Atlanta Hawks: ‘Alternative present’ appealing?
At Hoopinion, Bret LaGree uses his Cavs game recap to imagine how Hawks fans might have accepted a team without Joe Johnson:
Last night might have been a glimpse of an alternative present, one where the Hawks, at 12:01am on July 1, 2010, did not immediately offer Joe Johnson every cent they possibly could. A present where the Hawks, following a sober assessment of their current state and future options, chose to take a chance on their young frontcourt, trusted their fan base to accept short-term mediocrity as part of a bid for long-term relevance, and let someone else be the highest bidder for Joe Johnson’s thirties.
Last night’s Hawks game doesn’t prove anything about anything and I acknowledge that this alternative present I envisioned assumed some manner of Mike Bibby disposal to remain a pleasant thought. But say the Hawks had sold the 2010-11 season on the basis of the future. Imagine a 2010-11 season wherein the Hawks still extended Al Horford to a reasonable deal, either got rid of Bibby in some fashion or just played Jeff Teague anyway, looked forward to the options inherent in Jamal Crawford’s expiring contract coming off the books, struggled mightily against good teams, and beat up on bad teams.
It would, I suspect, be, empirically, much like this team. The difference would be the path taken to achieve similar results and if that path frequently included nights like this . . . would the Hawks be significantly worse off in terms of short-term perception? Would the future seem, if not more hopeful, at least less sadly certain?
Of course all of this assumes the Hawks would have a) received some useful players/assets in a sign-and-trade for J.J. and/or wisely used the cap space left over after his departure; b) done the same with Jamal; and c) used whatever assets the team acquired in such a way as to build a team that provided fans real hope for the future. Considering the team’s recent history of drafting, player evaluation, and resource allocation (both in terms of money and player roles), there would be some understandable skepticism about the prospects for such a scenario bearing fruit.
Still, I do think it’s a vision ASG could have sold to fans without much trouble. Normally teams that let their best player walk face a potential backlash. But J.J. (or really any of the current “core” outside of Al) wasn’t popular after last spring’s surrender to Orlando. The Hawks could have leveled with their fans and told them while the team may not have been as good this season without J.J. it still could make the playoffs (and, if not, get a lottery pick).
Then the Hawks could have gone about the process of turning J.J., Jamal, and any of their beloved “core” into a group that plausibly would be better next season than in 2010-11. All the while the Hawks could have whispered that they plan to make an all-out run at Dwight or CP3 in the summer of 2012 because ASG knows you need a top 5-10 player to win a title and will pay the tax for that chance. Failing that, the Hawks could have built a team that truly follows the Detroit model and includes tough-minded, defensive-focused players while still looking for opportunities to acquire a top 5 player or luck up into drafting one.
Instead, ASG found itself in the curious position of giving J.J. the richest contract in the league, in direct contradiction to its (unfair) cheap image, and getting ripped for it. The criticism increased when they failed to follow that bold move with others and settled into a familiar stasis. Now the Hawks are a mess with the playoffs to begin soon.
Their attendance has sagged. As LeGree points out, their esteem in the eyes of fans has declined both among those who are casual and not interested in the Hawks as entertainment, and those who are serious and stay loyal to the team but are dismayed because they saw this coming and now have little hope for future improvement.
So, even if you are skeptical that the Hawks could have competently embraced LeGree’s J.J.-less “alternative present” and then made smart moves for the future I’m sure they could have sold the plan. It turns out that would have been better than what they are selling right now.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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111 comments Add your comment
O'Brien
March 29th, 2011
10:32 am
MC,
I was on board with resigning JJ, mainly because I had no confidence in the ASG and Rick finding a way to rebuild on the fly.
But I think fans would have been ok with the Hawks doing a SNT for JJ. Not only did he not play well after game 4 of the Bucks series, but he also said he didnt care if fans showed up or not to watch them against Orlando.
And with an expiring contract in Jamal, and a well sought after piece in JJ, Rick would have had options, and could probably have gotten some picks thrown in.
Anways, I dont necessarily think keeping JJ was a mistake. I think the mistake was promoting Woody’s assistant, and not shaking up the core.
wesleywhatwhat
March 29th, 2011
10:34 am
NEVER should have signed joe johnson to a max deal.
FullSpeed
March 29th, 2011
10:35 am
You guys got 2 hear this!! Go hawks!!
http://limelinx.com/files/f23b836cb81bcfa2684cc73c6a3e328a
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
10:38 am
There’s actually an article stating that Williams and Crawford could be key to 1st round upset. Atlanta wouldn’t beat ANY of the teams in the playoffs, much less Orlando. Team is just garbage.
Please Get Out Joe.
March 29th, 2011
10:40 am
Hey whats new, JJ is getting paid, why should he care about winning. This team absolutely sucks, keep Smith and Horford and cut the rest. That would be a big improvement over what we have now. And Drew is a terrible coach, would have rather had Woody if I knew that was the direction they were going to take. What a complete group of morons running that team. At least we got that going for us. We have the best morons running our team in the country!
dstdeelite
March 29th, 2011
10:45 am
Moot
Michael Cunningham
March 29th, 2011
10:46 am
“MC, I was on board with resigning JJ, mainly because I had no confidence in the ASG and Rick finding a way to rebuild on the fly.”
i think they could have plausibly sold it as something short of a full rebuild. they still would have Josh, Al and Jamal.
HawksGoingBackward
March 29th, 2011
10:48 am
@ Michael Cunningham
A few weeks ago I posted a response asking why the Hawks would take a player like Marvin Williams with the #2 overall pick and immediately put him in a role players position. I argued that by not trading Joe Johnson and therefore leaving him in place as the alpha dog on the team that Marvin would never mature properly and thus his present state is what you are left with.
I give you the Seattle Supersonics as an example. With the #2 overall pick and a talented but developing guy named Kevin Durant to be chosen they did what you should do when taking a player with his talent and TEMPERAMENT. They traded Ray Allen a still very good hall of fame sharp shooter who has since won a championship.
What would have happened had they kept Ray Allen? Would it have stumped the growth of Kevin Durant, most certainly, and you wouldnt have the Jeff Green turned Kendrick Perkins pick.
But I dont wanna say that Marvin would be on par or better than Kevin Durant but its more than fair to say that he would be better than he is right now considering how much better he plays when Joe Johnson isnt on the floor. And the Hawks as a team would easily be in atleast the exact same position with more flexibility and possibly playing with more developed leadership.
That situation playing out is way to much to ask from ASG. That type of foresight only comes from legit business people with a model for winning which the ASG has proven to be devoid of. I for one am a Marvin supporter and find it unfortunate that he gets the “rap” that he has been given, he was supposed to be the premier player on this team ala Kevin Durant, but he was robbed and shoved in the backup role.
The exact same thing can be said about Jeff Teague but thats for another post.
Boring
March 29th, 2011
10:48 am
It doesn’t matter. The ownership doesn’t give two Varsity chili dogs for this team. I’m DONE watching them. I was done watching Josh Smith heave up 3 pointers and the coach doing NOTHING about it. Stinks.
HawksGoingBackward
March 29th, 2011
10:50 am
@ Michael Cunningham
Possible SNT scenario:
Joe Johnson to the Mavericks for Caron Butler and Brendon Haywood. Mark Cuban would jump through a fire hoop for a chance to get what everyone thought Joe Johnson to be, Brendan Haywood and Carons expiring contract would have been the least they would have given up to get Joe.
Your thoughts?
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
10:52 am
The ONLY way to fix this team is trade JJ..even if you take a step back for a couple years. Of course, that will never happen. Send him to NJ or NYC and get whatever you can…doesn’t matter. Just dump him and start over. Again, will never happen.
julius
March 29th, 2011
11:00 am
FIRE THE COACH HE STINKS
JeJe
March 29th, 2011
11:13 am
FIRE LD
FIRE WOODY
FIRE JOE
Section 303
March 29th, 2011
11:13 am
God…..this makes me sick. The Hawks will regret that Joe Johnson contract for years to come. The sad thing is, the ASG does not realize it. They still think they made the right move. That’s what we’re dealing with….a group of morons.
And, wouldn’t be refreshing to have an ownership group that talked reality to fans, instead of trying to push a bunch of b#llsh#t through? If they would had said the things above (in Michael’s blog) I’m betting most would have understood. Besides, I was there. Joe Johnson walked off the court with the entire arena booing him. No one would have been that upset had they not re-signed him.
Rufus1
March 29th, 2011
11:15 am
Joe creates his problems…
Joe gets plenty of very good open looks but he waits for the defender, so he can take a more difficult shot….CRAZY!
I also think the pressure of this contract is too heavy for him. He isn’t an “Alfa Dog”, but he has an “Alfa Dog” contract. If the Hawks fail, it is his fault, because he took the contract.
NagoyaHawk
March 29th, 2011
11:17 am
JJ’s just not into this year. I agree that we should have shipped him last year. But things really seemed so bleak without him. Little did we know that it would end up much worse.
Dr. W.
March 29th, 2011
11:25 am
Question.
You and another guy have won an NBA contest. The two of you will be coaches in a one-game winner-take-all contest, with a prize of one million dollars to the winning coach. Your players are to be chosen from the rosters of the Atlanta Hawks and Boston Celtics.
Each of you will get 5 players and 5 players only.
You win a coin flip and get to pick first. By pick first, I mean you get to pick all five of your players before the other guy gets any.
Question: How many Hawks will you choose?
Sautee
March 29th, 2011
11:27 am
Rufus,
More like an Omega dog, IMO.
Jerry West
March 29th, 2011
11:27 am
I’ve often wondered about a scenario in which Joe walked, but like many other fans, was worried about how the Hawks would replace him (like say overpaying John Salmons for a multiyear deal).
But if ever the ASG could have saved some money and looking good while doing it, letting Joe go last summer would’ve been the time. Monumental sweep by the Magic, in which your star player pisses off the fanbase (and doesn’t play well), it woulda been an easy PR win.
But that would’ve been “too much like right” for this franchise.
newkid
March 29th, 2011
11:32 am
HawksGoingBackward,
Good thoughts in your 10:48 am post.
Perhaps an alternative view of the JJ signing is one in which Sund saw/sees JJ as the chip he needs to get the ‘big fish’ he covets in summer of ‘11 or ‘12. Maybe the plan was to ‘retain’ the chip (even at an unreasonable long-term cost) long enough to parlay it into that coveted top ten player. Maybe Sund saw that the coveted top ten player wasn’t available during the summer of ‘10, but might be available in ‘12. Maybe the JJ signing was about ‘holding your water’ until the right opportunity presented itself. Sund’s history strongly suggests that – with very few exceptions – his light doesn’t shine that bright, so perhaps these are fairly LARGE ‘maybees’.
I’ve posited that the Nets MUST have a major injection of talent to complement DWill as they enter the new arena in Brooklyn in ‘12. The world now knows that money is no object for the Russian, and that the Nets are well-positioned – salary cap wise – to take on another huge salary. JJ is potentially the complement the Nets target for ‘12, and maybe there is a way to turn this possibility into a part of the ingredients required to get D12, who I think will opt out of Orlando. Not only will he opt out, he’ll be in a position – similar to Melo – to identify his next destination.
Why Atlanta? Well there are at least a few reasons. 1st: Home, parents, friends, the rock upon which his life is built. 2nd: Last year he reportedly fired his agent and estabiished an entity managed by his family and friends to manage his affairs (a la LeBron). 3rd: Did you know that his lady friend is an upstart in the music business? Is their a better city – professionally speaking – for a fledgling vocalist than Atlanta? 4th: He’s a huge personality and needs/deserves a big stage. The team (currently without a real ‘face’ and personality) and the city provide that stage. No need to share with the Kobes, the Melos, the Amare’s, and the like when Hawks personnel demonstrably ready for downstage supporting role.
James on Pharr Rd
March 29th, 2011
11:36 am
Michael, what say you to the notion of rebuilding with a new old timer style coach? He could be Coach/GM I kind of like Larry Brown. Its identity and balance that we really need.
Tee
March 29th, 2011
11:38 am
@newkid, it’s nice to dream. Not to mention, he was best man at Josh Smith’s wedding.
Worldwide Clyde
March 29th, 2011
11:41 am
From The Last Blog:
“what jordan crawford has proven thus far is he is a gunner without a conscious.” -Doc
Jamal Crawford is exactly the same. There have been many times Jamal has shot us out of the game. Me I’d rather have Jordan Crawford because he’s on a rookie salary.
Worldwide Clyde
March 29th, 2011
11:44 am
Joe Johnson does not want to play for the Hawks. The only reason he’s here is because of the money. When the Heat came to town a couple of weeks ago Lebron and Dwade put on a show but Joe Johnson laid down and quit.
FIRE LD
FIRE SUND
O'Brien
March 29th, 2011
11:44 am
MC,
True, because if the Hawks had traded JJ, they would still be competing for a playoff spot (imo).
One of the proposals that the blog discussed over the offseason was a SNT to Chicago. Hawks get Kirk Hinrich, Taj Gibson, and filler for JJ. We could have started Kirk and Jamal in the backcourt, while Bibby and Gibson comes off the bench with Mo Evans, Jordan Crawford, ZaZa and whichever wing we signed, and maybe we could have used the MLE to bring in somebody else.
And we could have probably worked out a SNT deal with the Knicks too (look at all the pieces they gave up to Denver).
But the rumor was the ASG didn’t mind giving JJ the contract, because they don’t plan on owning the team by the time JJ gets to year 4, so he will become somebody else’s problem.
Newkid,
I think Dwight ends up in LA. Howard for Bynum and fillers.
Brian
March 29th, 2011
11:46 am
ahhh…..Jordan Crawford is averaging like 20 a game with the Wizards. Another great move!
Trojan
March 29th, 2011
11:50 am
MC: Great blog, great writing.
The key to this whole discussion is the wish there was an actual “plan” to team. Why aren’t we one of those teams gearing up for Dwight Howard? We need to build toward an identity, not hope one apprears.
We need a long term plan.
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
11:52 am
Connect the DOTS,lalala……………
WAS NOT THE GM IN SEATTLE THE INFAMOUS RICK SUND????????????
I REST MY CASE……YAWN
10,9,8,7,6……TILL HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM????
PREDICTION: ORLANDO IN 4……………..SHOOT…………..
SHOTS WILL STOP FALLIN……………UH OH……………..
Undisputed Champ!
March 29th, 2011
11:57 am
Like Bibby Joe has represent this franchise well, however he has held Marvin Williams back. Trade Joe if you can find a taker for that salary, Add horford too. Lets go wlth Marvin and Josh. Go after Chris Paul and Plug in a Bynum and Nene. Its time to move forward and change the direction the hawks are moving in. Get rid of Drew. Firing Woodson was a Big mistake, but it is what it is. Lets up grade the post and the coaches position.
And please FIRE SUND!
Trojan
March 29th, 2011
11:57 am
Another issue with this team is the fact that no matter how hot we could possibly get in the playoffs, this team had peaked as presently constructed and coached.
MAJOR CHANGES are needed. I hope Sund never uses the word core again.
cazz7
March 29th, 2011
11:59 am
The IQ of this team is at a loss, team has obviouisly been drafting and free agent signing on talent where the better teams are focused on high IQ players. This is not intended to be a slap at the team concept just the reality of it is what it is; cant win with this team as it is. The guard they recently got is a true point; but do they even know what that is?
James on Pharr Rd
March 29th, 2011
12:00 pm
And JJ to Dallas has very many likely scenarios that make both teams better.JJ is a top 15 player in the league, but we may have to consider building from a different starting block. My personal take is we should dump all salaries save for Al and Josh (if possible). Get those guys 18-23 shots a game, and work towards high draft picks, identity building, and salary flexibility.We can make another run in 2013/14
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
12:00 pm
New Ownership is the key to righting the ship..Kick Sund and LD to the curb. Then start to dismantle this sorry core and beef up the bench….
Al for NENE
Josh for Rudy Gay
Marvin and Kirk for Dwill
Dream on ………………….why not?
Joey
March 29th, 2011
12:01 pm
JJ is the Hawks’ best player?
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
12:03 pm
Woody sucked…………in 6 yrs he was over 100 games below .500………….Scrub………………….
His assistant is well on his way too…………….
Big-Mike
March 29th, 2011
12:08 pm
Why did we get rid of the coach for his backup and then throw the same guys on the floor expecting
change??Signing JJ is like getting rid of Nique in the late 80’s…We could have traded Marvin and Josh 4 a real bigman that could rebound and be a defenses present in the paint…Nobody respect
Atl in the paint….Then went after a real muti-million dollar man….Joe can get his shot…A real
star can get his shot when he want it or when your team need a score…This year has been a waste..
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
12:12 pm
repeat New OWNERSHIP is key to righting this sinking stinking ship!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then throw out the trash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
12:12 pm
There is NO NEED to move Al Horford. None at all. Atlanta needs to get rid of JJ, let Jamal go, and if there is ANY decent center in the draft, even if they have to trade up to do it, regardless the cost, move up to draft and develop him. Then Al can play his natural position, even if the center is average to above average, that’s all ATL needs, and if Smoove doesn’t like playing the 3, then he can go also. I’m a huge fan of his, but I’m tired of waiting for him to grow up and act like a man, instead of a 5 year old.
Oh wait, we traded our no.1 draft pick in next year’s draft for Hinrich. So, another boring off-season and 2011-2012 season of mediocrity??? THAT IS REALITY. Sorry all, I was living in Never Never Land for a little while.
The Game Has Changed
March 29th, 2011
12:13 pm
@Undisputed Truth-How in the world is Joe holding Marvin back. Get real. Chris Paul is not the sure answer. What has he done in the playoffs except get burned by bigger and stronger point guards. He hasnt even been to the finals with the great team he had a couple of years ago. Bynum is not called upon to do much because of his surrounding cast as well as Nene. Both are better than what we have but they are not game changers.
vava74
March 29th, 2011
12:14 pm
If not signing JJ meant more Jamal on the floor, then the alternative reality of the Cavs game would have be us battling them to see who would finish with more than 15 wins.
A combination of “NO JJ” with “LD on the bench” is spelled “lottery”.
This is true even in light of JJ’s horrible year.
People forget that even so he is averaging 18.5ppg 4.1rpg and 4.9apg in 35 mpg (less 3 mpg than last year) whilst playing at worst “decent” and most of the time “well above average” D.
J.J.M
March 29th, 2011
12:18 pm
*yawns* lets see them play agains a ELITE team without joe not none of these scrub teams
NCBravesFan
March 29th, 2011
12:18 pm
The Hoopinion piece and this post are good reminders of what was feared by many fans heading into the season – that by re-signing/maxing Joe and then not adding to the roster otherwise, the Hawks were putting the roster into a box.
The real surprise this year is that JJ’s performance has declined significantly in year one of the deal. We should all hope that’s a function of coaching or some sort of injury, and not the beginning of a career decline.
Either way, the risk/reward curve of the off-season strategy the ASG pursued never seemed to make a lot of sense.
The Game Has Changed
March 29th, 2011
12:18 pm
@Big-Mike-The only other descent shooting guard that was a free agent was Rudy Gay. Is he better than Joe. Maybe, maybe not but his contract is similar to Joe. But Rudy has never led his team to the second round. Wade was not leaving and Kobe was unavailable. So that leaves ASG with a decision to rebuild or resign and Im glad they resigned. Joe is our leader as well as Horford. We need him to play better but he is still a top 6 or 7 shooting guard.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
12:20 pm
I think I have made it clear how I feel about J.J. (see number2sucks.com or twitter.com/number2sucks). And yes I would have more easily bought an alternative plan because it would have shown guts. The kind of ballsiness that can attempt to sniff a title. Not what we have it the cowardly ASG of our true present.
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
12:20 pm
Here’s the problem for the one’s who love defending JJ…and this, at least in my humble opinion, says it all. When you get a MAX CONTRACT, YOU BETTER BE A DOMINATING PLAYERS. I could care less about double teams and defenses rolling to you…Kobe/LeBron/Howard/Durant, even Carmelo can dominate a game. They make a decision and stick with it. It may not always be right, but they trust and believe in theirself…JJ does NONE OF THAT! He’s way overpaid. He actually should be in prison for stealing money.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
12:22 pm
@the game has changed
How can Joe be a top 6 or 7 shooting guard in the league when there have been times you had to wonder if he was the best 2 on the team? Lest you forget Jamal has lit it up many a night here in Atlanta.
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
12:23 pm
IQ has nothing to do with basketball..Heck former president bubba reportedly has tested with a 91 and he stole/I mean was voted in twice???????? WTF?????????????? Its about knowledge and common sense, the will to overcome adversity and of course great coaching. Which this franchise has not had in years…..
vava74
March 29th, 2011
12:24 pm
And yes Jamal, if you are reading me, you are that BAD. Wonderful individual talent, horrible team player.
For once you should try to play some D during a whole game and then for a series of 5 games.
Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of basketball knows that your lack of D negates 9 out 10 times your offense.
A small example? Against CLE Gibson scored 10 of his 11 points with you playing lazy *ss D on him (actually, no D at all) and at a given point, 4 possessions you:
Let Gibson score two 3 pointers at will;
Dribbled yourself into a TO;
Killed a fast break after catching a pass from Teague and, instead of driving to hole whilst CLE defenders were still back pedaling, went for your “bicycle hop-step dribble”.
This is the NBA, not the Globetrotters.
After this 4 possession sequence, our lead went from 14 to 6.
I know its a bit late for an old dog to learn new tricks, but we can hope.
I think you are not a bad character and that you simply can’t help yourself.
But the harsh reality is that in a ball club with real aspirations to make a splash in the playoffs your game would not warrant more than 10-20 minutes per game, depending on match ups and production (and never at the PG slot, but that is not your fault).
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
12:24 pm
And Joe is not “a leader”. Al Horford took over that role. A leader speaks up/out to “his team”. It’s never been Joe Johnson’s team. He just happened to be their best scorer.
Ryan
March 29th, 2011
12:25 pm
On about 25 shots a game though…..
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
12:26 pm
All these people defending Joe need to remember one thing, He and his max Koncak (see what I did there) are the overriding reason the Hawks will not be more than they are right now for the foreseeable future. This albatross has doomed the team to purgatory. It will NOT be championship caliber. And we will continue to go to the playoffs and get smacked around year after year. A playoff pushover is what we are.
Slimjr
March 29th, 2011
12:28 pm
I agree with vava74 without ISO JJ, this team is a lottery pick this year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Duh………..Who would step up Marvin,Josh or Al?? Dream on……………………………………
cp
March 29th, 2011
12:29 pm
there were a lot of people on here who thought the Hawks should have went in that direction. the probkem is that there is no sort of plan from the ownership or front office.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
12:31 pm
No one seems to get it….People say without JJ the team would be lottery bound…I say that’s is exactly where they should be because what we see night in and night out is worse. You either trying to win a championship or you are rebuilding. Being inbetween is ripping off the fans.
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
12:32 pm
Here’s a fun number about JJ….in 39 games…I’LL SAY THAT AGAIN…39 GAMES he didn’t break the 20 point mark. That’s from a “max player”.
dmr
March 29th, 2011
12:34 pm
Contrary to comments made by M. Gearon, Jr. more than once. The fans actually do understand, they do know what is going on, and they are smarter than the Ownership. I hate to harp on the past, but the ASG have given us no vision to the future.
Everyone knew the Hawks needed a point guard when they passed on Chris Paul. Everyone knew signing Joe Johnson to a max deal was not going to result in a major upgrade for this team, nor would it lead to better playoff results.
In the end, the Hawks are as irrelevant as say “VCU in the NCAA Tournament”! Oh wait, I’m sorry. VCU is relevant; just not the Atlanta Hawks.
RealSquawk
March 29th, 2011
12:37 pm
Mr. Phil – Bingo!!!!
Also its not like Joe has been the best player on the team this season. He hasn’t and only for about two or three weeks could he hold that mantle. He has also only led this team in scoring 24 times this season. That my friends is a problem.
I don’t think we are a lottery team without him either. I do think we are lottery team moving forward with him.
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
12:43 pm
Just thinking out loud here…but I would love to see LD do the following…and I’m sure he knows he’s gone after this season. But just in case, make a point…make a stand. Bench JJ for the rest of the season. I know it sounds crazy..but the Hawks aren’t beating anyone in a 7 game series anyway. How AWESOME would that be. To see him just sitting on the bench. It would HOPEFULLY do 2 things:
1. Light a fire under that idiot’s ***
2. Send a message to the ASG what a horrible mistake they made.
And if nothing else…would be EXTREMELY entertaining!!!!
RealSquawk
March 29th, 2011
12:45 pm
vava74 – you should turn some of that vile you have for Jamal into some objective thinking about the role Joe Johnson plays on this team.
RealSquawk
March 29th, 2011
12:49 pm
One more thing – When Marvin gets the touches he gets to the line like a top player in the league should
Geemack
March 29th, 2011
12:52 pm
Michael Cunningham
You do a great job at covering all angels of the Hawks, and not just the favorable ones.
Now if we can just get a basketball team that’s this good.
tremaine
March 29th, 2011
12:54 pm
I did not want them to waist all that money on Joe especially after what he said in the Orlando series. I did expect them to resign him because as a longtime Hawks fan, I am use to management making the wrong decisions.
tremaine
March 29th, 2011
12:55 pm
SAD!!!
Geemack
March 29th, 2011
12:59 pm
Mr. Phil
As an Atlanta fan you should be used to it.
My suggestion is get a second team on the the west coast, that way you don’t have to root against the Hawks.
You can enjoy the pleasures of winning, and still support the home team.
It’s worked for me since 83. I’ve learned to love the Lakers as much as I love the Hawks.
ole richie
March 29th, 2011
1:00 pm
al horford is the only player on the team worth keeping
Peter
March 29th, 2011
1:01 pm
Ok what do you think the fans should think after the famous statement from JJ he doesn’t care if the fans show up ?
That should have been the statement that let JJ walk from Atlanta.
The fans have just reacted to his statement, and over all attitude of the organization.
The ownership group really is bad, from the top to the bottom…..thus the Max contract, the decline in the team, and attendance.
This team will only get worse.
Big-Mike
March 29th, 2011
1:02 pm
I`m not saying JJ is not all bad…he needs a counter part that poses a real threat…Playoff time you better rebound and get some easy scores off second and third chances…ask Boston…LA killed them on the boards after Kobe horrible shooting…We get one crack at it 80% of the time…throw
in no midrange game from Josh and Marvin and Mr.P ..No real shooter to get the defense from
packing in the lane…….We cant beat no-one off the dribble …shoooot we’ve been lucky to win at all.
JeJe
March 29th, 2011
1:08 pm
Wow @ Vava74. Bringing the heat today!
Gotta agree though. Jamal was my boy last year, but this year he is not finishing at the basket, he’s had way too many Mike Bibby games statistically, and has not controlled the offense. HE SAID WHEN JOINING THE TEAM THAT PEOPLE DON’T REALIZE HOW GOOD OF A PASSER HE IS. SO WHY IS HE FREEZING UP AS PG
Rufus1
March 29th, 2011
1:10 pm
“When Marvin gets the touches he gets to the line like a top player in the league should”-RealSquawk
He is the only one not afraid to get fouled.
MistaGamer
March 29th, 2011
1:19 pm
@Rufus1:
You’ve summed up perfectly what I said would be the biggest problem with the on-the-court (and I believe off-the-court as well, although no player would go there) of this team if we signed Joe to a max deal. And, I believe it has played out as expected.
Joe got an “Alpha Dog” contract and he’s no “Alpha Dog”. He doesn’t play like one, he doesn’t lead like one, and he doesn’t carry himself like one. Just think of what that deal did to undermine this team both on the court and economically.
Trojan
March 29th, 2011
1:21 pm
Poll Question: How many of you Hawks fans get excited when you see the headline, “Joe Johnson to play tonight after the injury…..”.
I am not. It’s almost a downer to me.
ILL-Logical
March 29th, 2011
1:33 pm
MC: The story is alternately subversive; promissory and slightly irreverent in tone. Interesting. In fact, save for your gratuitous ASA reference ,it’s quite good.
AB
March 29th, 2011
1:36 pm
One thing that I think a lot of people miss is the fact that if we had not signed JJ, then who would you get. JJ is not only here to make our team better, but he is here to attract other free agents that are looking for a team. I hear people say CP3 and Dwight Howard…why would either of them even think about coming to a team that is rebuilding when there are championship contenders begging them to come. Our best hope is to keep Joe, continue developing our supporting players and get a big man in here so that everyone is playing the correct position. Anything other than that is fantasy.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
1:44 pm
@ ab “JJ is not only here to make our team better, but he is here to attract other free agents that are looking for a team.”
JJ couldnot attract ants if his face was covered with honey. Other players don’t take him seriously. Remember the snickering from Paul Pierce when Joe got selected to the all star game the second time. Please.
No team is going to play with JJ with this coach and with this ownership for any reason other than cold hard cash. Something ASG is sorely lacking.
vava74
March 29th, 2011
1:44 pm
Realsquawk,
I posted a reply but the blog monster ate it.
In a nutshell:
I am not happy with JJ’s season and not happy with the fact that he sulks and disappears.
But even blog favorite Al does the same, playing like a sissy when he gets frustrated or there is too much beef down low.
But I know why JJ is not playing well: he is fed up with LD and fed up with how he rewards Smoove and Jamal – who play recklessly and without discipline.
JJ is the #3 SG in the league. Even today, given his ability to defend as well as he attacks.
DC
March 29th, 2011
1:45 pm
I understand the gripe about JJ, however I do not think he is the complete problem nor the solution. My biggest issue with JJ is that he does not seem to play hard are shoot like he wants to hit.
My biggest issue with the team as hold is: JS, LD & RS oh and the ASH too.
Who told JS he is jump shooter or point guard? LD has no clue and was not ready to be a head coach, RS just doesn’t have the money backing him up in his decsions and I am pleading with the ASG to sell the team.
DC
March 29th, 2011
1:45 pm
Issues with the team as a whole, sorry my typo.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
1:48 pm
excuse…i meant no star player wants to play with JJ.
DC
March 29th, 2011
1:49 pm
@VAVA74 – you make a great point. I seriously think this team does not get along with each other overall. They do not have that relationship like a Lebron, D-Wade and Bosh or Rondo, Ray Allen, Paul and K.G. Everyone wants to be the man instead of having a role they can handle to perfection and at the end of the day LD is the first one that should go buh-bye!!!
Peter
March 29th, 2011
1:50 pm
Is anyone paying attention to Jordan Crawford who starts for the Wizards ?
He had 25 points last night.
Please tell me why we traded him away someone ?
Other then the Hawks can’t judge talent ?
Barton
March 29th, 2011
1:51 pm
Can we trade the Atlanta Hawks for the Washington Wizards and give Jerry Sloan a 6 year $120 million contract to come out of retirement.. I think that may be worth our time and money.
Mr. Phil
March 29th, 2011
1:52 pm
@DC
don’t dare get rid of LD before you get rid of the man that hired him and the men that hired him.
Barton
March 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
Also, JohnGT.. if you could get a petition going around for that I would absolutely sign it
nique
March 29th, 2011
1:55 pm
It’s easy to second guess, but the second guessing sure is appealing here.
ToeKnee
March 29th, 2011
2:03 pm
MC,
Is there any realistic way that we could trade Joe?
Or does his contract really make him ‘untradeable’? Could you see any team willing to take on his contract, like the Mavs or maybe the Rockets? To me it seems any team with cap space might be saving to try and get a Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, or Deron Williams in the coming years. What would the Hawks have to do to trade him?
Rufus1
March 29th, 2011
2:04 pm
@Mr. Phil
Sund wanted to hire Dwayne Casey, but ASG said hire LD.
Barton
March 29th, 2011
2:04 pm
Sorry, should have combined these posts/thoughts, but maybe we should let JJ ride the bench for the rest of the season to “get healthy” aka show how good this team is without him and let Marvin, and Teague if he ever gets in the game, build some confidence going into the playoffs.
Rev in Tampa
March 29th, 2011
2:12 pm
@Geemack
“Michael Cunningham
You do a great job at covering all angels of the Hawks, and not just the favorable ones.
Now if we can just get a basketball team that’s this good”
I’m stepping in for the Dept. of Unintended Irony:
The Hawks have wings but none of them are “angels”. And what is an unfavorable angel? A demon.
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
2:20 pm
It would really suck for the team itself, and some don’t deserve it, but I almost wish that the last regular season game at home, that absolutely ZERO PEOPLE attended the game. If LD won’t bench JJ (just my dream…never happen), then how about the message the community would send by not showing at all. Be the most exposure (albeit bad) this team gets all year.
yeahsure
March 29th, 2011
2:24 pm
MC,
What is the status of the acquisition of Hawks/Thrashers?? We hear there were multiple interested parties a few weeks ago, now nothing. Someone come save this team.
slimjr
March 29th, 2011
2:28 pm
Sorry Rev. Angels and Demons are two totally different spiritual entities/beings….Don’t piss off your guardian Angels?? LOL….
This subject matter is for another blog on another server……
Back to the count down to “Houston I think we’ve got a problem”….(Hawks and their 4th consecutive playoff run. PLAYOFFS?).
JohnGTFan
March 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
Yea, they’ll be in the playoffs, but it will end quickly. Not even worth watching. I “might” watch a game, but I highly doubt it. Probably be more exciting to watch paint dry.
Grandad
March 29th, 2011
2:36 pm
Alt. present could have included enough $ for a quality Coach.
slimjr
March 29th, 2011
2:41 pm
The team to watch in this playoff run will be the surging THUNDER CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have swept the freaking Hawks 3 years in a row!!!!!! They are the real deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!EXCITING..What the Hawks should be with this CORE, aye SUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Run dont walk…………………
Geemack
March 29th, 2011
2:49 pm
@ Rev in Tampa
I meant “Angle. My bad rev. thanks for pointing that out.
M@
March 29th, 2011
2:50 pm
You’re exactly right with the, ‘but are dismayed because they saw this coming and now have little hope for future improvement’ comment. I argued with some other avid fans about this once we signed JJ.
We are the Knicks when they signed Allan Houston. And now we’ll be succumbed to mediocrity at best for the next 4 years in a top-heavy East. But AFTER those 3 years, we’re bottom feeding and cash-strapped. Just like the Knicks.
And it only took them, what….10 years to come out of it? (And then, only kinda so far…6th in the East)
O'Brien
March 29th, 2011
2:54 pm
After being resigned, JJ’s agent said he (JJ) would try and recruit other players to come to the A. But the bottom line is, ownership and money play a big part in recruiting. Hawks are already over the salary cap and refuse to go over the luxury tax, so that alone limits the players we can afford. And then our ownership is horrible, so I dont blame JJ for other players not wanting to come here.
As for JJ’s lackluster performance, I think the blame is shared between him and LD.
JJ has been our captain for 4 or 5 years, and he has NOT provided the leadership necessary to keep guys in line. All he has done is keep his mouth shut, and try to lead by example, when clearly that approach never worked.
So if he is made at Josh, Jamal etc for rebelling (or doing things on their own), he deserves a big part of the problem for his (lack of) actions as a leader, since he was our only captain for years. And if he is mad at them, he needs to talk to them, not sulk and distance himself.
And LD is to blame because I dont think he knows how to maximize the strengths of these players.
SWAT Native
March 29th, 2011
3:00 pm
Joe Johnson is the only major free agent that hs wanted to come play for the Hawks in the last ten years, even though many of the big time players in the league own homes here or at least love to visit. There is a reason that they don’t want to come here. Not resigning Joe would have sent a message to the rest of the league that the Hawks won’t pay to keep their star players, and the Hawks would never have signed another major free agent. The Hawks had to keep Joe or the future would be even more bleak than it looks right now. I, for one, wouldn’t want to see another ten years of lottery ball.
By the way, it seems that much of the fan base has given up on LD. But think about the message it sends to the coaches fraternity if the Hawks fire a playoff coach after one year. Will this be seen as a desirable job? I bet a lot of coaches already feel that the Hawks did wrong by Woody.
O'Brien
March 29th, 2011
3:02 pm
FYI, New blog up
Bird
March 29th, 2011
3:27 pm
Somebody mentioned lets see what the Hawks can do against elite teams without Joe, hell the outcome can’t be much worse than the outcome against elite teams with Joe!
Sleepy
March 29th, 2011
3:38 pm
Vava is delusional .
Can you please give us a example of how jamal has went against the teams wishes and did anything in his own best interests first ? Can you point to anything that youve seen posted from anyone our team or another where they have said that jamal has not done anything that the coaching staff has asked ?
What I find amazing how selective some of you serious haters are with your iso cam .
You whine about Boobie Gibson scoring 11 inconsequential points while ignoring Barons 19 and 7 lol its because you simply cant blame jamal for both.
A club with real aspirations 3 best players usually show up at the same time .
typical hawk fan excuses in full display here
tyger
March 29th, 2011
3:56 pm
Hawks, cowards that’s why?
Everyone knew this team couldn’t win big after the Orlando Massacre last spring.
Yet, they gave JJ a mega-contract, despite him openly telling the fans, “he could care less about them…” Anywhere else, that would’ve been enough for a ticket out of town. You tell the customers, that pay your salary, you could care less about them and get rewarded for it??? That doesn’t pass the laugh test.
Conventional wisdom says the Hawks were backed into a corner. Not re-signing JJ would not save an equally proportionate amount of cap space, i.e. his $14M salary didn’t equal $14M in cap space by not re-signing him; so they felt stuck. Perhaps, it would be better to make one more run with him, and re-evaluate after the season.
However, while the Hawks were folding their hands, Lebron decided to take his talents to Miami; Otis Smith pulled the trigger early on an aged Magic roster; Boston followed suit; Derrick Rose naturally progressed and Philly is surging behind Lou Williams. Erstwhile, the Hawks traded Bibby for Hinrich and proceeded to lose 70% of their games down the stretch.
Most of the blame has fallen on LD, but he hasn’t missed one jumper or defensive assignment. He implemented a motion offense to get the ball outta JJ’s hands. Why? JJ is has a propensity to dribble the air outta the ball and heave last second 3’s or passes to people with no time on the clock. Nevermind the whiffs on defense or his anemia to the paint.
In sum, yes, the Hawks are better off without JJ. Of course he’s stifled Marvin’s progression. But he was on the verge of super stardom and he was treated as such. He just did not live up to his end of the bargain.
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2011
4:39 pm
We can whine and b!tch about JJ, Jamal, Marvin and Smoove all we want, but all of there issues can be corrected with proper coaching. But can anyone name one thing Woodson or Drew did, or has done, other than talking or yelling, to correct any of their bad habits?
If for arguing with the refs, or JJ for disrupting ball and player movement to go ISO, or the PG for ignoring Marvin, or Marvin for not being more assertive, you can’t tell me we’d still be having these player and team issues.
Everyone wants to say we need a player to step up and become a team leader, when what we need most is a HC to step up and become a team leader. You can’t tell me JJ, Smoove and Jamal can’t be coached or encouraged to improve their attitude and/or approach to the gm and the team. PThibedou, DCollins and PSilas have certainly been able to get max production out of far less talented and accomplished teams than the Hawks.
They let their players know if they didn’t do what’s expected or required, they wouldn’t play. IT’S JUST THAT SIMPLE. As a result, the Bulls have gone from being a team that relied almost exclusively on the DEF ability of Noah, to a solid DEF team without Noah. The Bobcats and 76ers have gotten better as the season winds down, especially defensively, while the Hawks are getting worse.
South25
March 29th, 2011
8:09 pm
The Hawks are the only team that does not have room with the salary cap. We are married to Joe Johnson for next five years.It seems we have the three stooges running the Hawks. We are stuck with this group with no expectations of playing for a championship. Why would I go to a Hawks game and know they will not being for a championship because management has no idea how to build a champion. Why would the players care they got their millions for the next five years. Good luck ownership or should we say the ship of fools.
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2011
11:28 pm
yall probably think im stupid, and im. I just run my mouth to be heard. I know it was idiotic of my to call for woodson ouster. Now I have to find a way to save face. I know most of you see right through me but hey, stupid is as stupid does.so there…. FIRE MIKE WOODSON!!
DAM IM STUPID.
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2011
11:30 pm
Another thing, when I called for the team to rally around my beloved Larry Drew most of you thought I was stupid, now look, see what I mean, it just goes to show you exactly how hopeless this has become. Has anybody got a cigarette?
Ken Strickland
March 29th, 2011
11:36 pm
Alot of yall heard me bragging about this Princeton offense and how it would take the hawks to the next level, some of you guys did not believe that it would. Its ok because sometimes you have to see these thing with a trained eye…like mine. I knew the Princeton offense was deadly. and I was right it did take the hawks to a new level….
Ok I already told you I dont know WTF im talking about but even a broke clock is right twice a day. so wtf I just keep right on chitting out of my mouth….
some body get some tolietpaper quick
Buddy Grizzard
March 30th, 2011
1:55 am
Wow, just when I thought I had to get on to MC for defending Larry Drew in the face of Mitch Lawrence’s reporting in the NY Post, MC lays the HAMMER down. It’s amazing to me that the playoffs are around the corner, and rather than being fired up about a potential first round matchup with Orlando we’re sitting here talking about what might have been if the Hawks had let Joe Johnson go last offseason.
What’s even more amazing to me is that, after all this time, MC states the same opinion I had in the offseason, that the Hawks would not have been much worse off (in the standings) if they had saved $120m and let Joe walk. So the Hawks gave Joe the biggest contract in the NBA and what do they have to show for it? The Hawks offensive ratings, playoff position and home won/lost record have all plumetted. And in fact that Hawks do appear to be much worse off, with very little financial flexibility to address the obvious holes in the roster.
“Is there a better city – professionally speaking – for a fledgling vocalist than Atlanta?” – Newkid
Let me name two. New York. Los Angeles.
Newkid I’m with you on daydreaming about Dwight Howard coming back to the A as a savior for the Hawks franchise. I’ve talked about it on these blogs before, the possibility of Howard joining Horford and Smith to form the best frontcourt since Bird, Parish and McHale.
On the real though, I know Billy Hume, the producer who discovered Bonecrusher and has multiple platinum album credits as a producer, engineer and writer with Lil Jon, Yin Yang Twins and many others. I also know Bruce Bennett, the producer who discovered Sugarland and has worked with Luda, Bad Brains and many more. Atlanta’s not a bad town to break as an R&B artist and I can hook Dwight’s chick up!
“Joe Johnson to the Mavericks for Caron Butler and Brendon Haywood.” – HawksGoingBackward
A much more realistic scenario, but Haywood’s contract is almost as bad as Joe’s. I keep saying it… best case scenario for the Hawks is to let NJ absorb Joe’s contract in the offseason for an unprotected 1st round pick in 2012.
Damien From Port Arthur Texas
March 30th, 2011
4:31 pm
i cant believe we dont have a center. I cant believe we are this scared of Labron and Co. I cant believe we will be gone in 6 but its true.
ShempHoward
March 30th, 2011
4:55 pm
The HAWKS PLAYERS HAVE “NO” HEART AT ALL. They collectively dont care what type of product they put on the floor. The only thing that the hawks players and coaches care about is COLLECTING THEIR PAYCHECKS. The hawks are an embarrassment to the national basketball association. IF the Hawks had given 150% maximum effort each night they played this year, they would now be approaching their 60th victory. This hawks team is capable of winning 60, but they wont even win 50 unless they show pride and play hard the rest of the way. This hawks team is a powerful team capable of winning the NBA title. But until they believe that, it will never translate that on the floor. Hopefully, the Hawks will all grow and improve their games during the offseason as well as acquire a good free agent during the off-season who will carry them over the top.
big o
March 30th, 2011
5:00 pm
Again…. Bring Howard home He will come get rid of LD keep the team in tact add Dewight win title