Atlanta Hawks: The Chicago Way?
The Hawks need to get better. The Bulls needed to do the same last summer and Al said the Hawks might learn something from the way they went about it.
“That’s the perfect example,” he said. “They got that kid Asik. They got Korver, a shooter. They addressed their needs and got better. That’s a blueprint that I think if I’m the team I would look at.”
So let’s look at what the Bulls did last summer and see if the Hawks can copy the same formula:
- Al’s theory falls apart from the start: The Bulls had just $34 million in committed salaries for 2010-11 after clearing space to get in on the 2010 free-agent bonanza. The Hawks have about $67 million in committed salaries mostly because of J.J. and Smoove’s contracts and Al’s extension.
- The Bulls cleared more cap space by trading Hinrich and a first-round pick to the Wizards for a second-round pick. The Wizards coveted Hinrich and were willing to take on his $17 million salary. The Hawks don’t have a first-round draft pick. They also aren’t under the cap and so can’t make such a trade without taking back salary (under the current rules).
- The Bulls hired a coach with a single-minded obsession with defense (and didn’t break the bank to do it). L.D. talked a lot about defense when he was hired, too, but his personnel decisions usually didn’t match the talk. (The Hawks did end up playing good D in the playoffs and L.D. deserves some credit for that, especially his decision to use the Twin lineup against Orlando. But D was neither a big part of the team’s culture nor was it usually at the forefront of the way L.D. distributed minutes among his backcourt.)
- The Bulls signed Boozer for five years and $80 million. The Hawks don’t have cap space so they can’t outright sign such a player even if they wanted to pay the tax. But let’s go ahead and say the contract for J.J. last summer was their Boozer move.
- The Bulls signed Korver for 5 years and $15 million (the final year is partially guaranteed). They could do that because they had cap space. The Hawks can’t because they don’t.
- After the Magic matched their offer sheet to Redick, the Bulls signed Ronnie Brewer for two years and $9.5 guaranteed. The Hawks can’t do a deal like that because . . . well, you know.
- The Bulls signed Asik for two years and $3.6 million. They had acquired him in a 2008 draft-night trade with Portland in which they sent away three second-round picks. Maybe Pape Sy or Gladyr can be the next Asik?
- The Bulls acquired Watson in a sign-and-trade with Golden State. The deal was for two years and $7 million guaranteed. They could do this because of their cap room.
- The Bulls signed Bogans, Kurt Thomas and Scalabrine to minimum-salaried contracts. The Hawks presumably make similar moves, depending on the details of the new CBA.
Clearly, because of salary commitments already on the books, the Chicago Way can’t be the Hawks’ Way.
What’s next?
I know there are lots of questions about what the Hawks can and should do. Honestly, they are difficult to answer without knowing what the new CBA rules will look like. The players quickly rejected the league’s latest offer, which reportedly proposed a hard salary cap and salary rollbacks.
What will be the amount of the salary cap? What about the luxury tax? Will there be an amnesty provision to allow teams to shed salary? Will there still be cap exceptions and, if not, what about those teams whose payrolls are above the new salary cap?
“As players we are just trying to do the right thing for current players and the players that are going to come behind us and for what the players before us worked so hard for,” Hinrich said. “We’ll see. Right now it probably looks like July 1 we are going to be locked out. For now, it’s up in the air.”
Under the current rules it’s hard to see how the Hawks could even fill out the roster with the minimum 13 players without paying the tax. Right now their options are limited to trades and using exceptions to acquire players whose salaries that don’t put them over the tax level. Assuming the tax threshold is about the same as it was the past three seasons, about $70 million, the Hawks would have roughly $3 million of wiggle room to sign six players.
Again, that’s based on the current rules and some assumptions. With the way things are going with the labor situation, who knows what the new system will look like when the league starts playing basketball again. But clearly the Hawks, like all teams, are counting on new rules more favorable to owners.
L.D. didn’t want to get into exactly what he thinks the Hawks need because he hadn’t talked to Rick Sund or the owners yet. (Sund, by the way, says he’s not talking until after the team’s scouting combine, which ends a week from Wednesday). But I noted the team’s lack of scoring at the rim and also their low free-throw rate and asked if that’s something that can only change with different personnel.
“Possibly,” L.D. said. “A lot of that is simply making the wrong decision out of ball movement on when to attack or settling for jump shots. You guys heard me say time and time again how we just settled for jump shots. We did not do a good job collectively in attacking the glass and going to the basket. That’s personnel-driven.
“Once we do spread the floor and the ball is moved we have to be mindful of just attacking. You can’t be afraid; you can’t be intimidated. You have to go in there with authority. Players that want to get to the free-throw line, they seek bodies. For them it’s not always about finishing the shot, they seek bodies to draw the and-1. That is something we will have to evaluate.”
J.J. seemed to hit on a similar theme when asked about the team’s needs.
“For us it’s guys like blue-collar guys, guys who do a lot of dirty work and do a lot of things that don’t show up in stat book,” J.J. said. “Those are the kind of guys that can help us out. We will see what happens. We’ve gotten better each year. Our postseason [this year] was probably the best it’s been.”
L.D. never could get his team to completely shed its isolation tendencies. When they got open shots and made them, then the ball and players moved and the Hawks were difficult to defend. That’s what happened in Games 1 and 4 against the Bulls.
When the defensive pressure intensified, or when the wrong guys took the wrong shots, then the Hawks started isolating and were easier to defend. That’s what happened in the fourth quarter of Game 5, which ended up being a lost opportunity for the Hawks to win the series.
Does L.D. still think this group of players us capable of running his offense?
“I’m still hopeful we can do that,” he said. “I think Chicago, their defensive pressure was much more intense than Orlando. Sometimes when you are playing under pressure you get sped up and you start getting away from the game plan. I think a lot of what Chicago did had a lot to do with that. That being said, we did not get to our spots like we did against Orlando. That tells me that it was jut the pressure of their defense.
“It was the same coverage [as Orlando] but once we played out of that double team [the Bulls] weren’t as organized as Orlando. I’m not going to abandon something that has been good to us. We just have to do a better job playing out of pressure, double teams. You still have to make plays and in making plays have to move the basketball. I thought we did a great job against Orlando. The Chicago series we weren’t as good.”
Joe said the offense “was kind of up and down” this season.
“We was all trying to feel each other out as far as him implementing his system and us trying to learn it,” he said. “At the same time there are times we looked great. That’s something we can build on and look forward to next year.”
Notes
- Teague said he’s scheduled for an MRI on his right wrist on Tuesday to make sure there’s no ligament damage.
- L.D. on meeting with Sund and owners: “I give them my views and hear their views. You have to slowly and methodically take your time and assess this season and the personnel, talk about things we lack and we need to get better. Do we have those players to make us better in certain areas or do we have to go out and find those kind of players? We have to look at everything and analyze everything and come to a decision about certain things, not necessarily an agreement. I’ve been around for a long time and I know you don’t always agree but important to lay it out on the table and talk about it.”
- L.D. on the postseason: “The question I asked myself, looking at the postseason, is were we better prepared this season than we were last year? Did we compete at a higher level this year than last year? Did we accomplish more goals than last year? I am my biggest critic when it comes to team getting prepared and going out there and executing game the plan, and I thought the answers to all those questions were, ‘Yes.’”
- Al on possibly adding a full-time center: “It’s going to be an interesting offseason because I think there are probably going to be some changes. I think having a bigger player like that to help is always a great strength and a great help. We will see what happens. I do like playing power forward. I like playing the center, as well, but if we can have another bigger body that would be great.”
- Smoove on if he prefers to play the 3: “It is what it is. It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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476 comments Add your comment
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
2:33 pm
“We will see what happens. I do like playing power forward. I like playing the center, as well, but if we can have another bigger body that would be great.”
vs.
“It is what it is. It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
nuff said.
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
2:35 pm
take the pacifier out your mouth and work on what will make you a better asset to the TEAM.
DCBravosFan
May 14th, 2011
2:38 pm
Great write up, MC. As a longtime fan, I was only slighted encouraged by this postseason. The team has a collective effort issue, especially on D. They only rarely play hard for 48 minutes. Is it too late for LD to change the culture of the team? Are there any good assistants out there that the Hawks can bring in to teach – and preach – good D and consistent effort?
joey1
May 14th, 2011
2:38 pm
1st
DCBravosFan
May 14th, 2011
2:39 pm
Another thing. A couple of days after the Lakers were swept out of the playoffs, Kobe described this season as a “wasted year” because his team wouldn’t play for a championship. He may be a miserable person, but Kobe clearly has an insatiable desire to win. Is there any indication that anyone on the Hawks has anything even close to that kind of drive?
Houston Hawk
May 14th, 2011
2:41 pm
First!
Houston Hawk
May 14th, 2011
2:41 pm
Damn
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
2:41 pm
Even with the Hawks’ cap space issues, they could have probably done half the things on that Chicago list if they still had the assets they sent to Washington in the Kirk trade. Not that Kirk is a bad player, but that trade is unnecessary if LD plays Teague from day one.
BEN
May 14th, 2011
2:42 pm
FIRST
James on Pharr Rd
May 14th, 2011
2:42 pm
First time ever:
How about we start from the point of a new GM moving forward, then look at a 3million type coach with history. The rest is all logistics to me.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
2:46 pm
For one thing, I would definitely have supported a Marvin + first rounder in a salary dump to some team for a couple of second rounders trade, like what the Bulls did with Kirk.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 14th, 2011
2:47 pm
Did any one other than me notice that once Jamal came here, Marvin shot attempts went down alot?..Did any one notice Marvin was around 15ppg for 3 straight seasons until Jamal came?..
Atlanta Hawks: The Chicago Way? – Atlanta Journal Constitution (blog) :Google News
May 14th, 2011
2:48 pm
[...] Original post by Top Stories – Google News [...]
Benny
May 14th, 2011
2:51 pm
ASG has the 7th highest payroll in the league, but it is not well-spent at all. Way too much for JJ. Could have gotten 3 good role players for that money. Re-signing Marvin was a disaster. So what if he would have been offered more from someone else? Buy out his current contract, and let him sign with anyone he wants. Crawford’s salary is off the books. See ya, JC. Steve Belkin now appears to be a smart guy, since he did not wish to throw the bank at JJ back then. ASG management appears to be a colossal cluster-f#&k.
joethepoliceman
May 14th, 2011
2:53 pm
Why talk about what the Hawks can’t do? Instead focus on what they can do.
James on Pharr Rd
May 14th, 2011
2:53 pm
I think LD is likely to return as coach next year-his salary and contract fit with ASG MO. Nothing against him, but he is unlikely to warrant major long term changes by management involving any risk because he is dispensable in 2012 (expiring contract)
The Hawks best chance at moving forward is trading Joe’s contract which would likely need 2+ teams because of it sucks.Besides Lewis, Arenas and Roy(Whom I like) JJ is in the worst grouping of “Lemons” out there.
NagoyaHawk
May 14th, 2011
2:55 pm
Hello? Following the Bulls blue print hello? It’s not about who you get it’s about playing smart 1st and playing hard 2nd. Get that through your thick skulls ATL and you might win a conference semi-final for once in 44 years. Jeeze, the kind of thinking these guys have. They got the talent, just work.
Atlanta $pirit Group
May 14th, 2011
2:55 pm
The Winnipeg Hawks sounds good.
Michael Cunningham
May 14th, 2011
3:04 pm
@Najeh: “For one thing, I would definitely have supported a Marvin + first rounder in a salary dump to some team for a couple of second rounders trade, like what the Bulls did with Kirk.”
the key to that trade was that Grunfeld wanted Kirk, who had two years left on his deal and, as you say, isn’t a bad player. does anyone want Marvin with three more years on his deal?
Reggie
May 14th, 2011
3:11 pm
MC
As far as Josh Smith is concerned, it seems like that he is the best trade chip moving forward, do you think the Hawks will at least consider moving him this time around? especially with the limited amount of options they have?
Michael Cunningham
May 14th, 2011
3:11 pm
@DCBravosFan: “The team has a collective effort issue, especially on D. They only rarely play hard for 48 minutes. Is it too late for LD to change the culture of the team? Are there any good assistants out there that the Hawks can bring in to teach – and preach – good D and consistent effort?”
well, you saw what happened over the final four games, when L.D. preached about finishing strong and the players pretty much ignored him. they did “flip the switch” when it was time but i don’t think the Hawks have a collection of guys who will go all out defensively like the Bulls. i think that culture has to be developed by the head coach but the team’s best players also have to buy in and there have to be enough role players who bring that kind of attitude without needing to be coaxed.
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
3:13 pm
“It’s not about who you get it’s about playing smart 1st and playing hard 2nd.”
acquiring some pieces definitely will go a long way but you have a point. it wont matter who they bring in if that culture of passiveness, low effort play continues. the new guys, if starters, will just conform to the environment. Hawks do not play collectively night in and out.. move #1 needs to be acquiring a true identity and sticking w/ it for 82 games.
Michael Cunningham
May 14th, 2011
3:14 pm
@Reggie: “MC As far as Josh Smith is concerned, it seems like that he is the best trade chip moving forward, do you think the Hawks will at least consider moving him this time around? especially with the limited amount of options they have?”
i agree that Josh has the most trade value. (Hinrich, too, because he’s still productive and has an expiring $8 million deal.) the Hawks did dangle Smoove at the trade deadline but as far as i know talks never got serious. i think they have to consider doing it again this summer. his departure would leave be a big hole to fill with defense, rebounding and athleticism.
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
3:14 pm
“i think that culture has to be developed by the head coach but the team’s best players also have to buy in and there have to be enough role players who bring that kind of attitude without needing to be coaxed.”
CHURCH!
Mitch
May 14th, 2011
3:21 pm
Michael & Fellow Hawk Fans:
I need help understanding why LD and Rick Sund deserve mulligans this year. Sure—it was great to see the Hawks beat the Magic and win games 1 and 4 versus the Bulls—and as you said, MC, the defense was stronger in some of those efforts. However…
* The team started 6-0 (great!) and then went on to play a mere .500 ball the rest of the season.
* It no longer played consistently strong at home—in fact, there were numerous embarrassing blowout losses at home and not to just the NBA’s best teams.
* The coaching, for the most part, was too passive—roles were not clearly defined (would Jerry Sloane or any aggressive coach have had Josh Smith camping out on the 3 point line? Would he have tried to turn Al Horoford into a finesse player? Would he have run an offense that continued to stop dead in its tracks whenever Joe Johnson hogged the dribble?)
* The players were generally soft—MC, correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why the Hawks didn’t take it to the rim or get to the foul line nearly often enough, was that the players used LD’s so-called motion offense as an excuse to settle for jump shots, wasn’t this the truth? Everyone was happy to see Al Horford develop a 15 footer—but—he should have been our best banger and offensive rebounder—and yet Horford himself grew jumper happy and—like everyone else grew soft.
* Game 4 versus the Bulls—the players played with an energy level, an urgency and a determination that was rarely displayed all year (other than in little spurts)—and thus their win in Game 4, imo, was the best win of the year. What this showed, however, is what the team was capable of when it wanted to—which is why to see how comparatively lethargic they were in games 5 and 6 (back to what they were most of the season) was just another reminder why these players have been coddled and enabled.
* The poor handling of young players continued—had it not been for Hinrich’s injury—would we even have a remote sense of what G Jeff Teague is capable of? It wasn’t too comforting to watch JC2 go off for a string of 28 point nights after he was traded either. Menawhile, the remaining JC on the roster was never give a set of double and/or staggered screens versus the Bulls when they were playing inside his short after game one,
* As for Rick Sund—he’s the one who hired Drew—and he’s the one who so readily gave away draft picks—even sold one off (man that was lame) after giving us brief excitement in the draft with the JC2 trade. Funny that he isn’t even going to talk about the team until after the scouting combine—for a draft that he no longer has a first round pick in. Is it just me or does Rick Sund always seem like several days/weeks/months late and an idea short?
* I’ve been a Hawks fan since the days of Pistol Pete—and to be honest, I turned off more games in progress out of disgust this year than I ever have. The general passivity and lethargy of this team was that bad far too often—there was such little character in this team—and to now see Al Horford following suit makes me think that unless there is a new GM and head coach, the Hawks won’t be worth buying season tickets for or worth purchasing even the $199 DirecTV NBA Season Pass for. These Hawks were a rip-off and a major disappointment. Sorry to rant—but this is a whole year’s frustration gushed out into one post. Again—please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks, MC and friend, Mitch.
GT Alum
May 14th, 2011
3:35 pm
“his departure would leave be a big hole to fill with defense, rebounding and athleticism.”
Yeah, but part of the problem with Smoove this season is he took himself out of position to provide those things a lot of times. And playing him at SF, be it Collins or someone else at C, just gives him an excuse to sag away from the basket.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that this team has 2 starting PFs and only backup SFs and Cs. I know the Smoove trade rumors have been swirling for a while, and I’ve resisted them because of his talent, but you’ve got to wonder if he’s ever going to reach his potential, at least while he’s wearing a Hawks’ uni.
Of course, the problem with trading Smoove is even though he’s never been selected as an AS, he’s an AS talent. Can the Hawks get value in return for him?
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
3:38 pm
NagoyaHawk – Co-Sign
“The Chicago Way” is a mind-set !
It started with ”Thibs”
-Then- Rose bought in *[all in]
*(unlike Joe who’s sometimes in or out, on-board, but tepid)
-With- the best player all in everyone else had no choice but to follow.
Then there is Noah – “unbridled passion”
-And- a *[team] Commitment to Defense above All,
-Then- “Thibs” again holding ALL (everyone) accountable.
That, my friends is ” The Chicago Way ” !
northcyde
May 14th, 2011
3:40 pm
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
2:33 pm
“We will see what happens. I do like playing power forward. I like playing the center, as well, but if we can have another bigger body that would be great.”
vs.
“It is what it is. It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
nuff said.
**************************
I agree. And it shows that Horford really doesn’t want to play center, regardless of what he says about the position. He’s talked too many times about playing PF. Meanwhile Smith honestly doesn’t care where he plays. And I’m sure he knows that most of the fans DO NOT want him playing the 3, because of his poor outside shot. But Smith honestly doesn’t care where he plays. He just wants to play.
Please don’t go soft on us AL. What you need to do is get in the weight room, and add about 15 pounds to your frame. Come back to the Hawks at 6 – 10 . . 260 . . 265 lbs . . AND PLAY CENTER!!
Otherwise, either you or Smith may need to be traded.
mykhalc
May 14th, 2011
3:43 pm
LD is still part of the Woodson culture. this team’s culture will not changed until the pieces are changed. what here is ingrained…gotta change the pieces…
joey1
May 14th, 2011
3:43 pm
123.
Section 303
May 14th, 2011
3:54 pm
Michael, nice write up. Really good work!
I think it’s obvious there is going to be at least one major move. All signs point to Josh Smith getting traded, but who really knows? A lot of people who are alleged “in the know’ thought the Hawks would pass on signing Joe Johnson last summer and they were wrong.
I’m willing to bet that Marvin is not back next year. I think the Hawks would trade him for pair of shoes. But, hopefully, they can land a player that can contribute. I’m not holding my breath on that.
I got the impression that the Hawks were counting on the new CBA to baill them out of the Joe Johnson contract when it was signed last summer. Anyone else get the same feeling? They will probably end up with a little more wiggle room than it looks right now.
But, really…I think this lockout will go all season. The owners are looking to make major changes. The players will put up a fight. This labor situation is not going away anytime soon. I don’t think we will know the roster for next season until 2012, since that’s when next season will probably be.
northcyde
May 14th, 2011
3:55 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
2:41 pm
Even with the Hawks’ cap space issues, they could have probably done half the things on that Chicago list if they still had the assets they sent to Washington in the Kirk trade. Not that Kirk is a bad player, but that trade is unnecessary if LD plays Teague from day one.
***********************
Unnecessary if he played Teague AND Jordan from Day 1. Because I don’t think anyone was impressed with what Mo Evans brought to the table this year.
Bibby – JJ – Marvin – Smith – Horford
6th Jamal
7th Zaza
8th Teague
9th Jordan
10th Collins
Seeing that Marvin could somewhat play the 4 anyway, room could’ve been made to get Jordan at least a little playing time. And Jamal probably shouldn’t have been playing 30 minutes a night anyway, especially when he didn’t have it going or was getting lit up on defense. There were minutes there for both Teague and Jordan, had LD and this organization had the mindset that they were going to develop these players.
But they stuck with the vets. I wasn’t initially against that. But when things started to go downhill starting in February, that was the time to see if those young kids could help you a little more.
LOL . . so instead of still having Jordan here, and Bibby as a possible reserve shooter PG off the bench, with Mo and Jamal both gone . . . we now have Hinrich only, with Mo, Jamal, Bibby, and Jordan gone.
And we’d have that late 1st round draft pick.
SMH @ the ASG.
Honestly, this team could’ve looked like this going into the 2011 season
PG – Teague
G – JJ
F – Marvin ( I know, I know )
PF – Smith
C – Horford
G – Bibby ( expiring contract which could’ve been traded )
G – Jordan
PF – Jarvis Varnado ( with the 31st pick that we traded away for cash )
C – Zaza
C – Collins ( if you want to re-sign him )
1st round pick 2011
Free agent 2011
Heck . . I think a Teague – Jordan – JJ – Smith – Horford squad would’ve been interesting to see in 2011 as well.
Could’ve had 3 young pieces here, instead of one. Plus the option to add a free agent or two to the mix.
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
4:00 pm
MC – terrific article
1. Have the Hawks conducted exit interviews?
2. If so / or if when, would we be privy to some of the appraisals?
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
4:01 pm
Hatter,
From the previous blog:
“Sautee, I can appreciate that. I have no desire to misrepresent the the truth. I wasnt aware that Al had move up in the coaches eyes from number 26 at the center position to number 19.”
Ha! No man, you either don’t get it or you are purposely being obtuse.
Al tied with Josh (and Artest) at #19 among ALL players in the league, not centers. According to the coaches, there were only 18 players better on defense this year than Al.
Let me say that again: According to the head coaches, only 18 players were more deserving of All-Defensive team votes than Al Horford. Get it now?
Among centers he finished 6th behind DHoward, T. Chandler, Noah (who was listed as forward / center), TDuncan, and Chuck Hayes. That’s it. Every other center in the league finished below Al, who had the same number of first team votes as Noah and Duncan.
Hatter, you can try all you want to dismiss this voting, but it wasn’t a panel of sportswriters, it was the Head Coaches of the league. Three of them thought Al should be first team All-Defense. Now I can’t say I saw THAT from Al, but again, I think the coaches know a helluva lot more about their own game than any fan including you and me. They obviously put a greater premium on position defense than they do on shot blocking. Obviously. Or else Ibaka, Perkins, Nene, Bynum and Bogut would have been ahead of Al.
But they were not. Sorry, man but the coaches’ Kool-Aid tastes better than yours. You may not like his defense but the coaches sure do.
Boom Dizzle
May 14th, 2011
4:02 pm
the key to that trade was that Grunfeld wanted Kirk, who had two years left on his deal and, as you say, isn’t a bad player. does anyone want Marvin with three more years on his deal?
@MC — That’s a good point. At the same time, before the start of this season who would’ve thought some suck…err I mean team would take on the likes of Gil Arenas, Baron Davis and/or Rashard Lewis. Marvin isn’t untradable but expect someone else’s junk for him. At this point IMO that would be better….
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
4:14 pm
“there have to be enough role players who bring that kind of attitude without needing to be coaxed.”
Co-sign. The Hawks could really use a couple of Tony Allen/Shane Battier type players. Looking at Memphis, most of their key players (Randolph, Gay, Mayo, Conley, M. Gasol) have never been known as dominant defensive forces, but that team as a whole plays good D this year. Surely some of that has to do with Lionel Hollins, but I would think a lot has to do with the way Allen and Battier get after it on D. From what I’ve seen of Memphis, those two players’ defensive intensity is infectious.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
4:14 pm
“Unnecessary if he played Teague AND Jordan from Day 1. Because I don’t think anyone was impressed with what Mo Evans brought to the table this year.”
Until you mentioned him I had completely forgot that a) Mo Evans played for the Hawks this year and b) he was involved in that trade.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
4:18 pm
“Please don’t go soft on us AL. What you need to do is get in the weight room, and add about 15 pounds to your frame. Come back to the Hawks at 6 – 10 . . 260 . . 265 lbs . . AND PLAY CENTER!!”
Co-sign.
And work on your freakin’ post game before “expanding your range”.
hawkville
May 14th, 2011
4:23 pm
It wouldn’t hurt to coach the players u have. Give them something to work on during the summer. It’s all about coaching now and maximize the talent u have on your team. It’s enough talent.
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
4:25 pm
Al & Josh both answered the question judiciously.
Why do some of you insist on knowing what they really mean’t
or what they really want.
Everyone on this board knows we need a Big, at least one if not two.
If Al mentions the same thing;
it means he’s a sissy and secretly wants to be a ballet dancer.
I’m quite certain that northcyde has some sort of statistics which prove
he knows what people are thinking all the time even when they say something
oddly different from what he says they say they are saying
even though they said it, because it was what they were thinking and not what
they actually said, so they said what they said instead of what they thought.
That way we would only know what they said and not what they thought unless
they thought they said something they didn’t mean to say which would then mean
they said what they really mean’t which would then really throw off northcyde
because they would have not only said what they didn’t mean to say but what they
really mean’t.
Betcha’ can’t figure out what I’m thinkin’ right now.
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
4:27 pm
“L.D. talked a lot about defense when he was hired, too, but his personnel decisions usually didn’t match the talk.” -MC
This is why MC is the man. Right out of the box, he calls Hollinger, Bradley and Big Ray-endorsed Las Vegas Larry on the carpet for his disingenuousness. Now, to address something from the last blog:
“About this: “Hollinger, Bradley and Big Ray-endorsed Las Vegas Larry is here to stay though… the talking heads have spoken!”
I don’t think Big Ray “endorsed” LD as much as he acknowledged he was likely to return. When I read your post, I went back to Ray’s blog to check. It didn’t seem like an endorsement to me. I thought at MOST Ray was ambivalent regarding Drew, and raised several questions that we on the blogs have asked ourselves..
Was there a specific thing that made you think it was an endorsement?” – Sautee
Yes, there was this comment from Big Ray, Sautee: “Drew stays, and he won’t kill this team.”
Sure, he’s saying Drew stays as a statement of his opinion of what’s going to happen, not as an endorsement. But the phrase “he won’t kill this team” is an editorial statement. He’s saying Drew stays, and it’s good for the Hawks. That’s an endorsement.
I have a difference of opinion with Ray. I think Hollinger, Bradley and Big Ray-endorsed Las Vegas Larry has ALREADY killed the Hawks. Windows to compete for championships close FAST, just ask the Magic. This may have been the best chance the Hawks had or will ever have to win a championship. We failed to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals due to LD’s HORRIBLE personnel deployment, i.e. playing JC1 the ENTIRE 4th quarter of game 5 on a 1-for-9 shooting night and sitting Zaza, who had the best +/- in the postseason of any Hawk to play substantial minutes.
“Maybe Pape Sy or Gladyr can be the next Asik?”
Oh lawd. But again, thanks MC for calling out the ASG for not doing better than Hollinger, Bradley and Big Ray-endorsed Las Vegas Larry when CHI went out and got the best coach in the NBA for just over $2m a season. Thibs is still in the post season. Doc is not. Phil is not. Thibs has 3 fewer All Stars on his roster than Doc. One last time:
Terry Stotts
Lon Kruger
Mike Woodson
Larry Drew
Jody
May 14th, 2011
4:33 pm
I agree that Al needs to regain his physicality from earlier in the season, but him adding more muscle isn’t going to make him any more of a center than he already is. Face it folks, Al is a 4 and has always been one. The Hawks need to make a decision because Al and Josh will never be strong enough to deal with the frontlines of Chicago, Miami, LA etc… as a 4 and 5 combination. I know many wan to keep both players, but the Hawks will never become a title contender that way imho. They’re just not big enough.
myrak43
May 14th, 2011
4:36 pm
this is what we should do..
Pau, 2013 lottery protected 1st, and 2011 2nd for Marvin Williams and Horford. then get Tayshaun Prince via free agency. then go out and and shop in the Big and Tall store for free agents get two or three of Troy Murphy, Chuck Hayes, Carl Landry, Yi Jianlian, Tyson Chandler, Dalembert, Mohammed, and/or DeAndre Jordan. my dream would be to get Chandler I don’t think that is going to happen though. so realisticly Hayes and Landry. and maybe Yi (Yi would be mainly to increase the Hawks revenue by tapping in to atlanta’s Asian Market)
Teauge/ Kirk
J. Jonhson/ J.Crawford
J. Smith/ Tayshuan Prince
Landry/ Hayes/ Yi
Pau/ Zaza
big line up
Kirk
JJ
Smith
Pau
ZaZa
small line up
Teague
JC
Prince
Landry or Smoove
Pau
we can mix match lineups many ways
LinkReport this comment.myrak43
May 14th, 2011
3:53 pm
Landry, Prince, and Smoove all can play SF and PF. Pau and Hayes can play Center and PF
JJ can play SG and SF Kirk can play PG and SG.
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
4:40 pm
hawkville
NBA coaches don’t coach.
Coach synonymous with Teacher
NBA coach = Planner.
That was an overgeneralization.
A Good NBA Coach:
Has a superior will.
Is commited to “his” way whatever that is.
Hires good asst coaches, who are smarter than he is. [X's & O's]
Is competitive, Himself !
He must want to win as Russell & Jordan did, and Kobe does now.
A team usually takes on their coaches identity……….LD ?
Jody
May 14th, 2011
4:54 pm
In addition, the idea that Al wanting to play the 4 somehow makes him soft is absurd. It is what it is and the truth is the truth. Al is a power forward and I don’t see why it’s somehow more unfair for him to want to play his natural position than it is to force him to the 5 just so Josh can play the 4. Why anyone would want to continue with Al and Josh as the main 4, 5 combination is beyond me. The rebounding differential in the Chicago series should have closed the case. Playing two 4s (one undersized) up front is not going to cut it. The Hawks should cease from trying to force a square peg in a circle hole.
jason
May 14th, 2011
4:55 pm
Trading Jordan Crawford… Smh..
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
4:55 pm
“But the phrase “he won’t kill this team” is an editorial statement. He’s saying Drew stays, and it’s good for the Hawks. That’s an endorsement.!”
LOL, Buddy, if THAT’S an endorsement, it’s the weakest ass endorsement I’ve ever heard. We can disagree, but I personally think it’s a HUGE stretch to think that “he won’t kill this team” is an endorsement, which my dictionary defines as: “giving approval of or support to, especially by public statement”
How the F is “he won’t kill this team” which does NOT give approval or support to Drew mean the he’s saying it’s “good for the Hawks”?
To me, that’s about as lukewarm as Ray could have possibly been, but as Grandad says, some will only believe what fits their argument. So, respectfully, I’ll suggest that you might need a bigger shoehorn for this particular point. That’s my humble opinion.
myrak43
May 14th, 2011
4:57 pm
Jody Horford was playing the 4 in this years playoffs for the majority of the minutes he played. and he was still playing soft.
realatl
May 14th, 2011
4:58 pm
AT FIRST IDIDNT KNOW WHAT STEVE BELKIN WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT WHEN WE SIGNED JOE. BUT FROM A BUSINESS MAN POINT OF VIEW HE KNEW THIS WAS A STUPID MOVE FROM THE GET GO. AT FIRST I LIKED JOE BUT NOW I SEE WHERE HE DOESNT MIND SETTLING FOR JUMPERS OR LOSES. MAN WE SHOULDVE LISTENED TO BELKIN NOW WE SO TIED UP WITH JOE AN HIS SALARY WE HAVE HANDICAPPED OUR TEAM THROUGH JOE JOHNSON AN KIRK HINRICH KEEP JOSH AL AN JEFF TEAGUE EVRYONE ELSE FIND A WAY FOR THEM TO GO
realatl
May 14th, 2011
5:00 pm
KEEP JOSH SMITH AL HORFORD AN JEFF TEAGUE GET RID OF EVERYONE ELSE
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
5:05 pm
“Menawhile, the remaining JC on the roster was never given a set of double and/or staggered screens versus the Bulls when they were playing inside his shorts after game one.” – Mitch
I endorse this post!
“Then- “Thibs” again holding ALL (everyone) accountable.” – Grandad
Grandad, you only get a coach who holds players equally accountable for about $2m a season. ASG could only afford $1.5m so we get disingenuousness and double standards.
“Among centers he finished 6th behind DHoward, T. Chandler, Noah (who was listed as forward / center), TDuncan, and Chuck Hayes.” – Sautee
Um… let’s go get Chuck Hayes?
“It’s all about coaching now and maximize the talent u have on your team.” – hawkville
Co-sign. As MC catalogues, the Hawks have little wiggle room to make personnel changes (barring a major trade). The single most important factor influencing whether or not the Hawks improve next season is COACHING. The talent we have is the talent we have. Will Vegas be able to maximize it and take it farther than he did this year?
“Betcha’ can’t figure out what I’m thinkin’ right now.” – Grandad
LMAO. No I can’t… not on your level Grandad.
myrak43
May 14th, 2011
5:06 pm
realatl. plz stop it. JJ is hear we are not moving him. Infact JJ is not the problem. what the Hawks need is someone to score in the post. Pau Gasol, Carl Landry, Bogut, hell even Nazi Mahommand would help us out. see NBA playoffs are about the half court game. and the half court game is played inside out not outside in.
what I mean is you have to establish scoring in the low post for your opposition to respect you ablity to score inside. that will give you spacing so you can have open looks on the perimeter. if JJ had open looks and single coverage he would earn his contract.
mykhalc
May 14th, 2011
5:08 pm
as this team exists now the players KNOW they are NOT competin’ to win a championship…they are workin’ to get better…ONLY. Joe stated as much in MC’s article. and it’s always gonna be the case with this collection of players. they either know that the talent is not here or that the talent that is here will not work hard enough to actually compete for a championship. like i said, it’s ingrained at this point and the fact that this team has NO real leader then there is no one here now to lead them outta this abyss.
ChiTown
May 14th, 2011
5:11 pm
A couple of the posters have it right….its not about about the talent, its about playing smart and hard. With all other things being equal, does anyone think the Hawks would be a better team by bringing in Rose or Labron?
They would be better off spending their money on a coach who would demand 110% from all players at both ends of the court. They would quickly attract players willing to do what it takes, while those not willing to put forth the effort would fade out of the picture.
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
5:20 pm
Buddy Grizzard
nekkid Brazillian maidens
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
5:22 pm
Buddy,
Former USC running back Stafon Johnson dropped a weighted barbell on his throat and crushed his windpipe. But he didn’t die. So, following your logic, since it “didn’t kill him”, (like Ray said Drew “won’t kill this team”), Stafon endorses dropping a weighted barbell on your windpipe, right?
See how silly the reach of that logic is?
tyger
May 14th, 2011
5:25 pm
Excellent article…
1. Trades are the only route….
2. Marvin traded for a lottery pick…
3. Josh Howard, Caron Butler, Tracy McGrady available…
4. Hawks need a true 7”2 center not 6′10…
5. A slasher w/ handles that can play outside/in…
6. Jamal Crawford sign&trade for JR Smith…
7. Not sold on Teague as starter…cant shoot…
8. Smoove is heart/soul, despite mental lapses…
9. LD did a great job for us, regular season is irrelevant…
10. Hawks have to look to D-league for hidden gems…
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
5:25 pm
“Menawhile, the remaining JC on the roster was never given a set of double and/or staggered screens versus the Bulls when they were playing inside his shorts after game one.” – Mitch
I endorse this post!
“Then- “Thibs” again holding ALL (everyone) accountable.” – Grandad
Grandad, you only get a coach who holds players equally accountable for about $2m a season. ASG could only afford $1.5m so we get disingenuousness and double standards.
“Among centers he finished 6th behind DHoward, T. Chandler, Noah (who was listed as forward / center), TDuncan, and Chuck Hayes.” – Sautee
Um… let’s go get Chuck Hayes?
“It’s all about coaching now and maximize the talent u have on your team.” – hawkville
Co-sign. As MC catalogues, the Hawks have little wiggle room to make personnel changes (barring a major trade). The single most important factor influencing whether or not the Hawks improve next season is COACHING. The talent we have is the talent we have. Will Vegas be able to maximize it and take it farther than he did this year?
“Betcha’ can’t figure out what I’m thinkin’ right now.” – Grandad
LMAO. No I can’t… not on your level Grandad.
“They would be better off spending their money on a coach who would demand 110% from all players at both ends of the court.” – ChiTown
Can’t afford $2m per season for a coach that demands accountability ChiTown. I mean we can spend $126m all day for players with no heart, but $2m a season for a real coach? Not this organization.
“You might need a bigger shoehorn…” – Sautee
I got my jumbo shoehorn, my tinfoil hat, and I’m sticking to my guns here.
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
5:29 pm
“Stafon endorses dropping a weighted barbell on your windpipe, right?” – Sautee
You missed your calling sir… philosophy professor, emphasis in logic.
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
5:31 pm
Whoops my bad on the double post.
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
5:41 pm
I wonder what you can get for an ISO+Alice package deal? Maybe an ECF next year????
Kick rocks Alice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “He’ll escort you right to the rim”.. A buster like your Bro from another mother…………………………………….
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
5:44 pm
Coach Hollis definitely beats Chicago with the Hawks squad!!
Larry was Lame…………………….
Grandad
May 14th, 2011
5:45 pm
G-Dad’s trade of the day:
(this one is predicated on moving Joe for a Big)
*[in a contiguous deal]
Josh & Marvin to Houston;
—for—
Kevin Martin & [..Brad Miller or Hasheem Thabeet..]
(whichever bad contract Houston wants to shed most)
+ Plus + Houston’s [second] 1st round pick.
# 23 & use it to select Justin Harper, Richmond.
At this point, I think Justin Harper is my early favorite
to be a draft steal as was Tibor Pleiss last year.
(whom we stole then sold) [for $3m]
$3m = 2 yr sal for LD, that’s about right.
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
5:46 pm
Allstar-Al=fake power forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
5:46 pm
Hollins^^^^^
bigdave
May 14th, 2011
5:49 pm
“Why do some of you insist on knowing what they really mean’t
or what they really want.
Everyone on this board knows we need a Big, at least one if not two.”
what do you mean? what they really meant, is, or should be, exactly what they said. see, when you combine what Al said here, w/ what he said on the all Nba Al blog its quite obvious even if he was being “judicious”. what we really need is the bigs currently on payroll to play as bigs on both sides of the floor, see Al can start by helping himself.
what that quote does reveal is the mindset of one player who is willing to do whatever it takes for his team, vs one who feels the team should cater to his wishes. he’s forcing the hand of the team by going out and working on PF/SF game. people only say he’s a natural PF b/c he physical looks the part.. but he naturally plays w/ the skill of a C. so he’d rather work on what doesnt come as natural rather than bulk and man up and play his role on the Hawks. it comes down to who’s the best PF b/c im not sure i want this guy playing C for me, not w/ that mentality.. now way.
pff.. and this is the “leader” so many of yall make him out to be.. Josh’s play and words look more to part.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
5:55 pm
Buddy,
“You missed your calling sir… philosophy professor, emphasis in logic.”
How do you know that I’m not?
But you dodged my question. You can stick to your guns all you want, but it’s completely faulty logic to say that because Big Ray said “Drew won’t kill this team”. that he thinks it’s “good for the Hawks” for Drew to stay, and that he “endorses” Drew staying, as my Stafon example showed.
But hey, no one said fanhood was ever logical.
wordsmithtom
May 14th, 2011
5:59 pm
Excellent write up.
I’m of a mind that the trade for Kirk was an admission that JC1 would be leaving. Bibby would soon be a backup to whomever became the point, and he wouldn’t take that role gracefully. We probably gave up a late first round draft pick, but we got experience and defence in Kirk, and JC1’s money can be used for a backup 5. Assuming Teague works on his outside shot this summer and comes in with a leader’s attitude, he’ll be the starting point. Kirk then backs him and JJ with slightly less offense, but much better defense than JC1.
Marvin can return to a 3′rd scoring option.
JJ is not a problem….but he is not the killer who can will this team to greatness.
jason
May 14th, 2011
6:12 pm
Center that will affect this team without trading the “core” Deandre Jordan. Small foward…….. IRDK
Tell the truth
May 14th, 2011
6:17 pm
The Hawks are still in big trouble- they are a jump shooting team with no one who really drives to the hoop other than Teague. They desperately need a big man who can defend AND score. They also need some better talent on the bench- Their bench is terrible.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
6:17 pm
wordsmithtom,
“JJ is not a problem….but he is not the killer who can will this team to greatness.”
And THAT’S the problem, in that we are paying him such big money despite him not having that kind of “will”. So his contract is an albatross on serious improvements. I don’t think ANY team staying under the luxury tax can afford to pay $16+ M a year for a complementary player vs. a “big dog”.
tom
May 14th, 2011
6:28 pm
JJ needs a post up game with a turnaround jumper like jordan had in his later years. He’s got the size and skill to do it.
Rusty
May 14th, 2011
6:53 pm
Mitch just read your blog at 3:21 agree with everything you said
ken
May 14th, 2011
7:12 pm
Congrats to the Hawks for a real good season from a Bulls fan. Let me say this, you guys would be crazy to trade Josh smith. He is so talented, and a great competitor. I agree Joe johnson is off an on with his intensity, but what you need to add is a true leader to your team. Someone to get in the face of his teammates and lead them. The hawks lack that more than anything. The only player I would trade is Crawford. I like him as a young man, I remember when the Bulls drafted him, but my friends he is not a winner. For whatever reason. I was always confident in the Bulls winning because i know he is so proned for bad shots, which has been his tradmark. you can have talent, but if you dont know how to use it, its kind of a waste. I am not sure about your coach, I think you need a kick ass kind of coach as well. Cause thibs dont take no sh** from know one, including Rose. see ya, Hawks/bulls conference finals 2012!!!!
Rusty
May 14th, 2011
7:24 pm
The hawks were a better team under woody. Orlando was not the same team as before. JJ needs to go as he will always want to dominate the offense. Ld did not bring anything but dumbness to this team.
RM
May 14th, 2011
7:27 pm
Trade Josh while you can. Stuck with Joe , nobody will take that ridiculus contract. Crawford sabotaged this series b/c he didn’t have a new contract.
superiorblogman
May 14th, 2011
7:29 pm
MC:
You are okay with me but you are wrong as they come on your numbers. The Hawks have $64.268.493 million in reported salary going into next year. Where you are getting the extra $3 million from I have no idea. The Hawks paid out $70.927.923 million this year and did not go into luxury. That means the Hawks have about $6.5 million to spend going into next year before they hit the luxury if all things remained the same in the new CBA or got better. The current mid level exception is less than $6.5 million so the Hawks can be a player for a center such as
1 Dalembert
2 Oden
I think both of those guys are looking at mid level exceptions, but the Hawks can offer slightly more than the mid level exception. They could then split there mid level exception between 2 guys that are needed.
Lastly, let’s not get carried away with the Bulls there model is nothing special. Loul Deng’s contract looked bad a couple of years ago, Noah was a guy that did not get along with teammates in his first couple of years, they did not exactly nail it with draft picks like Tyrus Thomas or he would still be with them. The Bulls model is built around getting lucky with those ping pong balls. Derrick Rose makes Deng and Noah look better than what they are. He makes them forget about Tyrus Thomas as a lottery pick. They simply got lucky the guy has been in the league 3 years and already MVP, get serious, the only way we can follow that is if Teague has a MVP caliber season next year or we pull off a trade to get Derrick Williams and he is a bonafide superstar from the moment he steps on the court. It’s one thing to give the Bulls credit its another to blow them fully out of proportion.
Rusty
May 14th, 2011
7:30 pm
Tom when did you ever see Joe do anything but hold on to the ball. He doesn’t drive hard ever,did anyone ever see him finish a fast break unless he had no one on him. I am so over JJ,I don’t think we can have an NBA offense with him in the lineup & ld has hurt this team so many ways.
superiorblogman
May 14th, 2011
7:48 pm
superiorblogman
May 14th, 2011
7:29 pm
MC:
You are okay with me but you are wrong as they come on your numbers. The Hawks have $64.268.493 million in reported salary going into next year. Where you are getting the extra $3 million from I have no idea. The Hawks paid out $70.927.923 million this year and did not go into luxury. That means the Hawks have about $6.5 million to spend going into next year before they hit the luxury if all things remained the same in the new CBA or got better. The current mid level exception is less than $6.5 million so the Hawks can be a player for a center such as
1 Dalembert
2 Oden
I think both of those guys are looking at mid level exceptions, but the Hawks can offer slightly more than the mid level exception. They could then split there mid level exception between 2 guys that are needed.
Lastly, let’s not get carried away with the Bulls there model is nothing special. Loul Deng’s contract looked bad a couple of years ago, Noah was a guy that did not get along with teammates in his first couple of years, they did not exactly nail it with draft picks like Tyrus Thomas or he would still be with them. The Bulls model is built around getting lucky with those ping pong balls. Derrick Rose makes Deng and Noah look better than what they are. He makes them forget about Tyrus Thomas as a lottery pick. They simply got lucky the guy has been in the league 3 years and already MVP, get serious, the only way we can follow that is if Teague has a MVP caliber season next year or we pull off a trade to get Derrick Williams and he is a bonafide superstar from the moment he steps on the court. It’s one thing to give the Bulls credit its another to blow them fully out of proportion.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm
truhawkfan
May 14th, 2011
7:59 pm
I think that they should keep JJ,JT,Smoove,and Al everyone else can go unless they find away to keep JC and then all the rest can go.I really hope they don’t trade J-smoove cause that is a big hole to fill if they get rid of him. They need a center and a small foward cause what I saw JT held his own at the 1 spot and JJ is still one of the best shooting guards in the league if not he would not get so much attention.Smoove is a all around player on the floor cause he does so much on the floor blocks,steals,scores,rebounds,and a big man who dishes assists.Al is a knock down shooter from mid range and rebounds and come up with some assists and does a liittle dirty work.JC still the best 6th man to me and is a offesive threat when he gets it going only liability is defense but when scoring he can cover that up. IMO the line up should be
pg-JT
sg-JJ,JC
sf-?
pf-J-smoove
c-Al,Horford
then they can fill in the rest with good quality bench players and starting small foward all of whom are defensive minded with the ability to knock down open shots.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
8:06 pm
Hatter,
“Sautee I wasnt aware that Al had move up in the coaches eyes from number 26 at the center position to number 19. Good job. LOL. I feel you. You are a loyal Al supporter even when ignoring facts and totally relying on opinions.”
I guess I’ll have to repost this, since you obviously missed it:
“Sautee, I can appreciate that. I have no desire to misrepresent the the truth. I wasnt aware that Al had move up in the coaches eyes from number 26 at the center position to number 19.”
Ha! No man, you either don’t get it or you are purposely being obtuse.
Al tied with Josh (and Artest) at #19 among ALL players in the league, not centers. According to the coaches, there were only 18 players better on defense this year than Al.
Let me say that again: According to the head coaches, only 18 players were more deserving of All-Defensive team votes than Al Horford. Get it now?
Among centers he finished 6th behind DHoward, T. Chandler, Noah (who was listed as forward / center), TDuncan, and Chuck Hayes. That’s it. Every other center in the league finished below Al, who had the same number of first team votes as Noah and Duncan.
Hatter, you can try all you want to dismiss this voting, but it wasn’t a panel of sportswriters, it was the Head Coaches of the league. Three of them thought Al should be first team All-Defense. Now I can’t say I saw THAT from Al, but again, I think the coaches know a helluva lot more about their own game than any fan including you and me. They obviously put a greater premium on position defense than they do on shot blocking. Obviously. Or else Ibaka, Perkins, Nene, Bynum and Bogut would have been ahead of Al.
But they were not. Sorry, man but the coaches’ Kool-Aid tastes better than yours. You may not like his defense but the coaches sure do.
Hatter, go ahead and try to make a story released by the league about the All-Defensive Team into “opinion” and not factual. Best of luck, there.
One other thing…aren’t you the same person who said all season long that Teague deserved his dnp-cds and belonged on the bench because he was, as you put it a “turnover machine”? My, my, how things can change. LMFAO!
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
8:25 pm
ken (poster from Chicago),
Thanks, man. Thanks for the politeness, too. Refreshing.
Y’all are fun to watch and I’d love nothing more than to see you sweep the Heat.
J Smoove
May 14th, 2011
8:35 pm
I like to take crazy jump shots that i know i cannot hit. it is what it is…
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 14th, 2011
8:37 pm
As you can see Marvin was around the 14ppg for 3 seasons in a row..so what changed the last 2 years?..JAMAL CRAWFORD..When he came, Marvin numbers went down, because Jamal is a volume shooter and he and joe jacked up a lot of shots…I can’t wait until Marvin leaves and come back to score 20 in the “highlight factory”!
‘05-’06 ATL 8.5
‘06-’07 ATL 13.1
‘07-’08 ATL 14.8
‘08-’09 ATL 13.9
‘09-’10 ATL 10.1
This year 10.4
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 14th, 2011
8:39 pm
WOW! Boy this fan base is horrible and know nothing about basketball
This was Marvin’s best year ‘07-’08 ATL 424-918 .462 ..Notice the good FG%..He was hurt in 08-09, but look at his attempts in ‘09-’10 ATL 302-664 .455 ..that’s 300 less shots…look at Jamal stats 09-10 ATL 496-1,105 0.410%..Marvin production only went down due to JAMAL jacking up more shots…Jamal jacked up over 1000 shots and everyone wonder why Marvin stats dropped!
RA
May 14th, 2011
8:52 pm
I know how they can get better. It’s something none of them will want to do. Restructure your contracts so that the team has more fiscal wiggle room. To a man most of the Hawks have said that the team needs to be upgraded. Don’t talk about it, be about it. Get with your agents, restructure your deals and go into next season with a team more like the Bulls have. Either that, or rely on the next Etan Thomas that the team can get ahold of at a bargain basement price.
Buddy Grizzard
May 14th, 2011
9:02 pm
Former USC running back Stafon Johnson dropped a weighted barbell on his throat and crushed his windpipe. But he didn’t die. So, following your logic, since it “didn’t kill him”, (like Ray said Drew “won’t kill this team”), Stafon endorses dropping a weighted barbell on your windpipe, right?
Well I was keeping it light and not looking for an argument but, if you insist…
Your Stafon argument is a strawman whereby you are equating my assertion with the absurd idea that an athlete “endorses” something that nearly killed him. Obviously my assertion that Big Ray “endorses” Larry Drew’s continuation as head coach of the Hawks is a (playful) exaggeration. If he was litterally “endorsing” Drew’s status as coach, he would say something like “I think Drew should remain as coach.”
What he does instead is break the bad news to Hawks fans that ownership is highly unlikely to fire Drew, subject themselves to a coaching search and eat the last year of his contract. While he does this, he offers the reassurance to the fan base that Drew’s continuation in the capacity of head coach “won’t kill the team.”
To me, this is the equivalent of saying, “Drew will remain as coach, but hey Hawks fans, it could be worse, at least they’re not firing Drew and hiring superiorblogman in his place.”
This reassurance from Big Ray rings so hollow to me, and is so unambitious, that I have decided to shoehorn Big Ray in with other media who have said Drew should remain in his position. Saying Drew won’t kill the Hawks is like saying, “Hey we’ll never win a championship with Drew as coach, but our mediocrity is in no immediate danger.”
dap01
May 14th, 2011
9:08 pm
Why was Al so soft this post season? That is disturbing.
However, I do agree with LD. I want a jump shooting, ISO team for the playoffs. I also want to demand perfection from rookies and let my power forward camp out at the 3 point line. I know basketball and the rest of the league can keep playing their way.
Offense wins, jumpshoots win.
Larry Drew
cdog
May 14th, 2011
9:15 pm
larry dew grew up as an NBA head coach this season. he should be brought back next year..next move should be to release rick sund as GM and bring in a GM like the falcons have in thomas dimitroff who only cares about winning a championship and not looking for excuses like the salary cap as sund usually does. he also wastes draft picks on players who will never suit up for the hawks or who can’t play in the CBA.the cap don’t stop the championship teams from getting the best players.sund is a poor excuse for a GM.he only holds the francise back.replacing him should be the first move then the next should be to bring Dwight howard home to the wks so we can start planning to play for the NBA title next year.sund is too stupid to be a GM in the NBA
Write right
May 14th, 2011
9:26 pm
This is probably a good piece Mr Cunningham wrote. However, I will not read any of his work until he addresses players and coaches by their names. What’s up with this Smoove, LD, JJ crap?
If he would focus more on his work, and less on trying to be hip, I would take him seriously as a writer.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
9:26 pm
Hatter,
So now your former hero Mike Woodson is a “puppet coach”?
This gets funnier by the post.
And, BTW, didn’t you see my post to you where I said I had no idea how Al made All-NBA?
Most of our disagreements have come when you have made, let’s say, less than totally truthful accusations about Al Horford. And my repeated defense of him was much less out of ardor for his game, than feeling you were being unfair and and many times disingenuous with those false claims. Hence my defense. Which was more about “keeping it real” on the blog.
To me Horford is a solid player who is versatile enough to play at either the 4 or the 5. He’s not going to win a title for you by himself, by any stretch of the imagination. He has great intangibles, but unless he steps up his production next year, he’ll be another overpaid Hawk. This year, still on his rookie contract, he’s a bargain.
So let’s give up this fantasy of yours that I think Horford hung the moon. I like him a lot, but he is a solid player, not a superstar.
And rant on, if you like but try to keep it real.
Later, Hatter.
KevinM
May 14th, 2011
9:38 pm
303, I’ll take that bet with you re: Marvin. That is not the worse contract out there, (3/23M)but I bet there is very little we can get in return and it won’t be a contributor. It’ll end up being someone who also has a bad contract, a Mo Williams, who simply does nothing to better the team. Give me a timeline on that bet and let’s wager a leftover Bibster jersey from the Philips store…I am sure there are a few hanging around on sale.
Speaking of Bibster, did you see who Coach LeBron said would be defending DRose? Game 1 to the Bulls with that comment alone.
Mitch, you made one GREAT point about this past season….6-0 to start the year, and .500 the rest of the way..that includes the playoffs!
Truly, could that sound any less impressive and not a good enough reason to bring back LD? He, in fact, did worse than Woody overall.
He was handed and 50 win team, and won 50…meaning no improvement as a whole, and just as much to look forward to as we had last summer.
We aren’t going forward until we know the status of Sund and LD. It would be total shocker in my book if either was not here next year, unlike my bet with 303 about Marvin….
I didn’t spend a dime on tickets last year, and I don’t plan on spending 2 dimes on tickets this upcoming year…unless there is truly something done with a team who played .500 ball the bulk of the season.
As I said before, keep JT/Josh, both still very young. move 2 all-stars while you can…Al would look very good on a Dallas team or a New Jersey team who has a PG that is asking for help. That Jersey #1 might be worth striving for.
KevinM
May 14th, 2011
9:39 pm
Doh! New Jersey gave that pick to Utah…Sund gotta go get involved with Utah now.
KevinM
May 14th, 2011
9:42 pm
Joe Johnson in a Bulls uni? That is a solid starting 5. And Joe can be a #3 in that lineup.
Dub C
May 14th, 2011
9:43 pm
Sure, Al somewhat disappeared during this post season, but to call him ’soft’ or a guy who plays ‘no defense’ is just stupid. The people who are saying these things are some of the same people who just a few months ago were saying how he’s our only leader and he shows more leadership than anyone else on the team. Unreal.
Regarding moves this summer, Marvin must go, but he has little to no trade value. Josh Smith is our only valuable trade asset. Not sure what happens with Kirk or Jamal.
This will be an interesting summer!
beone
May 14th, 2011
9:45 pm
Neither Sund nor LD should not be retained. The home blowouts without repercussions from MGT cannot be ignored. First get a GM with something to prove (younger with ambition) and a HC with enough guts to ensure accountability of the players. Then find some players that have some backbone. I don’t care if they lose every game if they hustle, work hard and show improvement over time. The current Hawks fail on all three counts.
JeJe
May 14th, 2011
9:46 pm
LOL @ people wanting Gasol
We are already soft as hell (no hard fouls)
You people want to get SOFTER
FIRE LD
FIRE SUND
FIRE JAMAL
FIRE MARVIN
beone
May 14th, 2011
9:47 pm
Edit: Neither Sund nor LD should be retained.
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
9:47 pm
“But I noted the team’s lack of scoring at the rim and also their low free-throw rate and asked if that’s something that can only change with different personnel.”
In my opinion, this is definitely not a personnel issue. Rather, it’s a style issue. As I’ve said over and over again, the Hawks do not operate in an offensive system that makes the most of their talents, and the low-free throw rate is more evidence of that. Jeff, Jamal, Marvin, Josh, and Al are all quick and athletic enough that they should be able to get to the free throw line just as much as any players at their positions.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 14th, 2011
9:57 pm
@Bad Dude you said “Good point about Marvinl”
All the people on here do is bash Marvin..Marvin is not a bust.He was a around 15ppg every year until his shots got cut in half due to Jamal, he could have easily did what Josh does, and jack up shots, but the guy plays team ball…..Now they are actually bashing Al!..How can you bash a guy who is 6ft8 and has had to play center his whole career?..And yes the guy is 6ft8, which makes him the smallest center in the NBA other than Chuck Hayes..So yes by the playoffs, after banging with guys 6ft 10 or better, he was going to be wore down…
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:03 pm
As far as the Chicago model is concerned, I really think that with Chicago the main reasons that they are as good as they are Derrick Rose and Coach Thibodeau. The rest of the decisions they are really moot points as far as I’m concerned. Looking back at what the Bulls had, personnel-wise, back in 2008 when they took the Celtics to 7 games in the first round, I’m actually more impressed with that roster than with their current one. That roster included Derrick Rose, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, John Salmons, Luol Deng (injured), Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah, and Brad Miller. That back court is by far better than what Chicago has now, and while Tyurs Thomas is not as good as Boozer, he’s a guy that impacts the game on both ends and has a lot of upside. The only difference back then was that Derrick Rose wasn’t as good as he is now, and Vinny Del Negro was the head coach. They have a better coach now, and a more developed Derrick Rose and an improved Noah, but if I were a GM, I’d rather have that group of players on the Bulls team today than what they currently have, along with Thibodeau. That roster could use more frontcourt depth, but that’s not a huge issue. So, even though people seem to think that this Bulls team, today, made a great series of moves to improve, I think people are overlooking what they already had and discounting how good they could have been if they would have their old roster with today’s Derrick Rose and Thibodeau.
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:08 pm
By the way, that Bulls roster that I was referring to in my last post was the one that took the KG-less Celtics to 7 games in 2009, not 2008.
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:11 pm
“Joe Johnson in a Bulls uni? That is a solid starting 5. And Joe can be a #3 in that lineup.”
How good would Joe really be in a system like that where he has to play primarily without the ball, though? Keep in mind that Joe is at his best with the ball in his hands. This is not the Joe that played in pheonix, this is the isolation specialist that developed in Atlanta. With Derrick Rose dominating the offense for the Bulls to an unreal extent, I’m not sure how big of an impact Joe would have on that team on the offensive end. He’d be an upgrade over any SG that they currently have, no doubt, but I don’t think he would make them the instant favorite to win the title every year.
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:11 pm
correction: *phoenix*
Bradley
May 14th, 2011
10:19 pm
I’m sorry if I missed this in an obvious place, but where are you guys getting the information about Al saying that he wanted to “extend his range”?
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
10:19 pm
Elton Brand is 6′8″ and he’s been a physical banger his entire career and has gone up against centers on plenty of occasions. Height is just one of many variables. Just sayin’.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 14th, 2011
10:25 pm
@Liar Maker Al IS NO WHERE NEAR 6FT10..LOL..
Height w/o Shoes Height w/shoes Weight Wingspan Standing Reach Body Fat No Step Vert Max Vert Bench Press Lane Agility 3/4 Court Sprint Class Rank
6′ 8.75″ 6′ 9.75″ 246 7′ 0.75″ 8′ 11″ 9.1 31.0 35.5 20 12.15 3.37 21
From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Horford-415/#ixzz1MNOyn7Op
@Najeh Davenport
When Brand was with the Clippers they had Kaman at C who is 7ft..with Philly he has had Hawes who is 7ft…No team has won a championship with a 6ft 8 center…
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
10:27 pm
“No team has won a championship with a 6ft 8 center…”
Ben Wallace would like to have a word with you.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
10:28 pm
Buddy,
That was a funny post, even if it was inaccurate. I laughed hard at superiorblogman as coach.
“Your Stafon argument is a strawman whereby you are equating my assertion with the absurd idea that an athlete “endorses” something that nearly killed him. ”
Perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what a straw man argument is.
Definition of straw man: An argument or opponent set up as to be easily refuted or defeated.
Did I do anything to defeat or refute my own argument, which is how one uses a straw man? Oops.
Sorry, Buddy, but that doesn’t wash. And this:
“Obviously my assertion that Big Ray “endorses” Larry Drew’s continuation as head coach of the Hawks is a (playful) exaggeration. ”
Well, if it was so freakin’ obvious, why didn’t you say so in the first place when I objected? Odd that your admission only comes when your logic was pulled out from under you.
“This reassurance from Big Ray rings so hollow to me, and is so unambitious, that I have decided to shoehorn Big Ray in with other media who have said Drew should remain in his position.”
Do what you feel you must, by all means. But if you think for a second that Ray was TRYING to reassure us, then you missed the point of that segment of the blog. Look man, this is really between you and him. I thought you were being unfair, and still do, so I stepped in. It seems to me that you are being pissy because he didn’t say what YOU would have said. So start your own blog if THAT’S what you need. And figure out what a straw man is before you accuse somebody else of using one.
Buddy, I’m not attacking you, or “looking for an argument” though you seem to be reacting as if I am. I think you have a lot of good things to say when you aren’t being what my Grandmother would call “Tacky”
So I;m out of this one unless you just HAVE to keep it up. Take your beef up with Ray on his blog. Have a good evening, and I mean that.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
10:30 pm
And anyway, Al is listed at 6′10″. Even that draftexpress link you posted lists him at 6′10″. Dwight Howard is 6′9″ without shoes — a quarter inch taller than Al, in other words — according to that site.
Terrence
May 14th, 2011
10:32 pm
Sautee on Horford: ” I like him a lot, but he is a solid player, not a superstar.”
Don’t take this the wrong way (and this is not just directed at you, I’m just using you as an example), but there are a lot of coaches out there who obviously feel like Horford is much more than a solid player (no one with any suitable level of basketball expertise ever called him a superstar), and they know more about the game of basketball than you probably ever will (no offense). All of of us on this blog can pretend like we are experts and know exactly how to evaluate players and coaches, but in reality, it’s nothing but speculation, unless there is strong statistical analysis to back things up. No one on here really knows how good Al, Josh, Joe, Marvin, etc. are but the players and coaches who work with them and coach against them on a daily-basis.
It might seem like I am just pointing out the obvious here, but I get annoyed reading biased assessments of players on a daily basis coming from mostly couch critics who really don’t know much at all about what they are talking about. Everyone is welcome to be a fan and say whatever they like, I can’t stop that, but I think it’s important to keep things in perspective.
J from the A
May 14th, 2011
10:34 pm
@Bradley: Re: Al wanting to extend his range:
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2011/05/12/bulls-at-atlanta-hawks-game-6-all-nba-al/
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:34 pm
“And anyway, Al is listed at 6′10″. Even that draftexpress link you posted lists him at 6′10″. Dwight Howard is 6′9″ without shoes — a quarter inch taller than Al, in other words — according to that site.”
I think the measurements on that site actually are pretty accurate. Seeing them in person, there is pretty small height difference between Dwight and Al. The difference between Dwight and Al from a physical standpoint is weight and muscle more than anything. Dwight, himself, would probably tell you that he even considers himself to be an “undersized” center. In fact, when he first came into the league, people even thought that we was going to be play power forward, not center.
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:37 pm
Correction: “People that that *he* was going to play power forward…”
Brandon
May 14th, 2011
10:43 pm
LOL, I think I need some sleep. Even my correction was incorrect. Anyway, I think you guys know what I was trying to say.
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
10:48 pm
Hatter,
This older gentleman is headed for bed (short night last night) but a couple of things:
First, I have no doubt that Woodson would have voted for his own players, but alas, that’s not allowed. Still, you are saying that NBA coaches are puppets, so he must have been one as well, according to your wisdom. It cuts both ways, my friend.
Second, you seem to have faith that Josh will improve in his 8th year, but somehow think Al will not in his 5th. Last year you told the blog he had peaked, but lo, and behold, his stats went up this year, at least enough that the evil media noticed and voted him All-NBA. So how had he peaked last year?
We’ll save that argument for another time. Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
10:53 pm
“Al really doesnt care what type of performance he does defensively. He just wants the ball.on offense to produce a career 12.8 points. I agree with what you said and almost every body knows. Al is soft defensively and that is the main reason we a) need a center and b) will never get past the second round as long as Al is your power forward or center.,…”
Al=Alice, Kick rocks Alice….You got bit-h slap up and down the court on defense cause your a dollar short and a step late all the freaking time…….Your defense and especially help defense was and is ATROCIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Valet parking Al, “He’ll escort you to the rim every time”
We trade you and get a real CENTER..AYE BUSTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr Softie…………….
Hey Larry we aint buying the Shi%t your selling.. Your team played .500 ball and you call that improvement.. Are you nuts ?Half the time your players tuned you out!!!!!!!!!!
Your team broke an NBA Record on the losing end of massive blowouts with a winning record.
13-26 against teams above .500..
Only won 44 regular season games!!!!!!!!!!!
If your team played in the Western conference, you’d be a 10th seed and eliminated from playoff contention early!!!
Gave away 2 #1 picks because you refused to start Teague and let him run your crappy motion offense all season long…
And you state “We made Great Strides”?
Great Strides your AZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Buster………………………………..
Kick rocks Larry and Sund too!
Lionel Hollins defeats the Bulls in 6 with the Hawks lineup LARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Go fishing dude…….Maybe you’ll catch a worm????
Sautee
May 14th, 2011
10:58 pm
Terrence,
I think you have a good point. Understand this about me: I tend to underplay my praise and overdo my criticisms. Drives my wife batty sometimes, though I try to NEVER underplay my praise for her. She thinks I’m too demanding in what I expect on the court from these players.
So therefore I think that “solid” is a high compliment. There aren’t nearly enough truly solid players in the league. So it’s much less of a slam than you might think.
I also have a high appreciation of Al’s intangibles and unmeasurables, which is what I think coaches see about him. Sorry if it annoyed you and I didn’t mind you making an example of my posts.
Slimjr
May 14th, 2011
11:10 pm
ALLSTAR- Al= Fake power forward
Boozer= Real power forward
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:30 pm
Interesting stat about Marvin for CNN Sports article:
“…in the Chicago series, when the Hawks scored almost 20 fewer points per 100 possessions with Williams on the floor.”
Kind of sums it up right there doesn’t it?
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2011
11:37 pm
“He was often put in a situation in pubic where he protected Al’s image but demanded a center for his team.”
I guess the Department of Unintended Irony must have scheduled a holiday for today.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:38 pm
On ESPN LD was talking about Teague having to earn the starting job at PG, nobody’s going to give it to him, he’s going to have to come in and take it, blah, blah, blah.
From an article on the website from yesterday.
Larry, I have a question: When did Hinrich come in and earn the starting job?
As far as I know, when we traded Bibby, Hinrich was a little dinged up, and it would take him a while to learn our O.
So Teague was the starter, and doing very well.
You gave Hinrich the starting job.
Teague is not a “kid” anymore. He’s about to be a 3rd year player. He just saved your job singlehandidly, Just played great for 6 games against the League MVP.
LD maybe if you would have told Mike Bibby “Look, we drafted this guy to be the PG of the future for this team. It’s obvious to everyone he’s athletic and has improved his game in every facet this season. Unless you earn your job, Teague is going to take it from you.”
Maybe the Bibby time here wouldn’t have been such a disaster this season.
Maybe if you said we’ll open up the PG position this off season and we’ll do what’s best for the team, you’d have two PG’s working like crazy in the off season.
Face it LD, you don’t like Teague, and you know it. You couldn’t even give the guy rotational minutes when Bibby or Hinrich was starting.
I just get so frustrated by the stupidity.
Harpie
May 14th, 2011
11:41 pm
Larry Drew is an idiot!
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:44 pm
All Star Al – 3rd Team All NBA at C
Boozer – Often injured, makes a ton more money that All Star Al for the next 4 years, so he should be better I would assume.
Al’s a very solid player, not a superstar, end of story.
If Al is a superstar, he just had the worst performance for a superstar in NBA history.
But if you say he was the 2nd best C in the East this season – better than Noah (hurt), Bogut, Bargnani, Lopez, Hibbert – Yep that’s Al. And it qualifies him for 3rd team All NBA at C. Nobody else was even close in the voting.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:45 pm
We gotta remember that the 10th best PF may be better than the 3rd best C, but the 3rd best C would still be 3rd team All NBA.
That confuses some folks on this blog sometimes I think
tjhook
May 14th, 2011
11:48 pm
Recommended trade: al horford, Marvin Williams, and Jeff Teague to San Antonio for Tony Parker, Richard Jefferson and Dejuan Blair/Matt bonner. Parker is the on floor leader the Hawks need.
He can score inside and out, is similar in age to Johnson and Smith and is not Popovich’s favorite player. The Spurs are looking for a sidekick to Duncan; Horford is perfect and Teague is talented enough to draw Pop’s interest.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:48 pm
One possibility to dump Marvin’s contract is Brendan Haywood.
He has a worse contract than Marvin, and he would be our other big we need.
Worth a try.
Mike
May 14th, 2011
11:49 pm
But you know what, I am starting to think that Atlanta needs to go after a true leader, I dont see no leadership from none of those guys period. JJ, Josh, Al(he tried), and others isnt going to be leaders out there and they need to trade for one. I dont care if it is Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, if we dont have a leader then we still be the same team.
I say, do anything possible to get a package together to get one of those two. You might have to eat JJ contract but if he isnt going to be the solution then he is the problem.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:49 pm
LD’s hatred of Teague leads me to believe that the trade that is coming, and has been rumored for several months is Smith/Teague for Curry/Beidrins, with maybe some picks thrown in somewhere. Like a GSW lottery pick or two.
I would hate that trade, and I like Curry.
I say hire Casey, Adelman, Brown, Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson or somebody and see what happens. I think they could help Teague and Josh.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:52 pm
And the rumor is Smith for Curry – but I assume if we get Curry, Teague would be expendable.
SteveW
May 14th, 2011
11:59 pm
Al needs to hit the weight room harder and shut up
Noah has, and now he’s pounding Al. He’s aggressive and a good defender- still has no Post moves. But he’s probably going to take Al’s spot as the 2nd best C in the East – Amare is no C in my opinion.
Al isn’t fast enough to be a PF – When you are punked by Brandon Bass and Ryan Anderson, you are no PF.
But Al is quicker than most C’s and fundamentally sound.
And D is not all about blocked shots and steals. There is denial, floor direction etc.
Al got 3 first team All Defensive team votes. From Coach’s
Josh received 1 this season. 2nd team last season however – at PF.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:00 am
The Cavs seem to like Marvin – if our cap guru’s could get Manny Harris and Dan Gibson for Marvin, we could then let Jamal walk.
Hinrich and Gibson could take Jamal’s spot off the bench.
Mike
May 15th, 2011
12:01 am
That trade with GSW would be a good idea but right now, we need a true leader, someone who is going to come in and straight this team out, to get on players when they are not playing their best. I dont see Curry/Beidrins being that type of players that is going to step into that role. To me, I think that we need a good floor general as well, I think Hawks needs that type of player.
But who I am kidding, ASG doesnt care about the fans or winning a champiship, they just want our money and complain when we booed them for all the mistakes. We will be struck again.
We need Chris Paul or D12 not Gasol.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:03 am
The ideal realistic off season:
Sign Barea
Sign Chucky Hayes
Sign Kwame or Wilcox
If you want to trade – see if the Mavs, and aging team, will take the 24 year old Marvin for bad contract Haywood.
Maybe slide JJ to SF to compensate.
And I will say this – Sy looks like a player – another good job by Pendegraft!
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:06 am
Defense – Huh? What trash – google it man. Even MC says we shopped Josh at the deadline.
We’ve shopped Josh alot over the years as a matter of fact.
I said I didn’t like the trade – read that part?
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:08 am
Defense – Al has improved his ppg by 4.2 points per game since his rookie season – the stat you quoted was bogus reasoning.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:13 am
What about this season? Josh averaged the fewest shot blocks of his career
Just the facts ma’am!
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:13 am
Josh averaged the fewest steals per game since his 2nd year in the League – Just the facts ma’am!
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:14 am
Talk about regressing…
Now we could be rational and talk about Josh playing 3 more etc, but if you want to be stupid, we can roll around in that awhile.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:15 am
Tjhook – I would rather trade for greg popovich if we could
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:18 am
Defense, could you please tell me when i said shot blocking was not an impacting part of the game.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:22 am
The Lakers have 2 of the top 17 shotblockers during the playoffs – didn’t seem to help them much
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:24 am
Hmmm – The Mavs don’t have anyone in the top 20 in blocked shots in the postseason, doesn’t seem to have hurt them any.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:25 am
Indianapolis had two of the top 8 shotblockers – are they going to the championship round?
Your reasoning is not holding up
superiorblogman
May 15th, 2011
12:27 am
Write right
May 14th, 2011
9:26 pm
This is probably a good piece Mr Cunningham wrote. However, I will not read any of his work until he addresses players and coaches by their names. What’s up with this Smoove, LD, JJ crap?
If he would focus more on his work, and less on trying to be hip, I would take him seriously as a writer.
Go suck a pair of aids infested lips
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:33 am
Defense – I would run also when your arguments don’t hold up.
Miami had none of the top 20 shotblockers in the regular season. When you quoted your stat about Miami, I assumed you were talking about the playoffs, and began quoting stats about the playoffs.
I posted this earlier about Al “Al needs to hit the weight room harder and shut up”
I criticize Al constantly for his many weaknesses.
Some on here think you either a Josh fan or an Al fan.
I’m both
I’m a Hawks fan
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:35 am
Kool – I did
Haywood #21
Marion #36
D said top 20 – No Mavs in the top 20
That’s the truth
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
12:39 am
Kool – Your point?
There’s still no Mavs in the top 20
Top 40 yes, but not top 20
Check the discussion
RMikel58
May 15th, 2011
12:41 am
Playoffs- I think Larry Drews lack of coaching experience hurt the hawks because he didnt know how to mix and match players and he didnt seem to get the players to buy in to what he had to say…..i guess he’s not much of a motivational speaker.
Eventhough JJ talked about how poorly the team played i find it ironic that he infact didnt come thru during the playoffs just as he did before in the past. He was one of the biggest reasons the Hawks couldnt move to the next level.
What really saved the Hawks was Teague, not Crawford not Josh Smith and not Al Horford. The Hawks are not athletic and cant get infront of a player to prevent easy layups or wide open shots. Quit calling plays for JJ and start running plays for Teague instead and he’ll keep you in close games.
Find us guys who can rebound and are more athletic and maybe next year you can advance alittle further in the playoffs.
This is how Chicago did it, with rebounds and defense and alot of their big guys were more athletic than the Hawks.
Slim
May 15th, 2011
12:48 am
@MC
How does Josh Smith feel about losing weight? Has it ever been brought up? Iirc it was 2 seasons ago where Josh lost 15 pounds in the offseason but put it back on for the season.
Can he go back to being an energy player? He has clearly lost speed and cannot get closer to the rim as well or as much lift on his jump shot as he used to.
If the Hawks are committed to going big then Josh needs to gain some speed. As is he’s a low energy half-court player as opposed to the full court end to end player he used to be.
“Smith was 245 pounds of solid muscle early in the summer but has shed weight since then, mostly by accident, but his summer work was as much philosophical as it was physical.
“I wasn’t trying to lose it. I didn’t do it on purpose. But earlier in the summer I started working out twice a day and the weight just came off. I’m down to 230 now, and I really need to put five more pounds of muscle back on.
Rev in Tampa
May 15th, 2011
12:54 am
“i think that culture has to be developed by the head coach but the team’s best players also have to buy in and there have to be enough role players who bring that kind of attitude without needing to be coaxed.”
CHURCH!
Co-Sign!
Ra'mon
May 15th, 2011
1:13 am
testing 123
James
May 15th, 2011
1:18 am
Hawks can try to trade Josh Smith to the Lakers for Pau Gasol we need a Center we can find a replacement for Josh Smith.
Ra'mon
May 15th, 2011
1:26 am
Horford really is the weak link here. Horford is an all star center who insists on playing pf. But too often when he’s at the pf spot, he is a non factor beside for the occasional 15 footer. I still believe a Horford for P. Gasol trade makes the most sense. And I actually believe it can be done!
One thing about the post season is I think it killed any value that Marvin had. But it raised the value of Zaza on the market. So I believe you could get a nice player or two for Zaza’s deal. For all Zaza does with energy, he still is a liability on defense. In the Chicago series, if you trade Zaza and Asik, the Hawks are in the conference finals!
Also, I still wish the Hawks would give Hubie Brown a call to come and coach them for one or two seasons!
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
1:31 am
whoever posted the Hawks last 4 head coaches have nailed the 2nd biggest problem of this franchise!!! #1 problem…the phucked up owners!!!
Ra'mon
May 15th, 2011
1:33 am
Would letting Jamal go, and signing someone like Rip Hamilton be a good move for leadership in the playoffs? Though he’s not as good as he used to be. He’s certainly a player who knows what it takes to win and get there. I think the Hawks mainly need to bring in championship pedigree players who have been there to compliment the players we have now. I actually believe with a healthy Kirk (coming off of the bench) this team could win, if you added Dalembert, McGrady, Rip, and Prince to the team and subtracted Marvin, Zaza, JC1, and Powell.
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
1:34 am
Woodson and LD…rooks have been in charge since this core has been assembled…PATHETIC!!!
Ra'mon
May 15th, 2011
1:38 am
Would Fratello be a good option?
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
1:44 am
Theus woulda been a better option than LD. Theus had his SAC teams playin’ hard…
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
2:34 am
Weighin’ in on the Al is a:
center, power forward, 6-10, 6-8 & 3/4
needs to lift wgts, gain wgt, wingspan,
Elton Brand, Elton John, Elmer Fudd debate.
_______________________________________________________
Al is a basketball player who functions best as a post
[not a wing / perimeter] type player.
The problem is with match-ups, more on def. than off.
One word on measureables;
Al is 6-8+, with an above avg but not great wingspan.
He appears to be playing at his optimum wgt.
(unlike Josh who seems like he could shed 10 or 15 lbs)
Being heavier does not mean stronger nor better. (necessarily)
It is more in the make-up of the individual, mind-set, upbringing,
attitude, meanness, focus, goals, temperment, & environment.
Example = our society as a whole is softer today than in my day.
In my day we were softer than my parents and their parents etc.
That cannot be taught at this late date, in my estimation.
I’m veering off topic – we need a true center, Al recognizes this.
We are undersized. Yes Ben Wallace was a different species.
Wes Unseld was cut from the same cloth.
I’m not real sure Rodman even had a position [6-6] but he could
guard a pg or Shaq and everything in between. [including Bird]
These are exceptions.
Regardless we need -more- size & rebounding. period. period. period.
_______________________________________________________
Josh has been hurt and we all acknowledge this.
It’s affected his stats, I’m certain.
I think, (just an opinion) but I think, Al has been hurt
to some degree since Griffin took him out of the air.
Hopefully he will recover mentally from this by next year.
_______________________________________________________
*side note – Bargnoni = 7 ft.+, great wingspan yet in no way is a center.
*ditto Dirk
We need two true 7 ftrs who are true [5's] and it has nothing to do with
Al or Josh or whatever pos they prefer to play.
The Hawks are small.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
2:37 am
@Najeh
Yeah but the Pistons had Wallace at 6ft11, Okur 7ft, and Elden Campbell 7ft
Buddy Grizzard
May 15th, 2011
4:23 am
“Smith/Teague for Curry/Beidrins” would be an unmitigated disaster for the Hawks and one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history. Teague took Curry’s lunch money the last time they played. Some predictions, based on what I saw in the CHI series.
1. Josh Smith will be a 2011-2012 NBA All-Star
2. Joe Johnson has played in his last All-Star game
3. Jeff Teague has All-Star potential, based on what he did against the reigning MVP. Not saying he will make the All-Star team next season, but I think it’s a possibility.
Buddy Grizzard
May 15th, 2011
4:37 am
Hawks to-do list for the offseason:
1. Re-sign Collins
2. Re-sign Damien
3. Tell JC1 run, don’t walk
4. Tell Etan and Powell run, don’t walk
5. Sign Chuck Hayes, unrestricted free agent who made $2.3m last season and received the second-most first place votes for defensive player of the year behind Dwight Howard
6. Sign Kwame Brown
Buddy Grizzard
May 15th, 2011
4:40 am
The reason to re-sign Damien and go after Chuck Hayes while letting Powell and JC1 go is that the former are defensive hustle players who are limited offensively. The latter are defensively challenged players who toss up every available shot when they get on the floor. Powell is also regarded by more than one NBA executive as the single worst player in the NBA. Funny how he was the first big man off the bench in one of the games against Orlando.
Casual observer
May 15th, 2011
5:23 am
ROFL
Casual observer
May 15th, 2011
5:34 am
People who were saying Teague isn’t a good player or “baller” at the beginning of the season are now saying Larry Drew should have been playing him since the beginning of the season and there would not have been a need to do this and that, blah blah blah. Hindsight from a couch is always so very clear.
Horford says something about playing power forward and now people are saying he is soft and useless, blah blah blah. Smith says he is just here to play and now people act like he has the right mindset and all that. So very funny how quickly people turn on a guy. Well, Mr. “I’m just here to play” needs to figure out actually how to play. Maybe some are impressed with that quote, but are they impressed with a guy who just cannot get his behind in the paint to do his scoring and instead hangs around the perimeter for really bad shots? Mr. “I’m just here to play” does not even box out for rebounds, he only gets them when he chooses to out jump people. Someone with that kind of athletic ability should be getting more than ten rebounds a game, but “he’s just here to play.” So funny. The paper tissue softie is a two time allstar and just been named to the all nba third team but Mr. “I’m just here to play” has never made the all star team and still wants to run the break and be magic johnson instead of filling the break as the most unstoppable catcher of alley oop passes.
These people sound like the same kind of people who said Jamal was better than Joe. Well Joe upped his points from round one to round two, while Jamal got his scoring average cut in half. But go ahead and praise Smith over Horford and Crawford over Johnson. Some of you would run this franchise into the ground quicker than the general manager before billy knight.
Casual observer
May 15th, 2011
5:43 am
Short sightedness at its best.
1. Josh Smith will be a 2011-2012 NBA All-Star
Maybe if he plays inside and can do better than sixteen points and eight rebounds. If he keeps shooting long jumpers you get what you got the first seven years.
2. Joe Johnson has played in his last All-Star game
It is still four more than Josh has played in. The coaches keep voting him in. That says something. Mr. Grizzards vote does not count.
3. Jeff Teague has All-Star potential, based on what he did against the reigning MVP. Not saying he will make the All-Star team next season, but I think it’s a possibility.
All star potential based off of five and a half playoff games against one opponent. Never has so much been assumed over so little. Show me an entire season first or maybe half a season. Not five playoff games.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
7:11 am
It’s only been a day and a half and this blog is already in offseason form. Nothing new in the Hawks universe, T-S is back, and people are sniping at each other about topics that have been rehashed a billion times.
Football Fan
May 15th, 2011
7:43 am
The best plan is to be horrendous and get the number 1 pick. Then you can draft a Tim Duncan, Derrick Rose, etc. type of player. When the Hawks were horrendous they made horrible draft picks. Glad we passed on CP3 for example. We will be a 4 or 5 seed in the playoffs for the next 3 years and then be awful again.
The Game Has Changed
May 15th, 2011
7:55 am
Wow. You guys are hilarious. Everybody either wants to fire LD, trade the best players, or take back Joe Johnsons contract. IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN. News flash. This team was one of the last 6 teams standing at the end of the season. We did well against Orlando and if Hinrich was healthy the outcome may have been different. So lets not try to re-create the wheel here. Drew did a great job this year with what he had. Maybe next year this time we can really determine if he needs to go. But until then, lets just support my Hawks.
darb
May 15th, 2011
8:16 am
The hawks have 2 problems. One is that they have just a bunch of mediocre players, and the other is that their system of joint ownership cannot and will not work.
bigdave
May 15th, 2011
8:38 am
“Horford says something about playing power forward and now people are saying he is soft and useless, blah blah blah. Smith says he is just here to play and now people act like he has the right mindset and all that. So very funny how quickly people turn on a guy.”
maybe you should be a more “frequent” observer.. your “casual” status has your opin
bigdave
May 15th, 2011
8:38 am
*opinion a bit off base
dap01
May 15th, 2011
8:41 am
We went through the longest and most painful rebuilding process in order to get LD and this collection of misfits. Teague is the one player that is untouchable. Everyone else needs to go. Especially the coach and management.
dj dascorpian
May 15th, 2011
9:01 am
Al Horford needs to spend the summer doing 2 things. 1. Yes, get in the wieght room. 2. Spend the summer with Hakeem Olijuan or Moses Malone, or Karl Malone-to develop low post moves. Al can get into the low post. The problem is he doesn’t know what to do when he gets there. Other players have figured out his game. He’s one dimensional. If Al could develop a left hand, game over. Al also needs to spend some of the off season at the Rucker in NY. Where he can learn from some of the best in the world. J. Smith needs to humble himself and get Jerry Sloan to teach him basketball fundamentals along with Stockton and Malone for additional tutoring lessons to become a great pick and roll low post presence.
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
9:18 am
Dj, while you’re at at it, can you get Marvin to put time in this offseason othervthan at Chapel Hill hanging out with Sean May. He is our equivalent to Arenas based on what we will get out of him with the remaining 23M.
Sund s/b fired for that signing alone along with his Bibby “prime” comment.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:50 am
@Stupid is as Stupid does”Yes Al is 6′ 10 1/2 ” but he plays 6′ 5″ maybe 6′4″ with a wing spam of 7 or 8 inches”
AL IS NO WHERE NEAR 6ft10..lol…Dwight Howard is 6ft10, Noah is 6ft10, hell, ZAZA is 6ft10, AL is no where near taller than any of those players…SMH!
M Tuck
May 15th, 2011
10:14 am
I think the big difference in Chicago is there new coach Thibodeau. When he was the asst coach at Boston they had the #1 defense, now that he is the head coach for Chi they have the #1 defense. Not a coincidence.
M Tuck
May 15th, 2011
10:19 am
I think we should let j Crawford go. I think the PG combo of an improved Teague and Hinrich can do better.
Myrak43
May 15th, 2011
10:26 am
dj dascorpian @
May 15th, 2011
9:01 am
Al Horford needs to spend the summer doing 2 things. 1. Yes, get in the wieght room. 2. Spend the summer with Hakeem Olijuan or Moses Malone, or Karl Malone-to develop low post moves. Al can get into the low post. The problem is he doesn’t know what to do when he gets there. Other players have figured out his game. He’s one dimensional. If Al could develop a left hand, game over. Al also needs to spend some of the off season at the Rucker in NY. Where he can learn from some of the best in the world. J. Smith needs to humble himself and get Jerry Sloan to teach him basketball fundamentals along with Stockton and Malone for additional tutoring lessons to become a great pick and roll low post presence.
You mean Al should work on his game so he can be more like Pau Gasol? yes he should. but hey why don’t we just trade Horford and Marvin Williams for Pau Gasol. and we would have to worry about Al getting a low post game or not.
NUNNA!!!
May 15th, 2011
10:39 am
M Tuck says,”I think we should let j Crawford go. I think the PG combo of an improved Teague and Hinrich can do better.”
Ditto!!
But u know what i hate about the coverage of this team M Tuck?
While i appreciate what the ajc does,the coverage by 680 and 790 is so f8cking shi88y!!
All during this series you had bulls talk almost all day and on game nights you had them taking calls up to 3am-4am in da freaking morning!!!!
U get segments of coverage here in ATL..Instead of talking hawks they have UGA talk,Falcon talk and then the NBA coverage would be 10 mins with the 1st 5 or 6 on other playoff games and the last 4 or less on the hawks!!
Im calling the hawks front office on monday and insist they get a foot in the butt of their hawks radio station to offer more coverage on this team..Its sick how they 680 and 790 would act as a national channel more than doing something for the local fans here like us!!
They would get more listeners and more respect if they did.But its just freaking frustrating!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
10:42 am
LD must be fire and let go, if the hawks owners wants to make a big investment into this team and build a championship caliber team, go get a coach point blank period.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
NUNNA!!!
May 15th, 2011
10:44 am
Correction:
M Tuck says,”I think we should let j Crawford go. I think the PG combo of an improved Teague and Hinrich can do better.”
Ditto!!
But u know what i hate about the coverage of this team M Tuck?
While i appreciate what the ajc does,the coverage by 680 and 790 is so f8cking shi88y!!
Totally different from what the coverage that they give in Chicago for the Bulls!!!
All during this series you had bulls talk almost all day and on game nights on chicago sports radio and you had them taking calls up to 3am-4am in da freaking morning!!!!
U get segments of coverage here in ATL..Instead of talking hawks they have UGA talk,Falcon talk and then the NBA coverage would be 10 mins with the 1st 5 or 6 on other playoff games and the last 4 or less on the hawks!!
Im calling the hawks front office on monday and insist they get a foot in the butt of their hawks radio station to offer more coverage on this team..Its sick how they 680 and 790 would act as a national channel more than doing something for the local fans here like us!!
They would get more listeners and more respect if they did.But its just freaking frustrating!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
10:51 am
All of the playoffs games where sold out fans will support this team, but ownership have to give the fans hope and show that there in the bussiness to win, if LD coach this team next year it will be a waste of year, first josh and LD will clash the hole year and destroy the chemistry o the team LD is not a leader, get a coach that will have control of the team and coach this team up, LD will be a waste if stay.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ejh
May 15th, 2011
11:08 am
First off the Hawks gave this series to the bulls. In game five with the lead the hawks had zsa zsa, and Josh on the bench, when they should have been on the floor regardless of their fouls. Damien wilkins should have been on the floor for defensive purposes. Going down the strectch you need defense not offense. The lineup should have been teague, joe, damien, josh, zsa zsa. Wilkens ond Deng, Josh on Gibson, Zsa Zsa on Asik, and Joe on Brewer. LD failed in keeping crawford and al on the floor. That being said, if the hawks are going to improve, they must move Joe to the three and keep him off the perimeter where he gets the ball and stagnates the offense. You must bring in a two guard who is willing to drive the basketball and a defensive minded center who blocks and rebounds. Tegue and Josh are the cornerstones of the frachise going forward. If there are any trades to be made this offseaon, I say send Al Horford and Marvin williams to Golden State for Monte Ellis and Beindris. Sign Caron Butler and a scoring power forward to come off the bench, Perhaps carl Landry. Then if you can try a sign and trade with beindris for tyson chandler. This would put the hawks in play for dwight howard if they want to be or still good enought to stand pat with what they would have, because you then could offer Monte Ellis and tyson Chandler for Dwight howard along with a future first round pick. if not your next year line up would be:
Teague
Monte Ellis
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
beindris or Chandler
Bench:
Hinrich
Butler
Wilkens
Landry
Zsa Zsa
Pape Sy
Collins
This makes for a better defensive Team 1 – 12, and have guys like ellis, and buter who are always determined to get to the rim and get foulde. This GM needs to be creative.
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
11:09 am
2 coaches that are out there that i really like Bill Lambeer and Mike Brown.
1.BILL LAMBEER is a winner all thru out his proffesional career and is a true leader, who demand toughness witch is good for horford and smartness witch is good for joe, josh not only that he develop his player and bring the best out of player.
2. Mike Brown who also leader will demand excellence from his team and not affraid to put players in there place, like i seen him do the greatest player in the game today lebron james and put his butt on the bench when was out of control that what you call a leader.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joey
May 15th, 2011
11:10 am
Well, I love Al and all, but if he had made his wide open jumpers, and not thrown the ball away so much in the Bulls series, yeah, it would have gone 6 games, but the Hawks would be figuring out now how to defend the Heat, instead of watching the Bulls/Heat on tv.
NUNNA!!!
May 15th, 2011
11:13 am
LD needs to go..He has not control over this team because they do not listen to him.Jamaal is not coming back yall..He see’s that his need for a ring would be greatly more appreciated if he were to go to a lakers team,or heat or bulls team..Trust me he is going to one of the big 3..Bibby better watch out lol..
Another thing is that LD should know that some players don’t practice with intensity but they do play with it..
LD has not shown that he has seen what most fans have seen in Teague all season.He plays politics and he says he tells JT this or that and that he knows he can play..Bull Crap LD!!
If he did then JT would have gotten more playing time,point blank period.
Was LD not coaching the team after the bibby trade when JT had to start?
Did he not see the job that JT did on Andre Miller and others?
Kirk brings better defense than bibby and he has the 3 point shot but overall we could have gotten by without him..
But,i do love our backcourt has he and JT in together and so does JT(who said it in an earlier blog with MC) who pointed out his like for kirk in another interview:
SS: Kirk Hinrich came to the team late in the season. What’s it like playing with Kirk and how big is it to lose him for this series?
Jeff Teague: He’s a great teammate. I started a couple of games with him and during those starts I got to know him real well. He’s a great help defender and he’s all about the team. ——————————————————————————–
He has never complimented not one of his current or former(Mike Bibby!!) teamates in that same manner.
As a coach u are supposed to know how to get thru to each of your players as time goes on as u coach them..LD doesn’t.
LD didn’t know that he could guard bigger guards,play with intensity the way he does and could score the way he does because if he did he would have been playing or starting a long freaking time ago!!
I still do not advocate the release of Rick Sund either.He has supplied us with Jamaal,JT,and Jordan Crawford over the past 3 years and now he has Magnum Rolle on the roster as well?????
But just like Woody,LD preferres to have this team stuck in a philosophy thats not interested in developing players..
Oh,and he also brought in Twin too..
U might not get the name players that u want with Sund but u will get the game that u want from the players he does provide for you…
Its up to u to play them,Larry Drew!!!!!!!!!!
NUNNA!!!
May 15th, 2011
11:18 am
ejh says,”This makes for a better defensive Team 1 – 12, and have guys like ellis, and buter who are always determined to get to the rim and get foulde. This GM needs to be creative.”
——————————————————————————————————–
Does Jordan Crawford,Teague,and a driving Jamaal like getting to the rim and get “and 1’s”?
Sund has provided that for u but its up to u allow 2 of the 3 names the chance to show u what they can do while they are on the team and playing..Not when u trade one and the other is forced to start because of injury..
Keep Sund
NUNNA!!!
May 15th, 2011
11:22 am
Uh ohh..Base Raider u done started something now!!
Now u gonna have Gov.Deal checking Al’s status to see if her is here legally..They might even have had checked his legality by stopping play and walking out on the court if we would have advanced and would be playing games 3 and 4 here against miami..Wow!!
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
11:25 am
God what nonsense if kh was healthy the outcome would have been different,ha,ha. If JJ & jc wouldn’t have choked so badly, & if we had a coach who could coach the results could have been different.
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
11:26 am
NUNNA co-sign, keep SUND and get rid of LD.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
11:26 am
GET REAL THE GAME HAS CHANNGED
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
11:36 am
Uh, are you saying we played defense against the Bulls in 2/6 games or are you saying we played defense as a whole?
I didn’t see it; Chicago had their way with us most of the series. They won twice as many games as we did and I’m glad its not the best of 11 series..Chicago would have beat us 6-2!
We have loads of room for improvement, and the post defense has a lot to be desired. You have 2 PFs and a Zaza protecting the rim. Collins was a help in smaller spots, but the core of your post defense needs an uptick.
I like Josh moving back inside, limiting his jump shots. I like Al being used to bring in more talent, inside or outside. I like Teague and Joe together for the most part. I don’t see Joe as a guy who can play withstand the number of minutes a #1 has to play and succeed.
Resolve the interior defense, use your limited salary ways and get us a defensive minded 3 (Battier), and I think we have a better shot at moving forward.
Joe’s salary is 25% of available resources; what he showed me under LD is not 25% contract worthy. Get me a coach who will play to Joe’s strengths, get him some scoring/defensive help, and I think we give it another run. Oh, and average Larry can’t be retained if we are serious about major improvements.
The main move is putting Josh back at the 4, and getting us the SF help we need so bad, yet is the easiest position to fill.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
11:38 am
@Mitch: “The players were generally soft—MC, correct me if I am wrong, but the reason why the Hawks didn’t take it to the rim or get to the foul line nearly often enough, was that the players used LD’s so-called motion offense as an excuse to settle for jump shots, wasn’t this the truth?”
that’s a fair assessment. L.D. wanted them to put it on the floor and get better shots but they tended to settle.
J from the A
May 15th, 2011
11:38 am
The “Chicago way” to the Eastern Conference finals was not accomplished through major player acquisitions, and this is why the Hawks may be able to emulate the “Chicago way.”
What did not make that much of a difference for the Bulls:
1. The addition of Boozer. Adding Boozer to the Bulls’ line up was the only major acquisition Chicago made this off season. While Boozer’s talents definitely made the Bulls a little bit better of a team, the addition of Boozer alone could not have elevated the Bulls to so-called “elite” status. Boozer added to the same 2009-10 Bulls team may have made the Bulls a middle of the pack play off team, but nothing more.
What did make a big difference:
1. Internal improvements. I think this is the #1 reason for the Bulls success this year. Derrick Rose went from being a really good PG to arguably the best player in the NBA. Loul Deng went from being someone who was looking a lot like Marvin (i.e., an overpaid role player that is barely adequate at playing their role) to one of the better all-around SF in the league.
2. Smart additions of effective role players. Korver gave them a legit shooter off the bench. Asik gave them size and tenacity off the bench. Brewer gave them an additional rotational quality wingman. Bogans gave them lock-down defense plus the ability to hit the open 3 (for the vet minimum mind you). Kurt Thomas gave them a savvy veteran center to throw in to the mix when needed. These role players filled needs and gave the Bulls great depth.
3. Thibs. Enough said.
Of course, the Hawks don’t have the cap space to sign 4 or 5 quality role players. They have the space (using exceptions) to sign 1, maybe 2, plus whatever quality the Hawks can get for vet minimums. And the Hawks are more than likely stuck with Larry Drew for next year. But that’s OK. The Hawks also have a few nice trade pieces. So, how do the Hawks emulate the Bulls model (or at least their outcome in a semi-similar fashion)?
1. Trade one of the “core” pieces. Given that the Hawks are doubled up at PF, in many ways it makes the most sense to trade Al or Josh. However, if you can get value for JJ, any trade involving him should be considered. In this trade, the Hawks must be willing to take a slight talent downgrade for the addition of NEEDED pieces. For example, Al for a starting-quality center plus a very good rotational-quality wingman or a very good rotational-quality PF. The Hawks may not be able to get an All Star in return for an All Star, but the Hawks would be filling two holes with quality players.
2. If the new CBA is anything like the current CBA, the Hawks should still have the ability to use the MLE (or something close to its equivalent) to pick up an additional quality role player.
3. The core pieces that remain MUST improve. We can expect Teague to have a break out year next year. If Al is traded, Josh must improve. If Josh is traded, Al must improve. It would be nice for Marvin to have a break out year, but I am not holding my breath on that one. (In fact, I would like to package Marvin + the Hawks’ core member in a trade for a starting quality center plus 2 very good role players that fill needs.)
Bottomline: Internal improvements of key players, plus the addition of three to four quality players (even if this means giving up one of the Hawks core stars to get these players) = Eastern Conference Finals and, perhaps, beyond.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
11:38 am
@Grandad: “1. Have the Hawks conducted exit interviews? 2. If so / or if when, would we be privy to some of the appraisals?”
they were on Friday. since those are pretty much like employee performance evaluations, the only way to know the details is if L.D. or the players give them when asked. they generally didn’t, except for Teague, who said L.D. told him to work on his 3-point shot.
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
11:38 am
I take the latter approach on this team because there is no way in HAIL that any GM will come in and do a complete makeover.
But that’s what is needed here……Miami and Chicago were below us a year ago…..now we are looking up to both.
Thank you Rick Sund, Mike Gearon and Larry Drew for all the reinforcements you provided to the roster this year.
I know the season ticket holders are pleased with the results this year as well.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
11:39 am
@Boom Dizzle: “@MC — That’s a good point. At the same time, before the start of this season who would’ve thought some suck…err I mean team would take on the likes of Gil Arenas, Baron Davis and/or Rashard Lewis. Marvin isn’t untradable but expect someone else’s junk for him. At this point IMO that would be better….”
haha . . . yeah, usually trading a bad contract (unless it’s expiring) means taking another one back.
The Game Has Changed
May 15th, 2011
11:44 am
@Rusty-Blame everything on everybody. Yall first thought we were not even going to make the playoffs saying the Bucks, Bobcats, Knicks, 76ers, Pacers, and Nets go better. Wow. We didnt even play our best and still landed the 5th seed. Then yall said we would be swept by Orlando. So much for that. Then they said we would be swept by the Bulls. We won 2 and should have won 3. The bottom line is we are still striving. I dont know what teams you were watching in the first round but Hinrich played very well.
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
11:45 am
Rick Sund is the reason for this team success, the reason he traded JC2 is because of LD, we had a diamond in the ruff in JC2 but coach LD never gave the guy a chance, so SUND who had no idea on what type of player JC2 was because of LD non development had no choice but to trade him to try get the hawks a point guard in here, and the hole time we had a point guard in the making in JEFF TEAGUE who LD never gave a chance until HINRICH was hurt so in what way do LD GET ANY CREDIT for this team.
IF IT WASN’T FOR LD THE HAWKS WILL HAVE THERE 1ST ROUND PICK AND JC2, FIRE LD.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
The Game Has Changed
May 15th, 2011
11:47 am
@MC- Thats a problem right there. He should have been telling Teague to work on his mid range game. We dont need our point guard shooting 3s. Atleast I dont think so. The floater is a great weapon that Teague has but if he cant get to the paint he would be so dangerous if he could stop and pop on a dime from 10-15 ft out.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
11:52 am
@superiorblogman: You are okay with me but you are wrong as they come on your numbers. The Hawks have $64.268.493 million in reported salary going into next year.”
J.J. 18.04
Josh 12.5
Kirk 8.1
Marvin 8.05
Al 12
Zaza 4.75
Teague 1.58
That’s 65.02
Pape Sy’s deal is not guaranteed but since they’ve already paid over 600k for him i don’t think he’s getting cut. his 800k makes that makes the payroll 65.82.
Magnum Rolle could be cut but his salary would make about $67 million.
“The Hawks paid out $70.927.923 million this year and did not go into luxury. That means the Hawks have about $6.5 million to spend going into next year before they hit the luxury if all things remained the same in the new CBA or got better. The current mid level exception is less than $6.5 million so the Hawks can be a player for a center such as”
if they did this, then they would have only eight player. that doesn’t meet the (current) minimum.
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
11:53 am
And Rick, since you’re against commenting on the team until your draft workouts are completed, why don’t you take a look at grabbing a 2 or 3 pick in the draft lottery, making it up to Atlanta fans for dumping 2 #1 picks….you might find the one guy who would bring optimism to this team…
Enes Kanter – compared to Al Horford, yet he will be a true big man….his early pre-draft workouts are impressive IMO and he’s already around 261 lbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNK8siaYI7M&feature=player_embedded
I rebuild immediately with that dude! He fits the cap for years to come. This is coming from the same guy that begged for DeMarcus Cousins last year when Minnesota had zero interest at 3. We will regret not getting a deal done for either Kanter or Cousins.
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
11:59 am
Thought you might like to read Mo Evans and his comments about the players’ stand on a hard cap in the upcoming CBA talks:
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/213390/Union_VP_Evans_Hard_Cap_Out_Of_The_Question
I think the players are going to be willing to sit out for awhile to make their point. Then we’ll see how many owners want to have a product on the floor. But if the ASG is involved, you can be sure we are headed for bad ramifications.
No NBA, no DirecTV package, no guaranteed ticket base…..this one won’t get a benefit whichever way the NFL goes.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
12:00 pm
@Write right: “This is probably a good piece Mr Cunningham wrote. However, I will not read any of his work until he addresses players and coaches by their names. What’s up with this Smoove, LD, JJ crap? If he would focus more on his work, and less on trying to be hip, I would take him seriously as a writer.”
i use their names for the print newspaper stories. this blog is informal, like a conversation with more serious fans of the team. i think i do pretty good work here but if you don’t care for it, that’s cool.
theight
May 15th, 2011
12:03 pm
I’m not as upset with as most because i still have to give him a chance because he was a rookie coach so hopefully he will learn something from this year. He made some bad decisions but a lot of what he preached worked when the hard head players did what he asked of them (joe and crawford). Drew had to work with what he bad. I think damien should have played more for his defence and crawford less. Horford also had an awful playoff. I don’t think he is cut out for power forward. He was given that chance and he sucked.
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
12:04 pm
@Slim: “@MC How does Josh Smith feel about losing weight? Has it ever been brought up? Iirc it was 2 seasons ago where Josh lost 15 pounds in the offseason but put it ack on for the season. Can he go back to being an energy player? He has clearly lost speed and cannot get closer to the rim as well or as much lift on his jump shot as he used to.”
i’m thinking this was related to the knee. remember he banged it early in the season and then just as he said it started feeling right he hurt it again.
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
12:13 pm
What’s funny in all this review of the Hawks and after all the guys we have brought in to play SF, guess what we need to upgrade? Exactly, and that goes with moving Josh back to the 4 and kissing Al goodbye.
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
12:14 pm
Yes i agree JOSH need loose atleast 15pound, he is now the hawks starting smallforward, HORFORD need to lift more weight and become stronger and tougher, NOAH AND BOOZER DESTROYED HORFORD IN THE PAINT.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 15th, 2011
12:25 pm
JOE need to loose weight in the of season, he look very sluggish and slow JOE, JOSH BOTH NEED GET THERE WEIGHT AT 225 POUNDS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
RaJaH
May 15th, 2011
12:46 pm
Wouldn’t Horford be considered a BYC player next season since that is the first year of his extension? If this is true, the Hawks can only take back half his salary in a trade.
hmmmm.......
May 15th, 2011
1:00 pm
I’d look at trading everybody execpt al and teague.
Slim
May 15th, 2011
1:09 pm
Well if the Hawks want to extend Smith and Joe’s career they need to lose weight they are probably about 240-250. Smith needs more lift and quickness to get to the rim instead of settling for jump shots in the half court. Point blank he’s too slow.
let Crawford walk and take a flyer on Al Thornton (currently making less than $1mil as a backup SG/SF).
and Greg Oden for $9.5 mil, he gets hurt ship him off and ASG can say at least they tried and await the next move for a center.
$9.5 mil may seem extensive but even while hurt, teams like Detroit and others were inquiring about him last year.
I’ve heard The important thing is to keep his weight down at 260-265 and work on his 8 foot jumpshot.
Teezo
May 15th, 2011
1:10 pm
Do something with this team ASG…This is not a bad group of players, except for Marvin, but like I said before, they just don’t mesh well together…We need to find out what kind of identity this team will have and move on from there…If the means trading certain players or whatever, but we all have come to realize that this team has met its ceiling…They don’t motivate each other, they seem to tune the coach out, and they have no leader because JJ is scared to become that…They have to look at all options and jump on whatever brings back the most value…It really all comes down to what ASG wants to do to help or not help JJ…If ASG is content on JJ being a top option on the team, then they need to find him a sidekick…If ASG feels like JJ is not their man, then my guess is they need to blow the team up and start from scratch because this team will go nowhere with Horford or Smith as their “go to” guys and I really think no players would be estatic about coming here without JJ on this team…Peace…
Slim
May 15th, 2011
1:12 pm
forgot to mention move Marvin to make room for Greg Oden, easier said than done?
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
1:14 pm
The game has changed. This team under achieved all year. JJ had a bad year, he can’t come close to playing up to his contract. kH is adequate but thats about all.next year the offense needs to run thru jt not kh or JJ. If ld is still here I don’t expect anything of value. The players did what they did in spite of his stupidness. Every body had a bad year he did nothing for this team.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
1:16 pm
@MC “haha . . . yeah, usually trading a bad contract (unless it’s expiring) means taking another one back.”
Man, I see you have bought into the AJC Hawks blog way of thinking!..Marvin was around 14ppg for 3 years, then came Jamal, and his 1000 shot attempts, that’s why Marvin production went down..You, just like most of the blog blame Al, and Marvin, Al at 6ft 8, has had to play center for the Hawks and has produced. Joe, who was the highest paid player on the court against bulls, but produced 1 good game, and Josh, who after not showing up against Orlando, had a 8-22 shooting night against the Bulls and you guys went crazy…Marvin does not have a bad contract, he is not the “MAN” Joe is the man, and he and Josh have the worst contracts on the team.You never bash neither..Be fair and quit letting personal friendships dictate your posts!..Other than that you cool!
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
1:32 pm
Even though Al Horford’s height is routinely listed as 6′10″, Draft Express lists Al Horford’s OFFICIAL height as:
1-WITHOUT SHOES-6′8.75″
2-WITH SHOES-6′9.75″
3-WINGSPAN-7.75′
4-STANDING REACH-8′11″
And because he hasn’t or can’t dominate every center he encounters, some of you are foolish enough to believe it’s because he’s soft, or needs to get stronger. None of that BS is going to make him taller. And it hasn’t helped his cause that he hasn’t had much help at SF, or benefited from having a PF(JSmith)that understands the concept of BLOCKING OUT.
How many of you would be stupid enough to call DHoward soft, or incompetent just because he has allowed a backup center named Jason Collins to handle and frustrate him? For all of you that are so hungup on us retaining JSmith over AHorford, why haven’t you suggested we play Josh at Center? Are any of you foolish enough to actually think he’d be more effective at center than AHorford?
JTeague, although purely by accident, has solidified his claim as our starting PG of the future. We all know if it hadn’t been for KHinrich’s untimely injury, LDrew would still be making one stupid excuse after another for not giving Teague a legimate chance to unseat any vet PG on our roster.
I bring this up because we have another situation that will challenge LDrew, and that’s Pape Sy. He’s young and inexperienced like Teague, and has shown the speed, quickness, and athleticism that’s not usually associated with a 6′7″ player. He has excellent ball handling skills, he gets to the hoop without hesitation, and he’s lived up to the defensive ability that so impressed LDrew.
The question is, will Drew learn from the gross mistake he made with Teague and give Pape Sy the chance he deserves, or will he give in to his stupid bias and revert back to his excuse making BS? Also, we won’t likely be able to trade Marvin. Therefore, instead of accepting the frequent disappearing act of a player that’s proven capable of averaging 14-15PPG, LDrew should make an effort to include him more in the OFF.
Everyone has to realize that while he’s not a one on one player, and doesn’t do well trying to create his own OFF, he’s very good defensively, as well as versatile, and still has some valuable OFF skills. Unlike JJ, Jamal or Josh, Marvin isn’t going to react to being excluded by disrupting the OFF, dominating the ball and going ISO, or jacking up illadvised jumpers.
What you get out of Marvin offensively is directly proportionate to how much he’s involved in the OFF. If you want more consistency from him, you have to consistently involve him more in the OFF. If you want more production, you have to give him more opportunities to produce. Hell, that holds true for any ball player.
All of this crap about wanting more from Teague and Marvin, but refusing to give either of them more mins and/or opportunities is plain stupid. LDrew has to do more than pay lip service to getting Marvin more touches, and he has to stop making excuses to justify the stupid hangups he seems to share with Woodson regarding developing and utilizing young guards.
The biggest improvement this team has made in the last 2yrs wasn’t based on any trades. It was based on starting and playing Teague major mins. We could have a simular boost in performance if we give Pape Sy the same consideration. Some feel we need to have a post up presence, which would certainly be welcome, but not necessarily needed.
Think about it, the Bulls killed us in the paint, but it wasn’t due to their frontine. Boozer didn’t hurt us in the paint, he killed us shooting short range jumpers. Noah and Deng certainly didn’t hurt us with any post up domination. It was the unstoppable penetration of PG DRose that did the bulk on the damage to us in the paint, period.
You pair JTeague with a quick, fast, but bigger and taller, penetrator like Pape Sy in the starting lineup, and we get the DRose effect. We get to the FT line more often, teams can’t afford to double JJ, or anyone else for that matter, and we get more high percentage scoring opportunities.
JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT!
I believe the Hawks would improve tremendously if we move JJ to SF, start Pape Sy at SG next to Teague, and leave Horford at C and Josh at PF.
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
1:39 pm
Ken you are doing a hell of an assumption that pape sy can really play. Let’s face it ld definitely has to go before any decisions are made.
loser@hawks.com
May 15th, 2011
1:46 pm
They have been trying to seek help for the last 45 years.
brigadierjerry
May 15th, 2011
2:12 pm
I think Marvin Williams can provide us with some decent underachievers. Something like Jordan Hill & Thabeet from Houston; Randy Foye & Ryan Gomes from LAC; Shannon Brown & GSW 2nd pick from LAL; Johnny Flynn, Martell Webster, & Anthony Randolph from Minny; Marco Belinelli(S&T) & Aaron Gray from NOH; Omri Casspi & Hassan Whiteside from Sacto; Bargnani & Alabi from Toronto. Maybe inlcuding a small filler from us if need be.
A move I would love to see the Hawks do, would be O.J Mayo & Hamed Haddadi for Zaza and a future first pick. Allows us to let Crawford walk for sure and keep the bench scoring he provided at a cheaper rate and actually upgrade on the defensive end.
Joel Pryzbilla & T Mac are 2 FA’s I would like the Hawks to pursue.
If we do nothing entertaining in the off-season, then we might as well look forward to what we got this year.
The Game Has Changed
May 15th, 2011
2:20 pm
@Rusty- Who lied to you and told you this was a championship team. Wishful thinking playboy. At the end of the day there will only be one team that didnt underachieve. The Lakers payrole was 90 million. Now that is what I call underachieving. He had a bad year because of injuries. He didnt complain eventhough he was playing with a bad thumb and elbow. Forget about the contract crap. Micheal Redd made 18 million the past two seasons and only played in 36 games. Rudy Gay isnt even there to help his team and he is making 18 million. The list goes on and on. Lets see how Drew does once we add Ne Ne with the same top 8 players. Now What. Go Hawks.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
2:33 pm
Ken Strickland = ad rem as usual.
*[ad rem is a good thang]
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
3:10 pm
@Ken Strickland you said this “Even though Al Horford’s height is routinely listed as 6′10″, Draft Express lists Al Horford’s OFFICIAL height as:
1-WITHOUT SHOES-6′8.75″
2-WITH SHOES-6′9.75″
3-WINGSPAN-7.75′
4-STANDING REACH-8′11″”
you also said this”Unlike JJ, Jamal or Josh, Marvin isn’t going to react to being excluded by disrupting the OFF, dominating the ball and going ISO, or jacking up illadvised jumpers.
Best post i read on here in a while!..i have said the same things over and over, glad to see a guy in ATL who knows about BASKETBALL!
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
3:15 pm
@Ken Strickland
Yes!..why not give Pape Sy a chance?..the kid looked very quick and athletic..he could serve as a defensive stopper..I am so sick of young guys never getting a chance..Salim,Acie,Solo,Morris,jordan crawford,..etc…etc…
Ben
May 15th, 2011
3:16 pm
The players the hawks have would have been much better if they had a strong coach. Strong = not still making excuses of not knowing system after a month. The Hawks had the lamest coach search last year. Solid coaches had been available last 2 years. A Fratello or Doug Collins(there are others) would probably have these Hawks in the East Finals now.
It is time to quit worrying a coach might hurt these players feelings and get one who knows how to win.
Worldwide Clyde
May 15th, 2011
3:20 pm
I say sign Sean Williams for the league minimum.
Tarik
May 15th, 2011
3:46 pm
Obviously we need a center. Period. But, in my opinion, we have a solid team. What we are lacking is effort & toughness. Against the Bulls, Rose never hit the floor on any of his drives to the lane. Also, we need some type of motion offense. Its just isolation which is very easy to defend. I know evryone is on Josh about the jumpshots (So am I) but a lot of times its because when he gets the ball there is only 8sec or less on the shot clock. Which is also due to the lack of off-ball movement. With the talent we have & the emergence of Teague, these little things could be a huge difference.
Tarik
May 15th, 2011
3:50 pm
I agree with Ben. I think that you don’t fire a coach who has improved the team every year he was here only to promote his asst. As far as the ‘effort’ comment I made above, I think Mike Woodson made them play harder. I think Coach Drew is too laid back. If he’s gonna be the coach, he can’t be afraid to bench players when they aren’t playing smart.
Tarik
May 15th, 2011
3:52 pm
I also agree that Marvin should be featured in the offense more. When he touches the ball, usually good things happen. Also we should’ve used the bench a little more against the Bulls. Especially the young players. In the end we were out hustled & thats partly fatigue. Game 5 showed that
Sautee
May 15th, 2011
3:53 pm
Clyde,
Sean wouldn’t sign for a dime bag?
Actually, at this point he night be worth a chance IF we had some stronger presence in the locker room. But alas, we don’t. And this ownership group seems to lean almost exclusively toward choirboys.
Where is Sean these days? Where did he play this year?
Worldwide Clyde
May 15th, 2011
3:59 pm
We have needed a center for 6 years now and the Hawks keep ignoring this problem. Didn’t ownership say they were happy with Horford at center at the beginning of the season? This shows how clueless they are.
Dept. of Unintended Irony
May 15th, 2011
4:19 pm
“Actually, at this point he night be worth a chance IF we had some stronger presence in the locker room.”
Which “night”? Billy?
Michael Cunningham
May 15th, 2011
4:27 pm
Stupid is as Stupid does
Get real guys.
Yes Al is 6′ 10 1/2 ” but he plays 6′ 5″ maybe 6′4″ with a wing spam of 7 or 8 inches
Some of you have notice that Al doesnt like to block shots or get physical under the basket. As Slimjr pointed out Al seems to be an escort or a valet for players going to the rim. Choosing to get a up close view of the dunk rather than try to stop it with a block or a hard foul. The consensus is that Al is a very weak defender. So here are 2 questions that you should ask yourself:
Is AL soft?
Does a wild bear chit in the woods?
For the intellectually challenged let me help you, the answer is the same for both questions.
KevinM in my opinion has come up with a realistic base in which to build.
Its quite clear that this bunch will never get past the second round. Alot of you whined about ISO Joe ISO Crawford, not understanding the game. Outside of JJ JC and JSmoove nobody can create much offense. Al Horford needs to be set up to get a shot off which stagnates things further.In fact most of Al’s career 12 ppg average comes from garbage plays, like josh blocks a shot and finds that Al, who wasnt down on the defensive end (cherry picking) is standing by his self under the basket. Or 3 guys attack JJ or Josh and nobody is playing horford and josh finds him out of a triple team. Those type of garbage plays can be done by almost any body. Heck Sautee can do that. The hawks need defensive play makers first and offensive play makers second. Thats Chicago’s model with 5 players in the top 40 for block shots during this playoff run. Blocking shots and getting it done should be a team effort not a Josh Smith Jeff Teague effort. Where the puck was AL?
Hawks need the right attitude. Guys like Al Horford who refuses to gain weight get stronger and more physical for the sake of the team is not only wasting his 6′10 1/2″ frame (his 7ft daddy should be ashamed of him), but breeding a Me Me Me attitude.
All this whining about being given responsibility to take over the center position is sick. Real leaders rise up to the challenge and lead by example which encourages everyone. Thats leadership. Boston players except the challenges with out whining and thats why they are always serious contenders. This Al whining is affecting the team and moral. The attitude is “if Al is looking out for Al why shouldnt I look out for me?” Hes not giving it up for the team so why should I? This cancer has attached itself to the Hawks and only the youthfulness of Jeff Teague and Josh Smith has kept hope Alive.
So as I was saying earlier. KevinM is absolutely right. This team is not going anywhere. They changed directions alright. Now they are going down Build around youth with Josh and Teague, the only 2 guys that showed up in the playoffs, and the two youngest. Josh has an attitude of “no matter where you put me Im going to give it my best” He and Teague have have tremendous upsides and are hungry. Everybody else have been over come with selfishness, particularly Horford who, when not begging for the ball on offense is doing his prima dona act before the press running his mouth and begging for brownie points. JJ doesnt go to the rack anymore and is bitter about not being featured in Drew’s Princeton offense what ever the hell that gimmick is.Crawford is playing like his already on another team and just trying not to get hurt. He felt that its was either Him or Al for the contract extension. I did not see him going to the rack either but choose a lot of lazy jump shots. Like I said before The only two that showed up was Josh and Jeff.
Cut fire trade or demote everybody else and lets build about Josh and Jeff. Go after D Howard who would love to play at home and with his buddy Josh. One thing you can count on, is Josh Teague and Howard would show up! Teague will drive the ball Josh will pass,dunk,block and slash with intensity. Howard would also block and dominate the paint. Between Josh and Howard every opposing team would become Jump shooters.
If you want to get the fans back (how can you not sell out a pivotal playoff game at home?) make these moves.
Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind.
T. S.
Rod from College Park
May 15th, 2011
4:31 pm
“And because he hasn’t or can’t dominate every center he encounters, some of you are foolish enough to believe it’s because he’s soft, or needs to get stronger. None of that BS is going to make him taller. And it hasn’t helped his cause that he hasn’t had much help at SF, or benefited from having a PF(JSmith)that understands the concept of BLOCKING OUT.”
All these excuses for Al Horford are very funny. So now Al Horford played terrible in the playoffs because Marvin is terrible as usual, and Josh Smith did not box out (LOL). The same draft express that listed Al as 6′8 without shoes, listed Dwight Horward as 6′9 without shoes, and Josh as 6′7 without shoes. Al is still only an inch or two shorter than Dwight Howard, no matter how you look at it. The problem is, for most of the playoffs, he played the power forward position that he has been asking to play all year, and played below average against the likes of David Andersen, Brandon Bass, and Carlos Boozer. He could not even score in the post against a small forward (Deng), with numerous opportunities. He never provided any resistance at the rim in either series, while are 6′7 small forward did numerous times while guarding guys much taller than him. PF stands for Power Forward ,and Al played like anything but a Power Forward.
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
4:39 pm
RUSTY-A lot of fans said I was making A HELL OF AN ASSUMPTION when I said JTeague could get the job done if given an honest chance to replace Bibby. Why are so many fans apprehensive and willing to make excuses when it comes to giving a young unproven player a chance to prove himself?
It amazes me how Hawk fans can look around the league and see rookie guards producing after being given significant mins and opportunities to start and produce. Yet, when it comes to our rookies, we hear one lame excuse after another for not playing them. Explain how we can accept and defend a vet PG who lacks aggressiveness, speed, quickness, DEF, and an inability to penetrate or doing anything beyond launch 3’s?
Yet, we’re perfectly willing to make, and accept, a myrid of lame excuses from Hawk HC’s who insist on holding young, quick, speedy PG’s hostage, despite the fact they play excellent DEF and penetrate. And all we hear are the same lame A$$ excuses of they alledgedly aren’t aggressive, enough, mature enough, or don’t shoot jumpers well enough?
The same jumpshot, or the lack thereof, that some of our fans made such an issue of before the playoffs, didn’t stop Teague from being our most productive, mature, efficient and consistent player, as well as the Hawks MVP of the 2nd rd. I’m sick and tired of all the EXCUSES, EXCUSES, AND MORE LAME A$$ EXCUSES.
Play Teague and Pape Sy and let their performances determine if they are good enough to get it done. Stop making excuses to justify personal issues, hangups, likes and dislikes that are counter productive and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a players actual abilities.
GRANDAD-THANKS!!! LDrew is not perfect, far from it, but he’s head and shoulders better than what we had. He needs to take stock of what took place with Teague in the playoffs and grow from the experience. I have my doubts it will happen, since he’s still telling lies and making excuses for not making it happen much much sooner. And for the last 2 gms in the series, he actually got through to JSmith.
KHinrich will make $8M this yr, and he has an expiring contract. That, plus the fact he’s still very productive, makes him a very valuable trade chip. With PG JKidd almost eligible for SSI, he might be very attractive to Dallas. They’ll certainly have to offer starting Center TChandler a new contract, which might make them willing to part with BHeywood.
A KHinrich for BHeywood trade would be a solid move for both franchises.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
4:39 pm
If we really wanted to do things the “Chicago Way” ?
Hire Leonard Hamilton [Fla St] as HC.
Leonard is as single minded a defensive coach as ‘`Thibs’`.
*He coached one year [..Wash Wiz..] in the NBA;
*record 19-63 unimpressive (until you look at the roster)
Two factors:
(1) watch his FSU teams defend
(2) Chris Singleton
* I know LH personnally / Josh would be def. POY or — gone –
Leonard would hold everyone accountable including himself.
Joe would become a hustle player or — gone –
Josh would do absolutely what the coach wanted him to do.
(no questions asked)
Jamal could not function in his society.
He would require [finding] some [Big] shot-blockers.
They would play deefense as if the ball belonged to them…..
and they wanted it back !
Chris Singleton – young fellow is a local lad.
(I coached against him)
*scouting report = talented but:
lazy, no defense, athletic, scorer, wants to play on perimeter,
soft, doesn’t rebound according to size, and on and on…..
now go to any site and read draft report on young Mr Singleton.
I’m not makin’ this stuff up.
If we still had our 1st round pick;
we could have C.S. who’s probably the best defender
in the draft. (able to guard all five pos, according to some)
Back to LH :
sound like someone in which yawl would be interested ?
KevinM
May 15th, 2011
4:43 pm
1 reason to move Josh back to the 4……..less jump shot situations.
Since Al is determined to move himself out of his ‘all-star’ position, then he needs to go to a team who will allow Al to do what he wants, instead of what the team truly needs. Al loses his all-star position once he slots himself in the 3 role.
LD had ideas he wanted to try out; I truly believe he still doesn’t know which buttons to push to get his team playing consistently. Can a team with so much inconsistency continue to grow? We have already heard these guys have been through so much that its time for them to take a step forward.
Well, 2nd round exit again as a 5 seed this time and Sund can no longer boast about this team improving each and every year. We are quickly turning into the Magic of 2 years ago.
We have peaked, we still don’t have a sound plan, and we need a makeover.
I am pining for getting back into the draft to excite this fan base. We’re watching OKC, Memphis, Chicago, and Miami pass us by because of our ‘cautious’ approach. Sund made his first in season move here as the GM. Man, that’s not cautious; that’s riding the previous GMs vision.
I can’t imagine the deals Sund has either suggested or been turned down for…..
I will admit right here I thought Shaq would have been a good marketing move and a potential help in the playoffs. Too much off the court antics has crumbled Shaq into a no-factor. Who would have thought Kwame would have a better year than Shaq…and I wanted no part of Kwame.
Nate ArchiBALL
May 15th, 2011
5:10 pm
I’m not sure about Haywood…….Didn’t work out in Dallas which is the reason the went after Tyson Chandler.
The Dallas Way – sign a 7ft stiff each season until one works out for you. .
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
5:20 pm
KevinM
For those who cannot afford to pay attention…..
–this is on the house–
Al @ the [4] and Josh @ the [3]
Josh @ the [5] and Al @ the [2]
who really cares !
In motion offense, they move from pos to pos anyway.
when a team runs a play – they put players in position to score.
The run a play for Joe, they don’t run a play for the [2] guard.
(same all ’round)
Defensively they match up according to match-ups.
Al -vs- Boozer or Al -vs- Noah, not # -vs- #.
+ PLUS +…..We neede size and had Collins or Zaza in
much of the time.
Would you prefer Al @ the [5]…Josh @ the [4]…
with…Collins / Zaza @ the [3]…would that satisfy all you folks ?
Once upon a time, Al Downing was broadcasting a Braves game;
he was explaining how teams needed power hitters at the
corner outfield positions.
One team (..Braves perhaps..) had a light hitting right fielder,
but a power hitting center fielder.
His solution was;
to solve the lack of a power hitter at the corner outfield (RF) position,
the team should move the center fielder to right
and the right fielder to center.
Problem solved.
Whomever was Al Downing’s broadcast partner
was rendered speechless.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
5:28 pm
It’s only been a day and a half and this blog is already in offseason form. Nothing new in the Hawks universe, T-S is back, and people are sniping at each other about topics that have been rehashed a billion times.
LOL. Najeh , you’ve never been more right….
JoJo the Godfather
May 15th, 2011
5:38 pm
The thing that puzzles me is that our current and previous head coach looked at our roster, and decided the best way for this group to play is to grind it out in the half court. I just don’t see it. I see a group that is tall and athletic at the 1 through 4, and small at the 5. I see a team that needs to get out and run and bring some highlights and excitement back to Atlanta. Get a new GM. Get a new coach. Trade Kirk Hinrich & Marvin Williams for more athleticism.
Kirk Hinrich to Boston for Sheed’s contract -OR- Jermain O’Neal’s (who then retires or opts out) & Avery Bradley (Teague clone). Saves us $6.5M in salary.
Marvin Williams, 2011 2nd rdr & PHO’s future 2nd rdr to Phoenix for Josh Childress. Saves us $1M.
Jeff Teague – very quick, improving ability to finish at the rim
Avery Bradley – very quick, long arms, solid defender
Joe Johnson – PG handle, 6′7″, and you can’t stop him in the lane
Pape Sy – 6′7″ former PG, quick & athletic
Josh Smith – can handle the ball, pass & finish
Josh Childress – 6′8″ SG/SF, hustle player, good passer & finisher
Al Horford – good outlet passer, good finisher
Magnum Rolle – long and athletic, only been playing ball 6 years, upside
ZaZa Pachulia – hustle player, backup 5
Use the salary savings to grab a free agent center. Bring back Damien, Collins & veteran combo guard. 13-man roster set.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
5:44 pm
Hate it or like it, the ASG will keep Larry Drew. Now if they surprised us and hire a proven veteran coach who will demand more man minimal salary, then anything is possible. But, they won’t. Now what LD needs to realize is that they are going to do him just like they did Woodson. When he’s up for a contract renewal, he’ll get 2 years, maybe 3. The only way to break that trend is to win it all, which he’s not going to do with THIS roster.
We can’t prove he can’t win it all anymore than we can prove that he can , at least with this roster anyway, so both arguments are really irrelevant at this point (I’m sure somebody will protest that point, but hey, it’s just an opinion).
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
5:49 pm
A little food for thought.
Evan Turner, 2nd overall pick 2010 NBA draft.
Is generally considered a major bust !
His efficiency rating was 8.8 in 2010
Now for the Jordan Crawford crowd – PER = 8.4
*(..Sasha Vujacic..) was an 8.9 and he’s a sissy.
My point;
if Evan Turner is a bust,
could we render through logic & reasoning that Jordan Crawford
is, in fact, a bust as well.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
5:58 pm
JoJo the Godfather
We have to grind it out. [not defending LD]
To run you must have the ball !
We either can’t or don’t REBOUND.
*actually* (we are too small)
Defensively we don’t have the players with the “gumption”
to play hard enough every time out to take the ball away.
(force turnovers)
Rebounding & forcing TO’s are two ways to acquire the ball.
Another is to let them score THEN toss it in and RUN !
Is that what you would have us do ?
I’m not trying to be a smart ass, it just comes natural.
jason
May 15th, 2011
5:58 pm
Josh for Rudy Gay?
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
6:02 pm
ROD FROM CP-Except for the unnatural man cruch you had for MWoodson, all you’ve done is point fingers and belittle one player after another. You don’t have a clue what being a fan is all about. All you seem to do is form a love hate relationship with certain players and/or HC’s.
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
6:18 pm
GRANDAD-Mentally, it’s kind of hard for our players to go all out on DEF for 48 mins when the HC insists on burdening them by insisting on giving major mins to 2 DEF liabilities. I can imagine how it feels to keep being told they need to play harder defensively, yet the HC has absolutely nothing to say about the total lack of DEF effort, or the swinging door DEF of Bibby or JCrawford.
How do you think our players feel when Jamal or Bibby weren’t scoring, were playing no DEF, yet is allowed to stay on the floor for extended mins? Under both LDrew and MWoodson, our players kept hearing one thing about the need for better DEF, but their actions and substitution patterns contradicted everything they heard.
Sautee
May 15th, 2011
6:22 pm
Ken, I just don’t see the Rod loves Woodson thing at all. I had lots of discussions with Rod, mostly about his hyperbole, but in all of my time discussing things with him, I never thought he was a Woodson fan. Where did you get that idea? I’ve seen you post it before, and I believe that Rod tried to set you straight then.
We ALL have our biases, and are guilty of being propagandists. All of us.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
6:27 pm
Grandad ,
Of course Jordan Crawford is not a bust. Didn’t you see how many points he scored up there in Washington? The guy is a legend in the making.
Nevermind the fact that his scoring doesn’t translate to his team winning.
Nevermind that his ceiling is Ben Gordon or Jamal Crawford.
Nevermind that his opponent will often score as much as he will if the talent level is there, because he’s a worse defender than Mike Bibby.
We just traded away the second coming of Jamal Crawford (who, ironically enough we can’t seem to get rid of quickly enough according to a lot of folks here) and that spells the franchise doom for the next 400 years.
While we’re at it, let’s trade Al, Marvin, and Joe for Dwight Howard and watch him and Smith set a record for blocked shots in a season. Instant championship. Guaranteed. Because blocked shots win championships.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
6:35 pm
I don’t buy the “we are too small” thing but so much, Grandad .
Noah is a legit 7 footer with shoes on, but he is about 220-225 lbs. Taj Gibson is about the same size as Marvin Williams. Boozer is a beefy guy, weighs more than Al does, but he’s about 6′8″. Asik has size, but is he bigger than Collins or Zaza?
What we lack down low is fundamentals (Josh) and consistent heart (Al). I want the Al Horford of ‘07-’08, ‘08-’09, and ‘09-’10. That guy was a beast.
Oh, and the whole thing about shot blocking…heh…two of the top defenses in the East (Boston, Chicago) lack true shotblockers…so it ain’t that. We need more positional defenders. It’s how Chicago stopped us. They didn’t stop us by waiting until we got to the rim to challenge us (which is what we do, and only one of our guys does it well), they stopped us from getting into the positions we like (which is what some of our guys do well, and most of our guys don’t do so well).
Challenging at the rim is a component of defense. Challenging shots all over the court, challenging positions, denying driving and passing lanes…that’s defense.
If all somebody is worried about is how well you challenge at the rim, then they’re missing the whole point: If that’s where you play defense all the time, then it’s a direct indicator that you are failing everywhere else on the court.
Ask Orlando, who we beat, despite them having the reigning DPOY and top shot-blocker. Guess what? He can’t block shots unless they come to him. So, we beat them from 15 feet and further out. Because the only defense they DID have was Dwight.
Rod from College Park
May 15th, 2011
6:37 pm
Ken Strickland,
Check your meds. You will never find a post in 3 years that ever had me supporting Mike Woodson. You also will not find me posting that Larry Drew was the next coming of Phil Jackson, unlike you, who talked about him before the season like he was the next coming of John Wooden. Yeah, I guess a true fan unlike myself would never spend his hard earned money on two season tickets, in the club section from 2005 to 2010. Again check you meds. The only player that I have always bashed is your favorite Hawk Marvin Williams. You remember him, the one you used to make all kind of excuses for when I was the only one calling him out 3 years ago. Sorry that people calling out your favorite Hawk Al Horford has you all upset, but he deserves as much blame, if not more, than any other Hawk. His offensive game was exposed in the playoffs at center or power forward.
O'Brien
May 15th, 2011
6:46 pm
Congrats to OKC.
Despite our high draft picks (#2, #3, #5, and a #6), and our high priced FA signing (Joe Johnson), OKC is the one who makes to the conference finals in Durant’s 4th year (he was drafted the same year as Al).
And their payroll for next year? $49 mil (compared to $64 mil for the Hawks).
Its amazing what can happen when you utilize your draft picks, and hire the right coach.
Rod from College Park
May 15th, 2011
6:57 pm
“How do you think our players feel when Jamal or Bibby weren’t scoring, were playing no DEF, yet is allowed to stay on the floor for extended mins?”
Better than they felt when Marvin was doing nothing on offense or defense and allowed to play more minutes than than Bibby or Jamal on a regular basis.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
7:15 pm
“Evan Turner, 2nd overall pick 2010 NBA draft.
Is generally considered a major bust !
His efficiency rating was 8.8 in 2010
Now for the Jordan Crawford crowd – PER = 8.4″
a) It’s way too early to declare Evan Turner to be a bust.
b) As far as advanced stats go, PER is a relatively worthless stat that means little outside the context of fantasy basketball.
c) Jordan Crawford’s PER in Washington was 12.6 and for the season as a whole was 11.8. Still not that good, but I don’t know where you are getting 8.4 from.
d) Jordan’s PER is low in large part because he took a lot of shots and didn’t make a high percentage of them. That means his season this year was not that good. It does not in any way preclude the possibility of him developing into a more efficient player. And if he does, his relatively high assist percentage and relatively low turnover rate for a high-usage 2-guard provide a lot of hope that he can be more than just the one-dimensional scorer that Jamal is.
Also, it’s hard to say much about his defense when he played most of his minutes on a lottery team in a wide open system where defensive fundamentals were not exactly stressed.
e) The primary objection to getting rid of Jordan Crawford is not that he is going to develop into some kind of All Star. It is that he is a tradeable asset who was sacrificed to acquire a player whose acquisition wouldn’t have been necessary if the Hawks had managed their existing assets properly in the first place. If the Hawks had simply played Teague, the presence of Jordan on the roster would have given them more flexibility on what they could do this offseason. He could be included in a trade for a player at a different position who could help the team, or he could step into the role Jamal is set to vacate.
Basically, the bottom line is that judging Jordan Crawford — and subsequently the Hawks’ decision to trade him — based on his low efficiency numbers in Washington is pretty short-sighted and doesn’t take into account the entire picture.
Two blown lottery picks later...
May 15th, 2011
7:21 pm
I think LD has the makings of a better than average hc, but I’m still befuddled that NO ONE in th organization had the insight to at least try Jordan Crawford at all, nor Jeff Teague until they had traded away basically this and next year’s draft for what is now the second best pg on the roster. Had Hinrich not gotten hurt, we’d still know nothing about Teague. Isn’t talent evaluation at least some part of a coach’s expertise??
Too many ‘character issue’ guys to have the team LD wants. I don’t see but two, maybe three of the starters, assuming the big lineup and Teague at point, that will ever give more than a sideways glance at playing defense. Josh could be a perennial all star, talked about with the best in the game
at his position, but he just….doesn’t….get…it. Perhaps it’s time for Josh and Marvin to head out of town, and finally…..’Schizo Joe’ has got to play like the highest paid player in the league. 35 one night, 10 the next does not cut it for a ’superstar’. A six game series is one thing, an 82 game season is something else entirely. He HAS to get more consistency.
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
7:42 pm
SAUTEE-You’re correct, I got ROD confused with JE JE.
ROD FROM CP-I owe you an apology for the MWoodson comment.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
7:49 pm
@Rod i shook my head when you said this “Better than they felt when Marvin was doing nothing on offense or defense and allowed to play more minutes than than Bibby or Jamal on a regular basis.”
Marvin averaged around 14ppg for 3 straight years at around 46% before Jamal and his 1000 shots a year came here…Marvin shot total dropped by 300 field goals…your best friend who makes almost twice as much as Marvin, (Josh) had one solid game throughout the whole playoffs and really he only shot 8-22 in that one game….The 120 million man maybe had 2, you never have anything to say about neither…
@Big Ray
If you think the Hawks are not too small you are not watching the games!..On Draft Express Howard only measured out at 6ft9 without shoes and you could see how much bigger and TALLER he is over AL…the problem is that AL spoiled ATL fans with his stellar play since he has been in the NBA..Everyone knows AL is a PF, well, except you!
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
7:49 pm
By the way, how different would our collective view of this team be if the Hawks had done what Memphis did in winning Game 6 at home before going on the road and getting blown out in Game 7?
Magic Johnson
May 15th, 2011
7:50 pm
@Big Ray
“Noah is a legit 7 footer with shoes on, but he is about 220-225 lbs.”
Noah was 223 and a slacker when he was drafted. He is up to 7′0 235 now.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Joakim-Noah-589/
“Taj Gibson is about the same size as Marvin Williams.”
no Williams is 6′8 245 and slow and is supposedly our SF STARTER but just the fact that you compare him to a PF who is a BACKup is a condemnation.
“Boozer is a beefy guy, weighs more than Al does, but he’s about 6′8″
Frequent misconception about both Boozer and his fellow Duke alum Elton Brand is 6′9.5 and around 266 pounds.
Al is 6′9.75 245-250. Also this is the second time you compared Horford to a starter. So Horford is supposed to box out both Joakim “I never give up” Noah and Carlos “270 and we’re the same speed” Boozer. And his help is the 6′7.75″ Marvin Williams?
That sounds like Orlando, Dwight and Ryan Anderson/Brandon Bass. They are blowing up their team, we want to see if Horford can become Dwight Howard.
“Oh, and the whole thing about shot blocking…heh…two of the top defenses in the East (Boston, Chicago) lack true shotblockers…so it ain’t that. We need more positional defenders. It’s how Chicago stopped us. They didn’t stop us by waiting until we got to the rim to challenge us (which is what we do, and only one of our guys does it well), they stopped us from getting into the positions we like (which is what some of our guys do well, and most of our guys don’t do so well).”
I agree we need a SF, PF or C that does this.
Marvin Williams is not the answer. Al Horford can play center if we get a Garnett or a Bogut or a Dejuan Blair even.
And Boston is out because Glen Davis is not to slow and I hesitate to say undersized but he is too slow and does not have the length or athleticism to erase mistakes.
Josh Smith bulking up to 250 is not the answer at PF unless we turn Marvin Williams into Lebron James. Otherwise Josh to SF, lose weight and preserve his knees. Horford needs a center.
“Challenging at the rim is a component of defense. Challenging shots all over the court, challenging positions, denying driving and passing lanes…that’s defense.
If all somebody is worried about is how well you challenge at the rim, then they’re missing the whole point: If that’s where you play defense all the time, then it’s a direct indicator that you are failing everywhere else on the court.”
exactly we have Josh trying to block shots like Dwight Howard. For all intents and purposes Smith is often our center. The only defense Atlanta has is Josh Smith.
“Asik has size, but is he bigger than Collins or Zaza?
“What we lack down low is fundamentals (Josh) and consistent heart (Al). I want the Al Horford of ‘07-’08, ‘08-’09, and ‘09-’10. That guy was a beast.”
Great player but he’s still the same jump shooter he’s always been. Of course he maybe could have driven more in the closeout game but it still stands this team needs help at the 4 or 5 and basically you’re telling Horford try harder while Marvin Williams gets a free pass and Smith has to be our Dwight Howard.
It’s disingenuous to think that this team has not peaked as currently constructed and needs more centers.
Magic Johnson
May 15th, 2011
7:57 pm
@Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
Marvin Williams 14ppg come at the expense of a low production rate. Marvin Williams would need to become Paul Pierce to justify playing him at the 3 for starter minutes.
This is not 2008 or 2009 Teams have become stacked in the Eastern Conference. He is a liability against elite teams as a starter. He does not do enough to mitigate funneling all our defensive mistakes to Josh and Al.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:02 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
I’ve often said over the last 3 years that I feel Al Horford is a hybrid player. He’s a PF who is capable of playing center. But you wouldn’t know that because you probably haven’t been around these blogs long enough. No big deal, no harm no foul.
But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you.
I didn’t say the Hawks aren’t small. Last I looked Zaza was 6′11 and 270, while Jason Collins is 7′0″ and 260 or so. My point is that the size itself isn’t the main problem. Mentality is.
The Hawks are small, but the bigger issue is that they PLAY small. Did it look to you like the Bulls dwarfed us out there? How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
8:10 pm
BIG RAY-I agree with you one the WE’RE TOO SMALL idea. We’re certainly bigger and taller than the Heat, who are in the conference finals.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:10 pm
Magic Johnson ,
Thanks for the correction on the height of Carlos Boozer.
You have NO idea how much I agree with your post.
No, Al is NOT supposed to be able to block everybody out. And yes, his only help tends to be Marvin “I’m the invisible ninja” Williams and Josh “I’ll never box out, but when I feel like it, I’ll outjump people for rebounds” Smith.
People don’t see Al boxing out and some of his so-called frontcourt teammates not getting the rebounds. They only see him not getting all of the rebounds (yet consistently leading the team in rebounding) and him not scoring 20 points per game.
The idea behind boxing out is that you keep the opposing team from getting offensive rebounds and ONE of your teammates gets the rebound, doesn’t matter who.
Horford boxes out well. Pachulia boxes out well. Joe does when he decides to get into the mix.
Few others on this team do this. Josh gets as many rebounds as he does because he is able to slide up next to guys (often without them noticing, because he is NOT fighting physically for position) and then outjumping them to the ball. He snatches rebounds out of the air. However, when guys put a body on him, it’s all over.
If Josh played like Gerald Wallace, he’d be an absolute terror on the boards. I kept thinking Josh would turn into Shawn Marion, but it never happened. Not only does the shorter Marion have superior rebounding stats in the prime of his career, but he also didn’t make his home crowd groan when he took jumpers. Why? Because Marion could and DID make them.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:15 pm
Ken ,
It’s an old refrain. I agree to adding more size, but only if it’s useful size. We look small because we play small. I ask again, how did we beat those big ol’ Magic, if we’re too small? Nobody wants to answer that one, it seems.
Well, mostly because JJ haters don’t want to admit that he did fairly well in that series, and Jamal haters hate to admit that he was our leading scorer.
Kirk Hinrich haters don’t want to think about the fact that he was our starting pg in that series.
Al Horford vs. Josh Smith guys don’t want to think about the Orlando series stats. Josh had 14 and 8 while Al had 12 and 10. Which was better? Who cares, both were adequate to win the series since JJ and Jamal were doing the heavy lifting on offense.
It was against Chicago that both guys failed.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:18 pm
By the way, how different would our collective view of this team be if the Hawks had done what Memphis did in winning Game 6 at home before going on the road and getting blown out in Game 7?
If nothing else, fans could hang their hats on the fact that the Hawks refused to give up ground on their own home court. We could even not feel too badly about hiding behind the fact that we lost to a team that hardly ever lost at home, a team that was #1 in our conference.
But….the barbs, jabs, and poison-tipped arrows would still be there for their favored targets. Losing game 7 just always looks and sounds better than losing 4-2. Just ask the Magic, who are right now (if they’re smart) working the phones to see just how much they can get for Dwight Howard in a sign and trade before he walks away in 2012.
JeJe
May 15th, 2011
8:31 pm
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
8:49 pm
“Marvin averaged around 14ppg for 3 straight years at around 46% before Jamal and his 1000 shots a year came here…Marvin shot total dropped by 300 field goals”
If you judge a player based on points per game, you are right. Jamal’s arrival did cause Marvin’s points per game to decrease.
If you judge a player based on efficiency, Marvin right now is almost the exact same player he was as a rookie. The only fluctuation in any of his efficiency numbers results from the fact that a) he developed a pretty nice 3 point shot in his 4th season and b) that 3 point shot got worse over the last two seasons. Other than that, there is virtually no difference between Marvin the sixth-year player and Marvin the rookie other than how many shot attempts he gets. One could use that information to say that aside from developing a 3 point shot after Year 3, Marvin has not worked on his game at all as an NBA player.
Of course if Marvin gets more shot attempts he might average 20 a game, just like if Jason Collins gets enough shot attempts he could also average 20 a game. The question is whether he could do so without a dropoff in his efficiency. Everything he has shown as a player points to the answer to that question being no.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
8:53 pm
@Big Ray “How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?”
Well, actually, when Drew woke up and started Twin, we were bigger, that’s how we won…Bass is maybe 6ft6..6ft7…Al is a little bigger..Josh is around 6ft7..Hedo is not a force on the boards, and basically is a guard…Collins is bigger than Howard, well, at least taller..your boy Woody was a complete idiot..We should have beat them last year, if he had played a center..
you also said this “But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you. ”
everyone on here had decided that Marvin is a bust, but if you go back and look at his stats after his rookie year, he was around 14 ppg shooting 45% or better..Also remember Marvin has had some of his best games while Joe was hurt..Why?…MORE SHOT ATTEMPTS..that’s all the kid needs..Drew, just like Woody insist on him being a catch and shoot type guy,, but he can drive and get to the line…He is more efficient than Josh is at the 3…When Jamal got here Marvin took 300 less shots that’s he dropped to 10ppg…
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
8:55 pm
Ken Strickland – touche
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
9:02 pm
A lesson in size:
The Pacers feature starting center Roy Hibbert, who is 278 lbs and stands 7′2″.
He averaged 10.4 ppg and 6.8 rebounds against the Bulls in round 1 of the playoffs.
Not impressed? You shouldn’t be. It was worse than either Smith or Horford.
There’s size, and then there’s ferocity. You tell ME how it was that Hibbert was unable to prevail against a team that featured not a single player who was as big as he was.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
9:05 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
So what are you telling me, that we need to get rid of anybody who will get in the way of Marvin’s shot attempts?
The only way Marvin scores 20 ppg is if he gets traded to the worst team in the League, and that’s if they don’t have a starting caliber small forward already.
That or do a brain transplant with Josh Smith. No wait. That won’t work. Because if that happens, Marvin will STILL be shooting from the outside and not driving to the hole.
Nevermind.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:06 pm
Big Ray
I have never been a big fan of Jor. Crawford
but, that efficiency rating,
surely had to do eith his abysmal shootin %.
As for feeling the need for the Hawks to add size;
I’ve been in that camp all along.
It’s more than shot-blocking,
but we need additional rebounding.
We are constantly at a disadvantage size wise against most teams.
Yes, there are exceptions…..Heat, Bulls,
but they also have some other components which we fail to have as well.
Yes Josh and Al can compete…But…another Big makes it more of a fair fight.
Rebounding and defense, plus having a legit post presence.
Final word, I’m convince we need more size and rebounding.
(obvious note, size with more than a modicum of ability)
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:07 pm
* convinced * with a “d”
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:09 pm
@Najeh Davenpoop
“Of course if Marvin gets more shot attempts he might average 20 a game, just like if Jason Collins gets enough shot attempts he could also average 20 a game. The question is whether he could do so without a dropoff in his efficiency. Everything he has shown as a player points to the answer to that question being no.”
I know we are talking about Marvin, but your post describes how I feel about Joe..he averaged 18ppg and it took him 16 shots to get those 18….Marvin, is a player that needs to have plays called for him, and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot, you can run him off screens or in the post also he never gets credit for playing solid D…Take away Josh’s Blocks and 20% success rate when he gambles for a steal, Marvin is a better defender than Josh…To me, Josh and Joe are the Hawks biggest problems, not Al, and Marvin…Oh yeah we could use a coach also…
O'Brien
May 15th, 2011
9:17 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer,
Marvin, is a player that needs to have plays called for him, and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot, you can run him off screens or in the post.
Marvin has been guarded in the post by smaller players on multiple occasions (Hinrich, Luke Ridnor etc). Have you seen him succesfully score against them? I havent.
When JJ gets double teamed, Marvin was the recipient of open shots. But he missed too many of them. And how do you explain Marvin shooting 39% from the field, and 27% from three in the playoffs, when Jamal and JJ were the focus of the defenses?
And how do explain Marviin averaging 2 rebounds per game in the playoffs?
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:20 pm
@Big Ray
lol, but if the guy averaged 14 ppg on 11 shots a game in 07-08, it should not be hard to believe that if he was able to put up 15spg he would average 20..your boy Joe Max was getting 18ppg on 16spg and never gets to the line….Also the in 07-08, I thought the Hawks were the 4th seed in the east?…People talk like Hawks are still a 15 win team, we have been final 8 the last 3 years.. We are almost there, we just need a CENTER so AL can move to PF, where he would be top 3 or 4 easily…..Amare,Blake…AL?
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:24 pm
Najeh
I’m tryin’ to respond / bog gobbler ?
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:25 pm
blog globber, bog globbler, blob goggler, bob gloggler, whatever ?
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:26 pm
@O’Brien
He barely played…and yes i admit, his shot was not falling, but how could you bash him before the 120 million man..He shot a cool 43% from the field..and last year it was 38%..See this is what I don’t get..WE HAVE A MAX CONTRACT GUY WHO NEVER SHOWS UP ..but i see more Marvin bashing than Joe bashing..The hometown hero shot 39% from the field…
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:28 pm
http://www.nba.com/statistics/
hawkfan
May 15th, 2011
9:28 pm
umm no marvin will be a 20 ppg scorer, hawks were 8th place in the east 07-08 when we faced the celtics, common that was our first time in the playoffs in a LONG time
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:32 pm
Najeh
http://www.nba.com/statistics/
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
9:38 pm
“and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot”
I often criticize Joe — rightfully so — for dribbling too much and taking too long to make a decision with the ball. But one thing Joe does have is a willingness to pass the ball, even if he takes too long to decide who will be the recipient of his passes. When has Marvin ever shown an ability or willingness to pass the ball? Other than Zaza and Mo Evans, Marvin had the lowest assist rate of any regular on the Hawks this year. If you are going to be an offensive focal point, you need to be able to hit the open man when your shot is not available.
“Take away Josh’s Blocks and 20% success rate when he gambles for a steal, Marvin is a better defender than Josh”
Granny, statements like this are why you are my favorite commenter on this blog. You and Rick Sund.
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
9:55 pm
IMHO there are only 2 cats on the current roster that i believe will do what it takes to make themselves better to make the team better…Teague and Hinrich. JT ’cause he’ s lookin to take the next steps and Kirk ’cause he’s always played like that thru his career. everybody else…NADA!!!
Joe…this is me as a leader…take it or leave it…sorry if the team needs more…
Josh…stops takin’ jumpers…WHY???…sorry if the team thinks i should post more…
Al…i’m a 4 and i want some more touches…i USED to be on a glass mission…
Marvin…i was paid for what i brought in the past…sorry if the team needs more…don’t really like bball anyway…
LD CANNOT change what these cats decide to give despite what some seem to think!!! the relationships have been established and they are NOT held accountable. why should they change??? why should any of these core cats change when they ARE gonna continue to get paid and they will continue to get PT. if losin’ by 25-30 pts does not change these guys, what will??? NOTHIN’ as it already exist within the organization will, that’s for sure!!!
as much as i enjoyed the lil’ playoff run, this team does NOT get past ORL if ORL was fieldin’ the same team from last season IMHO.
there is a MUCH different mindset that is needed on this team and i do NOT think any of the ‘core’ comes back with ‘that’ needed change next season!!! WHY SHOULD THEY???
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:06 pm
I love how Horford keeps shrinking and shrinking. By the time next season starts ( if we have a next season ), Al will be a 6 – 4 PF
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:21 pm
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
5:20 pm
KevinM
For those who cannot afford to pay attention…..
–this is on the house–
Al @ the [4] and Josh @ the [3]
Josh @ the [5] and Al @ the [2]
who really cares !
In motion offense, they move from pos to pos anyway.
when a team runs a play – they put players in position to score.
The run a play for Joe, they don’t run a play for the [2] guard.
(same all ’round)
Defensively they match up according to match-ups.
Al -vs- Boozer or Al -vs- Noah, not # -vs- #.
+ PLUS +…..We neede size and had Collins or Zaza in
much of the time.
Would you prefer Al @ the [5]…Josh @ the [4]…
with…Collins / Zaza @ the [3]…would that satisfy all you folks ?
***********************
As a former coach, you know that a player has ( or can have ) different responsibilities, depending on what position he plays.
When Horford plays the 5 and Smith plays the 4, who should play down on the blocks? Our 2 ( seeing that JJ may arguably be our best post player )?
I mean, that’s the imbalance this teams faces. It isn’t necessarily what position they play, but how they play when they play that position. Both Smith and Horford would rather play on the outside. But we need somebody to play on the inside.
Al is perceived to be stronger than Josh. This is why he plays the 5. So when he plays the 5 against bigger players, he can’t play them like when he’s playing a 4 . . whom may take him out on the perimeter a little more ( like how Bass and Boozer did ).
Al defending the 5 means that he’ll have to defend around the rim a lot more, seeing that on most occasions, our 4 ( Smith ) is not going to be matched up against the bigger center.
Smith at the 3 means that he has to defend SFs who can shoot or slash. Smith at the 4 means that he’ll be defending PFs that can either post up or shoot midrange jumpers.
So while you are correct in some aspects, you can’t just overlook the position a person plays on the floor.
In other news, it’s nice to see Chicago defensively dominate Miami in this 2nd half. It doesn’t make us look as bad, but makes Chicago look better.
Worldwide Clyde
May 15th, 2011
10:21 pm
*yawn*
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:26 pm
@ Ken Strickland . . . nice to have you back.
And I will admit that from at least what I saw in the Chicago series, you were right about Teague. I guess like Drew, I was expecting Teague to just take control of the PG spot and leave no doubt as to who should be getting the most minutes there. I think Teague was very comfortable alongside JJ, because the attention JJ receives opens up the lane for Teague. And once Teague got the floater going, he really looked good.
So at least for the moment, I’m glad that you were right and I was wrong. Let’s just hope he can play like this next season, and finally put to rest on this team needing a PG.
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
10:28 pm
Big ray how can you say jc2 is a worse defender than mb, where do you get such nonsense,did you pull that out your butt. Everybody knows that Washington is not that strong of a team. They certainly got the better of the deal.
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:34 pm
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:02 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
I’ve often said over the last 3 years that I feel Al Horford is a hybrid player. He’s a PF who is capable of playing center. But you wouldn’t know that because you probably haven’t been around these blogs long enough. No big deal, no harm no foul.
But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you.
I didn’t say the Hawks aren’t small. Last I looked Zaza was 6′11 and 270, while Jason Collins is 7′0″ and 260 or so. My point is that the size itself isn’t the main problem. Mentality is.
The Hawks are small, but the bigger issue is that they PLAY small. Did it look to you like the Bulls dwarfed us out there? How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?
************************
100% Co-sign
Roddy
May 15th, 2011
10:41 pm
I think we need to follow the San Antonio blueprint when they Had David Robinson and that other guy from Wake Forest. Can’t think of his name right now. We need to trade Smoove and/or JJ to get Dwight Howard. He and Al would be together. We have Teague and Hinrick at the point. Just need a few defenders who can shoot threes.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
11:02 pm
I guess realistically ATL has for next season:
Horford
JJ
Josh
Kirk
Marvin
ZaZa
Teague
Sy
Hoping they re-sign:
Collins
Wilkens
That’s 10 players
Wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t re-sign:
Rolle
Armstrong
And then with our 2nd pick get Isaiah Thomas out of Washington, or another PG.
That’s 13 players the cheapest way possible, with Sy, Rolle, and this years 2nd pick receiving 2nd round money.
Sound about right for ASG
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
11:03 pm
too funny…on GONE FISHIN’ after the CHI/MIA game they had Joe with a t-shirt that read OVERPAID!!!
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
11:05 pm
actually as a fan…it’s sad!!!
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
11:15 pm
northcyde
“Smith at the 3 means
that he has to defend SFs who can shoot or slash”
If by saying that by playing the [3]
were assuming Al & [let's say] Zaza are in the game as well,
then yes.
Two points here:
(1) Josh has done a great job defending [3's] this yr [opinion]
(2) It has nothing to do with where Josh wishes to shoot the ball
or where he takes his shots, nor would that matter were he listed
as a [5] for that matter.
A player can play center on offense and guard a non-center on def.
Those were my greater points.
For that matter Josh should most probably be our [5]
in a small line-up and Al a [4] by everyone’s definition.
(see my Al Downing story)
Josh is more a center than Al.
Josh is longer and can jump higher.
Offensively he is better in the post than Al and
should be in there anyway.
Alot of folks get caught up in the semantics
of B-ball terminology or coach-speak and
occasionally fail to realize the nuances within.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
11:18 pm
Whomever posted the Josh & Teague
–for–
Steph Curry & Biedrins trade
–I’m in–
Curry is an emerging star.
We would and still need to trade back into the 1st round.
E43
May 15th, 2011
11:29 pm
No. The hawks need to build this team from what they have and stop doing all this wishful thinking. Lets not forget that the hawks were built based on Detroit’s championship team of interchangeable parts. Now we don’t have childress and Marvin and Smith trade talks have only gotten bigger. And that’s without even touching on the argument of Al horford the POWER FORWARD playing at center. They need to be able to line up and play before they even get to how to play the game. 6000 possible rotations just doesn’t cut it.
hawks4life
May 15th, 2011
11:55 pm
i dont like the idea of trading smoove. He has so much potential, and our team would lack defense and no one can get the crowd on their feet like he does. He needs LD to stop being so nice,,,and convince him that shooting threes is not acceptable. (granted, that would probably never happen). I think if trading Horford is at all possible, it should be done. He is playing out of postion and has a ton of potential if he played power forward.That point could be used as a selling point to other teams. He also brings great energy to the team
L.D. is a Clown
May 16th, 2011
12:01 am
What would have happed if Woody and LD would have seen the ability of Teague that so many fans, commentators and others saw? What would have happened if we had hired the Chicago coach away from Boston a year ago instead of keeping Woody knowing clearly that you were not going to bring him back? What if Joe did not take up so much of the salary cap? What if the Atlanta Spirit Group was able to spend more on free agents?
bjrufino
May 16th, 2011
1:09 am
my dream hawks lineup for next season
Teague
NIck young (sign as free agent)
Joe Johnson
Al HOrford
Dwight Howard (trade for marvin and josh smith)
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
1:25 am
I say trade Horford. Matter of fact I didn’t want to draft Horford. We needed a center that year and years later we still need a center.
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
1:31 am
Kris Humphries is a sleeper on this years free agent market.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2011
2:01 am
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
Ok, Joe is paid like a guy who should be first team All-NBA, but he’s not. You happy with that? Why is it that whenever somebody wants to compare an inferior player to Joe Johnson, the contract comes up?
I wish Marvin was the guy who was averaging 14 and 6 a game, as he was a few years back. But he’s not. I don’t care how much everyone else gets paid, Marvin is still the most timid, most deferring, and clumsiest guy in the starting lineup.
I mean, come on. You lose your starting spot to Jason Collins? Marvin isn’t in the game at the beginning. He’s not in the game at the end. He’s lost his ability to be effective and you swear up and down it’s becuase the man just doesn’t get enough shot attempts. Man, please. He can’t post up smaller players, gets pushed to the baseline at a bad angle when he drives, and now doesn’t hit open jumpers that often.
And none of that has ANYTHING to do with why a 6′9″ 240 lb guy can’t seem to rebound to save his life.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2011
2:07 am
Northcyde
As a former coach, you know that a player has ( or can have ) different responsibilities, depending on what position he plays.
When Horford plays the 5 and Smith plays the 4, who should play down on the blocks? Our 2 ( seeing that JJ may arguably be our best post player )?
I mean, that’s the imbalance this teams faces. It isn’t necessarily what position they play, but how they play when they play that position. Both Smith and Horford would rather play on the outside. But we need somebody to play on the inside.
Al is perceived to be stronger than Josh. This is why he plays the 5. So when he plays the 5 against bigger players, he can’t play them like when he’s playing a 4 . . whom may take him out on the perimeter a little more ( like how Bass and Boozer did ).
Co-sign. The imbalance can’t continue. And since we can’t get our guys to play bigger, then we must add size. Al goes or Josh goes, because this ownership group isn’t spending MORE money, especially if the CBA ends up lowering the salary cap.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2011
2:09 am
Grandad ,
I’d take somebody like Marc Gasol, but see, that’s how this organization operates. They don’t go after a guy BEFORE his team starts doing really well. The result is us adding guys like Joe Smith, Jason Collins, Josh Powell, etc. We either get them too late, or we get the wrong ones.
And the size/rebounding we need to add has to be in the STARTING LINEUP, not the bench. We have rebounding and physicality on the bench in the form of Zaza Pachulia. No, he isn’t the best backup center in the world, but he’s better than many out there. Gotta make those changes in the starting lineup.
Al goes, or Josh goes.
Atlanta Spirit Sucks
May 16th, 2011
2:24 am
Sund helped ruin the Sonics with an assist from a unscrupulous owner.
What did you expect Sund to do with a GROUP of unscrupulous owners who think they know basketball? Why did the DASG continue to leave Billy Knightmare in place for so long? It wasn’t his ability to scout and draft well. Do you really think the DASG hired Sund because he showed himself to be a superb GM?
See the whole truth, rolled out a little at a time:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Atlanta-Georgia/Atlanta-Spirit-Sucks/114671988618038
The time has come to unite Hawks and Thrashers fans and compare notes: RISE UP!
terrell
May 16th, 2011
6:11 am
In other words, WE’RE SCREWED. Gotta trade Joe, Al, or Josh. It’s the only way we can get better. Y in the heck did we give Joe all that $? Damn! I know we couldnt of used it elsewhere, but you just cant pay Robin Batman’s $. You just cant.
terrell
May 16th, 2011
6:13 am
Al just needs to learn how to play first. Tired of hearing that pf or center crap. He was garbage at BOTH positions when it mattered.
terrell
May 16th, 2011
6:18 am
LD has lost his freakin mind. This team was far worse than last year. If old stubborn butt Woody would have benched Marvin and replaced him with Collins or Zaza vs Orlando, maybe we pull the upset last year too. Not to mention, Orlando was a much better team a year ago. I take nothing from the Orlando upset this year. Absolutely nothing! Woody was bad, but LD is worse. Hire a REAL COACH.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
7:44 am
Big Ray
I’m with you all the way;
preferrably Josh being traded as opposed to Al.
I’m still of the belief that Joe can be moved.
I’m not willing to give Joe away
but would trade him for a talented Big.
*[..exp / Pau Gasol..]
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
8:20 am
Last night Chicago made me a Bulls fan.
If you are a fan of basketball;
what I call real, old school basketball,
then Chicago last eve was a clinic.
It was team -vs- “the big three”.
It was Thibs -vs- Stern.
It was “holy crap” defense -vs- “the decision”
It was passion [..Noah..] -vs- pure talent [..LeBron..]
It was “The Miami of Canada” -vs- South Beach.
It was floor burns -vs- Bibby
It was Rose v. Wade
It was the goll-durndest most smothering elite defense
that I’ve seen in the NBA in quite some time.
Makes an old man want to shed a tear.
Yep, I’ll be a Bulls fan until the play-offs are finished.
doug
May 16th, 2011
8:38 am
zaza @ center, al @ pf, Marvin @sf, teague @ pg, jj @ sg. That’s your first team. marvin has shown in the past that he will go to the basket and get fouled. imho. zaza is a hard nosed player and will not back down from anybody. give that a try and see if some cemistry and be found. imo that is a good defensive combo also. what do you think.
ChiTown
May 16th, 2011
8:41 am
Amen Grandad….one of the best team efforts I have ever witnessed at any level.
The Point Forward » Posts The Opening Tip: Monday, May 16 «
May 16th, 2011
8:55 am
[...] Michael Cunningham, Atlanta Journal-Constitution: I know there are lots of questions about what the Hawks can and should do. Honestly, they are difficult to answer without knowing what the new CBA rules will look like. The players quickly rejected the league’s latest offer, which reportedly proposed a hard salary cap and salary rollbacks. What will be the amount of the salary cap? What about the luxury tax? Will there be an amnesty provision to allow teams to shed salary? Will there still be cap exceptions and, if not, what about those teams whose payrolls are above the new salary cap? … Under the current rules it’s hard to see how the Hawks could even fill out the roster with the minimum 13 players without paying the tax. Right now their options are limited to trades and using exceptions to acquire players whose salaries that don’t put them over the tax level. Assuming the tax threshold is about the same as it was the past three seasons, about $70 million, the Hawks would have roughly $3 million of wiggle room to sign six players. Again, that’s based on the current rules and some assumptions. With the way things are going with the labor situation, who knows what the new system will look like when the league starts playing basketball again. But clearly the Hawks, like all teams, are counting on new rules more favorable to owners. … [Joe Johnson] seemed to hit on a similar theme when asked about the team’s needs. “For us it’s guys like blue-collar guys, guys who do a lot of dirty work and do a lot of things that don’t show up in stat book,” J.J. said. “Those are the kind of guys that can help us out. We will see what happens. We’ve gotten better each year. Our postseason [this year] was probably the best it’s been.” [...]
dj dascorpian
May 16th, 2011
8:59 am
Saw the game with Miami Heat and the Bulls. The Bulls are solid fundementally, and they run plays in the halfcourt set. Derrick Rose is their key player. Miami played Chicago almost like Atlanta with the iso’s with the “big three”, but it didn’t work. TNT’s Kenny Smith’s analysis was on point: Miami will not win this series with the that kind of play. Miami will adjust. The Hawks need a coach that has experience and coaching from a defensive standpoint and aquire guys who are willing to throw their bodies around for the sake of the team-as does Chicago. Let this series be a lesson-to Sund, LD, and the rest of the Hawks management-Yes, Chicago should be a blue print for aspiring teams to emulate. Atlanta has a prototype player (Jeff Teague), who can be developed into an aggressive animal such as Rose. I know you can’t teach heart, but you sure can get a player to develop his game to the point of confidence that a Rose type MVP player can accomplish. Everyone knows the MJ story. College players are looking at these playoffs as well. Only a few will take their game to the next level to develop themselves into an MVP calliber talent.
doc
May 16th, 2011
9:02 am
yeah grandad, i was becoming a believer in chitown early on and really liked what i saw live during the regular season and play offs at the phillips. i must admit last night was the first time i was really able to sit down and concentrate on them and it was wonderful. by the third quarter i was doing fist pumps as they were taking it to the heat. they made the heat big three amigos look as feeble as our big three and maybe it might even put our guys in a different perspective after it is all over.
loved your comment about stern vs. thibs. sad to say it is so true. can you believe a group of professional refs did not give a tech on a 6 against 5 on the court and simply stopped the clock and did a do over? in order for chicago to beat stern it will take several knockouts just like last night. with the analogy to fighting, i said last night that the heat may not be able to answer the bell for seven nights against this team.
also, do you like taj gibson as much as i do. now why do we not have akir instead of glayrs for turkey. man the hawks suck and really hate to find devlopmental bigs dont they instead marching out the old broken down models like etan.
any doubts that bibby isnt and wasnt done? i am glad we got kirk but we paid too much because we had a coach unable to utilize and build all his resources. sorry, that is now true and on his resume just as it was on woody’s. mo and bibby for hinrich would have and should have been enough. maybe throw in the draft pick but hilton for jordan which it was? now that was a steal for the wiz in our panic.
dj dascorpian
May 16th, 2011
9:06 am
Thunder and Mavs-good series. I like the Thunder in the Finals.
doc
May 16th, 2011
9:23 am
gd, one more thing, all that happened on a relatively quiet night by rose where he was apologizing to his team at half time. now, that is accountability. where is that quality in our lead dog?
is there a vegas line on when the queen quits in this series?
vava74
May 16th, 2011
9:30 am
Against CHI’s defense and in particular against Bogans and Deng:
Wade 7/17
Lebron 5/15
If CHI keeps it up, JJ’s numbers (without similar quality help from other guys to attract defenses)
will not look that bad.
Geemack
May 16th, 2011
9:30 am
Grandad
I must admit I hate the Bulls, but I’m a fan of great basketball.
The defensive performance the Bulls put on last night was very impressive.
However here is my questions. Why can’t the Hawks who are just as talented play that way?
They beat the Heat hustle and great defensive intensity.
HoosierHawk
May 16th, 2011
9:33 am
Compare Horford to Josh in this year’s playoffs. I like Horford’s attitude better, but he has higher trade value and does not really bring it on the defensive end. If we trade Josh and do not get a shot blocking center in return, we will be the softest team in the NBA.
Peter
May 16th, 2011
9:35 am
How do you win with a group that plays their own way and doesn’t listen to any coach ?
doc
May 16th, 2011
10:05 am
yes and vava, josh smith’s series against the bulls will look a whole lot better.
al’s will still suck!!!!!!! no excuses, his injury from blake was history.
and zaza and teague; increased cred, babeee!!
geemack, you see it, i am sure knowing your bball acumen so that was rhetorical. they play that way until they look and not see any reinforcements on the bench. never was there a quarter this year that saw al and josh both on the bench flagging on the other two young bigs off the bench as they manhandled, posterized and went to he floor or offensive boards the wat asik and gibson do. there wasnt a watkins off the bench to lead the break or get a busted play back on course with a saved t o and turn it into a three pointer while rose rests. bogans is not your father’s maaarvin. get the differences now for starters? and thibs is in chicago. anything else? they also dont have the askg.
again if this keeps up then our hawks comparably look better as i said last night after the first half.
KCG
May 16th, 2011
10:08 am
I hate to say it but JJ is the biggest problem with this team. Like Charles Barkley said on 790 “It does not matter which industry you’re working in, the highest paid person is always expected to produce more” The entire Hawks team takes on the personality of JJ. That’s why they’re so soft and don’t care sometimes. How would you feel if someone at your job got paid dbl your salary for practically doing the same thing or for even doing less than what you do. JJ’s salary and performance gives every Hawks player an excuse for not playing well. In the back of their minds they are thinking “Well its not like JJ is playing any better and he makes twice as much as I do”. I would trade JJ before anybody else, this is the only way to change the culture of the team.
vava74
May 16th, 2011
10:13 am
GeeMack,
Obviously this is too early in the series but why don’t you put that same question to MIA?
With such great 3 players together, why can’t they beat “less talent”?
The answer is simple:
COACHING
Thibs was a major party in the Celtics’ success and they missed him this year.
He was COY. A very deserving one.
We played a decently good series but we were out coached, because beyond the X’s and O’s (where there was a marked improvement since last year), hustle can also be coached: you bench the guys who don’t hustle/play according to instructions, regardless of status.
Early in the season, Boozer (80 million contract) was benched in the 4th quarter because he was not getting it done.
He went to the press and whine and then quickly apologized. I am 100% sure that he was told to shut up, hustle and then he would get to play and that if not, he would not even see the daylight.
Some of our guys received the completely opposite treatment: disobeyed orders and did not get penalized:
When JJ pounded too much and went astray from a collective game, he should have been “sanctioned” (bear in mind that he still deserves some ISO plays per game), but he didn’t;
When Smoove went perimeter happy, he should have been “sanctioned”, but he didn’t;
When Al became soft and whining as girl, he should have been “sanctioned”, but he didn’t;
When Jamal showed no interest in even trying to play D or improve his shot selection, he should have been “sanctioned”, but he didn’t.
The only guys that was sanctioned when he made a mistake were Teague and the bottom of the bench guys!!!
SteveW
May 16th, 2011
10:30 am
I feel better now that Chicago destroyed Miami. Maybe we’re not so bad after all so to speak.
Chicago is just 12 deep and TT knows how to use his depth.
Everybody seems to know their role.
No agendas to keep superior talent on the bench.
No head cases.
No prima donnas
Just BB players with an amazing PG in Rose.
SteveW
May 16th, 2011
10:30 am
I know we can never be certain, but I wonder who would win if LD coached Chicago and TT coached the Hawks?
My guess would be the Hawks.
SteveW
May 16th, 2011
10:32 am
During the Exit Interviews I wonder if management told Al to work on his post game and get stronger?
Wonder what they told Josh?
Rusty
May 16th, 2011
10:32 am
Get rid of that dumb coach
ILL-Logical
May 16th, 2011
10:56 am
@KCG
May 16th, 2011
10:08 am
My point exactly. After taking a moment to reflect on the Hawk’s season, I have come to the conclusion that as the old adage states-the same rope that pulled you up can hang you- the contract thaat brought Joe Johnson to Atlanta and caused the rift that continues to cloud the team’s future because of the same ,minus one-the seemingly smart one,owners continue to practice Joe-ism.
Every decision from Coach,style of play and financial revolves around Joe and his status with the team. And while Joe the player has paid some dividends; his contracts are killing the the team’s growth and potential. And it isn’t like he is going to get any better.
The Chicago Way? No way ,unless there is new ownership who might look at Dallas; an ambitious and wealthy owner bought a stagnant yet promising franchise from a group of bickering owners and look at them now.I don’t want to keep up the straw man arguments that continue after every loss. trade this one or that one when the problems begin at the top.
doc
May 16th, 2011
11:00 am
yes vava.
as far as the iso offense as the tnt guys put it iso wont work against teams that play set plays and dont fall apart on offense or defense. both sides take discipline with defense requiring more effort.
PBT Monday morning one liners | ProBasketballTalk
May 16th, 2011
11:15 am
[...] hard to talk about improving the Hawks without knowing what the new CBA will be. Once we all do know, we’ll see just how insanely [...]
Fundamentals
May 16th, 2011
11:16 am
Bulls definitely proved what real team basketball is all about. I agree that the Queen and her court will collapse if Chicago can go up 3-1. They might just make our showing look good against the Bulls.
My issues with the team is our lack of passion and professionalism. I’ve said it 1000 times. We played them toe to toe in a few games, we gave a few away without even trying. They embarassed us at home twice, especially in the final game. Why can’t we bring it when it counts? We don’t play team ball every night, and thus we’re at home watching a team we very possibly should’ve beat? Will that make our kids work harder over the offseason? Time will tell, at least now we can raise the bar to ECF? Maybe even higher with a few key moves. Wherever we set the bar…that’s where they’ll stop. Why not ask for a championship? Isn’t that why we play the game?
We enter next season with the same questions and no answers.
Thank you Jeff Teague for showing us how to raise our game when it matters. Thank you for playing with heart, professionalism and skill when it really counted. I look forward to seeing more of you next season.
I MUS WRITE
May 16th, 2011
11:23 am
So basicly we dont have the money to sign the players or the coach we need. Same ol same ol in 2011-2012…………….Wow They thought attendance was bad last year….
I MUS WRITE
May 16th, 2011
11:28 am
Ray dont waste your time pointing out the obvious when it comes to Marvin -some people just dont wanna see/hear the truth including our current and former coach….This guy is terrible and so is his contract……Pape Sy would give us more if he played those minutes…..
JAke
May 16th, 2011
11:37 am
Trade Al horford for Andrew Bynum
PG.Teague
SG.Hinrick
SF.Joe Johnson
PF.Josh Smith
C.Andrew Bynum
doc
May 16th, 2011
11:38 am
fundamentals:
My issues with the team is our lack of passion and professionalism.
my problem is with the askg who does not get the resources or a coach. i said before the series against the magic that i thought they would only last 5 games unless they really needed the rest and the last 6 games of the season were to recharge the batteries. they often come out strong and then fade as the depth isnt there.
they did well until the fatigue factor set in with the bulls and that happens when you are 7 playing against 9 to 11 over time. it is also what the heat may find as they are thin, too especially against big quick aggressive bigs. anthony cannot hold his own there and mike miller wont provide much. funny korver is playing defense and miller cant get healthy and i might have taken miller over korver. well, not really because i have liked his game and effort for awhile but it is to make a point that the bulls grew with their coach and either they got the guys who had talent or they got coached up and got better instead of floundering waiting for a chance off the bench.
dawgrific
May 16th, 2011
11:50 am
What happened to Al’s low post game. Was I dreaming when I recalled him having a baby-hook shot and a few other moves down low. Now it seems that he is only a 12-18 foot “shooter.” Also, I don’t believe Josh will ever give up wanting to be an outside shooter. The shame of his game is he IS a good ball-handler and passer, and I think that makes him think that he is a good shooter as well. If he committed himself to being a low post player in the half-court offense, I truly believe that he could be almost unstoppable. I don’t believe that will ever happen however, and that makes me think that we could be better moving him while his value is still (I assume) relatively high.
northcyde
May 16th, 2011
11:52 am
JJ’s contract isn’t doing anything of the sort. Not yet at least.
Some people act like he’s making 20 million a year already. The only way that JJ’s contract wouldn’t hurt the team, would be for the Hawks to not have him on the team at all . . and to not have added anybody over the summer.
People were talking about signing John Salmons in place of JJ at 1/2 the price. Is that what people really want around here?
If JJ is Robin, what is Salmons? Alfred?
northcyde
May 16th, 2011
12:04 pm
And people need to stop throwing out the word “potential” around here. There comes a point to where you see what a guy is as a player. When a guy is into his 6th or 7th year, and you’re still talking about his “potential”, his window of opportunity to drastically improve may have passed him by. Then, by the time you realize that his “potential” will not materialize the way you wanted it to, it’s already too late.
JChikara
May 16th, 2011
12:07 pm
I don’t know if this is possible, but is there a way that Atlanta could trade Josh Smith for say, the number two pick in this year’s draft (even if they have to do it with other salaried players) and select SF Derrick Williams from Arizona?
shawn
May 16th, 2011
12:13 pm
the scary thing about the bulls is they are under the salary cap now! and they are on d12 list of teams he would go to by trading boozer and asik and the 5 first round draft picks they have for the next 2years they would be unstopable imangine rose/freeagent/deng/noah/howard who could stop that lineup being coach by thibs Hawks we need to make serious moves the bulls went from 8seed to first in one year and were happy we won two games in the semi against a team who was put together over the summer! last but maybe most important the bulls payroll is 56mil the hawks is 67mil how are we paying 11mil more for this team did you all watch the game last night that team is below the cap we need changes doing the samething over expecting different result is INSANE!
Geemack
May 16th, 2011
12:14 pm
@Vava74
I’m a Hawks and Lakers fan. I could careless about the way the Heat played. Also the Heat are in the Eastern conference finals and still have the opportunity to change their fate, with improve play.
I do agree with you that coaching is a major issue with the way this team plays.
Also I think roster changes will be made without addressing the coaching issue…first.
As a Hawks fan it’s hard for me to stomach, our team losing to a less talented, and less experienced team because, we didn’t play hard. SMH.
alk
May 16th, 2011
12:17 pm
What can the ASG boys do, to clean their mess? They have several players with unwieldy contracts, who don’t want to play, and probably no teams willing to take a chance on without the hawks paying a huge portion of their contracts.
And of course the players see that there is no punishment for their antics, so why change?
So, the hawks will probably continue play this when, until their contracts expire?
How about a preemptive strike, my ownership, trade or buyout the contracts of everyone, except the over paid trouble makers. Bring in development league players to fill out the team. ASG can afford those guys.
Then run our trouble making out there on the floor for the whole 150 minutes, every game. Or as large a portion of that, as possible.
And with the help they’ll have, if the tm’s don’t bust their behinds, they will lose most every game. Along with any respect they might have, from the rest of the league, for their potential abilities.
Yes, it sounds extreme and a little petty, but nothing else that’s been tried has had any affect on these over paid babies.
I wonder if the other teams fans, who seem to be in the majority, in Atlanta, will even come out for the games?
Other benefits, a buyer for the team can pick it up for a song. And either bring the right people to run it, or move it?
All the mental energy from fans, wasted on the hawks, could then be directed to the other Atlanta teams, that yearly fall short of their potential.
That’s my two cents worth.
alk
vava74
May 16th, 2011
12:22 pm
JJ’s numbers against CHI:
Conf. Semifinals ATL G6 GS6 mpg41.5 FG% 0.489 3FG% 0.500 FT%0.889 oreb0.5 dreb2.2 rpg2.7 apg3.2 spg1.7 bpg0.0 topg2.5 pfpg1.7 ppg19.7
If anything, either JJ failed to shoot enough to try and carry us or the Hawks failed to execute an offense that allowed our best player to shoot more when we needed him to.
It’s obviously early in the series but CHI contained Wade to 7/17 and Lebron to 5/15 with only 4FTs each.
It’s very difficult for CHI to replicate this but this game allows to think that if Lebron and Wade which are Batman and Batman could not get it done (and it was their Alfred (Bosh) who got free enough to get a good offensive night) then JJ without any significant help had it tough to do much better.
Heck, Jamal was miserable, Diaper Al was missing in action for most games, Josh cannot be relied upon co-carrying an offense… and it ended up being Teague who managed to keep defenses honest.
With Thibs this same group of guys would have been put in line and executing much better on both ends of the floor.
vava74
May 16th, 2011
12:25 pm
Geemack,
“As a Hawks fan it’s hard for me to stomach, our team losing to a less talented, and less experienced team because, we didn’t play hard. SMH.”
You are not entirely right: POOR/LACK OF DISCIPLE COACHING ALLOWED THIS HAPPEN.
The players tried much harder than last year but there were lapses in coaching/preparation/mindset (and some really bad officiating in crucial moments) that little by little created the conditions for them being over matched.
Teezo
May 16th, 2011
12:30 pm
After a nice roundtable with my homeboys I came to realize that JJ will not be traded unless its to a up & coming team that needs a vet and Im pretty sure there isn’t a team out there that fits the bill…Anyway, this team HAS to get rid of Smith or Horford in a package deal to get a sidekick for JJ, whether its a big body or wing player…JJ needs a partner, as someone said, Teague had to floor opened up because of the JJ double/triple teams so imagine what another player of JJ calibar would do…This team is only missing a 2nd threat and effort…For those bashing JJ, look at what CHI did to Wade/James…That is a team that knows who to take out of games and who to let take over, they knew Bosh couldn’t beat em by himself….I call that good coaching, something we don’t have…Peace…
shawn
May 16th, 2011
12:33 pm
Ppl who still believe in josh are fooling themselves it not like he does’nt have talent. he is a head case he just doesn’t play to his strength and it hurts the team. he has been in the league 7 years its time to move on. another thing joe should avg somewhere near 18 to 20 shot a game this ideal that horford gets 12 shoot smoove get 14 shoots and on and one this team needs to know there role in the offense because it seem to me everyone thinks they are equal.
Teezo
May 16th, 2011
12:36 pm
vava74…Thats my only problem with JJ, is that he needs to be more aggressive…He needs to make it his goal to put up at least 20 shots a game just to keep the defense on their toes…His best attribute is that he’s a willing passer…
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:44 pm
“O’Brien
May 15th, 2011
6:46 pm
Congrats to OKC”
These guys are so young, it is amazing what they have accomplished. They now have Dallas instead of the Lakers. A big gift…no one picked Dallas, and they swept! OKC is in very good shape.
Grandad, way back, you say positions don’t matter, but they do where Josh ends up on the court. You aren’t allowing a big man to stand out there at the 3 pt line and wait his turn; he is supposed to be pounding the boards. That suggestion wasn’t meant to have Josh play with Al at all. Al is not tough enough on the defensive end, which is why Josh defends Noah, Howard and any other big move than Al. Al wants to stay away from the contact. I don’t care his accolades at this point. I am still waiting for him to show all-star form in the playoffs. IMO, Josh is as worth an all-star slot as Al.
I simply don’t want Josh facing the basket at 19 feet. He isn’t driving to the basket. We’re talking about a 80-90 percent level of wasing that offensive possession. Having Josh inside on offense removes that waste. One small step that can be done without doing anything else.
Let Marvin stand out there and do nothing; it’s symbolic with what he has become anyway.
SteveW, LD doesnt deal with the defense. He is all about improving the offense. How did that go this year? .500 says a lot to the improvement of moving the ball. At least move the ball towards the basket some of the time.
MC points out that we have what, 3M for the last 6 slots. I find that totally humorous. NO ONE saw this coming after last summer’s big signing? Hard to fathom that management has everything under control and is continuing on their original plan.
Has LD told us lately how much of a nightmare it will be for opponents to match up with our versatility? Ugh.
I want to add ‘Blow it up’ to my sig’…if I had a sig.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:46 pm
And as the saying goes, we go as Joe goes…..I think we need to shop for another #1, whether that be an elite player or a top tier draft pick. It fits for both situations.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:54 pm
Thoughts to ponder, but don’t take too long…
- Would DRose be the MVP under the Woody/LD regime?
- Would Asik/Gibson be trusted by LD if the unit continued to play well?
- Would Deng be forced to stand out the 3 pt line in LD’s scheme? What, no slashing to the basket allowed?
Small bits but I am sure there’s more that can be presented for LD’s strategies…..
dj dascorpian
May 16th, 2011
12:55 pm
KCG
May 16th, 2011
10:08 am
I hate to say it but JJ is the biggest problem with this team. Like Charles Barkley said on 790 “It does not matter which industry you’re working in, the highest paid person is always expected to produce more” The entire Hawks team takes on the personality of JJ. That’s why they’re so soft and don’t care sometimes. How would you feel if someone at your job got paid dbl your salary for practically doing the same thing or for even doing less than what you do. JJ’s salary and performance gives every Hawks player an excuse for not playing well. In the back of their minds they are thinking “Well its not like JJ is playing any better and he makes twice as much as I do”. I would trade JJ before anybody else, this is the only way to change the culture of the team.
KCJ: You are exactly on point. J.J. is the biggest problem “elephant in the room”, so to speak. Yes, it can be a difficult sell to all of the other Hawks players, who look at J.J. hugh contract and look at what he isn’t doing and use it as an excuse for their poor performance. That is why you have to cut your losses and try to get some other team like the Suns where you have a speedy point guard like Nash and a beast like Stoudemire and other role players where J.J. can fit right in. J.J. doesn’t want to be spot-lighted as the feature guard. J.J. just wants amenity and he will do his thing as a second or third option player. Since the Hawks probably are not going to keep him, two things have to happen. Get rid of AL Horford. Keep Josh, then get a shot blocker/rebounder with a low post back to the basket presence. Al plays best when his back is away from the basket. Look at Bosh. What’s the difference? Bosh can hit that 15 to 20 ft jumper at different spots. Al has to be stationed in position at the foul line-and he have to time-misses. Bosh is taller and can block shots. Al’s not so tall-and definately_not intimadating. I still say that Al’s game and attitude toward the post_up game was greatly influenced by that MacTruck hit from Blake Griffen. They say that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger-well, that being said, Al-we didn’t see it so you must be dead.
ant banks
May 16th, 2011
12:55 pm
shawn
May 16th, 2011
12:13 pm
the scary thing about the bulls is they are under the salary cap now! and they are on d12 list of teams he would go to by trading boozer and asik and the 5 first round draft picks they have for the next 2years they would be unstopable imangine rose/freeagent/deng/noah/howard who could stop that lineup being coach by thibs Hawks we need to make serious moves the bulls went from 8seed to first in one year and were happy we won two games in the semi against a team who was put together over the summer! last but maybe most important the bulls payroll is 56mil the hawks is 67mil how are we paying 11mil more for this team did you all watch the game last night that team is below the cap we need changes doing the samething over expecting different result is INSANE!
I TOTALLY AGREE!!! CHICAGO, NOT THE HEAT, WILL WIN THE NEXT 3,4, 5 RINGS IF THEY GET D12
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
1:06 pm
from Atlanta
Marvin Williams + Kirk Hinrich + Al Horford
from Milwaukee
Larry Sanders + Andrew Bogut + John Salmons + Drew Goodens contract
Jeff Teague/John Salmons (big guards that can post up Derrick Rose)
Joe Johnson/John Salmons/Travis Leslie? (big guards that can post up Derrick Rose)
Josh Smith (228-230lbs)/John Salmons
Larry Sanders/Josh Smith/Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Zaza Pachulia/Jason Collins/Gooden
::::::+draft blue collar bigs, guards, (have enough forwards)
Milwaukee fans on realgm were receptive to this. Sanders has a much longer wingspan and room to increase strength (compared to Smith)(potential)
and Bogut’s wingspan, man to man and overall Defensive Awareness and strength are better than Horford’s.
Milwaukee gets an athletic center, and loses their 5-year contracts we match up with anyone in the league.
-obviously JC will walk, hopefully he has a future with the organization but due to the contract JJ received we cannot commit much salary to scorers with Salmons aboard.
-You’re welcome
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
1:21 pm
Its obvious now, but I like that OKC went out at the deadline and brought in Perkins and Mohammed and made their backline that much deeper. They now have flexibility for Ibaka and Collison, and Aldrich now won’t get a uni. That looks like one of the worse draft decisions so far from last year.
Lil Nate and Royal Ivey aren’t even seeing the court time….that scout team is probably competitive though…and they’re committed to only 50M at this point for next year.
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
1:26 pm
Marvin will be a 20pt scorer in the rec league at LA Fitness
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:33 pm
Grandad – why do you assume we ALL want Al to be a PF and for us to get a center. I have said our biggest problem was PG and SF. I felt we had the PG and should have addressed the SF problem. I would love to have an athletic C (i.e. Chandler, etc. or a VERY short list), but rather have a SF. Al is an All-Star and Center! Hit the weight room and play center!
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:34 pm
I doubt Marvin will average 20 ppg at the 40+ church league! This guy just does not have it.
myrak43
May 16th, 2011
1:38 pm
bjrufino
May 16th, 2011
1:09 am
you wrote “my dream hawks lineup for next season
Teague
NIck young (sign as free agent)
Joe Johnson
Al HOrford
Dwight Howard (trade for marvin and josh smith)”
before you all just throw trade moves out there plz ask yourself would the other team do it. I mean if you where a Magic fan would you what them to trade Howard for Marvin and Josh?
Hey why not just trade Marvin and Josh for Dwight Howard and Horofrd and Teague for Chris Paul. then sign free agents Andrei Kirilenko,Carl Landry, Troy Murphy, Jamal Crawford, T-Mack, Tayshaun Prince. line up
Chris Paul/Kirk
JJ/ Crawford
Prince/Tmack
Andrei Kirilenko/landry
Howard/Zaza
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:44 pm
I do think the Hawks should try to get Nick Young (FA) – he should have been part of this season’s deal. Hilton Armstrong is a joke!
Opoets
May 16th, 2011
1:54 pm
I have been a Hawks fan for 36 years. During this time they have never been in a title game, made some of the worst draft picks, and have consistently had a bunch of boobs running the organization. What makes you think the next 36 years will be any different?
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:02 pm
Rudy Gay on the trading block, Joe would be perfect in Memphis.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:07 pm
were did you hear that? he just signed a contract in Memphis. I am sure they are having cap problems and Gasol and Randolph are FA
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:09 pm
JOE FOR RUDY AND TONEY
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:16 pm
Marc Gasol will be a restricted free agent in July and Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley believes he’ll retain his young center.
“Marc will decide whether he wants to be here. We will aggressively go after him,” Heisley told ESPN.com’s Marc Stein. “He’s a restricted free agent, so we can match whatever’s out there. But obviously if Marc wants to leave, I’m going to have a different attitude than if he wants to stay. I hope he wants to stay. And after what we’ve done in the playoffs, I think he will.”
The Grizzlies will have one of the best starting frontlines in the NBA next season with Gasol, Zach Randolph and the return of Rudy Gay.
The Grizzlies payroll will rise significantly next season and while Gasol will return, the player most likely to move on is shooting guard O.J. Mayo. Heisley simply can’t afford to pay everyone a big salary and Mayo will probably be the player to be traded in the offseason.
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
STARTERS TEAGUE, RUDY, JOSH, HORFORD, ?
Sign and trade jamal for Samuel Dalembert.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
Demarcus Cousins will be the starting center for Kings next year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
2:19 pm
@MC what do you think?
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith*/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
obviously there is trepidation in starting Teague but if the organization is serious they make this move and pressure Teague into working on his game and stay in constant contact with him.
Hire him a summer workout coach and tell him that we believe in him being the catalyst for the offense going forward. We cannot keep trying to turn out 6′2 shooting guards. His/Hawks optimal future is as a pick and roll point guard.
This is what Rose did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tdwMyzvQss
Height Wingspan Weight
Derrick: 6′2.5 6′8 196
Jeff Teague: 6′1.5 6′7.5 180+
Chris Paul: 6′1 6′ 4.25″ 180+
very similar attributes and Teague has shown he can hold his own. His PER (contributions made per minute) during the playoffs was 17.3. Rajon Rondo’s was 17.1.
We have an elite athlete who is starting to shake off some of his rawness at the position. We need to develop his offensive awareness, pick and roll awareness, etc starting now.
Get the team the defensive centers and forwards from Milwaukee. Al Horford has done much for this team but Hawks have to transition to a winning team and Atlanta needs rugged interior defense if they ever hope to reach the ECF.
Hawks cannot trade Smith and stick with Marvin at small forward. We need to take on Gooden, Bogut, Salmons and Sanders.
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:23 pm
UPDATE: ESPN’s John Hollinger doesn’t agree that the Grizzlies are necessarily better without Gay in the lineup.
“Look at what they did when a) they were playing Tony Allen, and b) Gay was still healthy,” he wrote. “Memphis was crushing people. The reason the ‘with Gay”numbers aren’t strong is because in the beginning of the year Memphis had Xavier Henry starting, Allen getting DNPs and Acie Law as the backup PG, facts that have nothing whatsoever to do with Gay.”
Either way, it’s possible someone on Memphis could be the odd man out due to payroll concerns.
—
The Grizzlies have been the surprise of the 2010-11 NBA Playoffs, as the No. 8 seed got past the Spurs in the first round and currently are knotted up 2-2 with the Thunder in the Western Conference semifinals.
The Grizzlies have done it all without Rudy Gay — who got a large contract this past summer from the team — due to a shoulder injury.
And it’s leaving NBA.com’s David Aldridge to wonder if Memphis should think about trading him this summer.
“They’ve gone from a team where Gay was the (understandable) offensive focal point to a more balanced unit, with the ball going inside on almost every possession to either Zach Randolph or Marc Gasol,” he wrote. ” … Memphis owner Michael Heisley is never going to have a $90 million payroll. He’s already on the hook for Randoph, and point guard Mike Conley (starting his five-year, $44 million extension next season), and will have to pay rising restricted free agent Marc Gasol big bucks to keep him around. Gay’s $82 million extension suddenly sticks out like a sore thumb for a small-market team.”
If the team ever entertained the idea, the Clippers — who could stand an upgrade at small forward — would potentially be one team interested in Gay.
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:23 pm
If we could trade for Gay and dump Marvin and possibly Hinrich. Can’t resign Jamal. Have to see if this would work.
Blast
May 16th, 2011
2:46 pm
MC,
Nice article, but the following blog reponse is the most boring I have ever had to read since you took over. Boring, boring, boring comments, all 8 pages of it.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
2:53 pm
@darrel starks
Joe Johnson’s contract and age are not ideal for Memphis to trade Rudy Gay. It would contradict them trading for cap relief.
Even if we did manage Joe for Rudy. Our problem would still be we that we cannot compete on the boards with a 6′8 and 6′9.75 PF/C combination with 7′0 wingspans. Lebron James has a 7′0 wingspan, he plays the 3.
Even with all their athleticism the Heat are not as good a rebounding team or defensive team as Chicago. Unless you have all star scorers at all 5 positions you need a center to win in this league.
Jamal Crawford walks. necessary evil of $ mismanagement
Josh Smith becomes 230 lbs. we need to defend and run.
Al Horford becomes Andrew Bogut. we need to DEFEND and then run.
Marvin Williams becomes Larry Sanders. we need to DEFEND and then run.
Jamal Crawford becomes John Salmons. a big guard who is 31 but can defend and run.
Kirk Hinrich becomes Jeff Teague. Jeff Teague needs to develop into a point guard/show his talent.
If all else fails Teague can be packaged for a proven point guard? I doubt he fails if the organization puts the onus on him and that he has responsibility for this team ala Rondo ala Tony Parker.
Just because he was drafted midround and because we lost a lot for Hinrich doesnt mean the organization cant admit its mistakes and commit to winning.
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith*/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
Salmons*/Gooden*/Pachulia
Kurt Thomas types, Taj Gibson types. strong blue collar rebounders, defenders. not more high paid shooters.
free agency/draft: ???
Geemack
May 16th, 2011
3:10 pm
Magic Johnson
Al and Josh should be those blue collar guys to do the dirty work. It would be different if they were big time scorers, but they are not. They should be doing all the dirty rebounding and defensive things.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
3:12 pm
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith (SF-PF lose weight)/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
Salmons (PG-SG-SF)/ /Gooden*/Pachulia
free agency: Jeff Adrien ?? short but has strength in his rebounding base and quick to the ball.
idk if there are any 7′1 Semih Erdens or 7′0, 260 Omer Asik’s lying around … that’s where scouting comes in ATL. Chinemelu Elonu? he’s signed overseas rangy energy player…
drmaryb (*_-)
May 16th, 2011
3:13 pm
Go North My Friend!
Atlanta Spirit, True North in negotiations about Thrashers sale, relocatio
By Chris Vivlamore
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Atlanta Spirit has begun negotiations with True North Sports and Entertainment on the sale of the Thrashers, which would result in relocation to Winnipeg, according to a person familiar with the NHL’s sale process.
A deal has not been completed and it is also not known how long the two sides have been negotiating. However, the fact that talks are on-going could mean the Thrashers would relocate to Manitoba perhaps as soon as next season.
_____________________
Be on the watch for this sale.
______________________
In other News:
Shannon Brown of the Lakers, allegedly had relations with Pau Gasol’s significant other, thereby leading to the team’s demise in round 2 and being swept by the Mavericks. Shannon Brown has recently married the R&B singer, Monica. Shannon tweeted today that he did not have relations with that woman. Sounds familiar?
_______________________
David Stern has released the starting point for the new CBA negotiations on behalf of the NBA. Looks like there will be a battle. Stern is suggesting that the luxury tax be removed and is attempting to remove guaranteed contracts. Looks like Stern wants a soft cap with a limit of 45M with allowances to exceed that soft cap to a hard limit.
_________________
Confusing! Yes.
________________
-drmaryb- The Entertainment Reporter
Rabbi
May 16th, 2011
3:22 pm
The Hawks have no heart and no one to lead them. JJ is too passive and meek. There will be some games when your shot is not falling but there is absolutely no excuse for not playing D and not going all out….especially in a game 6 situation in your building….UNACCEPTABLE. All the talk about how athletic this bunch is but are they truly willing to go all out to get what they say they want…I don’t c it…….
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
3:28 pm
Opoets
May 16th, 2011
1:54 pm
I have been a Hawks fan for 36 years. During this time they have never been in a title game, made some of the worst draft picks, and have consistently had a bunch of boobs running the organization. What makes you think the next 36 years will be any different?
FIRE LD
BigTimeTECHFan
May 16th, 2011
3:29 pm
They could sign C Paul, L James, D Howard and they would still be the same if Joe Johnson just keep dribbling the ball around. Hawks have talant, need coach to make them play right.
Neki Ecko
May 16th, 2011
4:01 pm
@Magic Johnson
I would trade with GSW before I trade with Bucks, Seriously. Bogut is okay, but he disappear way too much there and nother of those guys that Bucks is leader and got toughness. I say let find the new face and leader of this team.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
4:30 pm
@Neki Ecko
Golden State is famous for going small and having offensive oriented players instead of defense.
Atlanta was ranked 15th in points allowed.
Milwaukee was ranked 4th.
Golden State was ranked 26th. Trading for their big men is to be avoided. Larry Sanders and Bogut have more length and size than Golden State and the numbers prove it.
Atlanta needs defense and blue collar and Horford+Williams+Hinrich for Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden is what is necessary to shore up our front line.
All the other alternatives would require a superstar to overcome the defensive/rebounding deficiencies. and even that model can fail
(see Chicago vs Miami) Chicago bigs will wear your team down if you can’t compete on the boards.
::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
4:32 pm
DMB, all that LaLa land chaos has to raise an eyebrow…wow, never get involved in a rumor with a teammates’ significant other! Nothin ever turns out good for either.
Can you imagine the stuff had that been in the A-T-L? DMB would be our onsite roving blogger! Good work DMB.
On the Thrashers, I am not hearing exclusive negotiating is ongoing. The ASG doesn’t want to freeze out any buyers..you know like the time they snuck in and stole the Hawks/Thrashers/Philips from under David McDavid. Easy to see why we no longer have Bernie Mullins around. He was a great rep for the ASG and he could no longer deal with the non-sense. The longer this goes, the cheaper the deal gets for whoever decides to buy our hockey team. Guess who is the only loser here is?
One more DMB, perhaps you know this….on the Al contract signing….Did he start complaining about playing center before or after his multi-year 60M contract? Hmmmm….
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
4:36 pm
Let’s see here, the Hawks should see how we can acquire Bogut? So you’re saying that you want both players chosen prior to CP3 and Deron Williams? I gotta say, that might not be the best idea for this fan base to absorb. Bogut has big numbers as well, and aren’t the Bucks still waiting for him to lead them to a playoff series victory.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
4:42 pm
@MC
the Chicago Way is right. It requires having a steady stream of big men to rebound, crash glass and reqard your team with extra possessions.
If the Heat have 2 superstars and an All-Star power forward and are still one piece away because Chicago had over 17 offensive rebounds, what hope does Atlanta have with Smith and Horford at PF and C. The Answer: none.
:::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
Tough changes need to be made. And telling Smith to lose the weight and play SF/PF leaves us with an out. His value is still there and we can package him in a trade for a SF.
Teague becomes the set-up man and runs the elbow pick and roll with a lighter more athletic Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EHiqFtrLY
Joe takes a high volume of shots off the ball and punishes double teams. Bogut crashes. Sanders bulks up and crashes. Hopefully develops a reliable jump shot with more solid body. Has good form.
Gooden is an older version of Gibson. He should not be starting though his defense gets worse as the game goes on. Offensive player and a bit more physical than he looks. Played for the Bulls at one time.
Hawks need to quit the charades they need to become a defensive team to win. and the only way to do that is to acquire elite defensive length/players.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
4:50 pm
1. northcyde – agreed, r e, potential
2. ILL-Logical & KCG – Co-Sign on Joe
3. KevinM – I don’t think we are dis-agreeing;
we are discussing semantics. I wish for Josh to play the hi/post.
He can guard [2's] through some [5's]. (four positions)
Calling he or Al a short-stop and a punter is okay by me,
whether or not they are in combo with two guards & a post
—or—
three guards, it makes no difference what you name them.
4. Mary Ellen – Shannon Brown…hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
5. ag – Kind of a collective assumption.
Kindly forgive me sir, if you will.
I don’t care where Al plays as long as it’s in Atlanta,
—but—
I very much want one or two Bigs;
who can defend the rim and more importantly rebound.
Neither do I care if they start [..r e, Asik..].
_____________________________________________________
rumor has it that due to what drmaryb reported;
[..it is a rumor until it becomes a fact..]
(then is it really a fact) ?
just because espn reports it @ some point?
my sources are saying “the incident”
was a major disruption,
* that P.G. wants out of LA.
Now;
Joe for Pau,
straight up before July.
After July business will shut down.
Trades *can be made prior.
Do not have to wait on new CBA.
voice of reason
May 16th, 2011
4:52 pm
how about trading jj, smoove and marvin for d12? magic know he’s not coming back, and even if we only get him for one year we still unload jjs and marvins contracts.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
4:59 pm
Magic Johnson
You’re wanting more blue collar players
so you give up Al and Kirk for filler ?
I think your motives are good but your talent evaluation
maybe, just maybe, needs to be re-thought.
Sanders is a nice young piece.
Bogut is a terrific Big,
right swap, right players & I’m behind you.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:00 pm
@KevinM
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
::::
last year the Bucks took us to 7 games without Bogut.
Chris Webber said it best on NBATV this is not the Hawks’ players fault its managements fault.
Horford is an offensive center, Williams is a spot up shooter who had his best games at the 2, Hinrich is good but Teague has more ability and the management would be professional like Chicago they would tell Teague get in the gym and would even help him find a trainer and show faith in him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tdwMyzvQss
Bogut is arguably the best 1 on 1 defensive center a bigger screen setter and led the league in blocks. The fan base will not absorb Marvin Williams at sf/pf/center any longer.
The truth will come out how much Atlanta wants to win. It starts with defense and rebounding.
:::::::::::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
::::::::
If you have any better trade proposals, I’m all ears. Otherwise it makes no sense to retain such a small frontcourt.
This is not Horford vs Smith vs JJ. Nor is it Marvin Williams vs Deron Williams vs Chris Paul.
Atlanta Hawks reality is the Atlanta Hawks reality.
The emotional stuff needs to go.
They can make a move or they can stand pat and count the money they made from the last two playoff blowouts.
Eventually the organization has to decide whether they want to stop being a small space the floor team or do they want to commit to getting size like Boston, Chicago and Orlando?
and Dallas and Memphis etc.
::
edit: Hamed Haddaddi from Memphis would be a great hustle big we could look into. The Chicago Way. Let your guards shoot everyone else crash the board
edit: if Smith loses weight and displays his old block a shot run and dunk self and regains lift on his jump shot. His trade value rises and we might be able to trade him off for a Granger or Rudy Gay.
However, I feel Smith is a blue collar guy like Horford, only he has/had the athletic ability to display it and make a difference without the ball in his hands.
davisarei
May 16th, 2011
5:11 pm
http://davisarei.blogspot.com/2011/05/hope-for-new-look-hawks.html
O'Brien
May 16th, 2011
5:13 pm
KevinM,
One good thing about Bogut is he knows he is a center, and does not ask to play PF.
MC points out that we have what, 3M for the last 6 slots. I find that totally humorous. NO ONE saw this coming after last summer’s big signing?.
The ASG put all their eggs in JJ’s baskets, hoping that with a new coach, he would be able to leqad them further in the playoffs. What’s ironic, is that although JJ got a raise, his new boss said he wants him to do less work.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
5:35 pm
Diaper Al ?
Someone please enlighten me to the quote or quotes,
where he “whines”…..I seem to have missed it / them.
You know this kid had a bad 2011 play-offs and folks
around here act as if he has been turrible [Marv] or
inconsistent [Josh] or passive [Joe]…the whole time
he’s been a Hawk.
Sautee argued at length about actual quotes
where he actually “complained” about his position.
It’s odd how highly valued he is around the league
*[..Yes - dad-gummit - that's a fact..]
yet around here he has become a villain of sorts.
Lot’s of times folks don’t realize what you’ve got,
until you don’t have it anymore ! (or somethin’ like that)
Grandad, proud supporter of Al Horford !
Also:
Pres. Obama, Ron Paul, Robert Duvall, Three Dog Night,
Conway Twitty, Johnny U, Hines Ward, Shane Battier,
Scarlett Johansson, Jon Stewart, Dennis Rodman,
Ben Howland, Max Lucado, Ashley Judd, Dale Murphy,
Renée Zellweger, T. Boone Pickens, & D. L. Hughley.
*among others
The Game Has Changed
May 16th, 2011
5:39 pm
@Magic Johnson- Why would we give up players who make it to the playoffs every year for players who will never return to the playoffs. Keep dreaming. Bogut has been hurt for the past two years. If we made that trade the Hawks would be watching the Bucks in the second round next year
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:45 pm
People need to stop playing the blame game. Either propose a constructive roster and say why it will work or stop it.
Some people will blame Al, some will blame Josh, JJ, some will blame Hinrich’s hamstring some will blame the coach etc.
But tangible real evidence is that the team gets outrebounded and dunked on and worn down and shoots to many jump shots with no inside game.
One problem the Miami Heat do this better than us and even they are one good player away.
:::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
:::
no emotions just a cold hard swap. The Hawks put all their eggs in JJs basket now if you believe Horford is going to come back at 260 sacrificing what athleticism he has and that Marvin covers the 20 ppg gap that we always get blown out by then keep dreaming. Its not going to happen.
Williams and JJ are 2 bad contracts. Smith has the most value even after we acquire 2 bigs. Al Horford is David Lee on his best days. Hawks need to cut their losses or face a dwindling fan base.
Team morale will decline if no changes are made. Hinrich starts, Teague’s excitement goes to the bench. Fans leave. Teammates yell at each other. Smith is traded for Chris Kaman. Playoffs occur. Horford takes 20 shots. Marvin disappears. not enough. First round exit.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:46 pm
Rinse and repeat.
or
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
4 years as a .500 team should tell u changes need to be made to take the next step.
tidog
May 16th, 2011
5:49 pm
I’d like to Magic Johnson step up to the plate with a group of investors and buy the Hawks. Think about it for a minute.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
6:04 pm
Grandad, understood going forward…I just want Josh inside whether they post him as a 1 or a 5. Get him off the 3 pt island. He has the ball in his hands with the shot clock winding down all too much. And on JJ/Pau, is there really a LA need to go get Joe? I’m not sure how he fits with Artest/Kobe/Odom getting big minutes….I don’t see him getting ATL type minutes out there unless LA were to dump Artest. But I like the big-blockbuster scenario. I take Gasol or Bynum in a heartbeat for any member on this team.
Magic, again, we can see how good Bogut is as a player last year? He averaged 12/11 on a mediocre team who had high expectations and many of us here were raving about their moves. Well, those moves failed miserably. While Bogut got blocked shots, he was anemic on the other end……44% from the FT line? Looking at the defensive side, Bogut had an excellent defensive line. I gotta ask though why Al got 3X more votes for 1st team all defense and Bogut only got 1 vote. Is there bias there? Probably, because of how Milwaukee did, and the small market he plays in.
I will agree, his salary is doable provided we move a captain and someone else. I am not looking to find a better option than what you presented; I am just stating how difficult it could be to have he and Marvin on the same team from the ‘05 draft. There may be a lot of fans here who think Bogut is a better player than Al would be for us. At this point with this roster, I am ready for numerous shakeups, but I am more interested in getting management going the right direction and not making moves in management based on salary limitations.
OB, can’t improve on those comments. I didn’t want Joe taking up that much cap space in the first place. Very few deserve that honor.
I see where Stern is looking to bring in a $45M soft cap, probably to grandfather-in (no offense Grandad)! the current salaries of so many over-paid players. He also wanted to take away long term contract deals.
I envision a very sterile negotiation period for the league. This could be a long one.
2 more side notes around the league: Wizards will take Enes Kanter if they end up with the #1 pick. I say excellent move! He has a big upside heading into this year.
And did anyone notice that the Celtics own the LA Clippers 2012 1st rounder? That is an almost guaranteed slot in the lottery!
With Doc signing a long-term deal and no chance if there ever was one to get him back to the ATL, he could very well end up coaching his son Austin if the Clippers continue their bungling ways. Does that give anyone a thought that Ainge may try to move Rondo about that same time? Hmmmm……
The Game Has Changed
May 16th, 2011
6:07 pm
@Terrell-Do you actually think Za Za or Collins could have won the second round last year against Orlando. LOL Ha Ha Ha. Man you are so funny. Drew did well this year. The Bulls are doing to the Heat what they did to us. Lebron and Wade are going to do the same thing Joe and Jamal did. Struggle and maybe win 2 games. If they win 2
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
6:11 pm
With the limitations to the salary cap going forward, we really need to regress and develop our own top draft picks. The ones we have currently are not leading us to the ECF. We were 10 games short this year.
I am not a basher of Al by any means; it may be that he can’t be traded anyway at this time. But with a little bit more than a month to go and with 1 2nd round draft pick at 48, can we really expect our GM in question and without a known future (maybe he knows?) to make a big move in such a short time? After all, he isn’t really known as ‘Quick Rick’ Sund.
The Game Has Changed
May 16th, 2011
6:11 pm
I dont see anything wrong with Teague,Joe, Josh, Al and using Crawford money and going after Ne Ne, Lopez, Oden, or Chandler. Why get rid of the core. They are in the top 10 in all their positions. Maybe not Teague. But he will be.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
6:15 pm
The Game Has Changed
Why do you say Bogut has been hurt for the last “two” yrs?
Wasn’t it just last yr that he took that fall and crushed his elbow?
(just before the play-offs) 2010
This year: 2010/11
65 games, 35 min per, efficiency rating 19+, 13 pts, 11 rebs, 2.5 blks.
def POY nominee,
took the last several games off
to have elbow cleaned out afteer Bucks had been eliminated from play-offs.
Injury = one thing = missed 2010 play-offs.
hurt for two years ?
productive 2010/11 season.
I do not understand?
Hurt for two yrs?
Pretty tough kid if you ask me.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
6:33 pm
KevinM
none taken – grandfather
LAL is talkin’ about shaking things up.
New coach
So long to the triangle
Kobe running on fumes
Artest lost his quickness
Bynum will stay (so I’m hearing) youth
Kobe needs a sidekick that can reduce minutes & pressure
Money not an issue out there
Think about it…..who do they have?
their old
D.Fisher old
Blake, Walton, et al = role players
Hey they may even want Marvin,
I read where they are looking for a wing defender.
ag
May 16th, 2011
6:53 pm
In the history of the league, I cannot remember once have the Hawks and Lakers made a deal.
O'Brien
May 16th, 2011
7:46 pm
The game has changed,
The Hawks are over the cap. So even if we let Jamal walk, all we have to go after free agents are the Mid-level Exception (~$5.5 mil), the bi-annual exception (~$2.8 mil), in addition to vet minimum salaries.
And NeNe will command a $10 mil salary. He is probably the second best available Center on the market after Chandler.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 16th, 2011
7:51 pm
I don’t know or care about hockey, but I feel bad for Thrashers fans. They are getting f-cked by the DASG even worse than we are.
jason
May 16th, 2011
7:56 pm
Deandre Jordan….. Center.
Trade Al Horford for Pau Gasol……. Power Foward….
Trade Marvin for picks…..
Trade Josh for Rudy Gay….
Get a Defensive minded coach…..
Sign Wilson Chandler as a back up Small Foward…
This is what I think the Hawks should do this offseason if they want to improve.
Slimjr
May 16th, 2011
7:59 pm
Sund helped ruin the Sonics with an assist from a unscrupulous owner.
What did you expect Sund to do with a GROUP of unscrupulous owners who think they know basketball? Why did the DASG continue to leave Billy Knightmare in place for so long? It wasn’t his ability to scout and draft well. Do you really think the DASG hired Sund because he showed himself to be a superb GM?
See the whole truth, rolled out a little at a time:”
Sund has been a mediocre GM for 31 lousy years.. Why does this scrub not just retire already????
Larry is a worse than Woody! We know his team played .500 ball all year except for the first 6 games of the season….This team bailed on him months earlier to get 44 wins.. This team should have had at least 56 to 59 wins…He was the wrong hire from day one…….
Lionel Hollins successfully defeats the Bulls with this Hawks team.
He took OKC to 7 games without his best player on the floor in Rudy Gay!!! Are you kidding me?
FYI: OKC has swept the Hawks 3 straight years….. Now Hollins is a real deal…Larry is not. Shop ALLSTAR- Al= Fake Power Forward asap…
JeJe
May 16th, 2011
8:49 pm
JeJe’s Atlanta Hawk Awards for 2011-2010:
*Worst Player on the Roster: MARVIN WILLIAMS
*Softest player on the team: MARVIN WILLIAMS
—–HONORABLE MENTION: AL HORFORD
*All Star this year least likely to make All Star team next year: AL HORFORD
*Only non-soft player on the team: ZaZa Pachulia
*Team MVP: M-V-TEAGUE
Rusty
May 16th, 2011
9:18 pm
Get rid of that damn Larry Drew.
maavelous
May 16th, 2011
9:47 pm
Keep Marv the maaavelous and get rid of posters that are too slow to figure out the Caps Lock key.
Nat
May 16th, 2011
10:30 pm
How about this trade:
Grizzlies get:
G Kirk Hinrich
SF Marvin Williams
Hawks get:
SF Rudy Gay
SG Tony Allen
PF Darell Arthur
G Greivis Vasquez
PTC
May 16th, 2011
10:42 pm
Orlando was not the same team as last year LD you did not do anything that great. You did not get passed the second round, that’s what counts
James on Pharr Rd
May 16th, 2011
11:21 pm
Rick Sund wrote his own Wikipedia bio.
If Deng is as good as the national media is making him seem, then JJ may not be so bad. And certainly Josh is the “business.”
I
Felix
May 16th, 2011
11:25 pm
My Thoughts:
From a basketball standpoint only.
1. Keep the folowing players:
a. Teague. Incredible poise, team response, speed, defense.
b. JJ. Good all-around ballplayer.
c. Horford. Great Role player –nothing more.
d. Zaza. Hell of a rebounder.
On Smoove…He just doesn’t fit. Sorry, but highlight plays don’t impress me. I played. Knew guys like him. They were worthless and a dime a dozen.
Now for the CBA/Labor negotiations:
The owners made their fortunes in legitimate business. Not playing silly schoolyard games. The should make most of the money if the public is gullable to watching this schoolyard game.
CUT ALL PLAYERS SALARIES by a FACTOR OF 90 % AND THEY’D ALL STILL BE LINED – UP TO TAKE IT — and fighting each other to do so. ! Sharing significant money with these desperado players is ludicrous — from a common sense standpoint! But common sense has long since deserted the mindset of this (and most other US influenced) nations.
We could all be watching the same players and teams while paying $5 -$7 per ticket. I don’t know about most of you but this would be my preference. It doesn’t do ME one damn bit of good for an NBA player to make more money than I do. They are entertainers. They don’t actually contribute in any legitimate way to anyone’s lives. At least the owners have likely provided some product or service that has contributed to legitimately helping people.
Let these kids play their game for us — at the US median income. They’ll all still be right there playing. And let real men and women actually WORK and contribute something significant to society. And not be fleeced out their earnings by these useless kids that provide nothing more than a bit of entertainment after a hard day’s work.
Melvin
May 16th, 2011
11:49 pm
Out of the top 16 highest team payrolls, only the Mavs (#2) are still in the playoffs…
Grandad
May 17th, 2011
12:06 am
Felix
Have you ever been to the movies or watched TV,
listened to some music perhaps ?
What about CEO’s, corporations claim they must pay
or they will take their talent elsewhere ?
[..South Beach, maybe..] ?
Oil prices ?
Why does gas go up the next day after oil prices go up ?
Yet;
when oil prices go down, why doesn’t gas go down the next day?
Now about basketball;
some of your suppositions Hawk related,
I refute your assertion about Al being nothing more than a role player.
I appreciate your prevaricative allegory leading to your cavil about Josh,
however, I must both agree and disagree at the same time
while arresting at a point of general disagreement.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
12:07 am
The Velvet Room!
Magic City!
____________
KevinM … What’s baby? You know I’ve been snooping around looking for some juicy tid-bits and trying to get these teams SOLD!
“One more DMB, perhaps you know this….on the Al contract signing….Did he start complaining about playing center before or after his multi-year 60M contract? Hmmmm….”
____________
Well KeBo! I’ll take this query hands down: I was listening to
790 The Zone back in the Summer. Al Horford held a Summer Camp @ Oglethorpe-sp University here in Buckhead, after he returned from:
Basketball Beyond Borders in China.
Al Horford was queried about his contract and he basically said, “It would be nice to get that done and out of the way, if not, then he would just focus on getting better and helping his team win.”
Al went on to say, “I am a natural PF, but he enjoys playing @ Center as well.” Al was looking forward to the UFA frenzy and was eager to see who we would get to battle with him and Josh in the paint. Al lamented, to contend, we need some more size in the box.”
KevinM, this all occurred before the FA started and we had not hired Coach Drew at this point. If I’m not mistaken, this was the first public comment I ever heard Al say he preferred to play the 4 definitively.
This was the start of the whole story coming from Horford himself.
The blog had been saying this since day one for most posters.
So, to answer your question: it was definitely before the 60M.
It was after Al signed the contract, that he started doing the “Running Man” away from the paint on offense.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
12:13 am
Word on The Street!
KevinM
Allegedly, Kobe told is wife (because he is a dirty rat) and V
anessa Layne Bryant allegedly, told Pau Gasol. Imagine that?
Mrs. Purple Diamond, allegedly spilling the “Bean(s)” – pun intended.
LOL! One hoe telling on another one. Hey didn’t Kobe also throw Shaq under the bus in CO. when, he was at the police station?
Mmmmmm …. Hmmmmm! Allegedly KevinM Allegedly.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 17th, 2011
12:16 am
“The owners made their fortunes in legitimate business. ”
Haha. Good one.
Different league, but same story. Enjoy. And after you read that, look up “supply and demand” on Wikipedia.
Ken Strickland
May 17th, 2011
12:18 am
With the emergence of PG JTeague, and if management believes the JSmith we saw the last 2gms against the Bulls, will carry over to next season, we can expect very few personnell changes for the Hawks. I see KHinrich starting at SG, JJ at SF, JTeague at PG, AHorford at C, and JSmith at PF. To those of you who want to see wholesale changes, or the trading of certain players you have issues with, you won’t see this as much of an upgrade.
I see a back court rotation of KHinrich, JTeague, Pape Sy and DWilkins being as solid as a rock defensively. With a rock solid perimeter DEF, there will be far less pressure on our frontline players, which would allow them to maintain better rebounding position. JJ and Marvin at SF would make a solid OFF/DEF combination on the wing.
I’d really like to see LDrew design a set OFF for MWilliams, much like the Bulls have done to get KKorver open shots.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
12:22 am
FOR SALE!
“I don’t know or care about hockey, but I feel bad for Thrashers fans. They are getting f-cked by the DASG even worse than we are.”
_____________
Me either, only as it relates to The Hawks going forward money – wise.
Or, if it helps The Hawks get sold too.
Grandad
May 17th, 2011
1:17 am
“I am a natural PF” / -drmaryb- from 790 the Zone
Hardly an indictment. = Does not use the word prefer.
”Al was looking forward to the UFA frenzy
and was eager to see who we would get
to battle with he and Josh in the paint” / -drmaryb-
I’m not sure I would call this a lament;
perhaps envision might be better suited?
Regardless, I’ve said the same thing countless times
on this here blog.
With all due respect Mary Ellen.
Nate ArchiBALL
May 17th, 2011
1:36 am
@ag – “In the history of the league, I cannot remember once have the Hawks and Lakers made a deal.”
September 30, 1977: Lou Hudson traded by the Atlanta Hawks to the Los Angeles Lakers for Ollie Johnson
The Bowse is your source for Basketball News, Rumors, Hype and so much more. Read The Bowse for an inside perspective into the NBA
May 17th, 2011
7:05 am
[...] lose the game but Jeff Teague may have lost time as he will go for an MRI on his injured wrist. According to Michael Cunningham of AJC.com, Teague took a hard fall while going up for a layup and will need to investigate further to see if [...]
O'Brien
May 17th, 2011
7:54 am
Ken S,
I’d really like to see LDrew design a set OFF for MWilliams, much like the Bulls have done to get KKorver open shots..
Two problems with that.
1) Marvin Williams is not a good 3-pt shooter. He has made 157 total 3-ptrs in 6 seasons (~26 makes per season on average), while shooting 31%
2) Marvin is very inconsistent when it comes to knocking down the open shot.
I am ok with your starting lineup of Teague/Hinrich/JJ/Josh/Al. But the ASG would have to spend $ to upgrade our bench, because Marvin and ZaZa is not enough.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
7:58 am
Teach Me How to Dougie!
Rapper M-Bone was killed last night in California. Allegedly, in a shooting? Details are unclear. (RIP)
___________________
This is an awful waste of life and talent. Please stop the violence.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
8:07 am
I’ll Be Back!
Arnold Schwarzenegger shocking confession. Allegedly, 10 years ago he fathered a child with a household staff member who was employed for 4ome 20 years. Arnold, just recently told his wife about this infidelity a few weeks ago.
So, that’s why she left. Hmmmmm! What a tool. Maria Shriver, you’re a Kennedy! You can do better.
_____________________
In other news, Chris Brown and Rhianna are tweeting again?
Danger! Watch yourself, Rhianna.
___________________
In other basketball news: This new CBA is gonna’ be a helluva fight.
___________________
-drmaryb- The Entertainment Reporter
darb
May 17th, 2011
8:17 am
Now I see this pityful excuse of an owner group is probably discussing in secret to sell the Thrashers, and watch another hockey team leave Atlanta. Under this group, you cannot convince me that they are dedicated to fielding any winning organization be it basketball or hockey team, but instead wanted to live the dream of being a professional sports team owner, and the city and it’s fans are paying the price.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 17th, 2011
8:35 am
Korver for all his other shortcomings is one of the best shooters in the league. Realistically is Marvin even above average at any single aspect of the game?
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
8:48 am
A Slurr?
Rick Weltz, an Executive of the Phoenix Suns front office has come out of the closet and professes, “I’m Gay!”
Chris Bosh
Aaron Brooks
Baron Davis
Keep your collective heads down, shoulder on the wheel and keep grinding. We don’t need a reveal, people will never comprehend.
Just play ball. ShhHhhhhh! We from the hood … We don’t do that!
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
8:59 am
darb!
What the ASKG are doing to The Thrashers and the ATL fans of hockey?
It’s disgusting on every level.
What a black mark the 8 feces throwing orangutans, are leaving upon At lanta? A really bad stain.
vava74
May 17th, 2011
9:00 am
Najeh,
He falls with an impeccable lack of grace
Now, seriously, he is an above average and disciplined defender, which does not mean that he is not burned to a crisp by some particular players with whom he matches up badly like Deng.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
9:18 am
A Slurr!
Oh Yeah! And, add to the list:
Marquis Daniels
Allegedly.
Sautee
May 17th, 2011
9:53 am
Grandad,
Thank you for pointing out that in the article Mary Ellen quoted, Al NEVER said the word “prefer”. It’s amazing to me that people will read whatever they want to read into words that were never spoken, so that they can justify their fantasy about a situation.
Does Al think of himself as a “natural 4″? Yes, he said so. Does that mean he hates playing center and is whining about it? Gimme a freakin’ break.
Does anyone on this blog seriously think that Al doesn’t realize that he was named All-NBA at the center position?
Thanks for keeping it real.
O'Brien
May 17th, 2011
9:54 am
Najeh,
And that’s one of the big issues for the Hawks. We dont have any shooters (JJ and Jamal are not shooters). Bulls have Korver and Bogans who knock down 3’s.
And I think to execute LD’s offense better, we need better shooters. Last offseason, one of the guys I liked was Anthony Morrow, but ASG and Rick always seem to be late when it comes to getting players.
I hope our draft pick that is stashed overseas (Sergie Gladyr – sp?) will develop into that shooter for us.
Ken Strickland
May 17th, 2011
10:20 am
The 3 biggest problems that seems to be holding the Hawks back are ATTITUDE and the underutilization of available talent. Both of these issues can be corrected by the HC. There is far too often an attitude of indifference among certain players. When they encounter pressure, or things don’t go their way, they become disruptive and selfish.
That’s when the ISO’s and illadvised jumpers take over, and more productive players get shutout. LDrew can resolve this issue be taking a stronger approach toward dealing with this issue. After issuing a strong warning when it happens, all he has to do is immediately bench the culprit if it happens again. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I’ll guarantee you it will become less and less of a problem as the season progresses, and it will go a long ways toward changing the attitudes of certain players. Also, there’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to end up in the 2nd rd of the playoffs, after a serious injury to a starter, to find out what a young talented PG is capable of doing.
Based on what I’ve seen from Pape Sy so far, LDrew certainly can’t rehash the same lame excuses he used to limit JTeague, like him being too apprehensive or not aggressive enough. After 6yrs of MWoodson and 1yr of LDrew, I’m tired of the lame excuses and bias’, and would like to see an honest effort and committment to develop at least one of our young guards.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
10:57 am
Gand-Daddy & Sautee!
I agree with you guys re: Al Horford’s comments were very candid and not controversial at all. I was actually surprised at the way the blog ran with those really band comments and made a big deal about it.
I rarely engage myself in the far right or far right conversations.
As a balancer and a Libra, I can usually be found in the middle of most viewpoints. I just know that was the frist time I had ever heard Al’s comments, but the blog has been saying he is a better PF since draft day.
I guess Al reads the blog too. The bigger indictment of Mr. Horford has been his reluctance to dominate inside the paint offensively this season,
(for whatever reason, that has been the case).
The farther Al soars away from the basket, the smaller he appears.
_________________
Now, that’s keeping it real.
vava74
May 17th, 2011
10:58 am
I see that I keep on getting flak from Ray about the Noah-Diaper Al discussion we had last year.
Well, I stupidly ignored the red flags and thought they were media fabrications.
They aren’t and I am now 100% convinced that Al is structurally soft and that his first 3 years in the NBA are the product of good company (HC Donovan and Noah) pushing him to be someone he is not intimately (his softness is probably not irreversible but it may need a lot of work from the coaches).
This “theory” is the same that allows me to think – extrapolating – that Josh could still be coached into something really remarkable. But again, there is a lot of work and discipline involved in this and that is something that LD does not bring to the table.
These guys would be a top team with a top coach, however, that’s a rare commodity and apparently we missed out on the right guys Thibs and Monty.
What we need is someone who knows his X’s and O’s but trusts quality assistants to give a real hand at directing the team towards success and at the same time a guy who knows how to discipline and motivate players (a mix between a father figure and a mentor) into doing what it best for the team’s success (ultimately to their own success as well).
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
11:08 am
True Words!
“I’m not sure I would call this a lament;
perhaps envision might be better suited?”
- grand – dad -
_______________
You picked up the wrong quote there. Al lamented, “We need more size in the post to be any type of contender.”
Contender, is the lament here and the key word of the entire interview.
From hearing the interview, I took very little from it to say he was complaining. I think he was just stating the obvious, that he has always played PF and apparently won B2B Championship Titles from that position. However, he did say he enjoys playing Center.
I think after the Magic series, it was obvious to the whole world that we were too small inside to beat the elite teams! Where was Collins then?
Oh Well, the Magic was loaded for bear at every position, we were not built to beat THAT team – period!
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
11:14 am
* I rarely engage myself in far right ot far left sided conversations …
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
11:32 am
I really don’t care what # Al plays, as long as he plays dominant inside.
nbafan
May 17th, 2011
11:34 am
What BS.
I remember this exact same article and discussions (among media) on how the Hawks should follow the blueprint… blah, blah, blah.
This team has been the same for 35+ years= mediocre minus 1 year or two (bad and good).
Mark it down. This Hawks team will be horrible again before it get’s any better.
How about an article about how a Bulls team can go from bad to great to bad to great… winning titles and then getting a top pick in the draft because they were bad… several times before an Atlanta Hawks Team can even get to a NBA Finals?
How about start holding the team accountable for their mediocre results year after year after year…?
Slimjr
May 17th, 2011
11:43 am
The biggest problem the Hawks have is Sund hired the wrong guy to coach his team!!!
Slimjr
May 17th, 2011
11:47 am
Allstar-AL=Fake Power Forward could not defend his shadow…………………. sigh……………..
WaltFrazier
May 17th, 2011
11:54 am
As I said before, the Hawks BLEW their chance to acquire DWIGHT HOWARD. That deal would have worked had the Hawks held on to Jordan Crawford. Then the Hawks could have packaged the Crawford Brothers (Jordan and Jamal) to the Magic in return for Dwight Howard. The Magic would have made that deal because Jordan Crawford has been scoring 29 points a game since he was traded to the Wizzards. Jamal averaged 24 points a game in the Orlando series. Jamal would be a superstar if he was a regular starter. I’m sure the Magic would have taken 55 points a night of scoring from Jamal and Jordan in return for Howard. Anybody in the league would have made that trade but there is only one Dwight Howard so only 1 team could have made that trade. Now we couldnt get Dwight because we would have to give up Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford for Dwight Howard and we would lose our two most prolific scorers. OK. maybe superman isnt the solution but Dwight would certainly look good in an Atlanta Hawks uniform particularly since he is a native Atlantan.
Dept. of Unintended Irony
May 17th, 2011
12:08 pm
WaltFrazier
May 17th, 2011
11:54 am
“…Jordan Crawford has been scoring 29 points a game since he was traded to the Wizzards. Jamal averaged 24 points a game in the Orlando series. Jamal would be a superstar if he was a regular starter. I’m sure the Magic would have taken 55 points a night of scoring from Jamal and Jordan in return for Howard.”
Who knew that applying “Just For Men” hair coloring would affect brain cells?
Grandad
May 17th, 2011
12:19 pm
WaltFrazier
Can you hear colors and see sound in your world ?
freezermeat
May 17th, 2011
12:27 pm
dep of ui irons
you andy grandpa goin get yours ass beat one day
Geemack
May 17th, 2011
12:42 pm
Good to see Ken Strickland back on the blog. I pray everything is good with you buddy.
Geemack
May 17th, 2011
1:03 pm
D. Jordan from Clipper would be a good pick up at Center for the Hawks. Also the Hawks could get Chris Kaman, but they would probably have to part ways with K. Hinrich.
Josh needs to be moved to SF and AL moved to center if we could D. Jordan or K. Kaman.
O'Brien
May 17th, 2011
1:19 pm
Draft Lottery is tonight. I wonder if there will be any surprises.
And with the 23rd pick in the 2011 NBA draft, the Atlanta Hawks select…Oh, Wait. We dont have a first round pick this year. And we dont have a first round pick from last year either. Thanks Rick.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
1:36 pm
O’Brien
We don’t need any more draft picks, we’re the Hawks – remember?
We need some veterans and defenders. I like:
Ben Wallace
Tayshaun Prince
Rip Hamilton
Chris Kaman
Deandre Jordan
Carl Landry
Shane Battier
Anybody who can play some defense and rebound.
LouBerdette
May 17th, 2011
1:43 pm
KEEP JOSH SMITH, JOE JOHNSON, JAMAL CRAWFORD, JEFF TEAGUE AND AL HORFORD. THAT SHOULD BE YOUR STARTING FIVE. PROMOTE JAMAL TO STARTER BECAUSE HE HAS EARNED IT. MAYBE JAMAL WILL TRY HARDER IF HE IS A FULL-FLEDGE STARTER. GIVE MARVIN WILLIAMS HIS UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE. WE DONT NEED HIM AND HE HASNT CONTRIBUTED MUCH TOWARDS THE SUCCESS OF THE HAWKS. MARVIN PUT A FEW GOOSE EGGS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND WE CANT PAY SOMEONE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SCORE NOTHING AND NOT TRY AT ALL. THAT JUST DOESNT MAKE GOOD BUSINESS SENSE. IF MARVIN WORKS AND BECOMES A GREAT PLAYER IN TRAINING CLUB THEN MAKE HIM EARN A SPOT ON THE ROSTER. DONT JUST GIVE HIM A STARTING JOB BECAUSE MIKE WOODSEN USED TO START HIM. THAT WAS A MISTAKE THAT WAS PASSED DOWN FROM PREVIOUS COACHES WHO WERE CLUELESS. THE HAWKS ARE VERY CLOSE TO BEING A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP CLASS TEAM. THEY ARE ABOUT ONE PLAYER AWAY FROM GREATNESS.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 17th, 2011
2:18 pm
“Draft Lottery is tonight. I wonder if there will be any surprises.”
There is exactly one potential superstar in this weak ass draft in my opinion, and that’s Derrick Williams. I would seriously consider offering Joe to whoever gets the #1 pick.
DinasaurFenton
May 17th, 2011
2:38 pm
Jerry Sloan should be hired to replace Drew as head coach. Drew should get fired as head coach, BUT SHOULD BE RETAINED ON THE HAWKS COACHING STAFF TO SERVE AS THE ASSISTANT COACH TO NEW HEAD COACH JERRY SLOAN. THIS PLAN WILL MOVE THE HAWKS FORWARD AND GIVE THEM A COMPETENT TEACHER (SLOAN) TO HELP THE NEW GUYS ALONG. SLOAN IS THE BEST TALENT AVAILABLE OTHER THAN RICK ADELMAN, WHO IS EXPECTED TO BE HIRED AS THE NEW LAKERS HEAD COACH.
Geemack
May 17th, 2011
2:56 pm
Najeh Davenpoop
There is exactly one potential superstar in this weak ass draft in my opinion, and that’s Derrick Williams. I would seriously consider offering Joe to whoever gets the #1 pick.
And you would seriously, be in the lottery the next 2 years.
hawksfancents95
May 17th, 2011
3:17 pm
ya najeh*
i like derick williams too but we dont need to draft another williams in the top 10 ever again in hawks future, also we dont need another 6′9 pf tweener
i am goin to relentlessly encourage a trade between atl and gs. al horford for monta ellis makes sense for both sides. gs could start d.lee and al at pf and c and that would be great for their uptempo offense with biendrins off the bench. likewise with us not resigning jamal we need scoring, a teague ellis backcourt would be the fastest backcourt in the NBA move joe to 3 josh stays 4 and all we need is that 7 foot center everyone is beggin for(especially me). monta and joe can get us 50 a night easy and monta will play more d for a contender
O'Brien
May 17th, 2011
3:19 pm
drmaryb,
If the Hawks stay out of luxury tax, they will have $3 mil to fill 6 slots. We might not be able to afford those guys. Look for vet minimum salaries, and trades.
And as deep as the Bulls are already, they have the #28 and #30 pick in the first round.
Najeh,
Are you not sold on Kyrie Irving?
Melvin
May 17th, 2011
3:48 pm
5 Steps: Fixing the Hawks
Despite earning their fourth consecutive postseason berth and recording their deepest playoff run since 1994 the Atlanta Hawks enter the off season facing more questions than ever about the future the direction of the organization. On a national level the Hawks were viewed to have little to no chance of upsetting the number one seeded Chicago Bulls in the second round of this year’s playoffs; however Atlanta fans have been extremely vocal of their disappointment with the six game elimination which in turn may force the Hawks’ front office to initiate some major changes in the locker room. As the salary cap stands today with over $63 million committed on the books for 2012, the Hawks don’t have much flexibility in terms of bringing in a top tier talent without paying the luxury tax – a place where their ownership structure has routinely avoided. Keeping things in total perspective the Hawks’ roster features two established All-Stars, another with All-Star talent, a former sixth man of the year and an emerging young point guard.
There are definitely a plethora of teams around the league in a worst predicament than the Hawks heading into 2012, but nonetheless Atlanta still has work to do in order to keep themselves relevant in the suddenly ultra-competitive Eastern Conference power structure.
1. Free Joe Johnson
Five-time All-Star shooting guard Joe Johnson signed the most lucrative deal during the 2010 free agency period which featured players such as Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce and Chris Bosh. The Hawks ultimately believe Johnson is the player who can push the club past the second round of the postseason for the first time in over forty years.
But the time is ticking. Johnson will be 30 next month and is approaching the age where high volume scoring guards typically decline rapidly (see Tracy McGrady and Michael Redd).
Simply put, the Hawks must simply ride his talents more than ever if their postseason luck is going to change in the near future while he’s still in his prime.
Johnson averaged 18.2 points per game this season which was his lowest output since the 2005 campaign. No question it was a disappointing season for the former University of Arkansas standout, but the blame cannot be placed entirely on the veteran.
When head coach Larry Drew took over for the dismissed Mike Woodson last year, there was a growing frustration amongst those following the team that the squad employed too much of a “Isolation Joe” strategy on offense – where the squad would clear out one side of the court and allow Johnson to break his opponent down off the dribble one-on-one.
So Drew promised to abandon a lot of this philosophy by implementing a motion offense focused on ball movement and balanced scoring which took the ball out of Johnson’s hands considerably.
Drew also routinely stated he wished to reduce the wear and tear on Johnson having to carry the team on a nightly basis, which in turn limited his minutes (lowest since 2003) and shot attempts (lowest since 2006). Throw in early season elbow surgery on his shooting arm with the role change and it’s no surprise to anyone who followed the team extensively that Johnson’s numbers were down.
But if Drew’s plan was to keep Johnson fresh for the playoffs, he never unleashed him once the team reached the destination and that’s what the Hawks clearly need before the inevitable decline sets in. Johnson’s shot attempts during the playoffs went up less than half a tenth. While guys like Bulls guard (and league MVP) Derrick Rose (+3.5) and Mavericks forward Dirk Nowitzki (+2.1) increased their offensive aggressiveness tremendously. A return to more of “Isolation Joe” may not be too much of a bad thing if utilized correctly.
2. Decision Time: Al Horford or Josh Smith
There are more than a few teams around the league who would literally trade a good chunk of their current rosters to acquire players with the talent Horford and Smith possess.
Unfortunately the Horford and Smith connection has been somewhat of a gift and curse for the Hawks.
While both players are immensely talented they continue to develop into too similar of a player.
Horford, a two-time All-Star selection, never backs down when asked about his desire to play power forward full-time in the lineup. Horford’s father, Tito Horford, a former NBA player has also chimed in on the issue of getting his son away from center duties in order to preserve his career longevity. On the other hand, Smith is a borderline All-Star in his own right and has clearly established himself as one of the most versatile power forwards in the game even earning All-Defensive team honors in 2010.
The Hawks as a team have absolutely no inside offensive presence because both players’ penchant for perimeter jump shooting.
Horford would likely return more assets in a potential trade, but he has the higher upside and could develop into a 20/10 threat in the next 2-3 years.
While Smith remains a fan favorite in Atlanta (erratic jump shooting aside), his trade value around the league is stable and he could easily yield a solid mix of talent and draft picks for his services.
The Hawks have significant holes in their roster at small forward and some would even argue center since it’s not Horford’s natural position.
View Lang Greene Archive Given the Hawks’ position to the salary cap as a team, a deal must be made because outside of Johnson who is basically untradeable coming off a down year and with his cap number, Horford or Smith brings in the most bang for the buck in the open market.
3. Give Jeff Teague the Keys of the
Offense After playing only nine minutes in the Hawks’ six game elimination of the Orlando Magic in the first round of the playoffs, the second year Teague was thrust into starting duty versus Chicago when Kirk Hinrich suffered a leg injury.
Teague responded in a huge fashion. In the first five games of the Chicago series Teague averaged 17 points per game which included three games of 20+ points. Plus he was tasked with guarding the most explosive scoring point guard in the league in Rose.
It’s become clear Teague plays at a much higher level when he doesn’t have to look over his shoulder at the bench every time he may commit an on court error.
With Hinrich out of the lineup and no other reliable point guard on the roster Teague played the best basketball of his career and 40 minutes per game in the series’ first five contests.
Heading into the 2012 campaign it’s time for the Hawks to finally make the commitment to Teague in order to see if he has the goods to handle the reins full-time.
4. Pay Jamal Crawford
After a pay me or trade me demand before the start of training camp and early season struggles related to pressing due to his upcoming free agent status Crawford handled the situation like a true professional. Overall, Crawford’s numbers were down from his Sixth Man of the Year campaign in 2010 but he was a huge factor in the team’s first round upset of the Magic.
Crawford is 31 and isn’t the player he once was, but he still has a few solid seasons left in his tank.
Winning basketball is about team cohesion, chemistry and unity. It would be extremely hard to integrate someone new into the Hawks’ lineup to fill the large role Crawford occupies in an offseason. The Hawks players trust Crawford and he’s an outstanding locker room presence for the team.
Additionally, Atlanta traded away the emerging Jordan Crawford to Washington when they acquired Hinrich at the trade deadline so the Hawks have no one in place behind Johnson at shooting guard if they let Crawford go in free agency.
There will be a few free agent options available this summer such as J.R. Smith and Michael Redd but Crawford already has the familiarity with the organization, clearly accepts his role and most importantly still has game left.
Typically, it isn’t a wise move to re-sign veterans a little past their prime to multi-year deals but in this case with no other viable options on the roster at shooting guard to develop – pay Crawford or some other playoff team will.
5. Retool on the Fly –
Actively Look to Deal While the Hawks gave up their 2011 first round pick in the Hinrich deal, the club should still actively look to get into the upcoming draft to refill their youth pipeline and find a diamond in the rough.
The club has actively tried to deal forward Marvin Williams in the past but found no takers because of the price tag. The Hawks should revisit this path now since Williams has just two years remaining at $16.9 million (ETO of $8 million in 2014).
Referring to step two, the team desperately needs an interior presence.
Not necessarily a guy who can score 15 points a game, just a guy who wants to live on the interior. As strong as Jason Collins was as a defensive presence this season, he doesn’t have the game at this point in his career to cause matchup problems for opponents. Potential centers on the market this summer (who aren’t commanding huge bucks) are Nenad Krstic, Nazr Mohammed, Spencer Hawes (restricted) and Greg Oden (restricted).
There have long been rumors of the Los Angeles Clippers making former All-Star Chris Kaman available for the right mix of talent.
Now more than ever it’s clear the Hawks need to make a move. The franchise isn’t as far away from title contention most would lead you to believe, but they need to execute the right moves from here forward to get there while Johnson still is a top three shooting guard.
drmaryb (*_-)
May 17th, 2011
3:49 pm
O’Brien
I for one hope we go into the luxury. If Stern has his way, he laid down a baseline for the new CBA yesterday. Looks like he wants to do away with the luxury tax.
Also O’Brien, I hope we do some salary dumps where ever possible anmd ship Marvin out of here. What do you think about Jamal?
Is he in or out? IDK about that one.
Geemack
May 17th, 2011
3:59 pm
Enter your comments here
K-Dogg
May 17th, 2011
4:36 pm
All i know is if we dont trade eitehr Josh or Big Al this year we never will and if we do we wont get back as much later as we could now. Really all of this center talk woudl not ahve been an issue had we went after one this offeason!! Like always say we could have got one of the vets real chepa this year and been ok for 2 to 3 years and not ask them to log alot of mintues b/c vs certain teams we dont need a center anyway!!!!!!
K-Dogg
May 17th, 2011
4:39 pm
This summer all the bigs come with risk unless we do a sign and trade. Oden, Yao, Nene all have big risk and are going to be still expensive… Im sure we are going to trade Josh to the clippers for Caveman Kaman they slaeries match up and im not too sure about that move but its the only one i can see b/c they can let him play the 3 and have Jordan who si cheaper start fro them.. This GM has really jacked things up b/c they refused to play younger point guards and were too dumb to see that Al and Josh were too littel to get it down and we have been saying it all here for the last 3 years!!!!!!!
Geemack
May 17th, 2011
4:39 pm
Melvin
Great information.
The Truth
May 17th, 2011
4:42 pm
HAWKS FANS
Let not your heart be troubled, if you believe in the Hawks, then believe also in “The Truth” and a simple fact that the Bulls were the better team. Not so much with one-on-one talent (excluding D Rose) but with depth from the bench. From a resource standpoint, it was the Hawks 7-1/2 man rotation vs. the Bulls 10 man rotation that ultimately killed their chances. A battle of attrition decided the outcome and Hawks came up short.
From a coaching standpoint, clearly the Hawks were overmatched. While Thibodeau was coaching free with a clear consistent strategy and making timely adjustments, LD was doing just the opposite; coaching scared with a short rotation, inconsistent strategy while making no effective adjustments after the surprising game 1 victory. So the fan’s outcry for roster upgrades really becomes a moot point since LD will likely not use them when the games matter the most. His tendency will always revert back to shorting his rotation regardless of his roster makeup, just like his mentor. This was the fate of many potentially useful players on the current roster including Etan, Jordon Crawford and Jeff Teague during the regular season. It has been repeatedly stated here many times, that any Hawks successes would be made despite of the coach. He basically wore out his thoroughbreds with an inconsistent rotation and eventually in the second-round of the playoffs, it caught up with them.
JJ rotating between SG to SF to PG
Josh Smith rotating between PF to SF (sometimes Center)
Al Horford rotating between Center to PF
Zaza rotating between Center to PF
Marvin rotating between SF to PF from starting to inconsistent bench-PT
Teague rotating between bench-warmer to leading PT in the playoffs
K Hinrich rotating between PG to SG
Jamal Crawford rotating between SG to PG
Jason Collins (inconsistent PT)
Etan (inconsistent PT)
Josh Powell (inconsistent PT)
Jordon Crawford (inconsistent PT)
When you put the overly used fatigued weary horses (toggling between multiple positions) up against a furious defense with rotating fresh legs, perhaps this might explain why JJ, Jamal and Horford had shaky offensive performances during crunch time with (at times) subpar defenses.
Given that depiction, you could say that the Hawks winning 2 games in the second round was an over-achieving accomplishment based on their under- achieving regular season performance. My off-season wish for upgrade would be to acquire FA Chris Wilcox from Detroit to spell Josh Smith. If the Hawks were successful in acquiring him, however, I’m sure LD would find a way to botch his PT, so my point is also moot as well.
Slim
May 17th, 2011
4:50 pm
so Lang Greene says Decision Time: Horford or Smith
avoiding the fact that Josh Smith can and has played the 3. What we trade him for Chris Kaman and watch the Clippers dominate us?
Horford can develop into a 20 and 10. And Marvin Williams will be stuck at the 3 erasing any contribution Horford makes.
there will always be someone longer and taller and more athletic than Horford.
ie Taj Gibson.
Bulls:
Rose/Bogans/Deng/Boozer/Noah
Watson/Korver-Brewer/Gibson/Asik-Thomas
Hawks:
Teague/Johnson**/Smith/Sanders/Bogut
Salmons***/pg-sg/Al Thornton/Gooden/Pachulia
**stuck with Johnson; no equal value; expirings?
***Salmons Joe Johnson backcourt could post up Rose/Bibby etc.?
Hawks will never get a true defensive center for Josh Smith. Best they could do is an offensive center like Nene. Nene is like Horford he needs the ball to be effective but then he gives up points and is real slow on the other end.
Bucks:
Jennings/Delfino/Marvin/Ilyasova/Horford
bucks get to run up and down and excite people in the regular season but lose any semblance of defense and will never compete on the boards with Orlando or Chicago.
Slim
May 17th, 2011
5:22 pm
Then again the Hawks are all talk and will not do what needs to be done. I think they trade Williams for OJ Mayo and move Joe Johnson to the 3. Smith for a center.
Then they have a goodsized frontcourt and an undersized backcourt.
::::
Alternatively they can trade Horford who is a well liked player but has never dominated against elite length in the playoffs. In some ways the NBA is a popularity contest. Horford made the 3rd All-NBA team over Carmelo Anthony who is one of the most talented forwards in the league but he forced a trade to New York. Thus he is left off the team.
Horford’s average length will continue to be thwarted by the likes of Taj Gibson and Carlos Boozer.
Chicago’s bigs wear you down and Horford will never be Amare Stoudemire or Kendrick Perkins who has a much longer wingspan. We always hear about Smith but not Horford. Horford’s a tweener but he’s the kind coaches like. Shoots a jumper and dunks on bigger guys from time to time.
I fear Atlanta will never do what needs to be done. Trade Josh Smith, but Marvin Williams must be attached to him. In addition to Smith for a defensive center make sure Williams also nets you a defensive power forward.
Good luck Atlanta, but we both know what’s going to happen next season.
“au revoir peur sous-performants”
2 scared to let JJ go for Marvin at the 2 and a chance at Dwight.
2 scared to develop Teague instead of Bibby and gave up a pick for Hinrich.
Now 2 scared to trade Horford, Williams, Hinrich for Bogut and Sanders’ potential along with Gooden and combo guard Salmons “win now” backups.
Atlanta is doomed Smith leaving will be the first step. This move will have a domino-effect it is that leaves the franchise in shambles with an alienated fanbase. Horford will average 18 and 10. Marvin 15 pts on 11 shots and the Hawks get blown out next season. If there is a next season.
The Game Has Changed
May 17th, 2011
6:39 pm
@OBrien-If you think Korver and Bogans are better shooters than Joe and Jamal you are kidding yourself. Also, the Thunders did do well through the draft. This is their second year in the playoffs. We went up against Boston three years ago and if we could have played better in game 7 we might have a ring. If the Thunders dont beat Dallas over the next two weeks they will be in the same boat as the Hawks. (Waiting on next year) We are striving, and will not stop.
ryan
May 17th, 2011
6:48 pm
Breaking news Hawks may be sold to guy that owns San Diego Padres they Hawks will not move out of Atlanta but you have be nervous that San Diego has no NBA team .
James on Pharr Rd
May 17th, 2011
8:22 pm
Najeh:on 1 PICK FOR JJ
Many of us have lost hair trying to imagine which team we could trick into such a deal for JJ. Even considering the flash of potential he could show on some teams with complimentary talent, I still find trading him difficult in the foreseeable future. I was reading about a clause to take bad contracts off the books in the new CBA to deal with (the Arenas & Lewis’ contracts) You would still have to pay Joe, but it wouldn’t get you in the luxury if you wanted to get more talent. I hope this applies to Mr. Johnson’s contract. In the case of Marvin, the only way I see him leaving is if we package him in a deal with other players possibly Al or Josh whoever the y decide on trading. I honestly believe that Sund has tried to ship Marvin for the last 3 years without luck-who would want him?
James on Pharr Rd
May 17th, 2011
8:56 pm
Teague finally getting national recognition: only thing this time is the allegations that he looked the other way while a team mate (Gary Clarke) raped someone when he was at Wake Forest. Th show was taped on NBC-The Today Show airing tonight
brigadierjerry
May 17th, 2011
9:11 pm
Looking at the remaining 4 teams, which was does the Hawks model after? Is it Dallas or Chicago who has a star player they build around?i dont see that because Joe Johnson I see cannot carry the team like Rose and Dirk can. Is it Okc, who have two young stars?Is it the Miami three stars but not a lot of depth?
I think that the Hawks need to make a move to change the complexion of the team and to me that means either Horford or Smith has to be traded for a player like a Gasol that northclyde mentioned a Garnett that I doubt would happen. I think they need to decide who they are going to build the team around. If it it Johnson than Smith or Horford have to get traded. If Johnson not going to be the future trade him.
Look at the Celtics playoff history with a team of Kenny Anderson Antoine Walker and Paul Pierce before making the trade for Garnett and Allen from 2001-2004
2001 Won First Round (Philadelphia, 3–2)
2001Won Conference Semifinals (Detroit, 4–1)
2001Lost Conference Finals (New Jersey, 2–4)
2002Won First Round (Indiana, 4–2)
2002Lost Conference Semifinals (New Jersey, 0–4
2003Lost First Round (Indiana, 0–4)
2004Lost First Round (Indiana, 3–4)
They didnt make playoffs in 2005 and 2006
They decided to completely change their team by trading Jefferson and picks for Garnett and drafted Rondo and also getting Allen
Hawks have their point guard and again sill have to decide who they are going to build around. It will have to be trough trades since they have little cap space.
What are your guys thoughts on what type of team model should the Hawks follow?
Slimjr
May 18th, 2011
12:06 am
Larry is the weakest link……………………
DinasaurFenton
May 18th, 2011
1:35 pm
Sund should get an extension, but Larry Drew should get a short leash. If Drew is brought back next year, give him one month for the Hawks to be on par with the elite teams; if they are not fire him quickly and bring in Jerry Sloan to help get us a title before this group of Hawks ages out. Smoove, Johnson, Crawford and Horford are all in their primes and will probably not get much better. As far as I can tell from everything Ive seen, Jamal Crawford has the ability to shoot as good as Pistol Pete Maravich. Al Horford has the potential to be as good as Wilt Chamberlain. And Josh Smoove has the ability to become as good as either D-Wade or LaBron James. Joe Johnson is Joe Johnson, but he needs to step up to his highest level of greatness (which was second best closer in the game behind Kobe Bryant). If these core 4 players real their level of competence and Teague has a breakout year as a starter next year and can be as good as Boston Celtic great Tiny Archiball, then the Hawks should be winning the Larry O’Brien trophy next June as they reach their goal to be world champions. Go Hawks.
joey1
May 18th, 2011
4:51 pm
hawk owner are a joke.. they just have money and are too cheap to go into luxury tax to actually make a team that can compete for championships… the hawks have been a top 8 the last 3 years we need a center and to trade marvin williams then this team will succeed..
imagine trading marvin williams and horford for andrew bogut, then sign free agent al thorton to small forward..
starting lineup teague,joe johnson, al thorton, josh smith, andrew bogut