Atlanta Hawks: Labor fight heads to courtroom as season in jeopardy
(3:40 p.m. update: David Stern speaks, Billy Hunter says season probably lost.)
NBA players got David Stern’s memo and dragged it to the trash bin.
Not only did the NBPA not send the owners’ latest offer to a vote of the full membership, the executive committee and the 30 player reps unanimously rejected the proposal and filed a “disclaimer of interest” that renounces the union’s interest in representing players in bargaining with the league. Billy Hunter said the next stop is a federal courtroom, where individual players will file antitrust suits against owners.
At a press conference following the union meeting, Hunter said “the collective bargaining process has completely broken down.” Later on NBA TV Hunter said: “It’s a high probability rather than possibility” that the 2011-12 season is lost.
Later on SportsCenter, Stern blasted union leadership for what he called a “sham” strategy, said the move is “really irresponsible given the timing of it” and predicted a “nuclear winter of the NBA.”
“It’s OK to do when you haven’t lost a game, but to do it now, the union is ratcheting it up to, I guess, see if they can scare the NBA owners into something,” Stern said. “That’s not happening. What they’ve done is destroy incredible value that otherwise would have gone to union membership.”
It seems some players also are questioning why the union waited until now to take such a drastic step, especially since Hunter and Derk Fisher have said all along that they didn’t think owners would ever present a deal players would accept. Deron Williams went to Twitter to vent on the union’s strategy:
“This is why I said we should have done this in July bc at least the process would have been underway… even over! Now possibly #NOSEASON”
Since Stern already had already said the owners are done negotiating–and noted today that there now is no union with which to negotiate–this means the season is in jeopardy as the two sides fight it out in court. Once players file the suit, we will see if owners follow through with Stern’s threat to void all existing contracts.
Gabriel A. Feldman, the director of the Tulane Sports Law Program, offered a good primer on the legal ramifications of the union’s move:
Assuming the mere threat of decertification/litigation is not enough to move the owners, the NBPA could (while the players are waiting for the decertification election) disclaim interest in representing the players. Disclaimer would permit the players to file their antitrust suit immediately. The NBA owners would argue that any such lawsuit must be heard in NY, so the players could either file in NY (unlikely) or file in another jurisdiction and engage in a legal battle to allow them to choose where the case is heard (more likely).
Stern has said all along that disclaimer/decertification is a losing strategy for players, citing the suit lost by NFL players last summer when they went the disclaimer route. On SportsCenter today he called the union’s tactic a “magical trick” that won’t succeed.
(The union has retained litigator David Boies, who represented the NFL in that case. Can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em?)
But Feldman explains why the NFL case doesn’t necessarily mean NBA players will lose in court:
The ruling in Brady [vs. NFL] obviously favors the NBA owners, but the NBA players may still have success in court for at least a few reasons. First, only courts within the Eighth Circuit are bound by Brady, and it is a virtual certainty that any antitrust suit brought by the NBA players would not be filed in a court within the Eighth Circuit (the NBA filed its preemptory legal action in NY, and the players would likely file their suit in an employee-friendly jurisdiction like California).
Second, let’s be clear as to what the Eight Circuit decided in the Brady case. The NFL players argued that the NFL lockout was illegal and asked for 2 things–an injunction and damages. The district court preliminarily concluded that the lockout was illegal and granted the injunction. The Eighth Circuit reversed, narrowly holding that the Norris-LaGuardia Act prevents federal courts from enjoining lockouts. The court did not conclude that the lockout was illegal and did not conclude that the players were not entitled to bring their antitrust claim. So, even if a court was bound by Brady, it could still determine that the players are able to bring a post-dissolution antitrust suit challenging the lockout, and that the lockout was illegal. In other words, Brady does not prevent the NBA players from dissolving their union and bringing a successful antitrust suit for three-times damages.
Third, decertification (as opposed to disclaimer) may give the NBA players a more powerful argument in court. In Brady, the NFL argued that the NFLPA’s disclaimer of interest was a sham, in part, because it “lack[ed] the formality of decertification” and was “literally a paper-thin statement, issued unilaterally by a union, that may readily be overturned.” The formality of the decertification process could thus weigh in the NBA players’ favor.
Sorry to bog down my blog people with a bunch of legalese but, sadly, that’s where we are. I will update here after Stern speaks.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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315 comments Add your comment
Not So Casual Observer
November 14th, 2011
5:58 pm
The NBA is a players league.
The most recently crowned “Greatest Coach” happens to be the coach who consistently had outstanding players including the best in the game on two occasions. Coaching has a smaller impact than in either baseball or football.
Players tune out the coach and the coach is history whether his name is Riley or Jackson or some other.
But the players do not seem to understand that without the owners there is no league and as the ASG recently learned, the market for NBA teams is very small.
If an owner must have a net worth of $1 billion or more just to sustain a team’s operations then the appeal is gone with the old business model of living with losses until the annual appreciation drives up the value of the franchise.
Have any of the players noticed the state of the US economy? There is unlikely to be a change in the near future and when the socialists take complete control of government there will be a true union and all of the players will be paid on SCALE – say $100K for a PG, $110 for a 2 guard and so on. With the price of a Rolls Royce going to half a mil what will the poor players do?
slimjr
November 14th, 2011
6:15 pm
Keeping up with the Jones can get real expensive! Better downsize your life yesterday?
Welcome to the real world now………………….
Thanks to Bill Clinton and the Republican Congress of 1999, the passing of the “Glass-Steagall Act”
was the beginning of the the 2008 devastating economic meltdown…BTW, word on the street Clinton has a180 IQ! Dude knew what was going down…Nice guy hugh?
northcyde
November 14th, 2011
6:27 pm
I’m sorry, but Stern is full of (( bleep )). And you can quote me on that.
For those of you who truly believe that the proposed CBA presented by the owners will help the small market teams, just remember where your ATLANTA HAWKS were after the 2003 – 04 season.
We were a team that had a TON of cap space. But because we were in full rebuilding mode, we couldn’t attract a SINGLE big name free agent to come to Atlanta. Why do think things will change if this new CBA goes into effect, and a team like the Bobcats were 20 million under the cap and could offer a superstar a MAX deal?
And why do fans ( and even some of these owners ) think that other owners wouldn’t set themselves up to purge their rosters just like Miami did, in hopes of getting a few All-Stars to come to their franchise?
As for the players, I’m not mad at them for doing this. This CBA was horrible one for players, especially the average bench player. This CBA would result in Josh Smith getting a MAX deal from someone in 2013, putting the Hawks in “checkmate” with no chance to re-sign him. It’ll also prevent the Hawks from possibly trading him to a big market team that may give them draft picks and/or expiring players . . or even a good player in return.
And Stern doesn’t even want to talk about the D-League provision, like it doesn’t even exist.
In the meantime, I would like to see the international reaction if some of our All-Stars played in these overseas leagues. I would imagine the atmosphere would be crazy over there. And don’t think for one minute that the corporations that currently back some of these players, will continue to back them when they play overseas.
For some that don’t want to go overseas, I would like to see them do these exhibition games, but maybe do them against some of these streetball teams. Ball Up ( the former And 1 Mixtape tour ) should team up with the former NBA stars, and put on exhibitions all over the country. Call it: “Ball Up vs The League”.
Instead of ultra competitive games, the players may have to continue to look at themselves as “entertainers who play basketball”. Contrary to popular belief, people will STILL pay to see these guys, even if they don’t have on their official NBA uniforms. Make your money that way players.
How about Ball Up vs the Atlanta All-Stars?
The ASG may not let them play at Philips Arena, but I’m sure that they could play at Georgia Tech or the Gwinett Center and get a real good crowd. Maybe better than the Hawks if they played a Tuesday night home game vs Toronto.
moboman
November 14th, 2011
6:31 pm
Tell it slimjr.
Gonna be a winter, but it wont be nuclear. Plenty of NCAA ball to watch. Perhaps come March or so, the players will realize that they missed out on the best deal they were gonna get, and that it was better than what the owners should have even offered. May have to start wearing the sneakers more than once each pair. Its time to fix the league, just like they had to do with football many years ago. Football has flourished since the owners stood their ground and leveled the playing field for all teams. Its the only chance the NBA has to get things right. What happened in Miami proves that.
doc
November 14th, 2011
7:08 pm
slim jr, that was all clinton and democrats, along with his money policy cronies that are still in power and greenspan. bankers were able to really dig in to every pocket including yours and mine. i had to laugh at the look on bush’s face as the keys to the white house were passed on as i knew full well what was coming diwn the pipe. it was like oh sh!t what have i gotten into. what i didnt know was he would let the military industrial complex lead us into a two front war and put us into such debt thinking they would be snart enough to continue to negotiate our way to oil rather than fight on it.
shut it down
November 14th, 2011
7:21 pm
all these boys need to man up. both sides of the street… owners, players all professional sports, corporate whigs, politicians, wall street execs, etc. i sympathize for all these ‘poor’ folk. poor in mind and attitude, bickering over billions. they’re so broke, they cant pay attention to what’s real. its a disease and addiction of the heart, mind and soul. this is the root of the world being broke, busted and disgusted. i have no problem with anyone living well, having excess, just proves enough stuff is never enough… this type of desire is going to turn and be a curse and snare to those who think it’s their salvation. the deeper their pockets, the more they’ll hurt in the long run, i’m sure madoff will testify to that, he sold his soul but couldn’t afford to buy it back. i like basketball but no nba, etc… can actually be a blessing in disguise. something’s gotta change, might as well start here. i’ve been unemployed for 11 months 27 days, not collecting any assistance, banking on faith and making it just fine. less can be more from the real perspective.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 14th, 2011
7:39 pm
Pay Yo Rent Fool!
doc is spot on! The ASKG still got to make them Arena payments and light bill each month on a empty nest. Ugggh Hugggh …. That’s every 30 days fellas.
Don’t forget, them TV revenues will stop coming in …. Ouch! Oh snap! Did you forget about all that merchandise all over town & in the Arena Stores that will be just hanging there? And, it’s the Holiday Season too.
These players will get car title loans and banks will belined up to give them secured lines of credit knowing the lock out won’t last forever.
Billy & Dereck told these guys to save their money two years ago. I hope they listened. It’ll be good for everyone of the owners and players to feel our pain, at least 99% of us are used to budgeting.
___________________
A teachable moment? I’d say so.
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
7:47 pm
northclyde u make a good point bout exhibitions i just dont see fans being interested with streetball and 1 stuff with nba players. fans like to see competitive games seeing james or horford or smith throwing ally oops to themselves and playng no defense would turn a lot of people off. the nba is about the experiene arena front of the jersey also they still want to make money do u see that filling out college campuses courts?i dont see that and when would the play since college bball has started. also for the ones that go overseas that arent used to it will be a cultue shock for some. they arent going to get pampred there and travel 1st class and have top notched meals and they will be paid less. i am happy players took a stand but i am more important to see their resolve if they can hold out for a year more props but the fans are going to vent to players and owners. this i gonna like baseball in 1994. some fans will never come back diehards will but some will be gone forever. it really comes down to player movement vs small market teams.
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
7:58 pm
what would be interesting if they could form aba teams drmary b problem wont be the smith horford joe johnsons they can survive not gettingloans,problem will be the jamal crawford mo evans etan thomas of the world also does this mean larry drew is done as coach he only had this year left and hinrich? guess start watching my alma mater uconnn for some college bball
Andrew
November 14th, 2011
9:03 pm
Amazing video of a high school player from Columbia TN who kicks the ball dead straight 75-80 yards in the air. He was successful on 54 of 54 attempts this season….100%. Now he needs a college team.
Watch for yourself…it is unreal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JKwgwFY3g
darrell starks
November 14th, 2011
9:07 pm
How 50 – 50 unfair the player are retarted, i wonder are the players understanding on how bad the economy is with more and more people out of work more foreclosures around the country, and getting worse by the min. How can aplayer agree with this union and not understanding the circumstances that going on globally wow!!!!!!!! this BS is crazy and player union should be baned.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 14th, 2011
9:18 pm
Teams are loosing money and professional sport could soon be obsolete if players in sports don’t wake up soon and understand that this globally thing it’s like and domino effect that every one will be hurting with less attendence at the games.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike is back
November 14th, 2011
10:29 pm
MC, if we have learned anything…its Stern is a very heady guy when it’s comes to negotiation. I would be shocked…if this caught Stern by surprise…this may have been what the hardliners wanted all alone.
doc
November 14th, 2011
11:04 pm
mike the true threat of an anti trust legal action is not what stern or the owners want or expected. it is a chess match or a high stakes card game right now.
Grandad
November 15th, 2011
12:38 am
Players who may never see another NBA paycheck:
Older marginal players:
Earl Boykins..Eduardo Najera..Nazr Mohammed..Jason Collins
Etan Thomas..Baron Davis..Marcus Camby..Andre Miller..
Juwan Howard..Erick Dampier.. Ben Wallace..Jason terry
Ageing Stars:
Tim Duncan..Ray Allen..KG..Chauncey Billups..Jason Kidd..
Grant Hill..Antawn Jamison.. and ironically – *Derek Fisher !
__________________________________________________
Rhetoric which is completely inappropriate ” nuclear winter “.
__________________________________________________
Stern says and I agree;
this could take years in the court system.
Legal system does not make way for athletes.
__________________________________________________
-boy oh boy-
__________________________________________________
When de-certification becomes official;
Stern / owners are going to cancel [invalidate]
guaranteed contracts.
Joe rhymes with uh oh !
__________________________________________________
Some players [such as Kevin Martin] already carping;
“why didn’t players get to vote” ?
__________________________________________________
I agree with K.Martin & stern on that one.
Why didn’t Billy Hunter put it to a vote of the players.
__________________________________________________
doc:
I would be a democrat if I were not a socialist.
-Also-
doc;
says he has a czech girlfriend – I have to write my girlfriend checks.
*note – [don't tell Mrs Grandad]
__________________________________________________
Players flippin’ burgers,
no matter what;
owners won’t be flippin’ no burgers.
__________________________________________________
Grandad
November 15th, 2011
12:41 am
“Stern says and I agree;
this could take years in the court system.”
* Think Belkin v ASG !
brigadierjerry
November 15th, 2011
5:19 am
The NBA says there are two problems. They are losing money and there are system issues.
Without going into why cutting salaries will have zero effect on the NBA losing money long term let me touch upon the system issues.
If the NBA brought in more revenue last year than ever before, why are system issues a problem for the league?
Were system issues a problem in the 80s when the Lakers/Celtics dominated the league?
Were they a problem in the 90s when the Bulls and Rockets were winning all the titles?
Were they a problem in the early 2000s when the Spurs/Lakers were dominate?
How come all of a sudden, when revenues are higher than ever, system issues are a problem?
On the other hand having players do a barnyard allstar tournament is like Harlem Globetrotters are great business for season one. Then people realize that they will always beat the Washington Generals.
If the owners of these 20 other franchises just simply want to be the Washington Generals and get tossed scraps from LeBron’s TV ratings, they’d never have bought NBA teams in the first place. Invest the money elsewhere if that is all they care about.
These guys all want the chance to compete, the chance to have a superstar on their roster and be a factor. You can’t have a league long-term without competitive balance. Doesn’t mean you can’t have great teams. But the great teams need to succeed on their merits not by virtue of being in a chosen market or situation.
A quick list of the few people who “won” today -
The agents.
This must be like Christmas, Birthday and New Years all rolled in to one. They finally get a chance to craft an NBA landscape in their image and are set to reap the benefits if they can win in the courts.
Having said that – I for one have no idea why the agents haven’t been negotiating for the players this whole time. I mean, that’s their job, right? These agents make bitches out of the owners 365 days a year and they would be able to negotiate a lot harder than Billy Hunter and a small collection of players. But I digress….
Players who signed with overseas teams early.
Deron Williams has already tweeted his giant “I TOLD U SO” like he has access to some kind of mythical crystal ball. Lets be fair Deron: you were lucky. The rest of the league will now be scrambling to land a deal abroad, making the ones already signed overseas look like geniuses.
Sports writers.
They finally get some rest after over 100 days and nights of camping out in hotel foyers.
Billy Hunter.
Got to press the big red button and sneak out of the back after what has been a pretty embarrassing year. If the players had accepted this deal he knew he was fired. So you have to wonder how hard he sold it to the players.
And the people who really lost today -
Small market owners.
Contraction is now a real threat to these teams. A franchise which lost $20m during one of the most profitable seasons in history are set to make a damning losses this year (and next year depending on what the league looks like). These owners must be feeling like they just accidently shot off a foot today.
NBA employees.
During a time of pretty horrific unemployment this seems like a fairly brutal way to treat NBA staff – but the reality is there are going to be a lot of lay-off and closed down business surrounding the arenas. Tough.
The fans.
Unlike 1998-99, these new jack players feel like they are being punked. Stern forgot his audience this go round. Back in 1998-99 he had Jordan, Ewing etc….guys who had been around who had (while unrealistic views) 2-3 years of college, super-agent David Falk and MJ along with Isiah Thomas (Union President at that time) had far more leverage than these young cats do now, BUT these young guns dont wanna be punked and Dave went too far with this crew….Moral of the story David, Know Your Audience!
Plus you have guys like Chauncey Billups saying I was there in 1998-99, them guys fought for me…I rather lose 14 million than accept a bad deal. That resonates to these young players. Regardless of what some of us may think
O'Brien
November 15th, 2011
7:44 am
Honest_abe,
the system is broke. Until the players realize this there won’t be anymore basketball..
The players do realize it. They have gone from 57% BRI, all the way down to 51%. But the owners will not budge. And the players are willing to even take 50% BRI (that the owners proposed) if the owners will make some concessions in other areas. But again, the owners will not budge.
imo, so far, all the players have done is give give give. And all the owners have done is take take take.
Mike is Back
November 15th, 2011
7:47 am
Grandad, dude after what happen to BASG in court expenses…I disagree…some of these owners are in the same predicament as the players.
THE PLAYERS…are being advised by lawyers too…I seriously doubt a bunch of guys just sat down in a room…and said we gon reject the contract…with BILLIONS of dollars at steak.jeeeeeeeeze.
Get off these guys asssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!
Mike is Back
November 15th, 2011
7:49 am
Yeah, I beat up two tree words…but wouldn’t think was me if didn’t.lol
O'Brien
November 15th, 2011
7:56 am
Section 303,
If I were an owner, I would push for an NFL like system. Cut the guarantee contracts..
Although there are non-guaranteed contracts, the NFL pays the players huge signing bonuses. Do you think NBA owners would want to do that? Plus, in the NFL, there are times when the players’ salary still counts against your cap even after being cut (depending on how the contract is written),
So there are a lot of challenges there.
Owners just need to be smarter with their money. Why give JJ 6 years, $124 mil? Why give Arenas the contract he receveid? What about Rashard Lewis? Turk? The list goes on.
Owners chose to give these guys horrible contracts. And now they want to blame the players?
I dont blame the players for going to court. Let the owners open up their books, and see how they are really spending their NBA money. I dont think there was any compromise from the owners. Maybe going to court will force the owners to bargain in good faith, something I dont think they have done so far.
That being said, I thought the players would take the deal.
dap01
November 15th, 2011
8:26 am
We have seen the last of many of the older players in the league. We will see an aged player in most of the players who return next year.
Let’s wait a couple of years and start over. Flush out all of these players and start again.
Hypocrite Hunter
November 15th, 2011
8:47 am
I don’t have an emotional or financial stake in the process. Hope they figure it out. In the meantime, the time I previously invested in paying any attention to my local team is being diverted to other interests and thus my allegiances diluted. Its really hard for me to care about whether Joe Johnson or ASG wins…sort of like picking a side in a contest between two drug dealers.
newkid
November 15th, 2011
9:51 am
This disagreement between the players and the league is potentially a boon for professional basketball at the international level. For decades the most talented players have concentrated in US to play for the highest wages, in front of the largest crowds, and against best talent on the planet. However, basketball (unlike US football) is a global sport with teeming fan interest worldwide (especially in Asia). Growing economies in the developing world, while still far behind that of US, are producing consumer classes with increasing amounts of discretionary income, and with interests in using some of that income for leisure and entertainment. A 10-15 year view would suggest that the time could very will be ripe for beginnings of an internationalization of top flight professional basketball comparable to the fashion in which industrial production has been internationalized over the past 15 years. The US and European ‘captains of industry’ have been significantly affected by this internationalization of productive capacity. Could it be that we’re on the cusp of a similar shift in top flight professional basketball?
Najeh Davenpoop
November 15th, 2011
10:05 am
There is nothing about the current system that can be fixed to encourage small market teams to be more competitive. The only ways to guarantee that are contraction (which will never happen as long as Stern is in charge) and elimination of free agency (which will never happen, period). Anything the owners say about this dispute that relates to improving competitive balance is a lie. They want more money, and they are trying to grab it from the players instead of holding themselves accountable to make better decisions.
By the way, that guy Gabriel Feldman is on Twitter and usually has some pretty intelligent takes on what is going on with this whole lockout situation.
vava74
November 15th, 2011
10:11 am
newkid,
“This disagreement between the players and the league is potentially a boon for professional basketball at the international level. ”
There is no money outside the USA – apart from China – to pay for top tier talent and the hard fact is that once the NBA players see the travel, lodging and playing conditions which even the top teams offer… well, they are out of there in no time.
There are obvious exceptions: I understand the charm about playing for an Istambul based team: the city is incredible and the fans there are like raging lunatics (other places too, like Greece, former Yugoslavian republics, some places in Italy, …).
But the hard facts are the above.
There is an interesting piece/interview with Childress (it was on yahoo.sports) where he described the huge gap between what you get as a player in the NBA and what you get in Europe, even at top top level.
Geemack
November 15th, 2011
10:18 am
As Hawks fans we should be used to this type of disappointment.
Nothing to cheer about at the end of the season.
Only now it starts 6 months early.
doc
November 15th, 2011
10:26 am
seems like stern continues to negotiate by giving press ultimatums to the players and saying what the other side should do rather than doing more on his side of the fence. there has been a lot of acrimony from him going back to the all star event where he used that event inappropriately to shoot a few verbal darts at the other side. there has been a lot of take it or leave it tactics as well. finally he rrally has it out for the litigator for the players always wanting to discredit him whenever necessary. these strategies on his part suggrst maybe his side has more to hide than we think. and anyone that thinks an nfl type parity will make a difference for small markets use the jaguars as exhibit a to discredit that argument.
the motto we all should follow is in stern we trust … NOT.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 15th, 2011
10:38 am
Verbatim!
O’Brien @ 736 AM: that is my take verbatim, so co-sign that.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 15th, 2011
11:19 am
Riled Up!
Nice reads & takes from everyone today. A lot to chew on.
I will miss: Hawks playing basketball – period.
newkid
November 15th, 2011
11:21 am
@vava74: “There is no money outside the USA – apart from China …”
That’s a huge exception, especially if one looks out over a 15-year time horizon. If one looks at the so-called small markets, there’s little money inside US from which to support professional basketball. The world’s largest civilization has a population well over 4 times that of US. Then there’s the rest of Asia. The NBA has dramatically increased its efforts to market the play of its players to a rapidly growing world market (especially China), and it’s working. According to Stern himself, as of 2009 NBA revenues from China were growing at an annucal clip of 30%-40%. But don’t take my word for it regarding this potential international opportunity, here’s what the Boston Globe had to say during the 2010 NBA finals:
“International sales make up 35 percent of the NBA’s overall merchandise business, and are expected to soar another 30 percent this year. More than half of NBA.com’s traffic is from outside America — more than for any other sports league…”
Nike gets it, so Phil Knight has sent his basketball ’stable’ to China and other parts of Asia in droves over the past 8-10 years. It’s working. Sure, no one’s coming to Portugal and other fairly small nation states in western Europe to market professional basketball and basketball related merchandise (why waste time and money), but China ain’t western Europe. Those who insist upon aimlessly peering into the rear view mirror on roads with one S-curve after another will almost assuredly crash and burn. The opportunity I speak of is for those who recognize the folly in that ‘rear view mirror’ approach to assessing future opportunities.
doc
November 15th, 2011
11:34 am
MC could you rescue my post that had comments on an article that the blog monster wont let me post from yahoo about the mess we are in?
tried to post just the article and that was denied as well.
thanks!
doc
November 15th, 2011
11:36 am
o’b agreed with yours and najeh’s comments. the nfl still has incompetent organizations that run things on the cheap or mismanagement and this isnt like the nhl which really had no income stream beyond ticket sales with stupid salaries deserving a true restructure.
read woj in yahoo today for a good article and it wont let me post it here.
dap01
November 15th, 2011
12:25 pm
I haven’t heard anything about competitive balance and small market concerns from the players.
Old Scratch
November 15th, 2011
12:35 pm
I simply love watch the NBA devour itself. Mere words cannot express the joy of potentially wiping this mistake off the face of the Earth.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 15th, 2011
12:36 pm
Too Much Good Stuff!
newkid!!!
Bringing fiyah, intellect and passion to the round table.
A very nice perspective.
Jimmy Crack
November 15th, 2011
12:39 pm
The NBA strike…It don’t mean a thing, if they can’t buy new bling!
Owners: Come back, fellas, we’ll give you HALF of our profits to play some basketball!
Players: We want more than you make! Plus we want to wear fuzzy hats and snuggies to press conferences!
Owners: No fuzzy hats or snuggies, but we will give you extra road game tickets for your multiple extended families!
Players: Holla!
O'Brien
November 15th, 2011
1:04 pm
From the Woj article at Yahoo Sports;
Ultimately, Stern has failed to finesse those hard-liners, instead inspiring as much loathing with some owners as he has with players. He can’t sell a fair deal to his hardline owners, which left him unable to sell a one-sided agreement to his players..
If Players are not happy with David Stern, and owners are not happy with David Stern….that’s a tough position to be in.
JIMMY MACK
November 15th, 2011
1:16 pm
Old Scratch
November 15th, 2011
12:35 pm
I simply love watch the NBA devour itself. Mere words cannot express the joy of potentially wiping this mistake off the face of the Earth.
Old Scratch, if the NBA is such a mistake why in the world you are wasting your time reading this blog? Did you just entered your comment? of did you read the other bloggers comments?
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 15th, 2011
1:47 pm
Adrian Wojo
Here’s the link doc referred to: it’ too long to copy the entire article here.
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_labor_players_owners_111511
doc
November 15th, 2011
2:00 pm
since i was blocked on two occasions and lost some timely repartee that mc hasnt found yet i will print in full from sam amick that damns both the owners and stern especially and hunter somewhat:
The owners bear most of this blame. That much has to be said at the start. This was their game of running players off the road as they tried to get out of harm’s way. The players offered concession after concession — a 7-percent reduction of their share of basketball-related income that would have nearly wiped out the league’s purported $300 million in annual losses, changes to the system that would further improve the economics and a season to be had as long as that was actually the goal.
But instead of looking forward to the start of a 72-game season, we’re left with this: a group of NBA players, who felt not only defeated but also disrespected in this two-year process, taking the drastic move of disclaiming interest in their union on Monday. Their move takes the fight to the wrong kind of court and puts the 2011-12 season in serious peril.
They heard the endless ultimatums from commissioner David Stern that almost always came with condescending tones, the latest being a promise of a drastically worse “reset” offer if the current proposal was declined. Those players with the most power — from union president Derek Fisher to the eight other members of the executive committee — bristled when they studied the specifics of a deal. They saw the rules relating to the proposed luxury tax as an attempt to sneak a hard cap into their house. They fumed at the D-League idea in which players’ contracts could be circumvented. And while that clause was not in the formal proposal, it showed once again how tone deaf the owners must be and was seen as the latest middle finger from the league.
These are professional athletes whose egos and pride came into play here. And the hard-line owners either didn’t recognize that or didn’t care. They pushed too hard against a group that was on its heels from the start and failed to protect the spirit of partnership that could have been the key to a deal being done. They ignored the realities of these negotiations, their senselessness intentional and their end game taking precedence over all the rest.
And that’s why this is so dangerous for the players, why it’s so likely to turn into a prolonged death march and forever change the bank accounts and careers of their masses. Blame Stern for the tone of the talks, but he wasn’t lying about the devil-may-care attitude so many of his constituents continue to privately exude.
I would be shocked if the owners blink here, perhaps by calling the players’ new lawyer, David Boies, to sweeten the proposal and put an end to this madness. The owners will keep the gas on no matter how much damage they do — not just to the players and the game, but to the cities with publicly funded arenas that depend on the revenue and the workers who silently suffer in these already tough times. And whether it’s months or perhaps even years down the road, the players who will have paid the price will need to lick their wounds and have an overhaul of their own.
Their system within this system — the soon-to-be-defunct NBPA, intended to fairly represent some 420 players — clearly failed them. The union’s inefficiencies, the internal dysfunction on display and the inability of players to mobilize in an organized fashion helped doom this latest deal. That was embarrassingly evident in the days leading up to Monday’s decision. Union officials declined to share this proposal, deemed the league’s last and best, with the players who deserved a right to vote.
Three days came and went without any widespread communication between the union and its players, with the offer finally being leaked to USA Today on Sunday and later published by the league as part of its 11th-hour push to get it approved. With the 30 player representatives holding the only hope of word being spread from the top to the bottom of the workforce, sources consistently painted a pathetic picture of that key crowd.
Many reps weren’t calling their teammates, weren’t taking the time to understand the nuances of the $2 billion they still had an opportunity to have. Even on Monday, the most significant day of negotiations since the lockout began, there were no representatives from Portland, Utah or Sacramento in attendance.
Hunter is on the hook for that. Especially in light of his often-contentious relationships with agents who consistently questioned his leadership — an ongoing practice since he took over in 1996, causing him to become increasingly distant and dismissive of that group — you’d think he would have been more adamant about empowering and educating the players. But he chose the reactionary path of solitude — first with the owners during those first few months of negotiations, and later with the very agents he seems to despise.
In the days leading up to the decision to disclaim interest, sources said Hunter routinely received information from the group of seven agents who had been pushing for decertification from the start. He wanted a head count on how many players wanted that so-called nuclear option (roughly 130 were required and more than 200 were believed to be on board) and clearly took that threat into serious consideration before deciding to disclaim. While a decertification vote would have taken between 45 and 60 days, the disclaimer route almost instantly dissolves the union and allows players to file an antitrust suit against the league much sooner. Sources told SI.com on Saturday that the move looked likely, and a unanimous vote on Monday sealed this terrible deal.
There’s blame all around, and plenty of time to tell these tales.
you know we criticize the players but when it comes down to it they are just like us when we have to get counsel from lawyers or professionals to make the best decision which includes their agents. if this was such a good deal the agents and plenty of other folks would have been giving some advice to not do what they have done. they have to follow the best counsel they have and hope for the best like we do in similar circumstances.
i will say stern whenever he could tired to discredit and demean players advisors/counsel and became very personal even to bash the players by essentially calling them fools for not taking the last offer. that will not win you over anyone and it is like that is what he wants at this moment to be a hard baller. the take it or leave it mentality has struck some including me to name it for what it is.
Grandad
November 15th, 2011
2:13 pm
Mike is Back
I’m not on the players;
I’m only saying that many of the players
are livin’ paycheck to paycheck,
Heck – you see it everyday – retired players …
homeless, destitute, broke, in debt, pennyless,
yet all former millionaires..
The owners – will be hit hard – but none will miss a meal.
You will not see Mark Cuban drivin’ a cab;
James Dolan eating at a soup kitchen,
Ted Turner jr. [ASG] wasing dishes at “Ted’s Montana Grill”,
-nor-
the Buss family squirting water on windshields at intersections.
IRMC
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Competitive Balance:
From my perspective – the clause in the proposal to the players;
which required owners of -all- teams … -even Sterling & Maloofs-
to pay up to 85 % and eventually 90+ % of the cap;
is / was the biggest kicker for “competitive balance”.
Then all teams would be spending their money and cheap ass owners
could not foofoo their fans.
Grandad
November 15th, 2011
2:15 pm
” yet all former millionaires..”
meaning:
they were all former millionaires at one time.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 15th, 2011
2:38 pm
“From my perspective – the clause in the proposal to the players;
which required owners of -all- teams … -even Sterling & Maloofs-
to pay up to 85 % and eventually 90+ % of the cap”
I didn’t know there was a clause like that, but even if there was, it would mean nothing without better revenue sharing, which the big-market owners are resisting forcefully. All that would do is accelerate the losses of small market teams and force them to contract sooner. That is a good thing in the long run but I’d be surprised if David Stern wasn’t smart enough to see this, and he has resisted contraction throughout his time as commissioner.
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 15th, 2011
3:06 pm
Just When?
Just when has teams not spending available money under the cap an issue? And, what teams are guilty of spending less than 85% or 90%? And, are those teams competitive?
More importantly, isn’t it better to spend wisely than to spend just for the sake of spending?
I guess I have more questions than answers – hugh?
doc
November 15th, 2011
3:21 pm
dmb many teams take that route to spend the minimum including the hawks. still think owners allowing revenue sharing would be the quickest way to parity or defining the bad from the good on competition not taking money from players. bad organizations are just that and why the queen left not for more money.
O'Brien
November 15th, 2011
3:27 pm
Najeh,
The salary cap floor (85% – 90% of the cap) was mentioned, but I don’t think it was in the final proposal that Stern gave the players,
Early on, there were reports of players not being of one accord. However, I don’t think owners are all on the same page either. I think the small market teams and the big market teams are not in agreement.
For example, the pnealty for going into luxury tax becomes very expensive starting in year 3. I think This is an attempt to reel in the big spenders (Lakers, Knicks, Heat, Celtics etc).
Peter M. Arel
November 15th, 2011
4:25 pm
BOTH SIDES WERE AT FAULT;Fans should stop “Paying ransom to kidnappers” and city officials should get local ordinances passed THAT DENY THE NBA THE USE OF THEIR ARENAS SO THE PUBLICLY-FUNDED ARENAS CAN BE USED INSTEAD FOR OTHER PURPOSES THAT WILL ENSURE THAT ARENA EMPLOYEES STAY EMPLOYED AND THAT LOCAL BUSINESSES THAT DEPEND ON REVENUE RAISED BY EVENTS AT THESE ARENAS WILL ENABLE THEM TO STAY IN BUSINESS! Fans should play sports themselves, patronize bowling alleys and keep them funded as a result of this lockout;also as a result of this year’s destructive lockout, the NBA-BOTH PLAYERS AND OWNERS-SHOULD LOSE THEIR FAN BASE FOREVERMORE!
Peter M. Arel
November 15th, 2011
4:36 pm
I’d like to see bowling become an EVEN MORE POPULAR PASTIME FOR MANY AMERICAN SPORTS FANS.It will keep bowling alleys funded and since bowling is fairly inexpensive it can and should enjoy even greater popularity;ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT FOR FANS TO KEEP ACTIVE AS A RESULT OF THIS YEAR’S UNCONSCIONABLE “LOCKOUT” BY THE NBA OWNERS. I’m hoping to see the NBA become EVEN MORE IRRELEVANT to sports fans EVERYWHERE.
newkid
November 15th, 2011
5:57 pm
The excerpt below is from a recent article about the income producing prospects for one of the ‘large market’ franchises. doc’s correct; figuring out an equitable way to share this booty amongst owners is one of the keys to resolving the current mess. Stern knows he has about as much of a chance at making this happen as Jos Johnson has of winning an O’Brien trophy here in Atlanta under ASG ownership; can’t make that happen. MJ can’t get this kind of loot no matter how effective he becomes in marketing that Charlotte franchise, nor can those cats in Indiana, Minnesota, etc. Were you Buss, would you annually share this $150M with the likes of the ASG?
“I’m no economist and I didn’t go to business school, but I almost fell off my chair when I read the news that the Lakers had struck a 20-year deal with Time Warner Cable that involves the exclusive rights to broadcast the team’s games and the creation of two new regional sports channels. The mechanics of how exactly all of this will work haven’t been made clear yet, and no one is disclosing how much the Lakers are going to make out of this.
Initial estimates have pegged the Lakers’ take at nearly $150 million per year, an unthinkable sum that’s five times larger that what the they get under their current deal with Fox Sports, according to Los Angeles Business.”
If the $150M per annum is close to correct, it’s got very little to do with Buss, and tons to do the value that has been created by the cats who’ve worn Laker gold over the past 20 years. Remove ‘Buss’ and insert ‘Johnson’ and see how marginal that affects the $150M estimate. Change the market and the players and watch how quickly that $150M becomes $15M. The little markets, even if Stern were of a mind to assist them, can’t win a fight with the big dogs. So what does Stern and his little dogs do? Easy, find a group of even smaller dogs and beat the crap out of them to get to a black balance sheet.