Atlanta Hawks: Camp wrap
- The Hawks broke camp today and now head for the lockout summer.
- No matter what happens with the new CBA the Hawks are probably going to have to fill some needs by finding some values in free agency. They sure could use the summer league. “It throws a little bit of a wrench into things,” L.D. said. “We will just have to go with what we have as far as evaluating these guys.”
- We already know the Hawks are looking to add toughness. What else? “Shooters,” L.D. said. “We need knock-down shooters. Not the guys that are capable of making shots. We need guys that they are open, they get that ball, the opposition is saying, ‘Uh-oh.’ Those type guys. Whether we will find them with these [camp] guys. . . . We had some guys that are pretty good shooters here.”
- L.D. said the he suspects the camp was “very, very competitive” because the Hawks have so many open spots. He was set to meet with management today to compare notes on the players. “I will let Rick and them know who I like, they will let me know who they like,” he said. “We will talk about it as a staff and we will start making decisions. Some of these guys have other workouts. We will talk about the ones we do like, talk to agents and see if we can get them back to veterans’ camp.”
- Joe Alexander followed up a strong D-League season with a good showing for the Hawks, who have an opening in the power rotation behind Al, Josh and Zaza. “I would love to be here, obviously,” Alexander said.
- The lockout complicates matters for free agents like Alexander. “I guess if I get some kind of word from a team, I might stick around [this summer],” he said. “But otherwise I will have to look at options overseas.”
- “When I think about [Alexander] when he came into the league, he was predominantly a jump-shooter and he took a lot of threes,” L.D. said. “He hasn’t taken one three since he’s been here in camp. Down low when he has the ball he really looks to finesse and then muscle his way to the basket. I think with him picking up a little weight and getting stronger I think he has pretty much solidified who he is, and that’s a four.”
- Omar Samhan is a legitimately big dude–maybe too big. He’s not mobile or athletic.
- Ivan Johnson looked stout, athletic and skilled. Johnson was productive in the D-League last season.
- Johnson played with a real edge during the couple brief scrimmage sequences media types got to watch. That pretty much jibes with this take on Johnson by Jonathan Givony at DraftExpress.com
- Seeing Keith Benson next to Johnson and Samhan (and even Alexander) was quite the contrast. “It’s something he’s going to have to get acclimated to as far as banging guys bigger and stronger than him,” Drew said. “During his collegiate career I’m sure he hasn’t banged with these type guys on a consistent basis. With a guy with his frame that can put some wear and tear on your body. Certainly I’m sure he sees where he needs to get stronger and pick up some weight. But I see some things that I really like about him. I think he can help this ballclub.”
- The refs hired by the Hawks didn’t seem to be calling many fouls. I’m thinking that was by design. “We’ve got some tough guys out here, some guys that really look to bang and mix it up,” Drew said.
- Zaza dropped by camp and, like Al, said he’s not sure if he would play for his national team this summer because of insurance concerns. Usually the NBA pays for the policies.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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357 comments Add your comment
Trading Al + Sy for Motiejunas SF Malcolm Thomas Jordan Hill and Thabeet {Sign Malcolm THomas and move him and Marvin to the bench}
June 30th, 2011
8:05 pm
“needs more ass” lol, maybe he Al will give him some
Trading Al + Sy for Motiejunas SF Malcolm Thomas Jordan Hill and Thabeet {Sign Malcolm THomas and move him and Marvin to the bench}
June 30th, 2011
8:05 pm
“needs more ass” lol, maybe he Al will give him some
O'Brien
June 30th, 2011
8:05 pm
Ken S,
I don’t think Nene is an upgrade over Al in terms of talent. What I do like about Nene is he is a “natural” center (although his rebounding numbers need improvement). However, Al considers himself a “natural” PF, and he has also talked about expanding his range, therefore going further away from the post.
When that happens, I think the Hawks will be forced to play Al at PF more, and therefore play Josh at SF more. I don’t like Al at PF, and I don’t like Josh at SF.
Therefore, if the price is the same, I would seriously consider a SNT of Al (or Josh) for NeNe, mainly because of fit.
Grandad
June 30th, 2011
8:13 pm
Larry Coon had a very good read on the labor sit.
Owners opened their books.
The players felt the books were disingenuous.
“In other words, $41.5 million of the Nets’ $49 million operating loss in 2005, and $40.2 million of its $57.4 million in 2006, is there simply to make the books balance. It is part of the purchase price of the team, being expensed each year. This doesn’t mean they cooked their books, or that they tried to pull a fast one on the players. It is part of the generally accepted accounting practice to transfer expenses from the acquisition to the profit and loss over a certain time period”
“the players would argue that it isn’t their responsibility when teams mismanage their franchises, nor for the portion of debt that is unrelated to the actual basketball operations of the teams.
In either case their argument is the same: some issues simply aren’t the players’ problem. Unless the players can share in the profit when a team is sold, they don’t want to be burdened with the costs associated with buying the team in the first place. And if they don’t have a say in the team’s management decisions, they don’t want to pay the cost when those decisions go awry.”
“As these financial documents show, the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. And so, sooner or later, will the solution.”
___________________________________________________________
When he started using words like
-extrapolate & amortorize-
I knew I was in over my head.
O'Brien
June 30th, 2011
8:14 pm
Najeh,
Thats an interesting read about the NBA team making a $7 mil profit look like a $28 mil loss.
The ASG claims they are losing money on the Hawks (I think $7 mil). Do you believe them?
brigadierjerry
June 30th, 2011
8:15 pm
Grandad,
Since you like player comparisons who do you think is a better player Reggie Miller or Ray Allen?I went to school at UCONN with Ray Allen. Actually very cool guy. Reggie Miller always suprsed me because when he shot after his shot was released he crossed his arms never expected shots like those to go in.
Also, does this Hawks team remind you of any Hawks team of the past?
Trading Al + Sy for Motiejunas SF Malcolm Thomas Jordan Hill and Thabeet {Sign Malcolm THomas and move him and Marvin to the bench}
June 30th, 2011
8:19 pm
Nene plays the same up tempo regular-season success fail in the slow down playoffs style Al does.
He tries to dunk everything and at 6′10 he’s going to run up against athletes.
In the playoffs centers are not going to score you get a cheap center like Collins, Horford cant stretch the floor and is too slow to play the 4 and Josh shows he can play the 3.
What do you do? Go and add more offense or trade Al’s 10ppg for defense scoring and the Mavericks model.
Grandad
June 30th, 2011
8:23 pm
Mr.
Trading Al for
Motiejunas Hill and
Thabeet {Sign Malcolm
THomas and move him
and Marvin to the
bench}:
Marvin’s got enough to go around;
Ajinca, Benson, Malcolm Thomas, et al,
with plenty left over !
If somebody told Marv;
– to haul ass –
he’d have to make two trips !
brigadierjerry
June 30th, 2011
8:33 pm
Did anyone see Gilbert Arenas twitter on his explanation of the lockout:
Some gold from Gilbert Arenas on Twitter (@agentzeroshow):
for the ppl who dont know why there lockin out..ill explain it in real ppl terms
Lakers Dallas Miami Knicks Magic Bulls Boston and a few others always have the best chance at the top free agents do to city and money
so the smaller cities team cant compete so they can never get better and there always losing money..so since they cant control each other
spending money on players they want us too do it for them by signing a new deal…its that simple
all the older owners hav made there money and selling to new buyers and the new buyers are gettn killed in these small cities…
but no matter what deal gets done..free agent are gonna go to the same cities ANYWAY…thats why the same teams stay good and the same teams stay bad…the owners with the most money will try to buy the best players..
so like the lakers just signed a 175 million dollar tv deal…but they dont want to share that with the rest.. they want US to do it
i know ppl are like u make 20 and r not worth it..TRUE..but the man who paid me thought i was too him..ur worth what sum one gives u..
i havent been to one meeting but i know when unrealistic ppl are tryin to make a statement there gonna do it..
its like me sayin i wanna play 52 mins a game every night..”well theres only 48″WELL find me 4 more mins then..if not LOCKOUT lmaoooooooooo
so when you heard u team say were REBUILDING all there sayin is buy our tickets watch us lose..clippers hav been rebuilding for 20+ years
and made one playoff series..u can be like okc and hav young talent but eventually ur gonna have to pay all those players and u cant
and then what happens..umm the famous REBUILDING ..lol its a rat race there tryin to get out of..and they need us to do it for them..SMH
i see ppl sayin teams like Spurs and Detroit did it..well spurs had a great team that got hit buy the injury bug in and got the number 1 pic
and got Duncan so from there they just built around him.and the piston got lucky all the free agent they got was very cheap but good players
and thats why they broke up..they were worth more then they were befor…
so i dont see it ending sooner but hey who knows…theres 100 items to get though were at i think 1 lmaoooo
trust me there gonna sit back and let us kill ourselves like last time…so imma tell yall the truth but no disrespecting anybody…theres no need for all that.if ur boss wants to pay u less he has a right to try and do so…so hopefully yall dont suffer i can play Wi basketball
even if they hav pay cuts then what….r they gonna give out free food with all the extra money there gettn ummmm no..there gonna do
get a new 20 million dollars score boards SMH and still scream were losing money..lol this basketball thing is pocket changes to this owners
so ill see yall at midnight….gotta go take sum free stuff…lol..
Najeh Davenpoop
June 30th, 2011
8:51 pm
That Twitter rant from Gilbert Arenas is pretty accurate actually. The single biggest problem in the NBA labor dispute is the lack of a workable revenue sharing agreement between the teams, which is a problem the owners have to figure out with each other. If the NBA had the NFL’s revenue sharing model, and the owners of big market teams were forced to share revenues with teams like Charlotte and Indiana, the labor situation wouldn’t be nearly as dire.
And owners know that the public is not going to sympathize with the players — particularly in a league whose most recognizable players are minorities with tattoos — so they know that from a PR standpoint scapegoating the players and trying to get them to pay up instead of solving the revenue sharing problem amongst themselves is a workable strategy.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 30th, 2011
8:53 pm
“The ASG claims they are losing money on the Hawks (I think $7 mil). Do you believe them?”
I will say this about NBA owners in general and the DASG in particular — I have an easier time believing that they are in a bad financial situation than the NFL owners who are embroiled in a lockout right now. I can believe that the DASG lost more money on the Thrashers than they made on the Hawks. The Hawks are in the bottom third in attendance and the top third in payroll, so believing that they were strapped for cash is not that much of a stretch.
But I don’t believe that 22 out of 30 teams are losing money, like David Stern wants us to believe. I think if the NBA shared its national TV revenue every team would be profiting.
Trading Al + Sy for Motiejunas SF Malcolm Thomas Jordan Hill and Thabeet {Sign Malcolm THomas and move him and Marvin to the bench}
June 30th, 2011
8:54 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH17qPORdu0#t=0m54s
^^^
can Hasheem use 6 fouls for Dwight? yes.
can he flash to the rim when Carlos Boozer is guarding him?
What were we 10 and 0 when Jason Collins scored lol. Horford cant cut it in the playoff’s 7 points and {4 rebounds} wont cut it.
I wish he doesnt make the All Star Game just to see how the popular media shifts. By then nobody will want to trade multiple above average players for Horford and Hawks will be back to 1990s.
Unless this trade is made the Hinrich for a pick will set the Hawks back 10 years.
Playing big raises everybody’s percentages pushes Marvin to be a possibly faster slasher than Joe on the bench and with [Malcolm Thomas] he’ll have a better shooting sleeker Josh Smith-Taj Gibson type who can play inside out.
Imagine if Deng had to guard Malcolm Thomas AND Josh Smith the whole game.
CAVEAT: Smith when 236 lbs was heavy and looked slow but his #s were as good as Iguodala’s. He reached 15.5% Win Contributions.
That means every 6 games he was helping us win 1 game.
He ended up with 9.3 games. Carmelo Anthony’s career season 21yo – 9.3 wins.
Jeff Teague (13%*)/Kirk Hinrich (13%)
Joe Johnson (13%*)/Marvin Williams (13%)
236 – Josh Smith(13%)/ Malcolm Thomas (13%) – Richard Jefferson is 16% for his career
x* / x*
x* / x*
48 minutes per game* 77 games/ 48 * (13%)= 7.5 wins.
That means if we filled out the team with Taj Gibson, Marreese Speights (rookie year), Iguodala/Gerald Wallace type, josh Smith type role players we’d be a
50 win team over 77 games.
that works out to a 53 win team.
Thabeet was 11% his rookie season playing with frikkin Zach Randolph OJ MAyo and Demmaree Carrol defending.
Heck I think Marc Gasol played power forward.
Brook Lopez is 11% Center and will be payed millions for his offense
* x (PF)= D.J. White, Taj Gibson, Jordan Hill, Marreese Speights, Chris Andersen, Kevin Love, Greg Monroe,
* x (C)= Al Horford (18%),
guys who arent above 12% or 13% WS – Monta Ellis (3%), Chris Kaman – 6%
JOSH SMITH UNLOCKS OUR TEAM’s POTENTIAL
(minus slow Al)
When 230 lbs we have the defensive equivalent of Carmelo Anthony at his peak and we want to trade him for a 28 yo Chris Kaman.
“Just wait for Keith Benson to grow into his 23 yo body” lol wut. Hawks Franchise should be ashamed of themselves.
Slimjr
June 30th, 2011
9:30 pm
“And owners know that the public is not going to sympathize with the players — particularly in a league whose most recognizable players are minorities with tattoos — so they know that from a PR standpoint scapegoating the players and trying to get them to pay up instead of solving the revenue sharing problem amongst themselves is a workable strategy.”
Arrogant aren’t the? (owners) do unto others as you want done unto you?
* Link
* Report this comment
Slimjr
June 30th, 2011
9:33 pm
“What were we 10 and 0 when Jason Collins scored lol. Horford cant cut it in the playoff’s 7 points and {4 rebounds} wont cut it.
I wish he doesnt make the All Star Game just to see how the popular media shifts. By then nobody will want to trade multiple above average players for Horford and Hawks will be back to 1990s.”
Wow, interesting take on All NBA?
Dept. Of Unintended Irony
June 30th, 2011
9:41 pm
“Jamal’s productivity dropoff was likely a result of Josh Smith being in shape and playing with energy.”
Yeah, ‘cuz we all know that one has everything to do with the other. By the way the dark tonight is likely the result of how tired the sun is.
“Unless this trade is made the Hinrich for a pick will set the Hawks back 10 years”
And IF this trade is made, it’ll set us back 20. Or more. Never again would we have even the shred of credibility we currently possess.
Grandad
June 30th, 2011
9:58 pm
brig
Ray Allen;
and I’m glad you brought up the both of them,
as I would much prefer either,
over D.Wade who’s a non-shot maker. [perimeter]
(I like my two guards to make shots from outside)
I chose Ray Al because he has a ring and at least
since he became a Celt he is the better defender.
__________________________________________
I remember -no- Hawks team like this one.
Most Hawks teams have at the very least had balance.
This one (this bunch) is maybe the 4th most talented group.
[of Atl Hawks]
The mis-matched parts are unusual.
I consider Balance as an integral component to success.
Grandad
June 30th, 2011
10:00 pm
* [two guards as in [2] guard]
brigadierjerry
June 30th, 2011
10:10 pm
Grandad,
I actually agree with you I like two guard that can make shots as well. Kevin Martin is a good one as well as Allan Houston from years back before his knees gave out. One thing I want to bring out I much prefer skill players over athletic ones. An example or two examples of that are Paul Pierce and Joe Johnson and even Dirk. Sometimes they arent graceful and they arent fast but they can get their shot off and can create. Bird was like that even Magic. Even Duncan that is why he is called Fundamentals. Remember Sabonis who played for the Blazers?What a tremendous player he was and he can to Portland after his Prime. Also you know who is a player I think is very underrated is Luis Scola Good player and can score on the blocks and doesnt rush things and is a good passer. He is a more skilled version of Zaza. I would be very interested if he ever came on the Hawks the type of team they would become.
I also agree with balance is integral for a team.
brigadierjerry
June 30th, 2011
10:15 pm
Grandad,
Do u have any favorite Hawk teams from any decade and why?
fan of the game
June 30th, 2011
10:26 pm
NBA lockout! 22 teams losing money. Whose fault is that?
brigadierjerry
June 30th, 2011
10:40 pm
Intresting read in regards to the lockout:
You have to lead by example. That’s always been pretty clear. You can’t expect people to follow what you say unless you walk the walk. So now that the NBA has entered into the deep dark lockout landscape, things are about to get real. No more t-shirts, no more slogans, no more parading. This is the real thing, and the money will stop… well, in November, since that’s when most of the players contracts under the last CBA run through. But still! The money chokehold is about to get serious, and some players have some questions for their leadership.
Yahoo! Sports reports that after Kevin Garnett did his usual over-dramatic rabble-rousing last week, Shane Battier asked a question of the union president, Billy Hunter. Would he take a paycut, just as NFLPA Executive Director DeMaurice Smith did? Hunter sidestepped the question, then the rest of the executive board came to his defense, according to the report. But Hunter’s evasiveness of the issue calls into question his commitment to the cause, and exactly how much he’s “in the trenches” with the rest of the players for what Hunter has set up to be a very long lockout. Yahoo! also reports Hunter was granted over $1 million last year for unpaid vacation. Which is categorically insane independently, considering his job structure and responsibilities, but whatever.
Perhaps most concerning from the players’ perspective is this quote from Yahoo!, from a player regarding how Hunter conducts himself in response to union representatives voicing questions or concerns:
“Billy isn’t afraid to embarrass you in front of other players, if he doesn’t like your line of questioning,” an Eastern Conference player said. “He’s done a good job keeping us informed and fighting [NBA commissioner David] Stern, but I don’t need to be lectured by the guy. I’m allowed to ask a question.”
via Hunter sidesteps question on pay – NBA – Yahoo! Sports.
That’s bad leadership right there. As is declining a pay cut. Even if you structure it differently to ensure you get the same money eventually, you need to in order to be side-by-side with the players who pay you to represent them. Otherwise, you have a system wherein someone who isn’t taking responsibility allows months and months to go by without negotiations, waiting until the last minute to enter into serious conversations and only then taking a stand against progressively stronger tactics from the owners.
Oh, right, that’s exactly what happened.
The players’ side has been considerably more willing to compromise during this entire process, and up until the last few weeks have conducted themselves in a much more professional manner. But the fact remains that Hunter has been out-flanked badly in this process, and now he’s stepping into snares from his own players, even as the trap-setters say “Don’t step there!”
Whether the center can hold will determine if the players can avoid getting routed in this process over the coming months.
Final note: Is there anything more perfectly exemplary of the discrepancy among the players? Kevin Garnett brings t-shirts with “STAND” on them and does his dramatic yelling trick, and Shane Battier asks a relevant, important question. One is celebrated, the other shut down. Does not inspire confidence for the players’ side in this.
hawksfancents95
June 30th, 2011
10:57 pm
how awesome would it be if we could do an ownership style like the green bay packers have. we could sell shares off and we’d set a cap so no one single person could have majority control of the franchise. we’d vote a club president to represent us in owner meetings. I dont know if the NBAs ownership rules are like the NFLs where they only allow 32 owners and at least one has to have a minimum 30% stake. it would be amazing if they had sold shares off and it was a public owned team. i dont have much money but id definitley buy as many shares as i could. im sure all of us bloggers would account for a lot of the public owned shares and i know our first moves, fire Sund, fire LD, and trade marvin for anyone.
I got a disturbing joe alexander youtube video. its long but i only watched the first 2 mins and i know why he was a lotto pick. he has good low post skills. i know this is vs college guys but my GOD. give it a peek. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdAYyqSOuPc
he should make our team in the 10-15 area of our rotation
Ken Strickland
June 30th, 2011
11:24 pm
OBRIEN-I didn’t mean to give the impression that I don’t like Nene or wouldn’t want him to become a Hawk, because nothing would be farther from the truth. It’s just that his rebounding isn’t good enough to resolve that issue. I think we’d be better off keeping Josh and AL and acquiring a DEF minded backup center.
If I had to trade for a starting center, I’d much rather have Dalembert, who’s proven to be a solid and impactful rebounder and defender.
Ramon
June 30th, 2011
11:27 pm
This may seem like too much, but I wonder if Phoenix would consider a sign and trade of Vince for Marvin. I know Vince can’t lead a team anymore. But I refuse to believe he couldn’t be a great fourth option on this team. Having Vince for 2 seasons at $3 mil per, isn’t a bad investment when considering what the Hawks pays Marvin. I would actually be for signing Vince and Redd to go along with Lighty. You should be able to get both of these players for less than the annual salary of Marvin’s. With Vince, you have a veteran who knows how to get to the free throw line, and would thrive scoring with the second unit (Vince in his prime was WAY better than Joe- so he should be able to teach all of the guys something).
Ramon
June 30th, 2011
11:29 pm
O’brien, I’d rather keep Horford and Josh, while acquiring Dalembert before giving up one for Nene. Now I would give up Horford for Jordan though if that was an option.
Ramon
June 30th, 2011
11:34 pm
I also wouldn’t mind seeing Shannon Brown considered.
Trading Sy and Horford for Rocket big men and #14 + 23/2nd rounder picks for Donatas & M.Thomas
June 30th, 2011
11:37 pm
Those aren’t low post skills thats just him dunking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKosBf3gn-o
Grandmaster JeJe
June 30th, 2011
11:41 pm
FIRE SUND
FIRE ASG
YOU ARE BOTH THE REASONS FOR THIS LOCKOUT
Grandad
June 30th, 2011
11:50 pm
brig
I like teams (and players) that play hard;
for that reason Joe rankles me.
[he takes too many plays off on def]
-&-
[he never makes hustle plays]
In Joe’s behalf – I admire fundamental players,
such as Duncan as you mentioned,
Battier being my current favorite.
Hawks teams:
I like teams that are well coached;
for that reason I liked the Fratello teams.
[pre-Malone yrs / nothing agin MM, (the chemistry issue)]
I really liked the early years…
but things didn’t stay the same…long enough.
Zelmo Beaty, Joe Caldwell, Bill Bridges, Paul Silas, Lou Hudson.
I liked the Maravich years as well.
*(mainly I just liked Pistol Pete)
When you mentioned Sabonis…it got me thinking:
What coulda been;
Bill Russell / Dr J. / Sabonis / David Thompson / Pau Gasol
All were drafted or signed by the Hawks
but for one reason or another they never played
in a regular season game for the Hawks.
(Dr J – played in 2 pre-season games)
There were probably a couple others,
memory is failing.
Those Guys:
Playing with Maravich – makes a person wonder -
how different his career would have been ?
The hawks history ?
hawksfancents95
June 30th, 2011
11:57 pm
haha JeJe 11:41
that malcolm thomas video is him playing against 6′6 guys. he looks as skinny as magnum rolle and keith benson. i liked malcolm at SDST, i actually had SDST vs L’ville in the 2011 NCAA tourney for my bracket beacuse i liked kawhi malcolm and their big wide dude. but if we are going to take a backup id rather take joe alexander because he is stronger and already has NBA experience and id feel more comfortable with him getting spot minutes than an undrafted rookie. i know joe got put in the d-league and chicago didnt renew his contract for reasons but i still think he can be more effective than malcolm.
Can someone plz answer my ? i posed about trading marvin williams for travis outlaw? NJ spent 7 mill over the next couple years and travis didnt really give them what they wanted but i think if travis comes back to closer to home(starkville MS)(among other reasons contender,defined role as 2nd unit scorer) he can get back to being a good 3point shooter and let us feel better about 7 mill off the bench. i know if no1 responds it usually means no one cares, but this is a legit trade to rid of marvin i think.
Ramon
July 1st, 2011
12:02 am
Grandad, and that’s why I respect Lebron, when so many others take knocks on him. Very rarely will you not see Lebron go full speed after a loose ball. How many cameras or front rows have we seen Lebron run into. And how many have we seen Joe run into? Out of all the NBA Finals teams of the last 4-5 years, each of their best players would come close to breaking their neck to get that ONE extra possession, but not Joe.
Grandad
July 1st, 2011
1:26 am
Ramon
Duly Noted…..about LbJ.
I respect his on court -play- itself.
I will leave him alone for the time bein’ on other stuff,
too many people taking pot shots at the young man right now.
vava74
July 1st, 2011
3:07 am
ummm…
a few commentaries. This Joe Alexander dude seems to have good fundamentals (slashing) and an absurd physical gift (leaping).
I read somewhere that the Bucks totally miss managed him by trying to make him a jump shooter at the SF slot when he is clearly a poor man’s Griffin with potential to be a productive bench player from the PF slot.
Speed and jumping ability is not an issue, so he could improve on D. Intriguing, to say the least and definitively worth looking into again.
Grandad,
about JJ not hustling and taking plays off on D.
Granted, but JJ was called to shoulder 90% of our offense on energy wasting ISO-plays AND make up for Bibby and Jamal’s defensive inefficiency.
There is a limit on how much a guy can do.
How many 6′8” 240lbs guys do you see in this league capable of chasing around on D 6′1” 190lbs PG’s like Jennings?
His praise for Teague all season long indicate to me that he will feel very motivated to play hard on both ends with his “new” back court mates (Teague and Hinrich).
There are few players who can – as JJ did already – match up with Wade and beat him on both ends of the court.
Last year was an aberration, IMO, due to the elbow situation. JJ played WELL in the playoffs and was there in every single win when we needed him.
Look at the game logs and check popcornmachine.net and see how and when he came through in the playoffs.
I said it once and will say it again: he is not Kobe nor Wade but he is a heck of a player.
It’s not his fault that he was being offered 100 million by NYK and ATL had to supplant that with an extra year.
In spite of my criticism of Diaper Al, our core with a few complementary players has the chance to be a dangerous and very competitive team.
Unfortunately, we lack coaching.
The CHI series was ours to take and we missed on that on account of LD being thoroughly out-coached and Diaper Al crapping his pants (due to bad coaching throughout the season, allowing him to go softer and softer with his game).
Worldwide Clyde
July 1st, 2011
3:30 am
FIRE LD
Buddy Grizzard
July 1st, 2011
4:03 am
“Can someone plz answer my ? i posed about trading marvin williams for travis outlaw?” – hawksfancents95
I don’t think NJ does this trade out of concern over Marvin’s back.
Grandad
July 1st, 2011
4:25 am
vava
Respectfully,
Joe does not have to carry the burden on offense.
he chooses to cling to his fixation on Iso basketball.
LbJ, (whom I don’t particularly care for) Larry Bird,
Manu Ginobli, Kobe, Jordan, Havlicek, Shaq, (early years)
Rondo, Paul Pierce, KG, Rip, Barkley, Dave Cowens,
The 86 Celtics, [the whole team] Iverson, Malone-Karl,
all of Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Alonzo Mourning.
These guys didn’t take plays off, were leaders,
rebounded, played defense, played hard, hustled,
lead by example, and generally did not make excuses.
Some of these were not 6-8, 240 – but some were bigger.
Iverson was a mite yet he was considered the toughest
player pound for pound in the league. (voted by his peers)
I reckon my point is…I have problems that arise from Joe’s
lack of commitment to leadership, defense, and overall
playing hard & hard nosed B-ball.
You continually critique Al,
disrespectfully, I might add,
so I suppose the burr under my saddle is Joe.
About Al…try and remember the game in which Griffin
took him out. [bush league / cheap shot / flagrant / malicious]
Al got up and like a pro went to the line and made his free throws.
*[winning the game in the process]
That night he was a hero (not any derogatory name) you coined.
Funny how one bad play-off series, turns people against someone.
Oh Well.
At least we are in agreement on Joe Alex !
It is your privelege to call our Hawks by any name you choose.
It strikes me as odd to name-call one of own.
Criticism = yes…fine.
Name callin’…I have resolved to no longer call Joe harsh names…
even for the sake of humor.
I’ve never called Marv names, though I have made light of his arse.
[in jest]
Sometimes, our folks just seem malicious;
and the funny thing about that,
malicious was a word I used to describe Griffin’s cheap ass foul.
vava74
July 1st, 2011
5:54 am
Al Horford is soft, a wuss.
FIRST:
It was not ONE playoff series. He was mostly neutralized by Bass and Ryan Anderson too.
Also, last year, against MIL he was punked by Kurt the mummy Thomas and completely checked out on a couple of games.
Then, against ORL is one of the first quiters. ALWAYS MOVING AWAY FROM HOWARD: never contested a dunk, never tried to take a charge, you name it.
I think the turning point was earlier in the season when Howard decked him with an elbow to his mouth and dunked on him with no call. From that point onwards, Al went into his “I’m not a C, I rather play PF because there are bigger guys than me out there”.
SECOND:
A game against the Clipper is MEANINGLESS in comparison to his playoff performance.
If Al had to play against the Bad Boyz Pistons, he would not even leave the locker room shaking in fear.
SOFT, SOFT, SOFT.
On JJ:
JJ gained bad habits on account of poor coaching. Bad habits take time to shake off and need to be replaced with something that works and that he can buy into.
Earlier in the season this last year, JJ was the most active player putting the motion offense in practice:
He set picks, prowled the baseline (who many baseline cuts did you see him dunk earlier in the season in comparison to his previews years – jointly)? and he used picks for quick penetrations and floaters.
It was first LD who ditched the motion offense when he shrunk the rotations and started to rely more and more on Jamal to play the point.
Most of the season the Hawks started the first quarter well – with motion and team play – and then it wore off completely at the 6/7 minute mark: Jamal would come in and the team play disappeared.
Bad habits are easier to pass on and more difficult to extract.
Jamal did have a terrific series against ORL. I acknowledge that, but he was miss used by LD in a way that was detrimental to the team play concept we saw early in the season.
JJ’s play, on both ends, suffered from that. He was willing to change the way we played and if had been playing from day 1 with Teague and Hinrich you can bet your keister that his overall play would have been better.
JJ carried his load against CHI and showed up. He was there in the mix and brought his game to the series.
Al didn’t show up and he was supposed to be our newly enshrined #2 with everyone asking him to be #1.
Al’s stats have been very good because he sticks to the basic and never takes the responsibility to carry the load.
His FG% and efficiency were excellent because he rarely took bad shots.
That’s a good thing for a #3 or #4 guy and that is precisely what he is, a #3 or a #4 (WHEN PLAYING C).
Give Al more FGA and his % will plummet.
Trading Sy and Horford Malcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm
July 1st, 2011
6:26 am
We need to stop trying to fit square pegs into a hole.
“that malcolm thomas video is him playing against 6′6 guys. he looks as skinny as magnum rolle and keith benson. i liked malcolm at SDST,”
that malcolm thomas video is him playing small forward lol. The small forward is Carmelo, Marion, Lebron.
Big forward is Dirk, Gasol, Garnett we’re trying to compete with those guys.
The center position and everyone who can stick their hands up without fouling Dwight Howard and make it thru a season without getting injured.
A a championship-caliber seven-foot-plus player whose defensive rating is so strong that even with a negligible contribution on offense he still remains in the 75th percentile among starting centers this year.
A tremendous upgrade who’ll keep offense alive for teams.
I’m not going to lie Motiejunas as a 4 and Thabeet would only fit on a few teams. Hasheem can’t be the best defender on his team ala Houston/Memphis with Kevin Martin Rudy Gay Marcus Williams.
“Give Al more FGA and his % will plummet.”
We have no set play to run except the pick and pop. Thabeet and Dalembert can score on Dirk but Horford gets blocked by Stoudemire and outphysicaled by a myriad of 6′10 guys.
“Jordan Hill comes back home(Atlanta, Georgia)(among other reasons contender,defined role as 2nd unit scorer) he can get back to being a shotblocking Leon Powe he was upon trade before Adelman did his thing. I know if no1 responds it usually means no one cares, but this is a legit trade to reboot the Defense and Wins everyone says he wants.”
::::::::::::::::::
Just to let you know allowing 105 ppg prt 100 possessions is not contending.
That’s top 15 and points to tremendous flaws. Small ball, Personnel etc.
As a 5 Al’s #s are almost prime Brad Miller, but not Dirk like (super fast) and not Amare type (beat man off dribble or fineese).
Mr. Robotic
Trading Sy and Horford mMalcolm Thomas Motiejunas, Jordan HIllm
July 1st, 2011
6:43 am
I’ve searched the archives and I’ve replicated a model of how to reach 50 wins without a superstar.
It is basically predicated on everyone playing within 1 to 2% better than anybody else.
- I’m assuming Teague plays at as high a level as he did in the playoffs.
- I’m assuming Hinrich can play as well as he did against Jameer and dominate backups.
-I’m docking injury prone Marvin to 12 minutes per game
- I’m signing Malcolm Thomas to go with Smith as the Power 3 unit to frustrate Lebrons and hopefully the Marions.
- I’m adding Zaza, Jordan Hill, Thabeet and Motiejunas to the big man core
past career highs: Al 10 wins, Odom 10 wins
Marvin 6 wins, Hinrich 10 wins – pre-injury Joe 6 wins Josh 9 wins
- Josh Smith is told to lose the weight. The only one I’m concerned about is JOe. Both he and Jamal played below average.
Because of $ we must rely on Joe not to be a superstar and bail out everyone but as a Team the right plays.
If everyone plays at 13% we’re a 50 win team. However if someone ie Teague or Motiejunas goes out we have a sub ready to rumbe
we win much more without Al trying to learn how to score in the post.
Dark Karma
July 1st, 2011
6:58 am
Trading Al for Motiejunas Hill and Thabeet {Sign Malcolm THomas and move him and Marvin to the bench}
Recommend that blog monster be allowed to eat all of this person’s posts.
Dark Karma
July 1st, 2011
7:03 am
How a person can get excited about D Leaguer Joe Alexander and hate on Al Horford in the same breath is beyond me. At least pick somebody who plays for an NBA team. Credibility shot. Thabeet is an Ethiopian with a thyroid problem, that is all. Cannot play basketball, and never could. Sucked in college even.
JoJo the Godfather
July 1st, 2011
7:03 am
Al is our 3rd best player. Nothing wrong with that. He’s paid as such. And as far as the playoffs, lets give him some credit on the defensive end. Bass, Anderson, and Noah all held below their season averages. And Kurt Thomas last year avgd a whopping 5 & 8 against us in that series. I think most here want Al to carry us on the offensive end, and that’s just not his game.
Compare him to:
Bosh, 18 & 8, with 1:1 assist to turnover ratio, been in the league twice as long, and makes more $.
Bynum, 12 & 9, with 1:1 assist to turnover ratio, been in the league 2 more years, and makes more $.
Boozer, 17 & 9, with 1:1 assist to turnover ratio, been in the league more than twice as long, and makes more $.
These are some of the other “2nd or 3rd option” big men on contending teams. For his age & salary, Al gives us equal or more value.
JoJo the Godfather
July 1st, 2011
7:07 am
VaVa said “Give Al more FGA and his % will plummet”.
Al’s FGA’s have gone up every year in the league. So has his FG%.
You’ll have to explain your reasoning behind your statement.
vava74
July 1st, 2011
7:24 am
JoJo,
Horford almost only takes quality shots (open looks, feet set) and in the playoffs, those shots are simply not there.
He has reached the maximum # of FGA which he can get out of the # of possessions he is involved with.
Also, last year, most teams were caught by surprise and their scouting was not up to date with his jumper accuracy (and still, better teams kept his FG% much lower which means that he amassed great FG% numbers against lesser opposition*).
This year, the opposition will be better prepared and will plant a guy on his face every time he is at the elbow or at the baseline and… expect .460/.480 FG%
* obviously this happens to all players, but I predict a marked difference for Al.
O'Brien
July 1st, 2011
8:17 am
Ramon,
Phoenix is already stuck with Childress, so I think they will pass on Marvin. Would you trade Marvin (3 years, $23 mil on his deal) for Childress (4 years, $27 mil) and a pick?
Why would Phoenix do it? Chills is coming off a horrible year, and with Grant Hill there, he didn’t get much PT. Marvin played ok coming off the bench, and he only has 3 years left on his deal, while Childress has 4.
Why would Hawks do it? I think both Marvin and the Hawks need a fresh start. And although Childress is coming off a horrible year, he is a better fit for the motion offense (cuts, backdoors etc), he is a better ball handler than Marvin, and he had more impact/hustle plays (based on his Hawk tenure of course).
We don’t know if Childress can return to being the Childress who played for the Hawks, but if Phoenix throws in a future first round pick, would you make that trade?
O'Brien
July 1st, 2011
8:23 am
Ken S, Ramon,
I would rather keep Horford and Al and sign Dalembert. But given the Hawks financial situation, we can’t afford to sign Dalembert outright, so our best chance is a trade. However, Josh and Al are our 2 best trade assets.
Vava,
If Teague starts (and plays well), I don’t think Al’s FG% would plummet. Teague is a penetrating guard (Bibby was not), so the defense would collapse at times, and he would have opportunities to kick to an open Al.
Also, in the playoffs, some of those shots were there for Al, but he was scared, and passed them up. I think he will work on his game and his mindset, and be more aggressive in taking those shots when they are there. And if he is aggressive and confident, he will make his fair share.
Ramon
July 1st, 2011
8:25 am
O’B, I wouldn’t do that deal simply because Chills is owed more years, and he’s older than Marvin. Phoenix would trade for Marvin because they are losing Carter and Hill. To go along with Pietrus being close to the end of his deal. I actually believe Marvin could thrive playing with someone like Nash in PHX.
Ramon
July 1st, 2011
8:42 am
O’B I do believe Al at the PF position will cause his % to plummet a good deal (5-7%).
JoJo the Godfather
July 1st, 2011
8:43 am
vava74,
There is not a stat, or group of stats, or any one man’s opinion in the world that will convince me that Al Horford’s FG% for the entire season will drop nearly 10% pts in one year.
As far as this player that is supposed to just “plant” himself in front of Al “every time”, is he not going to leave Al to help out when Teague blows by his man? What about when Joe receives the ball in the post, will the double team have to come from somewhere else? On the pick & roll, does he just let Teague go and stay with Al?
Also, what if Al is succesful in adding a second go-to post move (what he recently told MC he was working on)?
This young man will continue to get better. He’ll never be a superstar. Heck, he may never even be an allstar again. But he will be a solid player for a very long time. The Hawks are lucky to have him…and Josh. They need better coaching and some help down low. If Al starts playing soft (yank him out of the game). If Josh starts jacking up jumpers (yank him out of the game). If Joe starts “cadilac-ing” and not giving effort on defense or helping out on the boards (yank him out of the game).
vava74
July 1st, 2011
8:50 am
OB,
“Also, in the playoffs, some of those shots were there for Al, but he was scared, and passed them up. I think he will work on his game and his mindset, and be more aggressive in taking those shots when they are there. And if he is aggressive and confident, he will make his fair share.”
That’s exactly the issue, even with Teague carving CHI’s D, Al was passive and scared.
He has to change his mind set, including changing his mind PRONTO on playing C instead of playing PF.
Scared/soft guys rarely change their ways and his initial years with us may have been the remnants of the discipline and hustle play Donovan demanded from his Gators and the hustle that Noah brings every single night.
In spite of my coining of Al as “Diaper Al” I am first in line hoping that he reverts back to Boss Al (first two seasons), the guy that roamed the paint and hustled for every possession and LIKED getting his points out of put backs.
However, I simply don’t have too much faith on that materializing after he said that he was intendind to expand his range rather than improving his post moves.
People draw absurd comparisons with Dirk saying that a face up PF can be productive, but Dirk has always had an array of trick shots (pump faking, fading, turning around, using both hands) that is well beyond Al’s most fertile imagination of what he can become.
Al should realized that his game should be all about hustle down low, using his quickness, leaving his outside shot as a weapon to draw opposing Cs (most of the much slower) to open his drives.