Atlanta Hawks: No magical relief for Hawks in CBA
SI.com’s Sam Amick obtained details of the principal agreement between NBA owners and whatever-the-current-union-group-is-called. The full document is here.
It looks like the cap and tax levels will remain about the same: $58 million and $70 million, respectively. As noted previously, this doesn’t leave the Hawks much room to add salary below the tax threshold since they have about $65 million in guaranteed salary committed to seven players and must add at least six more.
There is an amnesty provision in the (tentative) deal, to be used one time over the life of the CBA (10 years, or six if either side decides to opt out). It can be used only on existing contracts and will allow 100 percent of the players’ salary to be removed for cap and tax purposes. The “stretch” provision, which would allow a waived players’ payments and cap salary to be spread out beyond the length of the contract, will be available only for new contracts.
My reading of the agreement suggests the amnesty provision may not be a significant short-term cap/tax cure for the Hawks. This is assuming it won’t be used on J.J., which seems to be a safe bet unless you believe the Hawks are willing to pay him $107 million to while he plays elsewhere over the next five years.
(An aside on that note: One element included in the deal is a “modified waiver process” that allows teams under the cap to “submit competing offers [for amnesty players] to assume some but not all of the players’ remaining contract.” However, “the remaining portion of the player’s salary will continue to be paid by the team that waived him.” It will be interesting to see that dynamic in action.)
Judging by the comments of my blog people, Tweeps and the radio interview I did yesterday, Marvin is the people’s choice to be waived under the amnesty clause. The move would reduce Atlanta’s salary commitments for 2011-12 from $65 million to about $57 million. Assuming the accounting down to the final cent comes to about that figure, Atlanta’s team salary would be just below the expected salary-cap level.
That doesn’t do much for the Hawks.
From there, they could spend what’s left of the cap room and then use the new “Mid-Level Exception for Room Teams” for teams that do so (under the old CBA, teams could either renounce free agents and use the cap room or use cap exceptions, but not both). This exception provides a first-year salary of up to $2.5 million in 2011-12 and a maximum contract length of two years. It’s available for “one or more” free agents. But teams that use it forfeit the use of the non-taxpayer MLE (with max starting salary of $5 million and up to four years) and the bi-annual exception (starting salary of $1.9 million and up to two years).
So, if I’m reading this correctly (please tell me in the comments if you think I’m missing something), the Hawks could waive Marvin under the amnesty clause, and then round out the roster using one or more of the $2.5 million exceptions and minimum-salary exceptions. Keep in mind that ASG still would be paying Marvin his $8 million salary in 2011-12 plus the salaries of the added players.
This is where ASG gets input from their basketball people and number-crunchers on a cost-benefit analysis for a future track: Should they keep Marvin for now, use part of the $5 million MLE for non-taxpayers to add a piece and then–gasp!–pay some luxury tax on the salaries added beyond those nine players?
The new rate in the first two years of the CBA is $1.50 $1 for each $1 over the threshold up to $5 million, so this path actually could end up costing ASG less than letting Marvin go and adding vets using the “room” MLE. (This obviously would cost more than letting Marvin go and then rounding out the roster on the cheap, but I won’t go there out of respect for my blog people.) The Hawks then could gain some relief under the tax threshold next season by letting Kirk Hinrich’s deal expire, leaving them with roughly $61.6 million in guaranteed salaries for six players in 2012-13.
I suppose the Hawks could choose to use the amnesty provision on Hinrich. The drawback is that, unlike with Marvin, this would provide no tax/cap relief beyond 2012-13. Hinrich also figures to be a decent trade chip. I’d also add that, no matter what you think of Hinrich, his contributions wouldn’t be as easy to replace with a cheaper player. Same thing goes for Zaza, who is making less than the full MLE anyway.
The bottom line: If ASG wants to add productive, veteran players, they are going to have to pay one way (luxury tax) or another (amnesty plus replacement salaries). The only question is how much do they want to pay.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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113 comments Add your comment
Michael Cunningham
November 27th, 2011
9:03 pm
@AJ: “From one account of the CBA, amnesty players will enter a pool where they can be chosen based on worse-to-first records.”
i haven’t seen this. do you mean the modified waiver system only available to teams under the cap?
Harold
November 27th, 2011
9:06 pm
I was really hoping that the NBA will stay locked out cause us in Atlanta don’t have anything to look forward too cause our team is terrible.
Displaced Thrashers Fan
November 27th, 2011
9:08 pm
MC,
What are your thoughts of the upcoming season and what do you think the ASG penny-pinchers are gonna do with their financial restraints?
Bob
November 27th, 2011
9:14 pm
All of this assumes that the ASG (it hurts to write that) actually has enough cash to pay those salaries. I expect to see the Hawks advertised on Craig’s List soon.
swatguy
November 27th, 2011
9:28 pm
I lean towards Astro on this and ‘Cyde. We should keep Marvin and use the MLE for a “Shannon Brown” if we can still use a low or bi to get a “Reggie Evans”. I’m unclear, can we use multiple exceptions? If we can got the first tier tax(up to 5 million) and use the exceptions and minimums for the roster. Perhaps we can get Shannon(MLE), Reggie(2.5 mle), McGraddy(bi-level). Vet minimum Damien, Benson, Twin and Sy.
Teague
Joe
McGraddy
Josh
Al
Heinrich
Shannon
Marvin
Reggie
Zaza
Damien, Sy, Twin and Benson
With a short camp and season, veteran teams with chemistry will prosper. The Hawks with it’s veteran been-together core may be elite.
Astro Joe
November 27th, 2011
9:38 pm
My BAD, y’all, it looks like the amnesty “equalization effort” is based on salary room (as MC previously stated) and not record. Here is the link to what I read (and made a bad interpretation).
http://www.cowbellkingdom.com/2011/11/27/nbas-tentative-labor-agreement-available/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ckingdom+%28Cowbell+Kingdom%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
ace in the hole
November 27th, 2011
9:46 pm
Why don’t the Hawks work out a trade for JJ with LA, New York or another big market team for another bad contract(s) and the other team could use the amnesty cause for instance relief. A team like New York is all about spending money, so why not give them the room to go after Chris Paul next year and the hawks could get relief from anmetsy on the player in the trade and try to work it for a draft pick or an expiring contract.
Trade Horford for Bogut + Leuer:
November 27th, 2011
10:10 pm
Trade Horford for Bogut + Leuer. plz
KevinM
November 27th, 2011
10:24 pm
Hilarious is where this blog has headed…all these ideas but does anyone remember who our owners are and who the GM is?
Facts:
1) We aren’t exceeding any salary cap….sit on that thought with the ASG in charge.
2) Jamal is gone because we can’t afford the MLE on him…and for that matter, please tell me all the guys we have signed over the years with the MLEs we have been sitting on? Never and I don’t see it happening now.
3) Get ready for what you saw at the end of the year minus Teague. I would be shocked if Sund could bring one guy here with NBA experience to come sit on our bench and maybe get a few minutes.
We go as far as JJ’s contract because we are stuck in a rut. We aren’t a contender and we aren’t bringing in new talent. We fill the rest of the roster with minimum contracts and let them try to impress our average coach.
Marvin is a shoe-in to do what Marvin does each year….I hope that extra inch he grew this year makes a difference in his game.
J.J.M.
November 27th, 2011
11:10 pm
man this is just crazy hawks will have to stick with a average team for the next 3 years
Grandad
November 27th, 2011
11:31 pm
I have not figured out all the new CBA gobbledegook just yet.
However, it seems to me, that regardless of marvin’s ineptness,
he could remain a valuable bench piece.
Then again as one looks at filling out the roster;
you’re hit by the conclusion that something / [someone]
has to go;
whether by annesty or trade ?
Seemingly, to me at least, the best short term & the best
long term solution financially is to either amnesty or trade Joe.
On the surface @ least – I’m thinking;
amnesty Joe and trade Josh.
Then sign and acquire through trade and or free agency
team oriented defensive stalwarts who rebound like their life
depends on it.
Which it [ livlihood ] really does for the new middle class
within the ” association”.
Some people will say:
“we need to keep our stars”,
to which I would reply;
heck fire we have no stars !
Get guys that play hard, play together and play to win.
Oh yeah … playing smart … that’s a good one too.
In the mean time:
i’m going to try to sift through all this new folderol.
Really
November 28th, 2011
12:26 am
The NBA is back, crap…(
Hawks Fan Down Under
November 28th, 2011
12:50 am
Amnesty Drew! He’s our biggest liability!
If he doesnt start Teague in the opening game he should be fired immediately. Oh but he’ll always be that little birdy on Teagues shoulder telling him “he can do it”
Worldwide Clyde
November 28th, 2011
1:45 am
FIRE SUND
vava74
November 28th, 2011
3:56 am
Good grief. What a bunch of complainers:
1. Our roster is WELL above average and with Teague’s emergence, we have a 3 guard rotation potentially second to none in the league ON BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR. We just need a 4th guy with some complementary skills (either a 3 point specialist or a slasher).
2. Our biggest off-season move would have been Diaper Al finding his huevos again and for him to play like a man and not like a damn girl. Even so, he is a top 25 talent in the league.
3. Hopefully, Josh will come slightly lighter and regain a bit of his lost explosiveness. Having tasted some playoff success, I think he may come with some extra motivation.
4. Jamal’s loss is a GAIN. Jamal was AWOL against CHI (with the exception of game 1). His scoring was compensated by Teague and if we had Hinrich playing behind Teague and JJ during that series, we would have taken CHI to 7 games as a minimum.
5. Filler will always be filler. We only need 8 to 9 quality players and we already have that. The rest must be used as situational bench assistance, like Collins who is priceless in the correct situations and a Reggie Evans to bring some veteran elbows and rebounding.
6. JJ will come back stronger, leaner and faster and without Jamal providing a highway to the basket every time he was on the floor, everyone we have is at least above average defenders.
7. Give Zaza more minutes and instruct him to be as brawling and aggressive as possible BUT always with a shot blocker on the floor (Smoove) along side him. Some suspensions will earn more respect as a defensive team.
8. We could be a top 5 defensive team this year.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
5:32 am
Hawks Fan Down Under
November 28th, 2011
12:50 am
Agree wholeheartedly! Sack Drew and we immediately improve.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
5:38 am
Thinking out of the box. I would hire as the next Hawks head coach…
David Blatt – Russia’s Head Coach
He has been highly successful in Europe and would bring a breath of fresh air into the Hawks team.
Alternatively, I would go for Laimbeer.
move out!
November 28th, 2011
6:38 am
the overpaid hawks will suck again–hopefully some billionaire buys the team and moves them to a new city, ASAP. Max joe johnson wants his $25 million either way!!!
Peter
November 28th, 2011
7:41 am
Watch JJ become a 13 point scorer this year, and the Hawks become what they should be 3rd tier.
The Spirit are a Joke and the JJ contract is one of the examples.
O'Brien
November 28th, 2011
7:47 am
Vava,
In addition to Josh gaining his explosiveness, I hope he loses his penchant for 3-pt shots.
The Hawks should be ne of those teams who benefit from the short season, because 1) It will be the same top 8 and HC from last year, so good or bad, there should be continuity and 2) Hawks are still a young team.
tony
November 28th, 2011
8:00 am
What the hawks should do? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Have we not learned that ASG is incapable of running a professional sports team?
Vol4ever
November 28th, 2011
9:50 am
Being a Hawks fan for over 30 years, Im taking the year off. I will check in time to time but their is NO chance the Hawks compete for the title now or ever with the fiasco in place now. I guarantee you the team will not bring anyone in that can help.
Geemack
November 28th, 2011
9:59 am
@ vava74
Agreed….Hinrich will replace Jamal’s productivity seamlessly. He is also a better option off the bench defensively.
If we bring back Collins, I say start Zaza alongside Horford and Josh.
JJ & Teague should be our starting back court. Hinrich can get 25 to 30 minutes backing up the pg & sg spots.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
10:52 am
The forecasted improvement in PG play certainly provides some reason for optimism. But I personally think that the culture doesn’t really support this team over-achieving (which is what is needed for them to advance past the 2nd round) and the likely upgrade in PG play for the next 66 games is not going to drive the core change in attitude that this team needs (nor will the continuation of LD’s coaching tenure with the Hawks). Let’s hope for an entertaining 66 games and then see what happens in the summer of 2012.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
11:27 am
OB,
That’s entering into deep wishful thinking territory.
Looking back at last year’s playoffs, my feeling is that, even with some bad shots, Josh was not a negative factor, quite the contrary.
Most of the time he brought a good effort which something which cannot said – at all – about Horford.
Horford’s lack of spunk, effort and huevos down low were far more detrimental for our playoff run than Smoove’s 9 missed 3 pointers against Chicago.
bobbyc
November 28th, 2011
11:54 am
Can’t the Hawks do a sign a trade for Chandler. Giving up Josh Smith Zaza and Ethan Thomas.
darrell starks
November 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
GeeMack i agree, I would like to see COLLINS comeback with ZAZA starting at center, please LD get this team going with no more Horford at center 4 years is a enough, if LD build this team right the Hawks could be a special team by the end of the year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 28th, 2011
1:54 pm
2011 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, ZAZA.
BENCH HINRICH, DAMIEN, MARVIN, WILCOX, COLLINS
RESERVE PAPE, HILTON ARMSTRONG
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
1:57 pm
So Shaq is now saying that he could have been a Hawk had Joe taken less money, huh? That is laughable. How many games did Shaq play last season? Maybe 45? And probably none in the last 20 games of the regular season and none in the playoffs? So I guess he is saying that he could have had his fat a$$ sitting on the bench in a suit with the Hawks instead of having his fat a$$ sitting on the bench with the Celtics in a suit.
Grandad
November 28th, 2011
2:24 pm
vava
“Most of the time he brought a good effort
which something which cannot said – at all – about Horford
Horford’s lack of spunk, effort” …
I don’t know what huevos are ?
Are they anything like nachos ?
Can you put jalapenos on them ?
Can you dip them ?
Why does Al not have them ?
Do they not sell them in the Dominican Republic ?
Back to my point:
You are being asinine;
saying Al doesn’t bring effort !
vava, If you tried to have an intelligent conversation with
10 qualified NBA authorities,
they would laugh you out of the room with your
“Diaper Al” nonsense.
By the way;
“Diaper Al” is Passe !
doc
November 28th, 2011
2:25 pm
well i do like the situation with hinrich on our team rather than bibby to start this season. would have preferred it at the start of last season when it might have cost less. durn aj wish they had listened to us last summer instead of being behind the eight ball during the season.
for all the faults of larry drew we claim for him, he saw that marvin was not starter quality and in decline, though his predecessor played him as one. sure hope marvin’s back is ready to rumble and the cause of his decline because he is clearly the x factor in our season. if he comes back strong and plays reliable minutes then we might be able to make it fun into the playoffs. if he doesnt then we are toast.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:27 pm
Shaq has been irrelevant for quite a few years already.
He could have had an incredible career but didn’t due to poor conditioning and an overall disinterest to be professional. He was one of the greatest notwithstanding that, but a far cry of what he could have been.
Kind of a Wilt mk.2.
His signing last year would have been good only on the merchandising. His p*ss poor effort in getting into game shape with the Celts, would have been monumental in comparison to what he would have done with us.
He would have been ranging the 370-380lbs the whole season, creating even worse habits in our locker room, all whilst collecting an hefty paycheck from us.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
2:42 pm
From the four-letter website:
UPDATE: According to Mark Murphy of the Boston Herald, Davis has a list of teams he would consider signing with — and the Nets are indeed on the list.
He wrote: “Two league sources confirmed that his camp targeted New Jersey, Orlando, Denver, Atlanta, Detroit and possibly New Orleans.”
Sean Deaveny of the Sporting News also tweeted this: “From what I’m told, the Celts are happy about the whole sign-and-trade issue for tax teams, because that’s the plan with Big Baby Davis.”
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:46 pm
I think the Hawks will be better…..
I think Teague, Zaza and the experience of going 6 games with the Bulls will have a positive effect on the team…
I think Zaza would have been the difference in game 5, but Drew made a bad decision to take him out.
I think Drew learned in the playoffs last year the “Defense win in the playoffs” and without Jamal on the bench we have a defensive team.
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
We need a player like “Big Baby”…
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:48 pm
A fat, shot happy, undersized power forward… umm… don’t we have that position taken already?
The issue is not what Davis was worth with the Celts but what he would believe to be worth playing for the Hawks and that, I can guarantee you, is far more than what he actually can bring.
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:49 pm
I am so glad the BLOG IS BACK
)))))))
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
2:50 pm
I want more hustle and toughness…That is why I want Zaza to start.
vava74
November 28th, 2011
2:55 pm
Rufus1,
I like zaza, but I think his value is coming off the bench. But for him to be effective, he needs a steady diet of 25+ minutes. Less than that he does not get amped up.
We need to be brawling and nasty. Bring Reggie Evans now and instruct Benson that the elbow is the C’s best friend (although all points out for him not having any fire in him).
kwooden
November 28th, 2011
3:04 pm
Looks like we really can’t do anything in Free Agency now, which is fine with me. I do hope though, that they are throwing every combination of players on the table to see if they can get Dwight Howard in a sign and trade. That is the only move that really makes us better than we are now to me.
I would like to see the starting lineup to be:
Jeff, Joe, Marvin, Josh, AL (the ability for this lineup to switch on defense causes most teams problems)
I think the bench should be:
Kirk, Papa, Damien, Benson, Zaza
Even though the bench is young, Benson was a four year college player and Papa has a lot of experience over seas. I’m waiting to see what both those guys can do.
GO HAWKS!!!
PMC
November 28th, 2011
3:13 pm
I’d love to hear Rick Sund in his own words, explain why Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams deserve the contracts he decided to give to them.
Especially Marvin Williams. Would have LOVED to be in that board room.
Big Dog
November 28th, 2011
3:14 pm
One for the road… the heart beat of the hawks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUCqTm3tmOc
Rod from College Park
November 28th, 2011
3:19 pm
vava74,
“4. Jamal’s loss is a GAIN. Jamal was AWOL against CHI (with the exception of game 1). His scoring was compensated by Teague and if we had Hinrich playing behind Teague and JJ during that series, we would have taken CHI to 7 games as a minimum.”
Still bashing Jamal huh. Guess what? We would have not been in the Chicago series if it were not for Jamal. He was our leading scorer in round 1 against Orlando. Maybe the Bulls, being the #1 defensive team in the league, decided that he was the only guy on our team with the scoring ability to beat them in a series besides Joe Johnson, and focused their defense on him when he was in the game. I know that’s what I would have done. Hinrich is better defensively, but can not be depended on to be healthy enough to play, and he does not have much scoring ability. The fact is without Jamal, we still will need another big time scorer on this team to take all the pressure off of Joe, because he has already proven that he can’t wear those shoes.
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
3:21 pm
PMC, you do understand that someone else was in the room with Sund, right? Namely Marvin’s agent who likely had a list of other SFs who were earning around $7-8M/year while averaging less than 15/game. I’m not defending Marvin’s play as much as i am defending the notion that his contract at the time wasn’t that horrific when compared to similar players (at the time. He has clearly fallen off since then but who among us have the ability to foresee the future).
Rufus1
November 28th, 2011
3:24 pm
I wonder if we can get Mike Miller if he is amnestied….
vava74
November 28th, 2011
3:27 pm
Rod,
Your are dead wrong. Jamal did have a very good series against ORL. I don’t question that.
BUT, if Teague had started that series and Hinrich was coming off bench, as it would be the normal situation if our HC head a pair in his trousers and had started that rotation midway the season, we would have won the series anyhow with Jamal playing the token minutes he deserves.
Jamal was over used and will always be overused by poor coaches. Jamal is at best a 10/15 minute player. There are tons of Jamal-replicas out there (Reggie Williams springs to mind right now).
Get him in, get him to shoot at will for short spells and then take him out. If he scores, excellent, if he doesn’t, at least his damage is limited.
Jamal SELDOM gets hot after missing his first 2/3 shots. It’s an occurrence as rare as a broken clock being right twice a day and during those extended spells he ends up giving up as many points as he scores.
You have some bball knowledge but you have proven time after time that your view is biased towards a type of player that rarely is successful.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 28th, 2011
3:30 pm
Pick Up Games!
Looks like the veteran bloggers “picked-up” right where they left off! And, boy do I enjoy the conversations, barbs and jabs. The debates are great!
Astro Joe
November 28th, 2011
3:37 pm
I’d sign Rashard McCants to a minimum salary and I bet he could provide a decent amount of offense off the bench. My issue with Jamal was ALWAYS his salary relative to the team’s overall payroll. It made no sense to me that 2 of the 3 highest paid players on the team played the same position. And at a 5th of the price, Flip was more valuable (value being defined as production against salary) than Jamal. I agree that we need a proven bench performer, I just hope that we don’t spend more than $3M for it… not when we are so thin in other key areas (e.g. QUALITY big man depth).
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 28th, 2011
3:53 pm
Big & Rich!
Big players that play big get paid big-time. Too bad there just aren’t enough of them to go around.
O'Brien
November 28th, 2011
4:21 pm
From day one, I thought the Hawks bid against themselves when it came to Marvin. But if they wanted to give him $7.5 mil, why turn around and also give Marvin the 5th year player option? At the very least, the last year should have been a team option.
That being said, I think Marvin and Teague are the X factors. If Teague can perform close to his Chicago playoff form (regardless of whether he starts or not), and Marvin can step up his play on offense (especially with Jamal gone), Hawks have a chance to advance past the second round.
The 2 storylines I am looking forward to (in camp), is 1) how Teague plays, and if LD decides to start him and 2) how Marvin plays, and if LD decides to start him