Atlanta Hawks: Owners’ latest final offer includes 72-game season
NBA reps and union officials emerged from their meeting at about 11 p.m. No deal. Here is the full union press conference and here is the league.
The highlights:
- Owners made some changes to the previous proposal that was rejected by the union. David Stern said it’s now take-it-or-leave it: “We have made our revised proposal and are not planning to make another one.”
- The players don’t like deal but they are considering it. Billy Hunter called it “not the greatest proposal in the world.” He plans to talk it over with the 30 team reps but for some reason it won’t happen until Monday or Tuesday. Hunter said it’s a course of action that was endorsed by the players on the executive committee. “I have an obligation to at least present it to membership, so that’s what we are going to do,” Hunter said.
- Stern said the league would wait until the players meet and decide on the deal. If they don’t accept the offer, then the league’s “revised negotiation position” would become the 47-percent BRI, “flex” cap deal that he threatened if the union didn’t accept the previous deal by Wednesday.
- Hunter didn’t rule out the union eventually accepting the deal on the table: “It depends on the direction we get from the player reps.”
- Union decertification is still in play.
- Stern said the owners’ offer is based on a squeezing in a 72-game season that opens on Dec. 15. Deputy commish Adam Silver said the start of the playoffs and the Finals would be moved back a week. That would mean a very tough schedule for players.
- The players continue to object to system issues that include sign-and-trades and mid-level exceptions for tax-paying teams. “I can’t say on any one of them that they came off of [their position] the way we would like,” Fisher said. Adrian Wojnarowski says owners “barely moved” on important issues.
- So basically Hunter and Fisher will present a plan they don’t seem to like to the player reps. It seems they don’t have a choice.
- “We feel like there is nothing to talk about except our willingness to move off [our position],” Hunter said. “That’s why we need to meet with with the player reps.”
- “We will bring the player reps up to speed on what I guess is called the ‘revised proposal’ that the NBA has made,” Fisher said. “And realize that this is the last best offer and make a decision at that point.”
- Hunter said there also were 30 to 40 “ancillary issues” that needed to be addressed. He said they included the draft age limit, commissioner discipline of players and mandated off days.
- Stern: “We have done everything possible given our goals of a sound economic model and having the most competitive league. The union raised some issues and we discussed those with the [labor] committee and we moved as far as we could move. So we are at where we are at. I’m optimistic that the NBA owners will approve it if the union approves it, and we await the response from the union. We’ve done our best.”
- Deputy commish Adam Silver said he understand why the union is struggling with accepting rules that will reduce their freedom to move from team to team and also substantially reduce their share of revenue. “For any group of employees that is difficult to take,” Silver said. “I understand from the union’s standpoint it is a difficult pill to swallow right now. But I think we will be proven right and that [with the proposed CBA] this will be a better league for the players, the teams and the fans.”
- A French reporter told Hunter, Fisher and the other union execs that they appeared “dissipated” and wondered if that meant they were defeated. That launched Hunter into a great rant in which he described what sounded like awful conditions in the negotiating room. “It’s been a long haul,” Hunter said.
- CBSSports.com’s Ken Berger pulled a Perry and froze up when called on to ask a question. He said he forgot what he was going to ask.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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164 comments Add your comment
doc
November 12th, 2011
12:00 pm
there are back room shenanigans everywhere there is power, greed and money involved from the biggest to the smallest business organizations or municipalities. though not directly involved, i witnessed it first hand how legal issues can be quickly twisted and it was an awakening. vava, as a lawyer, you know deals are being made all the time that are made to be close to the law and lawyers are right in the middle of it. please dont say you are naive to it. guess big ray doesnt have any notion of these things to tip toe around in his time either.
integrity is lost in our culture and has been since forever and folks that are whistle blowers can never go back. they often have their lives destroyed doing the right thing. that is the lesson we see and hear every day.
the psychology behind these events both in the abuse and silence and the moral outrage that followed to have an immediate hanging by henchmen are classic behaviors. the three under indictment will have their day in court the others may be destroyed for life by their association and our perceptions rather than what is truth if there is ever such a thing.
vava74
November 12th, 2011
12:17 pm
Buddy,
I think it was you that said that JJ did nothing special against the Bulls.
I think you really need to watch those games again.
In the 2 wins, JJ played great: game 1, he was a monster (with Jamal too).
In game 4, he came through when it mattered in the 4th securing the win (with a great game by Josh).
The rest of the games he was not great, but he was solid in most of them, in particular taking in consideration that we getting virtually nothing – on both ends of the court – from Diaper Al making our life a lot more difficult that way.
vava74
November 12th, 2011
12:20 pm
Even if the Hawks were loaded with cash, I prefer watching a competitive league rather than a league where 80% of the teams are mere cannon fodder.
vava74
November 12th, 2011
12:25 pm
Conf. Semifinals ATL G6 GS6 MPG41.5 FG%0.489 3P%0.500 FT%0.889 ORPG0.5 DRPG2.2 RPG2.7 APG3.2 SPG1.7 BPG0.0 TOPG2.5 FLPG1.7 PPG 19.7
If anything, JJ shot too little for a guy who has to be “the man” in the Hawks team, however, he was double and triple teamed all the time with Horford AWOL and Crawford shooting only blanks after game 1.
doc
November 12th, 2011
12:33 pm
at vava 12:2o … that is a pipe dream. this is about wealthy men making more money, not competitive balance. only in letters to the season ticket owners was this ever mentioned and never again. nothing they have done is for competitive balance nor saving fans money at the ticket box or concession stands. beer will still be 7.50 or above and fake meat burgers approaching 10 bucks with fries and pretzels at 4. the owners have never been transparent. nothing is going to make sac, minny, or charlotte any better as they have terribly run franchises.
vava74
November 12th, 2011
12:58 pm
doc,
About food and drinks:
You complain, but your culture (USA) of eating and drinking at the stadium/dome/… like there is no tomorrow is difficult for me to understand.
If I lived in the USA, I would never eat stadium food, nor drink anything there.
When I lived in Lisbon and followed football (soccer) as a die hard fan for my team, the last thing I would think was to eat or drink during a match. During the match/game: 100% attention to what was going on on field.
Occasionally I had a drink at half time. Occasionally.
I always did my drinking and eating before and/or after matches and at the spots of my choice, being that sometimes the best food at the best price was the one you could buy from a trailer.
Stadium food and drinks are basically a trap and you only fall if you want to.
As for the competitive balance, I think you are wrong: there is a clear move to block what happened last year with the three stooges teaming up and with Paul in the pipeline to join ‘Melo and Amar’e.
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
1:04 pm
The one thing that I will say in regards to competitive balance, can anyone remember when the NBA had competitive balance? The 80’s didnt have it were lakers and celtics and later the Pistons then the 90’s the Bulls. In the 200’s were somewhat split between the Lakers Spurs some Pistons and a splash of Miami and Dallas but the league unlike the other sports have never really had competitive balance.
Grandad, I dont know if you got to see Jerry West interview in regards to his book. He talks about the time in the 70’s when he played other teams it was as if the teams he played night in and night out were all star teams. He also said during those times and I have watched film it was very physical. I was too young to remember that. Can you or anyone confirm that to be the case?
The Hawks are a very good team not a great one but they are really not that far away. I dont think anyone wants to go back to the 13 win Hawk teams. I would also think and it is proven whether small or big market team you have to spend and obviously wisely that is the way to success. It may not always work out but you have to spend.
Someone said it best the other day I saw posted on here If you want to spend $15 wouldnt you want to spend it on a steak or 10 packs of Ramen noodles? The ASG would rather buy the pack of Ramen noodles than buy the steak to make the team have success from a management and player aquisitions standpoint. The Hawks need to change the culture by making some shrewd moves and getting rid of some dead weight on this team.
Think about it. This team isnt bad or a bottom of the rung team that are almost automatic wins for other teams. It really comes down to coaching and the ASG making moves. I am not sure the ASG would acquire Dwight if he said I would come for free or sign him if he said he would sign for a Ham and Cheese sandwich because the ASG will somehow screwup the Ham and Cheese sandwich.
Put Lawrence Frank Dantoni Scott Skiles Doug Collins coaching this Hawks team and they beat Chicago in the playoffs. For some reason that playoff series loss really stings and as Joe Johnson continues somewhat of a gradual but glacier like decline, it becomes obvious he needs help. Horford is who he is. Horford reminds he of a better shooting Otis Thorpe but not as tough physically and is not great physically. Smith I said before for him to be successfully he needs a strong willed and tough minded coach to get on his behind but he is too up and down although he did play well in the Bulls series.
I expect Teague to continue to develop as long as he gets the minutes,. Hinrich will provide veteran leadership. Marvin Williams next. Vava provides toughness but he isnt a 35 minute player. The rest of the players on the team meh. If the Hawks want to stay status quo with the team than they are going to have to upgrade their coach. Maybe if the season is cancelled then that is the last time we have seen LD as head coach for the Hawks
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 12th, 2011
3:53 pm
A Balanced Diet!
Briggs! Wassup baby boy?
To answer your query, I would see the balanced teams of the late 70’s (I became an NBA fan when I moved to Atlanta in ‘86) and, fell onto the bandwagons of Nique and Jordan.
I relish the teams that had stellar and skilled role players like:
Dale Curry
Jerome Kersey
Michael Cooper
Adrian Dantley
AC Green (the 40 year old virgin)
Sam Perkins
et.al
The problem with competitive balance is not, money spent wisely nor, poor assets management.
The problem is an erosion of talent and fundamentAl basketball skills. Todays players are not students of the game, nor do they know the fundamentals of the NBA game.
Dribbling, passing, guarding, mid-range jumpers, blocking shots and, unselfishness are all but gone just to name a few.
I recall when Shaq queried Lenny Wilkens when Lenny coached the USA team at the olympic games in the early 90’s. Shaq asked Lenny, “Coach, did you ever play this game?”
Without ever picking up a book and reading one line, didn’t Shaq recall sharing the ceremony stage with Ole’ Lenny for “The 50 Greatest Players” award and NASCAR designed leather jackets they all received?
________________
How can the illiterate players of today become competitive, when they know nothing about the game of basketball?
Please tell me how?
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 12th, 2011
4:00 pm
* I would “rather” see the balanced teams of the late 70’s
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 12th, 2011
4:06 pm
Fundamentals!
Drawing fouls, making foul shots, moving without the ball, shot selection, the forward pass & give back, running the fast breaks, rebounding, boxing out, chest passes, bounce passes and … and … We could do this all day, but you get the point – right Briggs?
I’m sure you agree with me. Where is the skills?
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
5:16 pm
drmaryb i agree that is the biggest problem fundamentals i started watching late 70’s ball 80’s had good ball even 90’s wasnt asthetic basketball but they played tough hard nosed bball with defnse todays bball more about athleticsm than skill they may be more ahletic but not smarter. whats ur thoughts on the hawks u think we need better coaching, trades management?
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
5:20 pm
yes i remember those guys remember john drew on the hawks i never knew he was married to singer regina belle until recently
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 12th, 2011
5:38 pm
Briggs!
You meant John Battle. Yes Siirrr … Today’s athletes rely more on athleticism than fundamental skills. With multi-media and all, the young guys all wanna’ be on the high light reels, so it’s all about Dunking now.
I like Steve’s Smith take on Top Ten Plays below the rim segments. He features the fundamental plays, pump fakes, head fakes and great passes in the paint.
Oh how we long for the good ole’ days. I wish the current NBPA Union don’t forget about giving back to the old greats who paved their way and are financially struggling right now. The pension plans should be generous, IDK if they are.
Smiling Jack
November 12th, 2011
5:49 pm
I haven’t missed anything!
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 12th, 2011
6:11 pm
Sampled!
MJ stole DrJ’s Signature Dunk and turned it into a millenium icon and, has made a fortune of that!
Shouldn’t the now financially strapped DrJ get a royalty check? Shouldn’t The NBA & MJ cut the old man a check for at least 20M? Find a loophole & write that off under charitable donations? Why not?
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
8:20 pm
drmaryb,
yes john drew. Speaking of Steve Smith one of the worse Hawks trade was the Steve Smith trade for Isiah Rider, a terrible trade. If they had kept that core of Blaylok Smith and Mutombo Hawks team could’ve made ECF one of those years.
Actually drmaryb one of the NBA proposals involved money going back to retired NBA players. Also dr maryb, I am sure you heard about Heavy D now, were you a fan of his?
Speaking of former Hawks remember Ray Williams?He played for the Hawks 85-86 as well as a number of other teams. HIs story is a sad one but he is doing better now but read this four page article about what happend to him after his NBA career ended
http://articles.boston.com/2010-07-02/sports/29288826_1_nba-draft-nba-veteran-nba-finals
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
8:25 pm
Speaking of Dr J I never knew some of the stuff he did until after he retired. This guy covered up a lot of stuff this long article if you have time sums him up pretty good
http://www.phillymag.com/articles/julius_erving_doesnt_want_to_be_a_hero_anymore/page1
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
9:29 pm
drmaryb,
meant to say john battle i did remember him forgot the last name
Najeh Davenpoop
November 12th, 2011
9:39 pm
“If I lived in the USA, I would never eat stadium food, nor drink anything there.”
Haha… you are not alone. I have lived in the USA my entire life and I avoid stadium food like the plague. The last time I was forced to eat stadium food, I asked for nachos at Philips Arena, and they took out a bag of Tostitos, squirted some lukewarm Velveeta on it, and charged me $6 for it.
ILL-Logical
November 12th, 2011
9:53 pm
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/7223340/etan-thomas-questions-nba-labor-negotiations
Slimjr
November 12th, 2011
11:40 pm
King Lebron needs a midrange game or he may end up like Ewing and Barkley!
O'Brien
November 13th, 2011
12:27 am
From Etan Thomas;
When someone buys a fast-food franchise, they don’t just get keys and a congratulations card. They receive instructions on how to successfully operate the business. Instead of the NBA CEOs attempting to create rules to save them from from themselves, wouldn’t the NBA be better off with a training session by David Stern, teaching each NBA CEO how to successfully run his business and avoid the pitfalls of CEOs past?.
O'Brien
November 13th, 2011
12:32 am
Guys,
Please read the article by Etan Thomas that ILL-Logical posted. Good stuff by Etan (imo),
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 13th, 2011
2:54 am
99%
Briggs … In the NBA, what we have are about 1% Super Stars.
Kobe
Durantula
Dwight
DRose
LBJ
DWade
Blake Griffin
Carmelo
CP3
__________
Everybody else are 2nd Tier & Scrubs.
____________
There really is no middle class. Among the 28 teams left out – where is the talent? How can you mAke the league competitive when the league has no fundamentally skilled players. Where did the Dennis Rodman’s go? You got players like Etan Thomas & Otis Thorpe holding down the end of the benches making millions to basically:
Keep the bench warm. Don’t get me started on the lack of quality GM’s & Coaches. I think the NBA is severely broken & they don’t even know how broken they really are.
vava74
November 13th, 2011
3:53 am
brigadierjerry
November 12th, 2011
1:04 pm
You are really good with names!
so I provide toughness but I am not a 35min player:
“Vava provides toughness but he isnt a 35 minute player.”
I like it anyhow.
But seriously: you are right, Zaza is not a 35 minute player BUT he is also not effective playing only 10/15 minutes. He needs his steady diet of 25/30 to bring it every day and, sincerely, if we paired him on the floor always with Josh to complement his skills (Zaza is not a good defender at the rim) I think he could bring us the Laimbeer toughness that we many times lack.
Zaza had a great playoff run and is clearly a playoff ball type of guy.
With the Hawks severely out hustled (in particular with Diaper Al disappearing) how couldn’t LD find more time for Zaza?:
Conf. Semifinals ATL G6 mpg16.0 fg%0.571 ft%0.714 or1.8 dr3.8 rpg5.7 apg0.8 spg0.2 bpg0.0 to1.0 fl3.0 ppg 4.3
brigadierjerry
November 13th, 2011
9:31 am
This was posted by Howard Beck of the NY Times
Hours after the N.B.A. delivered its final collective bargaining proposal to the players union, the rumors and the rhetoric began to flow.
The deal would let teams send players to the development league and cut their pay.
Teams that used certain salary cap exceptions would lose the right to re-sign their own players.
“Bird” rights would be jeopardized.
The middle class would be eliminated.
These and other concerns filled Twitter timelines on Friday, a day after labor talks concluded. They turned out to be unfounded, speculative or simply false.
The D-League is not mentioned anywhere in the seven-page proposal that was delivered to the union on Friday — a copy of which was obtained by The New York Times.
Nor are there any measures that could curtail “Bird” rights. While some provisions might crimp the N.B.A.’s middle class, others could boost it.
In the absence of official documentation — neither the league nor the union released the proposal publicly — the rumors have prevailed. “The revised proposal is worse than the last offer,” Nazr Mohammed, a 13-year veteran, wrote Saturday on Twitter.
That sentiment was echoed by several agents and players. But a review of the N.B.A.’s previous proposal and the revised offer does not support the claim. In many areas, the league improved its offer, albeit modestly.
For instance, the league is now proposing a higher midlevel exception for luxury-tax-paying teams — $3 million for three seasons, and available every year. The league had been proposing a $2.5 million exception for two seasons, and available every other year.
The league also increased the annual raises for “Bird” players. And, at the union’s suggestion, the N.B.A. agreed that the 10-year labor deal could be terminated by either side after the sixth year, instead of the seventh.
Two provisions could conceivably hurt players in the middle of the league’s salary structure. The league wants to ban luxury-tax-paying teams from using the full midlevel exception ($5 million) and from making sign-and-trade deals. To partly compensate, the league last week created a new exception, worth $2.5 million, for up to two seasons, for teams that are just below the cap. In the past, teams with cap room were not permitted to use any exceptions, even after they surpassed the cap in a given off-season.
The league also proposed raising the minimum team salary to 90 percent of the salary cap by the 2013-14 season, which should increase spending by the more frugal franchises.
One of the N.B.A.’s new demands does leap out: a call for a 12 percent reduction in rookie and minimum-scale contracts, cutting them to 2007-8 levels.
That provision was not listed in the prior proposal, which was sent to the union Nov. 6.
The ban on luxury-tax-paying teams using midlevel exceptions and sign-and-trade deals — a major concern to agents — may have a minimal effect. Since 2005, only four players have been acquired by luxury-tax-paying teams through sign-and-trade deals. Those teams used the full midlevel exception only nine times in that period.
Moreover, because the N.B.A. guarantees the players a set percentage of revenues — 50 percent, about $2 billion a year — any shortfall in total salaries has to be made up to the players.
The speculation about teams losing “Bird” rights seems to be based on a misreading of one particular provision governing teams that move into the luxury tax. The simple explanation is that if a team is going to cross the tax threshold using multiple exceptions, it has to sign its “Bird” player first.
As for the D-League, the N.B.A. does want to grant teams the right to send any player with up to five years experience to its minor league. However, that provision is not contained in the proposal that is now up for union approval. Rather, it is one of 30 to 40 secondary items that have yet to be negotiated. Those items are typically discussed after the main framework of a deal is approved.
By any measure, the proposed deal would be a major win for the owners. The players are being asked to take a $280 million pay cut, with shorter contracts, lower raises and tighter restrictions on the top-spending teams. But league officials insist that the deal is not nearly as bad as the rumor mill suggests.
“It’s of grave concern to the league that there is an enormous amount of misinformation concerning our proposal, both on Twitter and in the more traditional media,” Adam Silver, the deputy commissioner, said Saturday night. “We believe that if the players are fully informed as to what is and is not in our proposal, they will agree that its terms are beneficial to them and represent a fair compromise.”
vava,
sorry about the name messup but you get my drift
slimjr,
You said Lebron needs a midrange game or else he will be like Barkley or Ewing?Is that to imply Barkley and Ewing didnt have a midrange game or never won a ring because Ewing and Barkley had a midrange game especially Ewing who was more of a jumpshooter than postup although he did have postup moves. Also not sure comparing Power and Center to a Lebron James unless you talking about Lebron would never win a title. Make sure to pour some lquid out for death of NY raised Heavy D when you get the chance.
Briggs … In the NBA, what we have are about 1% Super Stars.
Kobe
Durantula
Dwight
DRose
LBJ
DWade
Blake Griffin
Carmelo
CP3
__________
Everybody else are 2nd Tier & Scrubs.
____________
There really is no middle class.
drmaryb, The only thing I would say is i think they are middle class but they are players like Jamal Crawford and the like what i consider middle class but yes you are right talent has definetely dropped off from about late 90’s.
I saw Etan Thomas quote which is very interesting. I am all for players getting the most of what they can get. I just dont see the 2nd Tier and middle class holding out long enough where they will be able to survive missing multiple paychecks.
Here is an interesting quote from Nazr Mohammed
Nazr Mohammad:
If this deal is accepted…I advise guys to stay in school and get ur degree, Master’s if possible. U might be able to make more $ that.
NazrMohammed Nazr Mohammed
This deal is so bad that it amazes me that the league would bring this to the table after all the concessions we have already made…
2 minutes ago
NazrMohammed Nazr Mohammed
…The revised proposal is worse than the last offer. Players should contact the union, call ur Rep or go to a meeting. U gotta see this!!!
doc
November 13th, 2011
5:08 pm
vava provides toughness and it seems he nevrr sleeps
doc
November 13th, 2011
5:56 pm
vava if for a minute i thiught it was about competitive balance i would support it but it just isnt: again i say it is to protect themselves in profiteering not making the overalk priduct better. if so there would be more profit dharing among the oaners, less interest in demanding a huge step back for the union but maybe saying we will pay as much but guarantee salaries for three years or based on
production make movement from team to team easier to rebuild the bad and many other things that
would open up yhe game for more competition.
read etan’s insight edpecially the one’s sugfesting how bad management is. again i say nothing will make some of these rich guys into smart basketball minds. there will be more riles to steal from the gilberts who had eight years to put it together while he made a biatload of money of labron. remembrr greed didnt take labron to miami as he could have racked up about 20 more mil to stwy in cleveland. he wanted to find out how a good basketball organization does it and got to within minutes if winning it all.
vava down soith we have a saying that is rooted in football and was used to describe great football coaches bear bryant specifically:
he can win with yourin or hisins.
that will still be the standard as some nwers will want to win and be smarter in figuring it out than others. footballs worst example in a league that really sells an inferior product based on its unequal scheduling to help the worst and penalize the best in the detroit lions and mat millen as gmas exihibit a. and he is an expert broadcaster now. go figure.
Andrew
November 13th, 2011
6:13 pm
Amazing video of a high school player from Columbia TN who kicks the ball dead straight 80-85 yards in the air. He was successful on 54 of 54 attempts this season….100%. Now he needs a college team.
Watch for yourself…it is unreal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JKwgwFY3g
O'Brien
November 13th, 2011
7:23 pm
I’m with doc.
I dont think its about competetive balance. i think its about owners wanting to make $.
Worldwide Clyde
November 13th, 2011
8:15 pm
FIRE SUND
Worldwide Clyde
November 13th, 2011
8:21 pm
Let the NBA stay locked out. As Hawks fans we have nothing to look forward to. Bad owners, a bad GM, a franchise player that’s really a role player, and a center that let’s people shot uncontested layups. Its hard out here for a Hawks fan.
Hey Najeh are you cranking up the fantasy league this year?
FIRE LD
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 13th, 2011
9:31 pm
Confusion Abounds!
Briggs! Great job of reporting and sharing the New Deal!
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’m more confused than ever. I admit my NBA contract tools aren’t the sharpest in the box, but, I can hold my own with the best of ‘em.
I just hope the players can figure it out as well, re: the nuances of this deal and if it is good for the players now and in the future.
doc
November 13th, 2011
11:15 pm
big$$$$$$ o’b
dern those bees man
Slimjr
November 14th, 2011
1:23 am
Ewing and Barkley have zero rings.. Lebron is on his way….He better own that mid-range real-state..But he’s clueless about that so I dont expect his game to get any better. He wont get rings without that in between game…
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
1:30 am
Late to the party;
I tried to read everything and comprehended scarcely any.
[I've been so elated over my Dawgs, I've almost forgotten the lockout]
Now – to respond to some and chime in with others:
Brig-Jerry;
Mr West is correct, there was more balance and more *stars*
*[term stars - used loosely as basketball was more team oriented]
In those days;
It was Russell & Chamberlain then everyone else. (SuperduperStars)
**[no espn]
Players like West and Oscar were in the next level. SuperStaers)
But then you had all sorts of HOF level players
who at the time were not hyped up:
Bellamy, Thurmond, Hal Greer, Pettit, Lucas, the Jonses (Sam & KC)
my guy @ the time Bailey Howell, Hondo, and maybe the most under-rated
player of all time – Elgin Baylor.
The Big thing was … every team had a quality Center.
I mean a “Jim-dandy” center ! … and most had a starting line-up
capable of competing.
The “championship” difference; was Wilt & Russell’
hence ” ” ” SuperDuperStars ” ” ” !
Nowadays;
everybody can play. – Sure.
The difference is people want teams with “Stars”;
-Not- teams that are Teams !
But – who decides who is a star ?
espn & TBS & Dick Vitale (college), Hubie, Van Gundy,
Barkley, Kenny, Stephen A., Sekou, Hollinger, Simmons, et al.
They tell us who the stars are.
It’s just like politics – the media chooses who we like or dislike.
-anyway-
Competitive Balance- I’m all for it.
I honestly think the small markets are for it as a way to make money.
doc says it’s greed – okay – still I think the hard line owners want it.
I Really, Really, Really, think Stern does as well.
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
2:06 am
Brig-Jerry:
-picking up where I left off-
my computer decided to go ahead & submit comment
before I was finished. (Just did it on it’s own)
Finishing up … I think Stern is thinking about his legacy.
Personnally, Competitive Balance, to me is exciting.
I don’t give a shooshoo if Toledo plays Hahira in the …
NBA Championship Game as long as they are the two …
” Best Teams ” !
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
2:19 am
West and Oscar were *Stars *[not staers]
“I honestly think the small markets are for it as a way to make money”
** owners
I left out -owners-
____________________________________________________
Stern & referees make stars as well;
*** D.Wade *** … also LeBron
____________________________________________________
Last Note for Mary Ellen and others:
Stern & Silver Say:
paraphrase;
“the D-League rule is -NOT- in the compromise offered to the players”
vava74
November 14th, 2011
2:57 am
Listen people, it’s always about the money, but the road to keep franchise afloat implies that you need to have mechanisms that enhance competitive balance.
They need to avoid what happened last year (MIA, NYK,…) with the concentration of stars on one side and the loss of stars in smaller markets.
CLE still had good attendance out of spite but that is difficult to sustain without a star. DEN ended up reasonably competitive but who was/is there to draw people next year?
And attendance (and attention) goes hand with income derived from sponsorship/advertising, …
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
4:21 am
Brig-Jerry / doc / Mary Ellen & my many other friends:
Upon further review, I think the league is very similar to yesteryear:
(1) SuperDuperStars:
LeBron & Kobe
LeBron so similar to Wilt – immense skill,
yet not a winner of Championships.
______________________________________
*D Howard so very close.
** but when one compares D Howard to the Truly Great Centers;
he falls short. (Wilt, Russell, Kareem, & Shaq)
______________________________________
(2) Stars:
D.Wade, (over-rated, inflated statistics) Howard, Durant, Dirk,
Paul, * [Garnett, Pierce, Duncan, Nash] …
* (once upon a time, but no longer)
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Folks that’s about it for true stars;
[think HOF].
______________________________________
Next really, really good players that you want on your team;
but not stars:
(3) Pau Gasol, Kevin Love, Rose (gonna be a star, almost there)
[Most people would have Melo & Amare @ least this high]
Chris Bosh
______________________________________
(4) Worker Bees:( have skill but missing elements)
Rondo, Joakim Noah, Horford,
______________________________________
(5) Good, Not great, (all-stars) “little a, little s”
Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge,
Al Jefferson,
_____________________________________
(6) Young bucks:
Wall, Griffin, Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook,
Eric Gordon
______________________________________
(7) AAU players:
[exciting, physically gifted, no foundation]
Josh Smith, Tyreke Evans, DeMarcus Cousins,
Brandon Jennings, Derrick Favors
_____________________________________
(8) Coach Killers: (or Gen Mgr killers)
Deron Williams, Brook Lopez, Carlos Boozer, Baron Davis,
Andrea Bargnani, Marvin Williams, Evan Turner, Jeff Green
_____________________________________
(9) Can’t figure ‘em out / SuperDuperTalented
Zach Randolph, Michael Beasley (well), Yi Jianlian,
JaVale McGee
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
4:33 am
Note:
Zach Randolph in that category due to
up and down career.
If he keeps up his current level;
he moves to level (2)
last category:
__________________________________
(10) Bigs – over-rated ’cause their Bigs:
Andrew Bynum *(if he overcomes injuries he will move up)
*[will move to young bucks]
Marc Gasol, Andrew Bogut (good not a star), Nene, Tyson Chandler
(etc, etc, etc.)
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
5:16 am
NBA “leaked” proposal obtained by USA today:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba%20proposal%2011-11-2011.pdf
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
5:34 am
drmaryb, grandad,
True you are not going to see players that have skills that dominated like this player below. Those days are gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
5:37 am
I will say Nash, CP3 and those type are great passers. Sadly those type of passers/point guards are fading out and you will see more of the combo point guards such as drose, westbrook, etc
drmaryb .[*_*].
November 14th, 2011
8:21 am
Blog on Fiyah!
The Morning Joe Award goes to:
My Grand- Daddy
The Brigadier Jerry
This is like a $14 muffin to go with my Cup of Joe.
Literally, Just Too Much Good Stuff. I especially like the way G-Daddy broke down the talent pool levels in the NBA today. Spot on.
doc
November 14th, 2011
8:59 am
agree with grandad having been there to experience the 70’s. boston dominsnce over, russell chamberlain with thurmand on the side went into an abundance of big men with tools to play the game. almost every team had a good big including milwaukee where alcindor fell. walton came along as did the big e. we watched these grow up in collehe ss they honed their skills.
today bigs never get it and are very overpaid just to fill space pr worse. the loss of time in colege probably hurt them worse than any as they wrre never forced tp do mich more yhan catch and dunk before they got to the pros.
i also think the stern influenced referees gor the advertising dollar has cripped the game as well. calling gsmes accorfing to star rules than written rules has been abhorent and the biggeet factor on the decline of competition. it is why i laugh at this competitive nonsense through collective bargaining as the game will still be paid for by advertisers and tv revenues that all the rich boys share in. if i am an owner of a market that is not for tv them i want a package where i makw money and still dont have to have a good team and i dont have to play by stern wink wink rules to get it. i dont think the league can afford to dismiss the media market darlings unless they are clearly run by idiots like dolan in nyc. it is too big to fsil so it gets a pass even under a horrendous scandel.
doc
November 14th, 2011
9:06 am
as an addendum to above statement where maybe but not really powerful men feeding on women may be only a minimal step up than those feeding on children for sexual favors. to think dolan is still around with isiah thomas lurking in the background is disgusting.
vava74
November 14th, 2011
9:31 am
Grandad,
I would start outright by disagreeing vehemently on your view about Howard.
Howard is a mediocre ball player who is protected by the league and would foul out after 20 minutes of play every single game if it wasn’t for Stern’s protection.
A good, fundamental defensive player like Collins exposed that easily and repeatedly.
A couple of years ago, he decked Horford with an elbow jab to his mouth – resulting in bleeding by Al and Howard’s dunk – in a tight game.
Consequence of that play: ORL cemented a certain dominance – mostly psychological if you removed the actual talent differential – against the Hawks – subsequently confirmed on the 4-0 playoff trouncing – and Al completed his transformation from Boss to Diaper Al.
MAJOR CONSEQUENCES deriving from blatant favouritism and ref protection simply because Howard is a marquee brand in the NBA.
By the time we reached the playoffs, Diaper Al’s strategy to deal with Howard was “let me move out of the way sir! Please dunk at will…”
brigadierjerry
November 14th, 2011
10:01 am
doc good point i think if howard played in 90’s with good big men back then with olajuwon, ewing smits robinson mourning mutumbo shaq he would be considered overrated. his defense is overrated relies on athletic to block shots would i have him on y team yes but compare how he plas defense to the bigs in the 90’s or even power forwards in 90’s. i heard orlando magic team accepted the deal
Grandad
November 14th, 2011
11:52 am
vava
” I would start outright by disagreeing vehemently
on your view about Howard ”
vava – I really, seriously appreciate your gentlemanly disagreeing
with my appraisal.
That is what this blog is about.
Now, I stand by my assessment, but respect your opinion.
Now, if I may ?
Your …” Diaper Al “… moniker has run it’s course.
Some thought it was cute.
I never did.
It is -now- passe.
Please give it up; as Al is a valued Hawk & I am a Big fan
of both Al and more so the Hawks !
With all due respect.
Thanks Grandad.
vava – as always your criticisms of me are welcome.