Bucks 98, Hawks 90
Greetings, all-
Pretty brutal loss that’s a puzzler to explain. Some quotes from those involved.
Al Horford on losing leads late: “It’s a lessons still being learned, I feel like. I guess when it gets to a point where it hurts you and really bothers you, then you do something about it. I don’t know that we’re there as a team yet.”
Zaza Pachulia: “I believe we didn’t play smart the last couple minutes of the fourth quarter, I’d say the whole fourth quarter. We let them make a run and let them do what they wanted.”
Joe Johnson: “With everybody back, it seems that the flow is a little different. We just had no chemistry throughout the whole game.”
More Johnson: “It honestly wasn’t comfortable. We had a lead. After that, I don’t know what happened.”
Larry Drew: “It was not a good display of shot selection, which we talk about over and over, especially on the road. We settled.”
More Drew: “It was just a total collapse on the defensive end, I thought. We didn’t play with the energy, we didn’t play with the juice, we didn’t play with the intensity that, having been in that situation before, we’ve done in the past.”
- In the aftermath, this is unsettling. The Hawks had their full load of players and the Bucks didn’t have Brandon Jennings and John Salmons. The Hawks had three days’ rest and a six-game road winning streak.
To give a game away like that doesn’t make a lot of sense.
- The shot selection was particularly egregious. It seemed like they got trapped in a mindset that they had to chuck up jumpers to answer Milwaukee, and that obviously wasn’t the answer. Josh Smith was particularly trigger-happy, going 1 for 6 in the fourth, including 0-for-3 from 3-point range.
They were 5-for-22 in the fourth and 0-for-6 from 3-point range.
- The defense wasn’t much better. Earl Boykins and Carlos Delfino outscored the Hawks by themselves, 20-15. The Bucks were patient and worked for free looks at the basket, which they made. Boykins made 4 of 5 shots in the fourth, repeatedly attacking the basket. The Hawks’ 19-point deficit in the fourth was their second largest of the season. (20-point deficit in loss to Detroit Dec. 14)
- I’m not sure what this game means, ultimately. The Magic and Lakers lost to Milwaukee at the Bradley Center earlier this season. The Hawks had won six in a row on the road, so maybe this was bound to happen. Bear in mind this is a team that’s 29-17.
- Or, the Hawks weren’t able/willing to grind against a team that makes you do just that. For all the Bucks’ flaws, they can make teams work offensively. In their loss to Chicago Monday, the Bulls shot 39.5 percent but shot 25 free throws to Milwaukee’s 11 and won by nine points.
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293 comments Add your comment
KevinM
January 27th, 2011
5:28 pm
Rufus, Shaq wanted too much money? The MLE? Compared to Marvin and Zaza and Bibby? Really?
Who knows, Shaq could have flopped here, but if you don’t have a strong management staff, then you can’t manage those kinds of egos. This is the NBA, the NATIONAL BIGBOYS ASSOCIATION…if you can’t manage egos, then you shouldn’t be trying to humor the fan base.
Is the ASG serious about winning? You tell me….you check the roster. Do we have any bonafide all-stars? Are we even going to be represented All-Star weekend?
We have the same salary numbers as the Spurs. Do you feel good about our chances against the top teams come playoff time? They have 3 top components. We have 2 B+ and a B as our core. These guys need help.
Sund isn’t providing it.
Jae Evolution
January 27th, 2011
5:34 pm
On a side note, do you think any of our four potential All-Stars (Joe, Josh, Al, and Jamal, yes Jamal he is looking to go for his second sixth man title) do any of them or how many make the All-Star reserves this year?
To me since I think Doc Rivers will be the coach no doubt, I think Joe makes it and Al makes it again, but that’s just me.
Ken Strickland
January 27th, 2011
5:38 pm
Why make an issue of Horford shooting jumpers rather than posting up. Hell, anyone that shoots jumpers with the accuracy that he does should be shooting them. His deadly jumpshooting pulls the opposing center away from the basket, which makes it easier for others to post up.
GRANDAD-LDrew sent JTeague in whenever Boykins entered the gm, and he continued to do than for the 1st 3 qtrs. Apparently Drew wanted more OFF potential and played Bibby against Boykins for most of the 4th qtr. Of the 20pts Boykins scored, 11 were against Bibby in the 4th qtr, which means he scored no more than 9pts against Teague in 3qtrs. Teague forced Boykins into being primarily a jumpshooter, until the 4th qtr. I did see Boykins beat Teague twice, where he fouled him while attempting to block his shot. I wouldn’t call that bad DEF.
I saw Teague calling for the ball on 3 separate possessions, and Jamal didn’t pass it to him. This isn’t the first time it’s happened, nor is it the first time I’ve mentioned it. That’s on Drew, not Teague.
Ra'mon
January 27th, 2011
5:50 pm
KenS, Horford jumpers doesn’t pull the centers away from the rim, because they always give him the shot. The difference is posting up allows a better chance to going to the free throw line, where the entire team benefits because the entire team is closer to the penalty. And also a post up makes defenses adjust and send a double team, opening up other shooters. Once again, this benefits the rest of the team.
Hawks
January 27th, 2011
5:51 pm
“We just had no chemistry throughout the whole game”
which is puzzling considering how long this group has pretty much played together
Ra'mon
January 27th, 2011
5:53 pm
Just a few months ago, I was for a Crawford for Mayo trade. Today, glad that didn’t happen, because it turns out Mayo likes to get Half Baked.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2011
5:56 pm
KevinM
You don’t compound a (BAD) decision, with a another one. Just because they may have overpayed those players, doesn’t mean you over a lazy, fat, injury prone, primadona.
“NATIONAL BIGBOYS ASSOCIATION”…I like that.
I think our Team is unbalanced, but I think most of our solutions are on the roster.
Most elite teams have atleast one starter who’s primary job is defense…That was Josh, but he isn’t the same player as last year.
If LD decides that defense is 1st and offense if 3rd, I think we will become an elite team. We should never have more than 1 defensive liability on the floor at the same time.(Bibby and Jamal should never share the floor.) If we decide to close teams out with our defense, teams like the Bucks wouldn’t go on 15pt runs.
At the end of the game we should go with Bibby or Teague…not both…I bet our 4 qt defense will in prove…The Celtics win more 80 and 90pt games than anyone…
If we were holding teams to 90pts a game, we wouldn’t need jamal and we could servive with Teague or JC2 at the PG.
slimjr
January 27th, 2011
5:59 pm
If the Playoffs start today the Hawks play Orlando, who would have home court advantage in the 1st rd. If you had a bet on this series who has the best chance of advancing????
Enough said… The beat down count begins…29,28,27,26,25…….
Sund=fail 31 yrs and counting
Rufus1
January 27th, 2011
6:00 pm
Correction…”At the end of the game we should go with Bibby or Crawford, not both.
Rod from College Park
January 27th, 2011
6:04 pm
Ken Strickland,
“Why make an issue of Horford shooting jumpers rather than posting up. Hell, anyone that shoots jumpers with the accuracy that he does should be shooting them. His deadly jumpshooting pulls the opposing center away from the basket, which makes it easier for others to post up.”
While you are correct from a basketball standpoint, it does not help the Hawks because no one else on our team post up except Josh. The majority of the time our two best rebounders are on the perimeter, which gives us no chance of getting an offensive rebound.
“GRANDAD-LDrew sent JTeague in whenever Boykins entered the gm, and he continued to do than for the 1st 3 qtrs. Apparently Drew wanted more OFF potential and played Bibby against Boykins for most of the 4th qtr. Of the 20pts Boykins scored, 11 were against Bibby in the 4th qtr, which means he scored no more than 9pts against Teague in 3qtrs. Teague forced Boykins into being primarily a jumpshooter, until the 4th qtr. I did see Boykins beat Teague twice, where he fouled him while attempting to block his shot. I wouldn’t call that bad DEF.”
It’s actually reversed. Boykins scored 11 pionts on Teague and 9 on Bibby. Bibby entered the game at the 8:25 mark of the 4th. Boykins scored 9 points from that point to the end of the game. Check the game log,. He abused Teague just as he abused Bibby.
Rufus1
January 27th, 2011
6:05 pm
LD focus on “D”
If LD focused on defense, I think it would change Josh’s mentality back to defense. LD is an offensive coach…so you impress an offensive coach with…… WAIT FOR, WAIT FOR IT…..OFFENSE
Playing Bibby and Jamal together, tells Josh that offense is the most important thing to LD.
slimjr
January 27th, 2011
6:09 pm
” In his last 16 games, he’s just 11-of-40 (27.5 percent) from three-point range. And those long twos? During his last 20 games — nearly half Atlanta’s season — Smith has hit just 23-of-74 jumpers from the area between 16 feet and the three-point line. That’s 31 percent — almost exactly Smith’s career rate from this range and well below his season-long rate of 39 percent.”
JOSH YOU CANT SHOOT 3’s!! It’s beyond your talent DUDE!!! STOP IT NOW!!!! Your set shot looks like a kid practicing in middle school just brutal..You learned very early how to dunk instead of the art of shooting…STOP IT!!!!!!!!
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
6:24 pm
@ Rufus1,
You said “I didn’t want Shaq…Because we already have Josh. Imagine what Shaq would have said if Josh took 20 shot and he took 7 in a loss…Do any of you think Josh would have listened…I DON’T”.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
6:26 pm
In good spirits, Josh Smith addressed the thought of playing with Shaq. “If he comes to the team, that’ll be real big for us, that’ll be real big for our team.
I think we’re missing a guy down there that’s gonna hold up Dwight a little bit. You know, give him a little physicality a little bit.
I think having him on the team would be big. Just having him for his leadership and all the different accolades he’s done throughout his whole career.He definitely can teach us a little thing or two about success in the League.”.
Grandad
January 27th, 2011
6:26 pm
Ken Strickland – excellent points Teague also 1 for 5 from the field.
* Plus no help side defense *
bigdave – “so Al is our go to guy now”?
1. If the situation demands it.
2. “Your best shooter should take the most shots” -Don Meyer-
3. “Pass the ball to the player who is the most open” -Grandad-
4. Go to guys = Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, et al.
*We do not have one of those*
Drew
January 27th, 2011
6:33 pm
Isn’t it funny how everyone but the Josh lovers (Najeh and Ramon) can see Josh’s flaws and what a problem he can be for our team, yet his lovers will look for every possible excuse in the book to bail josh out? You two just keep coming up with more and more excuses to defend Josh, and you continually try to put the blame on everyone else. It’s getting out of hand. Do you realize how silly and childish you are sounding? Your love for Josh has truly blinded you and you are losing credibility quickly with these posts.
What really amazes me are your attempts to blame someone else for Josh’s mistakes. You put the blame on Bibby, then Marvin, Joe, Jamal, and probably will even find a way to blame Al who was the best Hawk in last night’s game. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if you eventually started to blame Wally Blaze for last night’s loss, just to make Josh look good.
Enough is enough. Josh is a very flawed player when he doesn’t keep his head in the game. He can destroy a team when that happens. He has his good moments and his bad ones, but last night he definitely had a lot of bad ones. Also, I’m not the only one who feels this way. I’ve seen dozens of posts about Josh’s poor play on this discussion board and others, including Peachtree Hoops. Read the post-game recaps by Kris Willis and Bret Lagree, or any esteemed sports writer who recapped the game. Josh is in large part to blame for this loss, along with L.D. coming in at a close second.
One more thing, it really is getting old to continually use Bibby as your favorite scapegoat. Bibby is physically declining, but he’s not a dumb player. He makes smart decisions, and most of the time, his bad play is not his fault, it’s the fault of the coach for putting him in bad situations. Bibby is obviously physically incapable of playing major minutes and guarding most point guards. He’s too slow to ever be asked to guard a guy like Boykins. It’s not Bibby’s fault that he is asked to do that. A real coach would not be playing Bibby large minutes and would be trying his best to hide Bibby’s defensive liabilities. It’s not like Bibby is saying “Hey, coach, let me check the fastest player on the court tonight, I know I can lock him down.” Drew is even worse than Woodson when it comes to matchups. Last season, Johnson typically guarded the point guards, while Bibby was placed on the slowest or least dangerous perimeter players. Drew is asking for defeat when he plays Bibby large minutes against quick players. You can criticize Bibby all you want for making bad decisions if he does, but I find it difficult to criticize him for something that he can’t do anything about. He can’t magically improve his physical ability. Just like you can’t magically grow wings and fly. Bibby at least doesn’t intentionally hurt the team with bad shots and decisions. Bibby’s deficiencies are not preventable unless he’s taken out the game (which he should be in a lot of cases), but Josh’s deficiencies are 100% preventable. His mistakes are a sign of selfishness and immaturity, not physical inability.
ILL-Logical
January 27th, 2011
6:42 pm
Now for something different but very significant:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/hawks-no-longer-collateral-818248.html
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
6:43 pm
“Bibby is physically declining, but he’s not a dumb player. He makes smart decisions, and most of the time, his bad play is not his fault, it’s the fault of the coach for putting him in bad situations.”
So we can’t blame his teammates or the coach or “bad situations” for Smoove taking jump shots, but you can blame teammates or the coach or “bad situations” for Bibby failing to contribute anything to the game whatsoever?
That makes plenty of sense. Please do enlighten us with your other groundbreaking insights.
Roland
January 27th, 2011
6:46 pm
“Playing Bibby and Jamal together, tells Josh that offense is the most important thing to LD.”
This statement is dead on. L.D. system places a much larger emphasis on offense than it does on anything else. L.D. promotes favoritism and biased-accountability. He is always partial to his “shot makers”, over his defenders. He doesn’t have it in him to get Josh to play under control and Joe and Josh are very obviously his favorite players. Don’t expect much to change for this team with Drew at the head coaching position. He was an awful choice.
The best thing for this team to do would be to get a new head coach, but since that won’t happen anytime soon, the next best option would be to trade Josh Smith. Let him take his selfish play and his “improved three point shooting” to another team. Let him ruin another team and let him try his B.S. with a real coach in another system away from us.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
6:51 pm
“Bibby at least doesn’t intentionally hurt the team with bad shots and decisions. ”
I guess you missed the key possession in yesterday’s 4th quarter when Bibby went around a Horford screen, dribbled it on his foot, lost the handle, and threw a pass to Horford’s ankles that Horford wasn’t able to gain possession of until his man got up in his grill, eventually resulting in Horford kicking it out to Joe on the 3 point line and Joe hoisting up a contested 3 as the shot clock wound down.
I agree that Bibby makes up for his athletic deficiencies with an above average knowledge of the game, but it’s not like he’s some kind of basketball genius.
Trojan
January 27th, 2011
6:57 pm
The last thing that we need to disect is Al’s deadly face up shots. He is one of the most accurate shooters in the NBA. The Hawks have much greater needs.
Our team’s reliance on jump shooting offense at the expense of defense, especially with our guards, is the issue that will certainly keep our team from achieving any new level.
We are what we are. Larry love offense and he turns a blind eye to defense.
Drew
January 27th, 2011
6:58 pm
“So we can’t blame his teammates or the coach or “bad situations” for Smoove taking jump shots, but you can blame teammates or the coach or “bad situations” for Bibby failing to contribute anything to the game whatsoever?”
Allow me to enlighten you. There is a difference between a “bad situation” and being an idiot. Bibby is asked by the coach to guard people that we all know he is incapable of guarding. He doesn’t have a choice. I’m sure most of us would prefer for him to be on the bench instead, but L.D. is not going to do that so we have to live with Bibby’s deficiencies.
Josh, on the other hand, has choices. When he catches the ball, he doesn’t have to shoot it. He can hold it and wait for a man to cut, he can dribble it and hand it off, he can attempt to drive to the basket if the lane is open, etc. etc. In countless situations, Josh makes bad decisions and takes bad shots. That’s on him. Sometimes, Drew is to blame for giving him too much confidence and occasionally actually running plays that result in Josh taking a long jumper with low accuracy (don’t tell me about the stats, Josh’s jump shots are of low accuracy and it’s very obvious to anyone that follows the game of basketball). If the “bad situation” argument that you are trying to suggest applied, then everyone on the team who played in a game would be taking bad shots. Occasionally, Teague will be left open, but if he is given the ball, he knows that his shot is not reliable enough to jack one up when it matter. Also, Damien Wilkins is not going to shoot just because he’s open, if he knows it’s not a good shot. On several occasions, even Al has some space for a shot and he’s an excellent shooter, but at time’s he’ll even pass up the shot if a better one is available. Josh has plenty of options. He just fails to use them. Just because someone passes you the ball does not mean you have to shoot it. Do you see Shaq, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, etc. shooting the ball everytime someone passes it to them when they know that they are not good jumpshooter? No, I don’t think so. Even if Josh has improved his shooting somewhat, his shot is nowhere near reliable enough for him to be chucking up bricks in crunch time because HE (note the emphasis on HE), thinks he is some kind of elite jump shooter.
I’m sure you’ll come up with some excuse for why it’s not Josh’s fault or blame someone else for making a mistake, but frankly, I really don’t care to read what you have to say on the matter at this point. You’ve left enough of an impression as it is, and I feel that I know where you stand on this subject, and I’m not interested in reading what you have to say when it’s blatantly obvious that you are a Josh Smith apologist.
So, with that being said, feel free to continue to address me, but if I do not respond, don’t be surprised. I don’t feel like it’s worth my time to argue over a lost cause.
Trojan
January 27th, 2011
7:01 pm
I am sick of watching the WHOLE team wanting to run and our PG holding the ball up because he is not physically able to run as fast as anyone on the court, anyone.
That is why Josh and Al simply dribble it up sometimes. They know if they do not, the ball will be walked up, handed off and the offense will stagnate.
slim son
January 27th, 2011
7:04 pm
LOL Najeh just got owned…
By the way, Larry Drew has no idea what he’s doing.
Josh still behaves like he’s in middle school, and Joe is not a prime-time player.
The Hawks are falling apart because of this.
FIRE DREW! FIRE SUND! TRADE JOSH! PUT BIBBY ON A JASON COLLINS DIET!
Ron
January 27th, 2011
7:12 pm
“I am sick of watching the WHOLE team wanting to run and our PG holding the ball up because he is not physically able to run as fast as anyone on the court, anyone.
That is why Josh and Al simply dribble it up sometimes. They know if they do not, the ball will be walked up, handed off and the offense will stagnate.”
I agree with this. Unfortunately, I doubt that this will change any time soon. Bibby would need to be benched for this to change, and L.D. doesn’t seem to have much confidence in Teague. So, we’re basically stuck with this problem, among others due to our personnel limitations.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
7:14 pm
“don’t tell me about the stats, Josh’s jump shots are of low accuracy and it’s very obvious to anyone that follows the game of basketball”
This tells me all I need to know. If you are going to form your opinions irrespective of the facts, you are not really in a position to judge other people’s credibility.
Ron
January 27th, 2011
7:26 pm
I just came across an interesting article on Josh’s improved jump shooting. Here it is:
http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2011/1/27/1959846/want-to-puke-read-this
The fan post is not the article, the article I’m talking about is in the fan post. You can ignore the fan stuff. This kind of gives me the impression that Josh is maybe playing for the wrong reasons. I could just be interpreting his statements incorrectly, but at any rate, the article is interesting.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
7:32 pm
“When he catches the ball, he doesn’t have to shoot it. ”
If the shot clock is running down, yes he does. All but one missed jumper he took in yesterday’s game came with the shot clock in single digits.
“He can hold it and wait for a man to cut, he can dribble it and hand it off, he can attempt to drive to the basket if the lane is open, etc. etc. ”
If you really think Josh dribbling the ball is a better situation than Josh shooting it, you clearly haven’t watched many Hawks games. His handles are much worse than his jump shot, especially when smart defenders make him go to his right, like they did on the possession yesterday when he tried to drive it and ended up shooting a wild, off balance shot off the backboard (easily the worst shot he took in the entire 4th quarter).
“If the “bad situation” argument that you are trying to suggest applied, then everyone on the team who played in a game would be taking bad shots.”
I didn’t “suggest” this argument. You’re the one who brought up “bad situations” as an excuse for Bibby sucking. If LD is to blame for Bibby getting burned on D at point guard, then he is at least partially to blame for Smoove taking jumpers at small forward.
“Occasionally, Teague will be left open, but if he is given the ball, he knows that his shot is not reliable enough to jack one up when it matter. Also, Damien Wilkins is not going to shoot just because he’s open, if he knows it’s not a good shot.”
Comparing role players who play 10 minutes a game to starters is asinine. Damien Wilkins doesn’t shoot because he is in the game specifically to play defense. Teague doesn’t shoot because a) he isn’t aggressive enough to do so anyway and b) he is usually inserted into the game to attack the basket with his quickness.
“On several occasions, even Al has some space for a shot and he’s an excellent shooter, but at time’s he’ll even pass up the shot if a better one is available. ”
Not when the shot clock is running down and he’s set up with a shot within in his range, he doesn’t, nor should he. Al, given that his mid range jump shot is damn near automatic, would be making a bad play if he passed up an open mid range shot.
“Josh has plenty of options. He just fails to use them. ”
Let’s bring up one situation for which he is getting skewered today. Hawks down by 4, Horford drives on Bogut, Josh’s man leaves him to help on Horford, and Horford kicks to Smoove on the perimeter. There are 19 seconds left in the game, Smoove is wide open for 3, Joe and Jamal are being guarded. What do you propose Smoove does in that situation?
“Just because someone passes you the ball does not mean you have to shoot it. ”
True. But if someone passes you the ball with the clock in single digits within the flow of the offense and you are wide open and you have been hitting jump shots at a respectable rate all season, shooting the ball is usually the right play.
“Do you see Shaq, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, etc. shooting the ball everytime someone passes it to them when they know that they are not good jumpshooter?”
Nice straw man argument, bringing up three players who have never converted jump shots at the rate Smoove is doing so this year as a comparison.
“Even if Josh has improved his shooting somewhat, his shot is nowhere near reliable enough for him to be chucking up bricks in crunch time because HE (note the emphasis on HE), thinks he is some kind of elite jump shooter.”
I’m not a mind reader, so I don’t claim to know what Smoove thinks of his shooting ability. I do know that if Jamal and Al and Joe continually pass the ball to an open Smoove with the shot clock in single digits, clearly HE is not the only one on the team who thinks he can hit that shot. Clearly his teammates have enough confidence in him that they think he can knock it down too.
Again, if you want to criticize him for missing those shots, I’m right with you. Those are shots he should be able to make. But I am not going to criticize him for taking the same shots everyone else on the team takes when he has been converting them at a respectable rate for most of the season.
“I’m sure you’ll come up with some excuse for why it’s not Josh’s fault or blame someone else for making a mistake, but frankly, I really don’t care to read what you have to say on the matter at this point. You’ve left enough of an impression as it is, and I feel that I know where you stand on this subject, and I’m not interested in reading what you have to say when it’s blatantly obvious that you are a Josh Smith apologist.”
Again, for someone who freely admits that you form your opinions regardless of how blatantly they clash with the facts, you’re not really in a position to criticize other people’s arguments.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
7:36 pm
I am a big fan of Josh Smith, but I think the reason fans are so hard on him is because his mistakes are easily corrected (imo).
For other players, their limitations and mistakes are seen as physical mistakes. They are old, or not very talented etc.
But for Josh, a lot of his mistakes appear to be mental. Why is it so hard for him to improve his shot selection, especially when he is struggling from the field?
Why continue to pout when the calls are not going your way? Why not bring the energy and intensity more consistently when your teamates depend on you to set the pace?
Those issues people might consider as mental, and if fans can see it, why can’t Josh?
I’m not saying I agree, but I think thats why people blame him so much.
J.J.M
January 27th, 2011
7:38 pm
only one hawk as an all star
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
7:40 pm
Kenny, Charles and E.J. all have Horford as an all-star reserve.
Barkley is not a fan of JJ for the all-star game as a reserve.
Rod from College Park
January 27th, 2011
7:42 pm
Najeh,
LOL. You make very valid points.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
7:43 pm
Really, some of you sound like the same people who used to say five years ago that Mike Vick was an uncoachable bust who would never become a good passer in the NFL and continued to hold onto those opinions this year despite him putting up MVP caliber numbers all season.
A year ago, I was among the people in the Philips Arena crowd who would yell out “No!” every time Smoove took a jumper. This year, give him credit, he has gone from being an abysmal shooter to being a respectable shooter, and the vast majority of his jump shots come within the flow of the offense and are not forced or contested. Would I rather see him in the post 100% of the time and taking all his shots within 5 feet of the hoop? Of course. If he was still shooting 25% from 3, would I be criticizing him for taking those shots too? Of course. But if LD is going to continue playing him at SF and allow him to shoot those, and his teammates are going to continue passing it to him in a position to shoot it with the clock winding down, and he’s going to continue converting them at a respectable rate, I’m not going to complain about it, and I’m damn sure not going to blame him for losing games when he elevates the entire team’s otherwise underwhelming defense. As the facts change, my opinions change with them.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
7:44 pm
And I see O’Brien’s numbers on Smoove’s declining shooting this month. If that continues, my opinions will probably change too. I’m willing to give him a chance to regain his early season form before I start crucifying him.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
7:57 pm
“Why continue to pout when the calls are not going your way? Why not bring the energy and intensity more consistently when your teamates depend on you to set the pace?”
I think this is the real reason. When things don’t go Smoove’s way he starts whining to the refs, and that rubs fans the wrong way, and that affects how much they are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he doesn’t come through.
I really just care about production. Who is helping the team win, and who is not. Smoove can whine all he wants as long as he continues to elevate the team defensively and converts offensively at a respectable rate. I’d be much more likely to call him out if he played games like the one he had against Houston a couple of weeks ago when Luis Scola and Jordan Hill were killing him in the post and Houston shot 54% on the way to a win.
And the way some people talk about Bibby on this blog cracks me up. I don’t give a sh-t if Bibby is the smartest basketball player who ever lived and cures cancer and invents time machines in his spare time; if he’s not going to hit open shots, set up teammates with good shots, or stop anyone on D, he is causing the team to lose, period. If it’s because of his athletic limitations and not his decisions, fine… it’s not like I hate him personally for causing the Hawks to lose or something. But the bottom line is he is the weak link for whom the rest of the team has to compensate, and if he’s not going to hit open shots he contributes nothing. That’s not using him as a scapegoat — that’s placing the blame where it belongs.
Steve
January 27th, 2011
8:07 pm
Wow, this guy has really gone overboard. Najeh, you are looking like a freak already with your Josh obsession. It’s nothing but excuse after excuse with you trying to protect Josh. Give it up already, The opinions, the stats, etc. all show evidence that Josh can be a very bad player sometimes. and the shot selection is his fault, and it is bad. Have you ever watched a nationally televised Hawks game and noticed how often Smith is criticized for his shot selection? The most recent one I can think of was the fan night game against the Heat, and repeatedly McHale and Webber were talking about how Josh needed to stop shooting. Do you really think that you know more than they do about the game of basketball? Or more than 90% of the NBA fanbase who agree that Josh Smith has a very iffy shot selection a large majority of the time?
Your obsession is sounding a little bit scary, bud. It’s like you are madly in love with Josh Smith. It’s pretty weird at this point. I can understand wanting to defend your favorite player, but going crazy and making any and every excuse plus twisting the facts to make it look like Smoove has no flaws is really taking it overboard. It’s like you are on this board 24/7 defending Josh. It’s pretty pathetic when a guy can’t even admit that he’s wrong.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
8:09 pm
Amare Stoudemire is shooting 53% from 3 this year. For his career he has a 24% 3 point percentage. He just received a pass in the corner with no defenders near him and drained a wide open 3 within the flow of the offense. If some of the dumbasses on this blog were coaching the Knicks, they would have benched his ass and yelled at him for poor shot selection.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
8:14 pm
“but going crazy and making any and every excuse plus twisting the facts to make it look like Smoove has no flaws is really taking it overboard.”
I never said he has no flaws. In fact I have repeatedly said his handles are terrible. I never even said he is my favorite NBA player. If I set aside the fact that I’m a Hawks fan and look at it purely from a neutral perspective, Kevin Durant is my favorite player. All I have been defending is Smoove’s shot selection in last night’s game. If you disagree with what I said, tell me why what I said is wrong; don’t waste my time attributing sh-t to me that I didn’t say.
Ron
January 27th, 2011
8:15 pm
Najeh,
I think you’re a little bit off-base with the Bibby blame. I’m not disagreeing with your criticisms of Bibby. Most of them are correct, but do you think it’s really fair to blame Bibby for all of the problems? Is it not the coach’s choice to decide who plays and who doesn’t? Was it not management’s choice to resign Bibby? it’s not like Bibby is screaming for playing time. Based upon his interviews, he doesn’t even sound like he’d mind going to the bench. It’s fine to criticize Bibby’s lack of ability, but I find it difficult to blame him solely for hurting the team when the coach is the one who continues to play him for large minutes when he knows about his deficiencies. I know Drew doesn’t have a lot of options at the PG position, but when Bibby is not producing, doesn’t some of the blame go on L.D. for keeping him the game? I think it does.Part of the reason Bibby looks like such a problem is because L.D. is asking too much out of him. Bibby should not be a starter at this point in his career with the way he produces, and he definitely not play 30 minutes a night. It’s arguable that he shouldn’t even be a second string PG. He should be a situational player, a role player, at this point.
Sautee
January 27th, 2011
8:16 pm
Josh is the most competitive player on the Hawks. Sometimes this can work against him. I have to wonder if at least SOME of his shot selection (or, as some think, his lack of it) last night was his competitive nature coming out and him wanting to shut the fans up who were booing him (and worse).
We’ll never know, but to me, that’s well within his personality to react to abuse by saying, in effect “I’ll show you m-fs”.
Just to be clear, I don’t think that’s a bad thing, at all. But on a night when you are off kilter, maybe discretion should say “get ‘em back another night”.
And yes, many will say that Josh HAS no discretion, but that’s obviously wrong. he showed last year, when he refused to take 3s unless it was the end of a quarter, that he CAN use discretion.
This is in no way an excuse, but perhaps an explanation.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
8:20 pm
“do you think it’s really fair to blame Bibby for all of the problems?”
I’m not trying to blame him for all of the Hawks’ problems (or for that matter absolve Smoove of any blame for the Hawks’ problems). Maybe I came across that way in some of my responses earlier; if I did, I wasn’t trying to. The point I was trying to make is that if I’m going to ascribe yesterday’s loss to one player, I’d put more of the blame on Bibby (or LD’s insistence on playing Bibby against Boykins) than Smoove. One player is never entirely responsible for a win or a loss.
Sautee
January 27th, 2011
8:25 pm
Najeh,
Ignore the haters. Your posts on Josh have been fair and even-handed. Folks just can’t stand having their arguments refuted. (Or refudiated if you are Sarah Palin).
Steve W
January 27th, 2011
8:26 pm
Sautee,
I think that discretion you are talking about last year had more to do with the coaching than with Josh’s personally. Woodson was very stern with Josh last season and basically would bench him if he’d take those long 3 point shots. L.D. doesn’t use that same strict philosophy with Josh.
Also, don’t throw me the competitive excuse. You can be competitive and still play under control. Come on now, guys. What is with the urge to defend Josh constantly. If anyone else on the team would have done what Josh did, you’d be all over them for those mistakes. I’ve never heard people say that it’s okay for JJ to miss all of the shots that he missed in the playoffs last year because he was just being “competitive” and wanted to try and carry his team.
You cannot let your emotions dictate your play. That’s a recipe for defeat and one of the worst things you can do sometimes. You don’t win it all with hero basketball. That will get you a win or two here or there, but you won’t go all of the way. If other players, who are much better than Josh are able to play under control even when the game is one the line and stay composed, he should not be given a pass for “competitive nature”. Have you ever noticed how Durant maintains a calm demeanor in clutch situations, and you can’t tell by the look on his face whether he’s winning or losing. This is a guy who wants to be the best and is as competitive as anyone, but he doesn’t behave like a d-bag because he wants to win. Give me a break with all of the excuses, people.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
8:31 pm
“I’ve never heard people say that it’s okay for JJ to miss all of the shots that he missed in the playoffs last year because he was just being “competitive” and wanted to try and carry his team.”
I think most of us blamed Woody for that, actually. I know I did.
Ra'mon
January 27th, 2011
8:31 pm
The point still remains with 3-5 seconds left on the shot clock, and everyone else guarded, there is no other BETTER option for Josh than to shoot the jumper. Trying to drive in that position will lead to a charge, as his defender has an advantage. No one has said whats the better option with 3-5 seconds left on the clock for Josh to do. I totally agree that Josh shouldn’t take ANY jumpers early in the shot clock. I hate it when he does that. But the truth is Josh RARELY takes any jumper in the early part of the shot clock. And the fact that so many people can’t understand there’s not a better option than that, shows who has played basketball competitively and who hasn’t. Its all about angles and passing lanes. And in that position Josh has no passing lane that isn’t more likely to lead to a turnover.
Ra'mon
January 27th, 2011
8:34 pm
Also, everyone who’s saying the Hawks should trade Josh. Majority of you guys are never around when Josh goes for 18/10 on a Hawks win. If the Hawks only lose because of Josh, then why does the ENTIRE team (full of grown men who are millionaires) look to this ‘cancer’ of a player to provide the energy, defense, and momentum every single game?
Sautee
January 27th, 2011
8:36 pm
SteveW,
Did you hear what the fans were chanting? I’m talking about Josh reacting to THAT.
And once again, I’m NOT excusing ANYTHING, but looking for a reason for the way things happened. You say “You can be competitive and still play under control. ” and I agree. I just don’t think Josh was “out of control”, but that he had a bad shooting night, AND made a couple of bad decisions. And to me, a possible cause was his trying too hard to shut the Bucks fans up.
Once again, if you think I’m defending Josh, or excusing his play, then go back and read both posts again.
Ron
January 27th, 2011
8:37 pm
Najeh,
I can see where you are coming from. I would put the majority of the blame for yesterday’s loss on L.D., personally. At any rate, your Josh discussions have some pretty valid points and the Bibby criticisms are well warranted. One thing I have to add in though is that regardless of whether the shots that Josh took last night were good or bad, I feel like 20 shots is too many for him. I’d like to see him in the 10-15 attempt range, considering we have lots of offensive options on this team.
Najeh Davenpoop
January 27th, 2011
8:47 pm
“regardless of whether the shots that Josh took last night were good or bad, I feel like 20 shots is too many for him. I’d like to see him in the 10-15 attempt range, considering we have lots of offensive options on this team.”
No argument from me there, and I’d also add that Al should be getting more than 9 shots.
O'Brien
January 27th, 2011
8:51 pm
SteveW,
You said “Woodson was very stern with Josh last season and basically would bench him if he’d take those long 3 point shots. L.D. doesn’t use that same strict philosophy with Josh.”
Woody was stern with Josh because Josh shot horrible from 3 for years.
2004 season: 17% from 3
2005 season: 31% from 3
2006 season: 25% from 3
2007 season: 25% from 3
2008 season: 30% from 3
Any coach with any sense would tell Josh to stay away from 3’s, because he was a PF with a career 26% from 3. And to Josh’s credit, he stayed away last year. He only attempted 7 three pointers last season.
This season, Josh is shooting 37% from 3, and he is playing SF too, so why should LD be as stern with Josh as Woody was, when it is clear that Josh is a much better 3 pt shooter this year?
BTW, this season, Marvin is 31% from 3, JJ is 30% from 3, Jamal is 37% from 3, and Bibby is 46% from 3.
According to the numbers, Josh is tied with Jamal as the second best 3 point shooter on this team. That is why LD goes easier on him than Woody did.