Atlanta Hawks: ‘Detroit model’ still a lemon
So if you are trying to be a championship contender, would you rather be GM of the Knicks or the Hawks right about now?
In Atlanta, you have a roster that’s been built on the Detroit model, which is historically flawed because a superstar player has almost always been necessary to win a title. But you do have two All-Stars, an All-Star (if enigmatic) talent, a promising young point guard and a solid veteran point guard.
In New York, you have the opposite problem. The Knicks have two superstar talents and not enough around them. Howard Beck of the New York Times breaks down the dilemma face by the Knicks:
As [Donnie] Walsh noted last week in announcing his decision to step down, “we have the stars” required to be respectable. “They will do what they do, and we’re lucky to have them,” he said. But, he noted, “You need more than that” to contend for championships.
The proof is in the playoffs, where each conference finalist had invaluable supporting players: Joakim Noah and Luol Deng in Chicago, Serge Ibaka and Thabo Sefolosha in Oklahoma City, Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion in Dallas, Udonis Haslem and Mike Miller in Miami.
They are not stars, but they are indispensable in a title chase — the players who “fill in the blanks,” as Walsh said — setting hard screens, pouncing on loose balls, hitting timely jumpers, guarding top scorers, challenging shots in the paint. The great teams have such players in abundance. The Knicks have a dearth of them.
Chicago, Oklahoma City, Dallas and Miami also had at least one player named second-team All-NBA or better, like all but five champions and 10 runners-up in the league’s history. Rick Sund suggested the only way to get those kind of players is by picking No. 1 or No. 2 in the draft or spending free agent cash.
I don’t have to remind my blog people of the many ways the Hawks have messed up selecting a future superstar in the draft before Sund got here. Nor do you need to be told that Sund just gave away a pick to Washington because of his mistake in signing Bibby to that deal. And you already know the No. 1 reason the Hawks don’t have the ability to sign a superstar is because Sund gave J.J. the richest contract in the league but didn’t get anywhere close to superstar-level or even usual J.J.-like production. (The deals for Bibby and Marvin didn’t help, either.)
There’s another way in addition trades and free agency, of course. Top 10 players can be acquired in trades, which isn’t easy to do but is not without precedent. Looking back since 1980, there are a handful of such players who joined new teams through trades and helped them win titles: Kareem, Dr. J (who was actually “sold” to the 76ers by the Nets), Tiny Archibald, Moses Malone, Pippen (after the Sonics drafted him No. 5 overall), Barkley (after he became disgruntled in Philly), Penny (after the Warriors drafted him No. 3 overall), Mutombo (sorry to bring it up), J. Kidd, and Kobe (after the Hornets drafted him No. 13 overall).
So if you doubt the Detroit model is a winner, and you are convinced the Hawks need to get a superstar to be real contenders, then hope Sund can somehow get one through a trade. Sund apparently considers the trades for Jamal and Hinrich to be major deals but neither required the Hawks to give up a major piece.
Getting a superstar would require that kind of bold move, which is tricky since Atlanta lacks coveted assets like draft picks and cheap/productive/promising players. Making such a move while also keeping enough help around for the acquired superstar makes it trickier still, as the Knicks are finding out.
Sund has been involved in some major swaps. In 2000 with Detroit, he traded away Grant Hill in his prime to Orlando for Ben Wallace. Eventually Wallace became the kind of elite defender who made the Detroit model work, to the point that he was voted second-team NBA in 2006. And while with Seattle in 2003, Sund traded away Gary Payton, who was just starting his decline from All-NBA, and got Ray Allen, who would make second-team All-NBA in 2005.
Speaking of trades . . . .
Rusty Simmons of the San Francisco Chronicle reports: “League sources said the Warriors also have discussed [Monta] Ellis, among a variety of other players, in trade talks with Atlanta, Chicago, Memphis, Orlando and the Lakers.”
It’s always hard to know exactly what to make of “trade talks.” But I can’t think of a reason why the Hawks would be interested in Ellis, who has $33 million and three years left on a deal that includes a player option.
Simmons says the Warriors are looking for defensive help and want a big guard, a swingman and a post presence (and who doesn’t want one of those?). For what it’s worth, J.J. is a big guard who also can be a swingman, and Josh is a good defender who can play the 3, but look at the Golden State roster and tell me if there’s anyone the Hawks need/want?
Notes
- Marvin had outpatient surgery today to alleviate what the team says is an “isolated bulging disk” in his lower back. The Hawks said Marvin is set to begin rehab immediately and is expected to return to full basketball activities in six to weight weeks.
- The Arkansas Times talked to J.J., who says he might consider playing in Europe if there’s a lockout but added:” [I]f you go over there and get hurt, your contract is void.” That’s a lob for my blog people.
- The Hawks are in draft mode. They will start holding workouts for prospects next week but, unfortunately, there will be no media access. A list of prospects hopefully will be forthcoming.
- Teague has two basketball camps next week: June 13-15 at Salem High in Conyers and June 16-18 at Wheeler High in Marietta. Registration info is here.
- Al also has two camps: June 25-26 at Emory and June 28-29 in Lansing, Mich. Registration info is here.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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488 comments Add your comment
Buddy Grizzard
June 9th, 2011
3:20 am
“Joe, Josh and Al have been under 1st time head coaches for the duration of their formative years and/or supposed peak years (in JJ’s case). Can Horfy and Smoove still develop?” – Marcus
Yes, absolutely. They’re both still young and have not peaked yet. JJ is obviously in decline. And yes, it would help if we had a coach that wasn’t the worst coach in the NBA, who will never get a head coaching job again after he leaves his position with the Hawks.
“Why is it that I still think Marvin could get better?” – ToeKnee
Well we come to find out he had a back problem. This can be devastating for NBA players, see Larry Johnson. Hopefully he recovers. As documented elsewhere, you can expect a steep increase in production next season from Marvin as he resumes his role as backup scorer that was taken from him by JC1.
“Both Billups and Wallace were 2nd Team All NBA in 06. the hawks currently don’t have THAT on this roster.” – djbrough
I think Josh is a better player than Ben Wallace in his prime. I predict we will have three players next season who receive All-NBA votes: JJ, Josh and Al. That’s right you heard it here first, I’m predicting Joe Johnson will recover from his injuries in the offseason and bounce back to post improved numbers next season.
decriz
June 9th, 2011
6:06 am
JOE JOHNSON for MONTA ELLIS and ANDRIS BIEDRINS.
Breadown:
1. you get Monta Ellis ’scoring balls’ which JJ doesn’t have (about his defense, I don’t now of any player who has exploited a mismatch against him who hasn’t exploited going head to head against anybody else. Get what I mean, if the opponent scores in bunches, he’ll probably score in bunches against anybody else. Plus Monta Ellis is a great steals guy. A great addition to the highlight factory.)
2. you get a decent center/ man in the middle to free Al Horford to play the four. (hey we will play Orlando only FOUR games a regular season at most and seven if ever we meet in the play offs. Collins and defense by committee is still the best option against big Dwight, hey he could even move to the west)
3. fire Sund and grab the opportunity to hire Ric Adelman. Adelman IS the coach to tae this team to the next level.
4. next trade a package/combination of Jamal Crawford/Kirk Hinrich/Marvin Williams for SHANNON BROWN and MATT BARNES plus fillers (Luke Walton and hi high basketball IQ, the return of Joe Smith, etc.). Shannon Brown is the best off the bench SPAR PLUG out there, a great addition to the highlight factory. Matt Barnes is a decent wing player, had his moments in Golden State when given the chance, and is also a decent wing defender. The Lakers would want the talented point guard in Kirk Hinrich and the “potential” (yeah right) of Marvin Williams, and the scoring talents of Jamal. Hey pay the Laers to mae the deal. This will be for the best.
JustAThought
June 9th, 2011
6:46 am
If they keep this current “core” intact, they need to hire a very high BBIQ head coach. For the people suggesting making a trade with the Lakers for Bynum, you can forget that. They finally see what this guy is capable of in the playoffs and he was healthy. They ain’t gonna just give him away to the hawks…….maybe to the Orlando Majic for Dwight Howard, but not the hawks.
Don Flamenco
June 9th, 2011
7:12 am
Just a quick note on the “superstar” model that people have discussed is necessary to win a championship. I, for one, do not think that it is REQUIRED for a team to have a superstar in order to win the championship, but it definitely helps. Of course your chances of winning it all will be better with superstar players, but is it a requirement? No. Your odds of winning a title without a superstar in today’s game are going to be incredibly low, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. For those of you who know about proofs, the easiest way to disprove something is to to find a single counterexample in which the theory fails. In this case, you can recall the 2004 Pistons and you will have instantly disproved the cliche that a superstar is required to win a championship. Just keep that in mind.
Don’t get me wrong now, I’m not saying the Hawks or any other team shouldn’t pursue a superstar-caliber player, but I just wanted to clarify the fact that it is possible to win without a superstar. Teams without one are going to to have an incredibly difficult time attempting to do so, but it’s not completely out of reach.
Grandmaster JeJe
June 9th, 2011
7:12 am
Josh, Marvin, and ZaZa for Monta, Biedrins and Filler?
LOL!!!
ZaZa >>>>>> Biedrins
Josh >> Monta (he can defend and has size).
Marvin probably > Filler
No Thanks
Paddy
June 9th, 2011
7:12 am
grandmaster…….all that money that will be saved by the ASG on not having the Thrashers????? You must be kidding me. This group have been bleeding $ for years. They are not going to do that any more. ANY extra cash will now go back into their collective pockets for all those many “cash calls” they had to pony up. This group was formed to make money and show a profit. They will now go forward with the goal in mind of stopping the bleeding and lining their pockets. Nothing wrong with that. It is capitalism at its best. These guys are not Ted Turner or A. Blank remember.
Grandmaster JeJe
June 9th, 2011
7:19 am
If this ownership had any money at all or if we had a new ownership willing to spend, I guarantee Adelman would be our coach already
Grandmaster JeJe
June 9th, 2011
7:22 am
What ’s peoples’ obsessions with Monta?
He’s tiny, plays no defense, and is not a winner. He has made the playoffs maybe once in his career. We need a SG who can DEFEND and who has size, not some 5″5 ballhog who I can’t understand when he talks
Grandmaster JeJe
June 9th, 2011
7:24 am
Paddy,
I know about ASG’s financial woes, but if they got rid of a team, surely they could muster up a little money to get us into the diabolical Luxury Tax. I guess it’s too much to ask
FIRE BDASKG
Remarkable
June 9th, 2011
8:34 am
JJ go ahead and play in Europe. Maybe you will get hurt and we can get rid of that stupid contract we signed you to.
O'Brien
June 9th, 2011
8:41 am
Grandmaster JeJe
What ’s peoples’ obsessions with Monta?
He’s tiny, plays no defense, and is not a winner. He has made the playoffs maybe once in his career..
You do realize that before coming to the Hawks, Jamal had NEVER been to the playoffs, and he has been in the league much longer than Ellis.
However, the only way I take Ellis and his 3 years, $33 million, is if Golden State takes Marvin and his 3 years, $23 mil.
Because we could start Teague alongside JJ, and bring Hinrich and Ellis off the bench. Hinrich is bigger than Ellis, so he could defend the bigger SG when needed. Our backcourt bench would be explosive.
O'Brien
June 9th, 2011
8:45 am
It was not a bad pick,
..Fair enough , but you were not here when the hawks went to him and he averaged 14ppg for three straight years!.
The problem is not Marvin’s scoring average. The problem is his invisibility, his lack of impact plays, and the fact that he misses a ton of open shots. Bruce Bowen only averaged 6 ppg for his career, but nobody questioned his lockdown defense and his ability to make the big corner 3 to help the Spurs win titles.
Everytime i hear another coach or announcer talking about Marvin, they mention how the Hawks have refused to use him.
Except for Thibodea, and the Hawks announcers, who else in the NBA have you heard made a comment about Marvin being underrated?
mountain_jim
June 9th, 2011
8:59 am
Well the owners will not / can not fire themselves, and thank god they can’t sell the team to be moved away, so add my vote to the Fire Sund camp.
Other than bringing in Jamal and drafting/swapping for the now thrown away JC2, I disagree with every move and every contract he has made.
And damn he comes off sounding like an arrogant pr**k who thinks we all must believe his spin!
Good coverage and good interview MC.
Reddjonn68
June 9th, 2011
9:14 am
Where is Monta going to play because Teague has locked the PG spot down. Will he replace JC & come off the bench making 11 million a year? If he is suppose to be our Jason Terry, then that’s cool, but what will that idiot Sund give up to get him!!! We need a real good shooter at the 3 spot, who cares if he can’t play D or not because Marvin is no stopper himself. This would open up the floor for Teague to drive & dish or penetrate & score. This would also allow J-Smoove to actually get back on the block & Al to play around the basket. I’m sorry, but JJ is just a complimentary player at best, he doesn’t have 25% of the desire or athletism that D-Wade displays every night even if Wade is not scoring. If we are trying to use the Pistons blueprint, do we have those cornerstone players who produced in big clutch games, do you remember that squad….. C. Billups, Rip Hamilton, T. Prince, Rasheed Wallace, & Ben Wallace…..everyone new their role & trusted each other to get it done….even with a hot-head like Rasheed!!!
STRETCH
June 9th, 2011
9:15 am
JT and JJ with Hinrich and Monta coming off the bench would be a major headache for the NBA!
Reddjonn68
June 9th, 2011
9:37 am
STRETCH
Agreed this would be a defensive nightmare for any team in the league, but my gut feeling is telling me the Hawks will end up with the headache!….due to the fact Rick ” Dumb ” Sund will probably trade J-Smoove or Horford just to get Monta!
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
9:38 am
The 1979 Super Sonics and the 2004 Piston are the 2 teams that won championships without a superstar.
That’s a 25 year gap, and this is the model the Hawks have chosen to
follow.
During that 25 year span here are the teams that won titles (Lakers 8, Bulls 6, Celtics 3, Spurs 2, Pistons 3, Rockets 2 & 76ers 1).
Look at the superstar from those teams Lakers (Magic Kareem, Worthy Shaq & Kobe) Bulls (Jordan, Pippen, & Rodman), Celtic (Bird, McHale, Parish and DJ), (Duncan and Robinson), Pistons (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman), Rockets (Hakeem & Drexler), and the Sixers (Malone, & Dr,J).
The Hawks had a chance to get a superstar after they had already gotten JJ and JSmoove, but they drafted Marvin Williams. Chris Paul was on record saying he was excited because he thought he was going to get a chance to play with JJ.
That move set this franchise back years and there is no way around it. Second round and out is the best this franchise will do for a few years.
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
9:39 am
This team has shown evidence that it has no idea of how to evaluate talent.
Teague is a diamond that sat on the bench for 2 years and no one realized he could play, until they had no choice but to play him extended minutes. SMH.
Reddjonn68
June 9th, 2011
9:50 am
His an honest look at how we have graded out an organization over the last 6 yrs.
Ownership = F-
Management = F-
Coaching = D-
Players = B-
Fans = B
Plain & simple we are not making the grade, in order to be mentioned with contenders.
Reddjonn68
June 9th, 2011
9:56 am
I meant; Here is
Buddy Grizzard
June 9th, 2011
9:57 am
“Fades away on every shot, doesn’t hustle. Can’t defend.” – SteveW
That’s the Rick Sund prototype.
Dukester
June 9th, 2011
9:59 am
Great title this is a lemon and has always been. Dallas is the same time over the last 5 years or so give or take a few players. The difference is Tyson Chandler’s defense and tough rebounding in the paint which we dont have because of the lemon we have with a bunch of 6′9 forwards. So here goes:
First order of business sign a center. My list: Tyson Chandler, Nene, Sam Dalembert in that order. Pay whatever is needed and go into the luxury tax. This team will be busted over the next 2 years if they dont win a title.
Second find a trade for Marvin and yes it can be done. We will have to take a bad contract back but at least that bad contract will contribute. I say trade Marvin and Kirk Hinrich for Baron Davis. We must find away to move Marvin at any cost, Kirk is cool but I believe Baron would bring more to the point guard position plus if they took Marvin as a filler we would be sending 16 million taking back only 14 million. Kirk contract expires next year so the benefit for Cleveland would be moving Baron and Kirk’s expiring contract.
Fill the bench with better players!!! And no twin is not a option at center in this league!
Kevin
June 9th, 2011
10:03 am
I will support no team owned by the ATL Spirit ever again. You hung me out to dry on the Thrashers and you have made the Hawks just what they were in the 80’s good enough to get to the playoffs but not good enough to get past the 2nd round. Typical ATL Spirit. If you would have made the Thrashers good enough to get into the playoffs we wouldnt be having this conversation.
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2011
10:04 am
Interesting take. Does that mean we’re all fools for following a team incapable of winning a title? That we have pinned our hopes on a lemon? It would appear that two-thirds of the NBA teams are lemons as less than 10 have a title banner hanging in their arena. IMO, the best we can hope for is to have our expectations exceeded. Forecast ~45 regular season wins and a first round lost and be pleasantly surprised by a competitive 6 game series int he 2nd round. There could only be 2-3 fan bases with legit title expectations to start any given season… I seriously doubt that even 40% of Dallas fans expected their team to be playing on June 9th based on their performances in the past few postseasons. So I’d suggest that success be defined as exceeding expecations… or you will be a frustrated fan for possibly a few (more) decades.
Ken Strickland
June 9th, 2011
10:20 am
When the Hawks decided to replicate the Detroit Model, they started off by hiring MWoodson from the Pistons staff to make it work. The problem was, the Piston Model was based on DEF, and for whatever reason, Woodson relied more on OFF than DEF, although he said he didn’t give a damn about OFF.
That much was evidenced by his almost total reliance on 2 DEF liabilities, Jamal Crawford and Mike Bibby. He certainly made no effort to replicate any of the OFF or DEF principles that were the staples for the Pistons. He seemed to be more interested in trying to establish his own individual identity, which was completely different from what his former mentor LBrown had established so successful in Detroit.
In hiring LDrew to replace MWoodson, we’ve failed to get any closer to the Detroit Model. Drew talks about DEF, but just like Woodson, he’s been just as reliant on OFF, which is evidenced by his almost total reliance on DEF liabilities Jamal Crawford and MBibby.
If we, in reality, want to duplicate the Detroit Model, we need to hire a HC that’s not married to a certain offensive philosophy, like ISO or MOTION OFF. We need someone who, like LBrown, that can come in here and evaluate our individual talent and design an OFF philosohpy that fits and utilizes that talent to its fullest. He must also do more than just give lip service to holding everyone accountable defensively, which is about all Woodson and Drew have managed to do.
The Detroit model can work with the Hawks, but not with us treating DEF like it’s an after thought. We need a serious and solid DEF approach, and everyone has to be held accountable when effort and results aren’t there. We don’t need HC’s who insist on contorting our entire DEF just to compensate for DEF liabilities just because they might have certain perferred, but limited OFF attributes.
LDrew has to get as serious and committed to DEF and DEF accountability as he seems to be about his Motion OFF. We now have the guards in place to have a rock solid perimeter DEF, which would go a long way towards improving our interior DEF. With more speed, quickness, versatility, penetrating ability, and DEF in our backcourt, we can completely change the way we play OFF and DEF.
Against Orlando, we witnessed how much of a difference it made to have a player like JCollins, who held his own defensively against DHoward. It allowed our perimeter guys, and interior guys as well, to stay with their man and limit their 3pt shooting and interior passing. Having a solid perimeter DEF will have the same effect on our interior DEF.
With players like JTeague, KHinrich, Pape Sy, DWilkins, JCollins, JJohnson, MWilliams, JSmith, and AHorford, all of which are solid DEF players, there’s absolutely no doggone excuse for us not playing better DEF. I’ll guarantee one thing, if we had hired Bulls HC Thibeadou instead of LDrew, we’d be in the finals instead of Miami. We’d be playing the kind of DEF we’re capable of playing, and we’d likely be better offensively.
There’s no way Thibeadou would be stupid enough to start and/or play Bibby so many mins, especially if he’s not producing offensively and hurting the team defensively. You can bet he would have been more selective with Jamal, and benched him whenever he wasn’t producing offensively and hurting the team defensively. You can definitely bet we would have seen a whole lot more of JTeague during the season under him, and maybe even Pape Sy. THE MAN IS SERIOUS ABOUT HIS DEF.
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
10:26 am
Astro Joe
The Hawks have beeen in Atlanata over 40 years and not 1 apperance in the conference finals.
Add that to 9 straight losing seasons and still not landing a superstar.
So should the fans expectations be based of winning or losing?
If it is based off the 9 losing seasons then there have some success, but if the goal is to win a title then the Hawks are failing miserably.
The Mavs have at least competed for a title twice in the last 5 years.
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2011
10:48 am
Geemack, there is an area in between winning a title (which is the premise of MC’s blog) and losing (lottery team). It is the area we are in now. My point is that if you only allow yourself to be satisfied with the gold trophy, then history suggests that you will be miserable for a long, long time. I think like 8 teams have won it in about 30 years. Should ~20 fan bases stay miserable while waiting for the brass ring? If we make it to the ECF next season with this same core of players, should we feel like losers? I wouldn’t because that would have (far) exceeded my expectations.
ryan
June 9th, 2011
11:03 am
Bring in Monta Ellis i also hear Rudy Gay on block as well Sund needs to something before the CBA .
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2011
11:04 am
Lakers, Celtics, Spurs, Bulls, Pistons, Rockets, 76ers and Heat. (And the 76ers won in 1983). Every other fan base is supposed to be miserable while cheering a lemon? I enjoy shrimp, salmon and catfish… if I have to eat lobster, king crab and caviar every time I have seafood, I would be living a sad, sad life. (At the same time, I’m not trying to make myself happy with sardines or anything else out of a can).
hawksfancents95
June 9th, 2011
11:12 am
well it looks like the trade ive been advocating for could be in the works. id love to get monta ellis in a hawks uni. maybe we could go al horford and marvin for monta ellis and biendrins. we could let biendrins and zaza duke nukem it out for staring rights and that would give us a good C rotation and let jason collins do his thing aainst orlando and have his spot minutes. meanwhile a teague and ellis backcourt would actually get us to the free throw line and ellis is an allstar in the east at 2.
teague ellis joe josh zaza bench kirk biendrins collins magnum 48th pick. can u imagaine how teams would have ro prepare for joe and monta? let alone teague driving all day and kirk playing solid team ball and josh smith giving us 17 and 9 as our third option?
if we land monta i see us in the ecf taking miami to 7 and that could be anyones game if we land our in/famous jumpers.
sund make this trade it will get asg to renew your contract and the hawks will be in the discussion for best teams in the nba. ellis is that superstar that we need. ellis just needs to be on a winning club and we will see his true potential. as for his many shots that was only cuz hes on a bad team and he knows he had to take em and for his D he will play better defense knowing it can finally get him to the finals
go hawks! make it happen
northcyde
June 9th, 2011
11:18 am
Don Flamenco
June 9th, 2011
7:12 am
Just a quick note on the “superstar” model that people have discussed is necessary to win a championship. I, for one, do not think that it is REQUIRED for a team to have a superstar in order to win the championship, but it definitely helps. Of course your chances of winning it all will be better with superstar players, but is it a requirement? No. Your odds of winning a title without a superstar in today’s game are going to be incredibly low, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible. For those of you who know about proofs, the easiest way to disprove something is to to find a single counterexample in which the theory fails. In this case, you can recall the 2004 Pistons and you will have instantly disproved the cliche that a superstar is required to win a championship. Just keep that in mind.
Don’t get me wrong now, I’m not saying the Hawks or any other team shouldn’t pursue a superstar-caliber player, but I just wanted to clarify the fact that it is possible to win without a superstar. Teams without one are going to to have an incredibly difficult time attempting to do so, but it’s not completely out of reach.
****************************
Here’s the truth about the DETROIT model.
Yes, that team has no OFFENSIVE superstars. Matter of fact, they were a slightly below average offensive team.
- Billups shot UNDER 40% in both the regular season and the playoffs.
- No one averaged over 18 ppg during the regular season
- No one averaged over 6 assists during the regular season
- No player had a PER over 19
- Their scoring “Big 3″ of Hamilton – Billups – Wallace is by far the weakest scoring trio of all time to win a title.
The DETROIT model is not one based off of equal opportunity team offense. The DETROIT model is a model based off of suffocating TEAM DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING.
So if a team is going to follow that model, you need to assemble a team that can defend the perimeter AND the post at an ELITE level. And you need to bring in a coach that LIVES by those principles. Your entire culture as a team and as an organization has to revolve around defense and rebounding.
It has to be a philosophy like what you see in the NFL, with teams like the Pittsburgh Steelers and Baltimore Ravens. If you know just one thing about those two teams, you know that they will play tough, hard nosed DEFENSE above anything else they do. So if an NBA team is going to follow the DETROIT model, they must know what they did as a team when they won the title.
- 1st in the league in defensive 3FG% ( 30.2% )
- 1st in the league in defensive PPG ( 84.3 )
- 1st in the league in blocks per game ( 6.95 )
- 2nd in the league in defensive eFG% ( 44.1% )
- 2nd in the league in defensive rating ( 95.4 )
- 3rd in the league in defensive FG% ( 41.3% )
************************
Just for a reference point, this is how the Hawks stacked up in those categories this year:
- 4th in defensive 3FG% ( 33.8% )
- 9th in defensive PPG ( 95.8 )
- 12th in defensive eFG% ( 49.5% )
- 13th in defensive rating ( 107 )
- 18th in defensive FG% ( 46% )
- T28th in blocks ( 4.16 )
So what does that tell you? It tells you that we have a loooooong way to go before even thinking about implementing the DETROIT model. Wow @ the blocks. That means that other than Josh Smith, and on rare occasions Al Horford, we have absolutely no one who will deter shots at the rim. It’s one of the main reasons I was crying for a guy like Jarvis Varnado last year in the draft, despite his rail thin frame. But back to the DETROIT model . . .
**********************
And in the DETROIT model, your “superstar” is going to be a DEFENSIVE one.
Ben Wallace was the true superstar on that team, despite being BY FAR the worst offensive player on that squad. It was he that was the Defensive Player of the Year. It was he that led the league in total rebounds, offensive rebounds, and defensive rating. It was he that made 2nd team All NBA, when no one else on the squad made any team ( even a defensive all NBA team ).
Sund has NO CLUE what the (( bleepin )) DETROIT model is.
The DETROIT model means that your entire focus as a GM would’ve been to assemble the best all around defensive team in the league. Instead, your best defensive acquisition was Jason Collins . . . and he’s only somewhat effective against ONE GUY, not as a defender/rebounder/shot blocker as a whole.
Hey Mr. Sund . . . you want to construct the DETROIT model in Atlanta?
- go get us a starting quality center who can rebound and block shots
- then go get us a backup center who can do the same thing at a lesser level
- then go get us a perimeter defender who can make life difficult for elite level scorers
- then go get us a head coach who lives and dies by defense
ryan
June 9th, 2011
11:27 am
I think also the Hawks should look at Brandon Heywood and Tyson Chandler if they decide not return to Dallas of course a lot will depend if they win the championship .
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
11:42 am
Astro Joe
The sardine comment is hilarious.
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2011
11:49 am
Designing a plan to copy the exception to a rule is always a bad plan. Chasing after the data point anamoly typically leads you down a path to failure.
northcyde, don’t forget the dynamics of a HOF head coach and a collection of “throw-away” players who used their individual rejection to form a remarkable and unique team. Ben, Rasheed, Rip and Chauncey could each wax poetic about being “dissed” by other teams in their careers. And then that group of players came together like the Bad News Bears. And we’re supposed to believe that that is a repeatable model?
Give me 10 consecutive years of 2nd round or better seasons.
Neki Ecko
June 9th, 2011
11:50 am
Detroit Model!?!, Detroit Model?!?, Detroit Model?????????????????
I am still trying to figure out why does Sund try to compare this team to the Detroits championship team or other teams like the Spurs. Those teams have something that Hawks dont have and never had for a very very long time (during the years of Deke and Nique). Those guys knew what role they had to play on that team
- A True Floor General(Billups)
- Rebounding Machine (Wallace)
- Inside-Outside Threat (Sheed)
- Defensive Ace (Prince)
- Constant Dirty Work/Scorer (Rip)
- Good Bench that can take over a game if need.
- Very High BBIQ
Spurs has that as well, so the question because do the Hawks has this and sadly the answer is NO.
This squad reminds of the Memphis teams that was build like this (BK other team that he was GM as well.)
Something has to be done, like this year after the CBA because East is contiune to get stronger and it wont be a cake walk to the playoffs anymore. Everybody knows that except ADSG and Sund. Detroit model will work if you have the piece to it and we seriously dont have it and will never have it.
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2011
11:52 am
Geemack, the funny thing is that my father used to LOVE sardines (with crackers). And honestly, it isn’t a bad combination. But eating stuff out of a can (including Spam) just isn’t advisable if you can avoid it.
drmaryb (*_-)
June 9th, 2011
11:57 am
Back Down!
“And now he is out for 6 to 8 weeks to fix a back issue (didnt he have a back issue 2 years ago)? Thanks Rick.”. -O’Brien-
_________________
IDK Marvin was having back surgery. Seems odd to me, I don’t recall any serious, lingering back issues, except for that hard fall he sustained much earlier in the season. I hope that goes well for Marvin.
Well, this certainly answers one question regarding: What will Marvin be doing this Summer to improve his game? Answer: Besides lying on his big azz? Not a damned thing!
Get Well soon Marvin, we really need you! On second thought, did he do this (elective surgery) to lower his trade value, as if it could be any lower? And yes, all surgery is an elective decision, sans life threatening trauma for the most part. This really bodes badly for the Hawks org. and fans! Another Summer of talent waste and erosion.
DC
June 9th, 2011
11:58 am
I say Hawks trade JJ Marvin and Rolle for Ellis Beidrins and Wright.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
Then, after that we go hard after Nene in the free agency, and all of a sudden, we have one of the most dangerous lineups in the league:
Teague
Ellis
Smith
Horford
Nene
Bench: Hinrich, Beidrins, Wright Zaza
Reserves: Sy and Collins.
I could see that team getting us past Chicago.
DS
June 9th, 2011
12:01 pm
I like Monta but we don’t need help w/our backcourt. The trade that I see most feasible is Marvin for Haywood. After this postseason, Chandler will be re-signed in Dallas, so they will have to get rid of Haywood and his relatively big contract (Chandler’s 11+mm + Haywood’s 6mm = too much for 2 Cs). Caron Butler most likely will sign w/Nets or Clippers I think.
For our Hawks, we keep our core plus Haywood and Zaza splitting minutes at the 5. Dallas gets a serviceable backup SF in Marvin and who knows, maybe he even flourishes in a new team and takes the starting position over Marion.
Teague/Hinrich/Sy
JJ/Hinrich/Sy
Josh/Damien (re-sign for a year)
Al/Rolle
Haywood/Zaza
Ken Strickland
June 9th, 2011
12:14 pm
NORTHCYDE-you basically repeated what I said, but you did a helleva lot better job of doing it. Your stats brought home the message far better than anything I said. A lot of us Hawk fans were former basketball players at one time or another. And as such, we should be able to appreciate the attitude that can, and likely did develop with the Hawks under both Woodson and Drew.
When you are asked to contain your man, as well as work extra hard to compensate for a couple of DEF liabilities who maintains an open door into the lane, you start to develop and attitude and ask questions. Why should I be held accountable by the HC for not always being able to compensate for the DEF liabilities the HC insists on playing?
Why should I be held accountable, and not the player(s) causing the problem in the 1st place? Why should I give a damn, or care more about the problems of a player(s) that are DEF liabilities, when the HC obviously doesn’t? We all read where LDrew said he would hold everyone accountable defensively. We all saw where he definitely didn’t hold MBibby or JCrawford accountable defensively once during the entire season.
We definitely watched Drew hold everyone else accountable for Bibby and Jamal’s poor DEF, by creating vaious gimmicks to try and hide what everyone already knew, and so successfully exploited. The responsibility of taking this team to the next level isn’t up to the individual players alone. The primary responsibility rests with LDrew. He needs to stop the BS, lies and rhetoric and start actually holding players, all players accountable for their actions or inactions, especially on DEF.
We have far too many solid defensive players to allow DEF to be a major problem. It’s mostly negative attitudes and a lack of committment, rather than ability, that’s preventing us from becoming a solid DEF team. And those negative attitudes and lack of committment from the players, are the result of 6yrs of double talk, lies, BS, and the lack of committment to DEF from former HC MWoodson, which was carried on in yr 7 by LDrew.
We’ve witnessed the Hawks get serious about DEF and literally shut teams down, but it was never a sustained effort, nor was it done with any degree of consistency. That needs to change, and it starts with the HC holding ALL PLAYERS accountable, and quickly using his bench when he’s not getting the effort or results that’s need, especially on DEF.
The Hawks are a more talented team than the Bulls, but the Bulls are a better team than the Hawks. They have more structure, especially on DEF, and they have far better bench leadership.
STRETCH
June 9th, 2011
12:16 pm
Why is there so many people on here screaming “getting past Chicago?” The object is to get past whoever to the Finals. And in case yall forgot, Miami is playing in da Finals currently. Orlando still has Dwight and they arent happy, Chicago is a scorer away from the finals, and Boston…well, we know Danny Ainge is not going to let the window close without another run.
Bottom line, management has to make a move this offseason if they are serious about this team.
Ken Strickland
June 9th, 2011
12:18 pm
DS-Now that’s some solid reasoning. Heywood as a backup would be solid, and after trading Marvin, we’d have DWilkins, or maybe even Pape Sy, left to backup JJ at SF.
terrell
June 9th, 2011
12:21 pm
Hell, I’d trade JJ for Ellis and a draft pick. Might as well. We aint goin nowhere with Joe.
Or how bout Marvin and Joe for Ellis and Biedrens?
Teague/Monte/Josh/Horford/Biedrins
Kirk/Jamal/Damien/Zaza/Collins/FA
DC
June 9th, 2011
12:22 pm
The thing is, Haywood as a backup or a starter won’t help us compete with Chicago or Miami any better. Frankly I think we need a better a coach, and a whole new look to the team, but keeping the same key parts. IT’s hard for me to say this, but I think Johnson has to go. His contract is holding the team down, he plays stall ball way too much, and his defense isn’t all that great. Ellis is one of the best attackers in the league, and he’s become a lethal scorer. Nene is 5 times the player Haywood is, and he should be our focus in free agency. Johnson is getting older, so replacing him with a young, deadly scoring weapon makes sense, along with snagging a defensive monster in free agency.
DC
June 9th, 2011
12:24 pm
terrell, I think Marvin and Joe for Ellis Biedrins and Wright.
Also, I’d love to keep Damien Wilkins, he was nice energy boost
terrell
June 9th, 2011
12:24 pm
Marvin Williams will ALWAYS have back problems.
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
12:27 pm
Astro Joe
I agree, we should appreciate the success we have experienced.
However, as a fan should we want our teams to get better?
In 08 the Hawks over achieved when they pushed the eventual champs to 7 games. We left that series knowing that a young team had given it’s all.
In 09 against the Cavs against the one man show. The Hawks didn’t put up a fight.
If the Hawks competed they could have at least went to 7 games with the Cavs.
The Hawks were better at every position except PG & SF.
In 10 no fight at all against the Magic.
In 11 we got beat by a Chicago team that was inexperience, and less talented, but they played harder on both ends of the floor.
I have no problem cheering for a team that gives us maximum effort every night.
Geemack
June 9th, 2011
12:33 pm
Since 1980 the Lakers have been to the NBA finals 16 times (9 with Magic and 7 with Kobe) and won 10 titles.
The Lakers recently allowed the contract of their Assistant GM to expire. That should be the Hawks 1st step toward winning a title.
terrell
June 9th, 2011
12:33 pm
Marvin knew his azz was about to get traded. That’s why he took his bigg ole butt to a specialist. lol! “Isolated bulging disk my azz”. lol
J.J.M.
June 9th, 2011
12:41 pm
will the sugery help marvin play/walk better?