Atlanta Hawks: The Chicago Way?
The Hawks need to get better. The Bulls needed to do the same last summer and Al said the Hawks might learn something from the way they went about it.
“That’s the perfect example,” he said. “They got that kid Asik. They got Korver, a shooter. They addressed their needs and got better. That’s a blueprint that I think if I’m the team I would look at.”
So let’s look at what the Bulls did last summer and see if the Hawks can copy the same formula:
- Al’s theory falls apart from the start: The Bulls had just $34 million in committed salaries for 2010-11 after clearing space to get in on the 2010 free-agent bonanza. The Hawks have about $67 million in committed salaries mostly because of J.J. and Smoove’s contracts and Al’s extension.
- The Bulls cleared more cap space by trading Hinrich and a first-round pick to the Wizards for a second-round pick. The Wizards coveted Hinrich and were willing to take on his $17 million salary. The Hawks don’t have a first-round draft pick. They also aren’t under the cap and so can’t make such a trade without taking back salary (under the current rules).
- The Bulls hired a coach with a single-minded obsession with defense (and didn’t break the bank to do it). L.D. talked a lot about defense when he was hired, too, but his personnel decisions usually didn’t match the talk. (The Hawks did end up playing good D in the playoffs and L.D. deserves some credit for that, especially his decision to use the Twin lineup against Orlando. But D was neither a big part of the team’s culture nor was it usually at the forefront of the way L.D. distributed minutes among his backcourt.)
- The Bulls signed Boozer for five years and $80 million. The Hawks don’t have cap space so they can’t outright sign such a player even if they wanted to pay the tax. But let’s go ahead and say the contract for J.J. last summer was their Boozer move.
- The Bulls signed Korver for 5 years and $15 million (the final year is partially guaranteed). They could do that because they had cap space. The Hawks can’t because they don’t.
- After the Magic matched their offer sheet to Redick, the Bulls signed Ronnie Brewer for two years and $9.5 guaranteed. The Hawks can’t do a deal like that because . . . well, you know.
- The Bulls signed Asik for two years and $3.6 million. They had acquired him in a 2008 draft-night trade with Portland in which they sent away three second-round picks. Maybe Pape Sy or Gladyr can be the next Asik?
- The Bulls acquired Watson in a sign-and-trade with Golden State. The deal was for two years and $7 million guaranteed. They could do this because of their cap room.
- The Bulls signed Bogans, Kurt Thomas and Scalabrine to minimum-salaried contracts. The Hawks presumably make similar moves, depending on the details of the new CBA.
Clearly, because of salary commitments already on the books, the Chicago Way can’t be the Hawks’ Way.
What’s next?
I know there are lots of questions about what the Hawks can and should do. Honestly, they are difficult to answer without knowing what the new CBA rules will look like. The players quickly rejected the league’s latest offer, which reportedly proposed a hard salary cap and salary rollbacks.
What will be the amount of the salary cap? What about the luxury tax? Will there be an amnesty provision to allow teams to shed salary? Will there still be cap exceptions and, if not, what about those teams whose payrolls are above the new salary cap?
“As players we are just trying to do the right thing for current players and the players that are going to come behind us and for what the players before us worked so hard for,” Hinrich said. “We’ll see. Right now it probably looks like July 1 we are going to be locked out. For now, it’s up in the air.”
Under the current rules it’s hard to see how the Hawks could even fill out the roster with the minimum 13 players without paying the tax. Right now their options are limited to trades and using exceptions to acquire players whose salaries that don’t put them over the tax level. Assuming the tax threshold is about the same as it was the past three seasons, about $70 million, the Hawks would have roughly $3 million of wiggle room to sign six players.
Again, that’s based on the current rules and some assumptions. With the way things are going with the labor situation, who knows what the new system will look like when the league starts playing basketball again. But clearly the Hawks, like all teams, are counting on new rules more favorable to owners.
L.D. didn’t want to get into exactly what he thinks the Hawks need because he hadn’t talked to Rick Sund or the owners yet. (Sund, by the way, says he’s not talking until after the team’s scouting combine, which ends a week from Wednesday). But I noted the team’s lack of scoring at the rim and also their low free-throw rate and asked if that’s something that can only change with different personnel.
“Possibly,” L.D. said. “A lot of that is simply making the wrong decision out of ball movement on when to attack or settling for jump shots. You guys heard me say time and time again how we just settled for jump shots. We did not do a good job collectively in attacking the glass and going to the basket. That’s personnel-driven.
“Once we do spread the floor and the ball is moved we have to be mindful of just attacking. You can’t be afraid; you can’t be intimidated. You have to go in there with authority. Players that want to get to the free-throw line, they seek bodies. For them it’s not always about finishing the shot, they seek bodies to draw the and-1. That is something we will have to evaluate.”
J.J. seemed to hit on a similar theme when asked about the team’s needs.
“For us it’s guys like blue-collar guys, guys who do a lot of dirty work and do a lot of things that don’t show up in stat book,” J.J. said. “Those are the kind of guys that can help us out. We will see what happens. We’ve gotten better each year. Our postseason [this year] was probably the best it’s been.”
L.D. never could get his team to completely shed its isolation tendencies. When they got open shots and made them, then the ball and players moved and the Hawks were difficult to defend. That’s what happened in Games 1 and 4 against the Bulls.
When the defensive pressure intensified, or when the wrong guys took the wrong shots, then the Hawks started isolating and were easier to defend. That’s what happened in the fourth quarter of Game 5, which ended up being a lost opportunity for the Hawks to win the series.
Does L.D. still think this group of players us capable of running his offense?
“I’m still hopeful we can do that,” he said. “I think Chicago, their defensive pressure was much more intense than Orlando. Sometimes when you are playing under pressure you get sped up and you start getting away from the game plan. I think a lot of what Chicago did had a lot to do with that. That being said, we did not get to our spots like we did against Orlando. That tells me that it was jut the pressure of their defense.
“It was the same coverage [as Orlando] but once we played out of that double team [the Bulls] weren’t as organized as Orlando. I’m not going to abandon something that has been good to us. We just have to do a better job playing out of pressure, double teams. You still have to make plays and in making plays have to move the basketball. I thought we did a great job against Orlando. The Chicago series we weren’t as good.”
Joe said the offense “was kind of up and down” this season.
“We was all trying to feel each other out as far as him implementing his system and us trying to learn it,” he said. “At the same time there are times we looked great. That’s something we can build on and look forward to next year.”
Notes
- Teague said he’s scheduled for an MRI on his right wrist on Tuesday to make sure there’s no ligament damage.
- L.D. on meeting with Sund and owners: “I give them my views and hear their views. You have to slowly and methodically take your time and assess this season and the personnel, talk about things we lack and we need to get better. Do we have those players to make us better in certain areas or do we have to go out and find those kind of players? We have to look at everything and analyze everything and come to a decision about certain things, not necessarily an agreement. I’ve been around for a long time and I know you don’t always agree but important to lay it out on the table and talk about it.”
- L.D. on the postseason: “The question I asked myself, looking at the postseason, is were we better prepared this season than we were last year? Did we compete at a higher level this year than last year? Did we accomplish more goals than last year? I am my biggest critic when it comes to team getting prepared and going out there and executing game the plan, and I thought the answers to all those questions were, ‘Yes.’”
- Al on possibly adding a full-time center: “It’s going to be an interesting offseason because I think there are probably going to be some changes. I think having a bigger player like that to help is always a great strength and a great help. We will see what happens. I do like playing power forward. I like playing the center, as well, but if we can have another bigger body that would be great.”
- Smoove on if he prefers to play the 3: “It is what it is. It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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476 comments Add your comment
Teezo
May 16th, 2011
12:36 pm
vava74…Thats my only problem with JJ, is that he needs to be more aggressive…He needs to make it his goal to put up at least 20 shots a game just to keep the defense on their toes…His best attribute is that he’s a willing passer…
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:44 pm
“O’Brien
May 15th, 2011
6:46 pm
Congrats to OKC”
These guys are so young, it is amazing what they have accomplished. They now have Dallas instead of the Lakers. A big gift…no one picked Dallas, and they swept! OKC is in very good shape.
Grandad, way back, you say positions don’t matter, but they do where Josh ends up on the court. You aren’t allowing a big man to stand out there at the 3 pt line and wait his turn; he is supposed to be pounding the boards. That suggestion wasn’t meant to have Josh play with Al at all. Al is not tough enough on the defensive end, which is why Josh defends Noah, Howard and any other big move than Al. Al wants to stay away from the contact. I don’t care his accolades at this point. I am still waiting for him to show all-star form in the playoffs. IMO, Josh is as worth an all-star slot as Al.
I simply don’t want Josh facing the basket at 19 feet. He isn’t driving to the basket. We’re talking about a 80-90 percent level of wasing that offensive possession. Having Josh inside on offense removes that waste. One small step that can be done without doing anything else.
Let Marvin stand out there and do nothing; it’s symbolic with what he has become anyway.
SteveW, LD doesnt deal with the defense. He is all about improving the offense. How did that go this year? .500 says a lot to the improvement of moving the ball. At least move the ball towards the basket some of the time.
MC points out that we have what, 3M for the last 6 slots. I find that totally humorous. NO ONE saw this coming after last summer’s big signing? Hard to fathom that management has everything under control and is continuing on their original plan.
Has LD told us lately how much of a nightmare it will be for opponents to match up with our versatility? Ugh.
I want to add ‘Blow it up’ to my sig’…if I had a sig.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:46 pm
And as the saying goes, we go as Joe goes…..I think we need to shop for another #1, whether that be an elite player or a top tier draft pick. It fits for both situations.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
12:54 pm
Thoughts to ponder, but don’t take too long…
- Would DRose be the MVP under the Woody/LD regime?
- Would Asik/Gibson be trusted by LD if the unit continued to play well?
- Would Deng be forced to stand out the 3 pt line in LD’s scheme? What, no slashing to the basket allowed?
Small bits but I am sure there’s more that can be presented for LD’s strategies…..
dj dascorpian
May 16th, 2011
12:55 pm
KCG
May 16th, 2011
10:08 am
I hate to say it but JJ is the biggest problem with this team. Like Charles Barkley said on 790 “It does not matter which industry you’re working in, the highest paid person is always expected to produce more” The entire Hawks team takes on the personality of JJ. That’s why they’re so soft and don’t care sometimes. How would you feel if someone at your job got paid dbl your salary for practically doing the same thing or for even doing less than what you do. JJ’s salary and performance gives every Hawks player an excuse for not playing well. In the back of their minds they are thinking “Well its not like JJ is playing any better and he makes twice as much as I do”. I would trade JJ before anybody else, this is the only way to change the culture of the team.
KCJ: You are exactly on point. J.J. is the biggest problem “elephant in the room”, so to speak. Yes, it can be a difficult sell to all of the other Hawks players, who look at J.J. hugh contract and look at what he isn’t doing and use it as an excuse for their poor performance. That is why you have to cut your losses and try to get some other team like the Suns where you have a speedy point guard like Nash and a beast like Stoudemire and other role players where J.J. can fit right in. J.J. doesn’t want to be spot-lighted as the feature guard. J.J. just wants amenity and he will do his thing as a second or third option player. Since the Hawks probably are not going to keep him, two things have to happen. Get rid of AL Horford. Keep Josh, then get a shot blocker/rebounder with a low post back to the basket presence. Al plays best when his back is away from the basket. Look at Bosh. What’s the difference? Bosh can hit that 15 to 20 ft jumper at different spots. Al has to be stationed in position at the foul line-and he have to time-misses. Bosh is taller and can block shots. Al’s not so tall-and definately_not intimadating. I still say that Al’s game and attitude toward the post_up game was greatly influenced by that MacTruck hit from Blake Griffen. They say that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger-well, that being said, Al-we didn’t see it so you must be dead.
ant banks
May 16th, 2011
12:55 pm
shawn
May 16th, 2011
12:13 pm
the scary thing about the bulls is they are under the salary cap now! and they are on d12 list of teams he would go to by trading boozer and asik and the 5 first round draft picks they have for the next 2years they would be unstopable imangine rose/freeagent/deng/noah/howard who could stop that lineup being coach by thibs Hawks we need to make serious moves the bulls went from 8seed to first in one year and were happy we won two games in the semi against a team who was put together over the summer! last but maybe most important the bulls payroll is 56mil the hawks is 67mil how are we paying 11mil more for this team did you all watch the game last night that team is below the cap we need changes doing the samething over expecting different result is INSANE!
I TOTALLY AGREE!!! CHICAGO, NOT THE HEAT, WILL WIN THE NEXT 3,4, 5 RINGS IF THEY GET D12
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
1:06 pm
from Atlanta
Marvin Williams + Kirk Hinrich + Al Horford
from Milwaukee
Larry Sanders + Andrew Bogut + John Salmons + Drew Goodens contract
Jeff Teague/John Salmons (big guards that can post up Derrick Rose)
Joe Johnson/John Salmons/Travis Leslie? (big guards that can post up Derrick Rose)
Josh Smith (228-230lbs)/John Salmons
Larry Sanders/Josh Smith/Gooden
Andrew Bogut/Zaza Pachulia/Jason Collins/Gooden
::::::+draft blue collar bigs, guards, (have enough forwards)
Milwaukee fans on realgm were receptive to this. Sanders has a much longer wingspan and room to increase strength (compared to Smith)(potential)
and Bogut’s wingspan, man to man and overall Defensive Awareness and strength are better than Horford’s.
Milwaukee gets an athletic center, and loses their 5-year contracts we match up with anyone in the league.
-obviously JC will walk, hopefully he has a future with the organization but due to the contract JJ received we cannot commit much salary to scorers with Salmons aboard.
-You’re welcome
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
1:21 pm
Its obvious now, but I like that OKC went out at the deadline and brought in Perkins and Mohammed and made their backline that much deeper. They now have flexibility for Ibaka and Collison, and Aldrich now won’t get a uni. That looks like one of the worse draft decisions so far from last year.
Lil Nate and Royal Ivey aren’t even seeing the court time….that scout team is probably competitive though…and they’re committed to only 50M at this point for next year.
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
1:26 pm
Marvin will be a 20pt scorer in the rec league at LA Fitness
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:33 pm
Grandad – why do you assume we ALL want Al to be a PF and for us to get a center. I have said our biggest problem was PG and SF. I felt we had the PG and should have addressed the SF problem. I would love to have an athletic C (i.e. Chandler, etc. or a VERY short list), but rather have a SF. Al is an All-Star and Center! Hit the weight room and play center!
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:34 pm
I doubt Marvin will average 20 ppg at the 40+ church league! This guy just does not have it.
myrak43
May 16th, 2011
1:38 pm
bjrufino
May 16th, 2011
1:09 am
you wrote “my dream hawks lineup for next season
Teague
NIck young (sign as free agent)
Joe Johnson
Al HOrford
Dwight Howard (trade for marvin and josh smith)”
before you all just throw trade moves out there plz ask yourself would the other team do it. I mean if you where a Magic fan would you what them to trade Howard for Marvin and Josh?
Hey why not just trade Marvin and Josh for Dwight Howard and Horofrd and Teague for Chris Paul. then sign free agents Andrei Kirilenko,Carl Landry, Troy Murphy, Jamal Crawford, T-Mack, Tayshaun Prince. line up
Chris Paul/Kirk
JJ/ Crawford
Prince/Tmack
Andrei Kirilenko/landry
Howard/Zaza
ag
May 16th, 2011
1:44 pm
I do think the Hawks should try to get Nick Young (FA) – he should have been part of this season’s deal. Hilton Armstrong is a joke!
Opoets
May 16th, 2011
1:54 pm
I have been a Hawks fan for 36 years. During this time they have never been in a title game, made some of the worst draft picks, and have consistently had a bunch of boobs running the organization. What makes you think the next 36 years will be any different?
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:02 pm
Rudy Gay on the trading block, Joe would be perfect in Memphis.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:07 pm
were did you hear that? he just signed a contract in Memphis. I am sure they are having cap problems and Gasol and Randolph are FA
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:09 pm
JOE FOR RUDY AND TONEY
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:16 pm
Marc Gasol will be a restricted free agent in July and Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley believes he’ll retain his young center.
“Marc will decide whether he wants to be here. We will aggressively go after him,” Heisley told ESPN.com’s Marc Stein. “He’s a restricted free agent, so we can match whatever’s out there. But obviously if Marc wants to leave, I’m going to have a different attitude than if he wants to stay. I hope he wants to stay. And after what we’ve done in the playoffs, I think he will.”
The Grizzlies will have one of the best starting frontlines in the NBA next season with Gasol, Zach Randolph and the return of Rudy Gay.
The Grizzlies payroll will rise significantly next season and while Gasol will return, the player most likely to move on is shooting guard O.J. Mayo. Heisley simply can’t afford to pay everyone a big salary and Mayo will probably be the player to be traded in the offseason.
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
STARTERS TEAGUE, RUDY, JOSH, HORFORD, ?
Sign and trade jamal for Samuel Dalembert.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 16th, 2011
2:17 pm
Demarcus Cousins will be the starting center for Kings next year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
2:19 pm
@MC what do you think?
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith*/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
obviously there is trepidation in starting Teague but if the organization is serious they make this move and pressure Teague into working on his game and stay in constant contact with him.
Hire him a summer workout coach and tell him that we believe in him being the catalyst for the offense going forward. We cannot keep trying to turn out 6′2 shooting guards. His/Hawks optimal future is as a pick and roll point guard.
This is what Rose did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tdwMyzvQss
Height Wingspan Weight
Derrick: 6′2.5 6′8 196
Jeff Teague: 6′1.5 6′7.5 180+
Chris Paul: 6′1 6′ 4.25″ 180+
very similar attributes and Teague has shown he can hold his own. His PER (contributions made per minute) during the playoffs was 17.3. Rajon Rondo’s was 17.1.
We have an elite athlete who is starting to shake off some of his rawness at the position. We need to develop his offensive awareness, pick and roll awareness, etc starting now.
Get the team the defensive centers and forwards from Milwaukee. Al Horford has done much for this team but Hawks have to transition to a winning team and Atlanta needs rugged interior defense if they ever hope to reach the ECF.
Hawks cannot trade Smith and stick with Marvin at small forward. We need to take on Gooden, Bogut, Salmons and Sanders.
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:23 pm
UPDATE: ESPN’s John Hollinger doesn’t agree that the Grizzlies are necessarily better without Gay in the lineup.
“Look at what they did when a) they were playing Tony Allen, and b) Gay was still healthy,” he wrote. “Memphis was crushing people. The reason the ‘with Gay”numbers aren’t strong is because in the beginning of the year Memphis had Xavier Henry starting, Allen getting DNPs and Acie Law as the backup PG, facts that have nothing whatsoever to do with Gay.”
Either way, it’s possible someone on Memphis could be the odd man out due to payroll concerns.
—
The Grizzlies have been the surprise of the 2010-11 NBA Playoffs, as the No. 8 seed got past the Spurs in the first round and currently are knotted up 2-2 with the Thunder in the Western Conference semifinals.
The Grizzlies have done it all without Rudy Gay — who got a large contract this past summer from the team — due to a shoulder injury.
And it’s leaving NBA.com’s David Aldridge to wonder if Memphis should think about trading him this summer.
“They’ve gone from a team where Gay was the (understandable) offensive focal point to a more balanced unit, with the ball going inside on almost every possession to either Zach Randolph or Marc Gasol,” he wrote. ” … Memphis owner Michael Heisley is never going to have a $90 million payroll. He’s already on the hook for Randoph, and point guard Mike Conley (starting his five-year, $44 million extension next season), and will have to pay rising restricted free agent Marc Gasol big bucks to keep him around. Gay’s $82 million extension suddenly sticks out like a sore thumb for a small-market team.”
If the team ever entertained the idea, the Clippers — who could stand an upgrade at small forward — would potentially be one team interested in Gay.
ag
May 16th, 2011
2:23 pm
If we could trade for Gay and dump Marvin and possibly Hinrich. Can’t resign Jamal. Have to see if this would work.
Blast
May 16th, 2011
2:46 pm
MC,
Nice article, but the following blog reponse is the most boring I have ever had to read since you took over. Boring, boring, boring comments, all 8 pages of it.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
2:53 pm
@darrel starks
Joe Johnson’s contract and age are not ideal for Memphis to trade Rudy Gay. It would contradict them trading for cap relief.
Even if we did manage Joe for Rudy. Our problem would still be we that we cannot compete on the boards with a 6′8 and 6′9.75 PF/C combination with 7′0 wingspans. Lebron James has a 7′0 wingspan, he plays the 3.
Even with all their athleticism the Heat are not as good a rebounding team or defensive team as Chicago. Unless you have all star scorers at all 5 positions you need a center to win in this league.
Jamal Crawford walks. necessary evil of $ mismanagement
Josh Smith becomes 230 lbs. we need to defend and run.
Al Horford becomes Andrew Bogut. we need to DEFEND and then run.
Marvin Williams becomes Larry Sanders. we need to DEFEND and then run.
Jamal Crawford becomes John Salmons. a big guard who is 31 but can defend and run.
Kirk Hinrich becomes Jeff Teague. Jeff Teague needs to develop into a point guard/show his talent.
If all else fails Teague can be packaged for a proven point guard? I doubt he fails if the organization puts the onus on him and that he has responsibility for this team ala Rondo ala Tony Parker.
Just because he was drafted midround and because we lost a lot for Hinrich doesnt mean the organization cant admit its mistakes and commit to winning.
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith*/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
Salmons*/Gooden*/Pachulia
Kurt Thomas types, Taj Gibson types. strong blue collar rebounders, defenders. not more high paid shooters.
free agency/draft: ???
Geemack
May 16th, 2011
3:10 pm
Magic Johnson
Al and Josh should be those blue collar guys to do the dirty work. It would be different if they were big time scorers, but they are not. They should be doing all the dirty rebounding and defensive things.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
3:12 pm
Jeff Teague/Joe Johnson/Josh Smith (SF-PF lose weight)/Larry Sanders/Andrew Bogut
Salmons (PG-SG-SF)/ /Gooden*/Pachulia
free agency: Jeff Adrien ?? short but has strength in his rebounding base and quick to the ball.
idk if there are any 7′1 Semih Erdens or 7′0, 260 Omer Asik’s lying around … that’s where scouting comes in ATL. Chinemelu Elonu? he’s signed overseas rangy energy player…
drmaryb (*_-)
May 16th, 2011
3:13 pm
Go North My Friend!
Atlanta Spirit, True North in negotiations about Thrashers sale, relocatio
By Chris Vivlamore
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The Atlanta Spirit has begun negotiations with True North Sports and Entertainment on the sale of the Thrashers, which would result in relocation to Winnipeg, according to a person familiar with the NHL’s sale process.
A deal has not been completed and it is also not known how long the two sides have been negotiating. However, the fact that talks are on-going could mean the Thrashers would relocate to Manitoba perhaps as soon as next season.
_____________________
Be on the watch for this sale.
______________________
In other News:
Shannon Brown of the Lakers, allegedly had relations with Pau Gasol’s significant other, thereby leading to the team’s demise in round 2 and being swept by the Mavericks. Shannon Brown has recently married the R&B singer, Monica. Shannon tweeted today that he did not have relations with that woman. Sounds familiar?
_______________________
David Stern has released the starting point for the new CBA negotiations on behalf of the NBA. Looks like there will be a battle. Stern is suggesting that the luxury tax be removed and is attempting to remove guaranteed contracts. Looks like Stern wants a soft cap with a limit of 45M with allowances to exceed that soft cap to a hard limit.
_________________
Confusing! Yes.
________________
-drmaryb- The Entertainment Reporter
Rabbi
May 16th, 2011
3:22 pm
The Hawks have no heart and no one to lead them. JJ is too passive and meek. There will be some games when your shot is not falling but there is absolutely no excuse for not playing D and not going all out….especially in a game 6 situation in your building….UNACCEPTABLE. All the talk about how athletic this bunch is but are they truly willing to go all out to get what they say they want…I don’t c it…….
Worldwide Clyde
May 16th, 2011
3:28 pm
Opoets
May 16th, 2011
1:54 pm
I have been a Hawks fan for 36 years. During this time they have never been in a title game, made some of the worst draft picks, and have consistently had a bunch of boobs running the organization. What makes you think the next 36 years will be any different?
FIRE LD
BigTimeTECHFan
May 16th, 2011
3:29 pm
They could sign C Paul, L James, D Howard and they would still be the same if Joe Johnson just keep dribbling the ball around. Hawks have talant, need coach to make them play right.
Neki Ecko
May 16th, 2011
4:01 pm
@Magic Johnson
I would trade with GSW before I trade with Bucks, Seriously. Bogut is okay, but he disappear way too much there and nother of those guys that Bucks is leader and got toughness. I say let find the new face and leader of this team.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
4:30 pm
@Neki Ecko
Golden State is famous for going small and having offensive oriented players instead of defense.
Atlanta was ranked 15th in points allowed.
Milwaukee was ranked 4th.
Golden State was ranked 26th. Trading for their big men is to be avoided. Larry Sanders and Bogut have more length and size than Golden State and the numbers prove it.
Atlanta needs defense and blue collar and Horford+Williams+Hinrich for Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden is what is necessary to shore up our front line.
All the other alternatives would require a superstar to overcome the defensive/rebounding deficiencies. and even that model can fail
(see Chicago vs Miami) Chicago bigs will wear your team down if you can’t compete on the boards.
::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
4:32 pm
DMB, all that LaLa land chaos has to raise an eyebrow…wow, never get involved in a rumor with a teammates’ significant other! Nothin ever turns out good for either.
Can you imagine the stuff had that been in the A-T-L? DMB would be our onsite roving blogger! Good work DMB.
On the Thrashers, I am not hearing exclusive negotiating is ongoing. The ASG doesn’t want to freeze out any buyers..you know like the time they snuck in and stole the Hawks/Thrashers/Philips from under David McDavid. Easy to see why we no longer have Bernie Mullins around. He was a great rep for the ASG and he could no longer deal with the non-sense. The longer this goes, the cheaper the deal gets for whoever decides to buy our hockey team. Guess who is the only loser here is?
One more DMB, perhaps you know this….on the Al contract signing….Did he start complaining about playing center before or after his multi-year 60M contract? Hmmmm….
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
4:36 pm
Let’s see here, the Hawks should see how we can acquire Bogut? So you’re saying that you want both players chosen prior to CP3 and Deron Williams? I gotta say, that might not be the best idea for this fan base to absorb. Bogut has big numbers as well, and aren’t the Bucks still waiting for him to lead them to a playoff series victory.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
4:42 pm
@MC
the Chicago Way is right. It requires having a steady stream of big men to rebound, crash glass and reqard your team with extra possessions.
If the Heat have 2 superstars and an All-Star power forward and are still one piece away because Chicago had over 17 offensive rebounds, what hope does Atlanta have with Smith and Horford at PF and C. The Answer: none.
:::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
Tough changes need to be made. And telling Smith to lose the weight and play SF/PF leaves us with an out. His value is still there and we can package him in a trade for a SF.
Teague becomes the set-up man and runs the elbow pick and roll with a lighter more athletic Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5EHiqFtrLY
Joe takes a high volume of shots off the ball and punishes double teams. Bogut crashes. Sanders bulks up and crashes. Hopefully develops a reliable jump shot with more solid body. Has good form.
Gooden is an older version of Gibson. He should not be starting though his defense gets worse as the game goes on. Offensive player and a bit more physical than he looks. Played for the Bulls at one time.
Hawks need to quit the charades they need to become a defensive team to win. and the only way to do that is to acquire elite defensive length/players.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
4:50 pm
1. northcyde – agreed, r e, potential
2. ILL-Logical & KCG – Co-Sign on Joe
3. KevinM – I don’t think we are dis-agreeing;
we are discussing semantics. I wish for Josh to play the hi/post.
He can guard [2's] through some [5's]. (four positions)
Calling he or Al a short-stop and a punter is okay by me,
whether or not they are in combo with two guards & a post
—or—
three guards, it makes no difference what you name them.
4. Mary Ellen – Shannon Brown…hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
5. ag – Kind of a collective assumption.
Kindly forgive me sir, if you will.
I don’t care where Al plays as long as it’s in Atlanta,
—but—
I very much want one or two Bigs;
who can defend the rim and more importantly rebound.
Neither do I care if they start [..r e, Asik..].
_____________________________________________________
rumor has it that due to what drmaryb reported;
[..it is a rumor until it becomes a fact..]
(then is it really a fact) ?
just because espn reports it @ some point?
my sources are saying “the incident”
was a major disruption,
* that P.G. wants out of LA.
Now;
Joe for Pau,
straight up before July.
After July business will shut down.
Trades *can be made prior.
Do not have to wait on new CBA.
voice of reason
May 16th, 2011
4:52 pm
how about trading jj, smoove and marvin for d12? magic know he’s not coming back, and even if we only get him for one year we still unload jjs and marvins contracts.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
4:59 pm
Magic Johnson
You’re wanting more blue collar players
so you give up Al and Kirk for filler ?
I think your motives are good but your talent evaluation
maybe, just maybe, needs to be re-thought.
Sanders is a nice young piece.
Bogut is a terrific Big,
right swap, right players & I’m behind you.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:00 pm
@KevinM
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
::::
last year the Bucks took us to 7 games without Bogut.
Chris Webber said it best on NBATV this is not the Hawks’ players fault its managements fault.
Horford is an offensive center, Williams is a spot up shooter who had his best games at the 2, Hinrich is good but Teague has more ability and the management would be professional like Chicago they would tell Teague get in the gym and would even help him find a trainer and show faith in him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tdwMyzvQss
Bogut is arguably the best 1 on 1 defensive center a bigger screen setter and led the league in blocks. The fan base will not absorb Marvin Williams at sf/pf/center any longer.
The truth will come out how much Atlanta wants to win. It starts with defense and rebounding.
:::::::::::::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
::::::::
If you have any better trade proposals, I’m all ears. Otherwise it makes no sense to retain such a small frontcourt.
This is not Horford vs Smith vs JJ. Nor is it Marvin Williams vs Deron Williams vs Chris Paul.
Atlanta Hawks reality is the Atlanta Hawks reality.
The emotional stuff needs to go.
They can make a move or they can stand pat and count the money they made from the last two playoff blowouts.
Eventually the organization has to decide whether they want to stop being a small space the floor team or do they want to commit to getting size like Boston, Chicago and Orlando?
and Dallas and Memphis etc.
::
edit: Hamed Haddaddi from Memphis would be a great hustle big we could look into. The Chicago Way. Let your guards shoot everyone else crash the board
edit: if Smith loses weight and displays his old block a shot run and dunk self and regains lift on his jump shot. His trade value rises and we might be able to trade him off for a Granger or Rudy Gay.
However, I feel Smith is a blue collar guy like Horford, only he has/had the athletic ability to display it and make a difference without the ball in his hands.
davisarei
May 16th, 2011
5:11 pm
http://davisarei.blogspot.com/2011/05/hope-for-new-look-hawks.html
O'Brien
May 16th, 2011
5:13 pm
KevinM,
One good thing about Bogut is he knows he is a center, and does not ask to play PF.
MC points out that we have what, 3M for the last 6 slots. I find that totally humorous. NO ONE saw this coming after last summer’s big signing?.
The ASG put all their eggs in JJ’s baskets, hoping that with a new coach, he would be able to leqad them further in the playoffs. What’s ironic, is that although JJ got a raise, his new boss said he wants him to do less work.
Grandad
May 16th, 2011
5:35 pm
Diaper Al ?
Someone please enlighten me to the quote or quotes,
where he “whines”…..I seem to have missed it / them.
You know this kid had a bad 2011 play-offs and folks
around here act as if he has been turrible [Marv] or
inconsistent [Josh] or passive [Joe]…the whole time
he’s been a Hawk.
Sautee argued at length about actual quotes
where he actually “complained” about his position.
It’s odd how highly valued he is around the league
*[..Yes - dad-gummit - that's a fact..]
yet around here he has become a villain of sorts.
Lot’s of times folks don’t realize what you’ve got,
until you don’t have it anymore ! (or somethin’ like that)
Grandad, proud supporter of Al Horford !
Also:
Pres. Obama, Ron Paul, Robert Duvall, Three Dog Night,
Conway Twitty, Johnny U, Hines Ward, Shane Battier,
Scarlett Johansson, Jon Stewart, Dennis Rodman,
Ben Howland, Max Lucado, Ashley Judd, Dale Murphy,
Renée Zellweger, T. Boone Pickens, & D. L. Hughley.
*among others
The Game Has Changed
May 16th, 2011
5:39 pm
@Magic Johnson- Why would we give up players who make it to the playoffs every year for players who will never return to the playoffs. Keep dreaming. Bogut has been hurt for the past two years. If we made that trade the Hawks would be watching the Bucks in the second round next year
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:45 pm
People need to stop playing the blame game. Either propose a constructive roster and say why it will work or stop it.
Some people will blame Al, some will blame Josh, JJ, some will blame Hinrich’s hamstring some will blame the coach etc.
But tangible real evidence is that the team gets outrebounded and dunked on and worn down and shoots to many jump shots with no inside game.
One problem the Miami Heat do this better than us and even they are one good player away.
:::
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
:::
no emotions just a cold hard swap. The Hawks put all their eggs in JJs basket now if you believe Horford is going to come back at 260 sacrificing what athleticism he has and that Marvin covers the 20 ppg gap that we always get blown out by then keep dreaming. Its not going to happen.
Williams and JJ are 2 bad contracts. Smith has the most value even after we acquire 2 bigs. Al Horford is David Lee on his best days. Hawks need to cut their losses or face a dwindling fan base.
Team morale will decline if no changes are made. Hinrich starts, Teague’s excitement goes to the bench. Fans leave. Teammates yell at each other. Smith is traded for Chris Kaman. Playoffs occur. Horford takes 20 shots. Marvin disappears. not enough. First round exit.
Magic Johnson
May 16th, 2011
5:46 pm
Rinse and repeat.
or
from Atlanta
Horford+Williams+Hinrich
from Milwaukee
Bogut+Sanders+Salmons+Gooden
4 years as a .500 team should tell u changes need to be made to take the next step.
tidog
May 16th, 2011
5:49 pm
I’d like to Magic Johnson step up to the plate with a group of investors and buy the Hawks. Think about it for a minute.
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
6:04 pm
Grandad, understood going forward…I just want Josh inside whether they post him as a 1 or a 5. Get him off the 3 pt island. He has the ball in his hands with the shot clock winding down all too much. And on JJ/Pau, is there really a LA need to go get Joe? I’m not sure how he fits with Artest/Kobe/Odom getting big minutes….I don’t see him getting ATL type minutes out there unless LA were to dump Artest. But I like the big-blockbuster scenario. I take Gasol or Bynum in a heartbeat for any member on this team.
Magic, again, we can see how good Bogut is as a player last year? He averaged 12/11 on a mediocre team who had high expectations and many of us here were raving about their moves. Well, those moves failed miserably. While Bogut got blocked shots, he was anemic on the other end……44% from the FT line? Looking at the defensive side, Bogut had an excellent defensive line. I gotta ask though why Al got 3X more votes for 1st team all defense and Bogut only got 1 vote. Is there bias there? Probably, because of how Milwaukee did, and the small market he plays in.
I will agree, his salary is doable provided we move a captain and someone else. I am not looking to find a better option than what you presented; I am just stating how difficult it could be to have he and Marvin on the same team from the ‘05 draft. There may be a lot of fans here who think Bogut is a better player than Al would be for us. At this point with this roster, I am ready for numerous shakeups, but I am more interested in getting management going the right direction and not making moves in management based on salary limitations.
OB, can’t improve on those comments. I didn’t want Joe taking up that much cap space in the first place. Very few deserve that honor.
I see where Stern is looking to bring in a $45M soft cap, probably to grandfather-in (no offense Grandad)! the current salaries of so many over-paid players. He also wanted to take away long term contract deals.
I envision a very sterile negotiation period for the league. This could be a long one.
2 more side notes around the league: Wizards will take Enes Kanter if they end up with the #1 pick. I say excellent move! He has a big upside heading into this year.
And did anyone notice that the Celtics own the LA Clippers 2012 1st rounder? That is an almost guaranteed slot in the lottery!
With Doc signing a long-term deal and no chance if there ever was one to get him back to the ATL, he could very well end up coaching his son Austin if the Clippers continue their bungling ways. Does that give anyone a thought that Ainge may try to move Rondo about that same time? Hmmmm……
The Game Has Changed
May 16th, 2011
6:07 pm
@Terrell-Do you actually think Za Za or Collins could have won the second round last year against Orlando. LOL Ha Ha Ha. Man you are so funny. Drew did well this year. The Bulls are doing to the Heat what they did to us. Lebron and Wade are going to do the same thing Joe and Jamal did. Struggle and maybe win 2 games. If they win 2
KevinM
May 16th, 2011
6:11 pm
With the limitations to the salary cap going forward, we really need to regress and develop our own top draft picks. The ones we have currently are not leading us to the ECF. We were 10 games short this year.
I am not a basher of Al by any means; it may be that he can’t be traded anyway at this time. But with a little bit more than a month to go and with 1 2nd round draft pick at 48, can we really expect our GM in question and without a known future (maybe he knows?) to make a big move in such a short time? After all, he isn’t really known as ‘Quick Rick’ Sund.