Atlanta Hawks: Labor fight heads to courtroom as season in jeopardy
(3:40 p.m. update: David Stern speaks, Billy Hunter says season probably lost.)
NBA players got David Stern’s memo and dragged it to the trash bin.
Not only did the NBPA not send the owners’ latest offer to a vote of the full membership, the executive committee and the 30 player reps unanimously rejected the proposal and filed a “disclaimer of interest” that renounces the union’s interest in representing players in bargaining with the league. Billy Hunter said the next stop is a federal courtroom, where individual players will file antitrust suits against owners.
At a press conference following the union meeting, Hunter said “the collective bargaining process has completely broken down.” Later on NBA TV Hunter said: “It’s a high probability rather than possibility” that the 2011-12 season is lost.
Later on SportsCenter, Stern blasted union leadership for what he called a “sham” strategy, said the move is “really irresponsible given the timing of it” and predicted a “nuclear winter of the NBA.”
“It’s OK to do when you haven’t lost a game, but to do it now, the union is ratcheting it up to, I guess, see if they can scare the NBA owners into something,” Stern said. “That’s not happening. What they’ve done is destroy incredible value that otherwise would have gone to union membership.”
It seems some players also are questioning why the union waited until now to take such a drastic step, especially since Hunter and Derk Fisher have said all along that they didn’t think owners would ever present a deal players would accept. Deron Williams went to Twitter to vent on the union’s strategy:
“This is why I said we should have done this in July bc at least the process would have been underway… even over! Now possibly #NOSEASON”
Since Stern already had already said the owners are done negotiating–and noted today that there now is no union with which to negotiate–this means the season is in jeopardy as the two sides fight it out in court. Once players file the suit, we will see if owners follow through with Stern’s threat to void all existing contracts.
Gabriel A. Feldman, the director of the Tulane Sports Law Program, offered a good primer on the legal ramifications of the union’s move:
Assuming the mere threat of decertification/litigation is not enough to move the owners, the NBPA could (while the players are waiting for the decertification election) disclaim interest in representing the players. Disclaimer would permit the players to file their antitrust suit immediately. The NBA owners would argue that any such lawsuit must be heard in NY, so the players could either file in NY (unlikely) or file in another jurisdiction and engage in a legal battle to allow them to choose where the case is heard (more likely).
Stern has said all along that disclaimer/decertification is a losing strategy for players, citing the suit lost by NFL players last summer when they went the disclaimer route. On SportsCenter today he called the union’s tactic a “magical trick” that won’t succeed.
(The union has retained litigator David Boies, who represented the NFL in that case. Can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em?)
But Feldman explains why the NFL case doesn’t necessarily mean NBA players will lose in court:
The ruling in Brady [vs. NFL] obviously favors the NBA owners, but the NBA players may still have success in court for at least a few reasons. First, only courts within the Eighth Circuit are bound by Brady, and it is a virtual certainty that any antitrust suit brought by the NBA players would not be filed in a court within the Eighth Circuit (the NBA filed its preemptory legal action in NY, and the players would likely file their suit in an employee-friendly jurisdiction like California).
Second, let’s be clear as to what the Eight Circuit decided in the Brady case. The NFL players argued that the NFL lockout was illegal and asked for 2 things–an injunction and damages. The district court preliminarily concluded that the lockout was illegal and granted the injunction. The Eighth Circuit reversed, narrowly holding that the Norris-LaGuardia Act prevents federal courts from enjoining lockouts. The court did not conclude that the lockout was illegal and did not conclude that the players were not entitled to bring their antitrust claim. So, even if a court was bound by Brady, it could still determine that the players are able to bring a post-dissolution antitrust suit challenging the lockout, and that the lockout was illegal. In other words, Brady does not prevent the NBA players from dissolving their union and bringing a successful antitrust suit for three-times damages.
Third, decertification (as opposed to disclaimer) may give the NBA players a more powerful argument in court. In Brady, the NFL argued that the NFLPA’s disclaimer of interest was a sham, in part, because it “lack[ed] the formality of decertification” and was “literally a paper-thin statement, issued unilaterally by a union, that may readily be overturned.” The formality of the decertification process could thus weigh in the NBA players’ favor.
Sorry to bog down my blog people with a bunch of legalese but, sadly, that’s where we are. I will update here after Stern speaks.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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315 comments Add your comment
ILL-Logical
November 16th, 2011
7:47 pm
There appears to be a great deal of Schadenfreude on this site.
Blast
November 16th, 2011
8:04 pm
Sad, sad day in basketball land, folks. Possibly no NBA season, and the dang ASG are still in town? WTF?
I am so amused by those basketball ‘fans’ who claimed they do not give a hoot for the NBA, yet still find time to read the blog and post comments? Folks, if I didn’t care for something, then I don’t even go near it. I don’t have time to waste like that. Get a life!
The people I feel really sorry for are the blue collar workers that depend on the NBA for a livelihood. Unemployment is high enough in the USA, now we are going to dump thousands more jobless folks because THE NBA and it’s players are just a bunch of greedy goats who just wants more and more and more?
I take the players stance on this one. They have given up enough. They did not ask the owners to give bloated contracts to players that are not worth it. Gilbert Arenas, Hedo the Turk, Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson, Speedy Claxton etc. None of these folks deserve the kind of $$ they are making. Blame the owners for that.
Blast
November 16th, 2011
8:10 pm
Penn State.
It’s one thing to be homosexual, but it’s a whole different ball game to sexually predate on kids. Kids put in your trust should be held sacred. Pedophilles, I can guarrantee you this. Satan has a special place waiting for you beside him in hell!!!!!!
Who Cares
November 16th, 2011
10:12 pm
Every body knows that. Where Fat asss ? Mary D, Im horny
Who Cares
November 16th, 2011
10:13 pm
A man raping a boy is an homosexual, perverted, child abusing act. But its first, homosexual.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 16th, 2011
10:38 pm
Eat Your Vegetables!
As if the day couldn’t get any worse, congress declared “Pizza” is a vegetable. Several weeks ago, Mitt Romney said corporations are “People”.
And, that is the world we live in. I guess we can assume, The ASKG are a “Real” NBA ownership group – if we follow such logic.
Sad thing is even beyond the lock out of the NBPA, we Hawk fans will still have to deal with an unbalanced roster and incompetent owners. We’ll be lucky to ever see another Round 2 appearance, is my thinking.
So, will Dwight be an UFA if we lose this season? Either way, I’m sure he would not choose to play for The ASKG.
Oh well.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 16th, 2011
11:02 pm
Tenancy!
“Ok hold up, that’s where you lost me. You do realize that the owners only put up a fraction of the cost for new arena construction, right? ” -My Buddy-
____________________
I believe these NBA teams sign 99 Year leases. Phillips Arena was one of the three properties that the ASKG held, along with The Thrashers and The Hawks!
Wasn’t the gist of the most recent lawsuit against The ASKG legal group that: the three entities were unable to be divided and sold separately? Also, I believe those municipal bonds have scheduled balloon payments along the repayment process. That money has to be accounted for and escrowed monthly – I’m sure. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m just shooting from the hip based on common logic.
I hope everyone finds common ground, so we can all watch pro basketball soon. I don’t care about all the shenanigans. Just play ball – right?
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
12:48 am
1. Someone earlier mentioned “Winning Culture”
Any way you slice it / WC begins with the owner !
2. Draft has been discussed on many sites:
Procedure has not yet been determined.
3. doc – copy your post – if blog monster eats it;
paste it back on;
look it over, change a word, punctuation, etc.
Najeh says never say dickridulous (the right way)
try again. / It has worked for me.
4. for Najeh and vava:
Are players labor & product ?
-or-
Are the coaches, trainers, front office, janitors, vendors,
floor-sweepers, ticket takers, promotion dept, clock operators,
referees, video crew, commode cleaners, jock washers, team chef, et al,
labor ?
-and-
As you said; Players are the entertainment / product ?
4. Sanduski:
- Presumed Innocent Until Proven guilty -
The last time I checked he / we live in the USA.
*[not trial by espn]
Preponderence of evidence says he’s guilty – right ?
Wrong – the only evidence that you / we know about
is what the media has let you hear or read.
*Further – Joe Pa – has not been accused of *any crime* !
“I don’t give a damnation what financial planning this 80 yr old man did in June”
And the Big 10, 11, 12 can suck eggs for takin’ his name off the trophy.
When and if Sanduski is found guilty then fine !
When and if Joe Pa is even “accused of a crime” then fine !
Until then … I still live in this here US of A !
northcyde
November 17th, 2011
3:03 am
From Najeh:
“To be clear, I am not necessarily saying a player-run league would work. I am just saying that the owners’ contribution to “packaging” the product is minimal, and the owners are a lot more replaceable than the players are. The credit for packaging the product lies primarily in David Stern’s hands, and saying the owners deserve a larger piece of the pie for packaging the product is giving credit to the wrong people. I mean really, what exactly does the DASG do to promote the Hawks that anyone on this blog couldn’t do better?”
*************************
LOL . . . perfectly explained. As an outsider of Atlanta, one of the big things that hurt me was when the Hawks went from having games broadcasted on 750 AM ( which on a clear night can be heard damn near all over the Southeast ), to 680 AM ( a station that can barely be heard 20 from the broadcast station ).
While I have gone on my rants about the fans not showing up like they should to Hawks games, I did have to admit that the ASG marketed this team very poorly around ATL. Weak radio station to carry games . . weak advertising all around . . refused to market even its most popular players, instead, opted to market superstars and teams coming into ATL to try to get fans to go to games.
About the owners do of significance, is write the checks ( which is very significant ). But even that doesn’t get done if it wasn’t for the players generating part of the revenue to have the check written.
People bet not get this twisted. IF the NBA superstars all decided to go to Europe and Asia to play basketball, the European and Asian leagues would flat out EXPLODE in popularity, while the NBA would slowly DIE. And that would be because the league could no longer boast that they have the best players in the world playing in it.
vava74
November 17th, 2011
6:01 am
Najeh and Nothcyde,
It is obvious that if ALL the NBA players decided to play elsewhere, the NBA would die.
That a “La Palice truth” (self evident).
The issue is that there is NO other organization able to concentrate the talent AND the pay the earnings of the NBA players.
Not in China, not in Europe, not in Mars.
People simply do not understand that, although popular globally, the game of basketball is nothing in comparison with football (soccer) in terms of popularity and ability to draw spectators (both in arenas AND in on TV).
And on football, where wages are incredibly high, the harsh facts is that most clubs (franchises) are heavily in debts.
Just for your information, the three main football clubs in Portugal, a tiny country, with good talent pool, a substantial love for the game, but low attendance and low income from TV rights, making the clubs dependant from playing in the European Champions League where money for participation and for points/winning is substantial – just in Portugal and on the 3 main clubs/franchises the cumulative debt level has reached EUR 350 million!!! And here we are the tip of the iceberg.
Consequently, the NBA can only be replaced WITHIN the USA.
Olympiakos gave a huge contract to Childress, Besiktas gave a huge contract to Williams, …
But HUGE only in terms of “outside the USA” and as exceptional situations with no other players earning that kind of money.
There is absolutely no possibility of any organization setting up a structure with sufficient revenue stream to absorb the (30 x 60 million*) x 2 per year that the NBA generates in order to pay the players like they do now**.
* roughly the cap
** the division of BRI in roughly 50/50 means that the NBA generates 2x the cap x 30 franchises per year in order to brake even
AT BEST, and I am already stretching, you could find the money to set up 10 teams at 50% salaries (in comparison with the NBA).
That would leave 2/3rds of the NBA players standing in the sidelines with their hands out stretched as beggars.
Note:
Nothing that I have mentioned above or yesterday means that I am siding with the Owners, merely that IMO the previous CBA was not good enough to withstand a bad economic patch like the one we are experiencing and consequently the Owners are looking to protect themselves better, against themselves and against an economic downturn.
You should not disregard the possibility that the coming years will continue to be economically harsh and that consequently endorsements, attendance, … will all go down.
With that possibility in mind, it may be very difficult for franchises to actually break even under straightforward accountancy practices (without the use of player depreciation/replacement as a cost).
Yes, the are billionaires, but most billionaires behave just like everyone else: the level of money you have seldom influences your generosity level.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 17th, 2011
6:22 am
WMD!
“. Sanduski:
- Presumed Innocent Until Proven guilty -
The last time I checked he / we live in the USA.
*[not trial by espn]
Preponderence of evidence says he’s guilty – right ?
Wrong – the only evidence that you / we know about
is what the media has let you hear or read.
*Further – Joe Pa – has not been accused of *any crime* !
“I don’t give a damnation what financial planning this 80 yr old man did in June”
And the Big 10, 11, 12 can suck eggs for takin’ his name off the trophy.
When and if Sanduski is found guilty then fine !
When and if Joe Pa is even “accused of a crime” then fine !
Until then … I still live in this here US of A !” -Grandaddy-
_____________________
Yeah … OK, and there are Weapons od Mass Destruction in Iraq too. So, based on the logic, the whole Penn State saga was a made up story and kids are crying “wolf”, people are being fired for no reason and heads are rolling up a hill.
LOL!
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 17th, 2011
6:34 am
IED’s!
G-Daddy, the only thing blowing up in the mine field of Perp-State is the “Truth” of a 13 year cover up!
Ka Boom! Pow! Blast! LOL @ You, but, you’re still my sweet ole’ “Grand Pa” (no pun intended)
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 17th, 2011
6:36 am
To Kill a Mocking Bird!
Don’t hate the Messenger – Hate the Crime!
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
7:00 am
Mary Ellen sweet darlin’;
I do hate the crime.
The folks in pennsylvania can’t even agree what “red head ”
McQueary said and to whom.
Polilice, Penn St. Admin., TV reporters, Joe Pa , DA,
heck McQueary can’t keep his story straight.
All I’m sayin’ is let’s not start firin’ people,
takin’ names off trophies, having Sarah Palin come down here
with her rope and start hangin’ folks, -until- we -know-
-all- the facts !
Seems to me thats what they used to do in Russia.
And I don’t want espn and or Sarah Palin being my
jury and judge for nuthin’ !
Plus, your right we went to war for them WMD’s and
spent a google-plex of $ searching for ‘em and they ain’t
& never wuz there.
Now look what you did – you went and got me started.
-Presumed Innocent Until Proven Guilty-
Joe Pa was not even accused of any crime.
McQueary will be found to be a liar.
There’s more to this mess than we know.
Somebody is a fall guy.
What if, What if, … Sandusky is innocent ?
That has to be considered.
Until a Jury Convicts Him.
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
7:04 am
Everyone needs to go to espn;
Bill Simmons Page 2
Podcast.
Talking about the lockout !
Great Great info !
It lasts about an hour – really good listening + informative.
vava74
November 17th, 2011
7:08 am
Grandad,
Sandusky already admitted that she showered with kids and liked being around kids.
He hesitated – before denying – that he was attracted to kids.
The presumption of innocence in this case is merely a procedural legality. The guy is absolutely guilty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkR0DDNmit0
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 17th, 2011
7:19 am
Smoke, Fire & Mirrors!
Grnad-Daddy, one thing is undisputed: there is a LOT of smoke here to say there is no Fire. The mirrors remind me of a Fun Room at the Carnival. I can’t tell where all the people are coming from.
Barring all the talking heads, there is a big ole’ hot fish stinking up the room. Now, one might say, “I don’t see a fish!” But, my friend, the stench is undeniable.
Innocent until proven Guilty is about as much an oxy-moron as Lady Justice is Blind. Just look at the disproportionate number of minorities incarcerated versus those who are not. I’m just sayin’ – this Perp-State story is real! A Real fine mess! A National disaster!
I’m sure there is plently of blame to go around. Ask, Ray Gricar the former DA. Oops! He disappeared and is presumed dead already.
vava74
November 17th, 2011
7:59 am
Also, to be perfectly honest and frank (being a father of 2 small children):
Sandusky is the LEAST GUILT of all parties involved.
Sandusky is obviously a mentally ill individual. He can’t help it and we have to look at it as it is.
He obviously belongs in jail or under a extreme surveillance/medication regime to curb his monstrous yearnings but he is clearly does not possess the self control to make his actions fully conscious and in free will.
The people that covered it up are NOT mentally ill. They are only a mix of greedy/self absorbed pricks who thought that Penn State’s football programme (or simply money, in the cases where the cover up may have been obtained with $$) was too precious to be tainted with the disclosure of these horrible actions.
Sandusky acted out of a personal mental imbalance, others looked away or covered up after intellectually making their own choice of what was more deserving or protection: the children or Penn State.
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
8:20 am
vava & Mary Ellen
Yawl are both missing my point.
I’m not saying Sandusky is innocent.
” But what if, just what if he is ? ”
vava – you cannot convict anyone because they hesitate.
Okay, so he showered with kids, charge him with ______________?
My point is you must let it play out.
Joe Pa has already been punished. Punished !
Punished, smeared, raked over the coals, legacy destroyed;
And He hasn’t Even Been Charged With A Crime !
Don’t you get it ?
They have already punished one man for a crime …
that another man has been charged with …
and he [Sandusky the accused] hasn’t even gone to trial yet.
Where’s the logic ?
Mary Ellen – you brought up the race card;
“Just look at the disproportionate number of minorities
incarcerated versus those who are not”
how much worse would it be if this country did not:
“presume innocence until proven guilty”.
We must preserve that concept … Plus …
-Guilt-
(a) the Burden of Proof is on the Prosecutor
-Must be Proven-
(b) Beyond a Reasonable Doubt to a Moral Certainty
This is The American Judicial System.
Preserved by The “Bill of Rights”
ILL-Logical
November 17th, 2011
8:23 am
A third possible outcome of the current NBA situation is the formation of a “new” league comprised of the owners of the profitable teams/ markets; the top 200+ players , the networks,ie ESPN,Turner, and some international consumer product corporations. The “new” league woud be developed because,in part, of the litigation from not only the current players(and their agents) but from potential players such as current college or high school players and their “representitives”.
The basis for their actions would be restraint of trade under several federal statutes. In short, the argument would be that even if the NBA had the right to collude among and between different teams as a function of the operation of an international professional sports league, they cannot collude to perform an illegal act,viz, restraining the workers rights for its profit.
This type of litigation is both lengthy and costly. The parties at interest with the most to gain such as the big market teams and their stars,agents and sponsers could move to form an operation that would be very similar to the NBA only smaller and more exciting. A 14 team league would have stars on every team; the best coaches and a more digestable schedule,say 60 games. With the removal of the weak , the strong would survive.
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
8:27 am
I have Three grown children and two young granchildren.
My position on this has nothing to do with whether or not
I love my children and grandchildren.
Grandad
November 17th, 2011
8:37 am
The NBA lockout is now a pissin’ contest.
The labor deal is done.
All they have to do is capitulate and sign the blasted thing.
The players need to save face a little bit.
since the owners won & ran up the score,
plus the owners pressed the whole time and
never took out their starters.
Owners need to let the players “save face”
for public relations and get this thing moving.
That’s all it is now … perception !
doc
November 17th, 2011
9:37 am
actually vava here in the states it is very hard to go after sex offenders and the worst kind, folks within your own family which there are a lot more of than the sandusky’s of the world and others that may be close or certainly have more bucks in the long run.
for example, i know of a very educated woman after a divorce finding out about some very indiscreet language and touches from her former husband on their daughter, then about 15. first of all trying to find out where to get the social and legal assistance was a murky and tenuous foggy trail where no agency wanted to take the accountability. it took winding her way through three different court municipal systems and legal agencies. she also had legal aide but the former husband was a lawyer and would have had deep pockets to defend himself, whereas, she didnt get the good payout to be on at least equal footing at the divorce and was left with little. she was shocked at both the attitude towards her and the maize in which she had to travel but she didnt give up but wondered what happens to those of less means and education and mobility.
the kicker and where she did call a halt to it was where the courts would have put the daughter on the stand in front of her dad to make the accusations and it could not be done through an intermediary event like a legal document of the accusation taken into court. i guess one could say they have enabled him but the protection is for the victim in these cases as much similar as in rape cases, the same system supports perpetrators ala big ben of the steelers. it pretty much destoryed the girl and ben is now rich and happily moving on being supported by his posse made up of policemen making sure all the evidence was cleaned up after him. this was just as disgusting as sandusky but because it was an older young girl not even out of college in the wrong place she became guilty not he.
in this case, they handled it by taking her out of the situation in other words no more contact with the father, which the girl could do as a choice as she was of age to decide. the problem at times is an imbalance of wealth and power and that sometimes wins, when justice doesnt take the right action. the integrity of the courts and institutions is at question here not individual action from the catholic church to the penn state situation to the local governments cash strapped with disempowered people due to political shenanigans behind the scenes with politicians, lawyers and judges not doing the right things, too.
sometimes all you can do is remove yourself from the situation and move on which is what they decided to do as the consequences emotionally and physically to the girl which are already great might be near impossible to overcome. until you have been there or seen it up close then hold judgement on others and their guilt. sandusky is the guilty party and should be held responsible just as big ben should have and let the investigations go on without interferences which will be many. ultimately the penn state authorities are going to pay reparations because of the neglect within the administrative structure in this situation. also when that appears to be the likely outcome there will be more folks coming out of the woodwork to accuse sandusky as well.
the only true inequality is in political power and economic power and a soild education that is more and more imbalanced until people wake up and insist on children getting an education not a facsimile. this should be the concern of minorities and disempowered rather than handouts, sorry. also this same group has to demand equal voice in how things are run, in other words more transparency to government and what actions it takes. there should be more options for the community to see what really goes on.
oldmike
November 17th, 2011
10:43 am
Ian Thomson made the following point in his article today on SI.com:
So here the NBA finds itself today, with back-room owners who don’t respect the players as a group, and players who, for lack of any better option at this late date, have put their faith in lawyers and an unprecedented lawsuit, which, if ultimately successful, would bankrupt the owners and put the NBA out of business.
Seems like a flawed process (lawsuits/ultimatums) at the very least. The lack of cohesion on both sides is disastrous.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 17th, 2011
11:02 am
I am sorry, but there is literally no reason why a grown man should be showering with young boys. Hard to presume innocence after that.
Also, pedophilia may or may not be a mental illness but it is not one that defeats self-control. I like Jada Fire but that doesn’t mean I am going to rape her if I see her. Mental illness is no excuse for what Sandusky did. He should have kept his dick in his pants and used his imagination on his own time if that’s what he liked.
doc
November 17th, 2011
11:20 am
as far as the nba, is there anyone sane there?
vava74
November 17th, 2011
12:13 pm
Najeh,
Absence of self control in a situation like this is a mental disorder. Sickening, but an illness nevertheless.
Everyone else made a conscious choice to participate in a cover up in order to protect a multi million dollar football programme so they would not jeopardize their stake in it.
The school dismissed him from the football programme but still gave him a physical base on campus.
A guiltier choice/behaviour than Sandusky’s IMO.
doc
November 17th, 2011
12:13 pm
ncaa has accidentally left up sensitive info on its financial picture for 2008 and a stunning 650 mil dollar income including 350 invested in equities. can i buy some of this stock. check it out on yahoo for more.
yes, i would love to see the real firgures these guys bring in. when will stern look them in the eye and say do you really know where this is going and if we lose you guys are paupers potentially ay risk for again what 9 bil?
doc
November 17th, 2011
12:40 pm
i will try again but many posts were lost recently trying to do so and never recovered by MC:
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/ncaa-unintentionally-leaks-hidden-financial-secrets
doc
November 17th, 2011
12:48 pm
just as i suggested above here it is in black and white:
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/report-alleged-sandusky-victims-far-back-1970s-contact-lawyers
yes, the smell of green paper does get folks out to seek redemption.
sweet dmb just as you wrote, joe pa’s lawyer said your pockets are deeper than sandusky’s so you better protect your own. this action took place in march so folks knew what was coming, only surprised they seemed so ill prepared form the top down. was the board asleep the whole time or just unaware due to spanier?
Najeh Davenpoop
November 17th, 2011
1:16 pm
When you don’t have to pay your workforce, it is very easy to make money.
Astro Joe
November 17th, 2011
1:21 pm
If the point is that any rich guy can purchase a team somplace, hire some frontoffice personnel, pay the payroll and sit back and do little else, then yes, that is true. But that kind of describes the ownership equivalent to a 11th player on the roster. Purchasing a team in the right market, hiring the right front office, marketinging the product correctly, supporting the right roster decisions, providing the right game-day environment for your customers and creating a culture where employees at all levels can fulfill their potential and work together toward a common goal? That isn’t a dime-a-dozen skill set. I’m personally for a 50/50 split with the players having 3-4 years before re-starting negotiations. When the economy took a down turn, the players absorbed very little risk. So I’m for giving the owners a little recovery time before giving the majority back tot heplayers. But I can’t ignore the importance of owners in the scheme of things and won;t simply suggest that any rich fool could do as well as the next rich fool.
vava74
November 17th, 2011
1:38 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
November 17th, 2011
1:16 pm
Right on. The NCAA is a sham. Under the guise of “amateur sports” the only thing remotely amateur is that the players do get paid whilst $$$$$$ are to be made by everyone else.
Slavery is a more precise way of putting it than Amateur.
doc
November 17th, 2011
1:52 pm
astro no one is looking for a rational suggestion here, you know? but the owners and stern have been begging for a fight and getting real personal in the process to the media. they are bringing the house down in flames around them and it is in their laps.
as i have said all along, show me the money trail before i believe a word of stern and they say. look aghast at the profit in the ncaa on amateur athletes and wont share a bit of it because it wouldnt be “amateur” anymore and it is absurd. show me some transparency as we all know to the penny what payers make in real terms not in accounting wizardry. we all know how much fudge goes on.
Astro Joe
November 17th, 2011
2:59 pm
doc, anyone could have guessed that a labor negotiations in the midst of the current economy would not go particularly well. The NFL is recession proof but not the NBA. I don’t know that I need too much transparency to guess that since 2008, owners have less in fan-related revenue AND corporate sponsorhips than in prior years. Yet expenses have gone up. That is why I am for a “temporary” concession to the owners, giving the economy a little more time to recover so that (in the case of the Hawks), they could charge Home Depot more money for the in-game contest without risk that Home Depot (whose revenue is likely down due to fewer home moves) won’t balk and take their diminished advertising budget elsewhere. Not to mention that we shouldn’t have to ask for too much transparency to make an assumption that double-digit unemployment negatively impacts discretionary spending.
I think it is possible to view Stern with a fair amount of skepticism AND find legit reasons why owners are facing an uphill battle to maintain/grow revenue while payroll expenses remain flat (at best). Again, I would not suggest a long-term deal that allows owners to make hand-over-fist in 6 years when manna is flowing again, but I could also see why there are some hard-liners who need a far better CBA than previous deals struck.
Ultimately, a deal that leaves both sides feeling less than happy is what will eventually spell success.
doc
November 17th, 2011
3:36 pm
i think the estimate is the players gave back 3 bil and they gave up 57% along with a lot of other things. now what have the owners given in these talks is the question, how are they really willing to share between the big markets and small and how are they willing to open their books are among the questions i see are very important. i think their side made many concessions but werent totally ready to roll over and die and as pointed out the owners and stern couldnt enjoy the victory but continued to taunt and deride the other side into a humiliated stance. as you know that is bad negotiation practices.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
3:52 pm
“@doc – show me some transparency as we all know to the penny what payers make in real terms not in accounting wizardry. we all know how much fudge goes on.”
Please explain to us the workings of the “fudge.” I’m an accountant but no one bothered to inform me that I was a wizard.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
3:56 pm
Since league revenue is only $4 billion, how did the players give back $3 billion?
O'Brien
November 17th, 2011
3:57 pm
I understand that it is owners who bear the risk, and given the economy, that’s a huge risk. But players have made most (if not all) concessions. What concessions have owners made?
The league lost ~$300 mil last year, and by players coming down from 57% to 51% BRI, that would cover almost $300 mil.
But imo, the owners do not seem willing to compromise, and want to be protected from themselves. Players have gone as far as to say that they are ok with 50% BRI if the owners will give back on some of the other issues.
But the owners refuse to budge.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
3:59 pm
They gave up 57%??? They were willing to play for free and the owners rejected it?
O'Brien
November 17th, 2011
3:59 pm
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman,
By coming down from 57% BRI to 51% BRI, the players have given back ~$300 mil per year, over a possible 10 year span (if the sides dont opt out before then). I think thats where the $3B comes from.
Astro Joe
November 17th, 2011
4:00 pm
doc, no doubt, but if they can’t get over the taunting then the game is dead… so I am assuming that eventually, the nonsense will cease and folk will get back to the important stuff.
Both sides can’t possibly “give up” money when it comes to carving up the pie. The slices either remain the same size or someone gets less. Ultimately, I want a deal that is in the best interests of the fans… I don’t care if that favors one side or the other. If I want to protect my team from becoming the Cavs or the Raptors (lose a mega-star despite offering him the best possible contract available in the league), then I want some protection that makes it harder for him to leave so I am not stuck with a team that sets the record for most consecutive losses in league history. If I believe that luxury tax teams hold an inherent advantage for winning the gold, then I want them to have some restrictions that burden them from stock-piling their roster with difference-makers. If I don’t want my team’s GM to feel compelled to overpay for a middling player because the Knicks (or some other money-to-burn team) WAY overpaid for a similar middling player (thereby setting the market price for Jeffries/Curry type players), then I want an amnesty clause that allows for some correction to previously set market prices. IMO, those kind of policies/clauses favor me and my “fandom”. Excuse me for being so selfish, but whether Dwight Howard’s next contract is for $150M or $120M is really of very little concern to me. Likewise, I don’t even care if the Bucks owner makes a profit (or breaks even). If all politics are local, then this falls under the same category (for me). Make the rules easier for the Hawks to have a championship parade down Peachtree. That’s the side I’m hoping wins.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
4:04 pm
Astro Joe – well said.
Astro Joe
November 17th, 2011
4:07 pm
OB, what you said is why I think the owners are looking for more than just a money-fix. You’re right, the 50/50 seemingly makes them whole again, but it doesn’t address some fundamental flaws in the current system that makes the playing field less than level. Those “system issues” seemingly are the problem now. How easy/hard for luxury tax teams to sign a FA, as an example. The players won;t lose a red penny based on the owners’ proposal. The difference is that they may have to go to the Hawks instead of the Heat to get their money… but the money is still there. And as a fan, I’d much rather see parity than a handful of legit contenders. But again, the system issues (at least as I understand them), won’t cost the players any salary… but it will make for a far better product (IMO).
doc
November 17th, 2011
4:09 pm
supeme you saying accountants dont cook the corporate books?
ever hear of anderson?
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
4:14 pm
Some of you probably aren’t old enough to remember, but once upon a time trades were made for mutual benefit of all teams. Now it’s trading salaries for salaries, usually a good player going to team A in exchange for team B’s garbage. I am puzzled as to why Toronto and Cleveland agreed to the sign and trade deals for Bosh and James. If I’m the GM of those teams, I would not accept Miami’s garbage contracts. If you say that it’s to get draft picks, under the current system they’ll just walk first chance they get.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
4:15 pm
doc – not everyone is crooked. you paint the picture that we all are, and I don’t appreciate it.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
4:19 pm
BTW, please define “cooking the books.” I’ll bet you can’t, you just heard someone use that term and so you used it yourself.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 17th, 2011
4:22 pm
Hedge Hogs!
“The NFL is recession proof but not the NBA. ” – Astro Joe -
______________
Hedge Funds, Bank of America, Gold & Sachs (that name alone says a mouth full), Lehman Brothers (can you say nopetism?) and AIG! What do they all have in common?
Answer: They are deemed “Too Big to Fail”. They are not in a recession, they were bailed out in the blink of an eye by the middle class taxpayers!
Recession? R U kidding me? The fat cats have made more money in the past three years than we can count. These people don’t work hard, they move money around and they make money off money. Do they pay luxury taxes? Hell to the naw! They slide through loop holes with lawyers and accountants.
The NBA may have made less money since 2008, but less that what? A hundred million south of a billion? Sorry, but I have no tears for the struggling billionaire – forgive me.
A broke billionaire has no relativity to a broke factory worker. And, that’s who goes to the games – the everyday man is the fan base. I have to side with the players in this fight.
Supreme Grand Poobah Blogman
November 17th, 2011
4:24 pm
Dr. Mary – you must assume that the owners enjoy throwing away money?