Atlanta Hawks: The Chicago Way?
The Hawks need to get better. The Bulls needed to do the same last summer and Al said the Hawks might learn something from the way they went about it.
“That’s the perfect example,” he said. “They got that kid Asik. They got Korver, a shooter. They addressed their needs and got better. That’s a blueprint that I think if I’m the team I would look at.”
So let’s look at what the Bulls did last summer and see if the Hawks can copy the same formula:
- Al’s theory falls apart from the start: The Bulls had just $34 million in committed salaries for 2010-11 after clearing space to get in on the 2010 free-agent bonanza. The Hawks have about $67 million in committed salaries mostly because of J.J. and Smoove’s contracts and Al’s extension.
- The Bulls cleared more cap space by trading Hinrich and a first-round pick to the Wizards for a second-round pick. The Wizards coveted Hinrich and were willing to take on his $17 million salary. The Hawks don’t have a first-round draft pick. They also aren’t under the cap and so can’t make such a trade without taking back salary (under the current rules).
- The Bulls hired a coach with a single-minded obsession with defense (and didn’t break the bank to do it). L.D. talked a lot about defense when he was hired, too, but his personnel decisions usually didn’t match the talk. (The Hawks did end up playing good D in the playoffs and L.D. deserves some credit for that, especially his decision to use the Twin lineup against Orlando. But D was neither a big part of the team’s culture nor was it usually at the forefront of the way L.D. distributed minutes among his backcourt.)
- The Bulls signed Boozer for five years and $80 million. The Hawks don’t have cap space so they can’t outright sign such a player even if they wanted to pay the tax. But let’s go ahead and say the contract for J.J. last summer was their Boozer move.
- The Bulls signed Korver for 5 years and $15 million (the final year is partially guaranteed). They could do that because they had cap space. The Hawks can’t because they don’t.
- After the Magic matched their offer sheet to Redick, the Bulls signed Ronnie Brewer for two years and $9.5 guaranteed. The Hawks can’t do a deal like that because . . . well, you know.
- The Bulls signed Asik for two years and $3.6 million. They had acquired him in a 2008 draft-night trade with Portland in which they sent away three second-round picks. Maybe Pape Sy or Gladyr can be the next Asik?
- The Bulls acquired Watson in a sign-and-trade with Golden State. The deal was for two years and $7 million guaranteed. They could do this because of their cap room.
- The Bulls signed Bogans, Kurt Thomas and Scalabrine to minimum-salaried contracts. The Hawks presumably make similar moves, depending on the details of the new CBA.
Clearly, because of salary commitments already on the books, the Chicago Way can’t be the Hawks’ Way.
What’s next?
I know there are lots of questions about what the Hawks can and should do. Honestly, they are difficult to answer without knowing what the new CBA rules will look like. The players quickly rejected the league’s latest offer, which reportedly proposed a hard salary cap and salary rollbacks.
What will be the amount of the salary cap? What about the luxury tax? Will there be an amnesty provision to allow teams to shed salary? Will there still be cap exceptions and, if not, what about those teams whose payrolls are above the new salary cap?
“As players we are just trying to do the right thing for current players and the players that are going to come behind us and for what the players before us worked so hard for,” Hinrich said. “We’ll see. Right now it probably looks like July 1 we are going to be locked out. For now, it’s up in the air.”
Under the current rules it’s hard to see how the Hawks could even fill out the roster with the minimum 13 players without paying the tax. Right now their options are limited to trades and using exceptions to acquire players whose salaries that don’t put them over the tax level. Assuming the tax threshold is about the same as it was the past three seasons, about $70 million, the Hawks would have roughly $3 million of wiggle room to sign six players.
Again, that’s based on the current rules and some assumptions. With the way things are going with the labor situation, who knows what the new system will look like when the league starts playing basketball again. But clearly the Hawks, like all teams, are counting on new rules more favorable to owners.
L.D. didn’t want to get into exactly what he thinks the Hawks need because he hadn’t talked to Rick Sund or the owners yet. (Sund, by the way, says he’s not talking until after the team’s scouting combine, which ends a week from Wednesday). But I noted the team’s lack of scoring at the rim and also their low free-throw rate and asked if that’s something that can only change with different personnel.
“Possibly,” L.D. said. “A lot of that is simply making the wrong decision out of ball movement on when to attack or settling for jump shots. You guys heard me say time and time again how we just settled for jump shots. We did not do a good job collectively in attacking the glass and going to the basket. That’s personnel-driven.
“Once we do spread the floor and the ball is moved we have to be mindful of just attacking. You can’t be afraid; you can’t be intimidated. You have to go in there with authority. Players that want to get to the free-throw line, they seek bodies. For them it’s not always about finishing the shot, they seek bodies to draw the and-1. That is something we will have to evaluate.”
J.J. seemed to hit on a similar theme when asked about the team’s needs.
“For us it’s guys like blue-collar guys, guys who do a lot of dirty work and do a lot of things that don’t show up in stat book,” J.J. said. “Those are the kind of guys that can help us out. We will see what happens. We’ve gotten better each year. Our postseason [this year] was probably the best it’s been.”
L.D. never could get his team to completely shed its isolation tendencies. When they got open shots and made them, then the ball and players moved and the Hawks were difficult to defend. That’s what happened in Games 1 and 4 against the Bulls.
When the defensive pressure intensified, or when the wrong guys took the wrong shots, then the Hawks started isolating and were easier to defend. That’s what happened in the fourth quarter of Game 5, which ended up being a lost opportunity for the Hawks to win the series.
Does L.D. still think this group of players us capable of running his offense?
“I’m still hopeful we can do that,” he said. “I think Chicago, their defensive pressure was much more intense than Orlando. Sometimes when you are playing under pressure you get sped up and you start getting away from the game plan. I think a lot of what Chicago did had a lot to do with that. That being said, we did not get to our spots like we did against Orlando. That tells me that it was jut the pressure of their defense.
“It was the same coverage [as Orlando] but once we played out of that double team [the Bulls] weren’t as organized as Orlando. I’m not going to abandon something that has been good to us. We just have to do a better job playing out of pressure, double teams. You still have to make plays and in making plays have to move the basketball. I thought we did a great job against Orlando. The Chicago series we weren’t as good.”
Joe said the offense “was kind of up and down” this season.
“We was all trying to feel each other out as far as him implementing his system and us trying to learn it,” he said. “At the same time there are times we looked great. That’s something we can build on and look forward to next year.”
Notes
- Teague said he’s scheduled for an MRI on his right wrist on Tuesday to make sure there’s no ligament damage.
- L.D. on meeting with Sund and owners: “I give them my views and hear their views. You have to slowly and methodically take your time and assess this season and the personnel, talk about things we lack and we need to get better. Do we have those players to make us better in certain areas or do we have to go out and find those kind of players? We have to look at everything and analyze everything and come to a decision about certain things, not necessarily an agreement. I’ve been around for a long time and I know you don’t always agree but important to lay it out on the table and talk about it.”
- L.D. on the postseason: “The question I asked myself, looking at the postseason, is were we better prepared this season than we were last year? Did we compete at a higher level this year than last year? Did we accomplish more goals than last year? I am my biggest critic when it comes to team getting prepared and going out there and executing game the plan, and I thought the answers to all those questions were, ‘Yes.’”
- Al on possibly adding a full-time center: “It’s going to be an interesting offseason because I think there are probably going to be some changes. I think having a bigger player like that to help is always a great strength and a great help. We will see what happens. I do like playing power forward. I like playing the center, as well, but if we can have another bigger body that would be great.”
- Smoove on if he prefers to play the 3: “It is what it is. It’s a controversial question. I’m just here to play.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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476 comments Add your comment
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
6:27 pm
Grandad ,
Of course Jordan Crawford is not a bust. Didn’t you see how many points he scored up there in Washington? The guy is a legend in the making.
Nevermind the fact that his scoring doesn’t translate to his team winning.
Nevermind that his ceiling is Ben Gordon or Jamal Crawford.
Nevermind that his opponent will often score as much as he will if the talent level is there, because he’s a worse defender than Mike Bibby.
We just traded away the second coming of Jamal Crawford (who, ironically enough we can’t seem to get rid of quickly enough according to a lot of folks here) and that spells the franchise doom for the next 400 years.
While we’re at it, let’s trade Al, Marvin, and Joe for Dwight Howard and watch him and Smith set a record for blocked shots in a season. Instant championship. Guaranteed. Because blocked shots win championships.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
6:35 pm
I don’t buy the “we are too small” thing but so much, Grandad .
Noah is a legit 7 footer with shoes on, but he is about 220-225 lbs. Taj Gibson is about the same size as Marvin Williams. Boozer is a beefy guy, weighs more than Al does, but he’s about 6′8″. Asik has size, but is he bigger than Collins or Zaza?
What we lack down low is fundamentals (Josh) and consistent heart (Al). I want the Al Horford of ‘07-’08, ‘08-’09, and ‘09-’10. That guy was a beast.
Oh, and the whole thing about shot blocking…heh…two of the top defenses in the East (Boston, Chicago) lack true shotblockers…so it ain’t that. We need more positional defenders. It’s how Chicago stopped us. They didn’t stop us by waiting until we got to the rim to challenge us (which is what we do, and only one of our guys does it well), they stopped us from getting into the positions we like (which is what some of our guys do well, and most of our guys don’t do so well).
Challenging at the rim is a component of defense. Challenging shots all over the court, challenging positions, denying driving and passing lanes…that’s defense.
If all somebody is worried about is how well you challenge at the rim, then they’re missing the whole point: If that’s where you play defense all the time, then it’s a direct indicator that you are failing everywhere else on the court.
Ask Orlando, who we beat, despite them having the reigning DPOY and top shot-blocker. Guess what? He can’t block shots unless they come to him. So, we beat them from 15 feet and further out. Because the only defense they DID have was Dwight.
Rod from College Park
May 15th, 2011
6:37 pm
Ken Strickland,
Check your meds. You will never find a post in 3 years that ever had me supporting Mike Woodson. You also will not find me posting that Larry Drew was the next coming of Phil Jackson, unlike you, who talked about him before the season like he was the next coming of John Wooden. Yeah, I guess a true fan unlike myself would never spend his hard earned money on two season tickets, in the club section from 2005 to 2010. Again check you meds. The only player that I have always bashed is your favorite Hawk Marvin Williams. You remember him, the one you used to make all kind of excuses for when I was the only one calling him out 3 years ago. Sorry that people calling out your favorite Hawk Al Horford has you all upset, but he deserves as much blame, if not more, than any other Hawk. His offensive game was exposed in the playoffs at center or power forward.
O'Brien
May 15th, 2011
6:46 pm
Congrats to OKC.
Despite our high draft picks (#2, #3, #5, and a #6), and our high priced FA signing (Joe Johnson), OKC is the one who makes to the conference finals in Durant’s 4th year (he was drafted the same year as Al).
And their payroll for next year? $49 mil (compared to $64 mil for the Hawks).
Its amazing what can happen when you utilize your draft picks, and hire the right coach.
Rod from College Park
May 15th, 2011
6:57 pm
“How do you think our players feel when Jamal or Bibby weren’t scoring, were playing no DEF, yet is allowed to stay on the floor for extended mins?”
Better than they felt when Marvin was doing nothing on offense or defense and allowed to play more minutes than than Bibby or Jamal on a regular basis.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
7:15 pm
“Evan Turner, 2nd overall pick 2010 NBA draft.
Is generally considered a major bust !
His efficiency rating was 8.8 in 2010
Now for the Jordan Crawford crowd – PER = 8.4″
a) It’s way too early to declare Evan Turner to be a bust.
b) As far as advanced stats go, PER is a relatively worthless stat that means little outside the context of fantasy basketball.
c) Jordan Crawford’s PER in Washington was 12.6 and for the season as a whole was 11.8. Still not that good, but I don’t know where you are getting 8.4 from.
d) Jordan’s PER is low in large part because he took a lot of shots and didn’t make a high percentage of them. That means his season this year was not that good. It does not in any way preclude the possibility of him developing into a more efficient player. And if he does, his relatively high assist percentage and relatively low turnover rate for a high-usage 2-guard provide a lot of hope that he can be more than just the one-dimensional scorer that Jamal is.
Also, it’s hard to say much about his defense when he played most of his minutes on a lottery team in a wide open system where defensive fundamentals were not exactly stressed.
e) The primary objection to getting rid of Jordan Crawford is not that he is going to develop into some kind of All Star. It is that he is a tradeable asset who was sacrificed to acquire a player whose acquisition wouldn’t have been necessary if the Hawks had managed their existing assets properly in the first place. If the Hawks had simply played Teague, the presence of Jordan on the roster would have given them more flexibility on what they could do this offseason. He could be included in a trade for a player at a different position who could help the team, or he could step into the role Jamal is set to vacate.
Basically, the bottom line is that judging Jordan Crawford — and subsequently the Hawks’ decision to trade him — based on his low efficiency numbers in Washington is pretty short-sighted and doesn’t take into account the entire picture.
Two blown lottery picks later...
May 15th, 2011
7:21 pm
I think LD has the makings of a better than average hc, but I’m still befuddled that NO ONE in th organization had the insight to at least try Jordan Crawford at all, nor Jeff Teague until they had traded away basically this and next year’s draft for what is now the second best pg on the roster. Had Hinrich not gotten hurt, we’d still know nothing about Teague. Isn’t talent evaluation at least some part of a coach’s expertise??
Too many ‘character issue’ guys to have the team LD wants. I don’t see but two, maybe three of the starters, assuming the big lineup and Teague at point, that will ever give more than a sideways glance at playing defense. Josh could be a perennial all star, talked about with the best in the game
at his position, but he just….doesn’t….get…it. Perhaps it’s time for Josh and Marvin to head out of town, and finally…..’Schizo Joe’ has got to play like the highest paid player in the league. 35 one night, 10 the next does not cut it for a ’superstar’. A six game series is one thing, an 82 game season is something else entirely. He HAS to get more consistency.
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
7:42 pm
SAUTEE-You’re correct, I got ROD confused with JE JE.
ROD FROM CP-I owe you an apology for the MWoodson comment.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
7:49 pm
@Rod i shook my head when you said this “Better than they felt when Marvin was doing nothing on offense or defense and allowed to play more minutes than than Bibby or Jamal on a regular basis.”
Marvin averaged around 14ppg for 3 straight years at around 46% before Jamal and his 1000 shots a year came here…Marvin shot total dropped by 300 field goals…your best friend who makes almost twice as much as Marvin, (Josh) had one solid game throughout the whole playoffs and really he only shot 8-22 in that one game….The 120 million man maybe had 2, you never have anything to say about neither…
@Big Ray
If you think the Hawks are not too small you are not watching the games!..On Draft Express Howard only measured out at 6ft9 without shoes and you could see how much bigger and TALLER he is over AL…the problem is that AL spoiled ATL fans with his stellar play since he has been in the NBA..Everyone knows AL is a PF, well, except you!
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
7:49 pm
By the way, how different would our collective view of this team be if the Hawks had done what Memphis did in winning Game 6 at home before going on the road and getting blown out in Game 7?
Magic Johnson
May 15th, 2011
7:50 pm
@Big Ray
“Noah is a legit 7 footer with shoes on, but he is about 220-225 lbs.”
Noah was 223 and a slacker when he was drafted. He is up to 7′0 235 now.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Joakim-Noah-589/
“Taj Gibson is about the same size as Marvin Williams.”
no Williams is 6′8 245 and slow and is supposedly our SF STARTER but just the fact that you compare him to a PF who is a BACKup is a condemnation.
“Boozer is a beefy guy, weighs more than Al does, but he’s about 6′8″
Frequent misconception about both Boozer and his fellow Duke alum Elton Brand is 6′9.5 and around 266 pounds.
Al is 6′9.75 245-250. Also this is the second time you compared Horford to a starter. So Horford is supposed to box out both Joakim “I never give up” Noah and Carlos “270 and we’re the same speed” Boozer. And his help is the 6′7.75″ Marvin Williams?
That sounds like Orlando, Dwight and Ryan Anderson/Brandon Bass. They are blowing up their team, we want to see if Horford can become Dwight Howard.
“Oh, and the whole thing about shot blocking…heh…two of the top defenses in the East (Boston, Chicago) lack true shotblockers…so it ain’t that. We need more positional defenders. It’s how Chicago stopped us. They didn’t stop us by waiting until we got to the rim to challenge us (which is what we do, and only one of our guys does it well), they stopped us from getting into the positions we like (which is what some of our guys do well, and most of our guys don’t do so well).”
I agree we need a SF, PF or C that does this.
Marvin Williams is not the answer. Al Horford can play center if we get a Garnett or a Bogut or a Dejuan Blair even.
And Boston is out because Glen Davis is not to slow and I hesitate to say undersized but he is too slow and does not have the length or athleticism to erase mistakes.
Josh Smith bulking up to 250 is not the answer at PF unless we turn Marvin Williams into Lebron James. Otherwise Josh to SF, lose weight and preserve his knees. Horford needs a center.
“Challenging at the rim is a component of defense. Challenging shots all over the court, challenging positions, denying driving and passing lanes…that’s defense.
If all somebody is worried about is how well you challenge at the rim, then they’re missing the whole point: If that’s where you play defense all the time, then it’s a direct indicator that you are failing everywhere else on the court.”
exactly we have Josh trying to block shots like Dwight Howard. For all intents and purposes Smith is often our center. The only defense Atlanta has is Josh Smith.
“Asik has size, but is he bigger than Collins or Zaza?
“What we lack down low is fundamentals (Josh) and consistent heart (Al). I want the Al Horford of ‘07-’08, ‘08-’09, and ‘09-’10. That guy was a beast.”
Great player but he’s still the same jump shooter he’s always been. Of course he maybe could have driven more in the closeout game but it still stands this team needs help at the 4 or 5 and basically you’re telling Horford try harder while Marvin Williams gets a free pass and Smith has to be our Dwight Howard.
It’s disingenuous to think that this team has not peaked as currently constructed and needs more centers.
Magic Johnson
May 15th, 2011
7:57 pm
@Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
Marvin Williams 14ppg come at the expense of a low production rate. Marvin Williams would need to become Paul Pierce to justify playing him at the 3 for starter minutes.
This is not 2008 or 2009 Teams have become stacked in the Eastern Conference. He is a liability against elite teams as a starter. He does not do enough to mitigate funneling all our defensive mistakes to Josh and Al.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:02 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
I’ve often said over the last 3 years that I feel Al Horford is a hybrid player. He’s a PF who is capable of playing center. But you wouldn’t know that because you probably haven’t been around these blogs long enough. No big deal, no harm no foul.
But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you.
I didn’t say the Hawks aren’t small. Last I looked Zaza was 6′11 and 270, while Jason Collins is 7′0″ and 260 or so. My point is that the size itself isn’t the main problem. Mentality is.
The Hawks are small, but the bigger issue is that they PLAY small. Did it look to you like the Bulls dwarfed us out there? How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?
Ken Strickland
May 15th, 2011
8:10 pm
BIG RAY-I agree with you one the WE’RE TOO SMALL idea. We’re certainly bigger and taller than the Heat, who are in the conference finals.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:10 pm
Magic Johnson ,
Thanks for the correction on the height of Carlos Boozer.
You have NO idea how much I agree with your post.
No, Al is NOT supposed to be able to block everybody out. And yes, his only help tends to be Marvin “I’m the invisible ninja” Williams and Josh “I’ll never box out, but when I feel like it, I’ll outjump people for rebounds” Smith.
People don’t see Al boxing out and some of his so-called frontcourt teammates not getting the rebounds. They only see him not getting all of the rebounds (yet consistently leading the team in rebounding) and him not scoring 20 points per game.
The idea behind boxing out is that you keep the opposing team from getting offensive rebounds and ONE of your teammates gets the rebound, doesn’t matter who.
Horford boxes out well. Pachulia boxes out well. Joe does when he decides to get into the mix.
Few others on this team do this. Josh gets as many rebounds as he does because he is able to slide up next to guys (often without them noticing, because he is NOT fighting physically for position) and then outjumping them to the ball. He snatches rebounds out of the air. However, when guys put a body on him, it’s all over.
If Josh played like Gerald Wallace, he’d be an absolute terror on the boards. I kept thinking Josh would turn into Shawn Marion, but it never happened. Not only does the shorter Marion have superior rebounding stats in the prime of his career, but he also didn’t make his home crowd groan when he took jumpers. Why? Because Marion could and DID make them.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:15 pm
Ken ,
It’s an old refrain. I agree to adding more size, but only if it’s useful size. We look small because we play small. I ask again, how did we beat those big ol’ Magic, if we’re too small? Nobody wants to answer that one, it seems.
Well, mostly because JJ haters don’t want to admit that he did fairly well in that series, and Jamal haters hate to admit that he was our leading scorer.
Kirk Hinrich haters don’t want to think about the fact that he was our starting pg in that series.
Al Horford vs. Josh Smith guys don’t want to think about the Orlando series stats. Josh had 14 and 8 while Al had 12 and 10. Which was better? Who cares, both were adequate to win the series since JJ and Jamal were doing the heavy lifting on offense.
It was against Chicago that both guys failed.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:18 pm
By the way, how different would our collective view of this team be if the Hawks had done what Memphis did in winning Game 6 at home before going on the road and getting blown out in Game 7?
If nothing else, fans could hang their hats on the fact that the Hawks refused to give up ground on their own home court. We could even not feel too badly about hiding behind the fact that we lost to a team that hardly ever lost at home, a team that was #1 in our conference.
But….the barbs, jabs, and poison-tipped arrows would still be there for their favored targets. Losing game 7 just always looks and sounds better than losing 4-2. Just ask the Magic, who are right now (if they’re smart) working the phones to see just how much they can get for Dwight Howard in a sign and trade before he walks away in 2012.
JeJe
May 15th, 2011
8:31 pm
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
FIRE LD
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
8:49 pm
“Marvin averaged around 14ppg for 3 straight years at around 46% before Jamal and his 1000 shots a year came here…Marvin shot total dropped by 300 field goals”
If you judge a player based on points per game, you are right. Jamal’s arrival did cause Marvin’s points per game to decrease.
If you judge a player based on efficiency, Marvin right now is almost the exact same player he was as a rookie. The only fluctuation in any of his efficiency numbers results from the fact that a) he developed a pretty nice 3 point shot in his 4th season and b) that 3 point shot got worse over the last two seasons. Other than that, there is virtually no difference between Marvin the sixth-year player and Marvin the rookie other than how many shot attempts he gets. One could use that information to say that aside from developing a 3 point shot after Year 3, Marvin has not worked on his game at all as an NBA player.
Of course if Marvin gets more shot attempts he might average 20 a game, just like if Jason Collins gets enough shot attempts he could also average 20 a game. The question is whether he could do so without a dropoff in his efficiency. Everything he has shown as a player points to the answer to that question being no.
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
8:53 pm
@Big Ray “How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?”
Well, actually, when Drew woke up and started Twin, we were bigger, that’s how we won…Bass is maybe 6ft6..6ft7…Al is a little bigger..Josh is around 6ft7..Hedo is not a force on the boards, and basically is a guard…Collins is bigger than Howard, well, at least taller..your boy Woody was a complete idiot..We should have beat them last year, if he had played a center..
you also said this “But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you. ”
everyone on here had decided that Marvin is a bust, but if you go back and look at his stats after his rookie year, he was around 14 ppg shooting 45% or better..Also remember Marvin has had some of his best games while Joe was hurt..Why?…MORE SHOT ATTEMPTS..that’s all the kid needs..Drew, just like Woody insist on him being a catch and shoot type guy,, but he can drive and get to the line…He is more efficient than Josh is at the 3…When Jamal got here Marvin took 300 less shots that’s he dropped to 10ppg…
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
8:55 pm
Ken Strickland – touche
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
9:02 pm
A lesson in size:
The Pacers feature starting center Roy Hibbert, who is 278 lbs and stands 7′2″.
He averaged 10.4 ppg and 6.8 rebounds against the Bulls in round 1 of the playoffs.
Not impressed? You shouldn’t be. It was worse than either Smith or Horford.
There’s size, and then there’s ferocity. You tell ME how it was that Hibbert was unable to prevail against a team that featured not a single player who was as big as he was.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
9:05 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
So what are you telling me, that we need to get rid of anybody who will get in the way of Marvin’s shot attempts?
The only way Marvin scores 20 ppg is if he gets traded to the worst team in the League, and that’s if they don’t have a starting caliber small forward already.
That or do a brain transplant with Josh Smith. No wait. That won’t work. Because if that happens, Marvin will STILL be shooting from the outside and not driving to the hole.
Nevermind.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:06 pm
Big Ray
I have never been a big fan of Jor. Crawford
but, that efficiency rating,
surely had to do eith his abysmal shootin %.
As for feeling the need for the Hawks to add size;
I’ve been in that camp all along.
It’s more than shot-blocking,
but we need additional rebounding.
We are constantly at a disadvantage size wise against most teams.
Yes, there are exceptions…..Heat, Bulls,
but they also have some other components which we fail to have as well.
Yes Josh and Al can compete…But…another Big makes it more of a fair fight.
Rebounding and defense, plus having a legit post presence.
Final word, I’m convince we need more size and rebounding.
(obvious note, size with more than a modicum of ability)
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:07 pm
* convinced * with a “d”
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:09 pm
@Najeh Davenpoop
“Of course if Marvin gets more shot attempts he might average 20 a game, just like if Jason Collins gets enough shot attempts he could also average 20 a game. The question is whether he could do so without a dropoff in his efficiency. Everything he has shown as a player points to the answer to that question being no.”
I know we are talking about Marvin, but your post describes how I feel about Joe..he averaged 18ppg and it took him 16 shots to get those 18….Marvin, is a player that needs to have plays called for him, and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot, you can run him off screens or in the post also he never gets credit for playing solid D…Take away Josh’s Blocks and 20% success rate when he gambles for a steal, Marvin is a better defender than Josh…To me, Josh and Joe are the Hawks biggest problems, not Al, and Marvin…Oh yeah we could use a coach also…
O'Brien
May 15th, 2011
9:17 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer,
Marvin, is a player that needs to have plays called for him, and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot, you can run him off screens or in the post.
Marvin has been guarded in the post by smaller players on multiple occasions (Hinrich, Luke Ridnor etc). Have you seen him succesfully score against them? I havent.
When JJ gets double teamed, Marvin was the recipient of open shots. But he missed too many of them. And how do you explain Marvin shooting 39% from the field, and 27% from three in the playoffs, when Jamal and JJ were the focus of the defenses?
And how do explain Marviin averaging 2 rebounds per game in the playoffs?
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:20 pm
@Big Ray
lol, but if the guy averaged 14 ppg on 11 shots a game in 07-08, it should not be hard to believe that if he was able to put up 15spg he would average 20..your boy Joe Max was getting 18ppg on 16spg and never gets to the line….Also the in 07-08, I thought the Hawks were the 4th seed in the east?…People talk like Hawks are still a 15 win team, we have been final 8 the last 3 years.. We are almost there, we just need a CENTER so AL can move to PF, where he would be top 3 or 4 easily…..Amare,Blake…AL?
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:24 pm
Najeh
I’m tryin’ to respond / bog gobbler ?
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:25 pm
blog globber, bog globbler, blob goggler, bob gloggler, whatever ?
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer
May 15th, 2011
9:26 pm
@O’Brien
He barely played…and yes i admit, his shot was not falling, but how could you bash him before the 120 million man..He shot a cool 43% from the field..and last year it was 38%..See this is what I don’t get..WE HAVE A MAX CONTRACT GUY WHO NEVER SHOWS UP ..but i see more Marvin bashing than Joe bashing..The hometown hero shot 39% from the field…
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:28 pm
http://www.nba.com/statistics/
hawkfan
May 15th, 2011
9:28 pm
umm no marvin will be a 20 ppg scorer, hawks were 8th place in the east 07-08 when we faced the celtics, common that was our first time in the playoffs in a LONG time
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
9:32 pm
Najeh
http://www.nba.com/statistics/
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2011
9:38 pm
“and the best part about it, unlike Joe, He does not need to dribble the ball for 14 seconds to get his shot”
I often criticize Joe — rightfully so — for dribbling too much and taking too long to make a decision with the ball. But one thing Joe does have is a willingness to pass the ball, even if he takes too long to decide who will be the recipient of his passes. When has Marvin ever shown an ability or willingness to pass the ball? Other than Zaza and Mo Evans, Marvin had the lowest assist rate of any regular on the Hawks this year. If you are going to be an offensive focal point, you need to be able to hit the open man when your shot is not available.
“Take away Josh’s Blocks and 20% success rate when he gambles for a steal, Marvin is a better defender than Josh”
Granny, statements like this are why you are my favorite commenter on this blog. You and Rick Sund.
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
9:55 pm
IMHO there are only 2 cats on the current roster that i believe will do what it takes to make themselves better to make the team better…Teague and Hinrich. JT ’cause he’ s lookin to take the next steps and Kirk ’cause he’s always played like that thru his career. everybody else…NADA!!!
Joe…this is me as a leader…take it or leave it…sorry if the team needs more…
Josh…stops takin’ jumpers…WHY???…sorry if the team thinks i should post more…
Al…i’m a 4 and i want some more touches…i USED to be on a glass mission…
Marvin…i was paid for what i brought in the past…sorry if the team needs more…don’t really like bball anyway…
LD CANNOT change what these cats decide to give despite what some seem to think!!! the relationships have been established and they are NOT held accountable. why should they change??? why should any of these core cats change when they ARE gonna continue to get paid and they will continue to get PT. if losin’ by 25-30 pts does not change these guys, what will??? NOTHIN’ as it already exist within the organization will, that’s for sure!!!
as much as i enjoyed the lil’ playoff run, this team does NOT get past ORL if ORL was fieldin’ the same team from last season IMHO.
there is a MUCH different mindset that is needed on this team and i do NOT think any of the ‘core’ comes back with ‘that’ needed change next season!!! WHY SHOULD THEY???
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:06 pm
I love how Horford keeps shrinking and shrinking. By the time next season starts ( if we have a next season ), Al will be a 6 – 4 PF
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:21 pm
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
5:20 pm
KevinM
For those who cannot afford to pay attention…..
–this is on the house–
Al @ the [4] and Josh @ the [3]
Josh @ the [5] and Al @ the [2]
who really cares !
In motion offense, they move from pos to pos anyway.
when a team runs a play – they put players in position to score.
The run a play for Joe, they don’t run a play for the [2] guard.
(same all ’round)
Defensively they match up according to match-ups.
Al -vs- Boozer or Al -vs- Noah, not # -vs- #.
+ PLUS +…..We neede size and had Collins or Zaza in
much of the time.
Would you prefer Al @ the [5]…Josh @ the [4]…
with…Collins / Zaza @ the [3]…would that satisfy all you folks ?
***********************
As a former coach, you know that a player has ( or can have ) different responsibilities, depending on what position he plays.
When Horford plays the 5 and Smith plays the 4, who should play down on the blocks? Our 2 ( seeing that JJ may arguably be our best post player )?
I mean, that’s the imbalance this teams faces. It isn’t necessarily what position they play, but how they play when they play that position. Both Smith and Horford would rather play on the outside. But we need somebody to play on the inside.
Al is perceived to be stronger than Josh. This is why he plays the 5. So when he plays the 5 against bigger players, he can’t play them like when he’s playing a 4 . . whom may take him out on the perimeter a little more ( like how Bass and Boozer did ).
Al defending the 5 means that he’ll have to defend around the rim a lot more, seeing that on most occasions, our 4 ( Smith ) is not going to be matched up against the bigger center.
Smith at the 3 means that he has to defend SFs who can shoot or slash. Smith at the 4 means that he’ll be defending PFs that can either post up or shoot midrange jumpers.
So while you are correct in some aspects, you can’t just overlook the position a person plays on the floor.
In other news, it’s nice to see Chicago defensively dominate Miami in this 2nd half. It doesn’t make us look as bad, but makes Chicago look better.
Worldwide Clyde
May 15th, 2011
10:21 pm
*yawn*
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:26 pm
@ Ken Strickland . . . nice to have you back.
And I will admit that from at least what I saw in the Chicago series, you were right about Teague. I guess like Drew, I was expecting Teague to just take control of the PG spot and leave no doubt as to who should be getting the most minutes there. I think Teague was very comfortable alongside JJ, because the attention JJ receives opens up the lane for Teague. And once Teague got the floater going, he really looked good.
So at least for the moment, I’m glad that you were right and I was wrong. Let’s just hope he can play like this next season, and finally put to rest on this team needing a PG.
Rusty
May 15th, 2011
10:28 pm
Big ray how can you say jc2 is a worse defender than mb, where do you get such nonsense,did you pull that out your butt. Everybody knows that Washington is not that strong of a team. They certainly got the better of the deal.
northcyde
May 15th, 2011
10:34 pm
Big Ray
May 15th, 2011
8:02 pm
Marvin will be a 20ppg scorer ,
I’ve often said over the last 3 years that I feel Al Horford is a hybrid player. He’s a PF who is capable of playing center. But you wouldn’t know that because you probably haven’t been around these blogs long enough. No big deal, no harm no foul.
But let me tell YOU a secret – Marvin Williams never WAS a 20 ppg scorer and never WILL BE . Everybody knows that…except you.
I didn’t say the Hawks aren’t small. Last I looked Zaza was 6′11 and 270, while Jason Collins is 7′0″ and 260 or so. My point is that the size itself isn’t the main problem. Mentality is.
The Hawks are small, but the bigger issue is that they PLAY small. Did it look to you like the Bulls dwarfed us out there? How did we beat that bigger Orlando squad?
************************
100% Co-sign
Roddy
May 15th, 2011
10:41 pm
I think we need to follow the San Antonio blueprint when they Had David Robinson and that other guy from Wake Forest. Can’t think of his name right now. We need to trade Smoove and/or JJ to get Dwight Howard. He and Al would be together. We have Teague and Hinrick at the point. Just need a few defenders who can shoot threes.
SteveW
May 15th, 2011
11:02 pm
I guess realistically ATL has for next season:
Horford
JJ
Josh
Kirk
Marvin
ZaZa
Teague
Sy
Hoping they re-sign:
Collins
Wilkens
That’s 10 players
Wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t re-sign:
Rolle
Armstrong
And then with our 2nd pick get Isaiah Thomas out of Washington, or another PG.
That’s 13 players the cheapest way possible, with Sy, Rolle, and this years 2nd pick receiving 2nd round money.
Sound about right for ASG
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
11:03 pm
too funny…on GONE FISHIN’ after the CHI/MIA game they had Joe with a t-shirt that read OVERPAID!!!
mykhalc
May 15th, 2011
11:05 pm
actually as a fan…it’s sad!!!
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
11:15 pm
northcyde
“Smith at the 3 means
that he has to defend SFs who can shoot or slash”
If by saying that by playing the [3]
were assuming Al & [let's say] Zaza are in the game as well,
then yes.
Two points here:
(1) Josh has done a great job defending [3's] this yr [opinion]
(2) It has nothing to do with where Josh wishes to shoot the ball
or where he takes his shots, nor would that matter were he listed
as a [5] for that matter.
A player can play center on offense and guard a non-center on def.
Those were my greater points.
For that matter Josh should most probably be our [5]
in a small line-up and Al a [4] by everyone’s definition.
(see my Al Downing story)
Josh is more a center than Al.
Josh is longer and can jump higher.
Offensively he is better in the post than Al and
should be in there anyway.
Alot of folks get caught up in the semantics
of B-ball terminology or coach-speak and
occasionally fail to realize the nuances within.
Grandad
May 15th, 2011
11:18 pm
Whomever posted the Josh & Teague
–for–
Steph Curry & Biedrins trade
–I’m in–
Curry is an emerging star.
We would and still need to trade back into the 1st round.
E43
May 15th, 2011
11:29 pm
No. The hawks need to build this team from what they have and stop doing all this wishful thinking. Lets not forget that the hawks were built based on Detroit’s championship team of interchangeable parts. Now we don’t have childress and Marvin and Smith trade talks have only gotten bigger. And that’s without even touching on the argument of Al horford the POWER FORWARD playing at center. They need to be able to line up and play before they even get to how to play the game. 6000 possible rotations just doesn’t cut it.
hawks4life
May 15th, 2011
11:55 pm
i dont like the idea of trading smoove. He has so much potential, and our team would lack defense and no one can get the crowd on their feet like he does. He needs LD to stop being so nice,,,and convince him that shooting threes is not acceptable. (granted, that would probably never happen). I think if trading Horford is at all possible, it should be done. He is playing out of postion and has a ton of potential if he played power forward.That point could be used as a selling point to other teams. He also brings great energy to the team