Atlanta Hawks: ‘Detroit model’ still a lemon
So if you are trying to be a championship contender, would you rather be GM of the Knicks or the Hawks right about now?
In Atlanta, you have a roster that’s been built on the Detroit model, which is historically flawed because a superstar player has almost always been necessary to win a title. But you do have two All-Stars, an All-Star (if enigmatic) talent, a promising young point guard and a solid veteran point guard.
In New York, you have the opposite problem. The Knicks have two superstar talents and not enough around them. Howard Beck of the New York Times breaks down the dilemma face by the Knicks:
As [Donnie] Walsh noted last week in announcing his decision to step down, “we have the stars” required to be respectable. “They will do what they do, and we’re lucky to have them,” he said. But, he noted, “You need more than that” to contend for championships.
The proof is in the playoffs, where each conference finalist had invaluable supporting players: Joakim Noah and Luol Deng in Chicago, Serge Ibaka and Thabo Sefolosha in Oklahoma City, Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion in Dallas, Udonis Haslem and Mike Miller in Miami.
They are not stars, but they are indispensable in a title chase — the players who “fill in the blanks,” as Walsh said — setting hard screens, pouncing on loose balls, hitting timely jumpers, guarding top scorers, challenging shots in the paint. The great teams have such players in abundance. The Knicks have a dearth of them.
Chicago, Oklahoma City, Dallas and Miami also had at least one player named second-team All-NBA or better, like all but five champions and 10 runners-up in the league’s history. Rick Sund suggested the only way to get those kind of players is by picking No. 1 or No. 2 in the draft or spending free agent cash.
I don’t have to remind my blog people of the many ways the Hawks have messed up selecting a future superstar in the draft before Sund got here. Nor do you need to be told that Sund just gave away a pick to Washington because of his mistake in signing Bibby to that deal. And you already know the No. 1 reason the Hawks don’t have the ability to sign a superstar is because Sund gave J.J. the richest contract in the league but didn’t get anywhere close to superstar-level or even usual J.J.-like production. (The deals for Bibby and Marvin didn’t help, either.)
There’s another way in addition trades and free agency, of course. Top 10 players can be acquired in trades, which isn’t easy to do but is not without precedent. Looking back since 1980, there are a handful of such players who joined new teams through trades and helped them win titles: Kareem, Dr. J (who was actually “sold” to the 76ers by the Nets), Tiny Archibald, Moses Malone, Pippen (after the Sonics drafted him No. 5 overall), Barkley (after he became disgruntled in Philly), Penny (after the Warriors drafted him No. 3 overall), Mutombo (sorry to bring it up), J. Kidd, and Kobe (after the Hornets drafted him No. 13 overall).
So if you doubt the Detroit model is a winner, and you are convinced the Hawks need to get a superstar to be real contenders, then hope Sund can somehow get one through a trade. Sund apparently considers the trades for Jamal and Hinrich to be major deals but neither required the Hawks to give up a major piece.
Getting a superstar would require that kind of bold move, which is tricky since Atlanta lacks coveted assets like draft picks and cheap/productive/promising players. Making such a move while also keeping enough help around for the acquired superstar makes it trickier still, as the Knicks are finding out.
Sund has been involved in some major swaps. In 2000 with Detroit, he traded away Grant Hill in his prime to Orlando for Ben Wallace. Eventually Wallace became the kind of elite defender who made the Detroit model work, to the point that he was voted second-team NBA in 2006. And while with Seattle in 2003, Sund traded away Gary Payton, who was just starting his decline from All-NBA, and got Ray Allen, who would make second-team All-NBA in 2005.
Speaking of trades . . . .
Rusty Simmons of the San Francisco Chronicle reports: “League sources said the Warriors also have discussed [Monta] Ellis, among a variety of other players, in trade talks with Atlanta, Chicago, Memphis, Orlando and the Lakers.”
It’s always hard to know exactly what to make of “trade talks.” But I can’t think of a reason why the Hawks would be interested in Ellis, who has $33 million and three years left on a deal that includes a player option.
Simmons says the Warriors are looking for defensive help and want a big guard, a swingman and a post presence (and who doesn’t want one of those?). For what it’s worth, J.J. is a big guard who also can be a swingman, and Josh is a good defender who can play the 3, but look at the Golden State roster and tell me if there’s anyone the Hawks need/want?
Notes
- Marvin had outpatient surgery today to alleviate what the team says is an “isolated bulging disk” in his lower back. The Hawks said Marvin is set to begin rehab immediately and is expected to return to full basketball activities in six to weight weeks.
- The Arkansas Times talked to J.J., who says he might consider playing in Europe if there’s a lockout but added:” [I]f you go over there and get hurt, your contract is void.” That’s a lob for my blog people.
- The Hawks are in draft mode. They will start holding workouts for prospects next week but, unfortunately, there will be no media access. A list of prospects hopefully will be forthcoming.
- Teague has two basketball camps next week: June 13-15 at Salem High in Conyers and June 16-18 at Wheeler High in Marietta. Registration info is here.
- Al also has two camps: June 25-26 at Emory and June 28-29 in Lansing, Mich. Registration info is here.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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488 comments Add your comment
tb-in-atl
June 11th, 2011
4:49 pm
Northcyle please lease==Josh Smith for a true center is the 1st thing we should do and Andrew Bynum is the best young center period .. I would love to get Ellis but a center always trumps a guard period and JJ did win us some games but hes a no show in alot of others ;; and crawford won those so send JJ packing like i wrote earlier the trade to Cleveland is the best one,, and re-sign Crawford heres my line-up after the trade=== C=Andrew Bynum 15 points 11 rebounds 2 blocks is a true inside force ;; PF Al Horford 18 points 8 Re 2 Bl;; thats 33 points and 19 rebounds a night then Rookie SF= Derrick Williams 14 points 8 rebounds 2 bl at least thats 47 points around the paint and 29 rebounds thats a good front court period then you throw in C/PF Anderson Varejao for 10 and 10 that trumps guard play like at Memphis then SG= Crawford 18 points and rookie guard either Ivring or Knight 12 points 5 ass. then PG= teague and Hinrick together 18points a night and 10 ass lets see thats 105 a night points scored and with a good Def front court team I like my chances better with a great front court much better with no show 50% of the time JJ depending on his Jump shot no thank you, TB-in-ATL
DC
June 11th, 2011
5:00 pm
If this Ellis thing doesn’t pan out maybe we should trade up in the draft get Charles Jenkins out of Hofstra. I heard he was a dynamite scorer.
I think we also really need to adress our gaping hole at the small forward and center positions. We should go really hard after Nene in the free agency, and trade Joe, his huge contract, and Marvin for a high 1st round pick and a quality player, or trade them for just Ellis and Wright.
brigadierjerry
June 11th, 2011
5:45 pm
One thing I will say for anyone that basically wants to blow up this team and start from scratch:
Timberwolves First Round Picks:
2010- #4, #16, #23
2009 – #5, #6, #18, #28
2008 – #3
2007 – #7
2006 – #6
2005 – #14
And where are they now to show for it? 17-65, with a grand total of one worthwhile player on their entire roster (2 if you count Rubio) and headed right back to the lottery again whenever basketball resumes next season.
The lesson is to get good players who are good guys and to win. Good players have value, winning increases the value of your players, and you can keep them or trade them. Losing, getting losers on the team, and especially tanking is how you end up with a bunch of losers and before you know it, you’re the Timberwolves, or how the Knicks and Celtics were for years.
Losing decreases the value of every single asset you have, because it reflects poorly on your players, your coach, and your organization. No one wants anything to do with a loser. The Celtics experienced this for years, unable to get buyout guys, unable to get Malone, etc. Wasn’t until they were winning that they got guys like PJ, Posey, House, Cassell, Sheed, and Shaq.
In the NBA especially you are either good or bad. In-between is the worse position to be because it is hard to try and rebuild. The Hawks are a good team not a great one but with moves if management is willing to do, The Hawks can become a possible top three team and there is no reason they can have a history of being a perennial playoff contender team for many years such as what the Mavericks have been
ArtMan
June 11th, 2011
6:31 pm
Traded = Josh Smith for C= Andrew Bynum LA wants to move him plus they will get a new Center…
The Lakers are not looking to trade Andrew Bynum.
This is another worthless trade suggestion based on a false assumption. At least try to make it believable if you propose trades.
O'Brien
June 11th, 2011
7:02 pm
northcyde,
Good post. Most bloggers are not thinking about the culture on this team. They are just thinking about talent. As constructed, we have seen these players suffer 30 point blowout losses at home, which is unacceptable for a top 5 team.
No one player is to blame, but as good as these players were talent-wise, there are issues team wise (and coach-wise). And trading one of the captains would help with a change in culture. Even if its a small change, it’s still a change. And hopefully Kirk being here for the preseason and one full season will be another small change in culture.
Showtime Frontcourt: Smith, Motiejunas, Hill, Hasheem, Pachulia
June 11th, 2011
7:19 pm
“Traded = Josh Smith for C= Andrew Bynum”
lmao center’s are at a premium. The only way I see to increase all our toxic assets is if Hawks play Joe at the 1 with Marvin and Josh at the 3, 2.
This commitment to running and getting to the free throw line and posting up the 1 and 2s leaves Teague and Hinrich benched
but that’s ASG’s fault. We’re screwed and shouldve tried this against the Bulls
.Marvin scores 31 points on 14 shots as a near 250 lb 2 guard now all we need is a center to lift us to the elite
so what do we do? $120 million to Joe. Marvin is sadly a better slasher and set shooter than Joe.
Marvin sucks at the 3 and we couldnt see past it and offered him $8 mil to play against 3s a position Josh played better at 235 lb.
Hawks f****ked themselves so many times over the past 3 years. its insane
Ra'mon
June 11th, 2011
7:40 pm
I don’t understand everyone’s fascination with Kirk and him being such a great leader. None of his teams have made it past the second round before. And on both of his previous teams, he displayed unhappiness of being unseated by better players. This is not a guy who is a perennial winner or anything close to it. You look at Jason Kidd, and while he isn’t a champion yet, he still had already played in 2 Finals in his career. The Hawks need someone leading who has at least been to the level they are trying to go.
As a player, Kirk is serviceable at best. He had some good games on defense, and he’s also had some terrible games on defense. Is he better than Bibby? Who isn’t? But is he that point guard to LEAD this team to higher levels? I seriously doubt it. I would take Andre Miller over Kirk any day.
As a leader, the question remains what has he lead? How many times have we seen Kirk take off his goggles and complain to the referees?
Also, I will admit, I’m not convinced with the right coach that Joe can’t be similar to Dirk in the near future. Truth be told, when Joe makes quick, decisive moves he’s unstoppable. The thing that hurts Joe the most is when he waits to make his moves. If Joe had a coach (similar to G. Karl and Melo) who MADE Joe make quick, decisive moves instead of playing true iso, then we would see his average shoot back up to 25 ppg. Before this season, Dirk was labeled the biggest underachiever in the league (even over Lebron because of age). Dirk was a number one seed and got sent home in the first round. Kevin Garnett was the same way in Minnesota.
With that being said, LD is not the RIGHT coach, nor that coach. LD doesn’t demand enough respect to get Joe to change his style and approach to every possession. I do think a coach like Fratello or Hubie Brown would stand up to Joe and Josh.
Joe and Josh need an experienced coach to mold their games and direct them. Because even Joe was relatively young when he came here and never groomed as a leader by an experienced coach. They both can become superstars when coached by someone who will stand up to them and demand things.
On the other hand, I don’t think Al will be any better than he is now in his career. Al seems set on being something that makes him least effective. And truthfully, he’s the best trade asset the Hawks have to get that truly defensive stopper at Center and small forward. Horford could get you a starting center and small forward who are good, just effective on defense.
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
7:46 pm
Allstar- Tito Jr for the Super Star Derrick Williams!
I agree, Phoenix got robbed by the Chief Gangster and godfather. 06 was their year to win it all..They were on a roll!! The fix was in……
“slimjr. I agree they should’ve went to the finals but how exactly was the fix in if Amarea and Diaw came off the bench?”
They took one lousy step and were immediately stopped in their tracks by coaching staff does not constitute being suspended! Outrageous he is, Chief Gangster himself….Phoenix hands down was going home with the Hardware that year!!!!! godfather, is terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Showtime Frontcourt: Smith, Motiejunas, Hill, Hasheem, Pachulia
June 11th, 2011
7:54 pm
Joe will never be Dirk Nowitzki or Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett try again.
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
7:57 pm
Derrick Williams is a #3,SF that will fill the seats! He is gifted in many ways like Joe! But is bigger, stronger, faster and plays above the rim. Will posterize anybody! Absolutely beautiful jumpshot with 3 pt range!.Can also shoot the mid-range jumpshot; on the move!!! Very quick first step with crossover capability for handles.. Dare I say The “Human High-lite Film remix!”
Oh did i mention he can post up with confidence???? Say WHAT??????? Bring him into camp and he will dismantle the 3 stooges………………….
Scottie make it so! Aye Captain……………..
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
7:59 pm
Kirk=Tyrone Lue..Stays hurt often……..sigh…………………………Yawn……………………..
brigadierjerry
June 11th, 2011
8:22 pm
They took one lousy step and were immediately stopped in their tracks by coaching staff does not constitute being suspended! Outrageous he is, Chief Gangster himself….Phoenix hands down was going home with the Hardware that year!!!!! godfather, is terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The rule is if you get off the bench during something like that you get suspended. Remember the Heat/Knicks brawl?Ewing hardly got off the bench same way and he got suspended but it was Phoenix fault for not getting to the Finals all those years.
You think Derrick Williams will be as good as Nique or Joe Johnson?I think he will be a good player but you think he is going to be a better player than say Jeff Green or Lou Deng?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
8:50 pm
@brigadierjerry u make some excellent posts Dude!!!!! And great points about the rule and Knick brawl. Yeah I remember watching the Knick coach at the time Jeff VanGundy attach himself to one of Alonzo Morning’s leg to try and slow him down from going after Oakley like he ever needed help defending himself; but back to Jeff, he looked like a kid on a human swing!!!!!! LOL…..HeHeHe…..
Yea I believe this dude is the real deal. Derrick Williams is special..He’s got the it factor!!! Watch him on film and you will see what I mean…NBA rookie of the year is a lock for him..Offensively he is complete!! The whole package.. Would destroy Marvin one on one in 4 mins or less…He is better than Deng and Jeff already ….What??? Yep….wont take him long to catch Joe!! Iso needs help at the critical #3 to take the scoring load off him..The 3 stooges have maxed out…Thats all they got and it aint enough for a 1st time ECF visit in 4.5 decades. I wont even mention NBA Final..OOPS I already did..LOL
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
9:08 pm
I commend LD for his efforts, but he didn’t get anyone to play to their strengths. Joe, Marvin, Josh, Al, Kirk all do best when they know when and where the ball is coming from and then go quickly or shoot immediately b/c they anticipated the pass. This motion crap leaves too much indecision and thus bad possessions.
I think Horford can improve. I think he relaxed a bit when he got the contract. Stars usually take a dip the first year after signing. I look for Joe and Al to improve next year.
The real question is can Teague maintain his confidence and can Marvin do the same as he strives to become Jamal’s role.
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
9:09 pm
If Derrick Williams is so great, why would any team take our expensive crap for such an inexpensive sure thing?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
9:09 pm
Derrick has better handles than Nique but Derrick cant jump 47″ off the floor like Nique in his prime..But I believe Derricks vertical is more than 36″, I am guessing? Also Derrick has a superior Jumpshot than Nique as a rookie. Nique could not shoot from 3 point land early in his NBA career but he certainly tried like J not so smoove does all the time…..Nique worked at it and it got real good!!
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
9:17 pm
Still didn’t answer the question Slim? Why would they trade their pick for what we could offer for the next great thing?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
9:19 pm
Allstar-Tito Jr= a #4 in the EURO League…………………………Yawn……………
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
9:20 pm
Still no answer, why would they give us Williams for Tito Jr?
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
9:22 pm
Crap’s about as usefull as all the trade fodder that’ll never come to fruition. We’re getting Monta, Dwight, Steph Curry, Williams, ect.
We’re getting 4-5 vet mins…maybe 2-3 new ones, that’s all.
We’re going “organic” like the rest of the state. Haven’t you figured that out by now.
Ramon
June 11th, 2011
9:24 pm
I could see them thinking a front line of Love and Horford would be great.
ArtMan
June 11th, 2011
9:25 pm
The success and failures of a pro franshise always begins and ends with the ownership. If we had good ownership, is there anyone on this blog that believes that Sund and Drew would still be GM and coach? The owners are content with mediocrity.
Sund has been and is a mediocre GM. Do you think Arthur Blank would settle for Sund and Drew? Do you think Mark Cuban would settle for them?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
9:29 pm
Cause we could sell them on the fact Al is only 25 and was voted ALL NBA BY some delusional coaches?? LOL
We could sweeten the pot a little with next years 1st rd pick or something along those lines?
.Drafting lottery picks is like rolling dice, you win some and you lose some..Minn like the Hawks have had tough time drafting in the lottery..Maybe they’ll be gun shy about possibly screwin up another one??
Note: Hawks seem to be on the losing side drafting in the lottery but ya got to keep trying to get it right?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
9:41 pm
“We’re getting 4-5 vet mins…maybe 2-3 new ones, that’s all.
We’re going “organic” like the rest of the state. Haven’t you figured that out by now.”
Your right! Ken said the same thing yesterday..I am a dreamer..Being a Hawks fan, thats about all you can do….. sigh….
43 wins……..Yawn……
hawksfancents95
June 11th, 2011
9:48 pm
how gross would minnesotas frontcourt be if cleveland takes irving or kanter #1? sf-derrick williams pf-B-easy C klove. id start all three of them.
Does anyone know when the 2011-2012 salaries take effect? is it after the finals are over? or when the draft starts? or some date during the off-season
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
9:54 pm
LeBron can’t handle it, but who could?
Jason Whitlock, FOX Sports
1 day ago
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DALLAS — The crown is too heavy now.
It crushed Tiger Woods. Serena Williams rejected it. Peyton Manning only wears it when it suits his needs. Alex Rodriquez had it stripped from his head by performance-enhancing drugs. A rape allegation dethroned Kobe Bryant.
Michael Jordan is our last global sports icon, and even he couldn’t bear the weight of the crown in this era. Neither could Muhammad Ali, Mickey Mantle, Babe Ruth or Joe Montana.
LeBron James had no idea what he was signing up for when he accepted the nickname “King James,” tatted “Chosen One” across his back and teamed with Nike in pursuit of global-icon status.
There was no Facebook or Twitter when this all began. James had probably never heard of Skip Bayless or Stephen A. Smith. Cellphones didn’t double as cameras and devices to watch, send and receive porn. Hardcore sports fans weren’t in their parents’ basements dreaming of inventing Deadspin.
You want to understand LeBron James and why he is struggling in this moment, in these NBA Finals, despite Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh helping him with his crown? You must first understand the time we live in.
The crown is too heavy now.
It’s weighed down by the infinite voices with access to an athlete’s mind. It’s weighed down by our outdated insistence on viewing athletes as role models while scrutinizing their personal lives the way we would a politician. It’s weighed down by technology, the 24-hour news cycle, reality TV and the sports world’s embrace of celebrity culture.
The mountain LeBron James is trying to scale is much higher than the one Jordan, Ali and Ruth climbed.
Is James shrinking? No. He’s getting crushed.
In the self-described biggest game of his life — Game 5 of the NBA Finals — James recorded a harmless triple-double and a harmful, 2-point fourth quarter on a night when, because of Wade’s hip injury, the Heat needed James to perform Magic.
I’m talking Magic Johnson, the 1980 rookie who opened for Kareem at center and dropped 42, 15 and seven on the Sixers in Game 6.
In Dallas’ 112-103 victory Thursday night, James finished with 17, 10 and 10. Good numbers. Not enough. And not what Miami needed with Wade spending considerable stretches trapped in the training room receiving treatment on a hip contusion.
Of James’ 10 rebounds, only one was offensive. He missed all four of his three-point shots. He made a single trip to the free-throw line. He turned the ball over a game-high four times. On the offensive end, he left the low block in the fourth. At the defensive end, Jason Terry torched James.
James said he’s not bothered by the pressure of the Finals, of the fourth quarter. He’s in denial.
“We as a team, we played good enough to win again,” he said. “Put ourselves in position to win down the stretch. Everyone, guys made plays. They just made a few more than we did. That’s what it came down to.”
The final score says the Heat did not play good enough to win. Dallas closed the game on a 15-2 run. Miami’s penchant for late-game collapses and James’ penchant for fourth-quarter offensive disappearance in this series indicates there’s a problem.
“I don’t think it was a case of offense again tonight,” James said. “There was enough offensive play. We shot 52 percent. They shot 56 percent. We scored 103 points. They scored 113. The offense wasn’t a problem.”
It’s true: Defense wins championships. This is also true: Sometimes your best defense is a good offense.
In a single-platoon sport like basketball, when you’re blessed with unprecedented talent, you can beat up and demoralize an opponent so badly on the offensive end that you destroy his confidence on both ends of the court.
Dropping 40 on someone is intimidating and distracting.
Chris Bosh is a different player in this series compared to the Chicago series because Dirk Nowitzki is inside his head. Bosh has yet to clear his brain of Dirk’s left-handed game-winner in Game 2. It’s scary playing against someone better than you.
Jason Kidd, Jason Terry and Shawn Marion are not afraid of LeBron. They don’t respect his moves on the block. They’re thrilled James is shying away from driving the ball and challenging Tyson Chandler at the rim.
James is lost.
The Decision and this marvelous NBA season vaulted him to global-icon status. Thanks to America’s fascination with James, the anticipation for Game 5 felt like an NFL playoff game. King James is must-see TV.
We shouldn’t be surprised he’s having trouble handling the moment. There was no Skip Bayless sitting on TV dissecting Jordan daily. There was no Stephen A. Smith going on national radio insinuating problems in Jordan’s personal life. Jordan never tweeted or gave millions of detractors easy access to rip him.
Jordan was prepared to wear the crown by two parents and Dean Smith.
It’s a different era now. The crown is too heavy and many of the kids haven’t been given instructions on how to wear it.”
Interesting Take!
Miami in 7….
hawksfancents95
June 11th, 2011
10:07 pm
oh ya, im sure everyone has a thought on the original A.I trying a comeback? since no one was interested in him last year maybe he has humbled himself and would be alright taking a role as a backup player? I would let A.I tryout for the hawks, hes 36 bout to be 37. maybe he has 1 or two years left. sign him for vet min if he does well during tryouts and still seems like he can do something in the league. let him come off the bench for joe or whoever is our 2. that is if he can handle being a role-player and a team player. im sure ASG would like to sign a big name player for vet min that could bring in a lot of revenue just cuz of the name. pay 1.4 mill get prob 10+ mill in return and maybe get a few more televised games(mainly against Philly)
*thoughts?*
Fundamentals
June 11th, 2011
10:29 pm
Has AI grown up from his days of not thinking practice or the regular season games were worth playing. He’d reinforce the cancer that’s destroying this team. Lack of character, lack of professionalism.
AI = no thanks.
What’s up with the Bonzi Wells and Crittenton chatter in NY’s camp?
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
10:35 pm
Labron has a huge weakness in his game and Dallas has figured it out? You want to know what it is?
Stay tuned. I am watchin a movie at the moment…LOL…
Showtime Frontcourt: Smith, Motiejunas, Hill, Hasheem, Pachulia
June 11th, 2011
10:48 pm
“sf-derrick williams pf-B-easy C klove.”
Firstly Love hates the center position. Compromises size/defense.
2ndly, you cant start “B-easy” next to Williams. B-Easy is 6′8 and most small forwards would guard him and the power forward would harass Williams with their length.
Not that it’d matter if he’s truely skilled he can play around it. But B-Easy is an inefficient stretch 4 at best and a defensive and rebounding liability at his worst.
I think 3s would rather guard Smith in the post and force Williams to the perimeter as well. Teams have size for a reason guys. Its to force favorable matchups.
For example Lebron played with guys who were big to force matchups like the late Tractor Taylor just because they were big enough to draw the correct matchup attention.
Showtime Frontcourt: Smith, Motiejunas, Hill, Hasheem, Pachulia
June 11th, 2011
10:54 pm
@Slimjr
Both Durant and James are unnatural post scorers, James to heavy and uncoordinated in the post and Durant to skinny and easily forced off the block.
Both Jason Kidd and Marion have used leverage to disrupt them.
That’s why I’ve said the Jordan comparisons were always offbase. First and foremost you need to be an inside out player.
Its amazing those 2 “small forwards” have been able to find so much success without a post game, everything off the dribble like 6′10 and 6′8 Kobe Bryants!
Dr. J would not stand for this!
….
“Labron has a huge weakness in his game and Dallas has figured it out? You want to know what it is?”
tb-in-atl
June 11th, 2011
11:09 pm
Lesson, Traded Josh Smith , Marvin Williams, and Joe Johnson this is there highest rating ever then take center Andrew Bynum , for J. Smith LA wants to move Bynum make the deal !! Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams to Cleveland for there 2= 1st round picks and C= anderson Varejao, SF=Samardo Samuels and in the draft take SF= (Derrick Williams) period hes josh smith but shoots better and has a more complete game , then take PG/SG= ( Iving or Knight) having C=Bynum, PF= Horford, SF= Derrick Williams, SG= Crawford ,PG=Teague as your starters and Varejao,( Iving or Knight) one may beat out Teague, Hinrick, Samuels, Collins as your back-ups;; this is a great young team your strength is inside for once not Depending on jumpers from JJ to win the game !!
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
11:24 pm
“Its amazing those 2 “small forwards” have been able to find so much success without a post game, everything off the dribble like 6′10 and 6′8 Kobe Bryants!”
Man you Guys are brilliant on this blog.. If you guys were running the Hawks we’d have about 6 championships by now!!!
Right no inside post game just like AllStar-Tito Jr…But Labron can be fixed Al?
Some guys just dont like to post up so what you do is teach them to penetrate to within say 21-16 ft area and pull up.That mid range jumpshot is very hard to guard..Labron does not even have a mid range jumpshot and its causing him to be ineffective again in crunch time…His 24 footers are not dropping and the rotating defense are working as planned as he drives the lane into a wall of King Eating Flesh..HEY TITO Jr are you watching????
Slimjr
June 11th, 2011
11:37 pm
“tb-in-atl
June 11th, 2011
11:09 pm
Lesson, Traded Josh Smith , Marvin Williams, and Joe Johnson this is there highest rating ever then take center Andrew Bynum , for J. Smith LA wants to move Bynum make the deal !! Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams to Cleveland for there 2= 1st round picks and C= anderson Varejao, SF=Samardo Samuels and in the draft take SF= (Derrick Williams) period hes josh smith but shoots better and has a more complete game , then take PG/SG= ( Iving or Knight) having C=Bynum, PF= Horford, SF= Derrick Williams, SG= Crawford ,PG=Teague as your starters and Varejao,( Iving or Knight) one may beat out Teague, Hinrick, Samuels, Collins as your back-ups;; this is a great young team your strength is inside for once not Depending on jumpers from JJ to win the game !!”
Scottie make it so!! Aye captain….
Najeh Davenpoop
June 11th, 2011
11:42 pm
yawn
O'Brien
June 11th, 2011
11:52 pm
Ra’mon,
Its not that Kirk is a great leader. But he has not played for Woody and LD, and he has not been playing with JJ and Josh for years.
Therefore, his mindset will be a little different, and he has not been programmed to defer to JJ all the time. And LD is not uncle Larry to him.
So more than anything, we are hoping that as the PG, he will be able to make a difference in his play and his leadership (and on this team, replacing Bibby, he should be an upgrade in both categories).
But that is also one reason why Rick needs to shake up the roster and trade one of the core (imo). We need change, and Kirk wont be enough.
Grandad
June 12th, 2011
12:57 am
DC
Good call on Charles Jenkins.
He’s all over the board, late 1st, early to mid 2nd,
to not even drafted (nbadraft.net).
He may be on their board now, but at one time
[recently] he was not.
He is a sleeper / who will have a nice career / opinion obviously.
KevinM
June 12th, 2011
12:59 am
Kirk will be in the starting lineup no matter what Teague does this summer. Drew has him in emergency situational mode only. Sad really that the fan base has to tell the head coach of the talent rotting on the bench. And our bench doesn’t have a lot of talent to waste rotting.
I will believe Teague has a place here only when I see it. The head coach is beyond common sense int his situation.
Now, to stay quiet this offseason without any veteran addition would seem like suicide, but I would not be surprised to see Sund depend on pick 48 for our bench scoring needs. He simply will say there wasn’t a deal out there that we felt made us better. What he will mean is no one on this roster is valued as high as I value them….and that includes Marvin!
2011-12 roster – Joe / Josh / Al / Kirk / Zaza / Collins / Marvin / Teague / Sy / Wilkens / pick 48 / Armstrong & player 13 is a player no one else wanted on their roster…typical Sund maneuver.
KevinM
June 12th, 2011
1:09 am
Sund probably ends up bringing in Twin’s twin last seen in Portland….make sure he gets that 6th big man in here so we have 36 fouls to work with.
Anybody else miss the optimism of Bob Rathburn? He and Dominique could sell you on the Clippers heading to the ECF next year! Almost as strong as John Sterling and the ‘nitty-gritty Hawks’ of years gone by.
Ken Strickland
June 12th, 2011
1:17 am
SLIMJR-You’re so busy promoting your own BS agenda, and putting down every Hawk player you can to promote that agenda, especially AHorford, you can’t recognize your own BS. Here’s what I mean. You constantly glorify Derrick Williams, a college player you’re facinated with and obsess over that hasn’t proven a doggone thing at the next level.
Then you make these silly comments and assessments of what you perceive as AHorford’s shortcomings. The following is a comparison between AHorford and the negatives you attribute to him, and gathered from a scouting report by David Locke on your beloved Derrick Williams.
AHORFORD-You claim he’s soft and plays too much on the outside.
DWILLIAMS-”He is a power forward whose ability to play on the outside is going to be an asset to his OFF game.”
AHORFORD-You claim he’s undersized and isn’t aggressive enough.
DWILLIAMS-”Two enormous concerns in his gm, he is undersized and I am not convinced he plays very hard.”
AHORFORD-He’s not a shotblocker and isn’t good with help DEF.
DWILLIAMS-”Defensively he is a great robounder but a poor help defender. Often doesn’t leave his man in order to stay in rebounding position.”
These are samples of the BS you espouse when it comes to your assessment of AHorford compared to the glorification of your beloved Derrick Williams. You have no problem whatsoever in criticizing a 2 time NBA All Star and 3rd team NBA player. Yet, you glorify a college player who shares many of the same negatives you attribute to Horford.
DWilliams seems to shares MWilliams and JJohnson’s problem of being a vertical jumper. His scouting report says, “AS GOOD AN ATHLETE AS HE SEEMS TO BE HE IS A TWO FOOT JUMPER WHICH HURTS HIS ATHLETICISM. WHEN HE GOES OFF ONE FOOT THERE IS NO EXPLOSION. THE NEED TO BRING THE SECOND FOOT IN OFTEN MEANS IT TAKES TOO LONG AT THE NBA LEVEL. NOT AN ALL OUT EFFORT PLAYER, HE RUNS THE FLOOR AT HALF SPEED WITH REGULARITY AND POORLY IN TRANSITION. RUNS THE FLOOR UPHILL ON THE DEFENSIVE END. THIS WILL HAVE TO CHANGE IN THE NBA.”
QUICK SYNOPSIS: “A SOLID NBA PLAYER WHO STARTS, BUT NOT A STAR IN THE NBA. HE WILL STRUGGLE AT TIMES BEING A POWER FORWARD.”
Are you telling me you’d actually be stupid enough to take this unproven player, and his numerous shortcomings, especially when it comes to DEF and effort, over hustling All Star and 3rd team All NBA AHorford? WHERE’S THE DAMNED LOGIC SLIMJR?
1-You claim he relies on shooting jumpshots rather than working inside.
DC
June 12th, 2011
1:31 am
Thanks Grandad, yeah I was reading about some of the pure scorers in the draft because I was trying to think of a cheap way for the Hawks to get some bench scoring to replace Jamal. There are guys like Brooks or Burks, and I love both of those guys, but they are low lottery to mid teen picks, so after that Jenkins seems to be deadly from what I’ve read on him. However, I think Joe and Marvin have to go. Joe because of his contract and we need to strike while people still want him, and Marvin, well because he’s Marvin. I’d really love the Ellis trade if Wright came with him because that gives us a true 3 to work with who can really spread the floor.
I think we HAVE to after Nene this summer. I’m surprised no one has said anything about him. He’s a blue collar center who is as tough as they come, a better Kendrick Perkins. He could be the missing link that could take us to the ECF or NBA Finals. I’m just rambling and ranting now so….
Kevin
June 12th, 2011
6:37 am
Why bother we skip coach of the foremer who is Lakers coach which will be in NBA finals now…..Us we have cry owners who go to 680 the Fan cry fake tears and Mayor will cry soon when Hawks Move to Buffalo n become the Buffalo Braves in 2013…unless Reed save hawks if he do we remind him where was thou when Thrasher were leavin he said eh we live with it….Hawks have no clue of GM n coach hire rag muffins and oh Jason Terry about ring a NBA title take that Joe Johnson n friends…Dallas Mavericks 2011 NBA champions….Labron James Crybaby champ for Miami heat for 2011….wear the Bib well sucker!
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
8:24 am
“Marvin’s game is terrible, and he is an injury waiting to happen. If I were the Hawks, I would try my best to trade or give him away for anything. He will end up being another Speedy Claxton. A 6′9 forward with back problems who has balance problems, and falls as much as he does is bad news. They need to up the insurance policy on him, because he won’t make it to the end of that contract. He will be walking like Fred Sanford in the next 2 years.”
O’Brien
June 8th, 2011
6:32 pm
Rod,
Marvin was drafted in 2005.
In 2006, he missed 18 games. In 2008, he missed 21 games (I think he had a back injury). But what does Rick Sund do?
Not only does he sign him to a 5 year deal, but he also did not let Marvin test the market, which led to him overpaying. All this despite Marvin missing over 20% of the season in 2 of his 4 seasons.
Way to go Rick Sund. Did you ever think Marvin might be injury prone? Oh by the way Marvin missed 17 games this year. And this is the guy who wants to make the moves necessary to emulate the Detroit model? I’m not holding my breath.
THE STREAK CONTINUES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YAWN………………………..44 yrs and counting
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
8:33 am
Hey Ken, chill out dude..Everyone has an opinion! You have yours, I have mine….Enough said!
Scroll button works wonders…………………………………………………………………………..
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
9:32 am
@Ken,
Coming on these blogs to personally attack the Bloggers does not elevate you above anybody, it has the reverse affect! Meditate on that one….
Again I suggest you use the scroll buttons.. They work wonders.. I am done….Scroll on…
Oh have a great day!
Buddy Grizzard
June 12th, 2011
9:49 am
“Does anyone know when the 2011-2012 salaries take effect?”
July 1st, the day the lockout starts. Sekou Smith told me it’s business as usual for the NBA until then. Expect to see a flurry of trades at the draft.
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
9:57 am
@Buddy,
Dont get your hopes up that Sund will be in the midst of those flurry of trades at the draft…He’s probably gone fishing…….LOL
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
10:15 am
“News Flash” Ding! Ding! Ding!
Nique was a two footed jumper and had a 47″ vertical!! Dugh?
A fantastic Athlete…..imho…..I dont care if he jumps off one or two legs the objective is to put the ball in the hole!
KevinM
June 12th, 2011
10:27 am
Slim, your Sund comment is the sad state of this organization. The fans do not see the effort needed to elevate this team from perennial 2nd round elimination.
For those anti-Marvin, I actually read where there were Boston supporters who would like to add him to their bench. I am still in shock! Other than bad feet, which Marvin hasn’t used yet, a back injury is the worse for a player.
Marvin will never be healthy enough to play a lead role. He doesn’t have it in him. Now that we’re 1/2 way through his second contract, his value has drastically dropped, like a Josh Howard. No one is taking on that contract Sund signed him to. Slide Marvin into the non-factor role while anyone takes his minutes, namely Josh. And we all know how bad Josh’s perimeter game is.
Slimjr
June 12th, 2011
10:34 am
@Kevin,
I feel like going fishing…LOL