Atlanta Hawks: Amnesty now?
Let’s assume the lockout eventually ends (please) and that two of the provisions reported by both SI’s Sam Amick and Howard Beck of the New York Times both are part of the new CBA: an amnesty clause and a “stretch” provision.
Beck reports that there is a “tentative agreement” for both items, while Amick says the amnesty clause is “resolved” and the stretch provision is “mostly resolved.” It’s also worth noting that David Stern has said more than once that there’s no deal on anything without a deal on everything.
Let’s also assume that Alex Meruelo will be approved to assume majority ownership of the Hawks in the near future. Should he/will he take advantage of these new CBA provisions right away? If so, on which player(s) should he use them?
First, the details of each provision as outlined by Beck and Amick:
- Under the amnesty clause, teams would be able to waive one player (already under contract) over the life of the CBA and the player’s salary cap would not be . Repeat: this will not be available for future contracts. It’s also not clear if the amnesty clause can be used on a player acquired via trade.
- The “stretch” provision would allow teams to waive a player and then spread the money owed out beyond the length of the contract. Both Amick and Beck say the formula is double the amount of years remaining on the contract, plus one. So if a player with two years and $10 million left on his contract is waived, he will be paid the $10 million over five years, or $2 million per year, with that amount also counting against the team’s annual cap payroll for five years. (Amick reports that the provision can be used once per year.)
Over at ESPN.com, Marc Stein and Chad Ford nominate Marvin Williams as Atlanta’s most likely candidate for the amnesty clause:
Sources with knowledge of the Hawks’ thinking insist that the team isn’t ready to give up on Williams. Atlanta apparently still thinks that, at worst, it can deal him away, despite the Hawks’ inability to find any sort of trade market for Williams up to now. The fact that Atlanta’s ownership situation remains highly unsettled, thanks to the latest revelations about Alex Meruelo’s attempt to buy the franchise potentially collapsing, might also buy Williams some more time in the ATL.
Yet most rival teams believe that, at some point in whatever amnesty window is ultimately made official, Williams and the remaining money on his deal ($25 million through 2013-14) have to go. . . .
Seems to me there’s some contradiction here. If the Hawks haven’t given up on Williams, then why did they shop him at trade deadline in each of the last two seasons? They certainly would trade Marvin if they could but there’s just been no market for him.
Anyway, the thing that makes Marvin a more likely candidate for the amnesty clause than J.J. is that the salary still must be paid after a player is waived. Do you think Meruelo would rather eat the $25 million owed to Marvin, a player who can be replaced by a player making less money, or be on the hook for $107 million to J.J. who–while making superstar money without superstar production–would be much more difficult to replace?
Wiping away J.J.’s salary now with the amnesty clause and keeping Marvin would make Atlanta’s committed payroll look like this over the next five seasons (not counting non-guaranteed deals and prorated amounts for canceled games and assuming Marvin exercises his $8.05 million option for 2013-15):
- $47.0 million for six players in 2011-12
- $41.8 million for five players in 2012-13
- $20 million for two players in 2013-14 (not counting Teague’s qualifying offer
- $12 million for two players in 2014-15
- $12 million for two players in 2015-16.
Wiping away Marvin’s salary now and keeping J.J. would make Atlanta’s committed payroll look like this over the next five seasons (not counting pro-rated salaries for canceled games or non-guaranteed deals):
- $57.0 million for six players in 2011-12
- $53.5 million for five players in 2012-13
- $32.5 million for two players in 2013-14 (not counting Teague’s qualifying offer)
- $35.2 million in 2014-15
- $36.9 million in 2015-16.
Assuming the cap continues to hover at about $60 million, the Hawks would gain significant and immediate relief by waiving J.J using the amnesty clause. They would have to wait until 2013-14 to see dramatic cap benefits from waiving Marvin using the amnesty.
But could the Hawks use the “stretch” provision to get better results?
Waiving Marvin using that mechanism would spread his $25 million over seven years (3 x 2 +1). The cap figures for each of those seven years would be 25/7, or about $3.6 million. It might be better to live with Marvin’s salary for at least another year (or two years, and then try to trade his expiring contract in 2013-14) than spread it out for what would be moderate cap savings.
Waiving J.J. now using the “stretch” provision would mean spreading the $107 million over 11 years (5 x 2 +1). The cap figure for each year would be 107/11, or about $9.72 million. That seems like too much dead money for too many years (and writing “dead money” makes me feel like I’m back covering the NFL).
A lot of this, of course, depends on Meruelo’s strategy, which is difficult to ascertain since the lockout gag order comes with the threat of hefty fines from the league and Meruelo hasn’t even taken control of the team yet. (These are also the reasons it’s been impossible to write anything meaningful about the Hawks, but I digress.)
Is Meruelo willing to eat salary and then also double down by adding to the payroll to replace the player(s) let go? Does he even have the cash flow to do so even if he wanted to? Or would the reported lack of cash flow make Meruelo even more likely to use the stretch provision on J.J. and then not try to replace him with comparable player, thus trimming Meruelo’s annual expenses significantly while tying up long-term cap money (and no doubt angering my blog people)?
Would ASG be willing to waive players and then add payroll while the sale of the team is in limbo? Would ASG do it if the sale of the team falls through? If so, would the current owners use one of the provisions now or leave that to the next buyer, assuming they find another one?
Shoot, could they even wait to use the amnesty or stretch provision? Just getting the roster to the minimum would push them over the current luxury-tax threshold, and I’m assuming that still is a no go no matter which owner(s) calls the shots.
My hope is that soon after the lockout ends the answers to these and so many other Hawks questions will finally be answered.
Etc.
Dinamo Sassari waived Hawks draftee Keith “Kito” Benson. Benson’s mother, Janice Hale, called it a “mutual parting of ways” and said Benson will work out at Oakland (Mich.) University with a focus on building his strength. Sportando Basket tweeted me a take on Benson’s departure. . . .
I’ve called and emailed Zaza to check on the reports of his injury but haven’t heard back yet. Will update if/when I do. . . .
It turns out Damien Wilkins’ “Monster Slam” exhibition game on Saturday will be at Clark Atlanta after all. Tickets and info are available here. . . .
Hoopinion notes that Pape Sy had a good game. . . .
Peachtree Hoops is part of a black-white thing. . . .
If you want to help ensure the comments stay open, please shoot me an email directly (mcunningham at ajc.com) if there is a troll issue. That way I can take care of it quickly and leave the thread open. The online complaint form does not come directly to me so usually I don’t see it until much later, if at all, and by then the comments are subject to being closed by the tech folks without my knowledge.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
165 comments Add your comment
Najeh Davenpoop
November 1st, 2011
6:33 pm
Joe still has trade value and on the court value. Marvin has very little of each. Amnesty Marvin.
A concerned fan..
November 1st, 2011
7:09 pm
2nd.
MrNique
November 1st, 2011
7:11 pm
At first, I thought we should for sure Amnesty Marvin. But reading this article, I think it might be better to trade him when/if we can. Getting rid of him doesn’t get us under the cap, so it’ll be hard to replace him anyway.
Robert Yates
November 1st, 2011
7:14 pm
Marvin is one of the rare guys that give ME psychic powers every time I watch him play. “Dude, watch him trip and bust his a$$ in a sec.” “Hey check it out…If they give it to Marv on the fast break he’s gonna run right into the guy in front of him.”
James
November 1st, 2011
7:17 pm
Joe was given one of the worst contracts in the history of pro sports..Trade value?
pitifulasgllc
November 1st, 2011
7:23 pm
Can the Hawks use the amnesty to get rid of Rick Sund?
It will be an UGLY salary cap situation no matter what direction they take. The Joe Johnson contract will hamstring the Hawks for foreseeable future. That ship has sailed and will be the ASG’s gift that keeps on giving long after they have crawled back under a rock.
Keep them coming MC. We’re counting on you.
Michael Cunningham
November 1st, 2011
7:30 pm
@James: “Joe was given one of the worst contracts in the history of pro sports..Trade value?”
remember the Knicks and Bulls were ready to give him the max they could last summer, five years and about $95 million. would they or any other team now be willing to take on the five years and $107 million left? in exchange, would the Hawks be willing to take on the bad salaries (with shorter contracts) that almost certainly would be part of such a deal?
Grandmaster JeJe
November 1st, 2011
7:33 pm
Amnesty Marvin
Grandmaster JeJe
November 1st, 2011
7:39 pm
I wrote ” Amnesty Marvin” even before I read this blog.
Grandmaster JeJe
November 1st, 2011
7:41 pm
Yates LMAO I’m that dude too.
Duck got stuffed by Luther Head 4 yrs ago at home vs Houston. That is one thing I will never forget in 60 years
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 1st, 2011
7:42 pm
Mmmm…Hmmmm!
What Najeh said when he was FIRST!!!!
-do marvin- I’m done with this guy’s potential on the court and thusly, I question his fire & desire in the heart and head regions. Pack Marvin’s bags – puh-lease!
(3 mins later). … He still here?
FreshFromAtl
November 1st, 2011
7:46 pm
Hey MC,
Are we back to ‘regularly scheduled’ programming now on the blog?
You know....
November 1st, 2011
9:19 pm
what’ll happen to Marvin? The hawks will amnesty him out of town. The growth experience of being shown the door will make a man out of him and he will play like gangbusters for some team like the clippers…
Brick
November 1st, 2011
10:47 pm
These players dont know how good they have it. Unions destroyed many companies in the USA,and this could be the next to fall. Take your greed and go home and work in fast food joints. I am sick of this
A concerned fan..
November 1st, 2011
11:03 pm
What made marvin walk like that?
jlewis
November 1st, 2011
11:54 pm
Good point MC, people forget Joe was going to get paid either way. If Joe is the player thats gone, who replaces him, I dont see any 6′8 2 guards in the NBA or in college.
Michael Cunningham
November 1st, 2011
11:59 pm
@FreshFromAtl: “Hey MC, Are we back to ‘regularly scheduled’ programming now on the blog?”
“regularly scheduled” as in in the programming provided when there is actual league activity to cover? i don’t think that’s feasible. unfortunately the lockout and ownership limbo, and the info blackout associated with both, make it difficult to write with any authority or insight about the Hawks. i don’t like it, either, but that’s where we are.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
12:03 am
@Brick: “These players dont know how good they have it. Unions destroyed many companies in the USA,and this could be the next to fall. Take your greed and go home and work in fast food joints. I am sick of this”
these players are not like regular workers. they are a small workforce that generates $4 billion in revenue. they are not just the labor, they also are the product. they’ve already given a lot of concessions. how does any of this make them ‘greedy’?
Grandmaster JeJe
November 2nd, 2011
12:10 am
Lockout was rumored to be ending last saturday. Ughhhhh *yawn*
Grandad
November 2nd, 2011
12:45 am
Michael;
there may not be a boat-load of Hawks info
to bring forth.
But, you see how fast we come to life
when the blog is open.
kinda like drmaryb said:
“type a period or a comma, we’ll show up”.
There is NBA news – which directly impacts the Hawks.
We of course do not understand your dynamics At the AJC,
however, it seems you’re not losing $ just by keeping the blog open.
*[By you're, I mean AJC]
It appears there is advertising on the blog.
But what do I know ?
Grandad
November 2nd, 2011
1:10 am
I realize you said:
“It’s also not clear if the amnesty clause
can be used on a player acquired via trade”
Though it seems to me;
If a traded player can be amnestied,
then a whole new mkt opens up for Joe.
Take on a player:
say;
Brandon Roy (hypothetically)
plus another highly functional player from Portland,
perhaps Gerald Wallace,
amnesty Brandon Roy … voila !
Portland replaces Roy with a duplicate player.
Hawks get a terrific [3] forward. (tough minded defender)
Hawks save $30 mil by amnestying Roy.
Hypothetical I understand:
Would we have to throw in another player or pick – maybe ?
But imaginative, forward thinking, & innovative.
Does anyone actually think Rick Sund could pull
a rabbit out of his hat such as this ?
I think not.
Why ? – ’cause he sits at his desk & waits to be fleeced.
My point is Sund doesn’t seem to try !
EmirS.
November 2nd, 2011
2:06 am
Look I’ll be honest,
I’ve said it before….I don’t understand the money aspect of the game. I don’t care. Both sides are going to make more money then almost all of us here regardless how the new CBA turns out. I read the Amnesty clause and the “stretch” clause, understood it (somehow) but did not care.
I just want to watch basketball. I’m not a hockey fan. I can’t even check the standings to see where the Thrashers are. Baseball is over (Congratulations to the Cardinals) so I can’t check nightly standings to see if the Braves are leading the division [not that much of a baseball fan]. I’m not that much into college sports, however I would like to point out that the Yellow Jackets put a whooping on those Tigers!
All I want…is to watch basketball. Judge every single player based on my opinions of them. Hear rumors of trades. Listen to Bob Rathbun and Dominique broadcast the games. See a last second play where the Hawks win [Jamal vs Suns]. Argue with our blog people on who the Hawks need to trade/keep. Etc, etc, etc, etc……………..!
Did I mention the NFL games are played on Sundays. Well Mondays to but the last few…have been horrific.
I miss the NBA. *sarcastic tear input*
EmirS.
November 2nd, 2011
2:07 am
Yes…I miss Dominique’s play by plays. -___-
judy
November 2nd, 2011
6:22 am
I say keep Joe. He is the best player on team and the team wouldn’t be where they are today if it wasn’t for him.Go Joe and the Hawks!!!!!!!!!!!! I can’t wait until the games to start.A true fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
richbrave
November 2nd, 2011
8:00 am
No news is not good news unfortunately. The entire season is in peril just as I said it would be.
Fortunately I’m getting a lot of work done by boycotting ice hockey, a truely wretched ’sport’, and blogging up on the BRAVES.
mountain_jim
November 2nd, 2011
8:04 am
Appreciate the new blog, MC. Jush wish the Hawks were not still the all-time most dis-functional ownership/management group.
Fire Sund!
dap01
November 2nd, 2011
8:28 am
JJ’s contract is the problem. Marvin’s $7 million is not the problem. Marvin is NOT living up to that contract but JJ’s contract is crippling our team for years. His contract will force the Hawks to “start over” in the rebuilding process.
JJ is not earning his contract and it is likely to be more painful each year as the contract goes forward.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
8:44 am
Be Careful!
Be careful what you wish for. Before Joe came here, (willingly, I might add) the Hawks were a 13 win team. Had he left, we would have reverted to the 13 win levels.
Do we really want to become the Clippers, who let all their young talent walk to save a few dollars? I think not. Being competitive and persistent 2 round benchmarks sure does make for interesting talk.
The real question is: How do we become elite and contenders for a title or just an appearance in the semi or finals? Why are we always a PG & Center away for 13 years straight? Our magic number appears to be:
You guessed right fellas – it’s 13! Wow! Such an unlucky number.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
8:52 am
MC
Thank You for addressing the “Antics” that plague healthy blog communications that keep us all on topic here. I know you (AJC) can’t block every Starbucks in town, but a better blog login/ID system would address the mutiple ID users and make your job easier as well.
Good Luck with that. Meanwhile, back at the ranch: the Hawks are who we thought they were – The Hawks!
Looks like Meruelo will need to “Show Stern The Money” before he gains a sale approval. They just want to see his wares. I honestly believe Mr. Meruelo has the capital, but is a shrewd negotiator, in that, if you can use someone elses money, why use yours? Let’s hope Alex “Show them The Money!” And, soon.
Astro Joe
November 2nd, 2011
9:29 am
Dumping Marvin would be a symbolic move that will not likely result in more wins. If the Hawks are going to improve the roster, it won’t be by eliminating one of the least productive players (while leaving little cap space to sign an impact player). Improving the roster will require making trades and in order to dfo that most effectively, the coaching staff needs to help increase the value of certain players. If you want to improve the roster, trade high… when players are considered productive and or promising. Don’t trade low.
dap01
November 2nd, 2011
9:32 am
If we did not have Joe last year, we could have found 3 good players for the money he was paid. That does not translate into 13 wins.
Fact is, the Hawks have little to hope for as for a improvements for several years. We are average and getting worse.
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
9:39 am
Dmb,
Although I’m glad JJ signed with the Hawks when he did, I don’t put too much stock into him coming here “willingly”.
1) He was not going to get paid what he wanted in Phoneix
2) He did not want to be 3rd tier to Nash and Amare (would he have made 5 AS teams?)
3) He wanted to be closer to Arkansas
Just my opinion, but JJ gained a lot by coming to the Hawks, just as the Hawks gained a lot by signing JJ.
Say It Aint So
November 2nd, 2011
9:45 am
The only thinh missing concerning Marvin is watching him run off the bench to enter a game and tripping because his sneakers are not tied. Are you kidding me. ASG has destroyed any hope of this ATL franchise winning a championship or being consistantly good.
HawksHomer
November 2nd, 2011
9:47 am
The part I’m missing from the committed salaries is, what would our cap look like with the waived player gone. With JJ missing if you say that salary cap is 60 million that means we have a cap of 50 million for the next 11 years, ouch. With Marvin gone it would be 57 million for 5 years. I don’t know if you really want to waive either of them in that case unless you have an owner with really deep pockets and with a highly paid player the cap hit is way too much.
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
9:50 am
Dap01,
If we did not have Joe last year, we could have found 3 good players for the money he was paid..
The Hawks are over the salary cap, so even though JJ was getting $17 mil last year, the Hawks would not have been able to sign 3 players for that $17 mil. If I’m not mistaken, they would have had ~$8 mil available.
If the Hawks didn’t want to pay JJ, then they should have worked out a SNT for him, with either the Knicks or the Bulls. Looking at what the Nuggets got from the Knicks (for Melo), I think the Hawks could have gotten some (not all) of those pieces for JJ.
But this being the Hawks, ASG and Rick Sund, I have very little confidence in them to make a good deal no matter which road they decided to take.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
10:06 am
The Usual Suspects!
Too Much Good Stuff from O’Brien as usual. You covered my rebuttal re: 3 impact players for JJ with only 8M available to spend and sign with. Nuff said re: all that!
My work here is done. A SNT was the only option if Sund really wanted to move JJ – Which we all know Sund never showed any desire to do that. We need a minimum of 2/3 Super-Stars (so it seems), people! We don’t even have ONE! Nam’ one!
Astro Joe
November 2nd, 2011
10:06 am
If the owner of the Hawks (whomever that happens to be), employs the amnesty clause on Marvin… let’s just say that his out-of-pocket expense for the team goes from around $70M to around $74M (assumes we sign a $4M substitute for Marvin). Well, that would equate to previously going about $2M into luxury tax territory in the previous few seasons… something that the owners have not been willing to do. Again, amnesty works best for owners who have the deep pockets to differentiate “cap salary relief” from “out-of-pocket” expenses. They have either a strong enough revenue stream to ignore out-of-pocket implications or have the organic wealth not to care about true bottom line expense. I don’t think that is true of the Hawks owner (again, whomever that owner may be). Want to fix the Hawks? As it was in the past, hire the best possible coaching staff (a $3-4M investment) and/or make some trades. Amnesty doesn’t seem the likely tool to employ.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
10:35 am
@Grandad: “there may not be a boat-load of Hawks info to bring forth. But, you see how fast we come to life when the blog is open. kinda like drmaryb said: “type a period or a comma, we’ll show up”.”
when i first got this gig, a commenter–i can’t remember who–said something to the effect of: “MC, everyone here loves you now. eventually many will come to hate you. this is what happened to Sekou. the truth is, you could just type an ‘x’ and just let everyone run their mouths in the comments.”
“There is NBA news – which directly impacts the Hawks. We of course do not understand your dynamics At the AJC,”
sometimes i don’t understand them, either. let’s just say most of us take orders from someone. i will do my best to make sure there is always a place to comment but my blog people can help greatly by emailing me directly with troll problems.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
10:37 am
@drmaryb “MC, Thank You for addressing the “Antics” that plague healthy blog communications that keep us all on topic here. I know you (AJC) can’t block every Starbucks in town, but a better blog login/ID system would address the mutiple ID users and make your job easier as well.”
we had a meeting on the topic a few weeks back where they told us a new registration system is expected to debut in January. can’t wait.
KBP
November 2nd, 2011
10:57 am
Marvin is a much better player than Hawks fans give him credit for. His decline in scoring over the last two years is a result of our Iso-Joe offense and this faux ball movement now under Drew. Look at his shot attempts during 2007-08 and look at his ppg average. He is clearly the 2nd best perimeter shooter and can defend other 3’s on the perimeter and is a good rebounder. He would flourish in NJ, SA(better fit than Richard Jefferson), LAL(much better shooter than Matt Barnes), Bos, Philly(much better shooter than Igoudala). I love the Hawks and I am a Marvin fan, would love to see him get a better ooportunity to contribute offensively. Will not happen here.
Dr. Warren
November 2nd, 2011
11:04 am
The absurdity of JJ’s contract becomes more evident as time passes. And the Hawks’ financial conundrum, coupled with the ownership uncertainty, combined with the lock-out, makes this almost feel like a 1970’s era situation when the league was at a low point. ‘
Najeh Davenpoop
November 2nd, 2011
11:09 am
“Did I mention the NFL games are played on Sundays. Well Mondays to but the last few…have been horrific.”
This Monday is going to be good, though. Vick vs. the Bears.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
11:09 am
I’m Outa Here!
“1) He was not going to get paid what he wanted in Phoneix
2) He did not want to be 3rd tier to Nash and Amare (would he have made 5 AS teams?)
3) He wanted to be closer to Arkansas”
-O’Brien-
____________
Great points made here, although I agree vehemently with points 2 & 3 up there, point 1 brings me to chime in:
It was reported many times that Joe told the Phoenix GM, “Do NOT match the Hawks offer, I’m outa’ here!”
So IMHO, Mr. Johnson wanted out and his desire was to see if he could “Be The Man” on his own team. The Hawks filled the bill from that standpoint. Even when Steve Belkin rose up and tried to block his deal, he stayed fast! Joe could have thrown in the towel rather than come to a franchise, where he perceived – he was NOT wanted. Joe could have easily picked any team he wanted. I’m sure Boston would have loved to take him back. Just my .02 cents worth of an opinion.
Here’s my point: I’m glad Mr. Johnson is here, but just like LBJ, DWade, Dirk & DRose et.al. (legit super stars) can’t and haven’t won anything on their own? Why do we expect so much more from Joe Johnson. He isn’t even on that level, in any way, whatsoever.
Even the guys I just mentioned have found this to be fundamentally true. And, I put parenthesis around the word – (fundamentally). But, that’s a topic for another blog day.
Just, get Joe some help! A PG & Center would be a nice start. Since Mookie & Dikembe left? We still wait for the basic essential needs of a balance roster. (smh) Cearly! We need a Real GM!!!
Astro Joe
November 2nd, 2011
11:12 am
One last thing, let’s not confuse the amnesty question with “name the Hawk who most deserves to be cut loose”. IMO, the answer to the latter question goes to Marvin with Joe coming in a close second. But the answer to the first issue, amnesty, goes to N/A. IMO, amnesty will NOT conrtibute to an improvement in the roster due to the financial issues MC covers above.
Rod from College Park
November 2nd, 2011
11:13 am
Anybody want to guess who I want to get rid of?
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
11:23 am
Master of Ceremony!
MC! Thank You for addressing the Antics with some Good Stuff. I for one am encouraged to hear that the AJC is seriously addressing the blog’s basic need re: multiple ID abusers. We will email you directly from here on as suggested. Keep up the good werk! In LIFE you will NEVER please all the people all the time. DLedbetter gets bashed daily for dropping 5 blogs per day, because the topics are deemed irrelevant. Go Figure? Damn if you do and damned if you don’t.
Our point is this: just keep the communication lines open for the Love of your blog people. We don’t care about the topics – we just wanna’ talk to our friends, sans the troll. LOL
MsDee
November 2nd, 2011
11:30 am
MC, wanted to say so glad you’re back, but I just had to answer your question u wrote earlier, “these players are not like regular workers. they are a small workforce that generates $4 billion in revenue. they are not just the labor, they also are the product. they’ve already given a lot of concessions. how does any of this make them ‘greedy’?”
It makes them ‘greedy’ by not playing up to their potential and can STILL get a HUGE pay check every freaking month as if, “yeah I had a bad season but who cares, look at my new house, I mean, mansion I just bought and check out my new ride..52″ rims..etc”. It makes me sick that these guys cant just enjoy the money they ARE making just to get back on the court and PLAY FOR US FANS and stop worrying what the owners make cause at the end of the day, WE, MEANING ALL AMERICANS INCLUDING OWNERS, ARE IN A RECESSION RIGHT NOW. NO ONE SHOULD BE MAKING WHAT WE MADE SOME YEARS AGO, SO WHY SHOULD THEY STAY AT THERE PRESENT INCOME WHILE, US FANS, DECLINE????? Please answer that for me, MC!!
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
11:43 am
Laughable!
“Marvin is a much better player than Hawks fans give him credit for.” -KBP-
_____________
STOP the silliness! Is that “It was not a bad pick”, posting again? IF Marvin went to see The Wizard of OZ and got a Heart – how would that improve his balance and keep him upright in a game on a fast break?
Answer: it won’t! Please, just STOP making excuses for Marvin. “It was a turrible pick!” Period! Amnesty his big butt or trade him for a bag of NBA Logo Socks!
Stick a fork in his Azz and let the hot-air out!
J
November 2nd, 2011
12:06 pm
as a fan that went to a lot of games, i can say that Joe played hurt most of last season. Yeah, he didn’t live up to his contract but you can bet he’s working his butt off now. That fact always seems to be overlooked when people start dumping on Joe. And lets face it, we were lucky to get him b/c nobody in their right mind wanted to come to Atlanta a few years ago.
J
November 2nd, 2011
12:09 pm
and don’t get me wrong, i don’t believe he’s worth what he was paid BUT the fact remains he’s stayed with Atlanta all those years, at least somewhat put them on the map, and finally guided us back to the playoffs. Keep on hating if you’d like, but that’s the reality of it. Joe, when not injured, is a top-notch basketball player. You can say the same about Chipper Jones for the Braves.
J
November 2nd, 2011
12:10 pm
Marvin sucks – he’ll give you 30 points one night and then disappear for a good 2 months … ship em out
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
12:11 pm
Every time I think about Marvin and his contract, I can’t help but wonder what Rick was thinking. As if itsnt bad enough, the last year is an option year…and Marvin has the option (not the team). That’s just crazy to me.
As for the amnesty clause, I’m with AJ. I think Marvin is most deserving, but financially, I don’t think it helps the Hawks much. What the Hawks need is a good coach, and a good GM to make good decisions.
As for JJ’s trade value, I don’t think he will have any trade value until year 3 or 4 of his 6 year deal.
PLEASE
November 2nd, 2011
12:17 pm
The Hawks have to get rid of Joe Johnson. He is the most overpayed and overrated player in the league.
Bigdawg`
November 2nd, 2011
12:42 pm
My nickname for Joe is “Wall Street” Joe Johnson! He stole $120m from us and will never be prosecuted!
Imagine there’s no B-ball/It’s easy if you try.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:25 pm
Stole Money?
Hold up while I stop the belly-laughing. Wait, while I get up off the floor.
Joe was camped out in his LA Mansion when the FA clock began to tick. Sund flew a private jet, armed with “that” contract and some knee pads. He begged Mr. Johnson to sign that deal!
What would YOU do Bigdawg? Say, “No Thank You Sund, imma’ just sit here and wait for less money from another team?” If Mr. Johnson said, NO to Sund – then we would all say he was certifiable.” Please make comments that make common sense, at least give us that.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:38 pm
The Big Three Summit!
Oh yeah! And don’t forget, Joe was being courted by the likes of:
LBJ
DWade
Chris Bosh (that maybe a stretch)
Amare Stoudamire
DRose
All the super stars wooed Joe to come on board for a Dream Team title chase. Again, Joe choose the Hawks and of course the money was right. But, consider this, with the Bird Rights in place, no other team could offer any more, if so, they probably would have. Look how the Knicks gutted their roster for Melo and didn’t even make the play offs.
That’s my little take anyways.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:47 pm
* correction: the Melo led knicks ended their playoff drought this past off season. Kudos to them!
But, you get the point. LOL!
PMC
November 2nd, 2011
1:54 pm
Joe at least adds to the team. Marvin is scattershot at best.
I know the Joe money is bad, but at least they are getting something out of Joe even if it doesn’t show up in the playoffs.
marvin….doesn’t show up.
PMC
November 2nd, 2011
1:55 pm
I’m more perplexed as to why they would pay Marvin who has never really shown anything, than giving Joe a max deal.
Bonifide Big Man
November 2nd, 2011
1:58 pm
Great work sir! Any breathing room for the Hawks would be good since the payroll is over $60 million without a full roster filled out now
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:01 pm
Da Truth!
Go head on … PMC! It’s just common sense stuff. It’s not emotional.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:07 pm
Hugh?
“Any breathing room for the Hawks would be good since the payroll is over $60 million without a full roster filled out now” -Bonafide Big Man-
________________
Can you show us the over $60M roster tab for our signed players? And, can you check your math?
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:09 pm
Over an Under!
Well, if we are already sitting at over 60M and that is the new cap? Then we are going to have to move one or two of our current pieces.
Jimmy Crack
November 2nd, 2011
2:17 pm
…LIKE A HOT ROCK!
Let’s just all have a group hug and say one final time that WE SHOULDA PICKED CHRIS PAUL!!!
Amnesty, and then we can move on from that monumental error.
KBP
November 2nd, 2011
2:21 pm
drmaryb . . . Marvin had nothing to do with where he was picked and the expectations that come with it. I, like most, would have selected Chris Paul. I am talking about Marvin’s talent. He is in the upper half of small forward’s in the league talent wise.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:36 pm
Where?
“Marvin had nothing to do with where he was picked and the expectations that come with it. ” -KBP-
_________________
Show me where my comments said anything about where where Marvin was picked? Bottom line is … His play is turrible – Period. Amnesty him quick, I’ll take Damien Wilkins over Marvin, any day!
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
2:41 pm
Marvin hasn’t played up to the value of his contract. However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract? That’s a lot to pay someone who isn’t going to start this season. Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does (think about it Kirk was traded for Mike Bibby, – that’s his value now). I may would rather to get another point guard for under the mid level exception, and wait on a trade for Marvin because of annual salary.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:43 pm
Pay Check Johnnie!
KBP, Marvin is the equivalent of Samuel Dalembert. Neither one of them doesn’t even like basketball. It’s just a pay check for these two.
Marvin on his “At Home” segments aired all season long told the interviewer when asked, “Do you watch NBA basketball on TV at home?” Replied, “I don’t like to watch basketball games.” (para-phrased). Marvin said his favorite thing to do is “Sleep”.
Sam Dalembert, simply refuses to even bend over a pick a basketball up during his off seasons.
KBP, you can put Marvin on your team – I don’t want him on mine. I’m done talking about Marvin, unless he is being amnestied. Next topic please!
judy
November 2nd, 2011
2:45 pm
drmary…I agree with everything you said about Joe.Yes he did show up for the playoff in 2011.Joe really played hard.Have you notice every team we play they double Joe? That should tell everyone something about how good Joe really is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GO JOE AND THE HAWKS!!!!!!!!!! A true fan
KBP
November 2nd, 2011
2:49 pm
drmaryb … “It was a turrible pick” is in your post. I agree the Hawks did not need him at all let alone at #2 overall. My only point is he is a better player than what the last two years have shown and time will tell. I’d take Granger, Gay, Butler, but Damien? No way.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:54 pm
Girl Power!
Ms. Dee & Miss Judy is in the house! Now, I got my girls on board and that’s a good start! LOL!
Isn’t it fun hanging with the fellas? Sports Talk is real business and worth billions.
Re:judy: joe needs some help, we need some super-stars too. If we could just somehow get Dwight, we’ll all forget about CP3.
oldmike
November 2nd, 2011
3:12 pm
I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones. Great gifts athletically. (Marvin CAN jump out of the gym) But no real workout r4egimen. He is all rear end. Works if you are Tuner the Burner but not if you are in the NBA. Needs to lose the butt, work on hsi ball handling skills and save his money ’cause the gravy train is leaving the depot and the rest of his life’s a starin’ back at him.
Gatorhater
November 2nd, 2011
3:18 pm
Go Marvin . . . and please take Johnson and Smith with you!
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
3:26 pm
Ra’mon,
Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does (think about it Kirk was traded for Mike Bibby, – that’s his value now)..
1) Hinrich was traded for Mike Bibby, Jordan Crawford (who was a 1st round pick) AND the Hawks 1st round pick in this year’s draft.
2) According to hoopshype, Kirk only has one year left on his contract.
3) What makes him more valuable to the Hawks is because he can play backup PG and backup SG.
gregpatrick
November 2nd, 2011
3:43 pm
Couldn’t possibly care less. The NBA is a joke.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:46 pm
Value Added Services!
“However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract?” -Ra’mon-
_______________
SVG said it best after the Hawks eliminated the Magic in rpund 1 last season, “Kirk Hinrich was the difference in us losing this series.”
Kirk therefore, has value added services and he is tradeable, unlike Marvin has proven to be.
joe
November 2nd, 2011
3:50 pm
Enter your comments here
joe
November 2nd, 2011
3:51 pm
Maybe i am just stupid and can’t read but who the heck is J.J??
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:53 pm
KBP
One last thing here … “It was a terrible pick” was a jab to a well known blogger on here named: “it was not a bad pick”. Nothing more! Don’t read too much into that, I could care less where Marvin was picked – he still SUX and badly! You can move him into your house if you love his game so much. Sure blame everyone around him, but he still SUX and badly!!!
Now run along, we’re done wasking key strokes on that loser Marvin! He’s not worth the trouble. I promise you he is NOT working on his game in any gym. So, why do you care? – He doesn’t.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:55 pm
* wasting key strokes …
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
3:56 pm
KBP,
I’d take Granger, Gay, Butler, but Damien? No way..
Would you take Marvin for $7.5 mil, or Damien at $1.2 mil?
cp
November 2nd, 2011
4:15 pm
Its been a while since i posted but I hope all is well with all the bloggers..
I just don’t have the confidence that this front office will get it right when it comes to this roster. Has Marvin worked on his game or did he do his usual and workout with Sean May? I hope this lockout ends soon. Looks like I will be watching more college b ball than I have in the past. I really want to see Kentucky and Duke this year…
And not basketball related but that grand theft auto 5 looks crazy.
Rod from College Park
November 2nd, 2011
4:16 pm
“I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones.”
Please don’t disrespect Andruw Jones like that. Andruw was one of the top center fielders in MLB for a number of years, and won numerous gold gloves at the highest level. Marvin has not accomplished anything in the NBA, and has earned no respect from any of his peers or coaches in the league.
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
4:53 pm
O’brien, I forgot about the draft pick. I’m not sure if this is the last year on Kirk’s deal, or next season is. Because some sites say 2 years, and others say 1 year.
Think about this though. If there was a way to shred Crawford’s contract number (free agency), along with Marvin and Kirk (amnesty/trade), then that would be over $24 mil less than last season.
Remember, I am still one who favors an Al/Kirk for P. Gasol trade. Also ‘attempting’ a Joe for CP3 trade, even if CP3 doesn’t re-signs.
J
November 2nd, 2011
5:04 pm
dr maryb – you’ll have no complaints from me on your comments. Any knucklehead should know that Joe paid his dues. It’s not his fault they overpaid for him. And you’re right, all the other superstars did try to woo him to come play on their teams. He was supposed to be in Miami w/ D-Wade/LBJ but he turned it down to stay in Atlanta for the money. Chicago wanted him badly! Smart guy. Then again, you and i both know half of these people don’t read nor keep up on the subject of basketball. And that talk of Chris Paul, it’s way old.
J
November 2nd, 2011
5:06 pm
gregpatrick – get your @$$ outta here then, nobody cares about what you have to say … to me, you’re a joke for coming on here and even commenting
ant banks
November 2nd, 2011
5:13 pm
i say that we keep BOTH marvin and jj. what we REALLY NEED is a shrewed gm and a kick arse coach who can get somethin’ outta their players. i really don’t think that marvin would suck under a coach who will light fire to that arse.
3 years, we will be free and clear of marvin, 2 yrs if we use his expirin’ contract to get picks or better free agents.
USING THE AMNESTY ON EITHER GUY IS NOT PALATABLE TO ME. IMHO
Najeh Davenpoop
November 2nd, 2011
5:16 pm
“I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones. Great gifts athletically. (Marvin CAN jump out of the gym) But no real workout r4egimen.”
Andruw Jones hit 300 homers and won something like six or seven Gold Gloves as a Brave. I wish Marvin was half that good.
Marvin is more comparable to Francoeur, except if the Braves had given him a five year contract extension instead of cutting their losses and trading him.
Jay Dubu
November 2nd, 2011
5:20 pm
Hawks are in a salary cap pickle. Unless JJ begins to play up to his contract, they’re going to be hard pressed to add quality players.
If this lock out lingers on, I hope that the arenas are just as empty then as they are now.
Jay Dubu
November 2nd, 2011
5:39 pm
I’m all for the players “earning” as much as possible while they can. Due to the nature of their profession, their careers don’t typically span 15+ year, so they find themselves in their early to mid 30s, and being retired.
That said, there are a lot of players, 9 thru 14, that are making 750k plus. That is a bit much when you know that you’re not going to play in any games during the season unless something catastrophic happens.
There are a hand full up players that deserve to be payed 15 – 20 mil because they put fannies in the seats, and sell jerseys, hats, etc., but the leahue has absolutely too many players being payed that kind of money, without yielding those results.
I know that the mid to low salaries are inflated based on the top performers, but an adjustment needs to be made.
And no, the owners do not need to reap all of the benefits from an adjustment by the players. They should pass some of that on to the fans. There is no reason for a hotdog or 20 ounce soda to cost $4 or more. let alone a ticket to a seat where you can actually see and identify the players on the floor costing upwards of $80 for a single game.
FreshFromATL
November 2nd, 2011
5:54 pm
Damn, I love having the blog back.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
6:05 pm
@MsDee: “It makes them ‘greedy’ by not playing up to their potential and can STILL get a HUGE pay check every freaking month as if, “yeah I had a bad season but who cares, look at my new house, I mean, mansion I just bought and check out my new ride..52″ rims..etc”. It makes me sick that these guys cant just enjoy the money they ARE making just to get back on the court and PLAY FOR US FANS and stop worrying what the owners make cause at the end of the day, WE, MEANING ALL AMERICANS INCLUDING OWNERS, ARE IN A RECESSION RIGHT NOW. NO ONE SHOULD BE MAKING WHAT WE MADE SOME YEARS AGO, SO WHY SHOULD THEY STAY AT THERE PRESENT INCOME WHILE, US FANS, DECLINE????? Please answer that for me, MC!!”
i understand why fans feel this way about players who are overpaid. i would argue that the anger is misdirected except i know that fans get mad at GMs for making bad deals, too.
but the players are not expecting to make their present income. they’ve already agreed to givebacks that total more than $1 billion over the life of the next CBA. how much more should they give back? i don’t know the answer to that but i understand why players are resisting further cuts. also remember this deal is going to be for at least seven years, so it’s not just about now, it’s about the future.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
6:10 pm
@Ra’mon: “Marvin hasn’t played up to the value of his contract. However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract? That’s a lot to pay someone who isn’t going to start this season. Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does”
Kirk has an expiring contract, which makes him a more valuable asset than Marvin. no need to amnesty Kurt when a) he’s still productive and b) can be traded at the deadline, if not sooner.
Grandad
November 2nd, 2011
6:47 pm
Thanks for everyone who beat me to it;
Andruw Jones = HOF !
10 consecutive Gold Gloves, 5 time All-Star;
One time should have been MVP 2005
*[he was robbed, jobbed, & ka-bobbed]
*05 led league in HR’s (50+), RBI’s, + another GG.
How dare anyone compare Andruw to Marv.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
6:47 pm
Ant Farm!
“i say that we keep BOTH marvin and jj. what we REALLY NEED is a shrewed gm and a kick arse coach who can get somethin’ outta their players.” -ant banks-
___________________
This is true. Compared to Drew, Mr. Woodson fielded a more disciplined team. More so with Josh & Al being glued to the paint and Marvin fared some better as well.
Drew fell into the trap of trying to make a change, not necessarily for the better. This team as currently constructed is a proven 2nd round exit – every time. Even with what all Miami did to get better, personnel wise.
We just have to find a bench to help the starters, especially if we can’t find a center. We found our PG of the future, and he was firmly planted on the bench all the time. Some players, like Teague are just gamers and don’t show well in practice, or whatever the excuse was for not playing him more at starter minutes.
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
6:55 pm
MC, didn’t realize Kirk’s contract was expiring this season (if there is a season, lol). But in that case, that’s great.
So I say package Kirk and Al for a superstar if possible.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
6:55 pm
MC
Fantastic blog today. Great research on your part to show us the difference in amnesty-ing Marvin versus Joe. That what just Too Much Good Stuff!
Nice job of setting the table and feeding the homeless and the hungry! LOL (homeless … He He) I thought we got foreclosed on for a minute there.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
7:12 pm
Captain Kirk!
He’s nasty like Harvey Dahl! Why not keep Kirk and play him behind Joe at the SG spot. He takes better shots than Jamal (4 point king) and makes a high percentage beyond the arc. Thing is he never takes a bad shot from 3 point land and plays within the offense. Start Teague at PG and find him a back up. That would go a long way in balancing the PG and SG positions. Then move on to SF & Center, to help Josh and Al with some much needed size in the paint.
The Hawks are just too small in the paint to compete for a title, especially with Josh and Al doing the Tokyo Drift farther and farther away from the basket.
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
7:58 pm
I SAY KEEP EVERY ONE AND WAIT FOR 2012
STARTER 2012 TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, SUPERMAN
BENCH HINRICH, PAPE, MARVIN, ? , ZAZA
CHAMPIONSHIP
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
8:01 pm
TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, SUPERMAN
WOULD BE THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE NBA.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
FreshFromAtl
November 2nd, 2011
8:24 pm
So what is going to happen with Jamal? Should we just assume that he is done as a member of the Hawks? So, if we amnesty Marvin, the starting lineup is going to look something like:
PG Teague
SG Hinrich
SF Joe
PF Josh
C AL
?
ryan
November 2nd, 2011
8:24 pm
Hopefully the new owner will be in charge if we get that extra cap space not the ASG .
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
8:28 pm
FreshFromAtl please not one more year with AL playing center, im tired of being rank at the bottom of the league in rebounding.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
8:30 pm
Teague and Hinrich in the backcourt along with Josh and Horford in the frontcourt would be the smallest team in the league 4 years is a enough.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
8:33 pm
The Best Man is Super Man!
Josh recruited Dwight to be his Best Man. So, can Josh double down and recruit Dwight one more time to be his Super Man?
I’m just wondering … with Alex Meruelo in the wings, perhaps Dwight will just come home and make that line up for the best DEFENSE in the NBA a reality!
This city, this town, these fans sure deserve a Winner! We are long over due.
doc
November 2nd, 2011
8:34 pm
mc, ignore it. when i was a management consultant a very high up gm in a very important us buiness gave me a very simple formula; 1/3 will like you, 1/3 will hate you, you got to work to the middle third to paraphrase. where this is most vivid is the polls for political offices that run between the middle thirds and rarely above and rarely below. most of us have insight to know that you are also involved in a business and as i have said it before if the ajc wanted more from you, they would ask for it and you would jump. i think you know when bball is in session, for what you want to do in life, you got a pretty good gig.
again, just get on with it and know most of us appreciate your efforts and timely info, personally if you have to go to the civic section and deliver hawks info about where they spent their summer and how their business is going and who they been dating then it is really going to be a harsh off season as if it hasnt been awful enough. for all the positives some bring to the table the discriminating customer will know when to scroll, as dr mary b says and when not to. enoughnow if you could give us a little more on the business side f the possible buy out so we can direct a few commments that was then it would be appreciated by me. also maybe soliciting for some ideas that he shallow idea folks at ajc might overlook even though it is about readership, as important, might be a constructive idea. whatever, you know?.
ryan
November 2nd, 2011
8:39 pm
I hear the Sac Kings could end up in Anaheim geeeeeeeez can you imagine Lakers , Clippers, Kings all in the same area at the same time i know one team that wont be happy .
doc
November 2nd, 2011
8:42 pm
grandad, with the best retort, najeh and rod, agree, andruw was not even close to marvin. i think like so many of his era might have even given his body to science to make sure he did what he did and boy could he cruise in center field. i think it is also a low blow to frenchy as he may not have been the golden boy many made him out to be but as marvin his head sure got in his way especially when he treid to get his mind around how much money boros had gotten for him and how to make it woth while. i think he was one of the guys who would have been better getting paid less and living with it and trying to perform to that level rather than be a superstar. it might have gotten into uggla’s head as well. self worth is a hard thing to judge and justify.
Grandmaster JeJe
November 2nd, 2011
8:52 pm
FIRE MARVIN
Same guy who injured his back when trying to wrap up LOUIS AMUNDSON on a layup attempt and subsequently ENDED UP ON THE GROUND WITH AN INJURED BACK
He is frail, a career underachiever, zero basketball IQ, and I think 99% of us agree that his favorite part about the game of basketball is when he is taken out of the game and he does that weird towel on his head wrap thing. LOL
Astro Joe
November 2nd, 2011
8:54 pm
A druw is more akin to Josh Smith. Tremendous physical talent, usually very productive and usually very frustrating because they sub-optimize(d) themselves. Marvin may eventually become Yunel Escobar.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
8:56 pm
Take Out!
“I’d take Granger, Gay, Butler, but Damien? No way” -KBP-
______________
What rock does this guy sleep under? You can’t just take
Granger, Gay, Butler, – they are not “Take – Out Dinners”
LOL! Those guys are franchised properties who belong to their team owners. Damien is an UFA and is available and dreams of playing for the Hawks. Has more Heart, Brain and Courage than the characters from The Wizard of Oz!
And, will work for food!
__________________
Back to the serious blogger … We need to just woo Dwight and wait for him to sign. We don’t need a trade deadline deal that will gut our team. The Magic are not in the driver’s seat, like Melo … They can’t trade Dwight to The Clippers, because he simply won’t go there. Let’s pray Josh can recruit him and he comes here straight up after next season.
day old fries
November 2nd, 2011
9:06 pm
Amnesty Marvin would be a good band name
Jay
November 2nd, 2011
9:22 pm
Comparing JJ and Chipper? Don’t insult Chipper like that. Let’s see JJ win a championship and MVP first, fat chance either happen.
brigadierjerry
November 2nd, 2011
9:28 pm
Grandad, drmaryb, Najeh and others,
Good discussion by all today. One thing I would say though that I find interesting, although they play different positions if you compare Paul Pierce career and Joe Johnson before Pierce got Allen and Garnett, who would you say was a better player between the two?Joe Johnson and Paul Pierce game’s are both very similar. Pierce went to a conference final early in his career but his playoff history with the Celtics wasnt good at all. He almost got traded before they made those deals in 2007 because he wanted out. Then look at the deals they made and then they won a championship and Pierce is considered one of the greats. Pierce is a very good player but is he really that much better than say Johnson?No it is because the management got him help. I remember Celtics fans when the trade for Garnett happend they was upset giving up Al Jeffereson because he was a future star. You think they care about that now?Look how the Celtics been good for about 4 years now although their shelf life is about to run out. The Hawks if they want to really make a difference needs to make a trade to get Howard to really make a difference for this Hawks team.
Also I see Johnson much like Pierce playing on a high level for probably 4 more years. His game just like Pierce do not rely on athleticism so he will last for a long time on a high level. Johnson is a very good player he just isnt the kind of player that going to carry u on his back like say a Kevin Durant or a Carmelo. Hawks are a lot like Memphis Grizzlies or even the Denver Nuggets post Melo trade, sum is greater than the parts but to win a championship you need a star player that can carry you or if you can get a star player who is a difference maker and a very good player with some good role players and specialists that play team basketball you can win.
Grandad, after watching the Hawks for many years I always have felt this franchise has never made the right moves or make a big splash to get a star or even a second star for say Nique. Only time was when they got Moses and Theus although Moses was way past his prime but he still played on a high level. If Willis didnt get hurt that year would’ve been interesting to see where the Hawks would’ve fared.
Getting back to the Hawks if they want to really make a move they need to get another star player such as Dwight and it is up to management to do that. Would love to see if the new owner if approved will make a difference. Depending on the CBA sometimes you have to take chances and the Hawks are really this close to being a championship team. It worked wonderful for Pierce and the Celtics
brigadierjerry
November 2nd, 2011
9:49 pm
Also on the subject of Marvin, I think it would be best if Marvin would be better suited playing elsewhere. Marvin biggest problem other than not seemingly to care about improving his game is that he was picked so high and picked instead of Chris Paul If he was picked say between 15-20 no one would complain. The biggest problem with Marvin is he is an underachiever just happy to be below average to average player. I dont get the impression to me that he works hard and it has nothing to do with his personality either. RIght now who would you rather have Marvin Williams or say Lou Deng who is overpaid as well or even Taj Gibson?
I dont see Marvin even if he is gone elsewhere being that much better. He has his moments but it is too few and far between. He is what he is. He could be if he worked at it be a good defender or specialist in one area but i think he is the type of player who is happy if he scores 15 pts or 5 points. It doesnt affect his any way. He has bad mechanics footwork and release on his shot. He is best playing in Minnesota or a lower level team so he wouldnt have to deal with the pressure
doc
November 2nd, 2011
9:58 pm
aj, yunel left because he was not doing well with his teammates, a malcontent prima donna without the cred. marvin doesnt meet these criteria at all. yes to the josh, andruw thing, close, as both have acheived just not how we want them too.
doc
November 2nd, 2011
10:01 pm
bj i hate to admit it because i dont like pierce but he has a dagger mentality that i dont see in jj. he really wants to step up and be the man every time.
brigadierjerry
November 2nd, 2011
10:35 pm
doc,
That is true but you know what early in his career before he got Garnett and Allen, it didnt amount to anything as far as success of the team. HIm and Walker used to take turns and they would have high scoring games but a lot of games they lost. They did go to the conference finals that one year but outisde of that check out Pierce’s success as far as the team goes before he got Allen and garnett and drafted Rondo. Pierce has a swagger and has gots but until they got Allen and Garnett the teams success when Pierce was not good.
Big Ray
November 2nd, 2011
10:39 pm
Rod from College Park
November 2nd, 2011
11:13 am
Anybody want to guess who I want to get rid of?
Best post all day long….and even better? I agree 100%.
Grandmaster JeJe
November 2nd, 2011
11:09 pm
FIRE SUND
doc
November 2nd, 2011
11:11 pm
rod your wisdom gets shorter and shorter but is just as powerful. heh heh
Grandad
November 2nd, 2011
11:40 pm
As much as I like josh and can see some similarities,
-still-
no comparison.
as a matter of fact … have the hawks ever …
since being in ATL had the very best at something ?
Pistol … maybe ?
Andruw was perhaps the -Best- centerfielder to -ever-
play the game.
Sources = myself + Bobby Cox + Tony Guinn.
Now on to other stuff…………………..basketball
Grandad
November 3rd, 2011
12:01 am
Chances of dwight playing here = less than 50%.
Joe is not a SuperStar +plus+ he does not play hard
nor does inspire, neither is he one of those rare “Stars”
“who make their teammates better”:
Bird, Magic, Jordon (through intimidation),
Zeke, Russell, et al.
Or even to a lesser extent;
Rodman, Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, or Hondo.
less talented but Champions nonetheless.
-Therefore-
If a trade could be made,
in which we could latch onto a young …
SuperStar in the making plus a Big …
then that would be just dandy.
Were there a team ?
On the cusp of a championship that would;
part with the above:
[a young SS + a Big] + +
for Joe and maybe even Josh …;
does anyone connected with the Hawks have the forethought
to make such a deal ?
Do I have such a deal in mind … oh yeah.
Does Sund … whaddayouthink ?
Does anyone think that far out of the box ?
vava74
November 3rd, 2011
6:49 am
Anyone even remotely suggesting that we should use the amnesty clause on JJ is a lunatic.
JJ will be trade chip all the way through his contract since he can easily be perceived as the missing piece for a championship contender and his game – not very physical oriented – should age well (last year he was hampered by the elbow injury but his playoff run was very good IMO).
All points out for a new CBA that will continue to preview the luxury tax but with harsher penalties.
That translates into JJ having market value for heavy spenders like Cuban, Dolan, Buss … looking for that extra player.
Using the clause with Marvin may not generate huge cap benefits, but at least we would get him out of our system.
vava74
November 3rd, 2011
6:58 am
Ous spark and our star potential which will get us out of our funk has ONE NAME:
TEAGUE
Given him the car keys and let JJ work a Joe Dumars’ role: steady 20ppg, 5rpg 5apg with good defense and have Hinrich make with them a really versatile and dangerous 3 guard rotation.
O'Brien
November 3rd, 2011
8:02 am
Brigadierjerry,
Two big differences between JJ and Pierce (imo). 1) Pierce draws fouls and gets to the line, while JJ does not. That is one area that JJ needs to work on (although this late in his career, I don’t know if he ever will), and it would even prolong his career/effectiveness.
2) Pierce seems to be a better leader than JJ.
Vava,
If this was baseball with no salary cap, I think JJ would have more trade value. But if the Hawks trade him, they have to get close to equal value in terms of salary from the other team.
JJ’s salary (after this year) is 4 years, $89 mil. The year after that is 3 years, $69 mil. And then 2 years, $48 mil. His last year, $25 mil. Which means the Hawks will probably have to take back a bad contract in return for JJ.
Also, the luxury tax penalty will be more severe, so that might make some teams think twice about how far into luxury tax they’re willing to go.
doc
November 3rd, 2011
8:52 am
grandad carry over from last blog. yes ithink there is potential for a plantation mentaity in the nba. you have rich white “owners” powerful and controling as they buy sel and trade athletes. bryant gumble alluded to it in describing stern and sterling has been quoted along those lines before. yes players are entitled but owners are enpowered and a very priviliged class beyond mist of our imaginations even more dangerous as they take public moneys have fans buying their product at top dollar though it might be for a last place team and have excellent tax accomidating business’. this is an investment and not their meal ticket by any stretch but a veryexclusive club that brings huge profits in the end.
vava74
November 3rd, 2011
9:08 am
OB,
Not necessarily: you can get in a trade for JJ multiple pieces, so it is not written in stone that a trade would mean that the Hawks would have to absorb a bad deal.
Some of the contracts could be expiring deals and not necessarily an Agent 0 type of contract.
Astro Joe
November 3rd, 2011
10:00 am
doc, my Yunel/Marvin comparison was mostly rooted in guys with very good physical tools who sometimes flash above avergae talent but lack something insode to make it happen. In Yunel’s case, it seemed to be discipline and hard work, in Marvin’s case it seems to be passion and tenacity. No, Marvin isn’t a malcontent but his principle “barrier to success” is intgernal, much like Yunel. And they appear to be destined as drafted products of the Atlanta team that never came close to reaching their potential.
Najeh Davenpoop
November 3rd, 2011
10:10 am
“Pierce draws fouls and gets to the line, while JJ does not. ”
Co-sign. Other than this they are very similar, but that is a HUGE difference. And Pierce finds a way to get to the line despite not being overly explosive, so it’s not like Joe couldn’t do it if he wanted to.
At this stage of his career, though, expecting Joe to change his style of play much is probably an exercise in futility, which is why the most likely way to maximize his value to the team is probably to deemphasize his role in the offense and let Teague shoulder more of the ball handling and shot creating duties.
Lou Hudson could flat out shoot
November 3rd, 2011
10:25 am
Amnesty the whole bunch except for Al and Teague. And, really, who cares?
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 3rd, 2011
10:34 am
Poop on That!
Very nice comment, insightful. Man do we need a Real Coach and a Real GM and a Real Owner.
Grandad
November 3rd, 2011
10:47 am
doc:
* …”grandad carry over from last blog”…
Yes, I heard bryant Gumbel’s assertations.
doc – when I heard Gumbel – My 1st thoughts were,
how can a man in his position say something so ignorant ?
I refuse to put you in Gumbels classification.
I respect your opinion;
but … slavery … nah.
-Be- for the players rights above the owners = fine and dandy.
Slavery as an analogy … don’t go there.
Too much, over the top, off base, disrectful to those who suffered.
I’m sorry, can’t agree.
You are a learned man with vast insight;
on this I most -respectfully- disagree.
* I’m not opposing your opinion – just the analogy.
sincerely,
G-dad
doc
November 3rd, 2011
11:47 am
grandad, funny you were quick to note the entitlements and the problems inherent to that part of the equation but unable to acknowledge the egregious behavior of power, greed and privileged mentality of the owners. no, it is certainly not slavery but the better association is the idea of a plantation mentality of ownership over ones employees that has nothing to do with color and actual ownership of bodies only an attitude that permeates business and why unions were formed to avoid indentured servitude. dolan in new york is out of control and sterling has been quoted in such a way that is comes close to that of how someone might have actually sounded on the plantation years ago.
on the way to work i also was considering how trying to sell this to the owners might go. do you think at times stern is having a bigger time of it than maybe billy knight or rick sund had trying to get 30 or so folks of very independent mind and goals to all come together under one agreement. personally i think it is the owners holding up the process and being unrealistic to what they should warrant. again communities, fans and supprot folks wont get the revenues lost back in any form but the owners forget really the hand that feeds them the tax dollars and fans along with advertiser dollars.
thanks for your thoughtful response grandad. wish i could turn such a blind eye to what the owners are doing and their attitudes as they do it. i think they are very culpable and will still make their money. odd how the mayor said the rally in the park for the masses cost 350k but has been silent to how much the nba is costing us now in revenues as the owners drag this out. for one guy we sacrifice millions. justice for all, eh?
Joe D
November 3rd, 2011
12:05 pm
Again for the 100th time, JJ is NOT the problem. The problems have been many: failing to obtain or developing a PG, selecting Marvin over JChildress, resigning Marvin. Next, Cleveland offer Shaq for Marvin and even if the Shaq trade had been a total failure; it would have been an one year deal. Marvin’s contract and its drain would have gone!!! Last year, the Clippers offered SF Gomes (4 mil) and PF Smith expiring (3.5 mil) contract at the trade deadline. Again, this trade would have gotten rend of his contract. The Hawks could have closed this sad and unproductive chapter.
The ? concerning JJ’s contract is not what happens 3 years for now. He should be an effective player for at least the next 3 years. So, let’s focus on now, Dump Marvin and hope that it is too painful or costly. Pray that Teague is ready ;hopefully, the 3 guard rotation of Teague, JJ, and Hinrich will be very productive. Next, the 2nd pick can become a contributior and sign a scorer.
Go Hawks!
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 3rd, 2011
12:14 pm
Weak Links!
C
SF
Bench
Kito, is the equivalent of Tito of The Jackson 5. (stiff)
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 3rd, 2011
12:22 pm
Tough Guy!
ZaZa is very young and is the only “mean-mugger” on this team. He, my friends has value and an adequate game! I play him over the new kid “Kito”! Keep Collins for size off the Bench. Get rid of the rest of the bench. Start Damien Wilkins and sub for him. Damien sets the tone on Defense!
Build a damn team with what we have, and find the missing parts! Find us a Real GM!, Owner, Coach!
Bring Back Spud & Cak'
November 3rd, 2011
1:41 pm
PLEASE NEW HAWKS MGMT, FIND SOME WAY TO GET RID of that bum, JOE JOHNSON! I can’t sit through another season, watching the Hawks play pretty well & then get to the playoffs only to have ‘Defenseless’ Joe Johnson quit on the team & not show up to play DEFENSE! We are doomed 4 years to come if this bum is the centerpiece of our roster – ZERO LEADERSHIP ZERO lockerroom example/authority. Such a shame too b/c this team has a Fine nucleus – Horford, J. Smith, Jamaal C, heck even Heinrich & Teague can hold their own at the point.
PLEASE EITHER AMNESTY OR CUT JOHNSON, he will bring this team down for years if not!
nique
November 3rd, 2011
1:46 pm
Interesting post. My vote would definitely be to stretch JJ. Their contract $ is just counted against cap room, so it’s not real money to be paid out ever, right?
DTC
November 3rd, 2011
2:07 pm
PLEASE @ 12:17PM – I agree, and I said the same thing the day after the contract was signed.
DTC
November 3rd, 2011
2:11 pm
Joe D @ 12:05 PM – Yes Joe Johnson is the problem. He never was qualified to receive this kind of money. Many of the other NBA clubs have said the same thing since it was signed. He is not worth half the money he is being paid. If the problem was elsewhere, he should still make sure HE earns his money, instead of playing as lousey as he does. The true #1 stars show up.
DTC
November 3rd, 2011
2:14 pm
Bring Back Spud & Cak’ – Good post. Yes, get rid of Joe. I honestly think Koncack, in his day, could take Joe Johnson on a regular basis, with Joe’s present record being my argument on this thought.
ILL-Logical
November 3rd, 2011
2:35 pm
I believe that Joe Johnson’s CONTRACT , because of its disproportionate share of the current payroll and the fiscal restraints that result, is a significant issue concerning the future of the Hawks’ franchise.
There are arguments to be made ,both pro and con, regarding Joe’s skills and capabilities however, there can be no debate about the fiscal restaint imposed on the franchise by the size and length of his contract.The ability to improve the roster with both the type and number of players necessary to achieve a championship is severely curtailed under the current salary rules; what happens if the new rules are less favorable ?
If there is going to be new ownership and if there is going to be a 2011-12 season, this issue cannot be avoided.
doc
November 3rd, 2011
2:54 pm
gd exhibit a:
http://www.sportsgrid.com/media/donald-sterling-racist-remarks/
there are more
just goggle;
don sterling racist remarks nba
and your
stomach will turn
doc
November 3rd, 2011
2:56 pm
another good one:
http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/legal-filings-elgin-baylor-donald-sterling/
doc
November 3rd, 2011
3:06 pm
gd remember don gilbert’s reaction:
http://blog.mlive.com/ottoman-empire/2010/07/cleveland_cavaliers_owner_dan_gilbert_takes_low_road_with_tirade_against_lebron_james.html
it wasnt labron, who i dont like, but riles that put the best package together for the queen after gilbert failed for s many years. it was riles that stole his baby fair square and he wants it to beabout the [layer and not his own failure. yup all he says can be just as much seen in himself than the queen.
this is to stop owners from playing the game too hard like riles did and cuban an the celts for years and the lakers as well. it is about saving themselves from themselves.
tell me the league didnt buy into the hype and gain revenues from it as fans flocked in to either praise him or bury him this past season one of their most successful ones in memory and then blame it on labron and his narcissism …. puhlease.
Trade Horford for Bogut + Leuer:
November 3rd, 2011
3:33 pm
@darrell starks You should know the score by now, we’re not getting “SUPERMAN”. Dwight Howard will not be able to sign here and keep Josh and Horford.
Milwaukee was the 2nd best defense in the league iirc. Bogut for Horford is almost fair value considering Bogut’s elbow but a guy who would be a great replacement for Marvin Williams is Jon Leuer.
Great proportions. 7′0 wingspan flat and can shoot.
He’s also 6′11.5 Tall, fluid shooter off the pull up perimeter version of David Lee. In fact he worked Lee over in workouts. Post up small forwards if a switch occurs. Great at attacking the rim on drive and kicks. Unlike shorter Marvin.
Teague
Johnson
Smith
Marvin Leuer
Horford Bogut
This lets Smith play his inside role next to Bogut, Teague and Joe at the controls sucking in defenses and Leuer roam outside.
Once Teague stirs the drink and draws double coverage we have Leuer attacking (whereas before we had Josh outside, or Marvin
O'Brien
November 3rd, 2011
3:36 pm
doc,
David Stern deserves some blame (imo), because he helped get the train on the track it’s on.
When the league was struggling years ago, he pushed stars (Magic, Bird, MJ etc) and their teams (Lakers, Celtics, Bulls etc) to the front of the line. This helped build the NBA up, increase marketability, revenue etc.
But now, owners are complaining, because the stars of the league have too much power, and make too much money, so the owners want to reel them in. But I think it all started with David Stern.
doc
November 3rd, 2011
3:44 pm
stern is slick he usually sends someone else to provide the kicks. he didit by sending allen to blow it up then his protege while he took a doctors excuse. reminds my of poly sci magician adams at uga phd literally at it.
doc
November 3rd, 2011
4:02 pm
the way i see it amnesty only helps teams with deep pockets and haqks arent one if em. marvin is a warm body ajd right now that counts. we wont amnesty anyone as good as the concept sounds.
Grandad
November 3rd, 2011
6:07 pm
doc:
As always your points are valid.
However, when was I quick to note entitlements
and other inherent parts of any equation;
while turning a blind eye anywhere ?
All I did was enlighten this blog to the owners way of thinking;
according to the information I had gathered.
sources:
* Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo Sports
* Bill Simmons, Grantland
* Henry Abbott, espn
My remarks to you were entirely aimed at the
slavery / plantation analogy.
As stated in my last post – no need to defend your position -
owners vs players.
My position on that [ownrs v plyrs] is “play Ball”.
But, my ultimate concern is:
* -Competition- *
I wish for a competitive league. period.
A league based on competitive balance !
A league devoid of the NY Yankees.
Basketball, being a 5 man sport with 8 or 9 man rotations;
a team that can outspend (such as the Yankees)
would Kill professional basketball’s already teetering
competitive balance.
The system -is- broken !
LeBJ and his “Decision”;
was a tipping point for the league.
They had to stop that and -Now-.
Your remarks about Sterling, Gilbert, et al;
though egregious has nothing to do with “competition”.
There are “stupid people in all walks of life:
NBA owners, NBA players, NBA bloggers & posters,
physicians, grandfathers, chiropractors, musicians, Coaches,
and right on down the line.
One cannot take a stand against owners due to Donald Sterling,
Dan Gilbert, ASG, or Robert Sarver.
Neither can one stand for or against the players;
on account of ass clowns such as LeBJ, Kobe [admitted rapist],
Rodman (certifiable), Battier (intelligent), Steve Nash (Canadian),
Zaza ['cause he's from Georgia] or Jason Kidd *(color),
* by the way – if you had to pick a color – [ Kidd];
seriously, ? ? ?
I still say any comparison of NBA players to slaves,
any analogy at all does not hold water.
You talking about serious, vivid, tragic, points in history …
and linking those events to today’s;
NBA millionaires and the lifestyle they lead.
Please doc;
hear what I’m saying with the utmost respect.
Sincerely,
G-dad
EmirS.
November 3rd, 2011
7:06 pm
In addition to the Pierce/Johnson comparison,
Joe never shows that fiery spirit like Paul does. I never see Joe get into the face of a ref or another player like Paul. I agree skill-wise they may be neck and neck, but spirit on the court is all Pierce.
And as far as Marvin……the guy is getting paid big bucks. He knows he hasn’t lived up to his expectations. So why try? He’s gonna get paid for the rest of this contract. After that’s up…expect someone else to pick him up again with a contract well into the millions. If he’s being financially smart, he’s set for life.
Hey….anyone willing to bet that Marvin’s contract expires with the Hawks…and they choose to pick him up again?
doc
November 3rd, 2011
7:35 pm
my point also very strongly is competition comes with smart owners not some oft the bozos we all see as emperors with no clothes. yes to competition but it has nothing to do with money as isiah and dolan showed. nate posted a very revealing post from the economist that represents the nba and his argument and mine is money has nothing to do with the product in the end. read it if you havent and it might balance your comments you made here. yes, slavery is too strong and i regretted it, plantation mentality isnt. gilbert’s boy was stolen from him and he acted the clown act to the ninth degree.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 3rd, 2011
7:48 pm
The Great Debate!
G-Daddy & doc got a helluva debate going on here. It’s like watching a Grand Slam Tennis Match. My eyes can’t stay on the ball. He He!
I would chime in, but I’m too busy eating popcorn and sipping on Crown Royal & Cherry Coke. Oops! Can some one pass me the butter? Naw … I’ll keep quiet – both of you have stolen my heart and both Gents have made stellar points! No losers here.
Carry on! (LOL)
doc
November 3rd, 2011
10:18 pm
mc one got lost in the filter, please rescue?
brigadierjerry
November 3rd, 2011
10:47 pm
My point is that I know that Pierce is better than Joe Johnson. Pierece has swagger and is not afraid to make contact and make big shots. Pierce is tougher mentally I actually think that Joe johnson is best as a second wheel and the only way that happens is to get a player of dwight howard. He is better at blending in. He is kind of the player you dont pay attention to similar to what his role was in Phoenix because of Nash, Stoudmire, etc. If it cannot be done to get a star player then the move will have to be made to possibly have this team go in another direction and start over. Sometimes teams get only so many chances when they are very good team to get to the Finals or even win one. After 4-5 years of the same results it becomes reality that maybe it is time to go to another direction and by that I mean change in personnel. The year the NBA gets back on the court whether this year or next, I feel this is somewhat of a make or break year for the Hawks. If the Hawks cant make the conference finals, I think it may be time to blow this team up and the Hawks probably have peaked.
Grandad, I dont know if you agree but this Hawks team reminds me of the Bucks teams of the 80’s. Was always a very good team but could never get past the top teams. I feel like this Hawks team will be one of those teams when it is time to reflect that those Hawks team had their chances but just couldnt get over the hump.
Look at the Kings of years past They did get screwed that one year but they were a good team for about 4-5 years always on the peak of being elite but could never make it over the hump. I feel the Hawks are at that point now.
MOVE TO SEATTLE PLEASE !!!!!!
November 3rd, 2011
10:57 pm
GO AWAY hawks, nba BASKETBALL DOES NOT NEED TO BE IN THIS TOWN.
SEATTLE IS WAITING AND IF… THIS OWNER IS SMART, HE WILL MOVE THIS WORTHLESS TEAM THERE ASAP, WHERE THERE IS INTEREST.
ATLANTA NEEDS THIS TEAM TO MOVE, THIS LEAGUE IS WORTHLESS, UNINTERESTING AND I AM DAMN GLAD TO HAVE NEVER PAID A DIME TO EVER ATTEND A GAME OF THIS NOTHING TEAM.
THEY WILL BE MUCH BETTER OFF IN ALL RESPECTS IN SEATTLE, PLEASE MOVE !!!!
pitifulasgllc
November 4th, 2011
12:38 am
The slavery / plantation analogies in reference to NBA millionaires are a grave insult to all those who were actually subjugated in that horrific system. Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, Al Horford, Kirk Hinrich, ZaZa Pachulia, et al are all very well compensated for their efforts. Save the plantation references for the major college football and basketball players who generate billions and receive next to nothing for their efforts. Just my .02.
B-Grizz
November 4th, 2011
4:51 am
From the last blog:
“People still wating on Marvin to improve. LOL” – Rod from C.P.
Ya’ll laugh, but I’m not expecting Marvin to improve his game. He will still be the same soft player. Why do average players put up big numbers on bad teams? Because there are a lot of shot attempts available. When the other team is scoring against you at will, your team gets alot of scoring attempts at the other end.
What does this have to do with Marvin, since he’s not on a bad team? The analogy is still valid because Marvin will now see a significant increase in his number of shot attempts in the absense of JC1. Do I think he will all of a sudden stop being sorry? No. But his trade value will increase as his stats increase.
Speaking of laughing at my ideas, here’s Dei Lynam talking about how the 76ers should go after Kwame Brown:
http://www.csnphilly.com/basketball-philadelphia-sixers/news/How-would-Sixers-look-if-season-started-?blockID=586716&feedID=694
NikkiFree
November 4th, 2011
6:12 am
Joe Johnson still on the team? Yes? Well, I guess that means I’m still on strike against the Hawks.
Grandad
November 4th, 2011
7:32 am
doc:
You and I are are mast probably closer in philosophy
than you may think.
I really am on neither side.
I am on the side of the working man;
no not so much the players [union],
but the workers, venders, ticket takers, cab drivers,
hotel motel industry, bartenders an the like.
Also I’m an advocate of the fans.
Who reresents us in this negotiation ?
But one bargaining point / chip … I’m unwilling to cede’
is “power” -if you will- to;
immature, uneducated, ass clowns such as LeBJ.
He’s an admittedly talented player.
But, what gives him the wisdom -or- the experience to
shape a league for future years.
There are many serious minded, intellectually prepared, mature,
though broad minded players who are much better prepared
to see the big picture. Not just what is best for the elite.
Stacking the league with SuperStars in the Big mkts;
in my opinion is not any scenario in which I’m willing to support.
doc;
I’m weary from waging this snotknocker with you.
I’m akin to Larry David & you’re effectively Wilt “Goliath” Chamberlain;
while my sling shot is tangled up in my *loin cloth.
*(in my case it was my nut bra)
To my dear friend doc;
have a good day,
Sincerely,
G-dad
O'Brien
November 4th, 2011
7:38 am
JJ was #3 in Phoenix (behind Nash and Amare), but he wanted to be top dog, which is one reason why he came to ATL. And now 6 years later, we find out he is better as a #2 (although he has the talent to be a #1, he doesnt have the mindset, the killer instinct, the leadership etc).
He knows it too. Mr “I dont get all the credit when we win, so why should I get all the blame when we lose”.
O'Brien
November 4th, 2011
7:42 am
In other news, the players are considering decertifying. If that happens, I think we will miss an entire season, because the issues will go to court, and will take a while. And between players and owners, I think the players will feel it more.
I understand what the players are trying to do, but it looks like the owners will not budge from their 50-50 split (no matter the cost), so I can’t help but wonder if the players should bite the bullet.
dap01
November 4th, 2011
8:49 am
Hey NBA, no one will miss you. 50% of something is better than 53% of nothing.
Cecile Paluk
November 4th, 2011
1:33 pm
If you are new to collecting shoes and not sure where to start let me give you the rundown! Get your basic first: a set of black and brown pumping systems. Then work on your expansion of your taste, buy one fashion footwear that will be one outfit (it will cause you to buy more clothes to fit those hence expanding your own wardrobe) and constantly try your best to get a good deal. You will find that you will start having one associated with kind of shoes and you will won’t them so much.