Atlanta Hawks: Amnesty now?
Let’s assume the lockout eventually ends (please) and that two of the provisions reported by both SI’s Sam Amick and Howard Beck of the New York Times both are part of the new CBA: an amnesty clause and a “stretch” provision.
Beck reports that there is a “tentative agreement” for both items, while Amick says the amnesty clause is “resolved” and the stretch provision is “mostly resolved.” It’s also worth noting that David Stern has said more than once that there’s no deal on anything without a deal on everything.
Let’s also assume that Alex Meruelo will be approved to assume majority ownership of the Hawks in the near future. Should he/will he take advantage of these new CBA provisions right away? If so, on which player(s) should he use them?
First, the details of each provision as outlined by Beck and Amick:
- Under the amnesty clause, teams would be able to waive one player (already under contract) over the life of the CBA and the player’s salary cap would not be . Repeat: this will not be available for future contracts. It’s also not clear if the amnesty clause can be used on a player acquired via trade.
- The “stretch” provision would allow teams to waive a player and then spread the money owed out beyond the length of the contract. Both Amick and Beck say the formula is double the amount of years remaining on the contract, plus one. So if a player with two years and $10 million left on his contract is waived, he will be paid the $10 million over five years, or $2 million per year, with that amount also counting against the team’s annual cap payroll for five years. (Amick reports that the provision can be used once per year.)
Over at ESPN.com, Marc Stein and Chad Ford nominate Marvin Williams as Atlanta’s most likely candidate for the amnesty clause:
Sources with knowledge of the Hawks’ thinking insist that the team isn’t ready to give up on Williams. Atlanta apparently still thinks that, at worst, it can deal him away, despite the Hawks’ inability to find any sort of trade market for Williams up to now. The fact that Atlanta’s ownership situation remains highly unsettled, thanks to the latest revelations about Alex Meruelo’s attempt to buy the franchise potentially collapsing, might also buy Williams some more time in the ATL.
Yet most rival teams believe that, at some point in whatever amnesty window is ultimately made official, Williams and the remaining money on his deal ($25 million through 2013-14) have to go. . . .
Seems to me there’s some contradiction here. If the Hawks haven’t given up on Williams, then why did they shop him at trade deadline in each of the last two seasons? They certainly would trade Marvin if they could but there’s just been no market for him.
Anyway, the thing that makes Marvin a more likely candidate for the amnesty clause than J.J. is that the salary still must be paid after a player is waived. Do you think Meruelo would rather eat the $25 million owed to Marvin, a player who can be replaced by a player making less money, or be on the hook for $107 million to J.J. who–while making superstar money without superstar production–would be much more difficult to replace?
Wiping away J.J.’s salary now with the amnesty clause and keeping Marvin would make Atlanta’s committed payroll look like this over the next five seasons (not counting non-guaranteed deals and prorated amounts for canceled games and assuming Marvin exercises his $8.05 million option for 2013-15):
- $47.0 million for six players in 2011-12
- $41.8 million for five players in 2012-13
- $20 million for two players in 2013-14 (not counting Teague’s qualifying offer
- $12 million for two players in 2014-15
- $12 million for two players in 2015-16.
Wiping away Marvin’s salary now and keeping J.J. would make Atlanta’s committed payroll look like this over the next five seasons (not counting pro-rated salaries for canceled games or non-guaranteed deals):
- $57.0 million for six players in 2011-12
- $53.5 million for five players in 2012-13
- $32.5 million for two players in 2013-14 (not counting Teague’s qualifying offer)
- $35.2 million in 2014-15
- $36.9 million in 2015-16.
Assuming the cap continues to hover at about $60 million, the Hawks would gain significant and immediate relief by waiving J.J using the amnesty clause. They would have to wait until 2013-14 to see dramatic cap benefits from waiving Marvin using the amnesty.
But could the Hawks use the “stretch” provision to get better results?
Waiving Marvin using that mechanism would spread his $25 million over seven years (3 x 2 +1). The cap figures for each of those seven years would be 25/7, or about $3.6 million. It might be better to live with Marvin’s salary for at least another year (or two years, and then try to trade his expiring contract in 2013-14) than spread it out for what would be moderate cap savings.
Waiving J.J. now using the “stretch” provision would mean spreading the $107 million over 11 years (5 x 2 +1). The cap figure for each year would be 107/11, or about $9.72 million. That seems like too much dead money for too many years (and writing “dead money” makes me feel like I’m back covering the NFL).
A lot of this, of course, depends on Meruelo’s strategy, which is difficult to ascertain since the lockout gag order comes with the threat of hefty fines from the league and Meruelo hasn’t even taken control of the team yet. (These are also the reasons it’s been impossible to write anything meaningful about the Hawks, but I digress.)
Is Meruelo willing to eat salary and then also double down by adding to the payroll to replace the player(s) let go? Does he even have the cash flow to do so even if he wanted to? Or would the reported lack of cash flow make Meruelo even more likely to use the stretch provision on J.J. and then not try to replace him with comparable player, thus trimming Meruelo’s annual expenses significantly while tying up long-term cap money (and no doubt angering my blog people)?
Would ASG be willing to waive players and then add payroll while the sale of the team is in limbo? Would ASG do it if the sale of the team falls through? If so, would the current owners use one of the provisions now or leave that to the next buyer, assuming they find another one?
Shoot, could they even wait to use the amnesty or stretch provision? Just getting the roster to the minimum would push them over the current luxury-tax threshold, and I’m assuming that still is a no go no matter which owner(s) calls the shots.
My hope is that soon after the lockout ends the answers to these and so many other Hawks questions will finally be answered.
Etc.
Dinamo Sassari waived Hawks draftee Keith “Kito” Benson. Benson’s mother, Janice Hale, called it a “mutual parting of ways” and said Benson will work out at Oakland (Mich.) University with a focus on building his strength. Sportando Basket tweeted me a take on Benson’s departure. . . .
I’ve called and emailed Zaza to check on the reports of his injury but haven’t heard back yet. Will update if/when I do. . . .
It turns out Damien Wilkins’ “Monster Slam” exhibition game on Saturday will be at Clark Atlanta after all. Tickets and info are available here. . . .
Hoopinion notes that Pape Sy had a good game. . . .
Peachtree Hoops is part of a black-white thing. . . .
If you want to help ensure the comments stay open, please shoot me an email directly (mcunningham at ajc.com) if there is a troll issue. That way I can take care of it quickly and leave the thread open. The online complaint form does not come directly to me so usually I don’t see it until much later, if at all, and by then the comments are subject to being closed by the tech folks without my knowledge.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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165 comments Add your comment
J
November 2nd, 2011
12:10 pm
Marvin sucks – he’ll give you 30 points one night and then disappear for a good 2 months … ship em out
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
12:11 pm
Every time I think about Marvin and his contract, I can’t help but wonder what Rick was thinking. As if itsnt bad enough, the last year is an option year…and Marvin has the option (not the team). That’s just crazy to me.
As for the amnesty clause, I’m with AJ. I think Marvin is most deserving, but financially, I don’t think it helps the Hawks much. What the Hawks need is a good coach, and a good GM to make good decisions.
As for JJ’s trade value, I don’t think he will have any trade value until year 3 or 4 of his 6 year deal.
PLEASE
November 2nd, 2011
12:17 pm
The Hawks have to get rid of Joe Johnson. He is the most overpayed and overrated player in the league.
Bigdawg`
November 2nd, 2011
12:42 pm
My nickname for Joe is “Wall Street” Joe Johnson! He stole $120m from us and will never be prosecuted!
Imagine there’s no B-ball/It’s easy if you try.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:25 pm
Stole Money?
Hold up while I stop the belly-laughing. Wait, while I get up off the floor.
Joe was camped out in his LA Mansion when the FA clock began to tick. Sund flew a private jet, armed with “that” contract and some knee pads. He begged Mr. Johnson to sign that deal!
What would YOU do Bigdawg? Say, “No Thank You Sund, imma’ just sit here and wait for less money from another team?” If Mr. Johnson said, NO to Sund – then we would all say he was certifiable.” Please make comments that make common sense, at least give us that.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:38 pm
The Big Three Summit!
Oh yeah! And don’t forget, Joe was being courted by the likes of:
LBJ
DWade
Chris Bosh (that maybe a stretch)
Amare Stoudamire
DRose
All the super stars wooed Joe to come on board for a Dream Team title chase. Again, Joe choose the Hawks and of course the money was right. But, consider this, with the Bird Rights in place, no other team could offer any more, if so, they probably would have. Look how the Knicks gutted their roster for Melo and didn’t even make the play offs.
That’s my little take anyways.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
1:47 pm
* correction: the Melo led knicks ended their playoff drought this past off season. Kudos to them!
But, you get the point. LOL!
PMC
November 2nd, 2011
1:54 pm
Joe at least adds to the team. Marvin is scattershot at best.
I know the Joe money is bad, but at least they are getting something out of Joe even if it doesn’t show up in the playoffs.
marvin….doesn’t show up.
PMC
November 2nd, 2011
1:55 pm
I’m more perplexed as to why they would pay Marvin who has never really shown anything, than giving Joe a max deal.
Bonifide Big Man
November 2nd, 2011
1:58 pm
Great work sir! Any breathing room for the Hawks would be good since the payroll is over $60 million without a full roster filled out now
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:01 pm
Da Truth!
Go head on … PMC! It’s just common sense stuff. It’s not emotional.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:07 pm
Hugh?
“Any breathing room for the Hawks would be good since the payroll is over $60 million without a full roster filled out now” -Bonafide Big Man-
________________
Can you show us the over $60M roster tab for our signed players? And, can you check your math?
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:09 pm
Over an Under!
Well, if we are already sitting at over 60M and that is the new cap? Then we are going to have to move one or two of our current pieces.
Jimmy Crack
November 2nd, 2011
2:17 pm
…LIKE A HOT ROCK!
Let’s just all have a group hug and say one final time that WE SHOULDA PICKED CHRIS PAUL!!!
Amnesty, and then we can move on from that monumental error.
KBP
November 2nd, 2011
2:21 pm
drmaryb . . . Marvin had nothing to do with where he was picked and the expectations that come with it. I, like most, would have selected Chris Paul. I am talking about Marvin’s talent. He is in the upper half of small forward’s in the league talent wise.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:36 pm
Where?
“Marvin had nothing to do with where he was picked and the expectations that come with it. ” -KBP-
_________________
Show me where my comments said anything about where where Marvin was picked? Bottom line is … His play is turrible – Period. Amnesty him quick, I’ll take Damien Wilkins over Marvin, any day!
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
2:41 pm
Marvin hasn’t played up to the value of his contract. However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract? That’s a lot to pay someone who isn’t going to start this season. Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does (think about it Kirk was traded for Mike Bibby, – that’s his value now). I may would rather to get another point guard for under the mid level exception, and wait on a trade for Marvin because of annual salary.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:43 pm
Pay Check Johnnie!
KBP, Marvin is the equivalent of Samuel Dalembert. Neither one of them doesn’t even like basketball. It’s just a pay check for these two.
Marvin on his “At Home” segments aired all season long told the interviewer when asked, “Do you watch NBA basketball on TV at home?” Replied, “I don’t like to watch basketball games.” (para-phrased). Marvin said his favorite thing to do is “Sleep”.
Sam Dalembert, simply refuses to even bend over a pick a basketball up during his off seasons.
KBP, you can put Marvin on your team – I don’t want him on mine. I’m done talking about Marvin, unless he is being amnestied. Next topic please!
judy
November 2nd, 2011
2:45 pm
drmary…I agree with everything you said about Joe.Yes he did show up for the playoff in 2011.Joe really played hard.Have you notice every team we play they double Joe? That should tell everyone something about how good Joe really is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GO JOE AND THE HAWKS!!!!!!!!!! A true fan
KBP
November 2nd, 2011
2:49 pm
drmaryb … “It was a turrible pick” is in your post. I agree the Hawks did not need him at all let alone at #2 overall. My only point is he is a better player than what the last two years have shown and time will tell. I’d take Granger, Gay, Butler, but Damien? No way.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
2:54 pm
Girl Power!
Ms. Dee & Miss Judy is in the house! Now, I got my girls on board and that’s a good start! LOL!
Isn’t it fun hanging with the fellas? Sports Talk is real business and worth billions.
Re:judy: joe needs some help, we need some super-stars too. If we could just somehow get Dwight, we’ll all forget about CP3.
oldmike
November 2nd, 2011
3:12 pm
I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones. Great gifts athletically. (Marvin CAN jump out of the gym) But no real workout r4egimen. He is all rear end. Works if you are Tuner the Burner but not if you are in the NBA. Needs to lose the butt, work on hsi ball handling skills and save his money ’cause the gravy train is leaving the depot and the rest of his life’s a starin’ back at him.
Gatorhater
November 2nd, 2011
3:18 pm
Go Marvin . . . and please take Johnson and Smith with you!
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
3:26 pm
Ra’mon,
Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does (think about it Kirk was traded for Mike Bibby, – that’s his value now)..
1) Hinrich was traded for Mike Bibby, Jordan Crawford (who was a 1st round pick) AND the Hawks 1st round pick in this year’s draft.
2) According to hoopshype, Kirk only has one year left on his contract.
3) What makes him more valuable to the Hawks is because he can play backup PG and backup SG.
gregpatrick
November 2nd, 2011
3:43 pm
Couldn’t possibly care less. The NBA is a joke.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:46 pm
Value Added Services!
“However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract?” -Ra’mon-
_______________
SVG said it best after the Hawks eliminated the Magic in rpund 1 last season, “Kirk Hinrich was the difference in us losing this series.”
Kirk therefore, has value added services and he is tradeable, unlike Marvin has proven to be.
joe
November 2nd, 2011
3:50 pm
Enter your comments here
joe
November 2nd, 2011
3:51 pm
Maybe i am just stupid and can’t read but who the heck is J.J??
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:53 pm
KBP
One last thing here … “It was a terrible pick” was a jab to a well known blogger on here named: “it was not a bad pick”. Nothing more! Don’t read too much into that, I could care less where Marvin was picked – he still SUX and badly! You can move him into your house if you love his game so much. Sure blame everyone around him, but he still SUX and badly!!!
Now run along, we’re done wasking key strokes on that loser Marvin! He’s not worth the trouble. I promise you he is NOT working on his game in any gym. So, why do you care? – He doesn’t.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
3:55 pm
* wasting key strokes …
O'Brien
November 2nd, 2011
3:56 pm
KBP,
I’d take Granger, Gay, Butler, but Damien? No way..
Would you take Marvin for $7.5 mil, or Damien at $1.2 mil?
cp
November 2nd, 2011
4:15 pm
Its been a while since i posted but I hope all is well with all the bloggers..
I just don’t have the confidence that this front office will get it right when it comes to this roster. Has Marvin worked on his game or did he do his usual and workout with Sean May? I hope this lockout ends soon. Looks like I will be watching more college b ball than I have in the past. I really want to see Kentucky and Duke this year…
And not basketball related but that grand theft auto 5 looks crazy.
Rod from College Park
November 2nd, 2011
4:16 pm
“I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones.”
Please don’t disrespect Andruw Jones like that. Andruw was one of the top center fielders in MLB for a number of years, and won numerous gold gloves at the highest level. Marvin has not accomplished anything in the NBA, and has earned no respect from any of his peers or coaches in the league.
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
4:53 pm
O’brien, I forgot about the draft pick. I’m not sure if this is the last year on Kirk’s deal, or next season is. Because some sites say 2 years, and others say 1 year.
Think about this though. If there was a way to shred Crawford’s contract number (free agency), along with Marvin and Kirk (amnesty/trade), then that would be over $24 mil less than last season.
Remember, I am still one who favors an Al/Kirk for P. Gasol trade. Also ‘attempting’ a Joe for CP3 trade, even if CP3 doesn’t re-signs.
J
November 2nd, 2011
5:04 pm
dr maryb – you’ll have no complaints from me on your comments. Any knucklehead should know that Joe paid his dues. It’s not his fault they overpaid for him. And you’re right, all the other superstars did try to woo him to come play on their teams. He was supposed to be in Miami w/ D-Wade/LBJ but he turned it down to stay in Atlanta for the money. Chicago wanted him badly! Smart guy. Then again, you and i both know half of these people don’t read nor keep up on the subject of basketball. And that talk of Chris Paul, it’s way old.
J
November 2nd, 2011
5:06 pm
gregpatrick – get your @$$ outta here then, nobody cares about what you have to say … to me, you’re a joke for coming on here and even commenting
ant banks
November 2nd, 2011
5:13 pm
i say that we keep BOTH marvin and jj. what we REALLY NEED is a shrewed gm and a kick arse coach who can get somethin’ outta their players. i really don’t think that marvin would suck under a coach who will light fire to that arse.
3 years, we will be free and clear of marvin, 2 yrs if we use his expirin’ contract to get picks or better free agents.
USING THE AMNESTY ON EITHER GUY IS NOT PALATABLE TO ME. IMHO
Najeh Davenpoop
November 2nd, 2011
5:16 pm
“I think Marvin is like Andruw Jones. Great gifts athletically. (Marvin CAN jump out of the gym) But no real workout r4egimen.”
Andruw Jones hit 300 homers and won something like six or seven Gold Gloves as a Brave. I wish Marvin was half that good.
Marvin is more comparable to Francoeur, except if the Braves had given him a five year contract extension instead of cutting their losses and trading him.
Jay Dubu
November 2nd, 2011
5:20 pm
Hawks are in a salary cap pickle. Unless JJ begins to play up to his contract, they’re going to be hard pressed to add quality players.
If this lock out lingers on, I hope that the arenas are just as empty then as they are now.
Jay Dubu
November 2nd, 2011
5:39 pm
I’m all for the players “earning” as much as possible while they can. Due to the nature of their profession, their careers don’t typically span 15+ year, so they find themselves in their early to mid 30s, and being retired.
That said, there are a lot of players, 9 thru 14, that are making 750k plus. That is a bit much when you know that you’re not going to play in any games during the season unless something catastrophic happens.
There are a hand full up players that deserve to be payed 15 – 20 mil because they put fannies in the seats, and sell jerseys, hats, etc., but the leahue has absolutely too many players being payed that kind of money, without yielding those results.
I know that the mid to low salaries are inflated based on the top performers, but an adjustment needs to be made.
And no, the owners do not need to reap all of the benefits from an adjustment by the players. They should pass some of that on to the fans. There is no reason for a hotdog or 20 ounce soda to cost $4 or more. let alone a ticket to a seat where you can actually see and identify the players on the floor costing upwards of $80 for a single game.
FreshFromATL
November 2nd, 2011
5:54 pm
Damn, I love having the blog back.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
6:05 pm
@MsDee: “It makes them ‘greedy’ by not playing up to their potential and can STILL get a HUGE pay check every freaking month as if, “yeah I had a bad season but who cares, look at my new house, I mean, mansion I just bought and check out my new ride..52″ rims..etc”. It makes me sick that these guys cant just enjoy the money they ARE making just to get back on the court and PLAY FOR US FANS and stop worrying what the owners make cause at the end of the day, WE, MEANING ALL AMERICANS INCLUDING OWNERS, ARE IN A RECESSION RIGHT NOW. NO ONE SHOULD BE MAKING WHAT WE MADE SOME YEARS AGO, SO WHY SHOULD THEY STAY AT THERE PRESENT INCOME WHILE, US FANS, DECLINE????? Please answer that for me, MC!!”
i understand why fans feel this way about players who are overpaid. i would argue that the anger is misdirected except i know that fans get mad at GMs for making bad deals, too.
but the players are not expecting to make their present income. they’ve already agreed to givebacks that total more than $1 billion over the life of the next CBA. how much more should they give back? i don’t know the answer to that but i understand why players are resisting further cuts. also remember this deal is going to be for at least seven years, so it’s not just about now, it’s about the future.
Michael Cunningham
November 2nd, 2011
6:10 pm
@Ra’mon: “Marvin hasn’t played up to the value of his contract. However I must ask, why is Kirk not being considered also for the amnesty clause? Doesn’t he has 2 years at $9 mil each left on his contract? That’s a lot to pay someone who isn’t going to start this season. Marvin still has a higher trade value than Kirk does”
Kirk has an expiring contract, which makes him a more valuable asset than Marvin. no need to amnesty Kurt when a) he’s still productive and b) can be traded at the deadline, if not sooner.
Grandad
November 2nd, 2011
6:47 pm
Thanks for everyone who beat me to it;
Andruw Jones = HOF !
10 consecutive Gold Gloves, 5 time All-Star;
One time should have been MVP 2005
*[he was robbed, jobbed, & ka-bobbed]
*05 led league in HR’s (50+), RBI’s, + another GG.
How dare anyone compare Andruw to Marv.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
6:47 pm
Ant Farm!
“i say that we keep BOTH marvin and jj. what we REALLY NEED is a shrewed gm and a kick arse coach who can get somethin’ outta their players.” -ant banks-
___________________
This is true. Compared to Drew, Mr. Woodson fielded a more disciplined team. More so with Josh & Al being glued to the paint and Marvin fared some better as well.
Drew fell into the trap of trying to make a change, not necessarily for the better. This team as currently constructed is a proven 2nd round exit – every time. Even with what all Miami did to get better, personnel wise.
We just have to find a bench to help the starters, especially if we can’t find a center. We found our PG of the future, and he was firmly planted on the bench all the time. Some players, like Teague are just gamers and don’t show well in practice, or whatever the excuse was for not playing him more at starter minutes.
Ra'mon
November 2nd, 2011
6:55 pm
MC, didn’t realize Kirk’s contract was expiring this season (if there is a season, lol). But in that case, that’s great.
So I say package Kirk and Al for a superstar if possible.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
6:55 pm
MC
Fantastic blog today. Great research on your part to show us the difference in amnesty-ing Marvin versus Joe. That what just Too Much Good Stuff!
Nice job of setting the table and feeding the homeless and the hungry! LOL (homeless … He He) I thought we got foreclosed on for a minute there.
drmaryb.(*_*).
November 2nd, 2011
7:12 pm
Captain Kirk!
He’s nasty like Harvey Dahl! Why not keep Kirk and play him behind Joe at the SG spot. He takes better shots than Jamal (4 point king) and makes a high percentage beyond the arc. Thing is he never takes a bad shot from 3 point land and plays within the offense. Start Teague at PG and find him a back up. That would go a long way in balancing the PG and SG positions. Then move on to SF & Center, to help Josh and Al with some much needed size in the paint.
The Hawks are just too small in the paint to compete for a title, especially with Josh and Al doing the Tokyo Drift farther and farther away from the basket.
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
7:58 pm
I SAY KEEP EVERY ONE AND WAIT FOR 2012
STARTER 2012 TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, SUPERMAN
BENCH HINRICH, PAPE, MARVIN, ? , ZAZA
CHAMPIONSHIP
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
November 2nd, 2011
8:01 pm
TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, SUPERMAN
WOULD BE THE BEST DEFENSE IN THE NBA.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!