Atlanta Hawks: About that backcourt . . ..
My story the other day included the line: “[P]laying Teague more minutes, especially in combination with Hinrich, would improve the defense.”
If the Hawks started that backcourt next season, it would finally signal they are serious about defense. Teague and Hinrich had developed a good defensive chemistry, with Teague as the relentless ball hound and Hinrich as the tough guy shedding screens and challenging shots. And that alignment moves J.J. to the 3, mitigating two of his main defensive weaknesses: containing quicker opponents and chasing anyone through screens.
Using Teague and Hinrich in combination could have benefits for the offense, too, which presumably means there’s a better chance L.D. would do it. Hinrich is a shot-maker who doesn’t need screens to get good looks. Teague showed against the Bulls that he’s capable of getting into the lane and making runners and floaters or setting up cutting teammates (at least when they did cut–watching Dallas last night reminded me of what that’s supposed to look like).
With Teague and Hinrich handling the ball the majority of the time instead of J.J., the Hawks would have a new, dynamic look (assuming fourth quarters aren’t still allowed to always become Iso-Joe shows). Remember when Teague said this regarding playing alongside Hinrich?
“It’s a lot easier. Defensively, you know he’s going to have your help and I am going to have his back. He’s easy to play with. He passes the ball and gets everybody involved. It makes your job a lot easier when you know a guy is willing to give up the ball. He’s a good player.”
In addition, a starting alignment of Teague-Hinrich-J.J. sends Marvin to the bench, where it’s become increasingly clear he belongs and where he might be a better fit, anyway. But there also is one major problem with using the Teague-Hinrich-J.J. alignment on a regular basis: It sends Marvin to the bench. (It also would leave the bench thin on scoring without Jamal, but that’s a topic for another time.)
Marvin, for all his faults, is a pretty good rebounder–his total rebound rate of 10.1 ranked 21st among small forwards who played at least 10 minutes per game, according to Hoopdata. (EDIT: Marvin bottom five in rebounding-rate differential this season. It could cancel out whatever defensive gains are provided by the Teague-Hinrich backcourt because, as the Hawks saw time and time against the Bulls, good defensive effort can go for naught if the opponent is rebounding too many of its misses.
J.J.’s lack of rebounding production looks worse when you compare his strong, 6-7, 240-plus pound frame to those of some of the better rebounders in the league. Guys like Melo (6-8, 230), Mike Miller (6-8, 220), Q-Rich (6-6, 230), Matt Barnes(6-7, 225), Ronnie Brewer (6-7, 230) and so on lack J.J’s physical gifts but are much better on the boards.
How is it that J.J. could push around J-Rich when he wanted to get to his spots on the floor but J-Rich (6-6, 225) is a much better rebounder?
It takes more than brawn to rebound–instincts, awareness, toughness, technique (blocking out) and persistence are also high on the list of desirable attributes. Plus, a lot of the guys who are good rebounders don’t shoulder nearly the same scoring burden as J.J.
But you’d think a guy with J.J.’s size and strength could be better if he focused on rebounding. He was right when he said the Hawks could use more guys to do the dirty work. It’s also true that the Hawks would be a better team, with a potentially better lineup, if J.J. pitched in on that effort.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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406 comments Add your comment
Heat Fan
May 27th, 2011
9:52 am
No way Miami would do that. Pittman will be on the active roster next year and Mike will be healthier. If Miami win it all Vet FAs will be coming for the league minimum. They just were saying Oden possible coming next year. If Pat Riley can pull that off he’s one of the greatest GM’s of all time.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:05 am
Slimjr, they always say “facts are facts”
The only way we are going to get out of this ‘mediocrity’ and how else can you describe the 2010 Atlanta Hawks?
And if the Hawks aren’t going to move Joe to a team who desperately needs another big gun, go get in the lower 4 of the NBA draft. HAIL, let’s do both…..problem is Cleveland and Minny have no room for another PF, the easiest position to fill in the NBA.
Nice Lineup:
Teague/Brewer/Deng/Al/Josh
Zaza/Hindrich/Asik/Wilkins/Sy/pick 28/pick 48
Notice how I totally left Marvin out of the equation?
That’s not a bad defensive team….can we get enough points out of that roster?
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:07 am
Heat Fan, all Portland has to do to keep Oden is match other offers.
A reach to see Oden in MIA, and to see him on the court. He has been sitting for a long time.
dj dascorpian
May 27th, 2011
10:13 am
As for J.J. wanting the respect from the Atlanta fans he thinks he deserves: J.J., you are not an NBA champion. Let’s get that out the way right now. You never have held an NBA trophy in your hands. Your old Phoenix team have never held it either, as far as I know. So just stop this #$it about getting respect. You dissed the fans in Atlanta, manipulated this sorry management group into getting you this gamnormous overinflated contract. You basically-held this city hostage with your talk of testing the market, at a time when you should have used your influence to get management to corral a player that could help you get to that next level. Because of you, all or most of the money is dried up to get that player. All you want is that “blue collar” player who’s happy to have a gig-playin ball in the NBA, so you can chill, not play any defense, rebound, etc. You’ll came out at the 3pt line, and be just enough of a player, not to get embarrassed-and oh by the way, collect your millions you stole-from this dismal team. I have yet to hear that you would even consider offering some of it back, because you know that no other team would pay you that kind of bread-especially now, that your weak game is exposed for all to see.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
10:15 am
You wanna talk crazy? The numbers that PHX is paying Chills. Who did that deal? I think Kerr was gone by then? Just barely…whoever came in there made a quick move that will cost them for the next few years.
And Chills has a $7.3M option in ‘04…that rivals Marvin’s deal easily.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
10:22 am
Heat Fan…I always wonder about roster spots on a team like the Heat. Similar to this year when guys like DaSean Butler, Patrick Beverly & (I can’t remember the other kid’s name) were let go so that veterans could be signed. Just makes you wonder in there’s room for unproven guys like Pittman and whoever is chosen at 31.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:22 am
@Kevin,
iso aint going anywhere… He needs help at the 3..Marvin,Josh and Al have proven they cant help either. Just not gifted and skilled enough..Sund can make it happen and secure that future star # 2 pick if he really wants to. They say “where there is a will, there is a way”..
Sund get it done “average joe”. Stop being average and get it done or walk……
BTW Larry needs to run not walk.. He is the “WEAKEST LINK!”
Lionel Hollins beats Chicago in 6 with this Hawks squad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:29 am
With iso flaws he is still the most talent baller on the team at this time and past several years…Get him some FREAKING HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JC1 trick pony, Josh aint smooth, Allstar-AL= fake power forward, Marvin duck Williams plays at 5′6″ and gets his shot blocked by undersized pg’s are not the answer….
39 wins coming up in 2012,as presently configured………..
Trojan
May 27th, 2011
10:41 am
Slimjr: Great post.
I MUS WRITE
May 27th, 2011
10:47 am
That Rick Sund is slicker than a greased pig. Just heard the most uninformative radio interview ever….790 the zone
!. Do you expect more from joe johnson being the a top 5 salary in the NBA.
RS: Blah Blah Blah
2. Y couldnt Teagues get minutes during the season and why did it take an injury for him to show what he could do
RS: Our veterans were playing well
3.Do you consider winning a few games in the second round improvement?
RS: our team has improved every year
For the love of god get this guy outta town …….. As usual he says absolutely nothing. In short we are happy with our core and there wont be any changes. O yeah he wants to pay Jamal and keep him here. Baffling after his playoff performance…….
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
10:49 am
“Everything is on me,”
Derrick Rose said:
“Turnovers, missed shots, fouls.
Learn from it. That’s all I can do.
The series is over with.
I wasn’t tired.
I was just making dumb decisions, and it cost us the game.”
Well I’ll be dawg-gone.
So that’s what it sounds like when a leader takes responsibility.
That’s alot of words for JJ-Maxx to have to string together all at once.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
10:52 am
One trade I’ve always flipped back and forth on:
Josh Smith for Danny Granger
Indiana finally gets their front court set with Smith & Hibbert, and Hansborough coming off the bench. George gets moved to SF. Rush & Jones cover SG. Atlanta gets a true SF that’s very similar to JJ. Granger is a little cheaper, but has an extra year on his deal.
Granger’s stock is probably down a bit, while Smith’s potential will make him more valuable. If we could move Marvin in the deal for the expiring contract of Mo Pete and a young player/draft pick, then I think I’d go for it. We’d still need some help at PF/C, but at least everyone on the roster would have a clearly defined role.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
10:59 am
Teague,iso, and AL… Jettison everyone else
I MUS WRITE
May 27th, 2011
11:03 am
Stop it with the Teague/ Heinrich starting back court. That is a recipe for disaster especially with JJ at the 3. Teague is still a question mark I need a bigger sample size, Heinrich is a good back up pg/sg not a full time starter. 6′0 pg 6′3 Sg No thanx…..
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:27 am
@Slimjr
you wrote this stupid post….lol…”If the BK had drafted If the BK had drafted CP3, Andre, and Rudy, the Hawks would be in a Finals by now, the Hawks would be in a Finals by now”
quit dreaming!..the Hawks still would have had a 6ft7, 6ft8 frontline…and none of the 3, CP3, Andre, and Rudy, have made any diffrence on any team in the NBA! none have been to a conference final! the only mistake made was made by Gearon not letting Knight fire Woody in his second season!
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
11:29 am
Josh Smith & Marvin Williams to Indiana for Danny Granger, James Posey, and the 42nd pick in this year’s draft.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:32 am
@Slimjr you are having a horrible mourning ..you said this…
“iso aint going anywhere… He needs help at the 3..Marvin,Josh and Al have proven they cant help either.”
Well Al and Marvin have been used wrong..Al is a natural PF who at 6ft8 has had to play center and Marvin would be a 20ppg scorer if the Hawks ran plays for him and quit trying to make a star out of Joe Johnson..You have to be tired of watching Joe dribble for 18 seconds then every time down the court!
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:37 am
@Slim jr you need to find another hobby..you actually said this….
“With iso flaws he is still the most talent baller on the team at this time and past several years…Get him some FREAKING HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
Al, if given the chance to play pf is clearly the most talented player on the team…Jamal Crawford is a better guard than Joe…everyone knew that the hawks were going as far as Jamal took us, once he cooled down, the Hawks were out…
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 27th, 2011
11:38 am
@JoJo the Godfather
“Josh Smith & Marvin Williams to Indiana for Danny Granger, James Posey, and the 42nd pick in this year’s draft.”
if your trade proposal don’t include a center, to free our BEST player, AL to play pf, please don’t post it..our problem is at C and Joe Max not being a true #1 option!
doc
May 27th, 2011
11:39 am
yeah gd, i was thinking the same thing as i heard it live last night. i imagine every hawk fan as well. rose wasnt doing bs as he was as sincere as i have heard a player.
iso joe also came to being iso money too. as he says it i dont get credit under no terms good or bad he still wanted the money as though he was the man crippling the franchise he didnt give a damn about in terms of responsibility publically. his take was get some blue collar guys want it? right now wade, bosh, rose, noah, dirk, terry, marion and the queen look pretty blue collar as they do everything in their power to win including scrapping for every last loose ball floor burns or not. that is called money ball. jj learn something this summer.
Worldwide Clyde
May 27th, 2011
11:46 am
*yawn* *yawn*
Worldwide Clyde
May 27th, 2011
11:49 am
Dwade came from the weak side and blocked Rose’s shot the other night after he beat his first defender. JJ would have just let him shoot an uncontested layup.
joe
May 27th, 2011
11:52 am
sorry joe you get paid to do it all.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
12:04 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer in WNBA…Al is our 3rd best player, and would remain that way after a Josh/Granger trade (Granger may actually be our best). However we would have $15M in expiring contracts to try to find a center with. I don’t think there are a lot of teams lining up to trade us a solid center for Josh Smith or Al Horford. That center is going to have to come from free agency or the draft, IMO. A JJ/Granger combo on the wings is an upgrade in my opinion, especially if we can dump Marvin’s contract in the process.
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
12:39 pm
Can you believe it, the Miami Heat made it to the NBA finals with a frontline comprised of 6′8″ 250lb SF LJames, 6′9″ 245lb C JAnthony, and 6′10″ 235lb PF CBosh, WOW. If, as some of you are insisting, we can’t go anywhere with Horford playing so soft, how did Miami do so well with CBosh, who’s the poster child for being soft.
How can that happen when so many of you insist that it can’t be done without a dominant presence in the middle? How can a Miami teams, who’s frontline is no bigger or taller than the proposed 3 guard lineup of 6′7″ 240lb SF JJohnson, 6′10″ 245lb C AHorford and 6′9″ 240lb PF JSmith, accomplish such a feat?
Could it be that it’s actually possible to make it to the big dance without a dominant presence in the middle, and a frontline that’s short by NBA standards.
Is it possible that if you take full advantage of your speed, quickness, athleticism, talent, play solid overall DEF, especially solid perimeter DEF, and stock your bench with quality starting caliber players like PF-UHaslem, SF-JJones, PG-MChalmers, SG/SF-MMiller, and even C-ZIlgauskas, you can actually do more than whine and moan about not having as so called true center of major presence in the middle.
We need to take a page from Miami’s book and focus of DEF, since our OFF should be just fine. The problem is, unlike Spoelstra, LDrew is married to his OFF, and he seems to think more OFF will overcome the lack of adequate DEF. Otherwise, why would he insist on consistently playing his 2 biggest DEF liabilities(Bibby & Jamal) and OFF 1st and/or only players at PG?
The biggest attitude change that needs to take place on this team isn’t with the players, but with HC LDrew. He needs to get past paying lip service to playing DEF, and actually commit to developing our young players and a solid approach to playing DEF. The Bulls HC demonstrated he wouldn’t hesitate to bench any player for not doing what he he wanted done the way he wanted it done.
That approach speaks more effectively, and will get their attention much, much quicker than repeatedly trying to reason with a player’s sense of understanding in closed door conversations.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:48 pm
Marvin William was worst #2 LOTTERY PICK IN HAWKS FRANCHISE HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A complete BUST!!!!!!!! Jettison that mother yesterday………………………………..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:51 pm
Al is not a power forward he is not skilled enough to play the 4 as a starter! He is a center like JOEL Anthony an no where as good defensively..
Valet parking AL will escort you to the rim everytime……………..OVERRATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:52 pm
and not as good^^^^^
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
12:52 pm
DOC-You are the master of instigation. I really liked your reference to LeBrat as the Queen. Personally, I think we can get a more committed DEF effort from our current players, now that one of our biggest DEF liabilities is gone and the other one is on the way out.
It’s hard to get players to make a DEF committment when, for almost 4yrs, you’ve had 2 HC’s that did little more than pay lip service to their approach to playing DEF. After all, both HC’s insisted on seriously burdening the teams DEF efforts by forcing everyone else to coverup for, not one, but two DEF liabilities at PG/SG.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
12:57 pm
If Marvin played Derrick Williams one on one, in 5 minutes Duck would quit…..
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:00 pm
Word on the street is Lebron weighs closer to 265-270..A beast……
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:03 pm
Marvina Williams is a most promising MVP WNBA Candidate…LOL
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:10 pm
iso cant do it all and Sund should have never paid this dude 200k per night…
I fault Sund and Gearon for this crap. But he is the same guy that dismantled the SuperSonics!!!
Sund= 31 years of mediocrity
Cant change his spots now…………
dj dascorpian
May 27th, 2011
1:10 pm
Bibby: I gotta hand it to you. You’re going to be getting an NBA title ring by default. I ain’t mad, though; you forfeited the rest of your salary for a chance to play for a contender. Although you hide behind the big three, that’s still ok in my book. You will retire with a ring, which nobody is going to take away. The obvious difference in Miami vs Hawks, talent from top (management) to bottom. They represent, period. They have championship experience. Hawks have playoff experience-that will continue to stay (if they ever again make the playoffs), at the same first round level and they fade out. The regular season matters. It also matters how you finish. It was only folly that Hawks were thinking that the regular season didn’t matter. They played as poorly as a team could play, under the tutalege of L.D. and got away with no repercussions. Somethings got to give. Either J. Smith or L.D. won’t be back. Just watch what’ll happen this offseason.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:17 pm
Larry will bench JT and start that scrub Marvin in 2012..Watch it,bet on it!
O'Brien
May 27th, 2011
1:22 pm
Kevin M,
Joe to Chi, Deng,Asik, #1 (pick 28 overall) to Atl. The Bulls need a shooter real bad..
The reason they would want JJ (imo) is not because he is a shooter (which I don’t think he is anyways). The reason they would want him is because it gives them another good ball handler who can create his own shot.
And for that same reason, if we give up JJ, and we lose Jamal, then which player on the Hawks would be able to create their own shot?
Despite my issues with JJ, I think we are better off (short term) keeping him this coming season. What I would do is hire a sports psycholigist to meet with Josh, Al, Marvin, JJ and Teague individually.
JoJo the Godfather,
Would you prefer Horford for Granger, or Josh for Granger? I think Josh is a more talented PF than Al, if only we can get Josh to comiit to playing to his strengths, and focus on defense and rebounding.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:26 pm
So Houston, swapping Adelman at 7M for McHale for what you pay him will be an uptick? Hardly….
We are going to have to do the same thing to move forward. Houston can no longer depend on Yao. They are retooling.
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:34 pm
Ken – I agree on the defense, particularly on the rebounding.
My question is = If LD is so married to his offense…whey do we lose most of our games with lousy, end of clock jumpshots…just as Chicago and OKC lost this past week doing the same thing?
The motion doesn’t provide any real sets or plays, just random motion till someone makes a bad decision on the perimeter because “they were open”?
Ken Strickland
May 27th, 2011
1:38 pm
DJ DASCORPIAN-Sund and the ASG could end up proving me wrong, but I don’t see much happening during the offseason other than us replacing JCrawford, EThomas, JPowell, and possibly HArmstrong. The biggest decision or move will probably be whether LDrew will consider moving JJ to SF. And if he decides not to, will he give Teague an honest chance to start next to JJ, or will he continue making excuses and give into his bias and go with the vet, KHinrich?
Will LDrew continue focusing on OFF at the expense of DEF, or will he recognize how much playing solid DEF, especially perimeter DEF, has played in Miami and Chicago’s success? If he’s smart, he’ll use this yrs training camp to fucus on DEF, like he used last yrs camp to focus on OFF.
JoJo the Godfather
May 27th, 2011
1:38 pm
O’B…I’m torn betwen Josh or Al at PF, mainly becuase I’ve never seen them play off of a legit center.
Al “appears” to be more coachable, is a better defensive rebounder, has one of the best mid-range jumpers in the game, and I think will have a longer career in the NBA, -BUT- Al is not a good help defender, and did not show a consistent motor this year. I think Al is the ideal role-player/3rd option on a championship team.
Josh “appears” to march to the beat of his own drum despite what’s going on around him. He’s twice as athletic as Al, and is obviously one of the best defenders of the rim in the league, -BUT- I don’t think he’ll ever have a mid-range game, and he does not consistently block out on defense. I think Josh has to develop in to a #1 or #2 option, which will only happen with better shot selection and a strong work ethic. I don’t think he has the mentality to ever be a 3rd option for long. He wants to be a star.
So to me, if you have to choose, its either keep Horford (you know what you’re getting) or gamble on Smith (evolving in to a star player). I think I keep Horford.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:43 pm
OB, moving JJ to Chicago allows us the potential to keep Jamal at a favorable rate over what he made last year.
Joe may not be a shooter, but that is his MO. He has to put points on the board, a la Kobe. He doesn’t have to control the ball in CHI, so if he can play off the ball like Deng, he improves their backcourt immediately.
Chicago isn’t going to entertain Jamal. They have been down that road already. Its possible moving Joe allows Jamal to come back, but there needs to be improvements at the 3 and 5. Getting Jamal or a replacment for Jamal to build a 3 man without Joe will be quite a challenge.
Saying all that, I don’t think Joe nor Al are going anywhere. I think the rest of the roster is up for grabs. We’re going to have to deal with it.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
1:45 pm
Ken Strickland
You can win with that front line [Myame]
when they have a legit SS X 2 + a sidekick [Bosh]
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:45 pm
Rick Sund’s comments prove our entire organizations philosophy repeatedly. We only expect to maintain or slightly improve…we’ve never really gone after a championship. We set the bar at improving mediocrity, never once fully realizing the talent we have on this team.
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:49 pm
Jamal won’t go to Chicago for the same reason he won’t stay here…DUDE DOESN’T PLAY DEFENSE
Fundamentals
May 27th, 2011
1:50 pm
How is Bosh a sidekick when he’s putting up the numbers he’s been putting up lately? Give him some respect. Don’t give him crap for playing a quality role on a Finals bound team. That’s what’s wrong with us…you’re either #1 or you’re crap. Nobody wants their role.
KevinM
May 27th, 2011
1:51 pm
Reminiscing prior to the season: Josh’s outlook for 2010-11 from Yahoo!
Kelly Dwyer thinks highly of Josh….check out the comments:
Ranking the PFs:
“7. Josh Smith(notes), Atlanta Hawks (last year: 11th)
Smith just got it together last season. And when you’re a player of Josh’s considerable skill and athletic ability, getting it together leads to big things.
He’s just an all-rounder, tossing in a relatively paltry 16 points and nine rebounds (and that’s rounded up), but shooting over 50 percent while averaging 3.7 combined steals/blocks and 4.2 assists. My man, that works.
Famously, at least around these parts, he also gave up on 3-pointers last season. After averaging 112 3-point attempts between 2005 and 2009, Josh attempted just seven last season, and to these eyes nearly all of them were last-second heaves from half court or beyond”
That is the player we need to have at the PF…lots of high energy.
sam;l
May 27th, 2011
1:52 pm
Strickland said it…..don’t be afraid to bench an uncoachable player.
Grandad
May 27th, 2011
1:54 pm
Fundamentals
Rarely did the Hawks run their motion offense.
Joe refuses to run it.
Josh (regardless of what LD says) obviously cannot learn it.
*[why else does he just stand there]
Whatever the concoction they run;
is not motion.
It’s more like diarrhea.
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:56 pm
“Michael Jordan may be the greatest scorer to ever play the game, but I may go so far as to say that LeBron James is the greatest player to ever play the game. because he is so potent offensively that not only can he score at will but he keeps everybody involved.
“You have to be on your P’s and Q’s on defense. No guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score with LeBron James out there. Not only will LeBron dominate from the offensive end as well, but he’s also doing it on the defensive end, which really makes him the complete package.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from Scottie Pippen interview on the Mike and Mike program this morning
Slimjr
May 27th, 2011
1:58 pm
Bosh is greater than Josh is not smooth and Allstar-AL= Fake power forward…………….