Atlanta Hawks: Knicks 102, Hawks 90
Felton isn't the only one who does this to the Hawks. (Christopher Pasatieri / Newsday)
New York–After all the hype surrounding this game, it came down to some basic, boring (and familiar) truths about the Hawks.
- A team like New York, which has penetrating point guards, threats to roll to the rim and 3-point shooters, can slice up the Hawks because the first thing leads to the other two. And the Hawks can easily be induced to take long jump shots, either because opponents force them to do so or, like tonight, the Hawks abandon the game plan after a few misses in close.
- Both things happened against the Knicks, and so the Hawks were subpar both on offense (aside from making 11 of 22 3-point attempts) and defense (48 percent shooting allowed, 18 fastbreak points).
- Defense was the real problem for the Hawks, who never could put together any kind of sustained run because New York would easily get an open shot and make it.
- “Every time we tried to [rally], they made a big three or a big basket,” Al said. “It was a little demoralizing. We stayed with it, but we just didn’t have enough tonight.”
- The issues, like most times, started on the ball.
- “They run a ton of pick-and-rolls and we were trying to figure out the best coverages for it,” L.D. said. “They do a great job in the pick-and-roll with Felton and then they have a guy who is a forceful roller with Stoudemire. You have to defend the guard, you have to defend the big guy on the roll and then they spread out with shooters. It makes it tough for us. “
- Sounds like he pretty much just described the Celtics. Or the Bulls. Or the Magic. Shoot, take away the roll man but add two of the best screen-roll ball-handlers in the league and it’s the Heat.
- “We just had more individual breakdowns on a lot of simple things [like] transition defense, closeouts,” Drew said.
- “It’s kind of hard to really help, especially when they are knocking down the jump shot like tonight,” Smoove said. “We gave up too much dribble penetration and then we helped and were scrambling from that point on.”
- I’m thinking I can save time by putting the above three quotes in a macro file.
- At one point, a New York hack sitting next to me asked: “So, basically, whomever Bibby is guarding scores?” Me: “Not always. Sometimes his man passes to open shooters when everything breaks down, and they score.”
- Later from the hack: “If this team had a different point guard they could be so good.” I told him it was supposed to be Teague, and he asked: “Is he hurt or something?”
- I couldn’t decide if my blog people would have laughed or cried if you had heard that conversation.
- Al never really could get on track, though he dismissed his beef with Stoudemire as a factor: “I thought it was something small to begin with that he tried to blow it up and run with it. I think it was just a lot of talk. He didn’t say anything out there on the court. I went out there and played my game and he played his.”
- For the first time I can remember, Al complained about his touches. That’s odd since there have been plenty of other games when the Hawks did forget about him for long stretches but tonight he was involved.
- “I started to get touches a little later in the game as opposed to early or the start of the second half,” he said. “I didn’t get touches in the post like that so I could really get established.”
- I thought the Hawks might have been able to keep up if they had stuck with the post-ups. Joe and Marvin got into good position by backing down their men. Smoove got some drives at the basket and Bibby some good spot-up looks when passes came out of the post.
- The Hawks had trouble finishing at the basket, though, and instead of keeping at it, they went to their favored jump shots. That approach also quickened the pace.
- “We want to think inside out,” L.D. said. “Once you show you can attack inside they have got to collapse, they have got to double team. We missed some easy ones and then we started settling for outside shots, jump shots. On the road, it can be your demise. When they pressured us and sped us up some, we didn’t handle it well.”
- “We was rushing and they were giving us the jump shot,”Smoove said. “We weren’t able to knock them down tonight.”
- Especially not Josh (6 of 16) or Jamal (3 of 11). The latter forced things at times, as he tends to do when back in New York (usually with better results). He jacked a jumper on the baseline while double-teamed after the Hawks got within 74-65. They never recovered.
- The Hawks enter the All-Star break in fifth place in the East, a full game behind Orlando
- “I think we will come back re-focused and ready to go,” Al said. “I don’t think we are playing our best basketball yet. We are starting to be a little more consistent, we just have lapses like we did tonight. I hope we can get there.”
- I’m off to L.A. tomorrow, blog people. I’ll get back to blogging when I get out there.
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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374 comments Add your comment
slimjr
February 17th, 2011
10:44 am
this 7 game rd trip may turn into 1-6……Just Brutal………………
EmirS.
February 17th, 2011
10:45 am
@lewis
Think about it first. To get Sessions, you will more then likely have to give up Jamal and Bibby. Or Jamal and someone else. The Cav’s are in a rebuilding process. They want pieces.
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
10:46 am
When JJ is moving and getting shots within the framework of the offense the Hawks are a better team. For all the talk by you bloggers Bibby has proven to be the best court leader on the team. He seems to understand the offense and runs it well. He just can’t be relied on o play so many minutes.
JC1 is not the answer at pg and until teague or another pg surfaces for the Hawks they are in trouble. People talk about effort and heart, I think the Hawks have heart but in a long season when you are playin too many minutes and not getting much of anything from the bench the best of players will begin to faulter.
JJ and JC1 not scoring is a major concern.
EmirS.
February 17th, 2011
10:47 am
Jamal “IS” your bench. Once you get rid of Jamal, you have no bench.
Westurd
February 17th, 2011
10:52 am
this is a mess…..can we please get someone on this squad with some juevos that isn’t just a mirrow of Woody. If nothing happends before the trade deadline then nothing happens with the Hawks. Mediocrity once again Hawks fans.
STRETCH
February 17th, 2011
10:52 am
Well if they dont make any moves this season, the need to bring a PG in and pick up a Center somehow this off-season.
They also need a sharp-shooter off the bench. Jamal is a creator for his points, but the Hawks need a pure shooter.
Cut ties with one of the “Big 3″ and get DEPTH…thats whats killing this team. JJ is stuck here, gotta swallow that pill. Horford is the franchise player so that leaves JS. I love Josh’s defense, but offensively…really, what can he do besides shoot 3 of 11???
Its obvious LD has no control over him and he is not going to listen to anybody. They guy has been in the league 8 years and STILL WONT LISTEN TO ANYBODY!
i_am_soulstar
February 17th, 2011
10:54 am
The case FOR Ramon Sessions:
1) Sessions boasts a 19.07 PER
2) Sessions makes just around 4 million a year
3) His estimated wins added are 5.7
4) In terms of player efficiency, he is the 8th best point guard in the league (That’s above Devin Harris, Rajon Rondo, Chauncey Billups, and Andre Miller)
5) He’s only 24 years of age
6) He is a clear upgrade over anything the Hawks currently have at point guard.
Fire away…
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
10:57 am
Sessions would be a good pickup, but who’s to say he will play max minutes. He is young and would have to learn a new system as well as mesh with the team. Everyone keeps talkin trade but that seems unrealistc to me with how ASG works.
People keep crucifying Bibby, Nash is a liability on defense but it doesn’t seem to hurt Phoenix. Ya’ll need to quit making Bibby the scapegoat!!! He is giving effort and producing. Without him last night the Hawks are blownout.
JJ has to be held accountable for his play the last 4 games and if there is no flow to the offense Josh has to shoot. He plays a lot with the enemic 2nd unit and with JC1 trying to run the point who else is there to score.
When the 1st unit runs their offense, plays defense and runs they are as effective as any team in the NBA. However when they don’t move the ball, get tired and have no help off the bench they are subpar at best.
You saw the game the other night: starters come out and play well, leave with the lead. Subs come in play lousy, lose lead and Hawks are down by 15. Starters come back in and instantly erase the deficit and build the lead back up. I don’t know what team some of you are watching but the starters are not the problem. Its the bench and poor rotations by LD!!!!!!!!!
Rufus1
February 17th, 2011
10:58 am
Defensive problems…
80% of defensive problems start at the PG position. Bibby’s defensive problems probably accounted for 50pts last night.
We are 8th in points allowed in the league. If we had a decent defensive PG, we would be in the top 5. If we Had Hinrick, we would be top 3.
If starting Teague would guarantee we would be a top 5 defense team, would LD start him?….Probably not. He thinks Bibby had a good game because he hit five 3’s.
Their 3 wing players had 48pts and seven 3’s and the PG had 11ast. They also shot 48% for the Game….Wow
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:01 am
Marvin said the bench role will take some adjusting. What does that mean? We change the starting lineup every game.
YOU CAN’T SWITCH JOSH FROM THE 4 TO THE 3 TO THE 4 TO THE 3 EVERY NIGHT
WE NEED DEFINED ROLES
Rufus1
February 17th, 2011
11:03 am
STRETCH
Bibby could be the sharp shooter if we get a PG.
Chris E
Stop looking at his points, the defense attacked him on 80% of the offensive possessions…He is killing our defense.
Double Zero Eight
February 17th, 2011
11:05 am
ASG is considering selling the Thrashers or finding
another investor. They indicated they are losing 20 million
per year.
If they keep the Hawks core together and don’t make
a significant trade, they will make a quick exit in the
playoffs this year. The fans will stay away next year
and they will be at the very bottom in NBA atendance.
Coupled with JJ’s contract, they will lose millions next
year. It is not looking good over the horizon for the Hawks.
ASG is terrible. There are too many owners. They can’t
go to the bath room without taking a vote. No wonder
they can’t agree on making a trade of any consequence.
I was flabbergasted when I saw a commercial last night
at half time promoting the Hawks as an elite team!.
Rufus1
February 17th, 2011
11:05 am
Jeje
Defined role are the difference between good and great teams.
Popavich told jefferson he had to change his game to fit around Duncan, Parker and Gino….Defined roles and DEFINED LEADERSHIP.
jeje
February 17th, 2011
11:05 am
Got to get rid of Bibby!!!
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:07 am
Bibby should have an Eddie House-type role
Trade Teague+a pick + Mo for Ramon Sessions and try get A.Parker or J.Graham
FIRE SUND
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
11:08 am
Oh by the way Collins started against Detroit. Some one said it right earlier, the Hawks need to play inside out. But I truly feel that both Al and Josh could help stop penetration better with another Big down low to box out, absorb the middle and rebound.
LD is too reliant on his starters and in that way he is too much like Woodson. With a lineup of Bibby, JC1, Mo, Josh and Zaza you are not going to keep a lead and your certainly not going to get one.
drmaryb (*_*)
February 17th, 2011
11:19 am
Kanye Shrug!
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
11:24 am
I agree that Bibby is a defensive liability but its the lack of size with Marvin in the starting lineup that makes it worse because when the pg breaks Bibby down off the dribble, Al and Josh collapse and help which opens up a layup or open jumper.
With Collins in, both Josh and Al don’t both seem to have to help as much or one would usually see fir to help rarther than both. This then allows for them to rotate better on D.
Every team has weaknesses and with all the talk Bibby will be the pg the rest of the season. So what can the Hawks do to minimize his deficiencies on Defense and maximize their strentghs on Offense.
Not just looking at Bibby’s points but his leadership. When Bibby is not in the game the offense never has much cohesiveness!!!!!!!! And since the Hawks don’t penetrate as much as they should or could they need a pg that can run the offense. Neither JC1 or Teague have proven that they can do that as effectively as Bibby.
NCBravesFan
February 17th, 2011
11:26 am
I had to laugh at the suggestion of getting Jerry Sloan here – ’cause we all know that 70 year old men who just ran screaming from one burning building like nothing better than running right to the next one.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 17th, 2011
11:28 am
” Which one would u choose if you could ONLY CHOOSE 1. Get Jerry Sloan as a replacement for LD with NO TRADE FOR THE SEASON or keep LD and make a trade B4 deadline?”
Get Jerry Sloan, without question. I would like to know once and for all what this team’s ceiling is with a coach that can get the most out of the roster, and which players are good and which players are not. Unless the trade in question is something really lopsided in the Hawks’ favor, get the coach without question.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 17th, 2011
11:31 am
And yeah, I realize there’s no way Jerry Sloan would ever agree to come here. A hypothetical answer for a hypothetical question.
ryan
February 17th, 2011
11:32 am
I don’t think its Drew so much i think the players are just not playing hard week after week there just not consistent enough like Boston or the Spurs .
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
11:33 am
If LD does not make any rotation changes after the All Star game he should be fired. You have to make adjustments in this league and as a coach you have to trust what you’ve got.
Teague must get more minutes and Bibby and JJ’s minutes have to be reduced. Bibby’s significantly for he to be effective. If you play Bibby and Collins 20 to 25 minutes a game and give Teague more minutes at the pg while Jamal takes some of JJ’s minutes the Hawks will become a better team instantly.
In JJ’s defense, moving from the 2 to the 3 is too much for him. To many Hawks are playing out of position when they don’t have to. You might as well change things up a bit. What LD is doing now is not working and by now everyone should know the definition of insanity!!!!
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:36 am
There’s no way Sloan would come to this joke city, be underpaid, and deal with people like Josh Smith.
He will never coach again unless he gets a lucrative offer from a team like the Lakers
FIRE SUND
Najeh Davenpoop
February 17th, 2011
11:39 am
“People keep crucifying Bibby, Nash is a liability on defense but it doesn’t seem to hurt Phoenix. Ya’ll need to quit making Bibby the scapegoat!!! He is giving effort and producing. Without him last night the Hawks are blownout.”
Nash completely transforms his entire team offensively. He more than makes up for his poor defense by getting everyone easy shots and making such a high percentage of his own. Bibby has nowhere near the offensive impact of Nash, so his poor defense is felt a lot more.
With that said, Bibby has played well the last couple of games on offense, despite being the defensive sieve he usually is.
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:41 am
Bibby is garbage. Whoever that Season Ticket Holder was who destroyed Bibby in front of Gearon Jr (per Section 303’s comments), God Bless You
Worldwide Clyde
February 17th, 2011
11:41 am
Free Jordan Crawford
Worldwide Clyde
February 17th, 2011
11:42 am
Bring Terry Stotts back
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:46 am
Fire Woody
I want Kruger back
Najeh Davenpoop
February 17th, 2011
11:47 am
For some reason the trade machine is crapping out on me, but I think the following trade would work and have a reasonable chance of being accepted by each team:
Hawks get Ramon Sessions, T-Mac (expiring), Ben Wallace, Tayshaun Prince (expiring)
Pistons get Jamal Crawford (expiring), Josh Powell (expiring), Etan Thomas (expiring), Mo Evans (expiring), and if necessary a pick from the Hawks (although it shouldn’t be necessary)
Cavs get Jeff Teague (rookie scale deal) from the Hawks and Chris Wilcox (expiring) from the Pistons
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:47 am
Bibby has had 3 years to lose weight and get in shape
He has done neither
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:47 am
THE 2 CRAWFORDS FOR JORDAN AND PIPPEN
Puzzled
February 17th, 2011
11:48 am
I live in the NE, so I only see the Hawks play wen they play NJ or the Celtics, unless they’re being nationally televised, which is extremely rare.
My question is, “Is Bibsters defense as bad as it sounds in the blogs?”
This team has the same core group as last season, and they have taken a step backwards. You still see the same overall characteristice from them, but they are not as good as last year.
MC, has LD shared with anyone why JT does not get more playing time? If they consider him to PG of the future, he needs to play. If he’s not the PG of the future, then they ned to get one in here quickly.
JeJe
February 17th, 2011
11:53 am
The Knicks are an awful defensive team yet played good defense last night.
O'Brien
February 17th, 2011
11:59 am
Chris E,
He is giving effort and producing. Without him last night the Hawks are blownout..
Bibby had 15 pts and 2 assists. The opposing PG had 13 pts and 11 assists. So who had the better game?
JJ guarded Felton some, but that’s because Bibby is so bad defensively. SO now we have one of our best offensive players, having to spend a lot of energy on defense chasing Bibby’s guy.
For the season, Bibby is averaging 10 pts, and 4 assists. Nash is averaging 17 pts, and 11 assists and 4 rebounds. Plus Nash gets a lot of FTs, while Bibby hardly ever gets any.
If Bibby was averaging what Nash was, then very few people would be bashing him the way they do.
Worldwide Clyde
February 17th, 2011
12:04 pm
Bibby is the worst starting point guard in the league
ryan
February 17th, 2011
12:07 pm
Najeh i like trade lord knows the Hawks need cap room to pursue home town star D. Howard and maybe Derron Williams .
KevinM
February 17th, 2011
12:14 pm
I’m not saying that Gearon doesn’t spend $$ and I dont’ think more $$ is the answer here…its the way he has spent $$ in the offseason.
Going forward, we need to solidify weakenesses in our lineup. We have more holes than we want to admit. But Joe needs help big time. Since he is who we are letting lead us, he needs a major influx of a player who contributes on both ends. Draft picks, one out of SMoove or Al, I don’t care, just get Joe some help in the backcourt.
Lewis, dead on correct!
IF you can get an offer for Joe, which I highly doubt…..consider him on the market also.
Larry’s taste in a PG sure looks like Felton doesn’t it? He just looks overweight and I don’t like him as a longterm answer. But Larry probably drools over him…..not a slashing guard but a guard who plays tougher and within offensive constraints.
I think we saw the real Hawks team last night against decent competition. The Detroit game just shows you what happens when the jumpers actually go in more frequently than the norm.
Chris E
February 17th, 2011
12:18 pm
JeJe you are either too emotional or somethin!!!! People forget that if Bibby did not come to ATL we never make the playoffs. That’s not to say that validates him now but I maintain he is not the reason they lost in the playoffs the last 2 years and Najeh your right Nash gives more offensively but last time I checked the Suns were under 500.
The Hawks are too small in the front court and they don’t have or play their bench. If Chris Paul came in tomorrow the hawks would be way better but still need a good backup pg and a Big. With CP3 we still get beat by Boston, Miami, Chicago and Orlando with Marvin in the starting lineup.
Horford and Josh can’t be responsible for holding it down in the middle. The Celtics play great Team Defense, so do the Lakers and Orlando. Jameer is not the greatest defender and Derek Fisher certainly leaves a lot to be desired.
When you do have a liability on Defense at pg you certainly can’t also have one at the Center position!!!!!!!!!
cp
February 17th, 2011
12:21 pm
@John Bluecorn , easily one of the best posts Ive seen on here………Its clear that LD talks a good game but doesn’t follow through with it…..I’ve yet to see any accountability for this bunch….LD talks about what the gameplan was but I see different on the court. If guys are shooting too many jumpers and not playing defense then why do you continue to keep them on the court. ..LD looks like Woodson… The vets get a long leash while the young guys get pulled after any mistake….Sticking with guys who are clearly off their game instead of trying something else……Like I keep saying, Bibby might make some 3’s but his defense is so bad that his offense does not make up for it… LD has to stop playing Jamal at the point. Its clear he is struggling at the position but LD keeps throwing him out there. Other than Jamal nobody on the bench really plays consistent minutes…New coach same problems.
I see that some folks want to move Joe. I would be calling up Houston or Dallas to see if they would be interested in Joe. At this point it couldn’t hurt.
dsee
February 17th, 2011
12:22 pm
Joe must go. You cannot tweak the team without scraping this season. Everyone knows the end results. Joe has value as a franchise face or as a championship piece. Additionally, send Jamal/Zaza to Orlando for J. Rich. (frees up next yr. cap space, Plus Orlando needs Zaza now.) Get rid of the backcourt while we can. Send Joe to NJ before Portland dumps their garbage on them.
lewis
February 17th, 2011
12:27 pm
If Jamal is our bench, then i guess we only have a bench 1 in 4 games.
ejh
February 17th, 2011
12:45 pm
Once again I say the Hawks need a way to get Sessions. Give up your first round pick and Teague and Mo evans. This guy was a 2nd round pick out of UNLV in 2007. In his second year he had a game where he finished with 44 points and 20 assists. And another game where he scored 25 points and had 22 assists. This kid is hungary to prove that he is going to be one of the best points in the league. How about last night against the lakers 32 points 8 assists in only 36 minutes and he did not even start the game. He was 13-15 from the foul line, that is more trips to the line than the hawks whole team against the knicks last night and at 6′3″ 195 he is big enough and fast enough to defend the opposing team point guards. Get the deal done ASG.
HoosierHawk
February 17th, 2011
12:53 pm
Whoever mentioned Heinrich- I am with you. Trade Jamal for Heinrich straight up. They get a good player, and are obviously rebuilding, so they get 10m in expiring contracts.
Scoop
February 17th, 2011
12:54 pm
You can not fault the effort because it was there tonight.
We took what the defense gave us and did make an effort to post up and get inside, but as usual, we had to play 5-on-8 and the calls went against us. Bibby was the only guy to not show up tonight.
It was like the game was too fast for him.The Knicks made a concious effort attacking him, which either collapsed our defense or led to a layup under the basket. Even offensively, the Knicks hounded Bibby with ball pressure over half court and he had a hard time making a simple bounce pass on the perimeter!!!!!!!
When Teague entered the game with about 4 minutes left everything changed. Instantly, he was able to get to the basket on offense and played very solid defense against felton on the p&r. It now seems imperative to start Teague for our glaring, defensive weakness on the perimeter. I know LD is trying to support his player, but Bibby has got to swallow his pride and do what’s best for the team. We need some quickness in the starting lineup to help get things going in the paint, while also defending the p&r.
BTW the Hawks will win East and make it to the NBA Finals. Book it.
MaxxHawk
February 17th, 2011
1:03 pm
Yea, the Jeff Teague thing is just really difficult to understand. Why does the guy get no minutes? Bibby is tired and can’t defend anybody. I’m just hoping the Hawks wake up and start playing hard in the playoffs, otherwise we’ve got to make some moves and trade some guys, this team is complacent and doesn’t play hard enough. I’d like to see us keep Al, Josh and Jordan Crawford, everyone else can be moved, especially Marvin that bum has GOT to go he’s WAY overdue to be traded/released
Worldwide Clyde
February 17th, 2011
1:03 pm
At the start of training camp the coaching staff was saying if someone gave up a layup they would have to come out the game. What happened to that?
At the start of training camp Drew said Teague would play a bigger role for the Hawks. What happened to that?
Drew = Woody
Worldwide Clyde
February 17th, 2011
1:06 pm
“I’m just hoping the Hawks wake up and start playing hard in the playoffs, otherwise we’ve got to make some moves and trade some guys, this team is complacent and doesn’t play hard enough.”
We’ve been hoping and praying for 6 years on this blog and all we’ve got is disappointment.
lewis
February 17th, 2011
1:22 pm
“it was like the game was too fast for him”
One possession really stuck with me. Bibby and Joe got screened, and it was like they ran into concrete walls. Bibby in particular, trying to fight through it, just simply did not have it in him. He looked like a child bouncing off of a 350 lb man. Joe stopped short as well. So, as neither of our guards could/were willing to fight through the screens, a Knick walks around them for the lay in. They did this over and over again to Bibby, no adjustments were made.
Trojan
February 17th, 2011
1:30 pm
1. Bibby is the worst starting PG in the league. Actually he is MUCH worst than most 2nd string PG’s.
2. Bibby is the worst defensive PG in the league.
3. Our offseason plans are to let JC1 go and not replace him. The salary cap will be lower. We will get a couple of minimum guys, that’s all.
4. Larry Drew must be the common thread to lack of development of guards.
5. We have the poorest constructed team in the NBA.
6. We really don’t have hope for any better.