Atlanta Hawks: About that backcourt . . ..
My story the other day included the line: “[P]laying Teague more minutes, especially in combination with Hinrich, would improve the defense.”
If the Hawks started that backcourt next season, it would finally signal they are serious about defense. Teague and Hinrich had developed a good defensive chemistry, with Teague as the relentless ball hound and Hinrich as the tough guy shedding screens and challenging shots. And that alignment moves J.J. to the 3, mitigating two of his main defensive weaknesses: containing quicker opponents and chasing anyone through screens.
Using Teague and Hinrich in combination could have benefits for the offense, too, which presumably means there’s a better chance L.D. would do it. Hinrich is a shot-maker who doesn’t need screens to get good looks. Teague showed against the Bulls that he’s capable of getting into the lane and making runners and floaters or setting up cutting teammates (at least when they did cut–watching Dallas last night reminded me of what that’s supposed to look like).
With Teague and Hinrich handling the ball the majority of the time instead of J.J., the Hawks would have a new, dynamic look (assuming fourth quarters aren’t still allowed to always become Iso-Joe shows). Remember when Teague said this regarding playing alongside Hinrich?
“It’s a lot easier. Defensively, you know he’s going to have your help and I am going to have his back. He’s easy to play with. He passes the ball and gets everybody involved. It makes your job a lot easier when you know a guy is willing to give up the ball. He’s a good player.”
In addition, a starting alignment of Teague-Hinrich-J.J. sends Marvin to the bench, where it’s become increasingly clear he belongs and where he might be a better fit, anyway. But there also is one major problem with using the Teague-Hinrich-J.J. alignment on a regular basis: It sends Marvin to the bench. (It also would leave the bench thin on scoring without Jamal, but that’s a topic for another time.)
Marvin, for all his faults, is a pretty good rebounder–his total rebound rate of 10.1 ranked 21st among small forwards who played at least 10 minutes per game, according to Hoopdata. (EDIT: Marvin bottom five in rebounding-rate differential this season. It could cancel out whatever defensive gains are provided by the Teague-Hinrich backcourt because, as the Hawks saw time and time against the Bulls, good defensive effort can go for naught if the opponent is rebounding too many of its misses.
J.J.’s lack of rebounding production looks worse when you compare his strong, 6-7, 240-plus pound frame to those of some of the better rebounders in the league. Guys like Melo (6-8, 230), Mike Miller (6-8, 220), Q-Rich (6-6, 230), Matt Barnes(6-7, 225), Ronnie Brewer (6-7, 230) and so on lack J.J’s physical gifts but are much better on the boards.
How is it that J.J. could push around J-Rich when he wanted to get to his spots on the floor but J-Rich (6-6, 225) is a much better rebounder?
It takes more than brawn to rebound–instincts, awareness, toughness, technique (blocking out) and persistence are also high on the list of desirable attributes. Plus, a lot of the guys who are good rebounders don’t shoulder nearly the same scoring burden as J.J.
But you’d think a guy with J.J.’s size and strength could be better if he focused on rebounding. He was right when he said the Hawks could use more guys to do the dirty work. It’s also true that the Hawks would be a better team, with a potentially better lineup, if J.J. pitched in on that effort.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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406 comments Add your comment
Sherewshevsky
May 24th, 2011
2:04 pm
Assumes Josh is gone? And we get a rebounder, shot blocking center? Good luck.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:10 pm
@Sherewshevsky: “Assumes Josh is gone? And we get a rebounder, shot blocking center? Good luck.”
no, not assuming that. Al and Josh are good rebounders. Zaza and Marvin are pretty good. after that there’s really no one.
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:11 pm
MC,
Is there any fire to the smoke of the rumor of a Smoove for Bynum deal?
Thanks in Advance
lea
May 24th, 2011
2:14 pm
there is no rumor about Smoove for Bynum
Marcus
May 24th, 2011
2:16 pm
MC,
as far as my request the other day (”cherry-pick players to make Hawks better…”), I think your subsequent blog “5 positive signs for next year” (or similarly titled) answered the question, esp. Item No. 2 about getting some scrappers/dirty work guys.
My initial thought was that, keeping the ATL guys whose existing contracts/importance to the team most likely wont result in a trade (Al, JJ, Hinrich, and possibly Smoove) which current NBA players are the best available fit as the “missing pieces” for what ails us.
You can toss in a trade for Marvin if his departure brings back a meaningful player who fits what we need.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:18 pm
@Jay: “MC, Is there any fire to the smoke of the rumor of a Smoove for Bynum deal? Thanks in Advance”
no. . . . as far as i can tell, that came from speculation on a fan blog.
Jay
May 24th, 2011
2:21 pm
Thanks MC, long off season coming
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
2:26 pm
Joe can rebound and would have more opportunity if he were consistently at the 3. It’s hard to block out when you’re playing on the perimeter. The real question if you move Joe to SF, what happens with the whole “getting an impact center”? What happens to Josh and Al who are both left at PF?
Joe needs to be the leader and outwardly say “WE NEED to do the dirty work, and WE WILL” and alot of our problems are solved.
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
2:27 pm
Is Gladyr coming over for summer league & preseason action?
Marcus
May 24th, 2011
2:27 pm
Given our $$$ constraints (a new CBA nothwithstanding) and their collective lack of contributions, I would expect Hilton, Josh P., and Etan to get some walking papers.
The mini-bench mob (too nice for mob, maybe glee club): J. Collins is still serviceable in spots, D. Wilkins fits a role, and I suspect the Hawks brass want to see if Magnum Rolle can contribute or if his name is tougher than his game. Same with Pape Sy.
Can we trade more of the rights we have to some of those international players for 2nd round picks or some compensation to get better depth?
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:28 pm
@Jay: “Thanks MC, long off season coming”
no kidding. this CBA thing is driving me crazy. to be honest, i’m having a hard time coming up with stuff to write because no one knows what the new rules will look like. i went down the list of free agents and wondered who the Hawks might be able to afford, but hard to do that when i don’t know if there will be exceptions, how much they will be worth, the luxury tax level, etc.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:33 pm
@Marcus: “My initial thought was that, keeping the ATL guys whose existing contracts/importance to the team most likely wont result in a trade (Al, JJ, Hinrich, and possibly Smoove) which current NBA players are the best available fit as the “missing pieces” for what ails us.”
i’d say three major things that ail the Hawks as presently constructed are an over-reliance on jump shots, rebounding and toughness. looking at the list of FAs for guys who might realistically be signed for cheap, a guy who could help with those is Kirilenko. he gets to the line, gets blocks and steals, and rebounds almost as well as Marvin. he comes with lots of injury risk but guys available for cheap are going to have some downside.
Battier is another interesting guy but i suspect he will be able to get more cash, assuming such a thing is possible for a player like him under the new rules.
LionHearted
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
I have noticed that JJ isn’t a good rebounder. Rebounding is about effort and desire.
Joe should be embarrassed by how timid he is. I know he probably has the fall he had in PHX on his mind but still he can’t play scared all the time.
Magic Johnson
May 24th, 2011
2:35 pm
You forgot speed. Speed helps sometimes.
“J.J.’s lack of rebounding production looks worse when you compare his strong, 6-7, 240-plus pound frame to those of some of the better rebounders in the league. Guys like Melo (6-8, 230), Mike Miller (6-8, 220), Q-Rich (6-6, 230), Matt Barnes(6-7, 225), Ronnie Brewer (6-7, 230) and so on lack J.J’s physical gifts but are much better on the boards.”
Quentin Richardson: 6′6¼” (230+) 7′½ wingspan
Carmelo: 6′7.5″ (236) 7′0 wingspan
Jason Richardson: 6′5.75″ (213) 6′11½
Ronnie Brewer: 6′6.75 (223) 6′11¼ wingspan
Mike Miller: 6′ 7.5″ 6′ 9.5″
Joe Johnson: 6′8.25″ (240+) 6′9
Matt Barnes: 6′ 8″, (220+) 6′9″ wingspan
::::::::::
Joe Johnson is has strength and a fluid stroke but his lack of speed and arm length leads to less than stellar rebounding. Rebounding is not all about height.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:37 pm
@Fundamentals: “Joe can rebound and would have more opportunity if he were consistently at the 3. It’s hard to block out when you’re playing on the perimeter.”
maybe, but even when compared to his peers at shooting guard he doesn’t rate highly. at the 3, he (theoretically) would be facing better rebounders more nights than he did at the 2.
“The real question if you move Joe to SF, what happens with the whole “getting an impact center”? What happens to Josh and Al who are both left at PF?”
this is a problem. pretty much all the problems with roster balance come back to this. Al sounds more and more like he wants nothing to do with banging in the post. he looked like it, too, vs. Noah.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:37 pm
@Fundamentals: “Joe can rebound and would have more opportunity if he were consistently at the 3. It’s hard to block out when you’re playing on the perimeter.”
maybe, but even when compared to his peers at shooting guard he doesn’t rate highly. at the 3, he (theoretically) would be facing better rebounders more nights than he did at the 2.
“The real question if you move Joe to SF, what happens with the whole “getting an impact center”? What happens to Josh and Al who are both left at PF?”
this is a problem. pretty much all the problems with roster balance come back to this. Al sounds more and more like he wants nothing to do with banging in the post. he looked like it, too, vs. Noah.
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
2:37 pm
Ramon – when I called out the rebounding I’ll agree Josh and Al do their part at times, but Marvin doesn’t in terms of getting us a strong rebounding front court. Even adding Collins doesn’t help us control the boards as we need to. We never quite tested starting ZaZa to inspire him and allowing Collins to be a real back-up. Drew just never quite knew who to play and when consistently. He flopped between new ideas, new line ups and basically being Woodson all season. I think it did much to derail chemistry.
Here’s what we have available in our minimob:
Jamal – says he’d like to stay, but we all know $$ will prevent that.
Marvin – needs to be traded somewhere he can blossom.
Collins – serviceable big who needs minutes to stay in shape.
ZaZa – needs minutes to stay focussed. Dreams of a starting C role.
Sy – shows the “blue collar” effort and size we need at SG/SF.
Rolle – seems to have some upside as a SF/PF option.
Damien – can fill a niche here, but do we need him over slots?
Hilton – Can he develop into a serviceable backup? Seems possible.
Etan – wasn’t utilized, didn’t fit, sorry.
Josh P – wasn’t a good fit, showed promise and then fell off the wagon.
7 positions that will change or need resigning. Marvin/Smoove/Joe/Al to shop? Sund has options, but will the impending CBA and his slow nature leave us w/o options? Time will tell.
SteveW
May 24th, 2011
2:38 pm
One part of me says JJ would do well at the 3 – He has a 3’s body and skill set in many ways.
But another part of me struggles to take a 5 time All Star and move him full time to a new position.
I still like a BC rotation of Teague, Hinrich, and JJ. Hinrich can play 1 or 2, so he’s ideal.
Now if we could somehow get Prince, Battier, or maybe even Grant Hill (ancient, but had a good season) to play the 3, and move Marvin to the bench, I may feel more comfortable with a move like that. I may even try out a Mike Dunleavy.
I think the big winner this off season in the vet minimum sweepstakes is going to be the Heat. There are alot of potential vet min. guys that look to be very good this next season, and think the Heat will have them lined up to go to them.
1 guy I wish the Hawks would go after, but he’ll probably be to much is Barea. I think he would fit great here. But LD would be concerned about him being posted up or something and not play him.
South ga boy in the atl
May 24th, 2011
2:40 pm
This is exactly what I have been screaming for provided we trade Josh or Al. We can’t think we will go to the top with 2 power forwards (one of them very undisciplined) in the post. GET A CENTER ASG OR WHOEVER OWNS THE TEAM
SteveW
May 24th, 2011
2:41 pm
And if we had Chucky Hayes to back up Josh, that would be a good situation also in my opinion.
KevinM
May 24th, 2011
2:42 pm
MC, I gotta disagree here:
“Marvin, for all his faults, is a pretty good rebounder–his total rebound rate of 10.1 ranked 21st among small forwards who played at least 10 minutes per game, according to Hoopdata”
When you rank 21st, doesn’t that tell you that he is less than average?
No way that can be considered a very good rebounder as a SF?
Magic Johnson
May 24th, 2011
2:45 pm
“Al sounds more and more like he wants nothing to do with banging in the post.”
Brandon Bass and Ryan Anderson. Taj Gibson, Chris Bosh
And this is Atlanta’s future?
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
2:47 pm
Barea has enough tenacity to hold his own…unlike most of our players.
Joe/Hinrich/Teague backcourt leads more and more to LD choosing Hinrich over Teague and on to the same discussions as this year. Either go with the kid at the point and contruct the offense around his speed/penetration or go back to Woody ball or LD’s Motionless Offense.
Joe’s rebounding is a lack of toughness and desire, not physical gifts or skill. Dude can and will rebound in certain situations, but not always…kinda like Jamal’s defense. It’s amazing…when he wants to.
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
2:50 pm
Does Hoopdata figure in garbage time when many of these players are cleaning up their stats? It’s obvious who does and who doesn’t give the effort in certain areas on this team.
Blue Collar Dirty Work is not our strong suit.
MC – Yes, Al wants to be a pansy on the perimeter. He’s got his contract. He’s gradually getting away from the tough physical play that got him that contract. I love the elbow jumper, but it’s now 100% of his game instead of a new wrinkle in the arsenal. Dude’s gotta get back to what brough him to the forefront to begin with.
If Josh can actually play to his strengths he’ll be our only All Star next season. Joe & Al will wane to others if they don’t significantly improve their desire and skills over the summer. Josh has them, he’s just not smart enough to use them. He’s like a mechanic will a full set of tools using a butter knife to loosen a screw.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
2:58 pm
@KevinM: “When you rank 21st, doesn’t that tell you that he is less than average?
No way that can be considered a very good rebounder as a SF?”
well, that’s for guys who play 10+ minutes. as you play more minutes, it becomes harder to maintain that rate. for instance, if you limit it to SF who played at least 25 minutes, Marvin ranks ninth in rebounding rate.
but i can see why you question it. i probably should have used a better comparison.
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
3:04 pm
It’s obvious that Marvin has talent, that’s why he’s such a firestorm on this blog, but dude just doesn’t fit and it seems, since we can’t trade him we severely overpaid. What can we do MC? Give us some options?
Chris
May 24th, 2011
3:10 pm
Yea…what’s up with Sergiy Gladyr
JDK
May 24th, 2011
3:10 pm
MC : Putting aside the uncertainty of the CBA (yes, you can do it), do you believe the Hawks will make a major trade? Call it now, please.
Jon
May 24th, 2011
3:11 pm
Hello MC. Any word on the MRI results from Jeff Teague’s wrist last Tuesday?
Hawk n the Ham
May 24th, 2011
3:14 pm
@MC, if Teague and Kirk are both starters on the floor, they are the only point guards the team has. Who would the the 1st guard to come in off the bench? This is taking in consideration that Crawford is a goner…..
JoJo the Godfather
May 24th, 2011
3:15 pm
One thought as we all ponder and dream of trade proposals. Because Al just signed his contract, his returning trade value is only roughly $5.5M, which means any trade that involves Al will save us roughly $6.5M vs his 2011/2012 salary of $12M. So let’s say you want to trade Al to NJ for Brook Lopez, Damion James & a draft pick. It would work under the current trade rules, and we’d have $6M+ less in salary for next year.
Neki Ecko
May 24th, 2011
3:17 pm
Hey, MC
I hope that you feel alittle bit better.
First thing first, what is your feeling about the issues that is going on with the ASG and how that is going to translate to the Hawks since they will probably be the ones that get hit the hardest from this situation.
Besides it is very hard to gauge what the Hawks can do until the CBA (and know them, they probably sell the second round pick again for a Happy Meal) but I think we will have to traded somebody including Marvin to get better.
For that backcourt, it is really hard to gauge at this time because of the CBA and what we can do because of all that money tied up.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 24th, 2011
3:19 pm
@MC
you came from Miami, where the Heat wasted Beasly, a former #2 pick by playing him at pf, but have you ever seen a franchise draft two guys in the top 3 and waste both picks for two average at best players?..Al( playing a 6ft8 guy at center who is a pf and clearly better than the guy playing pf), Marvin( changing his game, making him a catch a shoot player for Joe Johnson)?
joey1
May 24th, 2011
3:32 pm
trading josh would be plain stupid…. we lose almost our whole defense… we need to trade marvin williams and horford for andrew bogut …then sign thad..young(formet gt player) for the small forward posititon..and sign a few hard nosed defenders and shooter to come off the bench…
imagaine.. teague,johnson, young, smith,bogut
bench – kirk,sign player,wilkins,sign player,zaza
Danny
May 24th, 2011
3:46 pm
Battier would be a great addition to this club if for no other reason than his mental toughness and leadership. Al is a PF – Smith is a great trade piece – as much as I like him he is the obvious choice to go, and you have to give up quality to get quality. As for Marvin…start a back court of JT, Kirk – trade JJ (like we could) and and start Marvin and AL at the forward spots. Then he might finally blossom. His game can’t coexist with JJ’s. It’s all a dream anyway…we’ll probably be doing this for the next 5 years.
Nathan
May 24th, 2011
3:47 pm
I sai d we should do this and people thought i an idiot(hawks for life and some one else.) Put Joe at the 3 Al at the 4 Trade Josh for Bynum( even though he did that play he will make this team take the next step).
Resign jamal and Trade Marvin for a draft pick to get some to replace Joe at the 3 in the future.
GT Alum
May 24th, 2011
3:48 pm
With regard to the five reasons for optimism article, especially the second point, the big problem is there’s caveats to those points for optimism.
As far as obtaining dirty work players, haven’t we been looking for those kind of guys for a while, especially guys on the frontline who can rebound and defend? And the best we’ve ended up with are guys like Etan and Powell, who, if they have much to offer, haven’t gotten a chance to show it on the floor. And Twin had some pretty miserable years for the Hawks before displaying some usefulness this year.
And you somewhat contradict yourself with your statements about being able to get cheap role players and possibly having to get players who can score in different ways. The Hawks need players who can put up significant points when the shots aren’t falling. Guys who are that good at getting to the basket or scoring in the paint don’t generally come cheap. For the Hawks to be good at scoring when shots aren’t falling without changing the core of this team, JJ’s going to need to be able to get to the basket and finish consistently, as well as post up when he’s got a smaller player on him, instead of always trying to beat him facing up. Also, Horford has to improve his post presence, regardless of whether he’s at PF or C, and Josh has to realize that he’s a far more dynamic player when he’s around the basket (which, given his recent statements, doesn’t seem imminent).
I still don’t see this team getting to the conference finals with this core if they don’t develop their games more.
Nathan
May 24th, 2011
3:49 pm
never mind abouut the 3 for the future we have Sy trade jamal and marvin and keep pachulia and sign with alot of money now a good backup PF,sg and PG.
STRETCH
May 24th, 2011
3:56 pm
I would love to see:
Teague
Hinrich
JJ
AHorford
Bynum or any legit C
Bench:
JJ Barea
McGrady/Sy
Williams/Wilkins
Hilton/Rolle
ZaZa/Collins
IceColdATLien
May 24th, 2011
3:57 pm
It’s really simple, folks. There isn’t a C available that’s worth giving up Smith. If Bynum became available (which he won’t), then there’s a possibility. Other than that we gotta face the fact that we should just hope to lose Jamal in a sign and trade to get another backup guard with quickness and maybe a serviceable backup C.
Here’s how we make some noise next year using what we already have… which is really the most plausible scenario (barring some crazy result of a new CBA): Start Jeff, Joe, Damian, Al, and Zaza with Kirk, Marvin, and Smith off the bench (not in that order). You start with a defensive mindset and team-focused play with clear roles 1 through 5.
Wilkins can always take the better of the opposing SG/SF, relieving Joe of some defensive work, and Zaza can start banging from the gate so Al doesn’t have to do so himself the entire game.
All of a sudden the bench looks like a strength instead of a weakness. Kirk can come in at either G spot. Marvin can come in with Jamal-like instructions to just gun without thinking (which is where Marv always runs into trouble with that confidence) and just hustle everywhere for 24 min/game. Smoove will still get starter’s minutes (35/game) but with specific instructions to evenly fill out the stat sheet and not worry so much about scoring. Twin does his “big-man thing” vs. Dwight et al, and we fill out the other positions as best as possible.
It’s not sexy or earth-shattering, but we’re not likely to get what we deserve for Smoove and these are the players we got. LD just needs to redeploy those assets so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
GT Alum
May 24th, 2011
4:02 pm
Marvin will be a 20 ppg scorer -
Marvin showed signs of progress up to 2008-09 while playing next to JJ, which is why he got his current contract. And even since then, he’s shown that he can have success when being aggressive and trying to get to the basket. He’s seriously regressed the past 2 years, though. The only explanation I can think of is, even though he only lost a few mins per game, the acquisition of Crawford somehow affected him.
However, complaining that JJ forces Marvin to be a spot-up shooter is about as valid as Josh’s complaining that the offense pulls him away from the basket and forces him to take jumpers. It does happen, but the bigger problem is that neither one of them consistently takes the initiative to attack the basket and maximizes their potential. Marvin sounds like he’s waiting for a coach to design an offense for him. If Marvin was willing to play the role that Chillz did for this team, he could be a valuable player. But he hasn’t shown that initiative.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:03 pm
Does anyone else find it dissapinting that Al has turned into Mr. softie? I mean, you got 6′7 Joel Anthony in the post snagging rebounds and blocking shots. You got guys like carl Landry and Chuck Hayes can get down in the paint and they’re like 6′5 at best. WTH is wrong with Al?
I think Dwight really took his manhood back in the 09-10′ playoffs Smh…
Fundamentals
May 24th, 2011
4:05 pm
Prediction of what we have signed next year and options:
PG – Teague/Hinrich/Sy
SG – Hinrich/Sy/Joe – maybe keep Damien add Gladyr
SF -Joe/Marvin/Josh – maybe keep Rolle
PF – Al/Josh – utlize Rolle?
C – ZaZa/Al – w/ possibly Collins and or Hilton or make a trade?
8 definites, plus Damien, Collins, Hilton takes us to 11 w/ 4 slots to fill. Gladyr, Rolle, Free Agent & Draft Pick?
We’ll lose Etan, Josh Powell – add PG & C prospect. Hopefully more, but get real. This is most likely our options moving forward.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:06 pm
Hawk n the Ham,
Thats why we should draft Shelvin Mack in the 2nd roud out of Butler.
oldmike
May 24th, 2011
4:12 pm
What we need to hope for is a change in ownership that brings an upgrade to the commitment to improving and winning. If the Bulls can do it with at best lesser parts – DRose notwithstanding – then why can’t we? It seems like we are cursed. Never had a number one pick. Never did a great job picking when we did. On and on. At least we didn’t trade away talent to make the playoffs for one player (who left right away) and then get swept like the Thrashers did.
Rod from College Park
May 24th, 2011
4:12 pm
During the playoffs this year, I heard LD say many times that we needed to attack the basket. In looking at the playoff stats, Josh had 67 free throw attempts for the playoffs. Our two All Stars Horford and Joe combined for 68 free throw attempts. Which guy is uncoachable? LOL
oldmike
May 24th, 2011
4:13 pm
even if mack is good he’ll die on the bench.
gadams
May 24th, 2011
4:17 pm
I hope the Hawks keep Josh Smith, he was great in the playoffs.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:21 pm
Rod,
Excellent point LOL
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:26 pm
I mean seriously, I didn’t see Al flex in front of the camera once during the playoffs(probably because he only dunked like twice in two rounds of postseason action). Not even Once! You KNOW it’s bad when when Al’s not Flexin’.
Veeeery un-Boss-Like. Al needs to stop listenin’ to Tito Horford and hit the weights. Don’t know where his heads at…
Trojan
May 24th, 2011
4:27 pm
Al is killing us with his becoming soft. A PF or a C can not be soft.
Elvin Hayes
May 24th, 2011
4:28 pm
Joe could be another Bobby Dandridge at the three spot. Do it, Larry.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:34 pm
I mean seriously, I didn’t see Al Flex in front of the camera once during these playoffs; Not even once! In two rounds of action! You KNOW it’s bad when Big Al’s not Flexin’
A vereery Un-Boss-Like performance from him this post-season. His head musta been in the clouds or somethin’. I think he needs to stop listening to Tito Horford and get big. Time for Al to hit the weights.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:34 pm
Oops Double-post, I thought the blog moster ate my first one lol.
Booo!
May 24th, 2011
4:44 pm
oldmike, Very true
Magic Johnson
May 24th, 2011
4:48 pm
“”Does anyone else find it dissapinting that Al has turned into Mr. softie? I mean, you got 6′7 Joel Anthony in the post snagging rebounds and blocking shots.”"
Joel Anthony is 6′9 with a reputed 7-foot-4 wingspan, that’s center territory. Al Horford by contrast has a 7′0.75 wingspan which is not good for defense when combined with his average height. By contrast Amare Stoudemire (who has also been called soft) has 1 more inch on his wingspan and measured the same vertical as Al.
Can you find a clip of Al blocking shots or repeatedly dunking on an elite center or power forward? Dwight? Bosh?
Horford simply does not have the tools to dominate the power forward position. It would be better if he was a shorter but more fluid shooter and compact weight with positional defense like Zach Randolph.
Unfortunately his offense comes from dunking on smaller players and pick and rolls. He is too slow to penetrate and draw contact and attempt a shot or beat even Ryan Anderson off the dribble.
Just looking at this draft’s PF (which is considered weak) Horford will never be a top power forward in the league.
“You got guys like Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes can get down in the paint and they’re like 6′5 at best. WTH is wrong with Al?”
Chuck Hayes is heavier and more compact than Al and can lock a defenders knees with his strength. Even so Hayes is a liability on offense.
Landry is 6′8.1/2 and is expectedly quicker to the hoop and more explosive around the hoop than Al. But he has a moderate wingspan for his position and is a terrible rebounder at less than 5 per game. His last game he had 2 boards in 34 minutes. Unacceptable and is not much of a defender neither.
I think Dwight really took his manhood back in the 09-10′ playoffs Smh…
Lebron
May 24th, 2011
4:51 pm
Horford did not “become” soft. He has always been a jump shooter who gets layups by hustling but is bothered by length. Always.
No one is buying this he “became” soft crud.
Veteran Fan
May 24th, 2011
4:53 pm
This is so simple it sings! What you are saying is that JJ has no motivation or desire to play defense or rebound! What does he do besides miss 3s? Trade him to NY or NJ for a #1, package it with our #1 and go after Fredette! Consistent scorer and good fundamental ballplayer! Trade Josh, Zaza and Marvin for Kevin Love and Darko! Darko, Horford, Love, Heinrich, and Teague works for me bigtime!!!!! With the money saved go after another big! PLEASE break up the CORE!
Harpie
May 24th, 2011
4:58 pm
The problem with Al is Larry Drew! His screwed -up “coaching” and his allowing Josh Smith to get away with playing like an idiot took Al’s heart away.
Lebron
May 24th, 2011
5:08 pm
Furthermore all power forwards have been called soft. They are tweeners stuck between the 3 and the 5. Most often they can’t guard centers and so they get that label.
Dirk, Pau, Bargnani, Stoudemire, Bosh etc.
Horford does not have the right combination to become a dominant power forward. He is David Lee with less coordination and the same defense.
Trade him for Bogut and Marvin Williams for Larry Sanders and Gooden. Add Hinrich for Salmons to allow Teague to start and help replace Crawford’s scoring off the bench.
Sign Thornton for firepower in $1-2 million backup wing.
You finally get a center who can match up with Dwight and anyone else in the league, replace the Marvin Williams inability to score close baskets and add probably the best bench scoring in Salmons and Pachulia and Al Thornton and Gooden who can defend and score better against backups.
add a pg and pick and rolls where Joe shoots off the ball and the screener (3/4/5) rolls and everyone else crashes and u can contend.
The equal opportunity offense with guys on every side will not work with this group. If you want to get some guys in foul trouble early by attacking ie Deng or Wade. Throw it into a big post option:
(lighter faster) Smith at the 3, Bogut at the 5, and Joe at the 2 and others cut through and sneak in for buckets when man’s head turns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ANablz86QA
It’s a simple game.
Smith when he had speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01sGzTPhiAA&
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:13 pm
@Jon: “Hello MC. Any word on the MRI results from Jeff Teague’s wrist last Tuesday?”
never got word back from the Hawks on that. will check again.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:13 pm
@JDK: “MC : Putting aside the uncertainty of the CBA (yes, you can do it), do you believe the Hawks will make a major trade? Call it now, please.”
ha . . . sorry, i really can’t. will there be trade exceptions? if not, then a team over the cap couldn’t make trades. or, maybe they can make trades but the matching rules will be different.
but even if there weren’t CBA chaos, how could i tell you if the Hawks will make a major trade? i’m sure they could make one right now if they were willing to accept less value in return.
KevinM
May 24th, 2011
5:14 pm
Heads up, Sund is in Minnesota with other GMs for the draft evaluations…
Jojo, your info makes too much logic to even think Sund would move Al. Now it has to be Josh if there is a major move to be made.
And I don’t see Jamal back unless Josh is gone and we can bring less back in cap penalties.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:16 pm
@Hawk n the Ham: ‘@MC, if Teague and Kirk are both starters on the floor, they are the only point guards the team has. Who would the the 1st guard to come in off the bench? This is taking in consideration that Crawford is a goner…..”
they would need another guard for sure. i don’t think it would have to be a point, though. the Hawks pretty much got by with basically one point guard all season since Teague wasn’t really in the rotation. maybe they could get by that way again as long as Teague or Hinrich were on the floor at all times?
Lebron
May 24th, 2011
5:16 pm
@Veteran Fan
“Darko, Horford, Love, Heinrich, and Teague works for me bigtime!!!!!”
who plays the 3? Hinrich or Love.
JJ is paid too much but that doesn’t mean you can give him away to another team and defend him with Hinrich and expect to win. That is if that team makes the playoffs.
Bogut+Sanders+236lbSmith+Johnson+Teague
Pachulia+Gooden+Al.Thornton+Ronnie.Price+JohnSalmons
This team could average 8 blocks between its frontcourt and make the ECF.
The Hawks need to move on from Al Horford his “white-collar” I fail but its okay because I do everything right needs to stop. Marvin Williams is toxic and Hinrich is a good contract but no other realistic trade in the league will solve the frontcourt problems.
He is not a defensive franchise big man, at the 4 or the 5.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:18 pm
@Neki Ecko; “Hey, MC
I hope that you feel alittle bit better.
“First thing first, what is your feeling about the issues that is going on with the ASG and how that is going to translate to the Hawks since they will probably be the ones that get hit the hardest from this situation.”
feeling fine, thanks . . . . i think if ASG sells the money-losing Thrashers it should only help. i don’t think it means they suddenly will be willing to spend into the tax, though.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:20 pm
@Marvin 20 ppg: “you came from Miami, where the Heat wasted Beasly, a former #2 pick by playing him at pf, but have you ever seen a franchise draft two guys in the top 3 and waste both picks for two average at best players?..Al( playing a 6ft8 guy at center who is a pf and clearly better than the guy playing pf), Marvin( changing his game, making him a catch a shoot player for Joe Johnson)?”
Al is average, at best?
KevinM
May 24th, 2011
5:22 pm
“A lot of the NBA’s big management names attended draft workouts at Target Center on Monday afternoon: Larry Bird, Mitch Kupchak, Rick Sund, John Hammond, Monty Willams, Avery Johnson and Flip Saunders all were there.”
IMO, the only time of year to be in Minnesota. No humidity and I’m sure there’s time for golf and listening to Bird stories.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:29 pm
@GT Alum: “As far as obtaining dirty work players, haven’t we been looking for those kind of guys for a while, especially guys on the frontline who can rebound and defend? And the best we’ve ended up with are guys like Etan and Powell, who, if they have much to offer, haven’t gotten a chance to show it on the floor. And Twin had some pretty miserable years for the Hawks before displaying some usefulness this year.”
man, this is a tough crowd for optimism.seriously, though, this is the truth. you have to find the right guys. i understand your skepticism about the Hawks’ ability to do it.
“And you somewhat contradict yourself with your statements about being able to get cheap role players and possibly having to get players who can score in different ways. The Hawks need players who can put up significant points when the shots aren’t falling. Guys who are that good at getting to the basket or scoring in the paint don’t generally come cheap.”
there are guys who can get to the line that come at a reasonable price–the Hawks were interested in one of them, Ramon Sessions. you can see some more guys like when you sort this list by FTA/FGA. it’s the same thing as with dirty work players: they aren’t plentiful at a good price, but they are out there. the Hawks just have to identify them and sell them on playing here.
The Game Has Changed
May 24th, 2011
5:30 pm
I dont think we need to try and dismantle the roster. Teague and Hinrich would make a good combo. But what would we do about a backup point guard? If we decided to resign Jamal I think we would be in good shape. Teague, Hinrich, Joe, Josh, Horford. and the bench Jamal, Wilkens, Williams, Powell, Collins. I think that would give up 55 wins next year. If everybody stays healthy
Back at it
May 24th, 2011
5:31 pm
Al horford made 3rd team all-nba..Nothing average about that..Dont make yourself look so foolish!
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:31 pm
@Booo: “Does anyone else find it dissapinting that Al has turned into Mr. softie? I mean, you got 6′7 Joel Anthony in the post snagging rebounds and blocking shots.”
everyone thought the Heat overpaid for Anthony but i’ve always liked him as a tough role player who plays bigger than his size.
GT Alum
May 24th, 2011
5:35 pm
@MC
Yeah, it’s just with the Hawks’ history filling out the roster, that just hasn’t seemed to be one of Sund’s strengths.
Michael Cunningham
May 24th, 2011
5:35 pm
@Lebron: FYI, if you put more than one link in your comment, the blog monster will usually eat it.
ILL-Logical
May 24th, 2011
5:43 pm
“If the Hawks started that backcourt next season, it would finally signal they are serious about defense”
An arguable point. While perimeter defense has not been a stong suite of the Hawks over the last few years and this combo promises a marked improvement, is it-this combo in the starting line up- enough to overcome the lack of interior D that will result with the proposed line up of Joe and AS-oops APA in the front court? Further, I for one want to see a larger sample before M-V-Teague is annointed as the solution to the Hawk’s point guard problem.Seriously,if winning a championship(s) is the goal ,Captain Kirk is not the answer either.
I know that we are trying to stay within the reality of the Spirit Group but come on; these are the folks that annointed Joe as the savior and APA as the second coming.
Marcus
May 24th, 2011
5:44 pm
man, I wish we had the $$$ to have pursued Amir Johnson and Ronnie Brewer last summer. That was my wish list…but given the contract he eventually got, Amir would have been overpaid as a backup PF.
Choosen1
May 24th, 2011
5:48 pm
Can some please answer this question for me???? Ok here goes. We as fan’s want to see a team with Great defense and that WOW factor in transition (Fastbreak) and then hold their on in the half court set. So my question is if you have Teague being the man who can make this possible then who should be he’s running mate Josh or Al at the the 4 and rember the 4 must play with heart and pride none of that soft Sh*t
Bob
May 24th, 2011
5:58 pm
Michael…good article and excellent insight; however, stop trying to spin Marvin. Being the 21st best rebounder among small forwards means that he is in the bottom third. The Hawks need to replace him with an upgrade, at least in the top 50%. Just my opinion.
I Heart Atlanta
May 24th, 2011
6:06 pm
Mc,
In your opinion who would win in a Smoove for Bynum Trade…?
I Personally Would Rather Trade Al For Bynum
Ryan
May 24th, 2011
6:06 pm
I say trade Al and keep Josh. Al is worth more but Josh has proven he will do more dirty work than al…..
GT Alum
May 24th, 2011
6:18 pm
Bob –
MC’s stat was among players who played at least 10 mins at SF, not among starters There’s 63 players who qualify under that criteria, meaning Marvin is in the top 3rd of that list. As Michael stated in a comment, if you look at SFs who played at least 25 minutes, Marvin’s 9th. There’s 33 in that list, so Marvin’s still in the top 3rd.
The Game Has Changed
May 24th, 2011
6:22 pm
We need to keep Josh and Al. Maybe try to give the Lakers Pachulia, Collins, and 3first rounds.
joey1
May 24th, 2011
6:23 pm
choosen , clearly josh smith on any given night he can have a 20point,10rebounds,7 assist, 3 steals 4 blocks, no doubt josh trys harder and is more physical than horford, if j smooth matures and plays around the basket we could contend for nba championships with the right type of teammates focues on defense and hard work
Jody
May 24th, 2011
6:23 pm
@ MC,
I think Al and Josh are good rebounders, but not against the teams with the bigger frontlines, which usually are the teams that matter (if you’re talking about being title contenders vs. the same old mediocrity). I like Al and Josh both, but if they return again as the starting 4-5 combination, this team will be headed for the same conclusion as the previous 4 years. As a main combination, they’re just too small against the elite teams. Also, taking into account that Al, for all his accomplishments at the 5, is really a 4 and wants to play there, it would seem something’s got to give. The status quo of keeping the “core” intact and signing “cheap” players to fill out the roster doesn’t cut it anymore. Trotting out practically the same roster year after year while expecting a different outcome is insane. That’s my take. I appreciate all your hard work sir.
Dwayne
May 24th, 2011
6:30 pm
MC,
I know it’s difficult to get this sort of information in the offseason, but I’d really like to know what Al’s position on posting up vs. playing on the perimeter is. Does Al just prefer to play on the perimeter more than he likes to bang inside in the post or is it Drew’s offense that has resulted in him playing more on the perimeter. Based upon observation, it seems like it’s a combination of both of these things. Personally, I hated the way that Josh and Al were used in Drew’s offense, particularly in the playoffs. Still, I don’t think the offense can be blamed fully for both of them migrating more toward the perimeter this season. At any rate, I’d just like to know what Al’s true preference is. I’m surprised to see him settling for jumpers more since he’s always been a physical player that doesn’t shy away from contact. I’ve followed him since he started out at UF and he’s always been a guy who seemed to welcome physical play and contact, That’s why I’m so surprised. Anyway, I get the feeling that even if he was asked where he’d rather play, I don’t feel like he’d give an honest answer. It was pretty clear during the regular season that he was unhappy about a lot of things with the team, but he never really expressed his feelings in a straight-forward fashion. You could always sort of read between the lines to see what he was saying though.
ant banks
May 24th, 2011
6:31 pm
DENNIS RODMAN made it to the h.o.f. by bein’ a damn good rebounder!!!! no way the bulls win 6 rings wit’out DENNIS bangin’ on the boards like that.
these guys doin’ ONE and DONE in college come into the league thinkin’ about scorin’. if you can average 11 boards/night you will have a long career in this league
KevinM
May 24th, 2011
6:38 pm
“The Game Has Changed
May 24th, 2011
5:30 pm
I dont think we need to try and dismantle the roster”
Not to shock you here, but we right now have 7 under contract. The rest of wide open. And the 7 we have do not give us enough ammunition to ‘compete’ for a ECF appearance. If things stay the same, we only have 6M for 7 slots…..and you know we aren’t going to have the same luxury tax level. Its only going down.
Now honestly, with the pack that we have as FAs, how many teams are coming to get these guys?
Collins/Sy/Damien/Sy – do you see anyone that is critical to retain?
You can get these guys at any time and the way it looks, we are going to have a minimum player roster.
Its the reality of it all. Our guys aren’t as coveted as you want them to be. We put a higher value on them than the league.
Remember Chills? How did that work out? You saw what we got for 2 #1s and Bibby? As I said yesterday, Sund really hasn’t done anyting significant since he has been here. He has just taken a ride and continued it course for 2nd round exits.
Does Sund know how to build a championship team? My opinion, if we don’t move a captain, we aren’t going to progress any further. Those numbers are a killer to the bottom line because Marvin takes up what fudge there might be going forward.
Ryan
May 24th, 2011
6:39 pm
I was a huge Al fan and I criticized Josh more than most. But Josh has shown he will play inside more than Al and that’s saying something….. Try to work a horford/Marvin for bogut trade imho
UGA
May 24th, 2011
6:46 pm
MC:
How does the trade exception the Hawks got for Josh Childress help? And don’t they have to use it by the end of June or it expires correct?
superiorblogman
May 24th, 2011
6:50 pm
Not a fan of the 3 guard lineup unless we get a 7fter that is a defensive beast and I doubt we get one. Our most sensible thing to do is trade Hinrich and his expiring for a upgrade to the team.
Hinrich, Zaza, trade exception and Marvin to the Clips for Mo Williams, Kaman, and Aminu
superiorblogman
May 24th, 2011
6:58 pm
Not a fan of the 3 guard lineup unless we get a 7fter that is a defensive beast and I doubt we get one. Our most sensible thing to do is trade Hinrich and his expiring for a upgrade to the team.
Hinrich, Zaza, trade exception and Marvin to the Clips for Mo Williams, Kaman, and Aminu
New lineup:
PG Teague/Mo Williams/Demetri McCamey
SG Joe/ Marcus Thorton (MLE)/Pape
SF Josh/Aminu/Damien
PF Al/Reggie Evans (MLE)/Chris Wilcox (Minimum salary)
C Kaman/Collins (Minimum)/Fesenko (Minimum salary)
superiorblogman
May 24th, 2011
6:59 pm
Not a fan of the 3 guard lineup unless we get a 7fter that is a defensive beast and I doubt we get one. Our most sensible thing to do is trade Hinrich and his expiring for a upgrade to the team.
Hinrich, Zaza, trade exception and Marvin to the Clips for Mo Williams, Kaman, and Aminu
New lineup:
PG Teague/Mo Williams/Demetri McCamey(Draft)
SG Joe/ Marcus Thorton (MLE)/Pape
SF Josh/Aminu/Damien
PF Al/Reggie Evans (MLE)/Chris Wilcox (Minimum salary)
C Kaman/Collins (Minimum)/Fesenko (Minimum salary)
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 24th, 2011
7:00 pm
@ MC
Ok, i wrote it wrong…I was asking have you ever seen a team draft two players in the top 3, only to have them defer to two average players..Al has not been able to play his natural position,pf, because of josh, and al is 20x the player of josh..Josh is 6ft7, Al is 6ft8, no way JOSH COULD HAVE EVER PLAYED CENTER IN THE NBA LIKE AL HAS..and Josh cannot play SF, he can’t shoot, he is a perfect 6th man, but he would probaly choke Drew out if he recomended it…..Marvin has been made a catch and shoot player due to joe having the ball all the time…he averaged 14ppg for 3 years in a row, while shooting 45% or better, and then came along jamal and his 1000 shots a year and the constant ball hoggin by joe Max..marvin simply is not a Josh Smith type of player that will jack up bad shots just to do it…
Najeh Davenpoop
May 24th, 2011
7:05 pm
“Al sounds more and more like he wants nothing to do with banging in the post.”
A power forward who doesn’t want to bang in the post is not doing his job.
Contrary to what Jeff Schultz and the people at Peachtree Hoops think, Al should not be untouchable when it comes to trade discussion.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 24th, 2011
7:14 pm
josh is 6ft7, Al is 6ft 8, i wonder why i hear no fans asking for josh to play center and bang all year long with guys bigger than him?
Najeh Davenpoop
May 24th, 2011
7:17 pm
If Al is really that averse to playing inside and playing physically, I wouldn’t even mind moving him to small forward and keeping Smoove at PF.
KevinM
May 24th, 2011
7:18 pm
I think of the 3 captains, Al is the least likely to be traded today because of his salary implications. We don’t get equal value in return for moving Al, unless it becomes high draft pick worthy….then we benefit long term.
But Joe’s contract will kill us more and more each year.
ag
May 24th, 2011
7:20 pm
I have posted all the great centers in the past that are the same size at Al who became good/great centers. The argument about facing banging centers is really there are not many in the league anymore. Al is an all-star at center, but I am sure he will be a good power forward – as exposed in the playoffs. Al needs to focus himself to be a center and dedicate this off season to improving.
I think we need to make a move for a draft pick by offering Marvin. That will clear some payroll.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 24th, 2011
7:22 pm
I like the Teague-Kirk-Joe-Smoove-Al lineup in some situations. But if the Hawks are going to roll with that, they need another guard off the bench (I’m operating under the assumption that Jamal is gone) and they need a big lineup on which they can fall back against bigger teams. Collins is a keeper and so is Zaza if he continues playing like he did in the second half of the season, but both are probably better suited to bench roles, and I’d prefer the Hawks find a DeAndre Jordan-like center to plug in to the starting lineup in those situations.
So in other words, if they are going to roll with the three-guard base lineup, they probably need to add two quality rotation players to the bench. Even if they are able to get something valuable in exchange for Marvin (whose time in ATL hopefully is up), that seems doubtful.
O'Brien
May 24th, 2011
8:00 pm
MC,
the Hawks pretty much got by with basically one point guard all season since Teague wasn’t really in the rotation..
Bibby was barely “half a PG” since January, and Teague still got no playing time.
vava74
May 24th, 2011
8:02 pm
Najeh,
The 3 guard rotation implies, IMO, that either Teague or Hinrich will be quickly pulled for a breather depending on match ups and production with JJ sliding to SG and Marving (or Wilkins) coming in at the SF slot.
For me, it would work fine with Sy being the 4th back court wheel. He seems to have enough handles to give us spot minutes and he looks veeeery quick and agile for his size.
O'Brien
May 24th, 2011
8:08 pm
In the playoffs, Marvin played 216 minutes, and he only had 27 rebounds (1 rebound every 8 minutes). Unacceptable.
That being said, his regular season rebounding total might have been better if the starting Center and starting PF weren’t averaging 18 rebounds per game.
That being said, Marvin is way overpaid. And Rick deserves alot of the blame for giving him a 5 year deal at the salary he did without even letting him test the market.
vava74
May 24th, 2011
8:13 pm
First of all, we should all get used to the fact that we will have the shortest possible roster due to cap restrictions.
The most likely trade to happen will involve Josh.
If no one is traded and we have to resort to bottom of the barrel filler, we can still be competitive with a very solid but short 7 men rotation based almost exclusively on:
Teague(PG) – Hinrich(SG/PG) – JJ(SF/SG) – Josh (PF/SF) – AL(C/PF)
Marvin(SF/PF/SG) – Zaza(C/PF)
then, giving us spot minutes:
Sy (PG/SG) – Wilkins (SG/SF) – Hilton (PF/C) – Collins (C) (who will almost certainly sign with someone else) – 2nd round pick (?)
That’s 12 guys.
The Heat and the Bulls will be a cut above everyone else. BOS and ORL are washed up as contenders.
NYK are what they are. PHI and IND will continue to be playoff contenders but lack experience and a few pieces. Also, Philly’s players will start to tune out Collins.
No one else looks to be improving next year. Nyets, Raptors, Bobcats, Washington will continue to be lottery bound and MIL’s roster has proven to be a mirage.
Basically, even if we don’t change a thing we will be #3 – #5 material.
The Game Has Changed
May 24th, 2011
8:15 pm
@KevinM-We might just have to pay the luxury tax. Thats up to the owners. But I just dont see us benefiting by rebuilding or making crazy trades. Joe is gonna show you he is worth every dime next year. lol Watch
O'Brien
May 24th, 2011
8:18 pm
Although the Hawks are missing players who are willing to do the dirty work, we are also lacking in leadership (despite the 3 captains). And it starts at the top. LD does not set a good example (imo), and he does not hold players accountable enough and JJ does not set a good enough example (in words and action).
Durant and OKC choked last night. Durant’s comments after the game?
“I feel upset because I let them down,” Durant said of the home crowd. “I let the city down.”.
Hmm…A star player taking responsibility. Imagine that. Compare that to “we could care less if they show up” and “I don’t get all of the glory when we win so I don’t get to take all the [blame] when we lose.”.
JANDREWS487
May 24th, 2011
8:21 pm
Hey MC:
What are your thoughts about Al?
I think he’s a 4, and I think he could flourish in the league with a banging 5 down low.
Blast
May 24th, 2011
8:25 pm
Dennis Rodman said it best, and people laughed at him. Rodman said rebounding was a science, when asked how he snagged all those rebounds, and he was right. I will explain why.
I played point in college, and I rebounded better than centers. How did this happen?
Rebounding is scientific in that it’s all about trajectory, angles and calculations. Even these days sitting in my living room, when a player releases a shot, lots of times I can tell if the ball will swish the net or clang off the rim or backboard. So by watching the balls trajectory, I can guess where the ball will hit, and if it’s a miss, I can calculate where the ball will ultimately end up at, so I’m usually the first to get to that spot, and claim that rebound. Calculation, timming, and speed is why I was able to rebound better than centers, and I am only 5′9 inches tall. Same calculations helped with snagging loose balls and steals also.
Rebounding is not always about taller, bigger and blocking out. It’s about heart, desire, hustle, science and a fierce will that says, “every loose ball is mine, and I am gonna claim it!”
A back court of Teague and Kirk would be superb!
Show some heart tonight, Bulls!!!!!!
Stupid Writer
May 24th, 2011
8:51 pm
The Hawks play as poorly as Michael Cunningham writes. Who the he!! are Smoove, JJ and LD? Here’s an idea: Josh, Drew and Johnson. Why don’t you focus on filling your space with solid content and stop trying to be hip, urban cool and write something we, the season ticket holders want to read?
ant banks
May 24th, 2011
9:27 pm
oh well, it looks like miami is goin’ to rep the east and may win their first ring together. if they do, the league is in trouble. lebron said that boston laid the blue print on how to get a ring, which they did A BIG 3. miami goes and comprise a BIG 3. D12 and chris paul may go to the same team creatin’ a series of SUPER TEAMS, boston, maimi, and where ever paul and d12 end up.
GOD help us all if D12 goes to chicago. HAWKS WILL NEVER HAVE A CHANCE
dap01
May 24th, 2011
10:22 pm
O’Brien: You hit the nail on the head. That would be a great basis for an article by MC.
ntrigue
May 24th, 2011
10:46 pm
Am I the only one but I hate the TEague Hinrich lineup I think Teague should startand hinrich come off the bench we need him to be a floor general with the sencond unit. Maybe at times during the game depending on different situations that will happen but for a regular rotation i dont see the benefit. I’ve always said that the second unit will be a lot better with Hinrich running it. Teague’s game is more fit to play with our starters style of game play. Oh and I look forward to seeing a healthy J Smoove catching oops and blocking shots all over the place. So people stop the trade Josh Smith rumors!!! We need to pick up a perimeter player that looks to slash and attack the basket first and plays tuff defense that can run with our 2nd unit. Lastly we need another Center that can play d and block shots we should’ve tried to get Tyson Chandler. Mc where is Tyrus Thomas at?
Tn Hawk
May 24th, 2011
10:54 pm
Does anyone think Marvin can play the 2? If so:
Lineups shown in order PG, SG, SF, PF, C
Starting Five Tall Lineup: Teague, Johnson, Pickup, Horford, Zaza for rebounds or Collins for Defense
Starting Five Regular Lineup: Teague, Johnson, Pickup, Smoove, Horford
Bench: Hinrich, Williams, Wilkins, Smoove, Zaza or Collins or Horford
All we need is a legit, tough SF.
SteveW
May 24th, 2011
11:59 pm
Well Chicago lost. Hope they can hold serve in Chicago Thursday night. Maybe this series isn’t over yet. They did take it into OT.
Haslem, and now Miller have really come on and saved the Heat. Get those two going with the Big 3, and they just might win it all. We’ll see.
SteveW
May 25th, 2011
12:04 am
I’m still rooting against the Heat. The Bulls looked ok, nothing great, but the Heat just have too much firepower right now.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2011
12:06 am
“For me, it would work fine with Sy being the 4th back court wheel. He seems to have enough handles to give us spot minutes and he looks veeeery quick and agile for his size.”
I don’t think the Hawks can realistically roll into next season expecting Pape Sy to play a meaningful role for them. I do think he has talent and can play in this league, but he has done nothing yet. Some people say that people like me are jumping the gun on Teague, but at least he started six games and played major minutes against the league’s best defense and was arguably the most consistent player on the floor, which to me is enough to negate the small sample size argument. Sy has only played in garbage time up to this point. He looked good in garbage time, and he should get every opportunity to move up the playing time ladder during summer league and preseason, but from a GM’s point of view it would be a bad move to pencil him into the rotation at this point in time.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2011
12:06 am
Give the Heat bench players props, but really this series just comes down to the fact that both teams are evenly matched defensively but the Heat have three scorers whereas the Bulls only have one. The Bulls’ D has to do a lot more to beat the Heat than the Heat D does to beat the Bulls.
The Mavs have the physicality the Bulls have, but the depth the Bulls don’t have. I hope they can pull off the series victory in the Finals. As far as I’m concerned both of these conference finals series are over. The Thunder are a young team and understandably are probably crushed after that Game 4 loss to the point where there’s no realistic way they can win 3 straight games. The Bulls are not quite as young but I think they probably realize at this point that they can’t score enough to beat Miami.
SteveW
May 25th, 2011
12:06 am
Vava74 – I wish I shared your optimism. Until LD shows me something in the regular season, I see a sub .500 year coming on. Hope I’m wrong.
Grandad
May 25th, 2011
12:07 am
Tn Hawk
No on Marv playing the [2].
Also noto Marv playing:
the {1], [3], [4], [5], 6th man,
or 7-15.
In other words Marv should be 16th man.
I’ll be even more blunt…we are only allowed to carry 15.
Marv needs to wear another uniform in another city.
But whatever team he ends up on, No, he cannot play the [2].
Marv needs training wheels to walk.
I’ll stop for now; but I’ve got more !
Grandad
May 25th, 2011
12:13 am
noto means no to in English.
the {1] should be [1}...not really...[1]
ILL-Logical
May 25th, 2011
12:17 am
For all of the Joe is untadeable alcolytes; I am willing to bet that a certain midwestern team would love to have a veteran ,proven scorer to take some of the pressure off of their super star point guard.
Wabe
May 25th, 2011
12:28 am
Good point about JJ on the boards. I just think this needs to be demanded more from JJ by coach.
Truth is, for a guy that’s 6-7 with the body JJ has as a 2-gaurd, he plays pretty soft. He could really line up at the 3 with no problem, but he still comes up soft. Sure, he can bang with guys on the block because he tends to have the size advantage. But, again, I just think he’s soft. His style of play is soft. He doesn’t draw whistles, he doesn’t grab boards, he’s too busy taking 20+ seconds off the shotclock to find his own shot when he’s controlling the rock and then he chucks up floaters in the lane. Nothing wrong with the floaters when they’re falling, and they tend to fall at a decent clip, but for a guy with JJ’s size, it’s amazing to see him constantly fall back to this floater. You wanna see the dude attack and draw contact. If JJ could get to the line half the times that most of these other “superstars” are getting to the line, maybe somewhere around 8-10 times a game, it’d up his output. I’m not asking him to be at the level of guys like we see that are still left in the playoffs – the LBJ’s/Wades/Dirks/Roses. He’ll never be that type of player or get that type of recognition. But, a more aggressive personality on the court would suit his game better. He’s got the size to do it, he’s got the talents to do it, he just doesn’t have the instincts/mentality to do it.
But it’d help the Hawks a lot if he did could bring some toughness to the table. He just doesn’t come off tough. Not drawing fouls makes one think he shys away from contact. Not grabbing boards at a higher clip again makes one think he shys away from contact. Might not be 100% accurate, but the numbers speak for themselves. He needs to up his physicality a bit out there. Up his aggressiveness.
bjrufino
May 25th, 2011
12:32 am
let’s sign nick young, he has to ability to replace the scoring punch that jamal provides, sign oden, trade josh for micheal beasly and wayne ellington
Horford is the Hawks problem
May 25th, 2011
12:38 am
Horford is the pink elephant on the Hawks roster. If Horford wants to cry about not wanting to play center, then he needs to score more points. Horford really needs to be a player than can score close to 20 points a night. For all the slack Josh Smith gets on his shot selection, he was the most efficient Hawks scorer from 2 pts in the playoffs. As a matter of fact only Lebron, DWade, Bosh, Leuol Dang and Derrick Rose was more efficient at scoring from 2 points in the playoffs with as many shots as Josh. Horford’s points production as historically slumped in the playoffs while Josh doesn’t. If Horford can’t figure out how to score with his back to the basket, what makes him such a good PF? And he couldn’t handle Boozer or Noah. If Josh can score 15-17 points a night in this current system, I wonder what he could do if Larry Drew actually design plays for him around the basket. The Hawks don’t need a center, they need another 20 point scorer to start alongside JJ. If you don’t believe me you should note the Bulls (supposedly best defense in the league) has lost every playoff game this season when the opposing team as 2 or more 20 point scorers.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2011
12:41 am
The Bulls would surely love to have Joe on their team, but they don’t have much in the way of valuable assets to offer the Hawks in return. They won’t give up Noah, and some combination of Asik/Gibson/Brewer/very late 1st round picks is nowhere near equal value.
dj dascorpian
May 25th, 2011
12:44 am
No one wants to be the guy who volunteers to do “dirty work” for sorry players, who don’t even have a heart to rebound. “Blue collar guys” just won’t cut it. That’s because they somehow knowing that a highly paid overrated player like J.J. espoused that kind of bull@3it. Who or what coach is going to make his tired arse hustle for loose balls. His contract is set. There has to be some sort of accountability.
VOL
May 25th, 2011
12:54 am
MC. Can or will the Hawks be players for Dwight Howard? Should they be? What would it take to get it done in your opinion?
Najeh Davenpoop
May 25th, 2011
1:02 am
Ask Orlando who they would want between Joe, Smoove, and Al, throw in five first round picks and Kirk’s expiring contract, and hope Chicago or LA doesn’t trump the Hawks’ offer.
Grandad
May 25th, 2011
1:03 am
Teague -&- Cap’n Kirk in the back-court,
Joe at the [3],
trade Al or Josh…..
on and on it goes.
We / Us / MC – included are trying to fit the proverbial
misshapen pegs into the woebegotten holes.
[woebegotten is not a real word, I just made it up]
(sounds real though…huh)
I’m convinced that our team needs these priorities to challenge
for a championship: (not necessarily in order)
(1) Owner[s] and GM which will promote a championship culture.
(2) A qualified coach
(3) Two -legit- 7 ftrs. [that are also legit players] *defenders*
(4) Players who rebound (the 7 ftrs hopefully)
and a commitment to rebounding,
plus, find one player who lives to rebound…[..Faried..] perhaps.
[5] Develop an attitude of toughness & a warrior mentality.
[6] Quoting MC; a single minded purpose of having a:
” Defense 1st Mentality ”
** Not a necessity but my supposition only;
would be to conduct a sweeping comprehensive search
for a trade partner or even a menage a trois with two teams
for the purpose of trading Joe.
Not Josh, not Al, but Joe;
and it really has nothing to do with his salary.
*** Try and get back into the 1st round.
Somewhere between 12 -&- 20 if possible.
Two picks if possible.
Singleton & Faried would go a long way toward reaching
the goals I set forth up above.
**** Trade Marv
***** Sign preferrably Ajinca / -&- / or / Hamady N’Diaye
I’m Done, G’nite !
Reddjonn68
May 25th, 2011
1:14 am
It has to be said, our guys are lazy & need a kick in the butt. Teague & Hinrich give 100 % when put on the floor, but I don’t kow if playing them together is the answer, the other Hawk players act like they are the Alanta Spirit ownership group…uninterested & lacidasical. JJ is a non factor as a leader & Smoove is in another world when it comes to teamwork.This team will never challenge the East contenders….Sund must go, start fresh & go with Teague as a starting block!
Worldwide Clyde
May 25th, 2011
1:24 am
DWade had more blocks at the 2 guard position than Al Horford.
Buddy Grizzard
May 25th, 2011
1:29 am
“If Josh can actually play to his strengths he’ll be our only All Star next season.” – Fundamentals
This.
I’d say it’s easy to imagine at this point that Joe Johnson will play out all 6 years of his current contract at $20m per season and not receive one single All-NBA vote for the entire duration. If All-NBA Al really refuses to play center, we may have seen his last All-NBA vote as well. He does not stand out nearly as much as a PF.
superiorblogman
May 25th, 2011
1:48 am
Teague/Kirk/Earl Watson (minimum)
Joe/Justin Holiday (draft)/Pape
Josh/Marvin/Damien
Al/Reggie Evans (MLE)/ Chris Wilcox (minimum)
Fesenko(minimum)/Zaza/Jason Collins (minimum)
Worst case scenario we still need a Center
Buddy Grizzard
May 25th, 2011
1:51 am
“Josh had 67 free throw attempts for the playoffs. Our two All Stars Horford and Joe combined for 68 free throw attempts. Which guy is uncoachable?” – Rod
Made me want to choke Shultz when I read that article. Josh will be an All-Star this year (quite possibly the Hawks’ only All-Star as Fundamentals said). Hopefully Josh learned his lesson about how things can change in the postseason. In the regular season, he had a better 3-point percentage than Joe. In the playoffs, Joe shot 42% from three while Josh’s percentage plunged to 12%.
Worldwide Clyde
May 25th, 2011
2:01 am
From Jeff Shultz article:
“Al Horford won’t be traded because he’s the team’s most consistent player.”
SHAKING MY GOT DAM HEAD
Worldwide Clyde
May 25th, 2011
2:03 am
Where was Horford during the Chicago series?
superiorblogman
May 25th, 2011
2:18 am
Yeah Grandad: I agree we should trade Joe.
Joe and Zaza to Portland for Gerald Wallace, Brandon Roy and #21 pick
Portland gets rid of Roy’s contract and get a big in Zaza, we get a defender, energy guy, and rebounder at the SF position in Gerald Wallace. We then pick Marshon Brooks to replace Joe.
PG Teague
SG Marshon Brooks
SF Gerald Wallace
PF Josh Smith
C Al
Buddy Grizzard
May 25th, 2011
2:32 am
“Man, this is a tough crowd for optimism.” – MC
No sir! Here’s my list of things to be optimistic about for next season:
1. The Hawks do not re-sign Jamal Crawford.
Point blank, this guy doesn’t guard anybody, and against elite defense he is nowhere to be found on offense (see CHI series). Letting JC1 walk is addition by subtraction. It instantly improves the Hawks’ team defense and the Hawks have plenty of other scorers who can take his shots while playing competent defense at the other end.
2. Teague plays starters minutes.
Teague already has chemistry with Kirk (because they are both team players, not stat-obsessed, defensively-questionable jump shooters like JJ and JC1… imagine that… ). He showed against DRose that he can guard the league’s fastest point guard without embarassing himself, and he’s a decent scorer. His emergence raises the Hawks’ prospects substantially. With a year under his belt running the show, the Hawks will have their best opportunity to advance to the ECF since 1987.
3. Josh Smith will be an All-Star next season.
He will look at how his jump shot tailed off in the post season and resume playing to his strengths. It’s the season before his contract year so he knows he needs to step it up. He knows that standing outside shooting jump shots kept him out of the All-Star game last year. This is Josh Smith’s time. This will be his best season as a Hawk.
4. Sund will let Josh Powell walk.
The Mike Bibby trade showed that Sund understands that his only means to influence LD’s player rotations is by what players he makes available to LD. By taking Bibby out of the equation, Sund put the Hawks in position to challenge CHI in the second round. Sund may be an average GM, but he knows that LD’s deployment of JC1 and Powell when better players were available cost the Hawks a shot at the ECF this year. Powell will not be back and LD will be forced to give Zaza those minutes.
5. Drew will get better.
Yes, you read it here first, folks. LD is a decent x’s and o’s coach and this was his first experience as an NBA head coach in the playoffs having his player rotations questioned by national media. I think he will tighten it up and be assisted by Sund’s personnel moves this offseason. Maybe he’ll even get a clue and start Zaza at center, giving the Hawks much-needed toughness.
Given Al’s determination to play PF, I don’t see how moving JJ to SF works. You’ve already got Josh and Marvin there, and Marvin’s contract isn’t going to be easy to move. Teague, Hinrich will be one of the best 3-guard rotations in the league next year. We don’t need a 3-Small Forward rotation.
E43
May 25th, 2011
2:41 am
Ill take the three guard lineup on any day as long as Al is at the 4. Until then its just beating around the bush in my opinion.
Magic Johnson
May 25th, 2011
3:38 am
Al Horford, Marvin Williams, and Hinrich must be traded for
Teague+Johnson+Smith+Horford+Bogut to be contenders.
Al Thornton+Gooden+Pachulia
Assuming you trade Joe to make a play for Howard, altho he claims to hate the Hawks franchise.
Marvin has played his best games as a tall catch and shoot 2.
However, Marvin Williams will not be defended by 2s unless the 3 is Josh Smith or someone physical that occupies the 3.
Smith is too heavy to be the 3. Lose weight and we’ll talk. However, Smith playing the 3 as Smith said is controversial because it means financially restructuring the team.
Magic Johnson
May 25th, 2011
3:57 am
edit:
Al Horford, Marvin Williams, and Hinrich for starters Sanders, Bogut, Gooden, Salmons
starters:
Bogut+Sanders+Smith+Johnson+Teague
bench: John Salmons+sg/pg/sf+Al Thornton+Gooden+Pachulia
-Salmons a big pg that would have punished Rose next to Joe, we could have been in the ECF
blue collar team that gives Teague pnR and iso finishers in Smith, Sanders, and Joe spotting up for 3s. Smith has worked on his post game where he gets fouls and FTA. James Worthy played the 3, Adrian Dantley played the 3, Smith can play the 3. Who can guard him when he has speed in the playoffs? only Lebron and maybe Deng but Carmelo, Pierce and others struggle with his quick spins and strength in the post.
This is the tough change that needs to be made.
Magic Johnson
May 25th, 2011
4:07 am
“Does anyone else find it dissapinting that Al has turned into Mr. softie? I mean, you got [6′9] Joel Anthony in the post snagging rebounds and blocking shots.”
everyone thought the Heat overpaid for Anthony but i’ve always liked him as a tough role player who plays bigger than his size.
Joel Anthony 7′4 wingspan, 6′9, 260 lbs,
Al Horford 7′0.75 wingspan, 6′9.75, 245 lbs
Anthony has better defensive size than Al. His touch and balance on shots seems to suffers bcuz of wingspan.
superiorblogman
May 25th, 2011
5:01 am
Honestly we should be trading Joe but I think we can get more for Al or Josh. I would trade Al or Josh to the Cavs for the #4 pick and Varaejo. I would then trade the #4 pick,2011-12 2nd rd pick,2012-13 1st rd pick to the Twolves for the #2 pick.
Pick Derrick Williams with #2 overall pick
Teague/Hinrich/Earl Watson
Joe/Marcus Thorton/Pape
Derrick Williams/Marvin Williams/Gary Flowers
Al/Reggie Evans/Chris Wilcox
Varaejo/Zaza/Fesenko
Buddy Grizzard
May 25th, 2011
5:13 am
“And the 7 we have do not give us enough ammunition to ‘compete’ for a ECF appearance.” – KevinM
I completely disagree. I believe we could have been in the ECF *RIGHT NOW* if Larry Drew had simply played Zaza instead of Powell, Crawford and Collins. Marvin’s drop in production was proportional to his drop in minutes during the playoffs. Next year JC1’s 30 minutes per game (regular season and playoffs) will be redistributed among more complete players.
In Game 6 Drew started Collins and the Hawks immediately went down 8 as the Bulls attacked Collins with quicker big men. Have you noticed Boozer doesn’t look nearly as good against Bosh as he did against Collins? To compound his failure, Drew then subbed in Jamal Crawford for Teague and let him run the point. By the end of the first quarter of Game 6, the Hawks were in a double-digit hole they never dug out of.
In each game of the series against the Bulls, the team that won the first quarter won the game. Drew showed an inability to make adjustments and abandon failed strategies. If he had simply started Zaza and not played JC1 any minutes at point guard we might be in the ECF as I type this.
“Collins/Sy/Damien/Sy – do you see anyone that is critical to retain?”
I wouldn’t call any of them critical but Collins is useful if he is deployed only for the single function his diminished abilities can serve… guarding Dwight Howard. The reason he can guard Dwight Howard but can’t guard Boozer is because Howard has no face-the-basket game. He has to power his way to the basket and Collins is stout enough and plays good enough position defense to get in his way, draw charges and force turnovers. Starting Collins against CHI’s big men who all have face-up games is absurd.
Damien is the player on that list I would most like to retain because of his defensive ability and hustle. He and Zaza bring a toughness to the Hawks that is sorely lacking.
“Contrary to what Jeff Schultz and the people at Peachtree Hoops think, Al should not be untouchable when it comes to trade discussion.” – Najeh
Co-sign. Al is actually our most attractive trade asset. You will never get value for Josh because he’s so talented but there are too many questions about his attitude. Some writer with ESPN tweeted that teams low-balled the Hawks with offers for Josh when they dangled him for trades this year.
Meanwhile, All-NBA Al is a two-time All-Star with a value contract. He has zero character issues and is highly overrated. Best trade chip we have.
STRETCH
May 25th, 2011
6:13 am
The following scenario was generated by ESPN’s Trade Machine, and could be mutually beneficial for both sides:
Lakers receive: PF Josh Smith, PG Kirk Hinrich, F Magnum Rolle
Hawks receive: PF Lamar Odom, SF Ron Artest, PG Steve Blake, SF Luke Walton
But only time will tell if the two teams are interested in teaming up for a deal.
STRETCH
May 25th, 2011
6:15 am
Artest might be a reach, but gotta like Lamar at PF and Blake as a servicable PG.
STRETCH
May 25th, 2011
6:25 am
I would probably try and hold on to Hinrich and send Williams to the Lakers, but thats only in a perfect world.
Jose
May 25th, 2011
6:54 am
Not much hope. Old African saying: “When the lead cow limps, the rest of the herd never reaches the destination”. From ownership, management and coaching. How about JJ as the Hawks leader, is he? Who decided that JJ is worth $120,000,000? We need help from top to bottom. Surgery won’t help. OVERHAUL from ownership to management, and someone with eyes to see that JJ is not a leader and neither is Josh as good as he thinks. I thought we were headed somewhere, I was very wrong.
terrell
May 25th, 2011
7:07 am
It was “increasingly clear’ to me that Marvin belonged on the bench years ago. You can only live off “potential” for so long. Get rid off this dude already. lol
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
7:54 am
Buddy Grizzard,
Josh will be an All-Star this year (quite possibly the Hawks’ only All-Star as Fundamentals said)..
So you think Josh will finally get it in his 8th year? I dont think so. Despite Josh’s declining FG % all season, that didnt stop him from taking a bunch of 3’s and long jumpers in the playoffs. I think this offseason, he will work on his jumpers again, and still take them next year.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
7:59 am
terrell,
Rod from CP has been calling out Marvin and the organization from way back (BK for drafting him #2, and Rick for giving him a 5 year $37.5 mil contract). And now Marvin is proving Rod right.
Somebody should send Marvin some of Rod’s posts, and maybe that will motivate Marvin to improve his game this offseason.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
8:01 am
Buddy,
And Josh will have a hard time getting in with KG, Bosh, Boozer, Amare, Carmelo, Pierce and LeBron taking up the forward spots.
Trojan
May 25th, 2011
8:07 am
Al will travel and have fun this summer and let his dad talk about playing PF. What he needs to realize is that you have to rebound and be tough at PF as well.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
8:19 am
Najeh,
If the Hawks wanted to trade JJ to the Bulls, last offseason would have been the time to do it. I think a SNT sending JJ to the Bulls for Hinrich, Gibson, filler and first round pick probably gets the deal done.
KBP
May 25th, 2011
8:20 am
This team is better if Joe is at shooting guard. Name 3 better. I can name 3 better small forwards than Joe. On another note, Marvin is much better than what most people think. He needs to be on another team where he will get at least 15 shots per game. On this team he averages 9. Unless you are Dirk, you are not going to average 16pts. on 9 shots.
doc
May 25th, 2011
8:35 am
yeah o’b marvin has gotten so bad rod doesnt have to exaggerate his deficiencies any longer.
i really dont think anything can be used to motivate him as he never seems to rise to the occasion or be pushed to say he wants to do the things to excel. complacent might be a good word to describe him.
JoJo the Godfather
May 25th, 2011
8:36 am
I think Josh, Pachulia & Al are all above avg rebounders, and if given the opportunity, could be better on the offensive boards even though that’s not a priority in our current scheme which focuses more on transition defense. Under Woody, we were a better offensive rebounding team, but were almost dead last in transition defense. LD wanted to reverse that trend. IMO, Josh (who attacks the basketball) can improve by blocking out consistently (he has a tendency to watch the ball and lose his man), and Horford (who does a good job of blocking out) can be more aggressive to the ball. The more you think about it, its a shame that we’ve never been able to find that 7-footer ala Tyson Chandler, which would make this group an elite defensive & rebounding team.
J from the A
May 25th, 2011
8:42 am
Can someone fire Schultz? Or at the very least ban him from “reporting” on anything Hawks related?
His little trade Josh blog has created a new flurry of “rumors.”
Well, at least Schultz can feel important because his wild and irresponsible speculation has caused a lot of fellow bloggers and sports journalist (sic) to cite/link back to his article.
smdh.
darrell starks
May 25th, 2011
8:56 am
@ J from the A
The hawks are not trading josh, that would be the most retarted move in hawks history beside trading nique for danny manning, and the rest was history after nique was traded this franchise was never a contender until now, thats 17years of fustration of this organization that this franchise can’t afford any more.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 25th, 2011
9:00 am
JOSH AND TEAGUE ARE 2 BEST PLAYER AND THE FUTURE FOR THIS TEAM.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
KevinM
May 25th, 2011
9:07 am
I truly believe we had several chances to get Tyson Chandler the past couple of years. The continued stagnatio
KevinM
May 25th, 2011
9:17 am
I truly believe we had several chances to get Tyson Chandler the past couple of years. The continued stagnation that is Rick Sund.
We are now cap strapped with our big 3. Beyond that, we have Teague and Zaza that can impact a game. That’s not enough pieces to get to the ECF.
Watching the Heat last night, they needed help aside of their big 3. As Ken Strickland has said, it is about what you surround them with. I just don’t think we have much of a chance with Josh at the 3 unless he goes pre-2010 and gets back inside. I like him matching up with Deng, but he just hasn’t shown he is productive on the perimeter.
So if you come back with all 3 captains, you have little wiggle room to do anything because of what you paid Marvin. That one piece is killing the growth of this team. There’s no room for him on the frontline. WWMDTS? What will Marvin do this summer? Chapel Hill/work on his schooling some more/go back home and visit/wait out the CBA. Like Bibby, until he is gone, there is no growth for this team.
And for those who want Joe/Teague/Kirk in the starting lineup,aren’t you going to consider matchups? There aren’t many contending teams that will work against.
darrell starks
May 25th, 2011
9:21 am
@ MC
Starting TEAGUE, HINRICH in the back court is not a good idea, the hawks must stay big and get a center with size that can defend the paint, bring hinrich of the bench is the best thing for the hawks because experience, plus it keep the rotation deep which is better for the second unit that LD fail to develop during the year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
HoosierHawk
May 25th, 2011
9:26 am
Think about the centers left in the playoffs:
T CHandler, J ANthony, K Perkins , Noah . None of these guys are going to go out and score a lot (or at least as much as allstar Al). But they will block shots, rebound, and play with intensity. If I could get a scrappy C and a backup PF or decent SF for AL, I’d do it. If we trade SMith, we have no one to block shots.
darrell starks
May 25th, 2011
9:28 am
TEAGUE, HINRICH, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD is a horrible starting lineup, the back court and front court is to small, no way the hawks go into this season with HORFORD at center, 4 years is a enough.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
J from the A
May 25th, 2011
9:30 am
If Nene is willing to come to Atlanta:
Al + Marvin
FOR
Nene + Gallinari + rights to Chandler or Afflalo + #22 Draft Pick
Denver does it because they are on the verge of losing Nene for nothing. To be able to pick up a young 3rd team NBAer in exchange for someone who was going to walk would be a dream — a dream they would be more than willing to accept at the cost of taking on Marvin’s contract.
Atlanta does it because it is great value. Hawks get a true center, a young, capable SF in Gallinari, an additional quality rotational piece (if the Hawks can sign Chandler or Afflalo), and the potential to pick up a potential rotational player in the draft (or they could always sell the pick for cash).
I would do the same trade sending Josh instead of Al, but I don’t think Josh will bring in as much value. Any trade that involves moving Josh or Al must bring in a true center and greater depth (particularly at the Forward positions).
Iso-Joe sucks
May 25th, 2011
9:36 am
I seem to remember that Michael Jordan was not only the NBA scoring leader but defensive player of the year during his career and a good rebounder. And Scottie Pippen was also a high scorer and all-defensive team guy and a good rebounder. So why does Joe Johnson think the Hawks need more guys to do the dirty work? Why not do some of the dirty work yourself and you’d get some easy looks and steals that lead to breaks?
Joe looks like he is disinterested unless he has the ball in his hands. I’m sorry, but he doesn’t shoot good enough to only be doing that. That big contract he signed is paying him for those things.
J from the A
May 25th, 2011
9:39 am
Joe does a lot of the dirty work … but rarely gets credit for it.
darrell starks
May 25th, 2011
9:48 am
STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, ?
BENCH HINRICH, DAMIEN, MARVIN, WILCOX, ZAZA
RESERVE PAPE SY, COLLINS
sign and trade jamal for center Kaman
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
hawksfancents95
May 25th, 2011
11:50 am
i think some people on this blog are more worried about a better bench than a starting lineup.ever since jamal got the 6th man of the year award people seem in love with having a great bench and crazy thoughts of moving josh to the bench or starting damien and moving kirk to the bench. with our current salaries a teague hinrich joe josh al lineup actually sounds great for running or “motion” offense. i know everyone wants that actual C but i dont see any impact C’s in this years free agency plus our $ constraints. our bench would be zaza twin marvin sy and idk if we resign damien or magnum. i havent seen magnum play but he could be a good sf/pf combo player and damien we know is going to give good defense but he is going to be a year older and slower and his offense isnt there besides putbacks and fastbreak points. that bench does sound weak and there is no backup PG if teague and kirk start. i think we could get some quality backup PG in FA(havent really checked)or if someone slips in the draft we can use that pick. I do think marvin will be a quality player if we trade him to a new franchise. i think the pressure of the #2 pick in atl and the joe factor hasnt let him live to his potential here. i have high hopes for the 11-12 hawks and i think josh will take this summer to improve his mid range and low post and finally get his well deserved all-star nod.
Magic Johnson
May 25th, 2011
12:09 pm
magnum rolle is skinny and likely cannot defend the elite 4s and 5s. He probably shoots a lot to make up for it. He was a figurehead for management’s facade of activity.
Josh Smith’s attitude is not the cause of his trade value. He is a 6′8 post up wing. There are lots of wings and not a lot of good defensive centers.
If you obtain Smith and trade your center then you need to replace your center. Theoretically Gerald Wallace, a player with somilar strengths to Smith did not net a franchise center.
Nene is ultimately a PF/C tweener like Horford. Turning Marvin into Gallinari would be a major upgrade but are there enough shots to go around?
Neither Smith nor Gallinari have GREAT rebounding for the PF position come playoffs. Overall an exciting team but all the opposing team needs to do is put a long PF on Smith and he can’t post making him a perimeter player. Offense relies on Smith hitting jumpers to keep defense honest. Even if he loses 10 lbs that’s an iffy lineup.
Gearon, Jr.
May 25th, 2011
12:24 pm
@hawksfancents95
Even “superstars” need a bench. There needs to be little fall off. Smith’s quickness+ ability to score around the rim + elevate on his jump shot increase a bit if he drops to that 230 lb range.
Not only do we need a center but we need another impact forward.
Horford has more trade value that we can package with Hinrich and Williams.
Blue Collar Team
Teague+Johnson+Smith+LarrySanders+Bogut
Salmons+RonniePrice**+AlThornton+Gooden+Pachulia
**John Salmons is a capable point guard next to Joe Johnson in a big blue collar lineup. This allows for us to either go after a small athletic tweener guard or a solid backup SG/SF
possibility to have IMPACT for $1-2 M
Tracy McGrady,Michael Redd, Grant Hill, Kirilenko
Hill wants to start and avoided the Celtics offer to finish hiss career, McGrady used Detroit to prove he deserved big$, Redd/Kirilenko may want bigger $ and STABILITY the list goes on.
a big wing may be off limits but ideally FAs would respect the franchise’s stability and ability to win. No big FAs wants to be a backup for the Atlanta Hawks.
Atlanta needs to return to tried and true methods. Size matters.
Buddy Grizzard
May 25th, 2011
12:42 pm
O’Brien cool but it’s the year before a contract year for him. I think he wants to walk after 2012-13 and win rings and laugh at the Hawks organization for undervaluing him and improperly utilizing him. He’s got more heart than Al and JJ put together. I really think he WILL get it and curb the jumpers. And Boozer, KG and Pierce are all on their last legs. Josh is up and coming.
Gearon, Jr.
May 25th, 2011
1:07 pm
Horford is robotic at the PF. Smith needs to lose weight regardless of position.
If he plays the stretch/slashing PF you need Carmelo, Thaddeus Young or Lebron James at the SF to go along with a Teague+Johnson backcourt not Marvin Williams.
Garnett, Brand is aging but the objective is not to make the All Star Game. Al Horford might get his 4 ppg as a backup in a regular season All Star game.
but its more imprtant to match up in the playoffs Its too compete for a championship.
Horford’s length is not good for defense and even worse he is too plodding and robotic to compensate on offense.
Blake Griffin, Kevin Love and Zach Randolph are 6′10 with 6′11 wingspans but at least their wingspans help there perimeter skills. Horford has a bad combination of halfcourt ability. He is strong but in the playoffs Boozer, Bosh and other power forwards are not pushovers.
Going forward here are the PFs Horford may face in the post.
7′1 Bargnani+center
Gibson/Boozer+center
Kanter+center
Bosh+center
Stoudemire+center
Even Amare who has been called soft has an advantage in wingspan and has been able to alter and even block Horford’s shots in the post while attacking him on the other end.
Horford gets love from coaches with superstars however we don’t have supeerstars to create or cover his deficiencies at the PF or C. this goes for SF Williams and Smith at PF.
Smith can play the SF/3 if we obtain a center for Horford. Neither Williams or Smith will obtain a starter playoff quality defensive center. You dont trade 6′8 players for centers unless those centers are backups or that 6′8 player is Lebron.
HoosierHawk
May 25th, 2011
1:11 pm
@MC Does Rick Sund watching the Minnesota draft workouts suggest he might be willing to make a trade to get in the draft, or was he just looking for the 2nd round?
I don’t see our second round pick filling any of our real needs (center, small forward) in any meaningful way, so why not go for value. Maybe I’m biased as a big Ten guy, but I think Jajuan Johnson from Purdue or Jon Leur from WIsconsin are better than Josh Powell.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
1:12 pm
Kobe’s comments during exit interviews…“If you’re building a championship team, your DNA always has to start with the defensive end of the floor,” Bryant said on May 11. “Always. I’m a firm believer in that. I don’t believe in building a championship team on offense. It has to be built on defense and rebounding. Period.”..
I hope LD is paying attention. Defense and rebounding usually wins in the playoffs, not the motion offense.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
1:31 pm
Buddy,
I dont think Josh wants to leave. I think he wants to stay a Hawk, but he wants to feel appreciated (by fans and media).
And for that to happen, all he has to do is cut down on the jumpers, play 15 feet in, stay focused on both ends of the court, and cut back on the whining.
HoosierHawk
May 25th, 2011
1:33 pm
Looking at the Hawks playoffs stats compared to their opponents, 2 things stick out:
a. Hawks get to the FT line far less than opponents.
b. Hawks don’t get nearly as many offensive rebounds.
So how do you fix that?
Gearon, Jr.
May 25th, 2011
1:42 pm
O’Brien 15 feet in is cliche. Josh Smith is soft as a power forward. He is a small forward.
Here are other guys who measured similar to Smith
7′0.25 250 6′8: Lebron James pg-sg-sf (shoot to keep them honest)
7′3 240 6′8 : Rudy Gay shooter
7′0.25 240 6′8.25 Michael Beasley (inefficient gunner & cannot post guys with length like Lebron/Deng)
6′11.5 230 6′7.5 Thaddeus
7′0 236 6′7.5 Carmelo
The longer your arms are relative to height and weight the slower you are. Smith is not faster than Lebron or Carmelo. He needs a jump shot to keep PFs honest. He has no post game against elite PFs.
He’s a 3 unless we get Carmelo or Thaddeus Young for Marvin Williams. That’s the only way we can get away with small ball.
Dept. of Unintended Irony
May 25th, 2011
2:09 pm
“The longer your arms are relative to height and weight the slower you are. ”
LOL, with that logic, Kevin Willis was the fastest big man in the history of the league.
doc
May 25th, 2011
2:42 pm
yeah, that had me puzzled too. i should have been an olympian track star.
Horford is the Hawks problem
May 25th, 2011
2:45 pm
@ Dept. of Unintended Irony — LOL, with that logic, Kevin Willis was the fastest big man in the history of the league.
That’s hillarious
Milwaukee Hawks
May 25th, 2011
3:05 pm
@Dept. of Unintended Irony
most Kevin Willis was 7′0 tall with a 6′10 wingspan and around 240 lbs in his prime.
Wingspan is a part of athleticism and affects explosiveness.
Josh Smith losing weight and playing the 3 is more logical than suggesting a 6′8 guy with 240lbs can score against elite length like Garnett without a jump shot to keep the defense honest.
Smith is to small to post up Garnett. He has no inside game. His jumper needs to be a threat to get past defenders and dunk the ball or draw fouls.
Smart defenders sag off of a shooter. Josh becomes worthless without a jumper. He is a slasher 3 not a stretch 4. Only a Horford+Williams trade can move this team forward. Horford will never be Blake Griffin, Amare, Dirk, Bosh, Zach Randolph, or Kevin Love. There are at least 4 PFs and Cs u can play as 4s in this draft with potential to guard and score on Al in addition and ppl want Horford or Nene to be the cornerstone of a blue-collar defensive minded team. Seems they just want to reinvent smallball backcourts and frontcourts. Smith at the 3 and 230 lbs or No thank you.
Bogut+Sanders+Gooden+Salmons(+pick) for Williams+Hinrich+Horford
sign Al Thornton, Ronnie Price and swing picks for Semih Erden. unless Miami gets a center we have advantages at pg+C, size at the 2, and defense to contest shots, get stops and keep it close.
@MC
Michael Beasley played the 4 and was undersized. This year he played the 3 even without the ability to defend and draw fouls that Smith has.
You realize Smith said its controversial to speak about wanting to play the 3 because it puts pressure on management to restructure the team. Horford gets to play the 4 and underwhelms. Smith plays the 3 at 245 lbs and exceeds expectations.
After 2008 Horford was never invited back to Team USA, guess who was? Horford will never be the dynamic 2 way player or match up as well with PFs as Josh Smith at the SF when he was closer to Thaddeus/Carmelo’s weight.
:::::::
If Hawks want to contend they need a defensive center or a star power forward who matches up with elites. Al Horford is neither. He’s a lankier slower David Lee.
Trojan
May 25th, 2011
3:08 pm
“Kobe’s comments during exit interviews…“If you’re building a championship team, your DNA always has to start with the defensive end of the floor,” Bryant said on May 11. “Always. I’m a firm believer in that. I don’t believe in building a championship team on offense. It has to be built on defense and rebounding. Period.”..
This would make a great article, “Why aren’t the Hawks building with defense and rebounding?”
Milwaukee Hawks
May 25th, 2011
3:15 pm
@Trojan
because of Al Horford’s pedigree and imperfect info. He gets seen as a skilled player who deserves to be a power forward and is held back by Josh Smith who doesnt care if he plays the 3 or 4 and has fluctuated muscle/weight in the offseason to play wherever th team wants him to.
All he does is try to bully shorter power forwards and try to hit feast or famine jump shots. No ability to beat quicker power forwards off the dribble. Only centers and even then he rarely gets free throw attempts. If he drops weight to increase speed for offense his defense would suffer. Unlike SF Josh Smith.
Going forward Horford is solid at best in the playoffs and a tweener at worst.
Hawks will build with offense in mind and move Josh to the 3. Smith for Chris Kaman to accomodate Horford and Teague will become a SG while Hinrich’s expiring is used in propaganda as a way to get Dwight Howard.
Dumb C Ham
May 25th, 2011
4:20 pm
Why in the hell would anybody want to keep Al Hoford? Dude is not only charmin soft but never shows up in the big games. backs down from challenges(amare, playing center) has a poor attitude, will force the team out of its best line up to accommodate his demands and has only average talent at best. He is the odd man out and if he is all that you say he is why are no other teams interested in him? Could it be his lack of defensive effort? He is the most inconsistent hawk. See if you can find any body other than the press who is interested in a trade for this guy. He sucks.
Dumb C Ham
May 25th, 2011
4:23 pm
Al got 2 pts as a 5th string reserve and you guys call that an allstar… stop begging.
Censor
May 25th, 2011
4:40 pm
I bet Mike Cunningham is still censoring the many hawk fans who are calling for Horford to be traded for a real center. Its terrible the way Cunningham controls and manipulates in order to keep his favorite player. Is he still sleeping with Al Horford?
Just because you sleep with Al Hoford Cunningham doesnt mean we need to have his mediocrity soft charmin ass holding our team back.
Get Rid Of Al Soft Ass Hoford and stop the backwards sliding. Take John Drew with you.
Censor
May 25th, 2011
4:42 pm
Al is not as good as Josh….Period.
Let them play 1on 1 and the losers leaves town.
By Al !
Rufus1
May 25th, 2011
5:10 pm
We need a player like Lamar Odom playing the SF….That is who we should trade Josh for.
Rufus1
May 25th, 2011
5:11 pm
Lamar Odom for Josh
ant banks
May 25th, 2011
5:35 pm
the last 30 years (1980-today) has produced only 8 champions in the NBA: lakers, boston, chicago, detroit, san antonio, houston, philadelphia, miami.
the commonality in these 8 teams? GREAT owners, gm’s, or players. if dallas wins, makin’ 9 champions in 30 they have two of the 3 commonalities…GREAT owner and player in dirk.
regardless to who we trade and for whom, the HAWKS won’t be in any championship discussions for the next 10 years, atleast.
SOBERING!!!!!
ant banks
May 25th, 2011
5:35 pm
OR GREAT COACHES!!! sorry.
ant banks
May 25th, 2011
5:43 pm
the nfl has produced 16 different champions over the same 30 years. each year any team has a shot of makin’ it to the big dance.
the nba, however, there are about 20 teams, every year, that have no effin’ chance of makin’ it to the championship. HAWKS ARE ONE OF THOSE 20 TEAMS.
SOBERING
JoJo the Godfather
May 25th, 2011
7:25 pm
I’m not sure what the worry is with Al’s wingspan, we’ve always got Marvin 7′3″ wingspan and Magum Rolle’s 7′6″ wingspan to average us out.
By the way, and yes, I’ve said it before, don’t sleep on Magnum Rolle. He is the next Dennis Rodman!!!
hawksfancents95
May 25th, 2011
7:27 pm
Unrestricted FA we could possible acquire
Carlos arroyo
Delonte west
Troy Murphy
Joel Pryzbilla
Chris Wilcox
Al thornton
Mike Dunleavy
Tj ford
Josh mcroberts
Jamario moon
Earl boykins
Sebastian Telfair
Carl landry
Jared Jeffries
Earl clark
Jason kapono
Andrei kirilenko
Earl Watson
Ronnie price
id like to sign sebastian telfair as a backup pg, jared jeffries or josh mcroberts for backup PF and Jamario moon as a backup SF
START teague kirk joe josh al(as of now) bench telfair sy marvin jamario jared jeffries or Josh Mcroberts Zaza Twin
any realistic FA y’all would like to sign with the intent we start 0 6 2 5 15?
JoJo the Godfather
May 25th, 2011
7:35 pm
I like Gary Forbes out of Denver as a cheap free agent. Can play the 2 & 3 at 6′7″.
I also like Alexis Ajiinca out of Charlotte/Dallas/Toronto as our 3rd string center.
Lumbering Marvin
May 25th, 2011
7:37 pm
@JoJo the Godfather
Marvin is only 6′7.75 and has 7′3.5 arms. Thats center territory wingspan. Helps explains why he’s so slow.
@hawksfancents95
it doesnt matter. Marvin will still be trying to convince people he’s an NBA caliber SF. Horford will say every center in the NBA is picking on him. Joe will not get any younger. Hinrich will guard Dwyane Wade and Keith Bogans. Joe will have to guard Lebron and Smith will be asked to comeback at anywhere from 250-270 so he can be the center that Al Horford desperately needs.
Then Horford will miss the All Star Team and people will finally turn on him. “He cant create his shot” “All NBA third team!” “He thinks he’s Amare!” etc etc
Let’s build around the guy who drops 10 points on Amir Johnson guarding him
JoJo the Godfather
May 25th, 2011
7:42 pm
Sy, Forbes, Rolle & Ajiinca would give us some youth and athleticism at the 10 – 13 roster spots. This team’s only hope for getting better is to find a diamond in the rough, and have one or two of these guys actually develop in to a rotational player.
Phil Jackson
May 25th, 2011
7:46 pm
Gary Forbes is 6′ 5.5″. His wingspan can help on defense but he is a jump shooter on offense no post game as a 3.
People won’t believe Horford and Williams need to be traded until Smith is playing next to Kobe on the wing for the Lakers and Teague plays for the Knicks.
But those are your favorite teams aren’t they Atlanta? rofl
Al Horford, Magnum Rolle, and Marvin Williams for the HOF. Hopefully Bynum doesn’t report to Hawks camp and Joe Johnson will play center next year so Al Horford can focus on his 6′10 Dirk Nowitzki impressions and he and the fans can finally be happy.
They put Smith on a good team and Horford gets to get his sh*t handed to him by Bosh, Stoudemire, Nowitzki, Bargnani etc for the next 5 years.
::::::
Andrew Bogut/Larry Sanders/Josh Smith/Joe Johnson/Jeff Teague
Zaza Pachulia/Drew Gooden/Al Thornton/Ronnie Price/John Salmons
superiorblogman
May 25th, 2011
7:59 pm
Derrick Williams has stated that he is a SF that may play PF if asked from time to time. Al Horford has stated he wants to play more PF. Josh Smith has not stated anything and maybe that is because he has no clue of what he really is or wants to be. He just wants to do what he wants to do. There is a difference. Atleast Derrick Williams wants to be a SF, atleast Al wants to be a PF, we dont know what Josh wants to be , he just wants to shoot jumpshots when he wants to and not hear about it.
PG Teague/Hinrich/Earl Watson (minimum)
SG Joe/Marcus Thorton(MLE)/Pape
SF Derrick Williams/Marvin Williams/Gary Flowers(Draft)
PF Al/Reggie Evans(MLE)/Chris Wilcox
C Varaejo/Zaza/Fesenko(Minimum)
Like I say trade Josh Smith to the Cavs for Varaejo and the #4 pick, then package the 4th pick, 2011-12 2nd rd pick and 2012-13 1st round pick to the Twolves for #2 and take Derrick Williams. That above team is so much better than what we currently have. Finally, if you could move Varaejo and or Hinrich for Marc Gasol, Nene, Oden, Kaman, Bogut, or Bynum you would have a beast team.
Mystikal
May 25th, 2011
8:18 pm
Can’t blame Al for getting tired of being overmatched almost nightly and being the ONLY one bringing his hard hat every night while the rest of the team acts like pansies. More over knowing in the back of your mind that your season will likely end the same since nothing has changed. Al is a winner but can’t help us win if he has no one going to war with him.
Gearon
May 25th, 2011
8:23 pm
“Josh Smith has not stated anything and maybe that is because he has no clue of what he really is or wants to be. He just wants to do what he wants to do. There is a difference.”
Al Horford wants to be a power forward because he’s small and not athletic (strength and/or length ie Ben Wallace, Joel Anthony) enough to make up the difference.
Josh Smith knows Marvin Williams cannot play center. He has $8 million committed to him. Same reason Bibby Started over Teague.
$$$$$$
You have to play your money players.
What he Actually said was:
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports that Hawks forward Josh Smith doesn’t care if he plays small forward or power forward in 2011-12. “It is what it is,” Smith said. “It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
:::::::
Smith recognized that he is forcing the organizations hand to trade Marvin for a center, only way to acquire a center is thru Horford.
:::::::
This is why nobody respects the Atlanta Hawks. Varejao for Bynum or potbelly offseason party animal Greg Oden. or Nene who has no defense and wants to play the power forward himself like Horford
lmao owning the Hawks is so easy. Just string the fans along.
Derrick Williams is either Dajuan Summers part 2 or Lebron. Hawks fans say Lebron so they trade “Lebron South” who was courteous enough to recognize MArvin is untradeable for a qualtty center and only Horford brings back value.
Hawks suck and there golden cow Horford sucks too and is a midget at either PF or C. TRUTH
Mystikal
May 25th, 2011
8:41 pm
Think we need to accept that this team has PEAKED as currently constructed.
-Al Horford has been playing out of position since he got her and although productive, he is getting tired of it.
-Josh doesn’t know if he wants to be SF or PF; even though he is very effective when he’s in the post, he’d rather shoot long jumpers just to prove he can do it.
- As good as JJ is he can’t lead a team to a championship. So unless we put pieces around him to look like the blue collar 05′ Detroit team, we’ll continue to dwell in mediocrity.
-Marvin (like J Smith) has loads of talent, but after 6+ years is still trying to figure his position/role.
-Sadly Teague still hasn’t truly got a chance to show what he can do. The flash we saw in these playoffs was by default, but hopefully he’ll get a chance now.
-J Crawford is only effective as a green light shooter. Can’t have him running the offense and don’t expect much on defense, but if you need him to score he can help.
-Hinrich gets it done. Not the most talented, but he can hit shots and brings effort on both ends
-Zaza, J Collins, and D Wilkens are good role players and everyone else is dead weight
This is what Larry Drew has to work with and all considered I think he has gotten the most out of this bunch. So unless ASG want to open the pocketbook (pause for hysterical laughter) or we get a GM with a clue (or some balls) don’t expect anything different.
Rusty
May 25th, 2011
8:52 pm
Under ld everybody regressed. He is our biggest problem.
O'Brien
May 25th, 2011
9:32 pm
Milwaukee Hawks,
Smith is to small to post up Garnett. He has no inside game. His jumper needs to be a threat to get past defenders and dunk the ball or draw fouls. Smart defenders sag off of a shooter. Josh becomes worthless without a jumper. He is a slasher 3 not a stretch 4..
I know its the exception, but Dennis Rodman made it to the HOF without much of an offensive game. he made his living on defense and rebounding.
Slimjr
May 25th, 2011
9:52 pm
WITH THE 2011 #2 PICK THE ATLANTA HAWKS PICK ROOKIE OF THE YEAR 2012 DERRICK WILLIAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ALLSTAR-AL= FAKE POWER FORWARD
JOSH AND MARVIN TO MIN. FOR THE #2 PICK, DERRICK WILLIAMS…
JOEL ANTHONY PLAYS SUPERIOR HELP DEFENSE COMPARED TO ALLSTAR- AL!!
AL IS TOO SLOW TO HELP ANYBODY………………..
Slimjr
May 25th, 2011
9:54 pm
LARRY IS “THE WEAKEST LINK”!
Slimjr
May 25th, 2011
10:01 pm
FYI, Congress is having Congressional hearings to figure out how to generate new tax legislation for your retirement plans..They want to take aleast 15% of your monies….Get ready to bend over again…….
Slimjr
May 25th, 2011
10:01 pm
at least ^^^^
Milwaukee Hawks,
May 25th, 2011
10:48 pm
Milwaukee Hawks,
Smith is to small to post up Garnett. He has no inside game. His jumper needs to be a threat to get past defenders and dunk the ball or draw fouls. Smart defenders sag off of a shooter. Josh becomes worthless without a jumper. He is a slasher 3 not a stretch 4..
I know its the exception, but Dennis Rodman made it to the HOF without much of an offensive game. he made his living on defense and rebounding.
Dennis Rodman was faster and more compact than Smith will ever be. In his Prime he was 230 at most. Probably had a different wingspan than Smith, Lebron, Carmelo, Thaddeus etc.
That’s like comparing quick Pacquiao (Rodman) to an Evander Holyfield type.
Beasley Smith and Lebron have similar and near identical measurements and to some extent bone structures.
Shawn Marion as well 6′8 7′0 flat arms.
And Dennis Rodman played what position his first two championships??? Small Forward with Rick Mahorn, Laimbeer, Joe Dumars and Isiah Thomas.
is Horford/Marvin Laimbeer or Mahorn lol?
Traded to the spurs with HOF david robinson played PF with a bunch of guards trying to run up and down. Failed to win it all.
Went to the Bulls and had MICHAEL JORDAN and SCOTTIE PIPPEN and Kukoc.
MICHAEL JORDAN and SCOTTIE PIPPEN AL HORFORD one of these is not like the other
Dennis Rodman- small forward who started guarding James Worthy but guarded everyone but Kareem remember that. And he was also traded how many times?
Also remember Shawn Marion 6′8 230 leaking out on the break using pump fakes to get hook shots on the break before the defense gets back.
Can you imagine Hawks telling Shawn Marion to play at 245 lbs lol his career would be over.
Bird Word
May 25th, 2011
11:05 pm
Would anyone trade Josh for Bogut and draft picks if you could keep Crawford?
G Teague/ Hinrich
G Crawford/ JJ
F JJ/ Marvin
F Horford/ Marvin
C Bogut/ Horford/ Zaza
Mystikal
May 25th, 2011
11:33 pm
Hey MC,
Do we even know what the interest for Smith is on the market right now?
Are teams willing to give up the likes of a Bynum?
SteveW
May 25th, 2011
11:45 pm
The weird thing about Al is at the draft combine, he was like one of the 10 strongest guys in the past 10 years or something like that. He was a beast. Did 225lbs. like 20 times. I think maybe Chucky Hayes and Carl Landry have done more – 22 or something, but not many.
Dwight, as a 19 year or so at the combine could only do 7 reps. Now look at him! Noah did maybe 13 reps, same as Jeff Teague. Now look at Noah!
The problem is Al’s strength regimen plain and simple. I don’t know what he’s working on, cardio, stretching etc, but it’s obviously not strength. I don’t think the guy has gained 5 lbs. since he’s been in the League, while Dwight has gained 35, Josh 25 etc.
Same with Marvin. Somebody needs to get these guys pumping some Dwight type iron. Then I don’t think they’ll whine so much being in the paint, and can knock somebody down when they drive.
Lebron weighs more than Al for cryin’ out loud!
Al, hit the weight room buddy. Your friend Noah is bypassing you because he knows how to pump the iron.
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
12:00 am
Actually Teague out benched Noah at the combine.
Teague 225 lbs 13 times
Noah 225 lbs 12 times.
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
12:03 am
The most reps at an NBA combine was a guy named Jason Keep in 2003 with 27 reps.
It was not a bad pick
May 26th, 2011
12:04 am
lol at anybody on this blog who bash Al and Marvin instead of Joe and Josh!..Al is 6ft 8 and has had to play C his whole career..Marvin averaged 14ppg while shooting 45% or better for 3 years straight with solid D…But when jamal and his 1000 shots came to ATL, The Hawks stopped going to him….All while Josh jacked up bad shot after bad shot and Joe hogged the ball……Quick ?
1.With Al really being 6ft8, and Josh being 6ft7, why has no one suggested Josh playing center?…
Al is 25x better than Josh…Marvin is 15x better than Josh…When the Hawks trade Marvin to a team with the following….1.PG, 2.coach, 3. big man, Marvin will be a 20 ppg player in the NBA..Hell, he averaged 15 his 3rd year only taking 12 shots a game..the Hawks need a coach in the worst way!..
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
12:16 am
Al’s standing reach is longer than Noah’s.
Marvin’s is longer than Josh’s, Noah’s or Al’s at 9.0 ft.
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
12:16 am
Al is 6.875
Josh is 6-7
Marvin is 6-7
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
12:18 am
The Mavs are in. Hope Chicago beats Miami
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:20 am
Rodman could defend all five positions.
Offensively:
he was unselfish to a fault and a very underrated passer.
If he was in with a [4] I reckon you called him a [3].
If he was in with a [3] coversely you might call him a [4].
If he defended the pg, was he the [1] ?
When he defended Shaq, was he a [5] ?
Nimbers, always caught up in nimbers, [1] through [5].
Rodman was a basketball player. period.
Milwaukee Hawks,
May 26th, 2011
12:21 am
Marvin is at least 245 lbs that’s 17 lbs of muscle added. (cant find nba.com article)
Josh Smith has lost much athleticism and loses the weight so easily. Its not natural or optimal.
Lebron weighs more than Amare and Nowitzki and Blake Griffin but no one says anything because they are better than Al.
Al Horford does not carry weight well. Whatever he’d gain on offense he’d lose in lateral movement and is not a shot blocker anyways.
He’d be a short armed Okafor.
Dwight Howard has longer arms and more skeletal height than Horford. That’s more surface area to add muscle to.
Howard and Horford are actually both close to 6′10 but Howards arm allow him to punch above his height and play “taller” than he is.
Dwight Howard has to jump 8.5″ inches to dunk with a 38″ vertical (has to exert 22% of vert). Horford has to jump 13 inches to dunk with a 35.5″ vertical (has to exert 37% of his vert)
Horford will never be Dwight Howard.
Sad cuz his game is based on trying to dunk on people. Either that or he needs help to get open on pick and pop.
On defense he can become Chuck Hayes a short armed guy who uses lower body strength and has limited offense. Horford is a gimmick player like Hayes. Hayes btw wants to play the 4 as well.
Milwaukee Hawks,
May 26th, 2011
12:30 am
Rodman could defend all five positions.
Offensively:
If he was in with a [4]Bill Laimbeer and [5]Rick Mahorn I reckon you called him a [3].
result 2 championships with 2 low key 2 way player Dumars who was like Joe Johnson with a lower center of gravity less iso but a better defensive stance and a 20 & 10 guy in Thomas.
If he was in with a [3] coversely you might call him a [4].
You mean if he was in with HOF/GOAT Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. With David Robinson he was a 4 and was traded bcuz it wasnt enough. Only when 7′0 Duncan joined a fading 7′0 Robinson.
I said you need to overcome what Josh gives up on offense with good offense. Only example ppl give is 6′6 Dennis Rodman who needed Jordan and Pippen.
If Smith defended Lebron/Deng, was he the [3] ? yes
When he defended [Joakim Noah], was he a [5] ? yes
Numbers, always caught up in numbers, [1] through [5].
Rodman was a basketball player. period. as is Josh Smith
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:31 am
Tonite OkC went with four guards. I’m calling Durant a guard,
along with Collison, who’s a natural [4].
My point ( or who was theirs) ?
Collison was guarding Dirk, a [4].
OkC had two pgs a [2] and a [3].
Do you think they were worried about nimbers ?
No !
Their two pgs were not playing the [1].
Harden a [2] was playing pg or the [1].
Durant was just doing what he always does.
But the other four;
do you think for a moment they were concerned about which nimber
was attached to each player ?
—Or—
Do you figure they just played basketball ?
EmirS.
May 26th, 2011
12:33 am
Whose to say that Derrick Williams will be available with the 2nd pick?
I’m willing to look at the draft from a different angle. Kryie Irving and Derrick Williams are the two most promising star like talents in the draft. But looking at the Cavs roster, they don’t have a need for another guard. Derrick Williams would be twice as more useful to the Cavs then Kyrie Irving. Unless Irving is expected to be like the next Derrick Rose or something, I would go with Williams as the number 1 pick.
But ofcourse every single Mock draft has Irving going first so…its whatever really.
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:40 am
Milwaukee Hawks, -&- everybody else
espn the mag asked D.Rose about PEDs in the NBA.
Rose:
when queried if there was a problem,
and if the problem was measured on a scale from 1 – 10
what would he score the problem;
answered: ” 7 ” – then continued:
” there needs to be a level playing field ”
My point;
Take a look at D.Howard and LbJ.
`taint natural.
Milwaukee Hawks,
May 26th, 2011
12:49 am
OkC tried to overload the opposing team with offense and lost
they played a sloppy brand of basketball with undefined equal opportunities. Harden ran numerous pick and rolls but Collison was not a big enough target on the roles.
The objective is to “just play basketball” ie just shoot 3s and sh*t. The OKC Thunder lost. Without mobile 7 foot KG, Kendrick Perkins turned into Jason Collins and they had to go small.
They had no inside-out game no post game to compliment slashers and shooters and the better team won.
Harden is better than Harden just like Joe is better than Bogans but Mavericks were a better defensive team.
“he’s long, he tries to make it hard on Durant. We post him up he has layups and floaters in the lane” Nowitzki on Josh Smith I mean the 6′8 230 lb Shawn Marion lol
OKC was new to playing small and Harden looked like a PG out there they may have pulled it off with more experience.
No team finishing under 12th defensively has ever won the title.
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:51 am
If I had the # 1 overall pick, and I could not trade down,
I would select:
* – Kawhi Leonard – *
6-7, San Diego St., 19 yrs old,
I would draft him on 3 criteria:
(1) He’s a physical specimen
(2) Potential
(3) Work ethic, and blue collar mentality
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:54 am
Milwaukee Hawks,
You missed my point entirely.
I was not debating strategy.
OKC lost because DIRK played for Dallas !
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
12:58 am
My 12:51 am post was for *— EmirS.—*
The Real Mandingo
May 26th, 2011
12:59 am
@Big Word
I totally co-mickeyfickey-sign. I would seriously consider making that move. Josh Smith’s attitude is like a cancerous tumor that needs to be surgically removed. He’s also a bad teammate but, unfortunately, I think most NBA experts already know this which make him hard to move/trade.
“Bird Word
May 25th, 2011
11:05 pm
Would anyone trade Josh for Bogut and draft picks if you could keep Crawford?
G Teague/ Hinrich
G Crawford/ JJ
F JJ/ Marvin
F Horford/ Marvin
C Bogut/ Horford/ Zaza”
@Grandad
May 26th, 2011
1:16 am
1 Chicago 97.4 <>
2 Boston 97.8 <>
3 Orlando 99.1 <>
<<<>>>
Bogut, Sanders, Mbah a Moute, Salmons . Imagine Mbah a Moute becoming Josh Smith and Jennings becoming Teague and Delfino becoming Joe Johnson. Salmons and Gooden becoming a 6th man= depth.
would become Top 12 Defense at worst: Teague(!)/Johnson/Smith/Sanders/Bogut
(Ronnie Price)-Salmons/Al Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia-Collins
5 Miami 100.7 <>
6 LA Lakers 101.3 <>
7 Dallas 102.3 <>>
8 New Orleans 102.5 <<>>
Memphis 102.5 <>>
Philadelphia 102.5 <>
11 San Antonio 102.8 <>
12 Indiana 103.4 <<>>
13 Oklahoma City 104. <<>>
14 Portland 104.2 <<>
15 Atlanta 104.6 <>
16 Denver 104.8 <<>>
Little Fawkers
May 26th, 2011
2:47 am
Trade Josh Smith for whatever we can get. Just get him out of Atlanta! I predict he becomes a decent player under a real head coach (sorry Drew) but ain’t happening here. Time to move on and take some of the other scabs with you.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 26th, 2011
2:52 am
James Harden reminds me of a young Joe. Hopefully he gets to play the complementary role throughout his career that his talents dictate rather than being miscast as a #1 like Joe has been.
superiorblogman
May 26th, 2011
3:17 am
MC, are the Hawks looking into Derrick Williams?
EmirS.
May 26th, 2011
3:27 am
@Najeh
Lol funny,
During the OKC/Dallas game I was watching Harden. And like all other players we usually, as fans, like to compare them to other known stars. So I started thinking to whom I could compare Harden to.
Only one…literally…only one other player I could compare him to…Joe Johnson. It’s funny because his knowledge of the game seems to surpass that of JJ. He’s a very good passer and a decent scorer as well as defender. A pretty inconsistent scorer tho. But decent none the less. TNT and ESPN crew’s call his game “Old Man’s Game”. As in old school basics…which show quite well. I’ve been watching him as a player all season. Not often but every now and then. Thru the playoffs, I’ve gotten a chance to see more of him. He’s a starter that comes in off the bench. And only because OKC needs ammo off the bench.
Sadly tho, I don’t see him as a future All-Star player.
O'Brien
May 26th, 2011
8:05 am
I am big fan of OKC. But Scott Brooks, KD and Westbrook should be getting alot of heat from OKC fans and media.
Anytime a team crumbles in the last 5 minutes of back to back playoff games, you have to question the leadership on the sideline (HC), the floor leader (Westbrook), and the team’s best player (Durant).
Although Westbrook is more talented, he reminded me of Josh Smith. By that I mean terrible decision making at times, and terrible shot selection at times. And KD reminded me of JJ somewhat, in that he was not demanding the ball at crucial times down the stretch.
For example, last night, down 1, one minute to go, Eric Maynor tells the team to clear out. and let him go one on one (despite the fact that KD and Harden are available to receive the pass). And what does KD do? Nothing. At that point, he needed to go over to Maynor and demand the ball. Those are the little things that can change the outcome of a game.
They are still a young team with a young HC, and Westbrook was not a natural PG in college, so he is learning. But they could have been up 3-2 going back to OKC. A wasted opportunity for them, because who knows which teams they will play in the playoffs next year.
ag
May 26th, 2011
8:32 am
Mystikal – you must have missed the playoffs or you don’t consider those games being played at night. Al sucked.
Trojan
May 26th, 2011
8:40 am
I am still puzzled at how Al could be so soft in the playoffs. I love Al but he totally disappeared. We need toughness, right now Al is not tough enough to play PF much less center.
Slimjr
May 26th, 2011
9:56 am
Westbrook= Josh, no winners here…. shoot
Slimjr
May 26th, 2011
9:56 am
Al got soft cause he played for LARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
doc
May 26th, 2011
10:14 am
o’b though i have heard very little from brooks mouth, what comes out is not sharp nor inspiring.
SteveW
May 26th, 2011
11:55 am
I wouldn’t bet the house that LeBron weighs more than Blake Griffin as asserted above.
Gary
May 26th, 2011
11:57 am
I can see Harden as a future all-star, in the JJ mold of course. He has a lot of confidence and basketball IQ. Celtics probably kicking themselves for not insisting on him instead of Green in the Perkins trade.
northcyde
May 26th, 2011
12:36 pm
Enter your comments here
dj dascorpian
May 26th, 2011
12:58 pm
If we traded Al to the Lakers: Al would flourish off of the bench. If we traded Josh to Orlando: Josh will flourish for Van Gundy. If we traded Zaza to LA/Orlando, Zaza would flourish under that system. Even Marvin-with his big ole butt-would flourish under the right coaching circumstances. I read a lot of these post with bloggers tweating about the kind of Hawks team they want. This is the common tread that must be done. Hire a great coach who is about winning, period. The Hawks issue is -as much as they are talented; they’re not big enough at certain positions, and once those issues are handled, the Hawks will again-make the playoffs and possibly get past round two.
ILL-Logical
May 26th, 2011
1:00 pm
Congrats to the Mavs for a well played, tough win. It look like a 2006 rematch for the Finals; MC, who you got?
ILL-Logical
May 26th, 2011
1:04 pm
*looks*
brigadierjerry
May 26th, 2011
3:11 pm
I was thinking what model is the quickest was for the Hawks to really become a contender and I think it is the Celtics model. I would move JJ to the 3 since he is crafty and getting his shots like Pierce. The problem is who is going to be the Garnett type player for the Hawks from a defensive ?Can it be Horford or smith or do they have to get someone for that role?Also, I dont mind the idea of putting Kirk at the two guard but if not then I wouldnt mind a person like Anthony Parker or someone who can shoot from the 2 guard spot. Teague will be the point. Funny Teague reminds me of Eric Manyor a lot their games are very similar.
Also since Drew seems to like offense a lot why not get a defensive assistant to focus on that side of the ball?If Lester Conner is that I dont see the results on the court
northcyde
May 26th, 2011
3:15 pm
You guys do know that the 3-guard backcourt didn’t work during the regular season . . . right?
It was only a small sample size ( 30 minutes vs 3 teams ). But that lineup was one of the worst we could put out on the floor last season. That lineup only held its own vs Milwaukee, and that was partially because JJ was red hot ( the 1st headband game )
But when that lineup played against Denver, they got destroyed offensively. And in the brief time they played vs Chicago, they got destroyed on the boards.
It’s a reason why teams don’t go to 3 guard lineups as their main lineup. JJ’s potential rebounding issues is only part of the issue with that lineup.
Hinrich, while a good defender, isn’t a defensive stopper by any means. And that lineup would put even more pressure for Smith and Horford to rebound the basketball.
***********************
The main problem with JJ’s assessment of his rebounding, is that while it is low ( for how big he is ), MC compared JJ to guys that play mainly SF.
Of the guys MC listed, only Brewer exclusively plays SG most of the time. Melo never plays SG . . Q-Rich plays SF about 70% of the time . . Matt Barnes may guard SGs, but plays almost exclusively at SF. And as far as J-Rich being a much better rebounder, I think MC must have meant Q-Rich. Because J-Rich’s total rebounding rate is slightly below JJ’s ( 6.9 to 6.7 for J-Rich ).
But those other guys rebounding had more to do with the position they played on the court, and their role in the offense, than their size and physical strengths.
But JJ is the highest paid. And like Barkley said . . there’s a certain amount of responsibility that comes with that contract. LOL . . and while people don’t think he’s the best player on the team, that contract will expect him to play like the best. So it is what it is. If coach needs for him to rebound more, that’s just what he has to do.
MIke Miller, while technically listed as a SG, still played 45% of his minutes at the 3. Miller has always been a very good rebounding G/F though, and ranks #1 amongst SGs.
Melo a SF, is #3 in rebounding amongst SFs ( 12.4 total rebound rate ). Melo plays around the rim, so he’s going to get his share of offensive rebounds, and has always been a very good defensive rebounding SF.
Brewer’s TRR is a very good 8.6. In his case though, he’s told to crash the boards because he’s going to get few plays ran for him. That’s one of the reasons why he’s ranked #6 amongst SGs in Offensive Rebounding rate.
The only question with JJ is if he could rasie his current 6.9 total rebounding rate, to close to what Marvin’s is right now at 10.1 if he exclusively played SF. But with that 3-guard lineup, that still may not even be enough.
Because you’d still have a situation in which Smith and Horford would have to rebound better, and force Teague and Hinrich to up their rebounding as well.
Here’s the real about rebounding. I’ll use hoopdata as well. We’ll go with guys who have played in 40+ games . . averaged at least 20 minutes a game. Here is where our main guys rank by position. When you click on the link, you’ll also have to click on the blue TRR column ( not the first TRR on the League Averages line, but the TRR column on the Player Name line ). Click on that column once or twice to get the numbers to descend from highest to lowest.
Johnson - tied 15th amongst SGs ( 6.9 total rebounding rate )
Marvin – 10th amongst SFs ( 10.1 )
Smith – 16th amongst PFs ( 15.0 )
Horford – 16th amongst Cs ( 16.0 )
I mean . . sometimes people must tell the entire truth about this team. We all know what the problem is.
Rebounding has been an issue with this team since forever. I think it’s hilarious that Marvin, of all people, has a higher total rebounding rate for his position, than JJ, Smith, AND Horford. And Marvin flat out disappears from a rebounding standpoint at times. But because other guys get more offensive possessions, their lack of rebounding doesn’t stick out as much . . or they’ll have a monster rebounding game and pad their stats to balance out the weak rebounding games.
By the way, using this standard of reference, Jamal Crawford ranks LAST in this sample amongst SGs, even behind guys like Jason Terry, JJ Barea, and JJ Redick.
So the question is not only can JJ raise his rebounding rate playing SF, but also can Smith and Horford raise their defensive rates respective to their position into the top 10, if we go small? I mean, unless we’re going to ask Teague and Hinrich to also produce respectable rebounding rates as well for their position.
By the way, amongst the regular rotation guys, Zaza has the best total rebounding rate at 16.1
Balance out the roster ASG.
Fundamentals
May 26th, 2011
3:25 pm
A solid week of negativity…I along with you find myself guilty.
Entering 2011 we have
Teague, Kirk and Joe can handle the backcourt well. We need to add someone who can drive the basket like Teague did in the playoffs. Possibly a spot up shooter. Teague can work on his shot. Kirk will be fine with more time to develop the offensive sets. He needs to know when his shot is coming and from where…as do all good shooters.
Josh isn’t such a big deal at SF if he can put some post moves together. Horford likes the perimeter. If they both effectively work together, they’re a pretty dangerous combo. They just need to focus on post moves and mid range jumpers this summer. No more 3’s.
ZaZa might benefit from more time at C, but we honestly need an impact C this summer. An athletic draft project would be nice. Someone who can finally fill that defensive post defender role, someone who can rebound and clean up the mess while giving Al & Josh the support they obviously need.
Sy will be the “blue collar” type player we need to help in the backcourt and SF. I’m almost guessing they’ll bring Collins and Damien back as inexpensive role players.
Other than that we have Marvin under contract…who for the how many summers in a row is still wondering what to do to fill a role on this team? Nothing personal…I see his talent, but he needs a chance to bloom somewhere. Maybe if Jamal moves on he can get his touches. It’s obvious he doesn’t mesh with Josh, Joe and Al. He can either lead the 2nd unit in scoring like Jamal…or move on.
Jamal is an assett when you need an unstructured scorer who takes advantage of opportunities. He can’t handle PG or defensive assignments. He’s great for a boost, but can’t be expected to run the offense or show leadership on D.
We’ve got alot of positions that will be open this summer. We need to find a way to make some trades for some young, hungry talent. We need heart and energy…or as Joe said it…blue collar players.
We also need LD to realize he’s got to use those players. Everyone needs a role. Everyone can make an impact if utilized correctly. We just have too many folks that aren’t allowed to fit in.
Fundamentals
May 26th, 2011
3:28 pm
I bet Teague outrebounds Joe and Marvin next year easily with more playing time.
Fundamentals
May 26th, 2011
3:31 pm
Rebounds are easier to come by if you know who is shooting, when they are shooting and from where. LD’s motion doesn’t allow for predictable sets. Yes that can throw off the defense, but it also impacts rebounding. If we knew the play, we’d know when to box and crash as a unit…and thus improve our rebounding on the offensive end.
We lack rebounding on defense because we’re still switching and helping instead of boxing out and holding our man accountable. We need a new Tree to plant in the paint. That’s solve the leadership, chemistry and defensive problems we’re seeing today.
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
4:00 pm
I think I’m agreeing with *northcyde:
* Three guard line-up or Joe at the [3].
We need to get Bigger not smaller.
I don’t know exactly how much it has been discussed
on this board, but [..Mr Shultz's trade scenario..]
which I’ve noticed on a half dozen other sites,
(it did not originate with him)
Josh & Cap’n Kirk to LAL;
for Bynum & Artest…I’m all over that one !!!
If we could get Bynum, knee and all, I’m in.
I would hate like the dickens to give up Kirk, but,
Bynum is a once in a lifetime opportunity at a center !
northcyde
May 26th, 2011
4:07 pm
And honestly, I think you guys are CRAZY for putting some hope in Pape Sy, a very late 2nd round pick that Sund found overseas, that didn’t even start on his team over there. We’ve only seen Sy in spot minutes in garbage time against garbage players. Can he really be a regular rotation type player that gives you timely minutes?
Is he really better than what Mario West?
It’s absolutely disheartening that Sund doesn’t have the evaluation skills to get us decent role players here. Bringing back guys like Collins and Damien is an almost absolute FAIL for this team, because on a game by game basis, those guys just aren’t good enough. They wouldn’t play on ANY of the Conference Finals teams. They wouldn’t play in Boston . . or LA . . or San Antonio . . or even Memphis. But we’re forced to look at these guys to contribute?
Sickening.
LOL . . and we trade away the one kid that MIGHT develop into a decent bench player for a guy who stays injured and may not have over a year anyway ( talking about Jordan Crawford and Kirk Hinrich ).
The ASG and Sund MUST get their act together, if we’re to get to that next level.
They need to properly identify what this team needs, and get those players in here.
brigadierjerry
May 26th, 2011
4:53 pm
northclyde,
you make some good points and i agree with you. In your belief do you think there is a chance either jj horford or smith gets traded?Again depends on what CBA looks like. Also considering the Heat and the Bulls will be battling the next 5 years. Knicks Sixers, Pacers Nets will be better, Orlando who knows Boston still will be decent, where do you see the Hawks in this mix as a team?
brigadierjerry
May 26th, 2011
5:00 pm
Grandad,
Bynum is intriguing but the Lakers already stated that he is untouchable. Also Bynum reminds me of Sam Bowie who got maligned for being drafted before MJ but he was actually a solid player for his career. Problem was he was hurt all the time.
Also I wouldnt want Artest on this team. He needs a strong influence and there would be no one on ATlanta that could fill that void.
Booo!
May 26th, 2011
5:39 pm
“After 2008 Horford was never invited back to Team USA, guess who was? ”
@MilwaukeeHawksFan
Horford was Born and raised in the Dominican Republic he was there until the age of fourteen. He plays on their National team every summer along with Charlie Villanueva and Francisco Garcia. Al was on the USA “Select” Squad which was and is baisically a group of young up and coming players who schrimmage against the True Olympic squad (Kobe, Lebron, Dwight etc.) in order to get them prepared for the Games (Ex. Beijing).
And as much as I love josh, he flamed out in his Team USA tryout and wasn’t called back. Horford actually would have had sorry arse Carlos Boozers spot on the 08′ team but decided to stay true to his roots and play for his home country. If I was al I wouldn’t have done it. LOL Then again, i’m not from the Dom Rep.
sam'l
May 26th, 2011
6:01 pm
Obvious that the Hawks could have beaten Chicago…..had they held their cool in the fifth game. Then, we wouldn’t have been talking trades and what ifs. We;d be talking finals and about what a dip Wade really is. and making fun of Spoelstra and LeBron reading the Art of War……
LA Lakers
May 26th, 2011
6:21 pm
come to a real organization Smith. we’ll get you into shape and let you be our Shawn Marion.
Bynum can go back to cutting practice to eat fruit loops. Maybe he finally grows up in…o wait where’s he going lol
Clippers East.
LA Lakers
May 26th, 2011
6:25 pm
Hawks could have beaten Chicago if Jason Collins wasn’t their starting center and Horford could actually play in the post lol. At least Smith looked out of shape. Horford gets any bigger he’ll be a slug. Never could figure why 14 and 9 makes you an all star. crazy
Jason
May 26th, 2011
6:51 pm
If we are stupid enough to end up with the line that most of you guys crave..Teague/Hinrich……please bring your pillows and blankets, to the Hawks games! how boring can you get! JSmoove is the most exciting player we have had in years, and you guys are talking about him leaving! I would dump the bench, and pay Crawford whatever it took for him to stay! Enough already with the Man crushes with Teague/Hinrich, you guys are just slobbering all over them because they are soo non threatening, but be careful what you ask for! !!! to be continued…
sam'l
May 26th, 2011
7:21 pm
No, “LA Lakers”. Hawks could have beaten Chicago because the series was tied 2-2 and they were ahead relatively late in the fifth game before they folded. So, regardless of your opinion of Jason Collins and Horford, the Hawks had outplayed Chicago to that point.
I really suspect Atlanta was the better team overall.
As to trades (which wouldn’t be discussed if we had won a winnable series):
Smith is obviously an exciting player and when he plays smart he is an asset. But unbelievably, he continues to play stupid in critical situations. Get someone who is emotionally stable.
Pachulia is a banger and a fighter. But he is clumsy, can’t hold onto the ball in a crowd, and is unnecessarily rough when his skills don’t measure up. He doesn’t understand the game. Please get rid of him.
Williams…obviously doesn’t care about improving…..Goner. I suspect (like Bibby) if Williams goes somwhere where the fans, ownership and coaches are all in synch, he will be compete again (like Bibby).
Crawford 1 and 2……Here we may have had the foundation for a ballclub…….but let that slip through our fingers because………lack of skills in evaluating players (?), ownership wants out (?)…..who knows. Jamal is obviously talented but also obviously moody…..I personally would have signed him quickly in accordance with his talent.
Josh for a center…….Bynum or Gasol ?……in a heartbeat…..but that’s a dream. Hawks don’t seem to be in the pipeline for deals with established clubs……just not respected I guess.
Sorry, I’m not in a good mood….we should still be playing against Miami with the same lineup everyone is trying to change.
ant banks
May 26th, 2011
7:24 pm
SAM’L,
i am glad that we lost to chicago. miami woulda embarrased us ROYALLY. plus we have no heart and miami has ton of it. so i am okay wit’ how the season ended for us. we weren’t embarressed this year in playoffs.
sam'l
May 26th, 2011
7:28 pm
Oh, I missed Teague…..he is to be congratulated for his series against Chicago…….but not congratulated for being anywhere close to a situation where he could be accused of sexual assault. I personally do not know Teague so I have no opinion on his character either way except that he appeared to be unfocused for long periods of time..
The question of Teague……why won’t he play…..why can’t he concentrate….why can’t he develop…..may be answered if we consider he (and maybe coaching and management) was probably freaked out of his mind by the possibility of formal charges.
This is a logical answer to the Teague mystery.
Too bad…..may have cost us the season.. .
sam'l
May 26th, 2011
7:30 pm
ant banks…you make sense…..
Najeh Davenpoop
May 26th, 2011
7:42 pm
“i am glad that we lost to chicago. miami woulda embarrased us ROYALLY. ”
I would rather get embarrassed in the conference finals than not be in the conference finals at all, hands down. Especially considering that our beloved Hawks have never gotten that far in their entire existence in this city.
The Real Mandingo
May 26th, 2011
8:39 pm
By the Numbers -
In the 2010-2011 Playoffs:
When Jamal Crawford scored 19 points or more, the Hawks’ record was 5-1 (five wins, one loss).
When Joe Johnson scored 20 points or more, the Hawks’ record was 6-0 (six wins, no losses).
Conversely, when Jeff Teague scored 20 points or more, the Hawks’ record was 0-3 (no wins, three losses). In defense of Teague, he did lead the Hawks in scoring (24 points) in a home game against the Trailblazers during the regular season which the Hawks won.
Since I believe Hawks’ mgmt. will not make any major personnel changes during the offseason, I hope the Hawks consider the following starting lineup for the upcoming 2011-2012 season:
Jeff Teague – PG
Jamal Crawford – SG/PG
Joe Johnson – SG/SF
Josh Smith – PF/SF
Al Horford – C/PF
I feel Jeff Teague’s role for the Hawks should be similar to Rajon Rondo’s role for the Celtics. Teague should be the spoon or straw that stirs the drink. I would like to see Teague play as a distributor and faciliator. Starting Teague at the point guard position allows Teague to get more accustomed to playing with Jamal and Joe simultaneously which should develop better backcourt chemistry and overall team chemistry. This lineup change makes Kirk Hinrich the new 6th man. Kirk Hinrich is a mature veteran whose character and flexibility allows him to adapt to this new situation.
As a result, I hope to envision the bench as follows:
Kirk Hinrich – PG/SF; 6th man
Zaza Pachulia – C/PF
Marvin Williams – SF/PF
Damien Wilkens – SF/SG
Pape Sy – SF/SG
Jason Collins – C
Hopefully, the Hawks will look to acquire one or more big men such as a “project big” like Hasheem Thabeet who will undoubtedly be a “big project.”
Please be aware of any organization’s use of subtlety. I feel Jamal Crawford will more than likely be re-signed. The Bibby-Hinrich trade was primarily executed to upgrade the point guard position at that time and secondarily to free up (salary) monies to re-sign Jamal Crawford as Mike “Stinger” Glenn alluded on “Hawks Live! Pregame” shortly after the trade was performed. The Atlanta Hawks official website currently features four players on the left and right of the screen – Joe Johson and Al Horford or Jamal Crawford and Josh Smith. (You will have to refresh the Hawks’ official website main page to see all four players.) I believe these four featured players are the Hawks’ “Core Four”- that is the use of subtlety to which I am referring.
Gerald Wallace for Pryzbilla
May 26th, 2011
9:32 pm
Hasheem Thabeet? via trade?
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
9:40 pm
Adrian Wojnarowski reports that Bynum is untouchable.
Jim Buss (son of Jerry, brother of Jenny sp.) is supposed
to have discovered Bynum. Therefore AB is his guy.
Also Mike Brown is his hire !
He has hitched his horse to those two and with them…..
the Lakers immediate future…Brown / Bynum.
I could at least muse for about 24 hours about the
possibility of having a legit Big !
Now back to researching ways for Sund to find…
a bona fide Center ?
Grandad
May 26th, 2011
9:43 pm
brigadierjerry
Yes, I saw where you mentioned it as well.
[...Bynum...^...above...^...]
O'Brien
May 26th, 2011
9:56 pm
northcyde,
2 questions. Assuming the Hawks do not go to the 3-guard lineup:
1) would you start Kirk or Teague at PG? Or would you let them have a competition in training camp and preseason?
2) Who would you start at Center and SF?
O'Brien
May 26th, 2011
9:57 pm
I think the Lakers will hang onto Bynum, especially since there is a possibility that Howard becomes available.
O'Brien
May 26th, 2011
10:44 pm
We saw Kurt Thomas make Al’s life difficult in the playoff against the Bucks. And then we decide to sign Josh Powell and Etan Thomas in FA.
Bulls sign Kurt Thomas, and he is giving them good minutes in tonight’s game. I think one reason why he signed with the Bulls is they gave him a 2 year at a little more than the vet min. but Rick’s history suggests that he only does one year vet min deals.
I think we could have used Kurt Thomas.
Fundamentals
May 26th, 2011
10:44 pm
I agree that Bynum won’t move till Dwight is headed to LA.
How is it that Boozer was a big time signing and big deal when Chicago was winning, but once they have trouble Rose is “all alone”.
Chicago shows the same lack of confidence and lack of penetration just like the Hawks. They’ll lose in 6 to a team they could beat..if not tonight in 5.
Fundamentals
May 26th, 2011
10:45 pm
Kurt is suprising. So crisp, so focussed every year when it counts.
doc
May 26th, 2011
10:55 pm
no reason kurt hasnt been here for the last five years with our undersized and out numbered bigs. really sad he has not been here.
sweet ronnie brewer.
Melvin
May 26th, 2011
11:07 pm
These Refs are trying their best to give the Miami this game.
hawksfancents95
May 26th, 2011
11:32 pm
i am not watching one single game of this miami v dallas series. i swear stern is in these refs ears to do whatever they can to push miami forward. miami is a great team and its not all refs but when things arent goin miamis way it seems a whistle will be blown to slow momentum and give miami a break. stern only wants big name teams in the finals to maximize ratings. stern=BCS, meaning only the big football schools/big market NBA teams will be playing when people who dont usually watch, tune in. he thinks that will get more attention than say a Minnesota Twolves vs Milwaukee BUcks finals would. so until the Hawks draft a rookie that becomes a universal fan favorite and sells jerseys worldwide we cant expect to get to the finals or any ref help. stern sucks period
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
12:05 am
Refs or no, that comeback was incredible. The Heat remain my least favorite NBA team, but they deserve credit for (so far) living up to the self-generated hype.
Go Mavs.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:27 am
Wade= special
ISO= not
Wade has his Batman(Lebron)
ISO= not
Tonight again proves why you need specially gifted players to win the money games!!!
Atlanta has got to enter the draft and pick up the rookie of the year, 2012 and future Allstar as the #2 lottery pick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
With the 2011 #2 lottery pick the Atlanta Hawks choose rookie of the year 2012 and Allstar sensation playing the critical SF position averaging 15-23 pts. per game along with 8-10 rebounds, Derrick Williams!!!!!!!!!!!!! Make it so……AYE Captain…
Josh and Marvin to Minnesota for the #2 Lottery Pick!!!!!!!!
Sund, do something you’ve never done in your average career of 31 uneventful years….
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:30 am
Sund+ Larry= 38 wins in 2012…..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:35 am
The Atlanta Hawks are truly a Lousy organization…………………………………………………..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:31 am
drmaryb
This link is for you..Enjoy..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63lhtx2q8o&feature=related
The Real Mandingo
May 27th, 2011
1:46 am
^^^that should be “… I would like to see Teague play as a distributor and ‘facili[t]ator’ [sic].”
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
2:25 am
O’Brien
May 26th, 2011
9:56 pm
northcyde,
2 questions. Assuming the Hawks do not go to the 3-guard lineup:
1) would you start Kirk or Teague at PG? Or would you let them have a competition in training camp and preseason?
2) Who would you start at Center and SF?
*********************
Start Teague at PG no matter what. We need to see if he can duplicate what he did in the playoffs by playing with our best players.
Start Smith at SF, but almost forbid him to shoot 3s. Matter of fact, play him on the low block and along the baseline, while Horford plays PF in the high post.
Start Zaza at C, since he’s going to be the only one to battle on the offensive glass.
All of this is assuming that we don’t do anything significant free agent wise in which a player we brought in could replace a starter.
Pull Zaza after the 6 minute mark, slide Smith to PF, Horford to C, and insert Marvin into the game. Or pull Teague at the 6 minute mark, and play Hinrich at PG.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
2:38 am
I think the Heat are the most opprobrious, yea, vituperative team
of all time. Bathed in ignominy and awash with agrandizement
and showered by hyperbole fr om espn then, yes,
propped up by the nefarious little napoleonic shyster, Stern.
—But—
Other than the 3rd qtr, when Myame scored 9 staight
[all free throws] 1 flagrant, 1 tech, 1 bogus trav call on Chi,
plus a dis-regarded double dribble, [on the Heat]
all coming at the end of the 3rd, the officials let them play.
I admit that was alot.
—But—
Once again;
Chi had a commanding lead [..Late..] and Myame went on a…..
what ? 18 – 3 run, to win the game.
For as repugnant as I think [..mostly LbJ..] they are.
I must give them a vast amount of credit for that 4th qtr.
It was splendid !
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
2:52 am
* fr om – that’s Southern Azerbaijani for;
* from;
means the same thang:
to specify whence one came.
I don’t speak reglar Azerbaijani;
that’s why fr om is “southern”
I only speak with a southern accent.
Reglar Azerbaijani would be – f ` rom
spoken like a yankee.
G`nite.
JerryWest
May 27th, 2011
3:09 am
MC,
Please do an article on who is responsible for each of the bad draft pick in the last 8 years.
terrell
May 27th, 2011
7:13 am
Better go after Dwight, or the Eastern Conference is a rap for the next few years. The big 2 and half will only get better. Plus they’ll attract all of the vet FA’s. Better make it happen Sund(somehow).
Horford/HinrichMarvin/two future 1sts for D12(s&t) and whoever.
Take back a bad contract, if you have to.
terrell
May 27th, 2011
7:31 am
Here’s 4 reasons why the Hawks havent been very good as of late.:
1.Josh Childress at #6 overall
2.Marvin Williams at #2 overall
3.Sheldon Williams at #5 overall
4.Acie Law at # 11 overall
Talking bout crippling a franchise.
BK musta been on them rocks.
terrell
May 27th, 2011
7:32 am
Meant to say BK and Woody. Cant put it all on Billy.
O'Brien
May 27th, 2011
7:37 am
First OKC, and Now Chicago. It sucks watching these teams crumble under pressure.
And although I am not a LeBrat fan, dude has made some great plays this postseason, first against Boston, and now against Miami, offensively and defensively. I hope our players realize the importance of playing defense.
And although I am not a Miami fan, congrats to Bibby, who makes it to the NBA finals and gets a chance at a ring. That being said, Go Mavs
terrell
May 27th, 2011
7:53 am
Obrien. first it was the Hawks, then OKC, and then Chicago.
O'Brien
May 27th, 2011
8:17 am
Northcyde,
Although 5 games in the playoffs are not enough of a sample size to earn the starting spot, I agree with starting Teague. This past season, he has looked better playing with the starters than he does playing with the bench, whereas I think Hinrich will do what he does as a starter or a reserve.
And bringing Hinrich off the bench provides more flexibility, because you can bring him in for Teague, or you can bring him in at SG and slide JJ to SF. And if Teague can continue to attack the rim and make his floater, while improving his jumper, he will give the team the speed it needs on offense.
I am open to ZaZa starting at Center. However, Rick will have to bring in at least one more legit backup Center who is willing to bang. As AJ points out, when ZaZa plays physical, he might called for 2 quick fouls, and with LD’s 2 foul rule, the Hawks will need options.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
8:33 am
What’s the deal with this Greg Smith out of Fresno State? Supposedly has the biggest hands to ever come through the draft. He’s only 20, and has really been working since his college season was over. Any chance we take a 6′10″ PF/C in the 2nd rd? I guess other possibiities with similar size are the kid from USC and Macklin from Florida (a little older, not a great rebounder).
If it’s me, picking that late in the 2nd, I’d have a hard time passing up Isaiah Thomas (and I’m pretty sure he’ll be available). 5′10″ with a 40″ vertical, quick, and will be playing with a chip on his shoulder. He’s a leader and a scorer that worked hard on his assists this year (6+ per game), and IMO, could do a good job as our 3rd string PG, which we’ll need given Hinrich & Teague’s history with nagging injuries. Those two are always nursing a bad ankle, or calf, or hamstring, or wrist…
A Pape Sy-clone in Jereme Richmond out of Illinois should be available as well. Young, needs to work on his shot, and needs to add some strength (couldn’t do one rep in the bench press), but extremely quick and athletic.
Trojan
May 27th, 2011
8:33 am
I would even settle for small changes such as trading Marvin for Haywood from Dallas and getting a sharp shooting small forward for the bench.
I would start Teague, Kirk, JJ, Josh and Al.
Bench: Pape, Wilkins, Shooter SF, Zaza and Branden Haywood.
Lots of flexibility and defense.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
9:04 am
If Miami is looking for a PG when the season is over, would you trade Hinrich for Mike Miller, Dexter Pittman, and the 31st pick in the draft (1st pick in 2nd rd)? Miami would do that trade I think as Hinrich would be a good fit for them to defend the big PG’s in the east. The 31st pick and our 2012 1st rounder could possibly be enough to trade into the middle of the 1st round in this year’s weak draft (if there’s a guy there that the Hawks really like). Or we could take the Brazilian Nogueira with the 31st and let him come over in a year or two. Maybe that’s the only way we ever get an impact center.
Hawks get their shooter off the bench in Miller, a young center in Pittman that most of us wanted in last year’s 2nd round, and the 31st pick. Maybe we wouldn’t sell the pick for $3M this year.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
9:44 am
“Here’s 4 reasons why the Hawks havent been very good as of late.:
1.Josh Childress at #6 overall
2.Marvin Williams at #2 overall
3.Sheldon Williams at #5 overall
4.Acie Law at # 11 overall
Talking bout crippling a franchise.
BK musta been on them rocks”.
Billy Knight was an arrogant prideful idiot! Those types come in all colors, shapes, and sizes…
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
9:50 am
If the BK had drafted CP3, Andre, and Rudy, the Hawks would be in a Finals by now
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
9:51 am
Let’s shake this thing up and see what we can get for all-star Joe:
Joe to Chi
Deng,Asik, #1 (pick 28 overall) to Atl
The Bulls need a shooter real bad.
Heat Fan
May 27th, 2011
9:52 am
No way Miami would do that. Pittman will be on the active roster next year and Mike will be healthier. If Miami win it all Vet FAs will be coming for the league minimum. They just were saying Oden possible coming next year. If Pat Riley can pull that off he’s one of the greatest GM’s of all time.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:05 am
Slimjr, they always say “facts are facts”
The only way we are going to get out of this ‘mediocrity’ and how else can you describe the 2010 Atlanta Hawks?
And if the Hawks aren’t going to move Joe to a team who desperately needs another big gun, go get in the lower 4 of the NBA draft. HAIL, let’s do both…..problem is Cleveland and Minny have no room for another PF, the easiest position to fill in the NBA.
Nice Lineup:
Teague/Brewer/Deng/Al/Josh
Zaza/Hindrich/Asik/Wilkins/Sy/pick 28/pick 48
Notice how I totally left Marvin out of the equation?
That’s not a bad defensive team….can we get enough points out of that roster?
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:07 am
Heat Fan, all Portland has to do to keep Oden is match other offers.
A reach to see Oden in MIA, and to see him on the court. He has been sitting for a long time.
dj dascorpian
May 27th, 2011
10:13 am
As for J.J. wanting the respect from the Atlanta fans he thinks he deserves: J.J., you are not an NBA champion. Let’s get that out the way right now. You never have held an NBA trophy in your hands. Your old Phoenix team have never held it either, as far as I know. So just stop this #$it about getting respect. You dissed the fans in Atlanta, manipulated this sorry management group into getting you this gamnormous overinflated contract. You basically-held this city hostage with your talk of testing the market, at a time when you should have used your influence to get management to corral a player that could help you get to that next level. Because of you, all or most of the money is dried up to get that player. All you want is that “blue collar” player who’s happy to have a gig-playin ball in the NBA, so you can chill, not play any defense, rebound, etc. You’ll came out at the 3pt line, and be just enough of a player, not to get embarrassed-and oh by the way, collect your millions you stole-from this dismal team. I have yet to hear that you would even consider offering some of it back, because you know that no other team would pay you that kind of bread-especially now, that your weak game is exposed for all to see.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:15 am
You wanna talk crazy? The numbers that PHX is paying Chills. Who did that deal? I think Kerr was gone by then? Just barely…whoever came in there made a quick move that will cost them for the next few years.
And Chills has a $7.3M option in ‘04…that rivals Marvin’s deal easily.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
10:22 am
Heat Fan…I always wonder about roster spots on a team like the Heat. Similar to this year when guys like DaSean Butler, Patrick Beverly & (I can’t remember the other kid’s name) were let go so that veterans could be signed. Just makes you wonder in there’s room for unproven guys like Pittman and whoever is chosen at 31.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:22 am
@Kevin,
iso aint going anywhere… He needs help at the 3..Marvin,Josh and Al have proven they cant help either. Just not gifted and skilled enough..Sund can make it happen and secure that future star # 2 pick if he really wants to. They say “where there is a will, there is a way”..
Sund get it done “average joe”. Stop being average and get it done or walk……
BTW Larry needs to run not walk.. He is the “WEAKEST LINK!”
Lionel Hollins beats Chicago in 6 with this Hawks squad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:29 am
With iso flaws he is still the most talent baller on the team at this time and past several years…Get him some FREAKING HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JC1 trick pony, Josh aint smooth, Allstar-AL= fake power forward, Marvin duck Williams plays at 5′6″ and gets his shot blocked by undersized pg’s are not the answer….
39 wins coming up in 2012,as presently configured………..
Trojan
May 27th, 2011
10:41 am
Slimjr: Great post.
I MUS WRITE
May 27th, 2011
10:47 am
That Rick Sund is slicker than a greased pig. Just heard the most uninformative radio interview ever….790 the zone
!. Do you expect more from joe johnson being the a top 5 salary in the NBA.
RS: Blah Blah Blah
2. Y couldnt Teagues get minutes during the season and why did it take an injury for him to show what he could do
RS: Our veterans were playing well
3.Do you consider winning a few games in the second round improvement?
RS: our team has improved every year
For the love of god get this guy outta town …….. As usual he says absolutely nothing. In short we are happy with our core and there wont be any changes. O yeah he wants to pay Jamal and keep him here. Baffling after his playoff performance…….
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
10:49 am
“Everything is on me,”
Derrick Rose said:
“Turnovers, missed shots, fouls.
Learn from it. That’s all I can do.
The series is over with.
I wasn’t tired.
I was just making dumb decisions, and it cost us the game.”
Well I’ll be dawg-gone.
So that’s what it sounds like when a leader takes responsibility.
That’s alot of words for JJ-Maxx to have to string together all at once.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
10:52 am
One trade I’ve always flipped back and forth on:
Josh Smith for Danny Granger
Indiana finally gets their front court set with Smith & Hibbert, and Hansborough coming off the bench. George gets moved to SF. Rush & Jones cover SG. Atlanta gets a true SF that’s very similar to JJ. Granger is a little cheaper, but has an extra year on his deal.
Granger’s stock is probably down a bit, while Smith’s potential will make him more valuable. If we could move Marvin in the deal for the expiring contract of Mo Pete and a young player/draft pick, then I think I’d go for it. We’d still need some help at PF/C, but at least everyone on the roster would have a clearly defined role.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:59 am
Teague,iso, and AL… Jettison everyone else
I MUS WRITE
May 27th, 2011
11:03 am
Stop it with the Teague/ Heinrich starting back court. That is a recipe for disaster especially with JJ at the 3. Teague is still a question mark I need a bigger sample size, Heinrich is a good back up pg/sg not a full time starter. 6′0 pg 6′3 Sg No thanx…..
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:27 am
@Slimjr
you wrote this stupid post….lol…”If the BK had drafted If the BK had drafted CP3, Andre, and Rudy, the Hawks would be in a Finals by now, the Hawks would be in a Finals by now”
quit dreaming!..the Hawks still would have had a 6ft7, 6ft8 frontline…and none of the 3, CP3, Andre, and Rudy, have made any diffrence on any team in the NBA! none have been to a conference final! the only mistake made was made by Gearon not letting Knight fire Woody in his second season!
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
11:29 am
Josh Smith & Marvin Williams to Indiana for Danny Granger, James Posey, and the 42nd pick in this year’s draft.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:32 am
@Slimjr you are having a horrible mourning ..you said this…
“iso aint going anywhere… He needs help at the 3..Marvin,Josh and Al have proven they cant help either.”
Well Al and Marvin have been used wrong..Al is a natural PF who at 6ft8 has had to play center and Marvin would be a 20ppg scorer if the Hawks ran plays for him and quit trying to make a star out of Joe Johnson..You have to be tired of watching Joe dribble for 18 seconds then every time down the court!
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:37 am
@Slim jr you need to find another hobby..you actually said this….
“With iso flaws he is still the most talent baller on the team at this time and past several years…Get him some FREAKING HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Al, if given the chance to play pf is clearly the most talented player on the team…Jamal Crawford is a better guard than Joe…everyone knew that the hawks were going as far as Jamal took us, once he cooled down, the Hawks were out…
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:38 am
@JoJo the Godfather
“Josh Smith & Marvin Williams to Indiana for Danny Granger, James Posey, and the 42nd pick in this year’s draft.”
if your trade proposal don’t include a center, to free our BEST player, AL to play pf, please don’t post it..our problem is at C and Joe Max not being a true #1 option!
doc
May 27th, 2011
11:39 am
yeah gd, i was thinking the same thing as i heard it live last night. i imagine every hawk fan as well. rose wasnt doing bs as he was as sincere as i have heard a player.
iso joe also came to being iso money too. as he says it i dont get credit under no terms good or bad he still wanted the money as though he was the man crippling the franchise he didnt give a damn about in terms of responsibility publically. his take was get some blue collar guys want it? right now wade, bosh, rose, noah, dirk, terry, marion and the queen look pretty blue collar as they do everything in their power to win including scrapping for every last loose ball floor burns or not. that is called money ball. jj learn something this summer.
Worldwide Clyde
May 27th, 2011
11:46 am
*yawn* *yawn*
Worldwide Clyde
May 27th, 2011
11:49 am
Dwade came from the weak side and blocked Rose’s shot the other night after he beat his first defender. JJ would have just let him shoot an uncontested layup.
joe
May 27th, 2011
11:52 am
sorry joe you get paid to do it all.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
12:04 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer in WNBA…Al is our 3rd best player, and would remain that way after a Josh/Granger trade (Granger may actually be our best). However we would have $15M in expiring contracts to try to find a center with. I don’t think there are a lot of teams lining up to trade us a solid center for Josh Smith or Al Horford. That center is going to have to come from free agency or the draft, IMO. A JJ/Granger combo on the wings is an upgrade in my opinion, especially if we can dump Marvin’s contract in the process.
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
12:39 pm
Can you believe it, the Miami Heat made it to the NBA finals with a frontline comprised of 6′8″ 250lb SF LJames, 6′9″ 245lb C JAnthony, and 6′10″ 235lb PF CBosh, WOW. If, as some of you are insisting, we can’t go anywhere with Horford playing so soft, how did Miami do so well with CBosh, who’s the poster child for being soft.
How can that happen when so many of you insist that it can’t be done without a dominant presence in the middle? How can a Miami teams, who’s frontline is no bigger or taller than the proposed 3 guard lineup of 6′7″ 240lb SF JJohnson, 6′10″ 245lb C AHorford and 6′9″ 240lb PF JSmith, accomplish such a feat?
Could it be that it’s actually possible to make it to the big dance without a dominant presence in the middle, and a frontline that’s short by NBA standards.
Is it possible that if you take full advantage of your speed, quickness, athleticism, talent, play solid overall DEF, especially solid perimeter DEF, and stock your bench with quality starting caliber players like PF-UHaslem, SF-JJones, PG-MChalmers, SG/SF-MMiller, and even C-ZIlgauskas, you can actually do more than whine and moan about not having as so called true center of major presence in the middle.
We need to take a page from Miami’s book and focus of DEF, since our OFF should be just fine. The problem is, unlike Spoelstra, LDrew is married to his OFF, and he seems to think more OFF will overcome the lack of adequate DEF. Otherwise, why would he insist on consistently playing his 2 biggest DEF liabilities(Bibby & Jamal) and OFF 1st and/or only players at PG?
The biggest attitude change that needs to take place on this team isn’t with the players, but with HC LDrew. He needs to get past paying lip service to playing DEF, and actually commit to developing our young players and a solid approach to playing DEF. The Bulls HC demonstrated he wouldn’t hesitate to bench any player for not doing what he he wanted done the way he wanted it done.
That approach speaks more effectively, and will get their attention much, much quicker than repeatedly trying to reason with a player’s sense of understanding in closed door conversations.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:48 pm
Marvin William was worst #2 LOTTERY PICK IN HAWKS FRANCHISE HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A complete BUST!!!!!!!! Jettison that mother yesterday………………………………..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:51 pm
Al is not a power forward he is not skilled enough to play the 4 as a starter! He is a center like JOEL Anthony an no where as good defensively..
Valet parking AL will escort you to the rim everytime……………..OVERRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:52 pm
and not as good^^^^^
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
12:52 pm
DOC-You are the master of instigation. I really liked your reference to LeBrat as the Queen. Personally, I think we can get a more committed DEF effort from our current players, now that one of our biggest DEF liabilities is gone and the other one is on the way out.
It’s hard to get players to make a DEF committment when, for almost 4yrs, you’ve had 2 HC’s that did little more than pay lip service to their approach to playing DEF. After all, both HC’s insisted on seriously burdening the teams DEF efforts by forcing everyone else to coverup for, not one, but two DEF liabilities at PG/SG.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:57 pm
If Marvin played Derrick Williams one on one, in 5 minutes Duck would quit…..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:00 pm
Word on the street is Lebron weighs closer to 265-270..A beast……
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:03 pm
Marvina Williams is a most promising MVP WNBA Candidate…LOL
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:10 pm
iso cant do it all and Sund should have never paid this dude 200k per night…
I fault Sund and Gearon for this crap. But he is the same guy that dismantled the SuperSonics!!!
Sund= 31 years of mediocrity
Cant change his spots now…………
dj dascorpian
May 27th, 2011
1:10 pm
Bibby: I gotta hand it to you. You’re going to be getting an NBA title ring by default. I ain’t mad, though; you forfeited the rest of your salary for a chance to play for a contender. Although you hide behind the big three, that’s still ok in my book. You will retire with a ring, which nobody is going to take away. The obvious difference in Miami vs Hawks, talent from top (management) to bottom. They represent, period. They have championship experience. Hawks have playoff experience-that will continue to stay (if they ever again make the playoffs), at the same first round level and they fade out. The regular season matters. It also matters how you finish. It was only folly that Hawks were thinking that the regular season didn’t matter. They played as poorly as a team could play, under the tutalege of L.D. and got away with no repercussions. Somethings got to give. Either J. Smith or L.D. won’t be back. Just watch what’ll happen this offseason.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:17 pm
Larry will bench JT and start that scrub Marvin in 2012..Watch it,bet on it!
O'Brien
May 27th, 2011
1:22 pm
Kevin M,
Joe to Chi, Deng,Asik, #1 (pick 28 overall) to Atl. The Bulls need a shooter real bad..
The reason they would want JJ (imo) is not because he is a shooter (which I don’t think he is anyways). The reason they would want him is because it gives them another good ball handler who can create his own shot.
And for that same reason, if we give up JJ, and we lose Jamal, then which player on the Hawks would be able to create their own shot?
Despite my issues with JJ, I think we are better off (short term) keeping him this coming season. What I would do is hire a sports psycholigist to meet with Josh, Al, Marvin, JJ and Teague individually.
JoJo the Godfather,
Would you prefer Horford for Granger, or Josh for Granger? I think Josh is a more talented PF than Al, if only we can get Josh to comiit to playing to his strengths, and focus on defense and rebounding.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:26 pm
So Houston, swapping Adelman at 7M for McHale for what you pay him will be an uptick? Hardly….
We are going to have to do the same thing to move forward. Houston can no longer depend on Yao. They are retooling.
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:34 pm
Ken – I agree on the defense, particularly on the rebounding.
My question is = If LD is so married to his offense…whey do we lose most of our games with lousy, end of clock jumpshots…just as Chicago and OKC lost this past week doing the same thing?
The motion doesn’t provide any real sets or plays, just random motion till someone makes a bad decision on the perimeter because “they were open”?
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
1:38 pm
DJ DASCORPIAN-Sund and the ASG could end up proving me wrong, but I don’t see much happening during the offseason other than us replacing JCrawford, EThomas, JPowell, and possibly HArmstrong. The biggest decision or move will probably be whether LDrew will consider moving JJ to SF. And if he decides not to, will he give Teague an honest chance to start next to JJ, or will he continue making excuses and give into his bias and go with the vet, KHinrich?
Will LDrew continue focusing on OFF at the expense of DEF, or will he recognize how much playing solid DEF, especially perimeter DEF, has played in Miami and Chicago’s success? If he’s smart, he’ll use this yrs training camp to fucus on DEF, like he used last yrs camp to focus on OFF.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
1:38 pm
O’B…I’m torn betwen Josh or Al at PF, mainly becuase I’ve never seen them play off of a legit center.
Al “appears” to be more coachable, is a better defensive rebounder, has one of the best mid-range jumpers in the game, and I think will have a longer career in the NBA, -BUT- Al is not a good help defender, and did not show a consistent motor this year. I think Al is the ideal role-player/3rd option on a championship team.
Josh “appears” to march to the beat of his own drum despite what’s going on around him. He’s twice as athletic as Al, and is obviously one of the best defenders of the rim in the league, -BUT- I don’t think he’ll ever have a mid-range game, and he does not consistently block out on defense. I think Josh has to develop in to a #1 or #2 option, which will only happen with better shot selection and a strong work ethic. I don’t think he has the mentality to ever be a 3rd option for long. He wants to be a star.
So to me, if you have to choose, its either keep Horford (you know what you’re getting) or gamble on Smith (evolving in to a star player). I think I keep Horford.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:43 pm
OB, moving JJ to Chicago allows us the potential to keep Jamal at a favorable rate over what he made last year.
Joe may not be a shooter, but that is his MO. He has to put points on the board, a la Kobe. He doesn’t have to control the ball in CHI, so if he can play off the ball like Deng, he improves their backcourt immediately.
Chicago isn’t going to entertain Jamal. They have been down that road already. Its possible moving Joe allows Jamal to come back, but there needs to be improvements at the 3 and 5. Getting Jamal or a replacment for Jamal to build a 3 man without Joe will be quite a challenge.
Saying all that, I don’t think Joe nor Al are going anywhere. I think the rest of the roster is up for grabs. We’re going to have to deal with it.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
1:45 pm
Ken Strickland
You can win with that front line [Myame]
when they have a legit SS X 2 + a sidekick [Bosh]
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:45 pm
Rick Sund’s comments prove our entire organizations philosophy repeatedly. We only expect to maintain or slightly improve…we’ve never really gone after a championship. We set the bar at improving mediocrity, never once fully realizing the talent we have on this team.
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:49 pm
Jamal won’t go to Chicago for the same reason he won’t stay here…DUDE DOESN’T PLAY DEFENSE
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:50 pm
How is Bosh a sidekick when he’s putting up the numbers he’s been putting up lately? Give him some respect. Don’t give him crap for playing a quality role on a Finals bound team. That’s what’s wrong with us…you’re either #1 or you’re crap. Nobody wants their role.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:51 pm
Reminiscing prior to the season: Josh’s outlook for 2010-11 from Yahoo!
Kelly Dwyer thinks highly of Josh….check out the comments:
Ranking the PFs:
“7. Josh Smith(notes), Atlanta Hawks (last year: 11th)
Smith just got it together last season. And when you’re a player of Josh’s considerable skill and athletic ability, getting it together leads to big things.
He’s just an all-rounder, tossing in a relatively paltry 16 points and nine rebounds (and that’s rounded up), but shooting over 50 percent while averaging 3.7 combined steals/blocks and 4.2 assists. My man, that works.
Famously, at least around these parts, he also gave up on 3-pointers last season. After averaging 112 3-point attempts between 2005 and 2009, Josh attempted just seven last season, and to these eyes nearly all of them were last-second heaves from half court or beyond”
That is the player we need to have at the PF…lots of high energy.
sam;l
May 27th, 2011
1:52 pm
Strickland said it…..don’t be afraid to bench an uncoachable player.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
1:54 pm
Fundamentals
Rarely did the Hawks run their motion offense.
Joe refuses to run it.
Josh (regardless of what LD says) obviously cannot learn it.
*[why else does he just stand there]
Whatever the concoction they run;
is not motion.
It’s more like diarrhea.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:56 pm
“Michael Jordan may be the greatest scorer to ever play the game, but I may go so far as to say that LeBron James is the greatest player to ever play the game. because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will but he keeps everybody involved.
“You have to be on your P’s and Q’s on defense. No guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score with LeBron James out there. Not only will LeBron dominate from the offensive end as well, but he’s also doing it on the defensive end, which really makes him the complete package.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from Scottie Pippen interview on the Mike and Mike program this morning
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:58 pm
Bosh is greater than Josh is not smooth and Allstar-AL= Fake power forward…………….
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
2:03 pm
How would you rank Dwyer’s Top 10 after the year? There is some shuffling to do:
Dwyer: KevinM:
10-Love 10-Garnett
9-Z BO 9-Al
8-Garnett 8-Duncan
7-Josh 7-Boozer
6-Boozer 6-Aldridge
5-Bosh 5-Bosh
4-Dirk 4-Love
3-Amare 3-Z Bo
2-Duncan 2-Pau
1-Pau 1-Dirk
I want Josh back at the 4 and move Al somewhere else.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
2:07 pm
I’d be all over that Joe to Chi trade if Deng’s contract didn’t suck.
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
2:10 pm
FUNDAMENTALS-The MOTION OFF is designed to create both player and ball movement, and doesn’t automatically put any particular player in a position to take the final shot. Under Woodson, Bibby, JJ and Jamal have always been allowed and/or encouraged to take control of the ball and the OFF(hence ISO)down the stretch.
I think LDrew, like his predessor MWoodson, wants certain players to be in position to take the final shot down the stretch. So he either directly or indirectly encourages the players he wants to take control(ISO)of the ball and the OFF down the stretch to abandon the MOTION OFF.
We end up taking jumpshots because using ISO’s require our players to clear out to the perimeter, which leaves them with no other option when the ISO fails and the ball is passed out. Teague and Hinrich have the ability to go ISO without having to pound the ball like JJ and Jamal, or the need for clearouts. Their ability to penetrate would definitely ease our dependence on jumpshots.
Therefore, by feeling the need to take control, or wanting to be the hero by taking the final shot, they abandon the MOTION OFF to go ISO, which gives them control of the ball and the OFF. LDrew loves to talk about his beloved MOTION OFF, but when it comes down to it, both he and certain players demonstrate their lack of confidence in it and end up doing the like the Bulls, who turn everything over to one player down the stretch(ISO).
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
2:11 pm
Joe must go.
I loathe Lebron James;
but he plays harder, is more clutch, *is more articulate,
plays better defense, gets more floor burns & loose balls,
chases down run-outs, (-I’ve seen Joe quit on-)
*takes on more responsibility, makes his teammates better,
and appears to have a desire to win much, much more than Joe !
So, if I loathe Lebron, logically,
one’s conclusion is predictable regarding Joe.
* LbJ articulates his message;
sometimes he’s full of crap,
but Joe [faux leader] never says anything…..worthwhile.
I said above:
” Lebron makes his teammates better ”
I do not think I’ve ever heard that said of Joe !
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
2:20 pm
“Well Al and Marvin have been used wrong..Al is a natural PF who at 6ft8 has had to play center and Marvin would be a 20ppg scorer if the Hawks ran plays for him and quit trying to make a star out of Joe Johnson..You have to be tired of watching Joe dribble for 18 seconds then every time down the court!”
Excuses are for the birds
Hawks Franchise= 44 years of FREAKIN EXCUSES!
Marvin and Josh must go yesterday……..And Larry should run not walk
If Marvin averages 20 points per night the Hawks are in the lottery….
Iso needs his side kick in Derrick Williams! Not Marvin Williams……………………….Yawn….
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
2:30 pm
KevinM
Joe to Chicago
—for—
Omer Asik + Deng + # 28
I would do that in a heart-beat !
Maybe even try to flip Deng after the mandatory 60 days
or whatever it becomes after the new CBA ?
@ # 28:
Goudelock
JuJuan Johnson
Shumpert
both UGA kids
Nolan Smith
Vucevic
Jimmy Butler
Some or all of these kids will be there @ 28. -Value-
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
2:31 pm
That’s the point Grandad…we need a coach who can implement a system that our kids can handle…or get some in that can. Our lack of real defensive and offensive sets kills us when it matters. Until we have crisp sets from disciplined players we don’t stand a chance.
Miami and Dallas aren’t that good, but that tiny bit of extra polish makes all the difference in the world.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
2:38 pm
Najeh, Deng’s numbers are very reasonable for what he brings. He doesn’t have to become an all-star, and I am comfortable with him against any other SF. He brings defense to that position and get this, he moves without the ball! I have only seen Damien move without the ball…must be a lost art on LD’s offense.
Speaking of LD: I was just reading about elite PG Marquis Teague at UK this year………his comments about his big bro:
“It was also an exciting month for Teague to see his brother, Jeff, play a featured role as point guard for the Atlanta Hawks in the NBA playoffs.
Jeff Teague, a second-year pro, averaged only 13.8 minutes and 5.2 points per game during the regular season, but those numbers increased to 29.8 minutes and 11.8 points in the postseason as he helped the Hawks reach the Eastern Conference’s second round.
“I was watching every game and was real excited for him,” Marquis Teague said. “I was glad he got to prove he can play on that level. He finally got the opportunity to do that.
“… It was just a matter of time for him to show what he can do.”
Those stats work for me…..Teague for 29-30 min may not even be enough.
The problem is I have zero faith in Larry Drew keeping the momentum moving forward.
superiorblogman
May 27th, 2011
2:38 pm
We need Derrick Williams but Sund and the ASG are lame and horrible.
So, on to #48.
Needs
1.Starting C
2.Quality SF
3.Backup SG
4.3rd String PF
5.3rd string PG
C
Keith Benson and Jeremy Tyler
SF
Justin Holiday, Gary Flowers, Jimmy Butler
SG
Iman Shumpert,Malcolm Lee
PF
Greg Smith, Malcolm Thomas
PG
Shelvin Mack
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
2:49 pm
Grandad if we can’t get 28 from CHI, I might settle for 44….try and get Jeremy Tyler or Greg Smith….I wouldnt’ complain about Cory Joseph either….PG from Texas…well rounded game and 6′3″…
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
2:53 pm
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
2:11 pm
Joe must go.
I loathe Lebron James;
but he plays harder, is more clutch, *is more articulate,
plays better defense, gets more floor burns & loose balls,
chases down run-outs, (-I’ve seen Joe quit on-)
*takes on more responsibility, makes his teammates better,
and appears to have a desire to win much, much more than Joe !
So, if I loathe Lebron, logically,
one’s conclusion is predictable regarding Joe.
* LbJ articulates his message;
sometimes he’s full of crap,
but Joe [faux leader] never says anything…..worthwhile.
I said above:
” Lebron makes his teammates better ”
I do not think I’ve ever heard that said of Joe !
***********************
Grandad . . you and the other people who constantly criticize JJ for his demeanor or lack of leadership, need to decide which Joe Johnson you want.
Do you want the JJ that tries to play like a superstar . . which means that he’ll jack up some bad shots, work out of ISO, and do what he has to do in order to help the team win
Or do you want the JJ that tries to be a team player . . which means that he’ll pass up shots to get others open looks, or guard the PG or SF when our PG or SF can’t guard that guy.
To me, there’s is no in between here. Either you give him superstar responsibilities and live and die with the consequences . . or you tell him to be a complete team player, and live and die with the consequences.
JJ has been called selfish . . even though his shot attempts have dropped 2 full shots a game
JJ has been called a ball hog . . even though he STILL led the team in assists for the 5th time in 6 years
JJ has been called a non-leader . . mainly due to his non-vocal nature on the court, even though the biggest supporter of Teague all year has been JJ
So which JJ do you want? The one that tries to play like a superstar, even if he can’t do it . . or the one that tries to play like a team player, even though his team may suffer if he plays too much team ball?
It’s amazing that Derrick Rose will get credit for taking responsibility for Chicago’s collapse. He missed 20 SHOTS last night and shot 5 – 19 FG after the 1st quarter and missed a FT that could’ve tied the game late ( and possibly had them only needing a 2 to tie the game at the end ).
He BETTER take responsibility for that loss.
Heck . . he was the only one shooting the ball in the 4th quarter. Deng got 1 shot in the 4th, after scoring 18 points in the game.
My main problem with JJ, is that he would’ve gotten nowhere near 29 shots in that game. He would’ve taken 15 shots, while passing to open teammates who missed shot after shot. In my view, he plays way too passive, than aggressive. It’s almost the opposite of what everyone says about him.
So which one you want Grandad? You want the “wannabe” superstar version of JJ . . . or the team ball, “I’ll always pass it to the open man” version of JJ?
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
3:01 pm
Ken Strickland . . . the motion offense here doesn’t work. It hasn’t worked consistently all season, because we don’t have enough guys who can make open jumpshots, nor do we have players who willingly cut to the basket and try to score at the rim.
So some of our more talented scorers simply took matters into their own hands at times. Our offensive efficiency was somehow worse this year, than it was last year. Just about everyone’s numbers, outside of Horford, were down this year. The motion saw less guys scoring in the paint ( outside of JJ ), and more guys jacking up jumpers.
I do agree with you about Drew though. He showed a tendency all year to value offensive players instead of defensive players. His way of staying in a game is not to stop the opponent from scoring, but to keep scoring yourself to stay close.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
3:09 pm
Larry was a jacked up hire……………………
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
3:15 pm
Grandad wants leadership, not whatever that 9 million sentence tirade was about. Take the good shots when available, get your teammates good shots and get in their @$$ when they jack up bad shots. LEADERSHIP!
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
3:18 pm
We take things into our own hands and jack jumpers because that’s what’s left when LD’s motion offense stagnates, too many chiefs wanting to be our “shotmaker” instead of set plays.
Surely he knows there’s a diffence between blacktop motion and real organized basketball. Watching it I wonder. A high school playbook could really help this team improve.
Even the guys at Milton pointed it out at the open run. Said they run more structure in the game and practice, why can’t the professionals?
superiorblogman
May 27th, 2011
3:25 pm
We have #48 this year and 2 2nd rd picks next year. At worse they should identify someone in the draft that they are willing to bundle #48 and one of next years 2nd rd picks to move up and take. That’s my problem with this organization, just no creativity or direction.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
3:34 pm
You want leadership????????????
Dont hire Larry as your HC………………..enough said………
J from the A
May 27th, 2011
3:43 pm
You guys do realize that this draft is so weak that pretty much every player pass the #2 will be a project player. Giving up assets to move up in this draft is almost not worth it, unless you can move up to #1 or #2.
(***Granted some project players are more promising than others, so if the assets are minimal and the movement is significant, maybe it would be worth it. Just don’t expect anyone from this draft outside of #1/#2 to have the ability to meaningfully impact the rotations of any playoff teams.)
(*****Yes, there are often those one or two surprise late picks that end up being solid rotational players for a playoff team in their first season. But any player in this draft outside of the top 2 that ends up being a solid rotational player on a playoff team would by far be the exception, not the rule. The probability of a player being one of these exceptions drops off dramatically outside of the lottery picks.)
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
3:43 pm
Larry really screwed up our drafting situation with Sund’s help of course by giving up on teague and giving away two 1st rd picks for the Heimlich Maneuver who stays hurt like speedy and lue did…
Mo Evans would have been more of an impact player in that Chicago series than 5′6″ Duck!!!
superiorblogman
May 27th, 2011
3:55 pm
There is nothing to realize about the draft being so weak because that is simply an opinion. Kinda like how the experts felt that Marvin was the #2 prospect regardless of who was picking. I think Kyrie Irving and Enes Kanter have more bust potential than star potential. Irving getting hurt and only playing 14 games in which he could not even average a 2 to 1 assist to TO ratio in college is equivalent to Marvin coming off the bench IMO. Too many questions to take #1. Enes Kanter not having played a minute in college, and also depending on who you ask being inconsistent when he came to the US and played high school ball, too many red flags for me.
So, what I am saying is just because you subscribe to the issue of this draft is weak, Irving is #1, Kanter is the best big man prospect, and Derrick Williams is a tweener doesn’t mean I have too, because I think you are just as wrong as the scouts are about Kanter, Irving, and Derrick Williams and don’t forget to add Marvin, Olawakandi, Sam Bowie, Kwame Brown, and on and on to that list. Even, Josh Smith was supposed to be someone that would never amount to anything in the pros.
Simply put this draft is not weak IMO and that counts more than some scout mess that has been wrong more times than I have.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
4:11 pm
Grandad – You beat me too it!!
I was going to propose this trade (similar to yours):
JJ, Marvin, and Hinrich for Asik, Deng, Brewer, and Watson. I know Hinrich couldn’t go back until after June 30th and I have no idea if the Bulls would want him back.
Then send Josh and Watson to GSW for Lee and Curry if they would do that. And they might.
I know the Bulls want to ditch Deng (it is said repeatedly they do anyway by the talking head class), and GSW wants to get rid of Curry for a “star”.
Do we then re-sign Jamal or get another 2? I don’t know the answer to that.
And the Bulls blew my prediction for me. Up 12 with 3:07 left? Come on, you gotta win that ball game.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
4:34 pm
SteveW
KevinM beat me to it.
KevinM, I would insist on # 28.
[they also have # 30 and at the very worst, that's as low as I go]
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
4:48 pm
Grandad, spot on, I had no idea they had 30 also?
DAYUMM, they’re about to improve their bench mob even more.
SteveW, and Jerry West wants to do a deal out there as well. I don’t think we have the correct pieces for them. They already have David Lee.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
4:59 pm
West gave a rebuttal to a reporter about the following:
“• West was affable as always, but seemed to take exception when a local columnist asked him whether his knowledge of today’s NBA was current.
“How current is my knowledge?” he said. “I watch every game. I have people call me. I have agents, I have executives call me all the time asking for opinions. I think I’m well aware what the league is — very well aware.”
I got more out of that comment than what I have gotten out of 3 years from Rick Sund. Sund has to be the most conservative GM there is out there. And yes, too conservative.
With Sund and his most recent comments, here is what I think we might benefit from this offseason..and probably the biggest moves we make as a team:
1) The reintroduction of a one-time amnesty clause….an article worth reading reviewing the potential candidates across the league.
And without a doubt, Marvin is my choice!
2) We will bring in more 1 year players with limited skills, no bad background and just a good group of guys that Larry can throw in there.
Our growth has to come from our bench players. We are going to thin it out again once Jamal is gone.
There are no points sitting on the bench right now as constructed.
In this unsettling offseason, look for the Hawks to stand pat, AGAIN!
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
5:01 pm
Fundamentals
As usual we agree.
To clear up one matter;
I was not brushing off Bosh in my earlier post
although I was being discretionary.
I don’t particularly care for any one of the 3 amigos,
but I have less repugnance for Bosh than the other two.
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:17 pm
SteveW . . . that trade would literally hand Chicago the championship, and put us back in the lottery.
Chicago’s lineup
PG – Rose
G – Johnson
F – Marvin
PF – Boozer
C – Noah
So we’ve just upgraded their starting lineup because JJ + Marvin >>> Deng + Bogans. Rose’s double and triple teams disappear with JJ beside him. And there’s no telling what Thibadeau could get out of Marvin defensively
LOL . . so we strengthen Chicago, while making ourselves weaker by trading both JJ and Josh? So that’s the plan? Is this the Hawks starting lineup now?
PG – Curry
G – ( Jamal? )
F – Deng
PF – Lee
C – Horford
That’s our lineup? You think a frontline with Horford and Lee could stop ANYBODY defensively? How about the backcourt? All of our defense would be on the bench. So are you starting some of those guys instead of the better offensive/high priced players?
That Hawk team wouldn’t win 40 games, because they wouldn’t be able to stop anybody.
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:19 pm
Or maybe that’s the plan . . . just trade away people to get out from under their salary, and get “lucky” in the lottery.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
5:19 pm
“Deng’s numbers are very reasonable for what he brings.”
His contract is reasonable for what he brought this year under Thibodeau. Up until this point he has never been nearly as consistent on the defensive end or with his jumper as he was this year. I’d be hesitant to gamble $40 million over the next three years on him sustaining his level of play from this year when he is not in that system.
In any case if the Hawks are going to trade Joe I’d rather get cap space in return so that the Hawks can make a run at Dwight Howard.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
5:19 pm
^^cap space + young players on rookie contracts
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
5:24 pm
Potential amnesty candidates across the league:
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/05/17/who-would-be-waived-under-amnesty-clause/
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:25 pm
Kevin McHale just got hired by the Houston Rockets.
lol . . . ok
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
5:28 pm
“northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:17 pm
SteveW . . . that trade would literally hand Chicago the championship, and put us back in the lottery.”
So you’re saying the difference is mainly coaching? I dunno, I still haven’t seen much out of Marvin. He has never led any team, and that is what a #2 is supposed to do, at least attempt to.
Marvin is as close to a leader as a Jamarcus Russell as a #1 for the Raiders. Take the money and just cruise along with no conflicts.
You think Elle Duncan reads all the Marvin slams here?
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:31 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
5:19 pm
“Deng’s numbers are very reasonable for what he brings.”
His contract is reasonable for what he brought this year under Thibodeau. Up until this point he has never been nearly as consistent on the defensive end or with his jumper as he was this year. I’d be hesitant to gamble $40 million over the next three years on him sustaining his level of play from this year when he is not in that system.
In any case if the Hawks are going to trade Joe I’d rather get cap space in return so that the Hawks can make a run at Dwight Howard.
*********************
Agreed . . . if it’s decided to trade JJ. The players proposed in those trades aren’t going to get us to Eastern Conference Final level any quicker than if JJ were here.
Ish . . just trade him to Boston for Kevin Garnett, and his 21 million expiring contract, if they want to get out of JJ’s contract. Maybe Boston takes the bait.
Granted, that means the Hawks would be out of the mix for at least 3 years
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
5:32 pm
I really, truly will never understand this blog’s infatuation with players on the Warriors. That team sucks year in and year out for a reason. None of their players play D and all of their stats are inflated because of their system. Please for the love of God keep Curry, Ellis, Lee, and Biedrins out of your trade suggestions. They are all worthless and would make this team worse.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 27th, 2011
5:33 pm
Northcyde, not a fan of Kevin McHale as a head coach? He was a horrible GM in Minnesota but I thought he was not bad as a coach there. His record is not great, but then again, he did put together a horrible collection of players who didn’t exactly have a very high ceiling.
ag
May 27th, 2011
5:36 pm
yawn, another day of most of the bloggers playing fanstasy basketball.
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:52 pm
Kevin . . . Deng is not better than JJ. Remember, JJ destroyed that dude when Chicago was trying to guard us head up.
And Marvin as a SF is better than Bogans as a SG. So the combination of JJ and Marvin is a talent upgrade over Deng and Bogans. Thibs may make Marvin into a better defensive player, just like he did with Deng. And honestly, that’s all he’d have to do with Marvin . . make him better and tougher defensively.
JJ + Marvin is an upgrade over Deng + Bogans. Honestly, all the Bulls would need to do, is find a center that would play for the MLE. They’d pick up a guy like Samuel Dalembert, who may go to them if he thought Chicago was a legit threat to win it all.
PG – Rose
G – JJ
F – Marvin
PF – Boozer
C – Noah
Bench
G – Hinrich
G – Bogans
F – Korver
F – Gibson
C – Dalembert
That lineup still may not be enough to beat the Heat, but it’s a better lineup than what they put out there this year.
northcyde
May 27th, 2011
5:55 pm
That lineup makes the Bulls a much bigger team as well.
@ Najeh . . . maybe I’m a little hard on McHale, but I don’t like that dude as a coach, and despised him as a GM. He completely messed up the T-Wolves. Hopefully he’ll have NO managerial duties other than coaching while in Houston.
Rusty
May 27th, 2011
6:22 pm
I would take deng over JJ any day. JJ will disrupt your offense with his one on three style of play. I cant stand to see him dribble for 15 seconds & take take bad shots, in the clutch you can never depend on him. Please trade him. This team is doomed with dumb azz Larry at the helm. The team has regressed under him. I never seen one man consistently make bad decisions like he does..
ag
May 27th, 2011
7:19 pm
The grass is always greenier on the othe side.. that is what some of you are saying. Bogins started every game and finished the series with 32 points, Marvin scored 21, and JJ locked Deng down. Deng only scored while Marvin checked him. That trade will set the Hawks back.
I don’t mind going backward if it means going forward if we dump the contract. The trade for Garnett would be good, or even for a high draft pick and get D. Williams on a rookie contract.
superiorblogman
May 27th, 2011
7:27 pm
ag
May 27th, 2011
5:36 pm
yawn, another day of most of the bloggers playing fanstasy basketball.
Well do us all a favor and comeback once the season starts after the lockout. You go to a crackhouse you see people doing crack. Come to a Hawks blog and until we win championship people will offer there opinions on how to get there.
doc
May 27th, 2011
7:30 pm
diarrhea runs gd, constipation doesnt. very bad analogy.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
7:36 pm
Northcyde
First of all, I like JJ. That’s just a trade for all the folks that want out of JJ’s 5 year 107 mill contract he has remaining.
Secondly, I think your forgetting a bench of Teague, ZaZa, Brewer, and Asik.
And we finally have 2 PG’s and a C.
I think we would be tough to beat.
But no, I’m not in love with Lee myself. But to ditch a contract, you gotta take a contract. And Lee is younger than JJ, with less of a contract.
Najeh – And I don’t like GSW too much myself either. But I do think Curry has a future – 44% from 3 point land or something? In LD’s motion O? Sounds good to me.
But I’m not against trying to upgrade the “core”.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
7:43 pm
Northcyde – I don’t think the Bulls are going to be paying the MLE any time soon, at least according to reports.
They already have 3, double figure per annum contracts in Noah, Boozer, and Deng. And that’s before they have to pay MVP.
And Reisendorff is a notorious cheapskate.
And if Josh or Al won’t get inside, at least with Lee we would have 1 guy that would get inside, and have Asik and ZaZa off the bench, as well as Teague and Brewer, and who know’s who else.
A Frontcourt of Deng, Lee, and Horford with a bench of ZaZa and Asik is not bad.
A backcourt rotation of Curry, Teague, and Brewer is not to bad either.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
7:47 pm
There are alot of FA SG’s available this season also, who knows what you may get for the vet Min. or the Two year exception – if those things still exist in the new CBA.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
7:52 pm
And with LD as HC, I think we’re in the lottery anyway next season in all probability.
Let’s see coming back we have Teague, Hinrich, JJ – Good BC
Marvin – Uh
Josh, Al, ZaZa – Good FC.
Maybe LD learned during the season, i dunno – but it looks like lottery from here – look at the regular season record once Woody’s discipline wore off – we were a lottery team the last 30+ games of the season.
Simjr
May 27th, 2011
7:54 pm
“This team is doomed with dumb azz Larry at the helm”
@Rusty I could not have said it better!!
We are screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Simjr
May 27th, 2011
8:02 pm
Kevin McHale= Wade Phillips, Houstons going down, and down, and down. Blah,Blah,Blah….
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
8:06 pm
Didn’t we go like 16-23 in our last 39 games?
Didn’t we got outscored by 4.77 PPg in the last 39 games?
Didn’t we have record losses by record margins?
That – 4.77 in the last 39 games is worse than lottery teams, La Clips, Detroit, Charlotte, GSW and 3 more lottery teams.
I’m just a proactive kinda guy, but steady on the trigger.
I guess Al will get softer, Josh will shoot more J’s, JJ will get older, we lose Jamal probably, watch Marvin fail some more and have a head case as a Head Coach.
If that’s you guys idea of progress, go for it.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
8:13 pm
Let’s see if we just do the 1st trade without the 2nd – JJ and Marvin for Deng, Brewer, Asik, and Watson. Our;
PG – Teague/Watson – I like that
SG – Hinrich/Brewer – OK
SF – Deng/Wilkins/maybe Sy at 2/3 – I like that
PF – Josh/Asik – I like that
C – Al/ZaZa – That’s OK also
That’s not a bad team, and you got rid of maybe the 2 worst contracts on the team, got younger, got more depth.
A front court of Deng, Josh, and Al I can live with, with a bench of Asik and ZaZa
Backcourt sure doesn’t look as good without JJ, but we are 4 deep legitimately.
SteveW
May 27th, 2011
8:14 pm
But all of this is just speculation, we’ll see what mr. Sund an co. do – which is probably nothing.
We like our core
We are only x amount of teams to go to the 2nd round 3 straight seasons.
Blah, blah, blah
Simjr
May 27th, 2011
8:20 pm
Larry= 38-39 wins, Lottery 2012
Fire MC!!!!!
May 27th, 2011
10:27 pm
For a guy that’s around the hawks as closely as NC its hilarious that he would think that a small backcourt of Teague and Hinrich would remotely work..It didn’t work with the exception of the Portland game and it also but the Wizards in the cellar.Kirk is even more ineffective at the two than what he was at the one and would only create Mismatches for our D because teams have and will post him up..so basically the hawks would be starting an undersized spot up shooter..and Joe at the 3 is also a bad idea because so being guarded by threes is a big reason why Joe posted his worst numbers as a hawk..Joe advantages lie at being able to post up smaller shooting guards and over power them with his size and girth..and also all of this talk about Joe being unable to guard 2’s is off based all though Joe is older and can’t match up with point guards he is still one of the most under rated defensive 2’s in the game.. P.S. and the Bynum Trade idea was a joke because LA would never ever trade Bynum for Josh Smith and they quickly dispelled that horrible trade notion.. No one would trade a true center for a tweener with a broke Jumpshot?? And the Bloggers on this board actually said that they wouldn’t do the trade..U journalists and Bloggers need to get off whatever yall on in the A..
yodaddy
May 28th, 2011
8:50 am
basically to be a good rebounding team that guards have to help with rebounding. They are too busy outletting like we have Dwight Howard in the middle
yodaddy
May 28th, 2011
9:04 am
I agree with Sund….this team only needs pieces
A SF who can mix it up on defense and shoot 3s consistently.
A SG who can shoot the 3 off picks.
A physical PF that likes to rebound
Josh Smith @ 3
May 28th, 2011
2:30 pm
You put Omer Asik at the backup 4 and Horford/Pachulia at the 5?
lol can Asik score on 4s because I know he can’t guard Bosh (MIA) or Boozer (CHI) etc.
You really believe Deng and Hinrich are a positive 2 and 3 combination? This isn’t midget league basketball anymore the 1 in 4 out will never work anymore. No matter how much you want to believe Josh Smith is not going to post up any 7 footers and Horford cannot score .
Teague is back to the bench for 31 year old Hinrich!! you guys are almost as idiotic a fan base as the Phoenix Suns and Golden State fan bases.
They still think they can win with 4 out 1 in.
There’s a reason Bynum is untouchable. He’s a top 5 center because there are barely 5 centers in the league lol. And if you are who you can guard Horford is not a center.
When’s the last time he had a good game with a 4 guarding him? David Lee? Zach Randolph?
Josh had to guard 7′1 PF/C Bargnani when Horford wanted to save his body from the banging and guard Amir Johnson.
A guy who’s Carmelo’s size in Josh has to guard 7′0 Joakim Noah when we go small because Horford wants to bang against Boozer. Josh has to guard Dirk. Josh has to guard Gasol and Odom.
You think Horford can guard any of those guys? Can he score on them? He couldnt capitalize on Brandon Bass’s strength or 6′10 slow Ryan Anderson or Gibson’s skinny but 7′4 arms or 6′11 Asik. The list goes on and on.
Go watch some tape of Horford just running. He is the slowest power forward outside of Lamarcus Aldridge. At least Aldridge has spider-arms and is 6′11.
In a league with not a lot of talented bigs Horford gets a lot of appreciation for being undersized.
But when the playoffs come do his gold stars and 3rd team all nba butt taps come into play?
No he gets exposed for what he is. 2 slow and uncoordinated to create his own shots on isos as a 4 and too bad a defender at the 5.