Atlanta Hawks: ‘Detroit model’ still a lemon

So if you are trying to be a championship contender, would you rather be GM of the Knicks or the Hawks right about now?

In Atlanta, you have a roster that’s been built on the Detroit model, which is historically flawed because a superstar player has almost always been necessary to win a title. But you do have two All-Stars, an All-Star (if enigmatic) talent, a promising young point guard and a solid veteran point guard.

In New York, you have the opposite problem. The Knicks have two superstar talents and not enough around them. Howard Beck of the New York Times breaks down the dilemma face by the Knicks:

As [Donnie] Walsh noted last week in announcing his decision to step down, “we have the stars” required to be respectable. “They will do what they do, and we’re lucky to have them,” he said. But, he noted, “You need more than that” to contend for championships.

The proof is in the playoffs, where each conference finalist had invaluable supporting players: Joakim Noah and Luol Deng in Chicago, Serge Ibaka and Thabo Sefolosha in Oklahoma City, Tyson Chandler and Shawn Marion in Dallas, Udonis Haslem and Mike Miller in Miami.

They are not stars, but they are indispensable in a title chase — the players who “fill in the blanks,” as Walsh said — setting hard screens, pouncing on loose balls, hitting timely jumpers, guarding top scorers, challenging shots in the paint. The great teams have such players in abundance. The Knicks have a dearth of them.

Chicago, Oklahoma City, Dallas and Miami also had at least one player named second-team All-NBA or better, like all but five champions and 10 runners-up in the league’s history. Rick Sund suggested the only way to get those kind of players is by picking No. 1 or No. 2 in the draft or spending free agent cash.

I don’t have to remind my blog people of the many ways the Hawks have messed up selecting a future superstar in the draft before Sund got here. Nor do you need to be told that Sund just gave away a pick to Washington because of his mistake in signing Bibby to that deal. And you already know the No. 1 reason the Hawks don’t have the ability to sign a superstar is because Sund gave J.J. the richest contract in the league but didn’t get anywhere close to superstar-level or even usual J.J.-like production. (The deals for Bibby and Marvin didn’t help, either.)

There’s another way in addition trades and free agency, of course. Top 10 players can be acquired in trades, which isn’t easy to do but is not without precedent. Looking back since 1980, there are a handful of such players who joined new teams through trades and helped them win titles: Kareem, Dr. J (who was actually “sold” to the 76ers by the Nets), Tiny Archibald, Moses Malone, Pippen (after the Sonics drafted him No. 5 overall), Barkley (after he became disgruntled in Philly), Penny (after the Warriors drafted him No. 3 overall), Mutombo (sorry to bring it up), J. Kidd, and Kobe (after the Hornets drafted him No. 13 overall).

So if you doubt the Detroit model is a winner, and you are convinced the Hawks need to get a superstar to be real contenders, then hope Sund can somehow get one through a trade. Sund apparently considers the trades for Jamal and Hinrich to be major deals but neither required the Hawks to give up a major piece.

Getting a superstar would require that kind of bold move, which is tricky since Atlanta lacks coveted assets like draft picks and cheap/productive/promising players. Making such a move while also keeping enough help around for the acquired superstar makes it trickier still, as the Knicks are finding out.

Sund has been involved in some major swaps. In 2000 with Detroit, he traded away Grant Hill in his prime to Orlando for Ben Wallace. Eventually Wallace became the kind of elite defender who made the Detroit model work, to the point that he was voted second-team NBA in 2006. And while with Seattle in 2003, Sund traded away Gary Payton, who was just starting his decline from All-NBA, and got Ray Allen, who would make second-team All-NBA in 2005.

Speaking of trades . . . .

Rusty Simmons of the San Francisco Chronicle reports: “League sources said the Warriors also have discussed [Monta] Ellis, among a variety of other players, in trade talks with Atlanta, Chicago, Memphis, Orlando and the Lakers.”

It’s always hard to know exactly what to make of “trade talks.” But I can’t think of a reason why the Hawks would be interested in Ellis, who has $33 million and three years left on a deal that includes a player option.

Simmons says the Warriors are looking for defensive help and want a big guard, a swingman and a post presence (and who doesn’t want one of those?). For what it’s worth, J.J. is a big guard who also can be a swingman, and Josh is a good defender who can play the 3, but look at the Golden State roster and tell me if there’s anyone the Hawks need/want?

Notes

  • Marvin had outpatient surgery today to alleviate what the team says is an “isolated bulging disk” in his lower back. The Hawks said Marvin is set to begin rehab immediately and is expected to return to full basketball activities in six to weight weeks.
  • The Arkansas Times talked to J.J., who says he might consider playing in Europe if there’s a lockout but added:” [I]f you go over there and get hurt, your contract is void.” That’s a lob for my blog people.
  • The Hawks are in draft mode. They will start holding workouts for prospects next week but, unfortunately, there will be no media access. A list of prospects hopefully will be forthcoming.
  • Teague has two basketball camps next week: June 13-15 at Salem High in Conyers and June 16-18 at Wheeler High in Marietta. Registration info is here.
  • Al also has two camps: June 25-26 at Emory and June 28-29 in Lansing, Mich. Registration info is here.

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

488 comments Add your comment

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:12 pm

FIRE LD

FIRE SUND

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:21 pm

THE HAWKS ARE IN DRAFT MODE??? WE DON’T HAVE A FREAKING 1ST ROUNDER. IDIOT SUND

MC, now that the Thrahsers have been sold, do you think the ASG will throw some more money into the Hawks payrol? We all know blah blah blah we have the 8th highest payroll or whatever, but we need more

Ron E.

June 8th, 2011
3:23 pm

“Looking back since 1980, there are a handful of such players who joined new teams through trades and helped them win titles: Kareem, Dr. J (who was actually “sold” to the 76ers by the Nets), Tiny Archibald, Moses Malone, Pippen (after the Sonics drafted him No. 5 overall), Barkley (after he became disgruntled in Philly), Penny (after the Warriors drafted him No. 3 overall), Mutombo (sorry to bring it up), J. Kidd, and Kobe (after the Hornets drafted him No. 13 overall).”

I’m pretty sure Barkley and Kidd haven’t won titles unless you meant conference title instead of NBA championship. I’m not sure on a few of those others either.

Michael Cunningham

June 8th, 2011
3:25 pm

@ (Grandmaster?) JeJe: “MC, now that the Thrahsers have been sold, do you think the ASG will throw some more money into the Hawks payrol? We all know blah blah blah we have the 8th highest payroll or whatever, but we need more.”

if you are asking if they will be willing to pay the tax, i would say no. unless, of course it’s for that proverbial “right player” but under the current rules how can they even do that?

Rob

June 8th, 2011
3:27 pm

Not a Marvin hater, but I’m wondering if this surgery will fix his “duck walk.”

Erf

June 8th, 2011
3:27 pm

That entire post-Thrashers payroll and the money the ASG made off of the sale needs to go to bringing in a top-flight guy like Dwight Howard. After turning the screws on Thrashers fans, they really need to make the Hawks great. I don’t care if they become the Yankees (with a salary cap) of the NBA. Making the Hawks a team that can compete straight up with Miami would go a long way towards building faith with the fans (like myself) that are currently revolted with them (ASG).

After all, they’re not losing all that money on a hickey team they don’t want anymore right?

Also, bring some pre-season NHL to Atlanta. It’s the least they could do… like the old days at the Omni.

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:28 pm

Penny didn’t win a ring either unfortunately. Everybody loved Hardaway. Wasn’t he on Miami earlier this year?

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:29 pm

The only reason Marvin is getting surgery is that it was too stressful for him to work out at UNC *AND* work toward his African Studies Degree, so now he conveniently got surgery so he can focus exclusively on his degree

Michael Cunningham

June 8th, 2011
3:31 pm

@Ron E. “I’m pretty sure Barkley and Kidd haven’t won titles unless you meant conference title instead of NBA championship. I’m not sure on a few of those others either.”

yeah, i originally only had title winners on the list but then changed it to include all top 10 guys who changed teams. i didn’t change the intro part, though.

/fixed

ToeKnee

June 8th, 2011
3:33 pm

Enter your comments here

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:33 pm

“It is going to be very hard for us to get that MVP candidate unless you pick one or two [in the draft],” Sund said. “Or unless you happen to have … free-agent money, to get one in free agency. It’s going to be tough, so we are going to have to do it the hard way.”

Whose fault is it we don’t have free agent money? Probably the guy who gave 7.5/M a year to Marvin F’ing Williams

Sund also claimed Joe has been to the 2nd round 3 teams and listed players who haven’t been that many times, COMPLETELY neglecting to mention that CP3 and Melo have been to the WCF LOL

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:37 pm

Najeh killing it on previous blog:
.
“I think other than–Oklahoma City and Chicago were the only two teams that didn’t have a lot of highs and lows during the season. Certainly LA did and Dallas did and Miami did. Your [media] colleagues had Spoelstra fired three times. So it’s been up and down and we fell right into that. We’ve been up and down. ”

Yeah, I remember all those times when LA and Dallas and Miami were losing by 30 at home to .500 teams.

“In some ways it might be a little bit like Dallas, although we were younger than Dallas.”

Yeah, I see where the Hawks have a future Hall of Famer as a go-to guy on the current roster. Of course.

“When you have a good team, it’s difficult to get someone who is drafted [even] in the first round to come in and play right away. ”

Sure, if your coaching staff is comprised of incompetent buffoons who don’t know anything about developing young players.

“The core group of our players have, I think, improved every single year.”

I guess Jeff Teague is the only member of the core group.

“Or unless you happen to have–a few years back when they had free-agent money, to get one in free agency.”

Which, of course, the Hawks couldn’t do because Sund decided to give $20 million worth of annual salary to Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby, and Zaza Pachulia in the summer of 2009.

“And to his credit, I think most of the time he has had an opportunity. . . . .”

…to collect splinters on his ass.

“I make comparisons to Larry with Nate McMillan.”

Coming from a front office that likes to compare Smoove to LeBron James, maybe they should stay away from comparisons altogether.

“There are only three teams that have made it to the conference semifinals three consecutive years: L.A., Boston and us.”

I’m surprised it took him this long to pull that out of the deck.

“Carmelo Anthony, who was probably one of the most sought after players during the trade deal, he’s only made it to the second round once. ”

He has also made it to the conference finals once, which is something this franchise HAS NEVER DONE IN THEIR ENTIRE EXISTENCE IN THIS CITY OMG QUIT SPINNING EVERYTHING YOU DOUCHEBAG SUND ASDLKFJAS;LDKFJA;SDKFJA;SDLKFJ

“You had a situation where the Lakers, three or four games before the All-Star game, ‘They’ve got to break it up. They’ve got to make a trade.’ And then they came out of the All-Star break and they win 17 of 18 games.”

Which of course amounted to sh-t because they got embarrassed in the 2nd round and are now facing an offseason of turmoil and almost certain roster changes. Maybe they should have made that trade after all.

Marcus

June 8th, 2011
3:37 pm

ya know …… the NBA rage is to collect a ‘Big 3′.

Do we have ours ……albeit underdeveloped/not-as-refined?

Joe, Josh and Al have been under 1st time head coaches for the duration of their formative years and/or supposed peak years (in JJ’s case).
We can’t do anything about it now …. but can Horfy and Smoove still develop or are they “are what they are” ??!?!

Najeh Davenpoop

June 8th, 2011
3:42 pm

Please no trades with Golden State. We have enough awful trade scenarios involving that team getting posted here on a regular basis without some SF columnist fanning the flames. Nobody on that team plays D and everyone on that team has inflated stats because of their uptempo system and lack of depth. If you are trading Marvin for Curry/Ellis/Lee/Biedrins, fine, but nobody of value should be involved in any trade discussion with them.

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:45 pm

Sund on Dallas:
“And they got beat pretty much embarrassingly, by their standards, in the last three years.”

I guess he says them losing in 1st rd 3 years in a row is bad for their standards.

We got embarrassed 3 years in a row in the 2nd round (the Chicago series was NOT that close) and he is happy. We take a team 6 games in 2nd round and coaching staff and front office are ecstatic

Marcus

June 8th, 2011
3:47 pm

MC,
I mentioned last week on Big Ray’s Hawks Fan Blog, I would like to use free agency to snag Golden State SF Al Thornton and Milwaukee PF Luc MBM (wont even try to spell). Not sure if either would come to ATL as guaranteed 2nd squad players, even if we threw out good offers to them.

Willy

June 8th, 2011
3:48 pm

Championship teams often have superstar coaches too. Before the Hawks trade away their talent I’d like to see someone coach the team who has a history of developing players.

Najeh Davenpoop

June 8th, 2011
3:49 pm

As for the original question, of course I’d rather be the Knicks GM. Supporting players can be found using non-lottery picks and by trading pieces that may not seem valuable at first (see for example Portland trading a bunch of filler for Gerald Wallace or Detroit trading the non-lottery pick eventually used on Smoove for Rasheed Wallace when they made their championship run). Star players are rarely if ever going to be acquired in such a way. The Knicks have a core that, flawed as it is, has a chance of contending at some point in the future. (I don’t think they can win a title building around Melo and Amare, but they can certainly make it to multiple conference finals, which is a place the Hawks have never been). Barring Jeff Teague developing into an All Star, the Hawks are not going to make it to a conference finals with this core.

ToeKnee

June 8th, 2011
3:49 pm

MC, just wanted to say thanks for continuing to find interesting topics to write about for the Hawks. I’ll continue to read anything you post, and just glad that there’s still hawk talk for us diehards.In your opinion do the Hawks absolutely need to try to make that kind of superstar trade, is that the only way you see them conceivably getting farther? I understand only Detroit has really done it without one, but if the playoffs this year were an indicator to me, it’s that you never quite know what to expect from your conference each year, matchups, who you’ll face, and while the Heat and Bulls still seem better than us I’m not so sure Boston is any more once they lost Perkins and Orlando seems a mess and will probably lose Dwight eventually. Also, Boozer is going to be a bad contract for the Bulls very soon. The more I think about trading Josh, I wanted to right after our postseason ended, I keep coming back to the line of thought that, if we’ve already stuck with these guys for so long, is it really that bad of an idea to continue to make not-so-major moves like the Hinrich trade, and continue to hope that Marvin,Josh, Al, and Teague continue to progress? I’m 24 myself and it is still hard to believe Marvin is the same age. Why is it that I still think Marvin could get better? Is that an absolutely absurd thought, or do you see that possibilty, however miniscule the probability. (flashback to dumb and dumber: so you’re sayin ive got a chance!!!)

If you had to predict the rest of Marvins career, how would you see it playing out? Is the best already over? (which would cement him as the strangest ‘bust’ of all time- start for four years and get progressively worse after your second year. and be in decline by the age of 24!!that sentence just seemed insane to type, but i feel it might be true)

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
3:53 pm

My bad Dallas made it to a 2nd round.

Dallas has a head coach [far] better than Larry Drew, an assistant who used to be a head coach [for the Hawks], and another assistant who any team without a coach has interviewed.

All we have is a lame duck coach and unheard-of assistants who have never been contacted about a head coaching job.

I hope Rick Stunk realizes he got a 1 year extension so he and LD can go out the door next June 30 and the ASG will hopefully sell this team (ARE THEY GOING TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON OUR PAYROLL NOW OR WHAT?)

FIRE SUND
FIRE LD
FIRE WOODY

joey1

June 8th, 2011
4:20 pm

micheal, i think the hawks should trafe horford for bogut staright up and trade marvin for a 1st or secound round pick… what do you think

djbrough

June 8th, 2011
4:29 pm

Both Billups and Wallace were 2nd Team All NBA in 06. the hawks currently don’t have THAT on this roster. Detroit was more than a team full of role players. they had clutch, hard-working starts with loads of BBIQ and a coach who understood how to get the best out of them. They also had a GM who understood what level of talent it takes to win championships, because he won one as a player.
I’m a homer, but we are NOT built like Detroit. they had more talent, grittiness, and intelligence from top to bottom. We still have a ways to go. I just get offended when GM’s make statements that they just expect the fans to blindly accept. I love the hawks, but I’m not disillusioned. They are not a Championship team in their current form. We need some vets that can still pay meaningful, solid minutes; and we need a coach with a proven system and a better idea of managing and cultivating talent. NO MORE FIRST TIMERS! go back and get Fratello. He’s a Hubie Brown clone.

ILL-Logical

June 8th, 2011
4:38 pm

@MC
Welcome back- thought for a minute there you had pulled a Seko on us.
To the topic at hand. No, not only is the Detroit model management is so fond of quoting flawed; these guys are not even following it! Those Pistons focused on defense. As a team effort and to the detriment of their individual stats. The Hawks? Not so much.

Booo!

June 8th, 2011
4:39 pm

Smh @ Marvin -_-

I doubt we can trade him now (it’s not like we had much of a chance before this either).

Marv Needs to loose that weight (Think: marv’s rookie season) as it doesn’t seem to be good for his back or his game. He also needs to work on his core.

http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/Marvin_Injury_122910.html

^ I knew this wasn’t over. I just knew it.

GT Alum

June 8th, 2011
4:50 pm

MC, surprised no one has jumped on JJ’s comment about playing in Europe yet.

Oh, and I don’t think you need to apologize for bringing up the Mutombo trade. The Hawks were already in the toilet at that point, and he only averaged 30+ mpg for one year following that trade. The Smitty trade was the one that dismantled the Hawks of the 90s. And that team might have been on the road to perdition anyway, given the Crawford and Henderson contracts that became albatrosses for this organization.

Booo!

June 8th, 2011
4:51 pm

In 2004 Detroit had a bench : Mhemet Okur, Corliss Williamson ,Mike James, Lindsey Hunter, Elden Cambell, Darvin Ham.

I know they had more for that title run but, those are just the first few that come to mind. We BARELY have three people coming off of our bench….2 1/2 most nights.

Look at Dallas, They got Caron Butler and Roddy Boubious in suits and they’re STILL loaded. The ASG has failed to get us quality depth and until we get it, i’m cool with riding this “Big 3″ of ours. It’s not their fault.

If you don’t have true superstars on your roster, you need WAVES of GOOD players (Very Good starters and Good bench players) in order to compete for a title.

Booo!

June 8th, 2011
5:00 pm

As it stands “right now” we have three legit GOOD bench players: Kirk Hinrich, Jamal Crawford, and Zaza Pachulia. We need a Good to Very Good SF and PF off the bench.

We also need a Very Good starting center (heh, good luck with that Rick)

Booo!

June 8th, 2011
5:07 pm

Note:

Superstar > Very Good > Good

Nate D

June 8th, 2011
5:22 pm

I like LD as our coach hes actually pretty good. sund needs to be fired but a trade that we need to make is Kirk Hinrich or Jamal Crawford either way and josh smith for Ron artest and Andrew Bynum. Horford and Bynum will be a big post. You keep hinrich or jamal for 6th man and teague starts. also Artest might be better in Drew offense than the triangle.

Nate D

June 8th, 2011
5:23 pm

Also by the way if Marvin doesnt play to his potential even off the bench which he will play next year if this happens let pape sy take marvins place.

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
5:51 pm

What weight does Marvin need to lose? He looks like a twig with chicken legs

Rod from College Park

June 8th, 2011
5:54 pm

Marvin’s game is terrible, and he is an injury waiting to happen. If I were the Hawks, I would try my best to trade or give him away for anything. He will end up being another Speedy Claxton. A 6′9 forward with back problems who has balance problems, and falls as much as he does is bad news. They need to up the insurance policy on him, because he won’t make it to the end of that contract. He will be walking like Fred Sanford in the next 2 years.

joey1

June 8th, 2011
5:56 pm

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
6:02 pm

What the hell has Marvin been doing the last month that he couldn’t get surgery a month sooner?

Grandmaster JeJe

June 8th, 2011
6:05 pm

All Sund ever does is make idiotic comparisons.

Comparing this pathetic gutless roster to a team that’s in the NBA Finals?

He says we’re like the Pistons….NO. THEY WON A RING AND WENT TO THE ECF A THOUSAND TIMES. WE GET EMBARRASSED IN RD 2 EVERY YEAR

O'Brien

June 8th, 2011
6:32 pm

Rod,

Marvin was drafted in 2005.

In 2006, he missed 18 games. In 2008, he missed 21 games (I think he had a back injury). But what does Rick Sund do?

Not only does he sign him to a 5 year deal, but he also did not let Marvin test the market, which led to him overpaying. All this despite Marvin missing over 20% of the season in 2 of his 4 seasons.

Way to go Rick Sund. Did you ever think Marvin might be injury prone? Oh by the way Marvin missed 17 games this year. And this is the guy who wants to make the moves necessary to emulate the Detroit model? I’m not holding my breath.

O'Brien

June 8th, 2011
6:34 pm

MC,

I would rather be the GM of the Knicks. Not only do they have 2 superstar talents, but they also have an owner who will spend whatever it takes to bring players in.

Also, the Knicks are very relevant in NY (even when they suck), and with Amare and Melo, players who dont make it to Miami, NY, Boston or Chicago will take the vet min to go play in NY. Who wants to take a pay cut to come play for ATL?

I remember JJ’s agent saying his client would help recruit other players to come play in ATL. I wonder if JJ is the one who made the phone call to Josh Powell.

superiorblogman

June 8th, 2011
6:40 pm

Welcome back MC. I know I am probably the last person you are expecting this to come from but I missed you man. Hope to see the list of draft prospects they have coming in soon. Lastly, I disagree with the thought of Monta being sixth man. He is a borderline all-star just like Josh Smith, but I think Monta has the ability to do what he does well every game unlike Josh. Josh just does not know how to play his game against any player or does not have the ability to do it against everyone. The following trade would leave us with a better more stable team.

Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, and Zaza to Golden State for Monta Ellis and Biedrins. I would not push too much but if we could get them to send us Dorell Wright or a draft pick along this would be great.

Tyce

June 8th, 2011
7:43 pm

As I diehard Pistons fan and native Detroiter, I find this article and premise totally laughable. It’s AMAZING to me how “cookie cutter” most organizations in sports (not just basketball) are. I don’t agree with the “SUPERSTAR” model because the if it was required then how did the Houston teams of the 90’s, the 99 Spurs team and SURPRISE the BULLS win? If you think Scottie Pippen is a superstar despite being a great role player during his Chicago tenure, just ask Houston and Portland what they thought of their investment in him.

That said, what the Pistons were was a team where you had guys who COULD if needed score when they need to and be hard to stop (Rip, Chauncey and Sheed). The “MEDIA” keeps tossing out this “2 superstars” theory because they need succinct summaries to explain things. Ok, so why didn’t the 2004 Lakers work?? Oh the, “they were OLD” excuse. Why didn’t Boston repeat?? Ok, if you say Garnett was injured in ‘09 what about last year?? A certain NON SUPERSTAR (Kendrick Perkins) was missing was he not when it counted.

What you need more of and whats HARD is good chemistry and guys that can create their own shots when it counts along with defend. Thats a very hard combination to find and ALL the teams I mentioned had it. Miami hasn’t won YET and this is where this THEORY of “SUPERSTARS” is coming from. If you’re a team without those “superstar trinkets”should you QUIT out the gate as the premise is suggesting??

The Hawks are missing a consistent 2nd scoring threat outside of Johnson. If Josh Smith can play like a big and not a wannabee guard then maybe you’d have more of a defensive presence. That said, lets get rid of this cookie cutter “SUPERSTAR” theory because if Miami happens to lose, will we conclude that former Hawk Jason Terry is a Superstar?? I doubt it

Ra'mon

June 8th, 2011
7:43 pm

Check Monta’s numbers against the Hawks the last two seasons, and your number one reason to trade for him is already dismissed. Monta is nothing but a volume shooter in a high tempo offense. Why do you think Jerry West is wanting to trade him? With the exception of P. Gasol (who I think West was trying to help out the LAL), who has West traded that went on to dominate elsewhere?

Fundamentals

June 8th, 2011
7:54 pm

Tyce, amen to solid roles for solid players winning at a TEAM game. We have excellent talent, they just don’t know their roles and don’t play their strengths. We need to win without concern to whom goes the credit. I know that’s a novel idea for any forum these days, but it’ true.

It was not a bad pick

June 8th, 2011
7:56 pm

@MC

Just go ahead and say it!..You don’t like Marvin’s game..Fair enough , but you were not here when the hawks went to him and he averaged 14ppg for three straight years!..you came when his shots were cut in half due to Jamal and the Hawks quit going to him! Everytime i hear another coach or announcer talking about Marvin, they mention how the Hawks have refused to use him and love wasting high picks, by Not going to them or .Playing them out of position…THE BULLS COACH CALLED MARVIN THE MOST UNDERATED PLAYER IN THE NBA..no hating, but i trust his opinion over anyone on here and being honest yours too! Due to the fact you are a beat writer and he was coach of the year last year and has rings!

Grandmaster JeJe
“Sund also claimed Joe has been to the 2nd round 3 teams and listed players who haven’t been that many times, COMPLETELY neglecting to mention that CP3 and Melo have been to the WCF LOL”

CP has never made it out of the second round!..stop lying!

Najeh Davenpoop

June 8th, 2011
7:56 pm

“I don’t agree with the “SUPERSTAR” model because the if it was required then how did the Houston teams of the 90’s, the 99 Spurs team and SURPRISE the BULLS win? ”

Hakeem Olajuwon is not a superstar? Tim Duncan is not a superstar?

“That said, lets get rid of this cookie cutter “SUPERSTAR” theory because if Miami happens to lose, will we conclude that former Hawk Jason Terry is a Superstar??”

Dirk Nowitzki is not a superstar?

“Ok, so why didn’t the 2004 Lakers work?? Oh the, “they were OLD” excuse. Why didn’t Boston repeat?? Ok, if you say Garnett was injured in ‘09 what about last year?? A certain NON SUPERSTAR (Kendrick Perkins) was missing was he not when it counted.”

I don’t think anyone is making the point that a) role players don’t matter or b) every team with multiple superstars is going to win titles. If that was the case the Knicks would have made it at least as far as the conference finals this year. But that ‘04 Pistons team, as good as it was, is the ONLY team in the history of the NBA that has won a title without at least one superstar. The reason the “Detroit model” comes up when talking about the Hawks is that the Hawks, like those Pistons, don’t have a superstar either, which means the only way Sund and the DASG can sell this team as a championship contender to the fans is to talk about the ‘04 Pistons.

The thing is, even if Miami doesn’t win this year — or ever — they have still already made it farther than the Hawks EVER HAVE IN THE HISTORY OF THIS FRANCHISE. I can say with certainty that even if Miss Cleo were to tell me right now that Miami will never win a title as currently constructed, I’d still swap the Hawks’ roster for the Heat roster in a heartbeat.

Floze

June 8th, 2011
8:00 pm

New York has an expiring max contract in Chauncey Billups that will get a great player

Najeh Davenpoop

June 8th, 2011
8:10 pm

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/nba-finals-score-big-971114.html

ABC’s coverage of the first four games of the Miami Heat-Dallas Mavericks series has drawn a 12.9 rating in the metro Atlanta TV market, meaning 12.9 percent of the area’s TV households have tuned in on average.

The local ratings were 11.8 for Game 1, 12.8 for Games 2 and 3 and 14.3 for Game 4.

By comparison, the Sunday and Tuesday Braves games, which aired partly overlapping the NBA, drew Atlanta ratings of 3.4 and 3.1 on ESPN and SportSouth, respectively. The first three games of the NHL finals between the Boston Bruins and Vancouver Canucks drew Atlanta ratings of 1.3, 0.6 and 0.3 — the first two games on NBC and the third on Versus.

I wonder what the highest rated Hawks games were on local TV. Probably nowhere near that high.

In any case, this is just more evidence that contrary to the national media narrative, ATL does have plenty of NBA fans. It’s just that those fans don’t necessarily see tickets to watch perennial second-round fodder get blown out at home as a wise investment.

Paddy

June 8th, 2011
8:16 pm

Michael……also missing from your equation is the lack of funds by the ASG to make a bold super-star move. This group has been behind the 8-ball since day one. When you want to dump everything just as you buy it, lacks dedication to building a winning franchise. We have been told they are cash poor and have little or no interest in the fans. It won’t be long before NOBODY cares about the Hawks. The ASG sure does not care! Why should we?

Tyce

June 8th, 2011
8:18 pm

Najeh , Superstar”S” plural ok??

Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, Mario Ellie and Clyde Drexler (coming off his prime) were NOT superstars at the time.

David Robinson was on the decline in ‘99 and definitely the ‘03. Those teams won without MULTIPLE Superstars which is the prevailing theory thats being floated.

Tyce

June 8th, 2011
8:25 pm

Let me go on a slight tangent here for a bit. This is the 1st NBA finals where neither team has a solid post threat. IMO this is more of a product of the “modern” NBA skill set than something thats unique to these teams (not saying there aren’t good post players left in the NBA). Again MORE than so called “SUPERSTAR(s)” theory, whats needed more is a LOW POST THREAT who can not only score when its needed but also DRAW fouls on the other teams better players.

Even the ‘04 Pistons had this with Corliss Williamson (and when he was traded so where their future chances of success which is why they went through scoring droughts). That said, I’ve always Liked the Hawks talent but could you imagine if say whipping boy MARV were gone and there were someone else in the blocks who could get points from the post and rebound? That would clearly be a HUGE difference maker.

As far as swapping the Heat’s roster, thats a personal preference. If the HEAT lose. Actually win or lose for future year they are IN TROUBLE. How long do you think Wade, James and Bosh can keep logging 40+ minutes?? Bibby can clear out his locker after the end of the season. They have NO ROOM to make moves, no draft picks. They’re going to have to hope that vets will WANT to play for league minimums and trust me on this.

The league is gonna put some type of HARD cap in place that players will be looking for MONEY as opposed to merely joining a roster. The Hawks have flaws but their primary guys are still young (save for Joe but he still has prime years left). A couple of moves and god forbid a LOW POST threat and I can see better things for them.

Najeh Davenpoop

June 8th, 2011
8:38 pm

“Those teams won without MULTIPLE Superstars which is the prevailing theory thats being floated.”

That’s fair. But they did have one superstar. The point MC and most of us on this blog make is that the Hawks have zero superstars, and historically the only precedent for a superstar-less team winning the title is the ‘04 Pistons. That’s not to say that the ‘04 Pistons model can’t be replicated, but using a blueprint that has only worked once in the history of the league doesn’t give you a very high probability of success.

Tyce

June 8th, 2011
8:41 pm

First off great discussion. I’m happy I moved here. That said, all I’m saying is that if you’re a team that doesn’t HAVE a superstar, do you fold your chair??? Like in life, you have to deal with the cards your dealt.

Teams like New York are mortgaging their future on someone that plays one way. A scoring SAVANT but can’t defend. I personally don’t think the Hawks should have given Joe SOO much money but I do think the dude is lights out as a shooter. I”m personally not sold on MARV and if there are takers, I’d look to move him. If he blows up so be it. I’d be curious from you all to hear whats the diferences between Drew’s and Woodson’s systems are and did the coaching change help things.