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Atlanta Hawks: Status quo as CBA sorted out

7:42 pm May 19, 2011, by Michael Cunningham

Sorry for the lack of posts the last couple days, blog people. I’ve been laid up sick after I made a major miscalculation and didn’t initiate my proven NyQuil Strategy at the first sign of trouble.

The Hawks had some meetings before Rick Sund headed off for Chicago but they weren’t detailed discussions about the team’s direction. The Hawks essentially are on the sidelines waiting to see what happens with the CBA. It’s hard for them to make plans that could become moot under the new rules.

ASG’s talks with a potential buyer for the team don’t seem to be affecting the basketball operations side of the organization. The key line in the story by the AJC’s Tim Tucker’s: “[A] deal is not close and that it’s far from assured one will get done.”

So it’s business as usual for the Hawks–or at least it would be if not for the uncertainty about the CBA. I wish I had more for you but everything is pretty much on hold right now.

In the meantime here are links to stories from the last couple days so you can tell me why I’m wrong:

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

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378 comments Add your comment

SteveW

May 23rd, 2011
12:19 pm

JoJo – We’ll see. I understand about Chitown being inexperienced.

I just don’t think Miami has the depth to keep up against the Bulls over the long haul.

Indy should’ve won at least another game, yet by the 5th game, Chicago had taken control.

ATL should’ve gone up 2-0 in the series, but by the last 2 games, Chicago had taken control.

Asik, Gibson, Watson, and those guys are still fresh. Chicago’s 11 man rotation just wears folks down.

SteveW

May 23rd, 2011
12:21 pm

Now I could be letting my anti-Miami bias slant my vision….

I try to be objective, but I am still human

SteveW

May 23rd, 2011
12:23 pm

But I still see Miami wilting with only one off day from now on. The longer the series goes, the more it favors the Bulls.

Unless Rose goes out or something

O'Brien

May 23rd, 2011
1:03 pm

Before the playoffs started, I picked the Bulls to win this series. But after the first 3 games, I’m not so sure anymore. Rose is finding out what LeBron found out in Cleveland. One terrific player is not enough in the playoffs when you go up against a team with multiple terrific players.

Remember, LeBron won the MVP in Cleveland (just like Rose won with the Bulls), and Cleveland won a bunch of games and was the #1 seed (just like the Bulls).

But when the Cavs went up against a veteran team with a big 3 (Boston) LeBron was not enough to get them over the hump. And now Rose is up against a big two and half.

The Bulls are still learning, and once the Heat (who are a very good defensive team) clamp down on Rose, who on the Bulls can create their own shot?

And that is what Northcyde talks about with the Hawks needing Jamal and JJ. When you play good defensive teams, the offense will struggle at times. And when it does, you need multiple guys who can create their own shot. Miami has 2 (James and Wade), but the Bulls only have one (Rose). And this is only Rose’s 3rd year in the playoffs, and his first year getting this far, so he is still learning.

I woldnt be surprised to see Miami win this series (but I am rooting for the Bulls).

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
1:19 pm

If in the playoffs we are seeing stars and defense win. Why would we trade our best defender and aarguably best player. For what its worth, Josh has still only been coached by woody and ld. He has yet to be coached by an experienced coach. So what if you traded horford for cp3 the hornets wont find a better deal. Then you are able to go out and get a center in dalembert. And possibly have Joe still on your roster to move for Dwight next year. But for this year you have a star who takes the ballout of Joe’s hands and makes the defense so much better

northcyde

May 23rd, 2011
1:37 pm

O’Brien

May 23rd, 2011
7:55 am

northcyde,

And if they couldn’t score, they’d be able to pass it out to a shooter ( who may be wide open )..

Agreed. But who on this team would you consider a “shooter”? I dont think we have any, and that goes back to Rick and his mismanagement of the roster. Where are the role players?

Question for you. Do you think we have the personnel to execute a motion offense consistently?

*****************

No we don’t have the personnel to execute the motion offense. And no we don’t have “shooters’. Even guys like JJ and Jamal can best be described as streak shooters from the outside. Marvin used to be a dependable midrange shooter 3 years ago, but he’s streaky as hell now too. Hinrich may be the best “shooter” on the team now. But we don’t have another guy on this team who could be considered a “shooter”. Not even a catch and shoot guy off the bench.

LOL . . we don’t have a slasher OR a shooter. That’s a damn shame.

As for the Bulls, that’s exactly what their problem is. They don’t have another reliable shot creator/maker. Rose can’t do it by himself. He’s essentially in the same situation that Lebron was in Cleveland. You need 2, even 3 guys who can get the job done with the ball in their hands.

If Miami wins the title in their 1st year together, you may see all of the top free agents from now on trying to group themselves with other good players who can’t get over the hump. That means Howard will go to LA to join Kobe . . and Paul will go to NYC to join Melo and Amare.

If the Heat win with 2 superstars, one star, and a bunch of scrubs, that should change how GMs who want to win a title, should think. It worked for Boston. It worked for LA once they got Gasol. And it may work for Miami.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 23rd, 2011
1:48 pm

I picked Miami in 7 in the conference finals before the playoffs started and I see no reason to back down from that now. The Bulls are just last year’s Cavs or the ‘01 Sixers reincarnated, but I do think they can win two more games in this series. You can’t win championships, though, when one guy has to shoulder all the offensive responsibility.

Where I disagree though is in the implication that the Hawks’ situation relates to either of these teams. The Heat have two guys who can create offense (three if you are a Bosh fan which I am not). The Bulls have one. At least against good teams, the Hawks have zero. Joe Johnson is not on that level. We have already seen the results when Joe is asked to be the go-to guy in the playoffs. And if not having a go-to guy means the Hawks can’t win a title, then so be it. It’s not like that conclusion contradicts what we all know about this team anyway.

Najeh Davenpoop

May 23rd, 2011
1:53 pm

I still think (hope?) that the winner of the West series will win it all. I had OKC doing that before the playoffs started but now it looks more like it will be the Mavs. The Mavs certainly have the firepower, depth, and physicality to keep up with the Heat; whether they have the athleticism is the question they will have to answer.

ILL-Logical

May 23rd, 2011
2:38 pm

2011 Playoff success factors: defense,depth and desire. Well to quote the immortal Eleanora Fagan..”Thems that got will get.. thems that don’t will lose”

Grandad

May 23rd, 2011
2:50 pm

Now I have to ask;
what type personnel best fits “motion offense” ?

Inquiring minds wanta’ know ?

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
2:52 pm

Grandad what team is usiing motion out of the court teams still playing

Grandad

May 23rd, 2011
3:27 pm

Ramon

If you mean the final four of:
Dallas, OkC, Myme, Chi.
answer = none

Grandad

May 23rd, 2011
3:29 pm

Ramon

My question was in reference to discussion between
SteveW -&- northcyde.

northcyde

May 23rd, 2011
3:33 pm

The Hawks situation is the same situation that Minnesota was in back in the early 2000s. All they had was KG, Wally Szczerbiak, and Troy Hudson.

It wasn’t until they added reliable shot creators/makers like Sam Cassell and Latrell Spreewell ( two guys who couldn’t do it on their own all the time, but were good enough shot creators to win games on occasion ), that they made that leap from perennial 1st round and done playoff team, to a borderline championship caliber playoff team. If not for Sam Cassell’s injury, they may have beaten the Lakers in the WCF in 2004.

You add or develop more shotmakers to the Hawks, and we’ll advance further in the playoffs. And part of that is because we’ll play better during the regular season and have a better seed.

That’s the other thing that isn’t being discussed. The notion that the regular season doesn’t matter is straight BS. The regular season definitely matters, because it not only gives you more games on your home court, it enables you to possibly have an easier road in the playoffs.

Trojan

May 23rd, 2011
3:35 pm

I pick the ESPN Heat to beat the Chicago Bulls in 7 games. Then we will have the ESPN Heat playing the west team (who cares who). Hopefully the ESPN Heat will prevail because ESPN has already dispatched all of their reporters to cover the Heat and they have no one left to cover the other common teams.

Go Miami (ESPN) Heat!

O'Brien

May 23rd, 2011
3:38 pm

Ramon,

Assuming you are referring to Josh, he is not our best defender (imo). Josh is our best help/weak side defender, and he is our best defender of the rim. But overall, JJ is our best defender (imo). JJ can effectively guard 3 positions (PG, SG and SF) if he has to.

northcyde,

I think you will see more and more All-Stars getting together, which is why NJ better make some big FA moves this offseason (Jamal as their starting SG?), or they will lose D-Will next offseason. However, these starts will have to be willing to take paycuts with the new CBA.

As for the Hawks, Chills used to be our slasher. And although his jumper is ugly, he was money when he was open.

northcyde

May 23rd, 2011
3:46 pm

Grandad . . you need shooters to make the motion work. It doesn’t matter if its in the pros or college. If you don’t have guys who can knock down open shots, that offense will NOT work.

Legit basketball teams are not going to let you back cut them to death, or get easy shots 15 feet and in. They’re going to choke off the inside and make you beat them from the outside. And if a team running the motion offense can’t beat you from the outside, you’re dead in the water.

It helps if you have a penetrating PG who can create off the dribble to get himself or other people open shots. It helps if you have a slasher or a post player who is good around the rim. But you need at least 2, possibly 3 guys, who can consistently knock down open shots to make the motion work.

northcyde

May 23rd, 2011
3:50 pm

@ O’Brien . . And Chill would offensive rebound as well. It looks like we gambled on the wrong SF, seeing how Marvin has regressed over the past 2 years. Chill has regressed too, but he was a better fit here, especially when we got out and ran the floor.

Marvin’s regression has been a big detriment to this team. Sund’s and the ASG’s incompetence is greater though.

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
4:10 pm

You know what’s a scary thought is that Woody may have gotten the best of most of the guys here, minus Teague and potential one hit wonder Collins. The rest simply are not better than they were 2-3 years ago.

Marvin is another #2 so-so that was supposed to be oh-so much more.
Chills did regress once he left.
Al is not improving…I don’t care what all-accolade teams he belongs to.
Josh is a mixed bag.
Joe is a mixed bag.
Jamal lost his swagger many times this season. He was much more clutch in his 1st year here.

Since we now have more chaos with the Hawks’ exclusitivity deal dying, I don’t have a lot of hope for a bright future now we know the ASG is trying to ‘dump’ its holdings. They deserve to take a monetary bath after what they’ve put together for both teams.

O'Brien

May 23rd, 2011
4:15 pm

Chills was also a decent ball handler (Woody had him bring the ball up sometimes), and Chills would not fumble and stumble like Marvin. Rick gambled on Marvin and lost (he also gambled on Bibby and lost).

But I dont know what has happened to Chills’ game. Its one thing to miss shots, but prior to this season, he was a 80% FT shooter. But this year, he shot 49% from the stripes. Something is going on with him. When he was here, he averaged 30 mpg, but with Phoenix, he only averaged 17 mpg.

He has 4 years left on his deal, and Marvin has 3 years left on his deal. But if Phoenix would throw in Robin Lopez, or a first round draft pick, I would consider trading Marvin for him.

Speaking of Chills, I wonder if Rick has any plans to use the ~$3 mil TPE we acquired in the trade with Phoenix.

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
4:16 pm

Ob, Josh can guard 2-5 and be effective. Joe falls asleep too much on the defensive end and fails to rotate.

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
4:23 pm

Grandad the problem with the motion is the shooters it take to run it are often not the defenders that you need to be good in the playoffs.

Fundamentals

May 23rd, 2011
4:30 pm

Bulls are playing scared, like they are inexperienced, like they looked against us in Game 1. If they can regain that defensive intensity, there will be no series. Heat in no more than 6.

As for us, Collins did what he always did, don’t make it an ATL coaching bright spot. Dude has always been capable.

I agree, members of our team aren’t vastly improving. We had hopes for Josh at the onset of the season, but he took his confident, short range jumper and slowly crept out to the 3 pt line. He reverted back.

Al digressed this year, he lost any attempts at an inside game on both ends. He, Josh and Marvin refuse to rebound efficiently. Rebounding is a measure of effort and heart. All 3 would rather shoot jumpers.

Marvin – digressed every year since his contract. Dude is in it for the $$.

Joe – had physical issues, but more importantly we all know he lacks leadership and drive. We need a real alpha dog to motivate him…we all know that’s not coming. He’s an excellent compliment to the talent that isn’t developing on this team.

Teague – proved he 100% bought into “our system” of “play when it counts”. He wasn’t professional enough to stay ready and thus only really tried and flourished at key times…yes the playoffs, but dude needs to realize “our system” isn’t a good one. Hopefully he’ll bring intensity and leadership as his role expands on this team.

Jamal – we knew what he was, is and will be. Don’t knock him, just realize his role and coach him effectively. Shoot when you’re hot…splinters when you’re not.

I could go on and on…point is it’s on our players to find ways to improve this team this summer. We need a coach who can work with the guys to define roles, delegate responsibility and keep people hungry. We need a desperate, hungry bench hoping to prove themselves, not vet-mins who follow the lead.

Use the summer as a time to prepare…it’ll show next year, just like it did this year. We could easily be playing the Heat…instead we’re at home.

Is Chris Bosh only a 1/2 for playing his role? Seems they’re in position to do just what they planned to do, roll to the finals using him when the opportunity arises and Wade/Lebron when it doesn’t.

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
4:35 pm

I wonder what you would have to give up for Varajao. Honestly the starting lineup isn’t the problem as it is having good pieces coming off of the bench. So trading Crawford salary for Battier and Dalembert makes too much sense. And finding a way to bring in Prince for Marvin does as well.

The reason I suggest trades for Al is I believe he is the best asset to getting a star

Lebron James

May 23rd, 2011
4:37 pm

Al is not improving. Josh can improve by losing weight and getting his speed back so he can be the sparkplug he used to be before the Hawks committed to him as a 4. Now they want a center so they need him at the 3 now.

Marvin Williams is the odd man out talent wise. Since Horford’s offense becomes moot if you put a quick long defender on him the question is can Horford play center on a contender.

Horford theoretically could play center defensively on a winning team if you had:
Smith-{Dirk/Bosh/Stoudemire}-Horford.
Lebron-Smith-Horford
maybe even Carmelo-Smith-Horford

but the fundamental ability to defend and rebound is not found on this undersized SF-PF-C combo.
Williams needs to be moved in any trade

Booo!

May 23rd, 2011
4:39 pm

SteveW,

Gladyr play better D than Jamal IMHO. He at least tries to slow the opposition down with at least a foul instead of just watching them waltz into the paint. Sy has a lot of potential, mainly due to his age and measurements but still. He, fits the mold of a bruce bowen type. Lockdown peremeter defender, but instead of being a shooter he slashes to the basket and draws fouls. I beleive he will get better with playing time, and I hope he is workinng on his jumper in his spare time.

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
4:41 pm

Fundamentals rebounding failures are not because of Al or Josh. They both ranked in the top 15.. You can’t ask for more. The rebounding problem is the backcourt doesn’t. Box out and no one on the bench sells out for rebounds. The only time Zaza rebounds iswhen he plays 23 minutes. Or more

Trojan

May 23rd, 2011
4:41 pm

Seems everyone regressed on the Hawks this year. What do they all have in common? Coaching?

Ramon

May 23rd, 2011
4:43 pm

The ultimate trade for the Hawks is Joe for Gasol.

Booo!

May 23rd, 2011
4:47 pm

I bleleive we now have more than a few playmakers:

Joe, Jamal(if he comes back), Teague, Kirk (to some extent), and Smoove.

I would love to swap marvin for an explosive derrick williams lol, but i’m satisfied with just shipping him outta here (hopefully on draft day). Does anyone think DET wouls swap prince for him on D-Day?

We mainly need VERY GOOD role players now though (shooters and defenders)….and another post presence (I’m gonna go try marvin etc. for nene in the trade machine)

Booo!

May 23rd, 2011
5:05 pm

Maybe we should take a look at wilson chandler?

Rod from College Park

May 23rd, 2011
5:09 pm

Two thing from the Chicago, Miami series stand out to me. Miami has been making Derek Rose go left, and he has a much harder time scoring when he is forced to go left. I stated that when we were playing them. They are defending him well with Bibby, because once he penetrates guys like Joel Anthony come over and take the correct angles to affect his shots, or they put him on his back, which is something that Al Horford failed to do one time in our series. Contain Derek Rose, you contain the Bulls. The Heat, and the Mavs will be in the finals, with the Mavs taking home the trophy. They will have to much depth for the Heat to compete.

Melvin

May 23rd, 2011
5:25 pm

Only if Marvin “wasn’t such a bad pick”, we could send him to the Cavs for their TPE like I suggested the other day…

“the Cavaliers offered the fourth pick to the Memphis Grizzlies for high-scoring small forward Rudy Gay, using the trade exception they received from the Miami Heat in the LeBron James sign-and-trade deal to absorb Gay’s salary, “

Najeh Davenpoop

May 23rd, 2011
5:39 pm

“He has 4 years left on his deal, and Marvin has 3 years left on his deal. But if Phoenix would throw in Robin Lopez, or a first round draft pick, I would consider trading Marvin for him.”

Co-sign. And yes, at their current trade values, Phoenix would have to throw in someone else to make it work.

I wonder if they would give up their #13 pick to dump Childress’ salary for Marvin. Mickael Pietrus wouldn’t be a bad pickup either.

bigdave

May 23rd, 2011
5:49 pm

“All I know is that the opponents we face aren’t trying to stop Horford or Smith . . they’re trying to stop Johnson at all costs. And the reason for that is because Horford and Smith are highly dependent on others to score the basketball. JJ, on the other hand, will light most people up if single covered.”

exactly.. and while everyone tries to sh!t on Bosh.. he showed you last night exactly what Al Horford wasnt capable of doing..

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
5:50 pm

Ok, so people here think that Sund has the ability to bring in any free agents? Who has he talked into coming to Atlanta?

Josh Powell (minimum)
Randolph Morris (who ended up calling him and never gave the effort)
Flip Murray (minimum – IMO as good as Jamal Crawford was for us)
Etan Thomas (minimum – the whole blog here was anxious with anticipation who would be our 3rd-4th string center)
Joe Smith (minimum – another Rick Sund coup)
Jason Collins (minimum, who got paid 2 years for 1 serviceable year)

Did I forget any big name FA yet? Anybody?

Point is, I see all the suggestions, and what is the truth is that Sund depends on the draft more than any other facet. We know where we are for next month, so don’t expect a lot of hoopla.

Anyone going to next month’s draft party? You think the beloved ASG will hold one? I can’t wait to hear the way Rathburn explains how we got a 2nd round guy who can step right in and give us meaningful minutes. And he will probably be versatile too! We don’t have a combo PG-C yet.

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
5:52 pm

Would you agree that Sund’s best moves are deals with teams who think their trash is our treasure? So far…

Marvin

May 23rd, 2011
6:14 pm

I heard on hoopsworld.com that the hawks are willing to trade josh smith to L.A. for chris Kaman.

O'Brien

May 23rd, 2011
6:25 pm

KevinM,

There was also Mo Evans. But to get him to come here, Rick had to give him a 3rd year player option.

I think Rick is better at trades. At draft picks, lets not forget this is the same guy who drafted Johan Petro, Robert Swift, and Saer Sene, all in the first round.

Najeh,

I dont think Phoenix would give up Pietrus. He only has 1 year (player option) left, and if if they throw him into the deal, Hawks would have to match salaries. I would do Marvin for Chills and #13 pick though.

Ramon,

JJ does fall asleep at times on defense, but Josh is not a good “one on one” defender, especially if he is going up against a SG or SF (imo).

Najeh Davenpoop

May 23rd, 2011
6:26 pm

Yeah, here’s the hoopsworld article. They pretty much just read Schultz’s article and then speculated on top of that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they even got that idea from the blog comments on his article. Typical media nonsense.

Neki Ecko

May 23rd, 2011
6:49 pm

It seems like the ASG wants to contiune the nightmares of the Hawks fans, with them pull out of that deal(I swear that whole thing was rigged but that just me), I think that they wont do any deals since we are good anyway, I hate them with every fiber of my being.

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
6:50 pm

OB, Rick is average at best…..if you look at each year’s roster, the roster did not improve top to bottom to consider this team a contender. I disagree totally after watching the last 4 playoff years. The influx of talent has been marginal at best……

Its painful to watch up ‘creep’ up the hierarchy and other teams are just jackhammering the door in.

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
6:53 pm

Rick riding the coattails of one Billy Knight and not looking like he wants to make a ‘major’ move.

Yes, his hands are tied, yes, he had to accept Drew even though he wanted another assistant. Excuses are excuses for those who don’t get the job done.

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
6:53 pm

Wow, that was quick, Rich Cho out as GM in Portland….

Would they be interested in a stable 31 year company man?

KevinM

May 23rd, 2011
7:25 pm

Rumor: Cavaliers try to offer No. 4 pick for Rudy Gay

Read more: http://hoopshype.com/twitter_media.html#ixzz1NDl5QrXg

What can we get that pick for?

ag

May 23rd, 2011
7:28 pm

OBrien, never really watched him play (Chills), but I would make the trade straight up. Honestly, I would trade Marvin for ANY forward in the league, even Boris Diaw,- whom I fell is the worst in the league.

ag

May 23rd, 2011
7:31 pm

I would love Lopez, but that will not be the deal breaker

Najeh Davenpoop

May 23rd, 2011
7:42 pm

The #4 pick in this draft is pretty worthless in my opinion. Derrick Williams will be a star and Kyrie Irving will be a very good player, but everyone past them is as likely to be a journeyman/role player as they are to be a star of any kind. Whoever is drafted at #3 or #4 is going to get paid a lot more money for basically the same amount of expected production as whoever is getting picked around #20.

ag

May 23rd, 2011
7:50 pm

Like I posted before, we need role players. We can build from our “core”. Adding Josh Powell to the core will not make it better. Adding Wilson Chandler or another shooter – maybe in the draft will make us better. I would love Derrick Williams in Atlanta, if we trade Joe to Cleveland – getting rid of that contract will allow us to build a solid bench. Horford may develop into a 20 -10 guy.

Grandad

May 23rd, 2011
8:06 pm

northcyde

Good to know.

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