Atlanta Hawks: Hawks 100, Raptors 87
There was no stopping J.J. (AP Photo)
- Perhaps the Hawks lose tonight to a better opponent than these downtrodden Raptors. Chances are it wouldn’t have been so easy to score against a team that actually can play defense. And Atlanta’s half-quarter of respectable D wouldn’t get it done against most teams since they have better offensive talent than the Barbosa- and Kleiza-less Raps.
- From an aesthetics standpoint, Atlanta’s offensive performance (especially J.J.) was a pleasure. Needing a big third quarter from Mo and a fantastic final period from J.J. to win a game in which the Hawks couldn’t have been much better on offense doesn’t do much for their credentials in the big picture.
- “We played very unselfishly,” L.D. said. “The offense was there. The defense was non-existent in the fist half.”
- J.J. was superb. It’s fascinating to watch him work when he’s going like this. He was in complete control, getting to the places he wanted on the court, passing when he should, making tough shots when he had to.
- Interesting, though, that the first thing L.D. said about Joe’s game was: “He’s got to pick up his rebound total.”
- “But he’s playing very unselfishly,” Drew said. “He’s getting into a rhythm. I think we are doing a good job moving him around to different spots offensively. And I think our guys are reading defenses. We put him in the post and they play him on one side, we are getting the ball to him on the other.”
- Remember when opponents still were doubling J.J. even though he couldn’t make shots? Now it’s a sound strategy, especially when you have the likes of Sonny Weems trying to keep him away from the basket. J.J. had eight assists against two turnovers.
- “I think everybody on the team understands if I am getting doubled and they are open I am going to make the extra pass,” Joe said. “Tonight I was just trying to get into the teeth of the defense and when I got double teamed, I was just trying to find the open man.”
- My blog people know that it’s not always like that with Joe. But it’s fair to say it rings more true now than at any point in the recent past.
- J.J. on playing fewer minutes (and games) this year: “It has helped me in a lot of ways. My body is feeling pretty good and it makes me be more aggressive when I am in the game knowing my time is a little limited.”
- Both of Atlanta’s starting big men were facilitators. Al needed 13 shots for his 12 points but had 14 rebounds and seven assists. Smoove was making his jump shots early, missed a couple late, but was 9 of 14 from the floor and had 11 rebounds and four assists.
- Bibby still is good at slipping into spots to get his shot. He’ just not making them nearly as much as he once did.
- Zaza had six points on two shots and six rebounds in 17 minutes. If only he could finish more of those chances around the basket. He works hard enough to deserve them.
- Mo started in place of Marvin had 10 of Atlanta’s 21 points in the third quarter. Poor Raps. They finally controlled Joe, Josh and Al, only to have Mo go off.
- Jamal only took six shots in 28 minutes. L.D. wanted him to focus on getting dribble penetration and finding open teammates and he did so while recording four assists with one turnover. He also got three free-throw attempts, which in this game tied him for the team high.
- Neither Josh nor Al attempted a free throw despite 27 shots between them. Bibby, Mo, Teague and Damien also didn’t get to the line. That’s five Hawks players playing a total of 130 minutes combined without attempting a free-throw.
- The 18-6 advantage on free throws is one way the Raps stayed close despite Atlanta’s sizzling shooting. Another was the 11 offensive rebounds for 13 second-chance points.
- The Raps were within 84-78 with 7:30 to play because they kept getting extra possessions. The Hawks kept them off the boards over the next three-plus minutes, made four of their five shots (all assisted with two each from Bibby and Smoove) and were up 96-78.
- “We were giving up too many offensive rebounds early on,” Josh said. “We was able to limit them to one shot, make them work at their end and we was able to get out and have fun.”
- Toronto actually had five offensive rebounds over the final seven minutes (though two were team rebounds in garbage time). Just goes to show you that the Hawks really only played defense for short spurts and won only because the Raps couldn’t stop them.
- L.D. seemed particularly mindful of not having too many bench guys out there at once.
- “I wanted to establish some type of rhythm with the rotations tonight,” he said. “I wanted to keep a couple of the starters out there with three of the reserves. Tonight I was able to do it because we didn’t get into any kind of foul trouble. That’s pretty much what I’ve always tried to do but sometimes fouls and [injuries] dictate that.”
Michael Cunningham, Hawks beat
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112 comments Add your comment
KevinM
February 3rd, 2011
11:03 am
ICECOLD, I like Zaza, Teague and Marvin for Billups…..projected to give us 7+ wins….while not on the frontburner for the Nuggets, but in place should Carmelo and the fire sale start…..and we know the Nuggets will want a couple of draft picks….give the Nuggets one crack at it…..and promote it to the fans of Atlanta that you are somehow ‘trying’ to have championship aspirations.
ICECOLD
February 3rd, 2011
11:06 am
they get to move one of they bigs… they get jeff teague, marvin williams, zaza, and mo evans… and a first round pick if they want it … every person that i just offered give energy and some are yound except etan thomas, he is just their as a back up center.. . so it would help them with energy and youth..
then the Hawks get Paul Gasol.. and can finally move Josh Smith to small forward, Al to Power forward, and Paul Gasol to the 5 or 4 or what ever
Starting five would be
Mike Bibby
Joe Johnson
Josh Smith
Al Horford
Paul Gasol
bench
Jamal Crawford ( point Guard or shooting guard )
Jordan Crawford ( real playing time and back up point guard)
Damien Wilkins ( think He is a small forward )
Josh Powell ( he needs to play a lot more but cant play because of all that excess weight )
Jason Collins ( same as Josh Powell )
Still Have Pape Sy on the bench if we need him, and Im sure we could get somebody else, probally another big and a small forward off the bench from another team for that trade exception that we had for Josh Childress, and a next year first and second round pick…
Since we moved marvin, we could resign Jamal Crawford to a real contract after the season…
to me, this is a elite team and a bench that is decent with two true scorers, and 3 defensive minded players!!…
Andrew Bynum stays injured, I wouldn’t want him
Go Hawks!!
ICECOLD
February 3rd, 2011
11:12 am
I dont believe the Nuggets are going to be able to trade Melo by the trade deadline, which means they will not give up Billups.. at least not until he is gon… and this trade with Paul Gasol would help both sides and might actually seeing each other in the finals this year because both sides get what they want… of course Lakers get no super star, but they still have Kobe… and everybody that the Hawks would trade would definitely contribute on defense….
Paul would Help the Hawks because thats what we need … and we get rid of dead weight!!
jond
February 3rd, 2011
11:15 am
Not real thrilled with Jamal’s body language last night. During the timeout around the 4:15 mark of the 4th quarter while his teammates slapped fives he walked around the group to the end of the bench and sulked. Hopefully he was just upset with his play and this is not a sign of things to come. Still it was a good win versus an overmatched opponent.
KevinM
February 3rd, 2011
11:22 am
OB, I flashback to the JS draft choice and I thought BK was really reaching but he had a type of player in mind….long, athletic and interchangeable. JS has turned out to be exciting and for a long time I thought he was the replacement to the excitement that Dominique brought to the team. There are some serious differences in their personalities though, because JS has issues in the 1/2 court which is what playoff basketball is all about. Dominique always led by example and I don’t recall seeing Dominique expressing so much disgust with calls that didn’t go his way.
But, to move forward, I think its quite possible this team could improve by what JS could bring in a trade to shore up a weakness on our team. I think Powell could be a effective backup behind Al at the 4.
Back then, I coveted Jameer Nelson, and truth be known, he would have been a good running mate with Joe. But then again, there might not be a highlight factory huh?
With the overlap we have at PF and SG, we could use a bigger defensive presence and a Billups type to lead on the court.
ATLSportsNation
February 3rd, 2011
11:27 am
If you’re an Atlanta/Georgia Sports fan and want to talk with other fans, check out our NEW message board.
http://www.atlsportsnation.com/forum
We have team forums for the Falcons, Bulldogs, Hawks, Braves, Yellow Jackets, Thrashers, etc. Please register and post! Be apart of a huge site in the early days of existence. See ya there!
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
11:30 am
The Hawks are 5-12 against teams about .500…………….Is that improvement Sund??????? 28th in rebounding….Is that improvement Sund????? Have no fear your playoff meltdown is comin, just hang in there………………………………..
Sund=Needs to kick rocks……………………..Along with Ownership
sam'l
February 3rd, 2011
11:32 am
If MC can say with such conviction the Hawks did not play defense for more than 3 quarters, it should be pretty obvious to everyone, including Sund, Gearon, Drew, his assistants, the players who play and the players who sit on the bench as well as the fans and the other teams in the league if they’re paying attention.
Why are highly coached and highly paid professional basketball players NOT playing defense?
Newsflash. The Hawks aren’t getting Gasol. The only way the Lakers got Gasol was a sweetheart deal via the Jerry West Grizzlies lakers connection, the same type deal that sent Garnett to Boston via the Danny Ainge- McHale conduit. The Hawks are clearly not in the loop, and up until recent success were pretty much the showcase of what an NBA team should not be. (Actually, I like being an outsider, but outsiders must practice hard at all points, show determination, PLAY DEFENSE as if their life depended on it,and band together like brothers and when they pull players in the family, they must develop the players….like San Antonio.. with a firm guiding hand……) That means also they must have a scouting network that knows something about each prospect.
sorry, I’m on a rant, while everyone else is making fantasy trades with an emphasis on FANTASY!
coolio
February 3rd, 2011
11:37 am
ICECOLD
Man you rite about these wish washy people on here.Damn Kobe don’t play good every night.But when you a fan of a team u sit here and degrate the players cuz they off and cnt nun of yall do better.Yall silly
ag
February 3rd, 2011
11:48 am
I am very happy that Joe is playing well, but the regular season is not when he struggles. He struggles when we need him the most. He is the great singer in the bathroom that freezes up on stage. I sure hope we don’t have a repeat performance. As for Teague, I see a lot of good things that he does. Again, ZaZa makes more mistakes than anyone on the team. Teague needs minutes on the floor – even minutes with the starters to get better. That kid can get to the hole anytime he wants and he showed that last night! He is also great at penetrating and dishing (Even ZaZa didn’t mess it up!)
Big Daddy
February 3rd, 2011
12:00 pm
The Lakers are not going to trade Pau Gasol. He is too valuable to them, particularly if Bynum goes down. There is nobody on our team I could thnk of they would want with the possible exception of Al. Anybody they bring in is going to have to be willing to work within the framework of the triangle offense. So, who on our team do you think could execute that well? By the way, do you know who drafted Pau? The Atlanta Hawks!!! They then traded his rights to Memphis for Shareef Adur-Rahim while Pau Gasol went on to be the Rookie Of The Year.
We have our problems at the 1 spot more than anywhere else. We have a center who probably is going to make the All-Star team. The other night before the Mavericks game, on the screen, I was watching, some stats flashed on the screen about Josh. I only remember the first stat but it said he is the only player in the NBA to have 750 points, so many rebounds, blocked shots, assists, etc. I thought wow, he is not going anywhere. Everybody can’t score on the team but Marvin is a decent defender at SF. Joe and Jamaal have the SG position down. So that leaves the point. On some nights Bibby is like lights out on assist and spot up 3’s. However, those nights are becoming fewer and fewer. I don’t know if Teague will ever get over his lack of aggression. It appears both Woody and LD have come to the conclusion, probably not. I think he is playing now so that he might be attractive to someone in a trade, probably a package deal. We just have to be very careful so that we don’t get another Speedy Claxton.
Right now, it is hard to see the promise of this team doing any better in the playoffs than last year except maybe wining 1 game in the 2nd level, if they get there. With the CBA looming, most are probably staying pat unless they believe they have to make a move. Hope springs eternal for me about my team and I will keep on supporting them. I just hope in the off season or draft they will be able to find someone who can be the point guard we have been looking for.
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
12:00 pm
Icecold
they get jeff teague, marvin williams, zaza, and mo evans
This trade really makes sense for the Lakers.
Who only won the title 2 years in a row, and haven’t been healthy not one time when they did it.
You do realize that Shannon Brown has the same ppg average as Marvin, but plays 11 minutes less per game.
If the Lakers did that trade they would be considered the dumbest franchise in sports.
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2011
12:06 pm
NAJEH-I took a look at the overall stats of the SG’s in the NBA, and here’s what I found.
1-Only DWade, KBryant, MEllis, EGordon and KMartin score more PPG than JJ.
2-Of this group, only MEllis has more APG, only DWade has more RPG, and only DMartin and KBryant play fewer MPG than JJ.
Other than DWade and KBryant, and based on overall offensive and defensive ability, what other SG would you take over JJ, who’s the NBA’s 3rd best SG, based on his 3rd string All NBA selection. I can see him being considered 2nd tier among that select group, but I believe garnering 4 consecutive ALL Star selections, and being voted 3rd string ALL NBA, qualifies him as more than just 2nd tier overall. My thinking is, any player selected All NBA is definitely top tier, while second tier is reserved for those good enough to be All Stars, but not All NBA.
Double Zero Eight
February 3rd, 2011
12:54 pm
George Bush 1 said “read my lips, no new taxes”.
Sund has basicallly said: read my lips, no new players.
There “ain’t gonna be no trade”, pardon my grammar.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
12:59 pm
“George Bush 1 said “read my lips, no new taxes”.
Sund has basicallly said: read my lips, no new players.
There “ain’t gonna be no trade”, pardon my grammar.”
LOL….
Sund=Fail…………….
Trojan
February 3rd, 2011
1:02 pm
Notice how our bigs will not give up the ball to Bibby. That is because Bibby will walk the ball up and not push the ball. We are the only team in organized basketball whose pg is the slowest player on the team.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
1:04 pm
If the Hawks were 12-5 against above .500 teams instead of 5-12 I believe Hawks fans would more confidence were this team was headed regardless of their overall record to date… But it is what it is SUND………..
A massacre waiting to happen again
Trojan
February 3rd, 2011
1:04 pm
Big Daddy, I agree with you. Sometimes Bibby is lights out with his assist. Sometimes he get 3 a game! Outstanding!
Double Zero Eight
February 3rd, 2011
1:04 pm
When we get to the playoffs, LD will be forced to play
Teague, if we make it to the second round.
It will be “baptism by fire” and it most likely will not
be pretty, unless he gets more playing time before
the season ends.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
1:06 pm
MB is running on fumes, start Teague yesterday LD…………………
JeJe
February 3rd, 2011
1:09 pm
JJ > Melo overall. Better defender.
Dumb trade trading for Melo.
We have no Point Guard and no Small Forward = Fail
LOL @ Sund
Worst GM in sports. As someone else said, he only speaks of positives, compares us to when this team sucked so we looked better, and is very vague when talking tough issues.
Is this guy still on vacation?
O'Brien
February 3rd, 2011
1:13 pm
KevinM,
I like Josh too. But because Al is able to play PF full time, I am ok with trading Josh if it will improve the team overall (maybe we get an upgrade at center or PG).
And as good as Josh is, he has been in the league 7 years, and there are still issues with his focus, his mentality, and knowing what was a good shot. So there is still more room for him to improve.
And I think thats one of the things the Hawks are concerned about. Imagine if they trade him, and he finally “gets it” all? Dude could average 18, 10, 4,2,and 2.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
1:15 pm
“Toronto actually had five offensive rebounds over the final seven minutes (though two were team rebounds in garbage time). Just goes to show you that the Hawks really only played defense for short spurts and won only because the Raps couldn’t stop them.”MC
Oh no Sund even your beat writer can see through your bull, by what you present to us on the hardwoods….
The Hawks should have blown this lousy team out be 25, but the Hawks are who we thought they were..
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
1:21 pm
Sund has been on “vacation” for 31+ years.. Who is this guy??? Was his daddy a founding member of the NBA or something???
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2011
1:28 pm
BIG DADDY-excellent points.
I have a question. When you use a trade exemption to reduce the amount of salary taken back in a trade, is that exempted salary still added to your cap and luxury tax figures? If not, the Hawks would be foolish not to try and make a trade for either JCalderon or DHarris, especially if either team is looking to save money.
Calderon’s annual salary is $9M. We could offer JTeague($1.476M) and MEvans($2.5M), which totals $3.976Mx1.25%=$4.97M. We add the $3.6M trade exemption and get $8.57M, which works perfectly. That would immediately save them $5.024M, and another $2.5M when MEvans’ contract expires at the end of the season. Their total savings would be $7.54M, and they’d also have Calderon’s potential replacement.
A JCrawford($1.8M) for DHarris($8.9M) would work perfectly as well. DHarris’s scoring ability would help replace most of the scoring we currently get from Jamal, with Jordan Crawford making up any difference as Jamal’s replacement. Playing about the same MPG that Bibby currently plays, he’d double Bibby’s pitiful 3.7APG, which would be a double benefit. He’d also provide better DEF, more versatility, and a totally new dynamic, with his superior speed, quickness, athleticism, ability to penetrate, attack DEF’s, and create easier scoring opporunities for his teammates. Basically, acquiring him would literally be the equivalent of killing several birds with just one stone.
Acquiring either PG would place Bibby in his rightful position, and that’s coming off the bench and playing reduced mins. The 6PPG and 2APG he’s given us over the last 6gms would be far more valuable with him coming off the bench and playing 15-18MPG, instead of 30.3MPG.
ag
February 3rd, 2011
1:57 pm
Teague does give the ball to JC, but I noticed he went down the lane and set a pick under the basket on JJ defender as JJ rolled out and got a pass. So he is not just standing around. I see a lot more standing out of Marvin. The only way for the “core” to stay is if we see an improvement of Marvin. For those who want to trade Josh, at least he improves every year. Example:
10-11 season 34.8 min .496 fg% .367 3p% .734 FT% 8.9rb 1.82 blk 3.4 ast
career 33.8 min .464 fg% .283 3p% .673 FT% 7.7rb 2.29 blk 3.0 ast He is only 25 and with 7 years in the league. Even his steals are a bit higher this year than his career and avg 16.2ppg (career 14.5) So, this guy appears to have a lot of upside in his game, but has to develop mentally. Oh, if I didn’t mention, he is 25!!!!! I am sure by the time he is 30, his maturity level will be much higher.
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2011
2:07 pm
The Hawks’ next 6 gms are very winnable, which offers an excellent opportunity to gain some ground before going on the rd to meet the LA Lakers. Fortunately, we’ll have Marvin back for those gms, and his overall production will help offset Bibby’s current lack of production. His presence also takes MEvans out of the starting lineup, which adds more depth and versatility to the bench. I know most of you Marvin distractors won’t admit it, but whenever Marvin is out, we always seem to go through the same issues of inconsistency, DEF, and closing out gms.
Marvin does a good job of closing out gms, because of his DEF, rebounding, ability to penetrate and get to the FT line, and/or get key baskets.
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
2:32 pm
I have heard count blogger discuss how the Hawks can get a PG via trade, but the truth of the matter the Hawks don’t think it’s an important position to fill.
Take look at all the pg’s that were available through the draft when the Hawks made their pick
2001 – Tony Parker
2003 – Mo Williams
2004 – Jameer Nelson
2005 – Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Ray Felton, Jarret Jack, Nate Robinson, and Monte Ellis.
2006 – Rajon Rondo, Jordan Farmar
2007 – Aaron Brooks and Rodney Stuckey
Here we are in 2011 still talking about filling the pg position.
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
2:33 pm
I meant “countless bloggers”
Sautee
February 3rd, 2011
2:35 pm
Rufus1,
about this: “Indefensible….
Bibby is becoming indefensible…2-7 from 3 is becoming the norm and these shots are NBA wide open.”
“Please tell me again why Bibby is better…the offense does flow better when he is out their…just like when Luke Ridnour came in for Jennings, but most teams like to develop quick, athletic PG’s(except the Hawks)”
“PS. Jednnings shoots 38%FG”
Rufus, I’ll not defend Bibby’s play here, but to keep it real….. You say that 2-7 is becoming the norm? Actually if you go back to the game logs you’ll see a bigger picture. Take the 14 games we’ve played since the New Year. Bibby’s 3 point % in those 14 games? .378%
I would have thought lower, but as we have seen over and over, perception is NOT reality.
.378% is not as good as earlier, but still above the league average. In any case, I won’t argue in favor of Bibby playing more minutes (less would be my choice), but let’s keep our arguments set in reality. And reality is, that while Bibby is not shooting as well as he was earlier in the season, he’s STILL shooting “above average” on 3s.
Or, said another way, 2-7 is NOT becoming the norm. Unless your sample size is just the last game.
PS. Bibby is shooting .440% overall and .450% from three, so I guess I missed your point about Jennings shooting 38%.
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2011
2:42 pm
We all must come to the realization that JSmith will be the first of our core to be traded. It’s not a matter of if, but when, and for what. With JJ’s max contract, and with Josh not that far behind at #2, someone has to go if the team is to be able get what it needs to improve. Consider this: SMITH/HORORD
SALARY-$11.7/$5.44, PPG-16.1/16.2, RPG-8.9/9.9, APG-3.4/3.6, SPG-1.11/.77, BPG-2.7/1.4, MPG-34.8/35. How many of you think it would make good sense to pay an additional $6.26M to Josh just to reap an additional .71BPG and .56SPG? That’s money we could use to acquire the PG we desperately need, or the center we’d need after we traded Josh and moved Horford to PF.
After this season, if we can use both Smoove and our expiring contracts to acquire a quality center and PG, we’d definitely be a much better team and a legit title contender.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2011
3:16 pm
Ken Strickland,
“I know most of you Marvin distractors won’t admit it, but whenever Marvin is out, we always seem to go through the same issues of inconsistency, DEF, and closing out gms.
Marvin does a good job of closing out gms, because of his DEF, rebounding, ability to penetrate and get to the FT line, and/or get key baskets.”
Actually that’s not true. We have won at a higher percentage this year when Marvin has been out. The breakdown is something like we are 9-4 (69%) without him, and 22-14 (61%) with him. I think a game was left off those stats, but it still won’t change the fact that we play better without him. When Marvin is end at the end of games, which has been rare throughout his career, our defense migh be slighty better, but we really have problems scoring unless JJ is hot. 82 games says our best lineup this year is Bibby, Jamal, JJ, Smith Horford. It also says we win at the same percentage with Marvin than we do with Evans. At this point, it really does not matter if he plays or not. Evans and Wilkins can take his minutes, Wilkins actually plays better defense, and the Hawks don’t miss a beat.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 3rd, 2011
3:30 pm
“My thinking is, any player selected All NBA is definitely top tier, while second tier is reserved for those good enough to be All Stars, but not All NBA.”
My thinking is that a player with a max contract should either be able to be the best player on a championship team or should be a big enough box office draw that people show up just to see him play. LeBron/Kobe/Wade etc. fit into both categories, Duncan/Garnett etc. fit into the first category, and Blake Griffin fits in to the second category. Joe Johnson doesn’t really fit into either. He would be an excellent #2 option on a title team. So yeah, he is overpaid. Not his fault that the Hawks offered him that contract, and based on his contributions he’s not anywhere near the most overpaid player in the league like some have said (or even on his own team; I’d say Zaza is the Hawks’ most overpaid player), and being overpaid doesn’t mean he is bad (like you say, there is a solid argument to be made that he is the 3rd best SG in the league) but he most certainly is overpaid. Oh well, it ain’t my money.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
3:31 pm
“Take look at all the pg’s that were available through the draft when the Hawks made their pick
2001 – Tony Parker
2003 – Mo Williams
2004 – Jameer Nelson
2005 – Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Ray Felton, Jarret Jack, Nate Robinson, and Monte Ellis.
2006 – Rajon Rondo, Jordan Farmar
2007 – Aaron Brooks and Rodney Stuckey
Here we are in 2011 still talking about filling the pg position.” WOW…………..
That”s with three so called multi-seven figured highly paid professional GM’s..They could not see a tree standing before them in the forest.. Talk about not getting it done? Just brutal……………………..
Mookie…Mookie….Mookie……. We miss ya man…………”The 6′2″ pg assassin………….
That 05 draft was the infamous “it was terrible pick” Marvin Williams.. That was the mistake that will keep this team out of an ECF for at least another 10-15 years……………24 years and counting…..
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
3:40 pm
Package Josh and Marvin for “upgrades” after the season runs its course..Sund needs to get his “Bang” for the buck first….LOL Throw in Bibby or JC1 too…..
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
3:41 pm
Ken Strickland
February 3rd, 2011
2:42 pm
I like that post. I think that a Josh trade only makes sense to improve this team.
northcyde
February 3rd, 2011
3:43 pm
Ken . . I believe the trade exception ca’t be used to be added to a player in the way you suggested.
I believe we would have to trade for a player making 3+ mill, and give that team the trade exception.
And trading Josh Smith for just a “quality center” is just not enough. Unless Horford really turns into an offensive force at PF, a trade for just a decent center won’t make us better.
Who would be the center that you trade Josh for? That’s the problem with these scenarios.
Rod from College Park
February 3rd, 2011
3:46 pm
slimjr,
That’s what makes the Marvin pick so bad. No way possible you could have missed on a point guard that year unless we drafted Nate or Jarett. Even with either of those guys, we still would be better off than we are now at point guard.
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
3:51 pm
The 6-foot-8 Johnson, a combo guard with Phoenix, will have the opportunity to play point guard in Atlanta, giving the young Hawks an unusually big backcourt. Josh Childress, also 6-8, likely will open the season at shooting guard, joined by forwards Josh Smith and Al Harrington. The team has signed free agent center Zaza Pachulia.
The team added another versatile 6-foot-8 player with its first-round pick, North Carolina’s Marvin Williams.
The Hawks had the worst record in the league last year, 13-69, also the worst mark in team history.
While Knight noted Johnson can play other positions, coach Mike Woodson said “He’s going to run our point, which I think is great for this franchise.”
This experiment lasted 3 weeks into the season…5 years later we still need a point guard.
niremetal
February 3rd, 2011
3:52 pm
My thinking is that a player with a max contract should either be able to be the best player on a championship team or should be a big enough box office draw that people show up just to see him play.
Why is it that people think of the max contract level as a magic number that somehow sends a signal that all players making that amount of money are supposed to be about the same quality? It’s not. It’s an arbitrary number pegged by the CBA to “spread the wealth” from elite level players to the everyday players. I’ll just copy/paste something that I said on Hawksquawk months ago:
The idea that max money can/should only go to the 4-5 guys in the league who are capable of being one-man franchises is hogwash. The max salary is an artificial cap. If there weren’t a max salary limit, LeBron would be getting $35M/year offers this summer, even if all the other cap and tax rules remained the same. Think about it this way: If the “max contract” really had some magical representative value, shouldn’t one and only one player in the game get it? After all, Wade certainly is not “as worthy” of a max contract as LeBron. But most people still have no problem paying Wade the same amount that LeBron can get.
Players who don’t fit into that category get max contracts all the time, and it’s not crippling as long as the player stays “very good” or better (see Rashard Lewis, Garnett/Allen/Pierce). Hell, even if a max or near-max guy devolves into just a borderline starter (see Kirilenko, Kenyon Martin), the team can still contend.
People need to stop thinking of max money as representing some sort of magic number that actually reflects what a player is “worth” in an open market sense.
i_am_soulstar
February 3rd, 2011
3:55 pm
I think Jordan Crawford will prove to be a pretty good pickup.
Najeh Davenpoop
February 3rd, 2011
3:58 pm
“SALARY-$11.7/$5.44, PPG-16.1/16.2, RPG-8.9/9.9, APG-3.4/3.6, SPG-1.11/.77, BPG-2.7/1.4, MPG-34.8/35. How many of you think it would make good sense to pay an additional $6.26M to Josh just to reap an additional .71BPG and .56SPG? That’s money we could use to acquire the PG we desperately need, or the center we’d need after we traded Josh and moved Horford to PF.”
First of all, Horford is on his rookie scale deal this year, and when his extension kicks in next year he will start getting paid the same as Smoove.
Secondly — and this is something you do a lot — comparing two players just based on their fantasy stats is never going to give you a clear picture of their overall value. “An extra something SPG/something BPG” doesn’t paint a full picture of Smoove’s defensive value to this team. Nor does comparing fantasy stats for Joe vs. Kobe/Wade/Ellis/Gordon etc. do full justice to the completely different roles each player plays on their respective teams and completely different skill sets each player has. You can’t just compare two players’ fantasy stats in a vacuum and decide one is better than the other. Andray Blatche puts up much better numbers than Tim Duncan this year, but the Spurs would laugh until they sh-t their pants if the Wiz called them to offer that trade.
That’s not to contradict your overall point that the Hawks will eventually trade Smoove, which may very well be true. It’s just to say that there is way more to the game of basketball than what is reflected in fantasy stats.
Geemack
February 3rd, 2011
4:00 pm
northcyde
If you can get a Devin Harris for Josh..would you make the trade?
Kojak66
February 3rd, 2011
4:02 pm
I told everybody not to worry about how great Joe Johnson is. Nobody listened and they are in shock as to the excellence this man is displaying night in and night out. I made the comments just a couple of years ago that Joe was the second best closer in the game behind Kobe and nobody believed me. What do you think now after averaging 26 points a night for january and now 37 for february. Its just amazing just how good this guy is because I knew when he came over as a free agent he was sacrificing to come to atlanta. Joe said other great players would follow him. Jamal Crawford came to atlanta as well and now we have some homegrown stars to surround joe with–Al Horford, Josh Smith, etc. The Hawks now have a star-studded roster but Joe is still the main star because he is the hall of fame calibre player who has done it all in the NBA. He is now in the process of leading a team to an nba title.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
4:02 pm
Billy Knight/ Mike Woodson combo was a disaster.. Heck Knight tried to fire the guy 3 times to take the fall rather than himself.. He finally just quit..He knew he screwed up BIG TIME…The Hawks will feel his screws ups for years to come……………..Are those two still employed in the NBA? Probably not…It’s not their daddy’s NBA like this buster Sund…..These types just seemed to get rehired for doing nothing………….
ElvinHayes
February 3rd, 2011
4:05 pm
If the Hawks could go out and trade Marvin Williams for that one signature star or complementary piece to add to the current mix: maybe someone like a Dirk Norwisnki or a Jamal Lewis, the Hawks would win a championship right away this season.
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
4:07 pm
“Josh Childress, also 6-8, likely will open the season at shooting guard” Quote from Knight…..
Oh shoot I thought that was a bad JOKE…..LOL!
Rufus1
February 3rd, 2011
4:09 pm
Sautee
the point I was making(it may have been clearer in my head). it that most teams are willing to accept the shortcomings of a young PG who has potenial, with the hope he will become great or atleast very good.
I mentioned Ridnour and Jennings because I think their situation was similar to the Hawks with Bibby and Teague. A good vet -vs- a young athletic player… The Bucks went with Jennings, even though their offense clearly functioned better under Luke.
The Reason….
Jennings speed, quickness and athletic ability, offers the chance to be great and in the NBA you always ERROR on the side of greatness….BECAUSE ONE GREAT PLAYER CAN CHANGE A FRANCHISE.(LBJ)
Last years #
Luke 38% 3pt/48%FG Bibby 39% 3pt/42%FG
Career FG%
Jennings 38% Teague 41%
I am not one of those people that think the Hawks keep drafting poorly….I think they hire poorly. I think that if Jennings was in ATL we would be calling him another BAD DRAFT PICK, because Jennings is Teague with a left hand. THE COACHES IN ATL OVER THE PAST 7 YEARS HAVE BEEN SEEKING A GOOD PG AND NOT A GREAT ONE!!!!!!
slimjr
February 3rd, 2011
4:16 pm
One big difference between Teague and Jennings. Jennings drop 55 pts in an NBA game! Teague never will….He’s not a scorer..Jennings is…
Najeh Davenpoop
February 3rd, 2011
4:16 pm
“After all, Wade certainly is not “as worthy” of a max contract as LeBron. But most people still have no problem paying Wade the same amount that LeBron can get.”
Both LeBron and Wade have carried teams to the finals as the best player on the team, and Wade has won a title as the best player on his team. Wade may not be as good as LeBron, but he is close enough to be grouped into the same tier as him.
“Players who don’t fit into that category get max contracts all the time, and it’s not crippling as long as the player stays “very good” or better (see Rashard Lewis, Garnett/Allen/Pierce). Hell, even if a max or near-max guy devolves into just a borderline starter (see Kirilenko, Kenyon Martin), the team can still contend.”
In the case of Kirilenko, Lewis, and Martin, they were getting paid the max on teams that had elite players still on their rookie contracts, and as you know the cap rules allow you to give max extensions to players you drafted once their contracts expire. That helps a lot when it comes to managing that salary. As long as those teams are willing to go in to the luxury tax to give their star draft picks max extension. the overpaid max free agent signees are not going to kill their cap flexibility. In the Hawks’ case, there is no Dwight Howard or Deron Williams or Melo to pair with Joe that was getting paid a rookie scale deal when Joe signed his deal. And in the case of the Celtics, the cap has a provision that restricts how much you can pay to a player before his 36th birthday, and as a result the extensions signed by those players are not of the same value (at least as I understand it) as true max deals.
“People need to stop thinking of max money as representing some sort of magic number that actually reflects what a player is “worth” in an open market sense.”
Market values in any sense are usually determined at least in part by comparing the value of one asset to the value of other, similar assets. Going by that, however artificial the max salary level may be, the fact that Joe is paid in the same tier as LeBron and Kobe when he doesn’t perform at that tier makes him overpaid. In the Hawks’ case, since they don’t have a true superstar on a rookie scale deal to pair with him (unless you agree with Bret LaGree that Horford is a superstar) it restricts the extent to which they can improve this roster going forward, since they will only be able to add salary by signing mid level players.
In any case, none of my previous post was meant to dispute Joe’s value to the team, his performance, or even the DASG’s decision to give him the max. I can understand why they may have felt compelled to give him that kind of money, since the Knicks and Bulls were also after him. Like I have said many times, I think the decisions to overpay Marvin, Bibby, and Zaza are haunting the Hawks right now much more than the decision to overpay Joe ever will.