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Atlanta Hawks

Atlanta Hawks: Camp wrap

7:35 pm June 29, 2011, by Michael Cunningham

The Hawks broke camp today and now head for the lockout summer.
No matter what happens with the new CBA the Hawks are probably going to have to fill some needs by finding some values in free agency. They sure could use the summer league. “It throws a little bit of a wrench into things,” L.D. said. “We will just have to go with what we have as far as evaluating these guys.”
We already know the Hawks are looking to add toughness. What else? “Shooters,” L.D. said. “We need knock-down shooters. Not the guys that are capable of making shots. We need guys that they are open, they get that ball, the opposition is saying, ‘Uh-oh.’ Those type guys. Whether we will find them with these [camp] guys. . . . We had some guys that are pretty good shooters here.”
L.D. said the he suspects the camp was “very, very competitive” because the Hawks have so many open spots. He was set to meet with management today to compare notes on the players. “I will let Rick and them know who I like, they will let me know who they like,” he said. “We will talk about it as a staff and we will start making decisions. Some of these guys have other workouts. We will talk about the ones we do like, talk to agents and see if we can get them back to veterans’ camp.”
Joe Alexander followed up a strong D-League season with a good showing for the Hawks, who have an opening in the power rotation behind Al, Josh and Zaza. “I would love to be here, obviously,” Alexander said.
The lockout complicates matters for free agents like Alexander. “I guess if I get some kind of word from a team, I might stick around [this summer],” he said. “But otherwise I will have to look at options overseas.”
“When I think about [Alexander] when he came into the league, he was predominantly a jump-shooter and he took a lot of threes,” L.D. said. “He hasn’t taken one three since he’s been here in camp. Down low when he has the ball he really looks to finesse and then muscle his way to the basket. I think with him picking up a little weight and getting stronger I think he has pretty much solidified who he is, and that’s a four.”
Omar Samhan is a legitimately big dude–maybe too big. He’s not mobile or athletic.
Ivan Johnson looked stout, athletic and skilled. Johnson was productive in the D-League last season.
Johnson played with a real edge during the couple brief scrimmage sequences media types got to watch. That pretty much jibes with this take on Johnson by Jonathan Givony at DraftExpress.com
Seeing Keith Benson next to Johnson and Samhan (and even Alexander) was quite the contrast. “It’s something he’s going to have to get acclimated to as far as banging guys bigger and stronger than him,” Drew said. “During his collegiate career I’m sure he hasn’t banged with these type guys on a consistent basis. With a guy with his frame that can put some wear and tear on your body. Certainly I’m sure he sees where he needs to get stronger and pick up some weight. But I see some things that I really like about him. I think he can help this ballclub.”
The refs hired by the Hawks didn’t seem to be calling many fouls. I’m thinking that was by design. “We’ve got some tough guys out here, some guys that really look to bang and mix it up,” Drew said.
Zaza dropped by camp and, like Al, said he’s not sure if he would play for his national team this summer because of insurance concerns. Usually the NBA pays for the policies.

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

357 comments Add your comment

JoJo the Godfather

July 1st, 2011
2:29 pm

Your 4 and 5 aint gonna give you 15 and 12 pts every night and thats a fact…But the guards keep getting blamed?

That’s why its called an “average” ppg.

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
2:36 pm

yep..^^^^^^

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
2:39 pm

you need a bonifide superstar too win the whole enchilada.. only 9 teams have won the last 30 championship..And the Hawks haven’t been even close? A darn shame it is

slimjr,

Let me ask you this. Can you win with one superstar or does it have to be a minimum of two?Reason why i asked is because Dallas proved it with the one superstar as well as San Antonio has in the past and the Heat couldnt do it this year with two superstars.

My real question to you is what do you want the Hawks to do?Trade half of their team to be like what the Knicks did or you prefer to follow Dallas or another team model that works on fitting certain players in defined roles such as 3 point shooter rebounder defender?

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
2:41 pm

slimjr,

also i know you wanted Derrick Williams but we know that isnt going to happen. Tell me if you are Sund what would you do and give me what you think would be realistic moves

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
2:53 pm

If I were Sund I would retire!!! LOL….

Nothing much is gonna happen now that the lock out has commenced…

Guess we’ll have to blog about something else? lol….

Dirk has been trying for what 12-13 years? And w/o Tyson, Jason,and Marion he comes up empty again..In fact his game 6 #’s were not that great at all..

Miami is a whole lot closer then we are to a Championship..
Its only the 1st year and Bibby killed them… they were playing 4 on 5 most of the time with Bibby out there.. He needs to retire too.He is washed up

Once Labron masters the mid-range game he will bury folks in the 4th quarters..

Watch Derrick, hows he able to get his mid range shot off whenever he wants too. This dude is special. but he also shoots lights out from 3 pt range. His shot is more accurate than Ray Allens! Stay tuned…

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
3:13 pm

slimjr,

you know the nba three point line is further than the college one?your baing that because he is higher percentage points but you think he is going to be a better three point shooter than Ray Allen?

“Dirk has been trying for what 12-13 years? And w/o Tyson, Jason,and Marion he comes up empty again..In fact his game 6 #’s were not that great at all”

But my point is that they do have tysen Jason and Marion, that is why they won you cant discount that.

I agree that Miami will win some chips but why would u do to make the team better right now minus there is a lockout because we know there is one

Ken Strickland

July 1st, 2011
3:28 pm

Part of the reason Josh ends up on the perimeter is he clears out when JJ and Jamal decides to go ISO. Neither player is particularly good at using their speed and quickness to beat anyone off the dribble. In fact, they use their dribbling ability to beat people off the dribble, which usually requires clearouts and time consuming ball pounding.

JJ’s other problem is his lack of athleticism. JJ is a vertical jumper, just like Marvin, and both require both feet to be directly under them to elevate. That’s why JJ takes so many floaters rather than finishing strong at the rim. Dominique Wilkins had the same problem.

When driving hard to the rim, their upper body is usually leaning forward and their feet aren’t directly under them, which prevents them from elevating. As a result, Marvin often stumbles trying to get his feet under him, which also contributes to a lot of his blocked shots, and JJ seldom tries to finish at the rim.

Marvin can solve his problem, but not if he has to beat his man off the dribble. However, if posted up near the basket, he can get into the lane, plant both feet and elevate. He’s shown a very good postup jump hook, as well as a very good running hook, which he seldom uses. Both he and JJ should be routinely posted up near the lane, rather than being required to take their man off the dribble.

We’ve all seen Marvin jump out of the gym when he has both feet under him. LDrew has 4 good postup players he could use(JJ, Horford, Josh, & Marvin). He should rotate posting them during a gm to see where he has the best matchup advantages. None of them are good enough post players to consistently carry an OFF. But this approach makes us less predictable to DEF’s, and it keeps everyone on our frontline consistently involved in the OFF.

The biggest improvement the Hawks could realize won’t come from the players, but from LDrew. He has to do a better job of utilizing and/or maximizing the talent he has at his disposal. He needs to get more consistent production from Marvin, Pape Sy, Josh, Teague, Hinrich, Zaza, Rolle and Horford, especially Pape Sy, Teague and Marvin.

With his HC career potentially on the line this season, I’m hoping he’ll be smarter than Woodson when it comes to doing what he needs to get done.

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
3:30 pm

DW shot 56.8%, RA shot 46% from college 3pt. line..

Also Dirk has a Hall of famer in KID!

Cuban with the 2nd highest payroll in the NBA! Got to spend to win… lol…

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
3:37 pm

Ken,

You brought up some good points with JJ. He is very skilled just not very athletic which is a problem and why he doesnt get to the line a lot. Do you agree with me if the Hawks had another coach such as Doug Collins or even Monty Williams, they probably beat the Bulls?

Rod from College Park

July 1st, 2011
3:50 pm

Ken Strickland,

“Part of the reason Josh ends up on the perimeter is he clears out when JJ and Jamal decides to go ISO. Neither player is particularly good at using their speed and quickness to beat anyone off the dribble. In fact, they use their dribbling ability to beat people off the dribble, which usually requires clearouts and time consuming ball pounding.”

Totally agree. Josh is on the perimeter most of the time because of the bad offense we run, and the iso offense that we run when Joe and Jamal go iso.

“Marvin can solve his problem, but not if he has to beat his man off the dribble. However, if posted up near the basket, he can get into the lane, plant both feet and elevate. He’s shown a very good postup jump hook, as well as a very good running hook, which he seldom uses. Both he and JJ should be routinely posted up near the lane, rather than being required to take their man off the dribble.”

Marvin is possibly the worst post up player I have ever seen for his size, and wingspan. I do agree that if he would plant both feet and elevate, he should be able to take advantage of most matchups in the paint, but he won’t get that far. He will either stumble, get the ball stripped, or be pushed out of the post. His post game is the least respected portion of his game, and it’s not like any other portion of his game is respected. Teams routinely put small guards like Hinrich, Jameer Nelson….. on him in the post, because they know that he can’t take advantage of it. Not sure if we are watching the same guy, but there is nothing that Marvin does very good except shoot free throws. I know you will say that I’m hating, but I am not, I’m being very honest.

ArtMan

July 1st, 2011
3:53 pm

Trading Al for Motiejunas Hill and Thabeet –

Statistics are a helpful tool to use to supplement one’s own observations. However statistics used in isolation can be very deceiving.

If you really believe that Thabeet would be effective guarding the better centers then you are deceiving yourself. I’ve yet seen you justify any reasonable perspective that trading Al for a bunch of garbage players would better the hawks is delusional.

Have you actually seen Thabeet play in a number of games? From your explanations I would guess not. I have seen him play and he is horrible. The only skill he has is the ability to commit fouls.

Also if he is such a useful player then why Rick Adelman chose to play 6′6″ Chuck Hayes rather than Thabeet? What is your explanation for that?

There are a number of bloggers on this site who offer well thought out explanations for their posts. I don’t always agree with them but can respect their perspective. I know I am not always right and don’t pretend to be. However you continue with your bulls**t about this trade. Rick Adelman has more smarts in his little finger than you have in your entire brain.

If you have seen Thabeet play as often as I have you would not EVER consider such a trade.

ArtMan

July 1st, 2011
3:59 pm

I am glad that Sund did not trade Josh Smith. Sund’s role is to be a caretaker GM and I do not have confidence that he has the smarts to better the club other than in small incremental ways.

If I have little confidence that the Hawks will be truely competitive as long as ASG continues to own the Hawks. However if they are sold and the new owner hires a good GM and coach, then that would be a new ball game in my mind. The absolutely best thing that could happen is to have a new owner who hires good people and let them do their thing with minimum interference.

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
4:13 pm

TO make the team better right now. Teague has got to start and Marvin needs to come off the bench permanently.

Al plays the 5 for now, never the 4..until his dribble and post game is much improved.

Josh gets bench more often and quickly for not paying attention and trying to be like Magic

ZaZa gets more pt…

Got to find another guard because Hinrich gets in early foul trouble often because of his aggression on defense

Joe giving up the ball quicker when the defense doubles up and cutting to the basket for layup’s

We need a knock down shooter when the opposition switches to a zone…

Grandad

July 1st, 2011
4:15 pm

Open letter to vava74.

My last response to you began respectfully,
and your retort did not come across as same.
Therefore,
my only choice is to speak honestly & forthright.

Your rhetoric is appalling though benign.
`Tis baseless, counterproductive and hypocritical.
[if coaching is to blame for all Joe's shortcomings]
-then-
[why should Al not get a reprieve as well]

I heretofore grant thee thou award thine wishest most.
The “blog-nick-name-coinage-of-the-year-award” !
for “Diaper Al”…..yeeeeaaaa !!!!!
* originality, humor, on target, nonpareil.
Question:
Did you get the marketing rights ?
Did you get the trademark ?
Did you get copyright for the book title ?

Yes, I am quite a smart ass.
As are you my friend.

You, as well as others on this blog,
continually cite Al as remarking:
He wishes to move to the power forward position.
(thusly, he must be a sissy)
To my knowledge;
Al said two statements, one time each:
(1) “I think the [4] is my natural position” [paraphrase]
(2) “Josh and myself need some help” (inside) [paraphrase]
To which I would say; I fully agree on both counts.

Here is my statement;
-Bold-
and I will not shrink away from it,
nor will I argue with you about it,
Neither will I debate it…with you,
-here it is-
“Al is our # 1 resource, our best all ’round player,
the best teammate, the best glue player,
the most respected league wide, our best rebounder,
our best scorer…by volume, the face of the franchise,
the most marketable, a great kid, and………………….
a better basketballer than either you or I are bloggers.

Put that in your diaper and poop it !

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
4:23 pm

if Al was 6′4″ he’d be watching the NBA game on TV…lol

hawksfancents95

July 1st, 2011
5:10 pm

have y’all seen LeBron dunk on the kid at the basketball camp?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3bUb72KzFA

some of these comments are better than any of our rips we can think of about the hawks, but i guess it shows how much people dislike Lebron and wait for anything to diss him.
Best comments I thought
*That kids name was cleveland-patters195
*Got to get some ego back after being walked on by the Mavs-jameson63926
*That had to be at the end of the 3rd quarter-popo96
*i know that game is called knockout but dang!-sweetblackgirl
*I think the moron laughing in the vid shows what type of people are still lebron fans-pgbruiser1

Najeh Davenpoop

July 1st, 2011
5:15 pm

The funniest part of that video is the douchebag yelling “Worldstar”.

A concerned fan..

July 1st, 2011
6:22 pm

MC, are you going to be out of a job?

Grandmaster JeJe

July 1st, 2011
7:18 pm

Hip Hop Is Dead.

FIRE SUND

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
7:36 pm

Grandmaster Jeje,

Hiphop been dead since about 97

Slimjr,

Thanks for the response appreciate it. What part of the Bx you from?

Buddy Grizzard

July 1st, 2011
7:48 pm

You thought the NBA lockout was bad… just wait for the AJC.com blog entry lockout. I hope you all saved up.

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
7:53 pm

BJ, i am from the Northeast Bronx, a place called Co- op City…Where the ladies are pretty……lol

Slimjr

July 1st, 2011
7:55 pm

“You thought the NBA lockout was bad… just wait for the AJC.com blog entry lockout. I hope you all saved up.” lol

I hear ya Buddy.. The NBA will take year to recover if they take the year off…..sad

Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm

July 1st, 2011
8:21 pm

“In this situation we would need a free agent center to give us 5 pts, 5 rebs, and play some D. The same #’s we would be looking for from Pachulia off the bench in similar playing time.”

You do know unless you shoot 3s your #s go down. Are you comfortable with Al’s
lol @ Al being able to take people off the dribble in isolations in halfcourt.

How? pump fake left, pump fake right crab dribble?

“Can the Hawks get this kind of production from an 8-man rotation:”

no not without a superstar. The Bulls have a 10-11 man rotation. The Mavs as well.
Knicks Celts, and Miami have an 8 man rotation. They have superstars. We don’t.

Detroit Pistons 2004
PPG – 87.1, RPG – 44.8, APG – 19.4

Atlanta Hawks 2011
PPG – 86.3, RPG – 37.2, APG – 18.1

Chicago Bulls 2011
PPG – 92.5, RPG – 43.6, APG – 20.1

Pts per Quarter– (x4 = game)
Teague 4, Johnson 4, Smith 4, Motiejunas 4, Hasheem 2,
Bench: 20.65
Pts per Game-
Teague 16, Johnson 16, Smith 16, Motiejunas 16, Thabeet 6, = 70 points
Hinrich 3, Williams 3.25*, Mal.Thomas* (3), J.Hill* 6.6, Pachulia 4.7 = 20.65

Teague (9), Hinrich (3)
Johnson (9), Williams (3)
Smith (9), Thomas (3)
Motiejunas (9), J.Hill (3)
Thabeet (6.5), Zaza (

*= post/ Shawn Marion type threat

Rebs per Game –
Per 36 mpg:
Teague 3.1
Johnson 4.0
Smith 8.9
Motiejunas (x)
Per 26 mpg:
Thabeet 7.1
17 mpg:
Pachulia 4.5
Hill 4.7
Per 12 mpg:
Hinrich 1.0
Thomas (x)
Williams 2.0

That’s 35.3 rebounds with 48 player minutes left.

Motiejunas could be Boris Diaw or Kukoc on the boards and the Hawks still have 40 rebounds and 12 minutes to spare.

Hawks let the media dictate who they draft who they sign/extend etc
They have no credibility come postseason and maybe if Horford misses an All Star Game they’ll realize that they are not constructed for the playoffs. By then they’ll be a rebuilding team with no idea how to construct depth.

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
8:27 pm

slimjr,

I used to live in the Bx so I know Co-op City very well.Used to go to City Island all the time My mother worked at Calvary Hospital and my father at Con Edision in the Bx. Yes nice ladies. I still know a few of them up there still I have relatives still on Baychester Avenue Fordham Road Riverdale all over. I will be passing through the Bx this weekend to get my food. Lot of my relatives went to Lehman High School

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
8:31 pm

Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm,

Are you Ruhiel from http://www.realgm.com?

Buddy Grizzard

July 1st, 2011
10:02 pm

“If I were Sund I would retire!!!”

LOL… too bad Sund doesn’t have as much common sense as Slimjr!

Buddy Grizzard

July 1st, 2011
10:05 pm

“His shot is more accurate than Ray Allens! Stay tuned…”

WHOAH… hold up there killer… Ray Allen is the leading three point shooter in NBA history. I think Derrick Williams is a star but if his shot’s that good he’s the next Jordan.

Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm

July 1st, 2011
10:39 pm

Averages
Teague 13, that’s 36mpg if we’re going by regular season where we inserted him in place of a center (240-36 = 204 minutes left)
Johnson 18, that’s 38 mpg and ball hogging at his age (204 -38 = 166 minutes left)
Smith 15 34 mpg (166 – 34 = 132 minutes left)
Horford 16 36 mpg (132 – 36 = 96 minutes left)

Hinrich 10 – 36 mpg and eating into bigger shooting guard minutes in an ideal lineup.
( 96 – 36 = 60 minutes left)
Williams 12 – that takes 32 mpg. (60 – 28= 22 minutes left)
Pachulia 5 – 15mpg (22 – 15 = 7 minutes left)

{Free Agent Center 5 – on what kind of %, how many minutes? Roy Hibbert shoots 46% and he’s getting millions.}

5 points and 5 rebounds in 7 minutes!!! WOO frikin HOO.

Hawks have a terrible balanced roster. Crawford leaving may be great for defense but even with Jamal you guys struggle to score in the halfcourt.

You shoot the same percentages as other championship teams (near 40%) and lose by 20.
There is no other alternative than to split Horford into multiple pieces.

We won’t get any deeper and DEF than

Malcolm Thomas (12) + Josh Smith(36) power 3s for Teague and Hinrich
Pachulia (17) + Thabeet (26) + Hill(5)
Hill (12) + Donatas (36) a 7′1 240 lb Boris Diaw and a 6′10 power forward who is built almost exactly like Amare/Speights yet can play center

That is a rugged frontcourt and we haven’t even added Joe and Marvin as 48 minutes of 6′8 240 lb shooting guards.

Marvin is very good against the shooting guards we’ll see in the PLAYOFFS
Think about it, Wade playing 40 minutes a game = too tired to guard
245 lb Joe AND Williams.

Lebron and Mike Miller have to guard Josh AND Malcolm Thomas. I remember 219 lb Hakim Warrick posting up Lebron when he was with Chicago. Imagine if Lebron was playing 40 mpg and had to chase Josh Smith (236) and Malcolm Thomas (224) around?

I’m working on a list of championship contenders the past few years but the gist of it is that all contenders in the past years have a lot of Defensive elite players to slow the game down.

Horford plays best at a pace contradictory to playoffs. Up and down. His offensive rating is 118 points per 100 possession.

33yo Dirk’s pace was 118. We can’t not play at the same pace as Dirk and expect to win.

Our team pace is 89 possessions per game. 27th in the league. We can’t speed up without a center.

Contrary to popular belief having 6′8 “bigs” like Joe Alexander (6%) and Josh Smith (15%) and Horford (16%) does not help you run.

The other team gets the ball back on offensive boards and you have to defend all over again. Get more tired less rebounds more loose on offense etc.

Its a slippery slope. You see what Portland did with James Harden? They had Brandon Roy and look what happened we are missing out on talent just for Al Horford who has always been a tweener. Can’t defend the 5 and is not a gamechanger at the 4.

That means we need a superstar at the 1 or a playmaker at the 5. Fiscally impossible. I’m calculating The Defensive Wins and it is fairly obvious the need to Restructure the roster to become a championship Defense-1st team.

We’re never going to have a prime Stojacovic to complement Al’s pace and build around his limitations. Its more Detroit like to build on Smith’s Defensive Wins and get a 3 point shooter at the 4 for Teague.

The 2 point mid range is one of the worst shots in basketball if you cant slash to the rim.
Feast or famine and even worse is the fact he creates no separation on his own and his limitations on isos are just as bad as Joe overdribbling when Teague can get in the gaps with a simple screen from Thabeet or pick and roll with a power 3 or pick and pop with Motiejunas for 3.
Trade Al sign Malcolm Thomas, Motiejunas Thabeet and Hill.

If you can look past race Motiejunas skill level is Odom with more consistent 3 point and mid range

brigadierjerry

July 1st, 2011
11:27 pm

Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm

Are you a poster on another site with another name?

Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm

July 2nd, 2011
12:15 am