Atlanta Hawks: Back to (serious?) business
Los Angeles–Near the end of the Hawks’ shootaround at Madison Square Garden last week, L.D. watched Bibby, Joe, Al, and Josh playing some kind of game (I haven’t exactly figured out the rules but making shots seems to be a secondary goal to keeping the ball in the air with tip shots).
“You ever see that ‘Twilight Zone’ episode, ‘Kick the Can?’” L.D. asked. “That’s what this is right here.”
That classic episode involves old folks who get to be children again and use the opportunity to play games. L.D. was saying the Hawks are a bunch of big kids, and spend any amount of time around the team and you will discover that’s pretty accurate.
There is a goofy chemistry with these players. Guys like each other and have fun. It’s the serious stuff they aren’t always so good with.
“This is one of the loosest teams you will find,” Al said. “I think sometimes that can be a good thing for us and sometimes that can be a bad thing.”
There’s no better time for fun than the All-Star game but look at what Kobe did Sunday night. It was just an exhibition game but you could see he decided no one else was going to win the MVP in his building. So he went out and did his thing (with J.J. hounding him when things got serious at the end).
Kobe then had a message for Al: “He told me, ‘See you on Tuesday.’”
Was he serious?
“You never know with him,” Al said. “He’s probably dead serious.”
Clearly the Hawks are a bunch that likes (and maybe needs) to have a lot of fun. But with a tough remaining schedule and fourth place in the East looking like a tough task it’s time for them to get dead serious, too.
I was listening to KG on this subject the other day. It was surprising to hear him talk about clowning around with his teammates since his ultra-intense image doesn’t seem to allow much room for goofing off. How do the Celtics strike a balance between having fun and being fierce?
“When it’s not competitive, then it’s easygoing,” KG said. “I can separate the two. It’s not that big of a thing.”
He makes it seem easy but it the Hawks still haven’t figured it out.
“I hope we can come back in this second half with a renewed sense of urgency every game we play,” L.D. said. “It’s down to 27 games. I don’t care what happened the first part of the season, it comes down to this. We have got to do things with a sense of urgency and totally commit to the team.”
All-Star roundup
Al played just 10 minutes Sunday, second-fewest behind KG, but that was by design. Doc asked him about his health and Al told him his back “is still a little sore.”
“I felt like I played the right amount of time and made the most of my time on the floor,” Al said.
And how is the back?
“The back is OK,” he said. “It was just all about being able to share the experience with the guys and play a little. I’m happy Joe got to go out there and show what he’s got.”
J.J. ended up playing 20 minutes. He was on the floor at the finish after D-Wade (ankle) took a powder. Joe slipped out of the interview area before I could get to him.
Back to work
The Hawks regroup for practice in L.A. tonight and I will file a report after. L.D. said he would evaluate the lineup over the break but wouldn’t necessarily make a change.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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188 comments Add your comment
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
8:44 pm
O’Brien – The above post was from the Examiner, July 1st 2009
88hawksfan
February 21st, 2011
8:45 pm
I am glad, I am not the only one who sees what a waste of minutes Za Za is for the Hawks. The man has no hands, no drive, no strength to the basket, no lift off the ground, limited defense. I am glad he has helped us in the pre-Horford era, but he was nefver that good and is definitely not that good now. the Hawks organization has the have the courage to say goodbye to Za Za Pachulia. Marvin for a 1st round, 3rd pick is not that great and he does have the butt of a duck, but when he’s on, he contributes – ok, it’s a problem sometimes, but so are all the other Hawks. When the team is winning against an easy opponent , Joe Johnson makes everything, but when the game is tough, he misses a lot. I am not too harsh on Joe because he’s double-teamed, tripple-teamed all night (Joe get rid of the ball earlier when double, tripple-teamed!). Josh has those nights when nothings falls in, but he does more for this team than everyone except Al Horford. Joe may need another operation as an excuse of how lousy he shoots. He mades 3 3-pointers in the old star game, but missed the first one. That’s the one I remember the most. Bibby is not that bad and if we had a elite PG, and a center to share PT with Collins and let Al play 4 and Josh 3, we would be awesome! I would say, Bibby, Marvin, Collins, JC1 and or JC2 off the bench the send Mo, Za Za, Etan, and even J. Powell packing. J Powell is a good cheerleader and makes his 12 footers; he has a little D, but he’s that that good, Etan is even less of a good player. What is Sund going to do? Mo just not someone you can count on to make shots; is Mo’s defense that good? Wilkins wants a home in ATL, but can he really help? He’s nothing like Dominic or Gerald.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
8:47 pm
O’Brien – Remember posts like this concerning Marvin?
The most intriguing free agent: Marvin Williams
Postby HeroicKennedy on Wed May 13, 2009 2:56 am
Not necessarily the best or even the one to be had for the cheapest, but the kid really intrigues me. He’s bigger than Prince (230 vs. 215), he’s got good length and athleticism and seems to have started turning the corner as a player. His TS jumped from 51% to 54% to 57%, and his PER has jumped from 12.2 in 2006-2007 to 16.0 in 2008-2009. The guy seems to being making progress each and every season. I know a lot of people want to move Rip and bring in Gordon, but Gordon has actually regressed in the same period (TS stayed at 57%, PER dropped from 18.2 to 17.0). Something tells me that Marvin is on the verge of really busting out, but I think he won’t be able to do that in Atlanta thanks to guys like Smith and Johnson.
Not that I’m advocating simply removing Prince to bring in Williams, but I really think that Prince is the more valuable trading asset and would net us more than Hamilton, and that I’d rather have a 6′9 230 pound SF who’s showing good progress and has a lot of potential over the 6′2 SG who’s kind of maxed out and wants a lot more money. I don’t know how far Atlanta is willing to go to match, but I do think that Williams has a lot of talent and his size/strength potential could make him the second best SF in the East within the next 2-3 years.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
8:51 pm
O’Brien – And this from Yardbarker concerning Marvin June 29th, 2009:
4. Marvin Williams, F (23)
PER: 16.04
Williams is just 23, and averaged around 14/6 the last two seasons. He really improved his three point shot last year, nailing about 35% of his attempts (after shooting a woeful 10% the year before). His PER took a nice jump from 14.74 to 16.04, so he’s definitely developing, but what’s his upside? He’s a pretty good defender and he’s really young. In fact, he’s the complete package, but isn’t necessarily destined to be a star. He’s slated to make $7.3 million this season, and should probably sign an extension in that ballpark. The Kings, Raptors, T-Wolves and Blazers could use some help at small forward, so there may be a market if he and the Hawks can’t come to terms.
Value: $7.0 – $8.0 million per year
And there’s so many more articles out there on these subjects. I followed that Free Agency daily, and remember all this stuff, even if some don’t.
northcyde
February 21st, 2011
8:52 pm
@ ag . . the following is from thememphisedge.com
************
Questions and answers with Grizzlies beat reporter Ronald Tillery
By Gary Robinson on February 16, 2011 12:37 PM
Share:
If you have questions you’d like asked of Ron Tillery, e-mail them to me at robinson@commercialappeal.com
** A question from reader Keith: Considering how well the Grizzlies have played over the last few games without O.J. Mayo, do you think they will try to make a trade for him at the trade deadline? Consider the trade packages below:
Memphis Grizzlies trade: O.J. Mayo & Hasheem ThaBUST for either:
1. Portland Trailblazers: Greg Oden & Elliot Williams
2. Cleveland Cavaliers: Antawn Jamison & Anderson Varejao
3. NY Knicks: Wilson Chandler & Danilo Gallinari
4. Philadelphia 76ers: Andre Iguodala & Marreese Speights
5. Milwaukee Bucks: Chris Douglas-Roberts, Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, 2nd rd pick
While I personally believe that Mayo probably would benefit from a change of scenery given his troubles on and off the court in Memphis, I haven’t heard anything concrete that says owner Mike Heisley is looking to trade Mayo. Remember, Heisley called Mayo a “mini Kobe,” referring to Lakers guard Kobe Bryant. I don’t disagree with the notion that it’ll probably take Mayo to sweeten any deal Involving Thabeet. Right now, though, the Griz are more interested in moving Thabeet than Mayo in any package.
*********************
So if a team really wanted Thabeet, they probably could get him. But Thabeet ( or as the fan called him, ThaBUST ) is a garbage center.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
8:53 pm
But if you wanna shake up this team, I say:
Trade JC2 and a 2nd pick for Sessions if Cleveland will do it.
Trade Teague for Jason Thompson if the Kings still want that trade.
And see what happens.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
8:55 pm
Northcyde – Co-sign – Thabeet is a terrible center. I have no idea how long it would take to develop him, if ever (probably never).
northcyde
February 21st, 2011
8:59 pm
Thabeet is owed a whopping 5.1 million next season, with a team option in 2012 – 13.
So unless they’d take a player like Zaza off our hands ( who is still owed 10 million for the next 2 years ), I don’t know if Memphis would do that deal or not. I would seriously doubt it, seeing that they’re just as cash strapped ( if not more ) than we are.
doc
February 21st, 2011
9:12 pm
stevew who? after that blog on sund being competent.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
9:16 pm
Steve W,
Some team out there will offer Bibby a contract within range of $10 mil, maybe more..
They did not say a contract of $10 mil per year, so we should not jump to conclusions. Remember, we offered him a contract of $18 mil, so (imo), the $10 mil would have been a 2 year deal.
And I am not saying we should not have signed marvin. All I am saying is a good GM would have let the market set his price (or at least make his 5th year a team option).
Let me ask you this. Who was more valuable at the time? marvin? or josh Smith? If your answer is Josh Smith, then my next question then is why did Rick let Josh Smith test the market? Remember, Philly could have offered Josh 5 years, $80 mil. Lucky for us, they gave it to Elton Brand.
But memphis offered josh 5 years, $60 mil, which was a friendly deal. So we matched that same day. Do you think Rick should have used that approach with Marvin, especially since he is coming off an injury (marvin was injured during the playoffs too, so he didnt play well then either).
Melvin
February 21st, 2011
9:22 pm
Man, I wish the Hawks could acquire Harris, Felton or Hinrich. Seems like all three are available….
Hoops
February 21st, 2011
9:27 pm
Trading Evans and Teague for Sessions is a no brainer for the Cavs and the Hawks. What is the hild up? How hard can it be Rick Sund?
Hoops
February 21st, 2011
9:34 pm
The next trade the Hawks should try to get is Nene for Josh Smith straight up. Then you have this line up:
PG-Sessions/Bibby
SG-JJ/Crawford1/Crawford2
SF-Williams/Wilkins
PF-Horford/Powell
C-Nene/Zaza/Twin
That’s much better than what we have now!
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
9:40 pm
O’Brien – Agreed about Bibby, but again, I followed that voraciously on a daily basis, and we really thought he was gone.
Remember also, so marginal players got some really fat contracts – G Ben Gordon – 5 years, 55 mill.; Jarret Jack 4 year deal 20 mill. Hedo got a 5 year 53 mill deal. Charlie Villenueva a 5 year deal worth 35mill etc.
I’m sure Marvin could have tested the market, but what if he would have gotten a 5 year 45 mill offer? Would Sund have been stupid for matching?
And the Smith deal, if you remember was right after Sund got here. There was no harm in seeing what a psychotic, rebellious talent who was fighting with his Coach would get on the open market, especially when you can match it.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
9:46 pm
O’Brien – And this whole Gm stuff is such a dicey thing anyway. What if Marv signed for the 5 year deal he got, and then developed into an 18 and 10 guy? Now Sund’s looking like a genius.
Look at the Suns with Childress. He’s made them look stupid, and Sund pretty smart. And Thabeet and Mayo have made the Grizzlies front office look like idiots.
And Shelden, Acie, and Salim, as well as Marvin made BK out of a job.
What if JJ would have blown out a knee last season, he would have looked stupid rejecting Sund’s 4 year 60m offer. But he hit it big.
Brand blows out a knee. Redd the same. Kirelenko becomes oft injured. Now their front offices take a hit. So much is a dicey proposition.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
9:49 pm
Man, all this talk about Sessions is going to make me really disappointed if we don’t get him!
I think the guy can play, but I don’t know if LD can Coach him or give him proper minutes.
Big Ray. I do think LD and Woody can be wrong about Teague. Because they both come from the Larry Brown Coaching tree, which hates marginal, developing rookies and young players, and especially PG’s. Just my two cents.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
9:54 pm
Steve W,
In the summer of ‘09…
25 year old Jarrett jack was available, and he signed for 4 years $20 mil deal. He averaged 13 points and 5 assists his contract year.
22 year old Ramon Sessions was available, and he signed for 4 years, $16 mil. he averaged 12 points and 6 assists his contract year.
31 year old Mike Bibby was available, and we offered him 3 years, $18 mil. he averaged 15 points and 5 assists.
32 year old Andre Miller was available, and he got 3 years, $21 mil (only 2 years and $14 mil guaranteed). he averaged 16 pts and 7 assists.
The fact that other PGs were available was an opportunity for Sund to get Bibby to accept a 2 year deal, or a lower annual salary. As a GM, you have to look at the market (supply and demand). And there were other options at PG.
I know Woody wanted Bibby back, but a good GM must also do what he thinks is right. Next year, LD will probably want jamal back. Does that mean Rick should potentially overpay to bring him back?
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
9:54 pm
I’m at the point now, I want to trade Bibby for something, almost anything, get Sessions, and keep a young BC in Sessions and Teague.
Sautee
February 21st, 2011
9:56 pm
SteveW,
about this: “LD wanted Powell for his outside shot, his practice presence, his locker room stuff, and to teach the Hawks how to get 2 rings.”
Never saw ANYTHING about this before we acquired Powell. I only saw that LD said something like that AFTER Powell was signed, that he was glad to have him for those reasons.
You make it sound like going after Powell was LDs idea.
Got a source?
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
9:58 pm
O’Brien – Bibby’s percieved value was very high because of his experience. I know what your saying. But I also know Mr. Tightwad, Rick Sund. And he would not have paid Bibby .1 cent over what he had to in order to keep him.
Now the Jamal situation is different, because of Luxury tax and a new CBA. No way to keep Jamal because of ASG, unless as MC says, ATL makes an unexpected, deep run in the playoffs.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
9:59 pm
Steve W,
A good GM must also look at the makup of his team. With JJ doing what he does, Josh improving, Al improving, and Bibby doing what he does, how likely was it that Marvin was going to get enough shots to average 18 pts?
And lets say Marvin was to average 18 and 10, what if he was missing 25% of the season every other year (which is what he did for 2 of the last 3 seasons before signing his deal)? Would it be worth it?
And did Rick not realize that the CBA would expire in 2 years, which would probably lower salaries, salary cap space etc?
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:00 pm
This is what Bibby’s agent said after agreeing with ATL, “A number of teams had interest in him … but I think Mike was comfortable in the environment” with the Hawks, Falk said.”
cp
February 21st, 2011
10:03 pm
LD will not change the starting lineup. We will see the same guys we always see out there….I forgot who suggested it on here but I would be fine with giving Teague about 5 starts to see if he plays better with the starters. As bad as Bibby has been on the defensive end I dont see how it could hurt. Its time to try something new because I doubt Gearon lets Sund make any significant move. The price tag for Sessions is probably growing by the day.
JoJo the Godfather
February 21st, 2011
10:05 pm
I have four issues with Sessions: 1) He turns the ball over almost as often as Teague does, 2) He can’t hit the 3 at all, 3) He makes nearly 3 times the money that Teague does, and 4) He’s a known poor defender.
I’ll take him for Mo and a second round pick, but not Teague or JC2.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
10:08 pm
From the Denver Post;
The Carmelo Anthony trade saga is nearly over.
Indications are that a trade is imminent with the New York Knicks, with only minor details to be worked out before an agreement is reached, a league source said..
I am ready for melo to be traded, so other deals can take place.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:12 pm
This from the LA Times July 21st, 2010: This is about Josh Powell signing with the Hawks, which occurred a few days later.
Hawks first-year Coach Larry Drew said, “that’s about a done deal.”
Drew said Powell can provide the Hawks with a lift off the bench at power forward.
Now you would assume that LD had some input into what FA’s he wanted, and what would best fit with his offense. This shows he was talking about it before the signing. And yes, you are correct, that I read the other things after the signing, but one assume that he didn’t just sign JP and say, “Wow! We also got a guy who has 2 rings, and has a great locker room presence too! Besides being the guy we wanted..”
I’m sure all of that was factored in to the decision, aren’t you?
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
10:13 pm
Steve W,
Of course that’s what his agent said.
I just think if Sund was a good GM, then he would have found a way to make the deals more favorable.
Why not offer Bibby 2 years, $16 mil, and then a third year team option for $6 mil? That way he gets an extra $2 mil per year, and the hawks have the option of keeping him for a 3rd year.
At his age, was Bibby going to sign with a non-playoff team?
I know its a risk, but good GMs know how to play their cards. I think Rick Sund just plays it safe…
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:16 pm
Now MC was on vacation from the 16th of July until August, so news was kinda hard to come by during that stretch….
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:22 pm
O’Brien – I def. wouldn’t have offered 8m per to Bibby, not even for 2 years. The guy was coming off of a 14.9m per year contract, but he had clearly declined. Who could know that Bibby would pull a Koncak on us?
I was going to get you quote from Portland, lobbying for Bibby before they got Miller, calling his contract “modest” and “reasonable”. But his is getting old. You think Sund overpaid. All I’m saying is following it at the time, it was just about market value, slightly overpaid, but you did it to please the 5 year vet Coach who was in a contract year, and give him no excuses for not winning.
So we may could have saved a mil a year. That’s not much in this world of NBA high finance.
But I can show you some bad contracts, if people need to be reminded…
Grandad
February 21st, 2011
10:22 pm
SteveW;
I have yet to figure why LD is off the Larry Brown coaching tree?
Please explain.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:22 pm
“his” should be “this’ in my last post
KevinM
February 21st, 2011
10:25 pm
SteveW, not sure how trading Childress for a 2nd round pick was genius? No, I was not interested in bringing him back, but there wasn’t a person on this blog who thought as a #6 pick that he was worth a ‘basically wasted’ 2nd rounder. The wasted part remains to be seen when we pick but Sund to me does not do anything magical. You can what-if about Marvin, Zaza, anyone. That part is over.
Sund’s true test as a GM will be seen whether this team makes any headway this playoff season with this roster. Its a shame I am hearing a potential Battier to Boston deal at this point because Houston sounds like they want to shake things up, unlike our current basketball expert.
Battier and Brooks fit this roster well; we get our midrange defender, we get a slasher and high energy guy, and we improve the starting 5 in 2 positions, which would be unheard of after 2/3 of the season.
KevinM
February 21st, 2011
10:32 pm
OB, since this Melo deal is nearly done, prepare to see the Knicks pose a serious threat to the 5th playoff slot.
It won’t take much to blend Melo and Billups into the Knicks’ pick and roll schemes. They lose some of their balanced talent, but it should be worth it to get Amare some big time help.
No excuses going forward, as Joe would say.
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:33 pm
Knicks are going to have to score 110 pts a game to beat anyone.
they gave up an awful lot.. Gallinari and Chandler are pretty good wing defenders..
Melvin
February 21st, 2011
10:35 pm
ESPN is reporting that Melo is a Knick. I think the trade wont be official until tomorrow when the NBA office re-opens…
The four team above the Hawks and the team behind the Hawks have made major addition to their teams since this summer. Now what is Sund and ASG going to do?
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:37 pm
Raymond Felton on the block..
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:40 pm
so is the reason why the Knicks wanted to act this season is so Carmelo can get the most money vs having to leave it on the table by signing w/ the Knicks this off season or taking the money w/ the Nets..
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:42 pm
Grandad – Here’s where I get that. LD assisted Woody longer than he assisted anywhere, 6 years if I’m not mistaken. And here is Woody’s bio from NBA.com
“His days in Motown were the foundation for many of the coaching principles he attempts to instill within his players. Learning from Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown, Woodson has continued to stress “doing things the right way” – working hard, putting the team first and dedicating themselves to becoming the best players they can be, as they work together to build a winning organization, on-and-off the court.”
So I would assume that since Woody is part of the Larry Brown tree, and LD spent so much time under Woody, he’s part of the same influence.
But of course Woody is no Larry Brown in terms of success…
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:42 pm
NeNe .. Big Moz.. JR.. and Raymond Felton all on block.. sheesh.
O'Brien
February 21st, 2011
10:44 pm
Melo deal is finally done.
and the Knicks have no depth.
Bigdave,
I think Nene will be available too.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:45 pm
KevinM – First of all, Sund didn’t draft Childress, BK did.
But Sund did quickly assess that Childress was not worth what he was asking. So Sund looks like a smart guy for not signing him, because Josh has turned out to be somewhat of a major bust in Phoenix at 5-6m per year.
That’s what I meant.
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:46 pm
There are NBA types that say that ‘Melo and Amare can’t work together in D’Antoni’s style. And we all know how certain players thrive in certain systems. They’ll be good, but it remains to be seen how good.
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:48 pm
hopefully Dwight wants to come home and makes the Magic send him ..
SteveW
February 21st, 2011
10:49 pm
Miami Herald – “The paper reported that the Nuggets are sending Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman to New York.
The Nuggets will receive Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks’ 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors’ 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors’ 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.”
Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/21/2078557/report-melo-to-knicks-in-huge.html#ixzz1EejuZlnv
Billups makes this trade bigger than it already is. Now that guys a winner, and if anybody can lead the Knicks to a championship, that guy can.
bigdave
February 21st, 2011
10:50 pm
our schedule just got a little easier w/ 2 games left against Denver..
that remaining Knick game just got a bit more interesting.
Grandad
February 21st, 2011
10:50 pm
JoJo the Godfather
point # 1
Sesssions = 4.8 to 1.8 career assist to TO ratio
this yr it’s 5.3 to 1.9
*[not too shabby]
Teague = 0.7 to 0.8 career asst to TO ratio
and this year 0.7 to 0.9
** point # 1 debunked
#2 accurate
#3 accurate
point #4 up for debate:
sessions has always been a willing defender
gets in stance
gives effort
quick and athletic
I’ve never read where he is a “good” defender however.
Neither have I read where he is a “bad” defender.
There are two ends of the spectrum;
Battier = a great defender,
Sasha Vujacic = a horrible defender,
there is a middle somewhere
and I suspect Sessions lies somewhere in the twain.
Melvin
February 21st, 2011
10:51 pm
Knicks gave up a lot to get Melo but Billups, Fields, Melo and Amare is a pretty solid 4 man tandem….
doc
February 21st, 2011
10:55 pm
stevew says:
There are NBA types that say that ‘Melo and Amare can’t work together in D’Antoni’s style. And we all know how certain players thrive in certain systems. They’ll be good, but it remains to be seen how good.
as a reminder stevew, seems this summer folks were saying the same thing about the heat. if billups along for the ride then things will gel just fine.
nets did what they wanted which was to weaken the knicks by forcing them to add more to the pot.
88hawksfan
February 21st, 2011
10:57 pm
Did I watch a different games? IMO, Amere did not eat Al’s lunch. I think Al played the better game in NY against Amare. Amare did play better at the all star game, but not against Al in NY last week. Did you see what Al did to him when Amare tried to take the chair from under Al: Straight to the basket. Embarrassing for Amare. Did you see Al block Amare’s shot? Amare ate Al’s lunch? Really?
lewis
February 21st, 2011
10:59 pm
man you gotta go after felton no one is untouchable