold since they have about $65 million in guaranteed salary committed to seven players and must add at least six more.
There is an amnesty provision in the (tentative) deal, to be used one time over the life of the CBA (10 years, or six if either side decides to opt out). It can be used only on existing contracts and will allow 100 percent of the players’ salary to be removed for cap and tax purposes. The “stretch” provision, which would allow a waived players’ payments and cap salary to be spread out beyond the length of the contract, will be available only for new contracts.
My reading of the agreement suggests the amnesty provision may not be a significant short-term cap/tax cure for the Hawks. This is assuming it won’t be used on J.J., which seems to be a safe bet unless you believe the Hawks are willing to pay him $107 million to while he plays elsewhere over the next five years.
(An aside on that note: One element included in the deal is a “modified waiver process” that allows teams under the cap to “submit competing offers [for amnesty players] to assume some but not all of the players’ remaining contract.” However, “the remaining portion of the player’s salary will continue to be paid by the team that waived him.” It will be interesting to see that dynamic in action.)
Judging by the comments of my blog people, Tweeps and the radio interview I did yesterday, Marvin is the people’s choice to be waived under the amnesty clause. The move would reduce Atlanta’s salary commitments for 2011-12 from $65 million to about $57 million. Assuming the accounting down to the final cent comes to about that figure, Atlanta’s team salary would be just below the expected salary-cap level.
That doesn’t do much for the Hawks.
From there, they could spend what’s left of the cap room and then use the new “Mid-Level Exception for Room Teams” for teams that do so (under the old CBA, teams could either renounce free agents and use the cap room or use cap exceptions, but not both). This exception provides a first-year salary of up to $2.5 million in 2011-12 and a maximum contract length of two years. It’s available for “one or more” free agents. But teams that use it forfeit the use of the non-taxpayer MLE (with max starting salary of $5 million and up to four years) and the bi-annual exception (starting salary of $1.9 million and up to two years).
So, if I’m reading this correctly (please tell me in the comments if you think I’m missing something), the Hawks could waive Marvin under the amnesty clause, and then round out the roster using one or more of the $2.5 million exceptions and minimum-salary exceptions. Keep in mind that ASG still would be paying Marvin his $8 million salary in 2011-12 plus the salaries of the added players.
This is where ASG gets input from their basketball people and number-crunchers on a cost-benefit analysis for a future track: Should they keep Marvin for now, use part of the $5 million MLE for non-taxpayers to add a piece and then–gasp!–pay some luxury tax on the salaries added beyond those nine players?
The new rate in the first two years of the CBA is $1.50 $1 for each $1 over the threshold up to $5 million, so this path actually could end up costing ASG less than letting Marvin go and adding vets using the “room” MLE. (This obviously would cost more than letting Marvin go and then rounding out the roster on the cheap, but I won’t go there out of respect for my blog people.) The Hawks then could gain some relief under the tax threshold next season by letting Kirk Hinrich’s deal expire, leaving them with roughly $61.6 million in guaranteed salaries for six players in 2012-13.
I suppose the Hawks could choose to use the amnesty provision on Hinrich. The drawback is that, unlike with Marvin, this would provide no tax/cap relief beyond 2012-13. Hinrich also figures to be a decent trade chip. I’d also add that, no matter what you think of Hinrich, his contributions wouldn’t be as easy to replace with a cheaper player. Same thing goes for Zaza, who is making less than the full MLE anyway.
The bottom line: If ASG wants to add productive, veteran players, they are going to have to pay one way (luxury tax) or another (amnesty plus replacement salaries). The only question is how much do they want to pay.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
113 comments Add your comment
JJ
November 27th, 2011
1:16 pm
This looks like a messy situation – especially when I keep reading the letters “ASG” throughout this blog.
hmmmmm
November 27th, 2011
1:23 pm
you are assuming they want to add productive players…they may just sign some minimum guys and keep trying to sell the team
UGA
November 27th, 2011
1:31 pm
So if the Hawks use the midlevel exceptions and that puts them over the cap………….they pay the luxury tax still?
PD
November 27th, 2011
1:43 pm
Oh boy………..who do you cut is a tough game to play. Marvin is the best bet. Then sign Al Thorton and Jamal Carwford and get some bigs
UGA
November 27th, 2011
1:46 pm
So the Hawks have 9 players that will probably be under contract, including Sy and Benson? I would say 11 because Collins and Damien Wilkins will be back. I would also assume ASG will want to keep Josh Smith. So we gotta find a scorer to replace Crawford, or pay him big time, and a big man……
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
1:46 pm
@UGA: “So if the Hawks use the midlevel exceptions and that puts them over the cap………….they pay the luxury tax still?”
if it puts them over the tax threshold then, yes, the amounts of team salary above the threshold are subject to the tax. but teams can’t go more than $4 million above the tax to do this. so if, for instance, the team salary is $500,000 below the tax line, the team can use up to $4.5 million of the MLE>
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
1:49 pm
@hmmm: “you are assuming they want to add productive players…they may just sign some minimum guys and keep trying to sell the team”
ha, no way i would assume that. just saying if they want to do so, here are their options.
but even adding minimum-salaried vets to get to 13 is going to mean paying some tax unless they amnesty someone. i guess they could go with Zaza and Marvin/Hinrich/Teague as their bench and add nothing but young guys. if so, you’ll know they’ve given up.
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
1:50 pm
That sucks…
Greg
November 27th, 2011
1:55 pm
MC, as I read it, the $1.50 per $1.00 tax doesn’t kick in until after this season and next.
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
1:56 pm
So MC, would you assume the hawks are going to be the one of those teams that don’t agree with the new CBA? I can’t beleive I’m saying this but, (because i was on the players side) I think they could’ve gotten a better deal.
northcyde
November 27th, 2011
1:59 pm
You DO NOT use that amnesty clause this year, under any circumstances.
The time to use it is when Josh Smith’s contract is up. By then, we’ll know exactly where we stand with Teague ( as far as an extension ) . . and we’ll see if JJ is either still the same player, a little better player, or is in decline. If we wait until then, we could get MAXIMUM VALUE from the amnesty of a player.
As MC correctly points out, to amnesty Marvin only means that we could use the MLE on one player, or the bi-annual exception on a few players. Honestly, that isn’t worth it, if we STILL have to pay Marvin the rest of the money due on his contract.
The ASG is still financially not in position to just pay some guy that they’re not playing, just to bring in a few journeyman players that will probably not be the difference between the Hawks getting to an NBA Finals.
I know people are waaaay down on Marvin, but until the ASG gets some significant revenue generated, I don’t think they’d amnesty any guy on this team until it is economically viable to do so. Marvin would still be part of the “operational costs” of the Hawks, even if he’s not part of the “payroll costs”.
We just have too much in salary right now, in order to use that right now. I hope the ASG keeps it in its back pocket like a Monopoly “Get Out Of Jail” free card.
Hawks free agent signings will be similar to last year:
- sign Keith Benson ( to be our backup PF/C . . despite him being garbage overseas )
- sign a FA center ( hopefully we could get an upgrade above Jason Collins )
- sign a SF ( probably Damien Wilkins )
- sign another PG ( hopefully this would be Allen Iverson . . simply for box office purposes . . or for him to play Teague’s role last year as the 2nd qtr PG )
Add Pape Sy and Magnum Rolle ( who are already on the hook for 788K this year . . . and there are your 6 players
In other words . . . our STARS have to play like STARS on a consistent basis, with Teague and Hinrich hopefully playing up to their potential. And as always, Marvin is the wild card.
Section 303
November 27th, 2011
2:00 pm
So, the Hawks do not HAVE to use the amnesty this season, right? If they can bag it until next season, why not keep Marvin for one more year? The Hawks have said several times that they still think Marvin has some trade value. Plus, he still helps with though matchups on D and he does have the tools to be a good offensive player (does not always show it, though).
Try to trade Marvin or keep him for one more year. If does not work out, use the amnesty on him next season. That takes his contract and Hinrich’s off the books at the same time. Gives the Hawks room to add a good player to start 2012-2013 season.
Early prediction: Joe Johnson starts the year off hot. He stays in great shape all the time. Betting that gives him an edge on a lot of guys, who might have let themselves go a bit during Lockout off time.
Also, how long before the Josh Smith trade rumors start? I could see him being traded. Score the first game.
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
2:01 pm
Seems the most logical option is to wait and dump Joe during year 5 & 6 of his contract when his production won’t be in the same hemisphere of his contract. Using the one chip on Marvin now (and then having limited options to dispose of Joe later) would be foolish and wasteful.
Given the lack of ramp-up room prior to the season;s start, having 7 players who know each other well may actually provide a little competitive advantage over those teams who need to complete gaps in their primary player rotation. Hopefully enough of an advantage to secure a top 4 seed in the conference,
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
2:07 pm
I wonder if Larry Drew can shape this Hawks team into a defensive minded team.
Buddy Grizzard
November 27th, 2011
2:09 pm
From the previous blog…
“PF – Smoove and Kito” – Steve W.
Kito couldn’t stick in the Italian league. I’m guessing the Hawks will try to milk one more season out of Jason Collins, in which case he will play backup center while Zaza backs up power forward and center. Keep in mind, the Hawks lost the CHI series because dumbass Drew played unproductive Jamal Crawford and Jason Collins too many minutes while playing Zaza, with the best +/- of any Hawk in the postseason, too few minutes. Collins is done, but don’t expect Hawks management to understand that.
“The key question is what if u were to wait a few years and if Joe Johnson clearly regresses due to age…” – brigadierjerry
Clearly the best strategy for the Amnesty Clause. Waiving Marvin isn’t necessary because he can be traded for a draft pick and have his salary completely off the books. Remember, the Hawks have had trade offers for Marvin. After his back surgery, he may become a viable NBA player in which case we might get a significant asset back for him such as a conditional first round pick. After this season, if you dump Marvin and Kirk comes off the books, that’s $16m in cap room for the next off season.
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
2:09 pm
@Greg: “MC, as I read it, the $1.50 per $1.00 tax doesn’t kick in until after this season and next.”
yes, same as the old CBA. but the salary for tax purposes includes guys with expiring contracts in the previous season and those released with guaranteed money owed (except now for Amnesty). In other words, Kirk’s salary (or, if he’s traded, the player(s) that replace him) will count for the tax.
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
2:16 pm
@concerned fan: “So MC, would you assume the hawks are going to be the one of those teams that don’t agree with the new CBA? I can’t beleive I’m saying this but, (because i was on the players side) I think they could’ve gotten a better deal.”
it was reported the Hawks were among the hard-line teams who didn’t like the proposal before this one, and i think it’s safe to say the final deal is worse for owners than that one. i couldn’t independently verify the Hawks were hard-liners but it would make sense.
the owners got a very good deal from the BRI standpoint because about $300 million annually is going back to them. we will see how the system issues work out but i do think there are provisions that will mean more good mid-level FAs on the market.
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
2:17 pm
@ northcyde: “As MC correctly points out, to amnesty Marvin only means that we could use the MLE on one player, or the bi-annual exception on a few players. Honestly, that isn’t worth it, if we STILL have to pay Marvin the rest of the money due on his contract. ”
actually, it’s the other way around: multiple MLEs, one biannual. but your point still holds.
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
2:18 pm
@Section 303: “So, the Hawks do not HAVE to use the amnesty this season, right?”
right. can be used one time over the life of the CBA and has to be executed before the season begins.
Greg
November 27th, 2011
2:27 pm
But MC, as I understood it, it will continue to be $1 per $1 tax for the next two years… so the $1.50 won’t come into play with Hinrich since that contract will be done… or, what am I missing here?
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
2:40 pm
@Greg: “But MC, as I understood it, it will continue to be $1 per $1 tax for the next two years… so the $1.50 won’t come into play with Hinrich since that contract will be done… or, what am I missing here?”
you are missing nothing. i missed it. fixed. thanks.
ryan
November 27th, 2011
2:47 pm
What a surprise NBA and David Stern just can not stand ASG until this cancer is out and we get a new owner things will stay the same .
Buddy Grizzard
November 27th, 2011
2:55 pm
“I guess they could go with Zaza and Marvin/Hinrich/Teague as their bench and add nothing but young guys.” – MC
I’m confused… what is your starting lineup? I see both candidates for opening night starting point guard on your bench. If I was coach, this would be my depth chart for the Hawks this year:
Starters:
PG: Teague
SG: JJ
SF: Damien (not signed)
PF: Smoove
C: All-NBA Al
Primary backups:
PG: Hinrich
SG: Hinrich
SF: Marvin
PF: Zaza
C: Zaza
That’s 8 players. The following are players who won’t play significant minutes but are signed to deals below the vetern’s minimum to take up a roster spot and provide the Hawks with some savings:
Magnum Rolle
Pape Sy
Kito Benson
That’s 11 players. Add Jason Collins at a one year veteran’s minimum deal at $1.2m (in addition to a one year deal for Damien) and that puts the Hawks right at $69m in committed salaries for a 12 man roster. Think Sund didn’t plan that?
Nate
November 27th, 2011
3:04 pm
Hawks suck. ASG is getting what it deserves. Long live the Thrashers!!! Gone, but not forgotten!
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
3:09 pm
@Buddy: i meant one of Teague, Hinrich or Marvin coming off the bench. Hinrich or Teague as starting PG with Marvin at 3, or Marvin on bench with Joe at 3 and Teague and Hinrich at guards.
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
3:25 pm
Yep, waiving any player with a year left makes no sense (in our case, Hinrich) and Marvin’s deal isn’t nearly as punitive now as Joe’s deal will be in another 3 years. Hawks need to have the discipline to not waste their ability to free up cap space a little later. Likewise, they have to look at the contracts of other players to determine when would be the optimum time to free up cap space. There are several variables to consider other than the simple desire to dispose of Marvin as soon as possible.
Zit
November 27th, 2011
3:31 pm
This team will have to be re-located in order to find a dope to buy it.
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
3:44 pm
Someone needs to buy this team.
Buddy Grizzard
November 27th, 2011
3:53 pm
Correction… Pape and Magnum are signed… Kito won’t be signed until the NBA opens for business. But my point holds… he’s a second round pick so his contract will be sub-veteran’s minimum.
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
4:34 pm
Buddy, unless there is a trade made, it wouldn;t surprise me if the Hawks only sign 3 FAs including Damien to complete the 13 man roster. 7 of the top 8 from last year (excluding Jamal), Benson, Rolle, Sy, Damien and 2 dollar store FAs (guys like Tony Battie and Ronnie Price as an example). Let’s just hope that their back-end free agent signings are better than Josh Powell and Etan Thomas.
Section 303
November 27th, 2011
5:17 pm
Michael, any thoughts on cheap free agents the Hawks may sign? I think it’s safe to say that Damien Wilkins is coming back. So, besides him…
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
5:29 pm
Invite Allen Iverson to training camp? He has said he would come off the bench. Explosive scorer, with a sick crossover like jamal. He won’t be asking for much.. I’m just stating him because we need a cheap scorer off the bench that can fill Jamal’s role.
joBjo
November 27th, 2011
5:30 pm
Hawks are going to surprise this year. Marvin had an operation and will be the player we thought he was going to be. everybody else is older and more experienced after a good playoff run last year. A short season will be good to the Hawks as they wore down last year.
go Hawks. also I think ASG without the hockey distraction will be a better owner now. the sky’s the limit for Hawks!!!
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
6:25 pm
@ Section 303: “Michael, any thoughts on cheap free agents the Hawks may sign? I think it’s safe to say that Damien Wilkins is coming back. So, besides him…”
i think this depends on the market created by the amnesty releases. there will be some overpaid-but-productive players, many of whom will consider cheap deals for a favorable situation since they still earn their previous salary. i think this market should provide the Hawks a chance to find value.
i_am_soulstar
November 27th, 2011
7:05 pm
Still dealing with the ASG here. May as well not get too excited about potential forward movement with these guys.
Lou Hudson
November 27th, 2011
7:07 pm
48 wins and a quick exit in the playoffs. BORING! Just like the Braves, Falcons, whoever else may be an Atlanta team at any given time. BORING! Would rather not invest the time. GREAT MOVE signing JJ for all that cash. Smooth.
doc
November 27th, 2011
7:31 pm
amnesty allows the rich i.e. celts, lakers, spurs, magic, mavs, heat, bulls etc. to get richer as vets vie to get on with teams that have a legit chance at titles, we get sloppy seconds. it is going to be interesting to see how teams use amnesty. it also seems only the rich will be able to afford to drop guys and then use “new cap” space to make up the difference.
O'Brien
November 27th, 2011
7:32 pm
From the previous blog;
AJ,
I hope that the Hawks had a few extra scouts checking out the international leagues for the past few months. LD and his staff conceivably could have been over there checking out the talent considering the need to sign “fillers” on the backend of the roster..
C’mon man. Do you really think the Hawks will spend the money to send guys overseas for scouting? If anything, they will have Fran Fraschilla on speed dial to answer all their questions.
O'Brien
November 27th, 2011
7:35 pm
I think this NBA season will be sloppy. All teams will have at least one set of back to back to back games, and the playoffs will also include back to back games.
I think this will help the young teams.
Ra'mon
November 27th, 2011
8:08 pm
AJ, The Hawks were scouting great sales for Black Friday, not actual players, lol.
ryan
November 27th, 2011
8:10 pm
I hope the Hawks at least try there is a lot available that you can get for the right price that can help your team .
Ra'mon
November 27th, 2011
8:14 pm
Seriously, I could see the Hawks ATTEMPTING a Kirk H. trade (and another piece) for L. Odom in LAL. A front line of Odom, Josh, and Al would be very dynamic and interchangeable in so many different ways. Also, it would give the starting lineup THREE players who can handle the ball (3 1/2 if you include Josh’s sometimes handles). Also it would add a championship pedigree to the starting lineup. The Lakers would get great depth at the guard slot, and an expiring contract.
Gwinnett Fred
November 27th, 2011
8:23 pm
1- The ASG will not pour more money into this team – especially in a season of games cut by 20%
2- They don’t need to do anything that won’t help the cap down the line, when they will really need it for JJ
3- So just how much will Miami have to pay in luxury tax this year?
Finally, a tip of the cap to you MC, the only columnist at the AJC that follows up with readers after his original story. This is especially true for Schultz & Bradley, who will write their column, make a couple replies to readers – then after no more than an hour after their column are never heard from again!
tyler
November 27th, 2011
8:23 pm
Lou Hudson- I would take 48 wins this year all day….would be improbable that kind of season would end in an early playoff exit but you never know.
Gwinnett Fred
November 27th, 2011
8:24 pm
Follow up question:
Is Childress still in any way part of the Hawks future (either by playing for them or getting something in trade)?
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
8:25 pm
From one account of the CBA, amnesty players will enter a pool where they can be chosen based on worse-to-first records. So Rashard Lewis may well end up on the Pacers as a back-up stretch 4 before he finds his way onto a contender. Of course, since not all 30 teams are going to release players, let’s not assume that there will be enough players in the pool for the Hawks to make a selection.
bob
November 27th, 2011
8:37 pm
this is depressing…..im tired of not being able to compet for a ring….its the same teams all the time and we have no chance……i was hopeing for a hard cap so the lakers and the rest dont just buy up all the good players….
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
8:42 pm
So what you are saying is that when a team waives a player, any other team who has interest in that player does not have to pay him his original contract but a cheaper one, if they liked.
A concerned fan..
November 27th, 2011
8:49 pm
Here’s a link to see what the CBA looks like.. https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_JqVMjKAfLYNzU3YzVlNDAtMDBlOS00Y2UwLWE5ZTItM2RkZTdjN2FmMzI4&hl=en_US
cdog
November 27th, 2011
9:01 pm
IT SEEMS AS THOUGH ATLANTA HAWKS ARE CURSED. EVER SINCE I CAN REMEMBER,.EVEN DURING THE LOSING YEARS, THEY NEVER DRAFTED THE SUPERSTAR FRANCHISE PLAYER NOR HAD THE NO. 1 PICK EXCEPT WHEN THEY DRAFTED DAVID THOMPSON AND MARVIN WEBSTER BUT THE LEAGUE STEPPED IN AND PREVENTED THEM FROM SIGNING WITH THE HAWKS.JULIUS ERVING SIGNED WITH THE HAWKS AND EVEN PLAYED IN GAMES BUT AGAIN THE LEAGUE STEPPED IN AND PREVENTED HIM FROMN COMING TO ATLANTA. EVERYTIME A STAR PLAYER LEAVES THE CELTICS AND LAKERS, THE LEAGUE ALWAYS FINDS A WAY TO ADD OTHERS STAR PLAYERS DESPITE THESE TEAMS PLAYING FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP EVERY OTHER YEAR.THE LEAGUE HAS A BUNCH OF SHADDY PEOPLE RUNNING THE SHOW. TO THIS DAY, BELIEVE THE YEAR THE KNICKS GOT PATRICK EWING, IT WAS A SETUP BY THE LEAGUE.WHY WOULD YOU GO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS TO DO A LOTTERY? I GUESS IF CERTAIN TEAMS GETS THE PICK, THE CROOKS CAN SWITCH IT TO THE TEAM THEY WANT TO HAVE IT.WHATEVER IT TAKES, THE HAWKS SHOULD GET DWIGHT HOWARD TO GO ALONG WITH HORTFORD AND JOSH.THE LEAGUE WANTS DALLAS, LOS ANGELES AND BOSTON EVERY YEAR PLAYING FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP.ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY WHICH IS A SHAME
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
9:03 pm
@AJ: “From one account of the CBA, amnesty players will enter a pool where they can be chosen based on worse-to-first records.”
i haven’t seen this. do you mean the modified waiver system only available to teams under the cap?
Harold
November 27th, 2011
9:06 pm
I was really hoping that the NBA will stay locked out cause us in Atlanta don’t have anything to look forward too cause our team is terrible.
Displaced Thrashers Fan
November 27th, 2011
9:08 pm
MC,
What are your thoughts of the upcoming season and what do you think the ASG penny-pinchers are gonna do with their financial restraints?
Bob
November 27th, 2011
9:14 pm
All of this assumes that the ASG (it hurts to write that) actually has enough cash to pay those salaries. I expect to see the Hawks advertised on Craig’s List soon.
swatguy
November 27th, 2011
9:28 pm
I lean towards Astro on this and ‘Cyde. We should keep Marvin and use the MLE for a “Shannon Brown” if we can still use a low or bi to get a “Reggie Evans”. I’m unclear, can we use multiple exceptions? If we can got the first tier tax(up to 5 million) and use the exceptions and minimums for the roster. Perhaps we can get Shannon(MLE), Reggie(2.5 mle), McGraddy(bi-level). Vet minimum Damien, Benson, Twin and Sy.
Teague
Joe
McGraddy
Josh
Al
Heinrich
Shannon
Marvin
Reggie
Zaza
Damien, Sy, Twin and Benson
With a short camp and season, veteran teams with chemistry will prosper. The Hawks with it’s veteran been-together core may be elite.
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
9:38 pm
My BAD, y’all, it looks like the amnesty “equalization effort” is based on salary room (as MC previously stated) and not record. Here is the link to what I read (and made a bad interpretation).
http://www.cowbellkingdom.com/2011/11/27/nbas-tentative-labor-agreement-available/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ckingdom+%28Cowbell+Kingdom%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
ace in the hole
November 27th, 2011
9:46 pm
Why don’t the Hawks work out a trade for JJ with LA, New York or another big market team for another bad contract(s) and the other team could use the amnesty cause for instance relief. A team like New York is all about spending money, so why not give them the room to go after Chris Paul next year and the hawks could get relief from anmetsy on the player in the trade and try to work it for a draft pick or an expiring contract.
Trade Horford for Bogut + Leuer:
November 27th, 2011
10:10 pm
Trade Horford for Bogut + Leuer. plz
KevinM
November 27th, 2011
10:24 pm
Hilarious is where this blog has headed…all these ideas but does anyone remember who our owners are and who the GM is?
Facts:
1) We aren’t exceeding any salary cap….sit on that thought with the ASG in charge.
2) Jamal is gone because we can’t afford the MLE on him…and for that matter, please tell me all the guys we have signed over the years with the MLEs we have been sitting on? Never and I don’t see it happening now.
3) Get ready for what you saw at the end of the year minus Teague. I would be shocked if Sund could bring one guy here with NBA experience to come sit on our bench and maybe get a few minutes.
We go as far as JJ’s contract because we are stuck in a rut. We aren’t a contender and we aren’t bringing in new talent. We fill the rest of the roster with minimum contracts and let them try to impress our average coach.
Marvin is a shoe-in to do what Marvin does each year….I hope that extra inch he grew this year makes a difference in his game.
J.J.M.
November 27th, 2011
11:10 pm
man this is just crazy hawks will have to stick with a average team for the next 3 years
Grandad
November 27th, 2011
11:31 pm
I have not figured out all the new CBA gobbledegook just yet.
However, it seems to me, that regardless of marvin’s ineptness,
he could remain a valuable bench piece.
Then again as one looks at filling out the roster;
you’re hit by the conclusion that something / [someone]
has to go;
whether by annesty or trade ?
Seemingly, to me at least, the best short term & the best
long term solution financially is to either amnesty or trade Joe.
On the surface @ least – I’m thinking;
amnesty Joe and trade Josh.
Then sign and acquire through trade and or free agency
team oriented defensive stalwarts who rebound like their life
depends on it.
Which it [ livlihood ] really does for the new middle class
within the ” association”.
Some people will say:
“we need to keep our stars”,
to which I would reply;
heck fire we have no stars !
Get guys that play hard, play together and play to win.
Oh yeah … playing smart … that’s a good one too.
In the mean time:
i’m going to try to sift through all this new folderol.
Really
November 28th, 2011
12:26 am
The NBA is back, crap…(
Hawks Fan Down Under
November 28th, 2011
12:50 am
Amnesty Drew! He’s our biggest liability!
If he doesnt start Teague in the opening game he should be fired immediately. Oh but he’ll always be that little birdy on Teagues shoulder telling him “he can do it”
Worldwide Clyde
November 28th, 2011
1:45 am
FIRE SUND
vava74
November 28th, 2011
3:56 am
Good grief. What a bunch of complainers:
1. Our roster is WELL above average and with Teague’s emergence, we have a 3 guard rotation potentially second to none in the league ON BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR. We just need a 4th guy with some complementary skills (either a 3 point specialist or a slasher).
2. Our biggest off-season move would have been Diaper Al finding his huevos again and for him to play like a man and not like a damn girl. Even so, he is a top 25 talent in the league.
3. Hopefully, Josh will come slightly lighter and regain a bit of his lost explosiveness. Having tasted some playoff success, I think he may come with some extra motivation.
4. Jamal’s loss is a GAIN. Jamal was AWOL against CHI (with the exception of game 1). His scoring was compensated by Teague and if we had Hinrich playing behind Teague and JJ during that series, we would have taken CHI to 7 games as a minimum.
5. Filler will always be filler. We only need 8 to 9 quality players and we already have that. The rest must be used as situational bench assistance, like Collins who is priceless in the correct situations and a Reggie Evans to bring some veteran elbows and rebounding.
6. JJ will come back stronger, leaner and faster and without Jamal providing a highway to the basket every time he was on the floor, everyone we have is at least above average defenders.
7. Give Zaza more minutes and instruct him to be as brawling and aggressive as possible BUT always with a shot blocker on the floor (Smoove) along side him. Some suspensions will earn more respect as a defensive team.
8. We could be a top 5 defensive team this year.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
5:32 am
Hawks Fan Down Under
November 28th, 2011
12:50 am
Agree wholeheartedly! Sack Drew and we immediately improve.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
5:38 am
Thinking out of the box. I would hire as the next Hawks head coach…
David Blatt – Russia’s Head Coach
He has been highly successful in Europe and would bring a breath of fresh air into the Hawks team.
Alternatively, I would go for Laimbeer.
move out!
November 28th, 2011
6:38 am
the overpaid hawks will suck again–hopefully some billionaire buys the team and moves them to a new city, ASAP. Max joe johnson wants his $25 million either way!!!
Peter
November 28th, 2011
7:41 am
Watch JJ become a 13 point scorer this year, and the Hawks become what they should be 3rd tier.
The Spirit are a Joke and the JJ contract is one of the examples.
O'Brien
November 28th, 2011
7:47 am
Vava,
In addition to Josh gaining his explosiveness, I hope he loses his penchant for 3-pt shots.
The Hawks should be ne of those teams who benefit from the short season, because 1) It will be the same top 8 and HC from last year, so good or bad, there should be continuity and 2) Hawks are still a young team.
tony
November 28th, 2011
8:00 am
What the hawks should do? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Have we not learned that ASG is incapable of running a professional sports team?
Vol4ever
November 28th, 2011
9:50 am
Being a Hawks fan for over 30 years, Im taking the year off. I will check in time to time but their is NO chance the Hawks compete for the title now or ever with the fiasco in place now. I guarantee you the team will not bring anyone in that can help.
Geemack
November 28th, 2011
9:59 am
@ vava74
Agreed….Hinrich will replace Jamal’s productivity seamlessly. He is also a better option off the bench defensively.
If we bring back Collins, I say start Zaza alongside Horford and Josh.
JJ & Teague should be our starting back court. Hinrich can get 25 to 30 minutes backing up the pg & sg spots.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
10:52 am
The forecasted improvement in PG play certainly provides some reason for optimism. But I personally think that the culture doesn’t really support this team over-achieving (which is what is needed for them to advance past the 2nd round) and the likely upgrade in PG play for the next 66 games is not going to drive the core change in attitude that this team needs (nor will the continuation of LD’s coaching tenure with the Hawks). Let’s hope for an entertaining 66 games and then see what happens in the summer of 2012.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
11:27 am
OB,
That’s entering into deep wishful thinking territory.
Looking back at last year’s playoffs, my feeling is that, even with some bad shots, Josh was not a negative factor, quite the contrary.
Most of the time he brought a good effort which something which cannot said – at all – about Horford.
Horford’s lack of spunk, effort and huevos down low were far more detrimental for our playoff run than Smoove’s 9 missed 3 pointers against Chicago.
bobbyc
November 28th, 2011
11:54 am
Can’t the Hawks do a sign a trade for Chandler. Giving up Josh Smith Zaza and Ethan Thomas.
darrell starks
November 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
GeeMack i agree, I would like to see COLLINS comeback with ZAZA starting at center, please LD get this team going with no more Horford at center 4 years is a enough, if LD build this team right the Hawks could be a special team by the end of the year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 28th, 2011
1:54 pm
2011 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, ZAZA.
BENCH HINRICH, DAMIEN, MARVIN, WILCOX, COLLINS
RESERVE PAPE, HILTON ARMSTRONG
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
1:57 pm
So Shaq is now saying that he could have been a Hawk had Joe taken less money, huh? That is laughable. How many games did Shaq play last season? Maybe 45? And probably none in the last 20 games of the regular season and none in the playoffs? So I guess he is saying that he could have had his fat a$$ sitting on the bench in a suit with the Hawks instead of having his fat a$$ sitting on the bench with the Celtics in a suit.
Grandad
November 28th, 2011
2:24 pm
vava
“Most of the time he brought a good effort
which something which cannot said – at all – about Horford
Horford’s lack of spunk, effort” …
I don’t know what huevos are ?
Are they anything like nachos ?
Can you put jalapenos on them ?
Can you dip them ?
Why does Al not have them ?
Do they not sell them in the Dominican Republic ?
Back to my point:
You are being asinine;
saying Al doesn’t bring effort !
vava, If you tried to have an intelligent conversation with
10 qualified NBA authorities,
they would laugh you out of the room with your
“Diaper Al” nonsense.
By the way;
“Diaper Al” is Passe !
doc
November 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
well i do like the situation with hinrich on our team rather than bibby to start this season. would have preferred it at the start of last season when it might have cost less. durn aj wish they had listened to us last summer instead of being behind the eight ball during the season.
for all the faults of larry drew we claim for him, he saw that marvin was not starter quality and in decline, though his predecessor played him as one. sure hope marvin’s back is ready to rumble and the cause of his decline because he is clearly the x factor in our season. if he comes back strong and plays reliable minutes then we might be able to make it fun into the playoffs. if he doesnt then we are toast.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:27 pm
Shaq has been irrelevant for quite a few years already.
He could have had an incredible career but didn’t due to poor conditioning and an overall disinterest to be professional. He was one of the greatest notwithstanding that, but a far cry of what he could have been.
Kind of a Wilt mk.2.
His signing last year would have been good only on the merchandising. His p*ss poor effort in getting into game shape with the Celts, would have been monumental in comparison to what he would have done with us.
He would have been ranging the 370-380lbs the whole season, creating even worse habits in our locker room, all whilst collecting an hefty paycheck from us.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
2:42 pm
From the four-letter website:
UPDATE: According to Mark Murphy of the Boston Herald, Davis has a list of teams he would consider signing with — and the Nets are indeed on the list.
He wrote: “Two league sources confirmed that his camp targeted New Jersey, Orlando, Denver, Atlanta, Detroit and possibly New Orleans.”
Sean Deaveny of the Sporting News also tweeted this: “From what I’m told, the Celts are happy about the whole sign-and-trade issue for tax teams, because that’s the plan with Big Baby Davis.”
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:46 pm
I think the Hawks will be better…..
I think Teague, Zaza and the experience of going 6 games with the Bulls will have a positive effect on the team…
I think Zaza would have been the difference in game 5, but Drew made a bad decision to take him out.
I think Drew learned in the playoffs last year the “Defense win in the playoffs” and without Jamal on the bench we have a defensive team.
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
We need a player like “Big Baby”…
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
A fat, shot happy, undersized power forward… umm… don’t we have that position taken already?
The issue is not what Davis was worth with the Celts but what he would believe to be worth playing for the Hawks and that, I can guarantee you, is far more than what he actually can bring.
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:49 pm
I am so glad the BLOG IS BACK
)))))))
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:50 pm
I want more hustle and toughness…That is why I want Zaza to start.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
Rufus1,
I like zaza, but I think his value is coming off the bench. But for him to be effective, he needs a steady diet of 25+ minutes. Less than that he does not get amped up.
We need to be brawling and nasty. Bring Reggie Evans now and instruct Benson that the elbow is the C’s best friend (although all points out for him not having any fire in him).
kwooden
November 28th, 2011
3:04 pm
Looks like we really can’t do anything in Free Agency now, which is fine with me. I do hope though, that they are throwing every combination of players on the table to see if they can get Dwight Howard in a sign and trade. That is the only move that really makes us better than we are now to me.
I would like to see the starting lineup to be:
Jeff, Joe, Marvin, Josh, AL (the ability for this lineup to switch on defense causes most teams problems)
I think the bench should be:
Kirk, Papa, Damien, Benson, Zaza
Even though the bench is young, Benson was a four year college player and Papa has a lot of experience over seas. I’m waiting to see what both those guys can do.
GO HAWKS!!!
PMC
November 28th, 2011
3:13 pm
I’d love to hear Rick Sund in his own words, explain why Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams deserve the contracts he decided to give to them.
Especially Marvin Williams. Would have LOVED to be in that board room.
Big Dog
November 28th, 2011
3:14 pm
One for the road… the heart beat of the hawks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUCqTm3tmOc
Rod from College Park
November 28th, 2011
3:19 pm
vava74,
“4. Jamal’s loss is a GAIN. Jamal was AWOL against CHI (with the exception of game 1). His scoring was compensated by Teague and if we had Hinrich playing behind Teague and JJ during that series, we would have taken CHI to 7 games as a minimum.”
Still bashing Jamal huh. Guess what? We would have not been in the Chicago series if it were not for Jamal. He was our leading scorer in round 1 against Orlando. Maybe the Bulls, being the #1 defensive team in the league, decided that he was the only guy on our team with the scoring ability to beat them in a series besides Joe Johnson, and focused their defense on him when he was in the game. I know that’s what I would have done. Hinrich is better defensively, but can not be depended on to be healthy enough to play, and he does not have much scoring ability. The fact is without Jamal, we still will need another big time scorer on this team to take all the pressure off of Joe, because he has already proven that he can’t wear those shoes.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
3:21 pm
PMC, you do understand that someone else was in the room with Sund, right? Namely Marvin’s agent who likely had a list of other SFs who were earning around $7-8M/year while averaging less than 15/game. I’m not defending Marvin’s play as much as i am defending the notion that his contract at the time wasn’t that horrific when compared to similar players (at the time. He has clearly fallen off since then but who among us have the ability to foresee the future).
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
3:24 pm
I wonder if we can get Mike Miller if he is amnestied….
vava74
November 28th, 2011
3:27 pm
Rod,
Your are dead wrong. Jamal did have a very good series against ORL. I don’t question that.
BUT, if Teague had started that series and Hinrich was coming off bench, as it would be the normal situation if our HC head a pair in his trousers and had started that rotation midway the season, we would have won the series anyhow with Jamal playing the token minutes he deserves.
Jamal was over used and will always be overused by poor coaches. Jamal is at best a 10/15 minute player. There are tons of Jamal-replicas out there (Reggie Williams springs to mind right now).
Get him in, get him to shoot at will for short spells and then take him out. If he scores, excellent, if he doesn’t, at least his damage is limited.
Jamal SELDOM gets hot after missing his first 2/3 shots. It’s an occurrence as rare as a broken clock being right twice a day and during those extended spells he ends up giving up as many points as he scores.
You have some bball knowledge but you have proven time after time that your view is biased towards a type of player that rarely is successful.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 28th, 2011
3:30 pm
Pick Up Games!
Looks like the veteran bloggers “picked-up” right where they left off! And, boy do I enjoy the conversations, barbs and jabs. The debates are great!
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
3:37 pm
I’d sign Rashard McCants to a minimum salary and I bet he could provide a decent amount of offense off the bench. My issue with Jamal was ALWAYS his salary relative to the team’s overall payroll. It made no sense to me that 2 of the 3 highest paid players on the team played the same position. And at a 5th of the price, Flip was more valuable (value being defined as production against salary) than Jamal. I agree that we need a proven bench performer, I just hope that we don’t spend more than $3M for it… not when we are so thin in other key areas (e.g. QUALITY big man depth).
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 28th, 2011
3:53 pm
Big & Rich!
Big players that play big get paid big-time. Too bad there just aren’t enough of them to go around.
O'Brien
November 28th, 2011
4:21 pm
From day one, I thought the Hawks bid against themselves when it came to Marvin. But if they wanted to give him $7.5 mil, why turn around and also give Marvin the 5th year player option? At the very least, the last year should have been a team option.
That being said, I think Marvin and Teague are the X factors. If Teague can perform close to his Chicago playoff form (regardless of whether he starts or not), and Marvin can step up his play on offense (especially with Jamal gone), Hawks have a chance to advance past the second round.
The 2 storylines I am looking forward to (in camp), is 1) how Teague plays, and if LD decides to start him and 2) how Marvin plays, and if LD decides to start him
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
4:32 pm
OB, camp will be so short (I’m assuming) that storylines may not have time to develop. In the first dozen or so games, I will be looking to see if Horford & Smith improve from what I thought was a down year for that combination of players. And my X-Factor is PG play. Can we get around 45 minutes/game of above average play from our PG combination.
Melvin
November 28th, 2011
4:35 pm
What about a return of the Afro Man (Josh Childress) if the Suns decides to use their amnesty on him… He could return to his 6th man role and play behind Joe and Marvin.
Melvin
November 28th, 2011
4:37 pm
“RT @HowardBeckNYT: NBA teams will play 2 preseason games. Same opponent , home and home. Pairings TBD, but likely geography-based”
Per Beck tweet, sounds like the Hawks will play a home and home with the Bobcats..
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
4:47 pm
A pretty easy-to-understand summary of the new CBA from Larry Coon is attached. There is a chance (not immediately but maybe in 3+ years) that we may truly see more competitive balance in the league based on some of the new rules.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/CBA-111128/how-new-nba-deal-compares-last-one
rich
November 28th, 2011
4:48 pm
I wish they had stayed on strike
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
4:49 pm
Melvin, sign me up for a return of the Greek Fro.
Worldwide Clyde
November 28th, 2011
4:59 pm
Sign Sean Williams to the minimum
FIRE LD
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
5:09 pm
Clyde, isn’t Sean Williams in the same league now as Roy Tarpley, Chris Washburn and Charles Shackleford? I’d rather have them dust off the remnants of Dan Gadzuric.
Fundamentals
November 28th, 2011
5:11 pm
Welcome back Hawks basketball! Seems the same rants have begun again…sadly. We’ll see how well players worked to improve their game in the break. Summer rumors hinted that Teague, Smoove and Joe worked hard. Time will tell. I’m hopeing we’ll allow Teague to play PG, that Joe will be 100% and ready and that Josh will be back to his slim explosive self. Next two weeks should be exciting for all. Maybe ASG should bring TJ Max in as a corporate sponsor…giving us the “Max for the Minimum” seems to be their slogan. Either way, we got hoops, so it all can’t be as bad as folks make it seem.
Fundamentals
November 28th, 2011
5:14 pm
Would Childress even be worth a vet min? Dude really shot himself in the foot IMHO. He had a niche here and let pride destroy it. I’d say find someone else. No thanks.
terrell
November 28th, 2011
5:27 pm
How bout waiving LD?
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
5:39 pm
Joe with a “Chip”…
I hope JJ has a BIGGGGGG “CHIP” on his shoulder after he basically got blamed for the lockout.
I want a sign-n-trade with Jamal and Mike Miller….Jamal wants more than we can pay and Miller only makes 5mill a year.
Michael Cunningham
November 28th, 2011
6:03 pm
New blog is posted. Shutting down this thread.