Atlanta Hawks: Is Bibby beat down?

The calendar says Bibby will be 33 in May, so he’s still a young man in the real world. But in NBA terms, it means Bibby is in the twilight of a distinguished career that is at 1013 games (including playoffs) and counting.

The numbers say Bibby’s offensive production and efficiency have fallen off as the season grows longer, even when viewing them in the narrow context of his role as a spot-up shooter. That suggests that Bibby might be wearing down as the season approaches the All-Star break.

Even Bibby, not one to usually give much credence to his age as a limiting factor, acknowledges that he doesn’t quite have the same bounce at this time of year as seasons past.

“It’s different,” he said. “I can definitely feel . . . I am not going to say I feel my age. Because what I still do out there is I’ve catered myself to the roll of taking care of the team and making sure everybody is doing what they need to be doing and making sure they have fun and do what it takes to win.”

L.D. said the video evidence also suggests Bibby is tiring. But he said he has no plans to systemically reduce Bibby’s minutes after they increased from October/November to December to January.

“He may be experiencing a little [fatigue],” he said. “I have been watching a lot of film of him earlier in the season versus now, and clearly you can see a difference in how he’s moving. And his legs may be a little tired. It won’t be a situation of me giving up on him or me really cutting his minutes down. If I cut his minutes down, it will only be because of how the game is going, [if] we are in a pretty good rhythm.”

Drew said Atlanta’s W at Washington was such a case. Bibby sat for the final 17 minutes as L.D. opted to close with a Jamal/J.J./Damien/Marvin/Smoove alignment (sans injured Al).

“In those type situations, those will be the times when he will be limited, especially in the second half,” L.D. said. “But for the most part his minutes will stay consistent.”

Bibby’s outside shooting, meanwhile, is on a downward trend both in terms of his 3-point shooting and his attempts from 16 to 23 feet. He has a knack for getting open for the latter shot type by using pump fakes or a quick step-in after the catch, but the Hoopdate shot location stats show that he’s taking fewer of those attempts and making them less often without the benefit of an assist.

(Complied using data from Hoopdata.com)

Playing 18 games in October/November, Bibby was 38 of 73 on 3-pointers (52.1 percent). He made 19 of 49 attempts from 16 to 23 feet (38.8 percent) with 10 of them (53 percent) assisted.

Playing 17 games in December, Bibby was 33 of 73 on 3-pointers (45.2 percent). He made 24 of 53 attempts from 16 to 23 feet (45.3 percent) with 13 of them (54 percent) assisted.

Playing 13 games in January, Bibby was 26 of 67 on 3-pointers (38.8 percent). He made 4 of 20 attempts from 16 to 23 feet (20 percent) with three of them assisted (75 percent).

Playing three games in February, Bibby is 4 of 15 on 3-pointers (26.7 percent). He has made 0 of 4 attempts from 16 to 23 feet.

Considering his defensive limitations and relative lack of production as a playmaker, Bibby obviously is much less valuable to the Hawks if he’s not making shots at a high clip.

“Everybody looks at it like I am not scoring as much, but I really don’t have to,” Bibby said. “We’ve got three All-Stars [he's counting Josh] and the sixth man of the year. My job is not to score. My main thing I want to do is when that ball makes it around to me, make the shot and kind of spread the floor for them.”

With the recent dip in shooting, Bibby’s season percentage on shots from 16 to 23 feet (38) is now less than the league average (39.4). His 3-point percentage (44) is still well above the league average (36).

Bibby likens his current situation to his time in Sacramento. He was younger then but he played more minutes and carried a bigger offensive burden than he does now.

“You always need a break,” he said. “Everybody always says it isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon. It takes a toll on your body. Everybody always sees the glamorous parts. . . . No one gets to see the grind. I’ve been preparing myself for this grind. I am not like I was when I was younger, to where I could go full-fledged practice every day, all day, for nine months straight. I let [Drew] know how I am feeling the next day and stuff like that. Coming from coaches that have played, they understand.”

Injury report

Al, still recuperating from his fall, sat out practice today. He was in the training room so I didn’t get to check with him but he told Ken S. the other night he would play tomorrow against the Sixers.

“I am sure Wally [Blase] will be listening to Al to see how he feels,” L.D. said. “If he feels like he can go, I am sure he will let him go.”

J.J. also didn’t practice because of some tendinitis in his left knee that he termed “no big deal.” He said he will play against the Sixers.

Smoove was limited because of his left knee but he’s expected to play tomorrow, too.

Only Al appears on the Hawks’ injury report.

Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat

184 comments Add your comment

ag

February 7th, 2011
5:34 pm

ag

February 7th, 2011
5:38 pm

Watching the game vs. the Clips, Teague did okay. I just don’t see why he get’s DNP’s. Even if the young guy makes mistakes, I have said I would love seeing him play 20 minutes and play more witht he starters. Could you imagine his drive and dish to Josh and Al?(instead to ZaZa and whomever). He can go to the hole anytime he wants. According to hopinion, they have some good stats on Teague and Bret Lagree seems to be pretty high on him.

ATL FAN

February 7th, 2011
5:38 pm

Nice article

Go Heels!

February 7th, 2011
5:46 pm

LDII is a dirt ball

ag

February 7th, 2011
5:52 pm

Reading were if the Suns deal Nash, they will also deal his buddy Grant. Imagine those two in a Hawks uniform! Nash will make the Hawks an instant contender and Grant will replace Marvin nicely. Have to do the trade machine to see what works, but they should not give up the “core” – Josh, Al, & Joe

slimjr

February 7th, 2011
5:53 pm

LD read my lips: “START JEFF TEAGUE YESTERDAY”

Bibby is running on FUMES…….He now official belongs to the old geezer club……………lol….

StottsEra

February 7th, 2011
5:57 pm

some of those percentages are wrong – > 32 of 73 on 3-pointers (52.1 percent). not true

StottsEra

February 7th, 2011
5:58 pm

also, this shows that Teague is no worse than bibby, thanks Bret http://www.hoopinionblog.com/2011/02/production-is-in-eye-of-beholder.html

Westurd

February 7th, 2011
5:59 pm

Jeff aint all that guys….if you’ve been watching Teague in game time situations he sort of floats around the court. If you watch him during time outs he is sort of watching the jumbo tron to see who is on kiss cam. Yes Bibby is tired, but Teague is a difficult solution to the problem. I have been in Teagues corner for a long time, but am starting to give up hope.
LD has to be given some credit to his magnagement of the line up this year. Even now with Bibby being burnt he is still trying to play with the limited line up which usually means Teague must continue to stay out. Do you ever ask your self why none of the players ever come to Teagues defense? I just think Teague isn’t that hungry to be in this league and is assuming he will just inherit Bibbys time and not have to earn it.

O'Brien

February 7th, 2011
6:00 pm

Good writeup MC.

But I’m confused. The video evidence that LD is watching suggests Bibby is getting tired, Bibby also implied that he is feeling tired ( he said he does not have the bounce he had earlier in the year), and his production has declined every month since the season started.

But yet…LD said he has no plans to cut his minutes? Huh?

Ray

February 7th, 2011
6:02 pm

@ ag

I agree I think it’s high time for teague to take his lumps with the starting unit.

I say LD needs to stop playing scared and just let the man play. At this rate he’ll be just like the PG’s under Woodson before him. Which is sad cause the way I see it teague has the ability to be at least a great PG maybe not Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, CP3, but he could be As good as Russell Westbrook, Raymond Felton.

For pete sake if someone is suppose to be the future of the team why aren’t they letting him play with the starters maybe not all the time, but at least a little bit.

Westurd

February 7th, 2011
6:02 pm

Stotts,
Even if Teagues numbers are a bit better the team probably plays a lot better with the leadership and familiarity of Bibby. I don’t think that shows up in the numbers.

DHD

February 7th, 2011
6:03 pm

Aaron Brooks

Trojan

February 7th, 2011
6:04 pm

Larry: That sounds like a crappy plan you have.

Kevin Anderson

February 7th, 2011
6:05 pm

Bibby is old I agree, but he runs our offense perfectly. If you dont understand that you dont understand the position of PG.

Ray

February 7th, 2011
6:06 pm

@Westurd

Honestly I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone on the team come to another’s defense outside the starting 5(original starting 5 not the JC starting line-up).

FYI...

February 7th, 2011
6:11 pm

Errors on percentages/stats in here… 32 of 73 isn’t 52.1%, 10 of 19 isn’t 63 percent, and so on. Need a math check on that whole section from hoopdata.

Also, as long as we are talking trends, see 2009-10 for splits on shooting trends. It might be worth pointing out, that as long as we are asking the question, “Is Bibby beat down?,” that we might be asking the wrong question. The real question might be, “Will Bibby rebound in shooting exactly like he did last year once the page turns from Feb. to March?”

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bibbymi01/splits/2010/

Maybe the real question is “If Bibby shoots 38% from 16-28 feet and 44% from 3pt, why is he ever shooting anything that isn’t a layup or a three?”

MJC

February 7th, 2011
6:12 pm

Kevin Anderson

February 7th, 2011
6:05 pm

Bibby is old I agree, but he runs our offense perfectly. If you dont understand that you dont understand the position of PG.
—————————————–

Bibby is a huge defensive liability at this time in his career. The fact that he isn’t making shots to go with that shows that he is starting to wear down extremely quick.

Michael Cunningham

February 7th, 2011
6:13 pm

@O’Brien: “But I’m confused. The video evidence that LD is watching suggests Bibby is getting tired, Bibby also implied that he is feeling tired ( he said he does not have the bounce he had earlier in the year), and his production has declined every month since the season started. But yet…LD said he has no plans to cut his minutes? Huh?”

my guess is that if L.D. actually does plan to cut those minutes, he doesn’t want it to sound like he’s doing so because Bibby is wearing down even if that’s the reason he does it. at least i think that’s what is going on with that.

slimjr

February 7th, 2011
6:13 pm

LD, you must get Teague battle tested for the playoffs asap…Bibby will get crushed again in the playoffs.

Chad

February 7th, 2011
6:14 pm

The only logical reason I can think of as to why Drew wouldn’t decrease Bibby’s minutes is …. no I can’t think of one.

O'Brien

February 7th, 2011
6:18 pm

MC,

Your math is wrong. “Playing 18 games in October/November, Bibby was 32 of 73 on 3-pointers (52.1 percent)..

32 of 73 is 43.8%, not 52.1%.

Ray

February 7th, 2011
6:24 pm

@ slimjr

It’s too late for teague to be battle tested for the playoffs as it seems he didn’t care the first 41 games if you know what I mean.

Seriously now is a good time for the end of the bench including JC2 and Etan Thomas to show what they are worth to the team even Powell.

StottsEra

February 7th, 2011
6:26 pm

you are WAY over rating “leadership and familiarity of Bibby”. browse around hoopinion, there is proof EVERYWHERE that Teague is just as good as Bibby

when you do your self assessment of Teague, and if you’re not going to use stats, at least assess him when he is not paired up with jordan crawford or wilkins in the backcourt

drmaryb (*_*)

February 7th, 2011
6:34 pm

Teague does not know how to run the offense and doesn’t know where all the guys should be at on the floor, he does not talk on offense nor defense. Does not fight through screens. He just basically walks the ball up like he is Bibby.

He is supposed to run like john wall does, every time out. I’m here screaming at the TV, “Run Fool, Run!”. I thought he had some gears?

doc

February 7th, 2011
6:38 pm

bibby, was pretty beat down when he got here after his thumb surgery then spraining an ankle. he really never got in shape that season; he never has looked to comfortable moving since then. i remember him a little different from his days in sac and just dont see any signs of resurgence physically from day one only decline. he was supposed to lead the break and it just hasnt happened. now what can be done to correct this long standing flaw in the hawks game.

Astro Joe

February 7th, 2011
6:40 pm

I still believe the PG issue belongs to Sund… he put all of the eggs in an aging Bibby and an unproven Teague to start the season. A coach can only play the hand he’s dealt, time for Sund to earn his February paycheck.

Ray

February 7th, 2011
6:40 pm

@ drmaryb

That’s something that Teague is going to have to learn though don’t know if their coaching him right.

Far as I’m concerned the major thing missing for Teague is a Jumpshot if he gets that he’s already on par with Westbrook and a few others. Then if he learns to run a offense to perfection well you know what happens after that lol.

I think he’ll get it one day, but right now it’s only year 2 we’ve given Josh and Marvin like 7 and 6 years I know what most of ya’ll say about Marvin, and sometimes Josh, but I’m like at least give teague to about year 4 or so.

Now what I will say is this upcoming draft we should draft another PG to compete with Teague cause it probably will cause him to actually fight for the job. If he’s not fighting for it right now the only reason probably is that he sees Bibby slowing down like everyone else does.

doc

February 7th, 2011
6:41 pm

classic teague was on display on friday, on one end he misses going for a steal and looks around like what happened? on the other end he penetrates and gets his lay up swatted away. too much of that is what i have seen.

Astro Joe

February 7th, 2011
6:43 pm

Of course, most players are tired at this point of the season… the All-Star break isn’t just a showcase for the a few dozen NBA players, it also gives guys a chance to reenergize as well.

lewis

February 7th, 2011
6:43 pm

But he’s not hitting ANYTHING lately.
Bibby only benefits the team if he hits his 3’s.
He is freaking 33 years old and has played a ton of minutes in his career

I’m not saying make Teague the starter, but at least make him a true backup. Its not like we’re going to win anything this year

ag

February 7th, 2011
6:44 pm

Westurd, I have watched the games and watched Teague dunk on people, make steals, rebound, etc. The only time he takes a more passive roll is when Jamal is in the game, he tends to give it to him and go to the corner. He played good ball when Jamal was hurt. Watching the kid play gives me the impression he has game. He will make mistakes. He does look aloof during the timeouts.
PLAY JEFF TEAGUE

Luke M

February 7th, 2011
6:47 pm

Is Jake Gylenhaal a dream boat?

(Yes, of course Bibby is beat down, washed up, and absolutely useless.)

Grandad

February 7th, 2011
6:51 pm

* 1st @ KevinM;
Amir Johnson is not a clone of our Bigs.
He reportedly has grown 2 inches since being drafted by Pistons.
*[out of HS]
That would make him 6-11 with proportionate wing-span.
(long and lean)
Shot blocker, rim defender! Almost a 60% fg shooter.
Contract = reasonable, especially since he is a burgeoning talent.
Plays hard with a motor ! Only 23 and already been in the league 5 yrs.
What’s not to like?

** Amir Johnson ** … G-dad’s~~~bandwagon … jump on !!!
! Sund ! … Git ‘er done.

ag

February 7th, 2011
6:52 pm

Doc, you mention Friday night he had his shot blocked and misses going for a steal, but he scored on a nice floater going to the hole. He was 1-3 with an offensive rebound (the shot that was blocked) in SIX minutes. Bibby was 0-6 (0-5 3fg)3 ast 3 rbs in 26 minutes

tyger

February 7th, 2011
6:53 pm

Interested to see how LD shapes his rotation down the stretch. Horford’s injury allowed ZaZa a rare start and he responded. Damien Wilkens also came thru down the stretch vs. the Wizards when Crawford didn’t have it. Those two and possibly Evans, Powell could be X-factors down the stretch.

I think its still appropriate to give Bibby the ceremonial start, but he’s nothing more than a spot-shooter and setup man at this point. His value is diminishing rapidly, don’t think he really has another useful year in his tank. The spirit is willing but the legs cannot. Teams are aggressively attacking him at-will now. And Teague is no salve; I think that experiment is about over.

It appears Jamal Crawford and Damien will be given the opportunity in the backcourt. Damien was a useful player at one time, he appears overweight and rusty, but still flashes game. Hopefully, LD can whip him into shape over the next few weeks, he could be a nice find for Sund.

ZaZa needs minutes – he has the low post game to get easy baskets, but his minutes are so few and far in between that he gets no calls from the refs. I’ve seen teams hack him mercilessly over that past few games. Other name brand players would get 50% of those calls.

The latter half of February and March will be a test. I wish they would pick up a quick point from the Dleague or somewhere to help fill at least one void.

drmaryb (*_*)

February 7th, 2011
6:54 pm

Teague Time!

Really tired of talking about Teague. He need to see the Wizard and get a Heart!
I read where Drew said, Josh knows everybody’s position on the floor, where they should be at and when. His nifty passes are more about premonitions than anything else. Josh, literally sees the play before it develops and puts the ball on the money. ZaZa and Marvin usually fumbles those passes out of bounds, by virtue of being out of position. I don’t think Powell knows any of the called motion sets at all. Many times we don’t see the motion offense being run, due to the personnel on the floor.

Sometimes the team looks really organized and at times, not so much. I guess that’s due to all the untimely injuries. Sund, needs to go get himself a PG or I and many others will find better things to do on week nights and weekends.

Grandad

February 7th, 2011
6:59 pm

* Concerning Bibby:

(1) LD recognizes he is tired.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Bibby said he is letting LD know, i e practice etc.
[Kobe never practices]
Cutting min is not the end all for resting a player.

(2) the scedule lets up some in the 2nd half – correct.

(3) Teague is not playing?
Could he be traded @ the deadline?

(4) Trust our Coach.

(5) Jamal & Joe are our back-up pgs. [not Teague]

O'Brien

February 7th, 2011
7:05 pm

Grandad,

Agreed on (1), but for (2), hawks actually have some tough games in the second half of the season. (3) Rick will not get much for Teague. I go back and forth on (4), because LD’s words and his actions dont always match up. Agreed on (5).

O'Brien

February 7th, 2011
7:06 pm

To be fair, Bibby’s post season average the last 2 years;

2009-2010; 8.5 pts, 2.5 assists, 2 rebounds, 45% from the field, and 42% from behind the arc in 26.5 minutes per game

2008-2009; 13.2 pts, 4 assists, 3 rebounds, 46% from the field, 54% from behind the arc in 35.5 minutes per game.

And nobody can really say Bibby is the main reason why we got swept in the playoffs the last 2 years, because he is only part of the problem.

Is teague part of the solution? maybe, maybe not.

AJ,

My guess is LD hyped up Teague (Rick’s first draft pick) to Rick, saying Teague could earn the starting position if he plays well enough etc. And with LD being a former PG, maybe Rick thought Teague would have been playing major minutes by now.

It is for this reason why I don’t think LD is the only one to blame for Teague’s inconsistent PT and development. Teague has to accept a big part of the blame as well.

But if there is one thing we know about Rick, is that he is reactive, not proactive. So I’m not surprised no move was made or will be made.

Jay

February 7th, 2011
7:09 pm

Bibby is done. The stats don’t like. The problem is compounded by the fact at Teague isn’t any good. Once again, we have a point guard problem.

Michael Cunningham…any legs on the rumor that the Hawks called the Suns about Nash?

drmaryb (*_*)

February 7th, 2011
7:10 pm

Might as well give Jordan a look at point. I read on hoopshype last weekend that Kobe and Jamal are the #1 and #2 Black Holes of the League. The ball goes in but, it never comes back out! I know Jamal is our gunner, but he is not a willing passer. Much like Jordan Crawford, who is waiting in the wings to take over that Gunner job next season for a fraction of the cost. How ironic that they have the same names for goodness sakes. Jordan can just slide into Jamal’s jersey?

Having said that, Jamal will not be that easily replaced, if at all. He should get a new contract IMHO.

Michael Cunningham

February 7th, 2011
7:13 pm

@O’Brien, FYI: the numbers have since been changed, tnx . . .

Ken Strickland

February 7th, 2011
7:14 pm

OBRIEN-LDrew is implying that he has no intention of giving Teague any additional mins or opportunities. Right after making that stupid comment about him not reducing Bibby’s mins, even though both he and Bibby acknowledged a case of fatigue, he gave an example of resting Bibby by pointing to the 17 mins he sat him in the 2nd half of our last gm.

Bibby said he doesn’t feel it’s his job to score, but when you generate only 3.6APG, and dropping, and seldom create easy scoring opportunities for your teammates, as well as being a definite DEF liability, WHAT IN THE HELL DOES HE THINK HE’S SUPPOSED TO DO, IF NOT SCORE? Before the season started, LDrew kept stating Teague would get every opportunity to replace Bibby, and Bibby responded by playing good ball. Now that he knows LDrew will protect him and his mins, just like Woodson did, he’s become complacent and is now making excuses for his poor scoring.

UGA

February 7th, 2011
7:15 pm

TJ Ford is not playing a lick in Indy. I’d like to see us get him here. He is a FA after this year. Obviously there is no confidence in Teague.

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Atlanta Hawks Buzz, Michael Cunningham. Michael Cunningham said: Atlanta Hawks: Is Bibby beat down? http://bit.ly/e6AqTx [...]

drmaryb (*_*)

February 7th, 2011
7:23 pm

Teague’s upside may be that of Royal Ivey or Rajon Rondo! Who knows, I wish the kid had a pulse or a facial expression. He hasn’t earned the status to be like Joe – flat affect.

drmaryb (*_*)

February 7th, 2011
7:29 pm

TJ Ford has a congenital spinal stenosis (a narrowing of the spinal canal – hereditary). I believe Marquis Daniels has the same condition in Boston.

Do yall really want another Speedy Claxton or Alan ‘Hindu’ Henderson on that there bench! I’m tired of Freaking left overs! I want some Prime Rib or a Porter House Steak – Maane!

Bump That! …. Rag Tag Bunch and them Grandma’s 2 day old biscuits!

superiorblogman

February 7th, 2011
7:32 pm

Two-plus weeks until the trade deadline, and the Carmelo Circus aside, along with those guys who everyone knows are on the block — like the Nets’ Troy Murphy and the Knicks’ Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry — here are the guys that, according to front office sources around the league, are eminently gettable before Feb. 24: Golden State center Andris Biedrins, Memphis guard O.J. Mayo, Lakers forward Ron Artest, Portland centers Marcus Camby and Joel Przybilla, Philadelphia forward Andre Iguodala, Phoenix forward Josh Childress, Washington forward Rashard Lewis, Detroit guard Rip Hamilton, Cleveland forward Antawn Jamison, Minnesota guard Jonny Flynn, Charlotte forwards Stephen Jackson and Boris Diaw and Houston forward Jared Jeffries. NBA.com

no justice

February 7th, 2011
7:54 pm

There is one way Teague can start or get significant minutes on this team. Bibby will have to break both legs. I’m not sure he will start or get minutes even then. Joe and Jamal will probably get the call. Jeff maybe able to start on a D-League team, maybe!