Atlanta Hawks: On Drew and Teague
The Hawks can use Teague's skills but he can't get regular minutes. (Benny Sieu / Milwaukee Journal Sentinel)
Back on Dec. 16, before the Hawks played the Celtics at TD Garden, I had a conversation with L.D. about his team’s pick-and-roll defense. I noted that, according to Synergy Sports Technology, his team ranked next-to-last in the league at defending pick-and-roll ballhandlers (they now rank 28th, allowing .91 points per possession).
(Synergy counts only those times when the screen-roll ballhandler is “responsible for the ending action which can be a shot attempt, turnover or drawing a foul that results in free throws.” So it does not count the times when the initial pick-and-roll leads to other actions as the Hawks scramble. Notably, the Hawks rank first in the league at defending the roll man, allowing only .82 points per possession. I ‘m thinking this is what is known as “The Josh Smith effect.”)
So I asked L.D. how the Hawks could ever hope to be effective defending the perimeter given the guys who are playing the most minutes:
“Looking at our personnel, a lot of it involves Mike. Teams know that. We try and disguise some things to not have him as involved. He is at the stage of his career where it is tough for him to defend pick-and-rolls and teams know that. We try to do some things to disguise it, try to manipulate it. He is not the only one. We have just got guys with the initial impact of the ball, they have a hard time with it. We just try to manipulate it a little bit to make it a little bit easier for him. It’s something we will continue to work at.”
This naturally led to a question about Teague. I let L.D. know I was not trying to suggest that Teague is a cure-all for the team’s woes defending the pick-and-roll but certainly he is the best option the Hawks have right now. He has the potential to become even better at it as he gains experience and sees more situations.
Is it that L.D. believes Teague is giving up too much offensively in relation to Bibby and Jamal to give Teague more minutes?
“I’m trying to find that balance. You give up certain things with certain guys. Teague has the speed, the quickness, the footspeed to defend the pick-and-roll. But you give up things in other areas with him on the floor. He vs. Mike on the floor, obviously Mike is a shotmaker and you give that up. It’s tick for tack. You try to get both guys better in areas where they are deficient. You try to get Mike better at defending the pick-and-rolls, We have got to manipulate it a little bit and help him out as much as you can with that. Teague, because he does a pretty good job with it, we constantly try to improve his shot and keep him in an attack mode offensively and get to the basket and finishing. You give up something on one end, you give up something else at the other.”
This is a good time to compare Teague’s production and efficiency in 2009-10 to this season so far.
Teague’s production per 36 minutes is better in nearly every category. His effective field-goal percentage, true-shooting percentage, assist percentage, rebound percentage and block percentage are all improved. His turnover percentage is up slightly. Teague’s usage percentage is down even as his minutes are up. The numbers may not look as good if he were to get even more minutes, and chances are he will never be an offensive threat like Bibby and Jamal, but Teague is not killing the Hawks offensively and there are signs he’s getting better.
Back to Boston: Hours after that conversation with L.D., Teague had probably his best game of the season. Afterward, Teague talked about taking L.D.’s message to heart and focusing on being aggressive and assertive. L.D. praised Teague’s play: “That’s what I am looking for. I need that.” Drew said this in a way that made me think that he really does want Teague to become a permanent fixture in the rotation and believes he can do it.
And so what happened from there? Teague played 15 solid minutes in the next game against Charlotte, then seven minutes at New Jersey and eight vs. Orlando. Teague got 18 minutes against Cleveland, then a DNP-CD against New Orleans. Jamal sat out all of those games except New Orleans, and there are some good pick-and-roll teams among that group. Yet Teague still couldn’t get consistent minutes.
That led to last night at Milwaukee. Before the game I reminded L.D. of our conversation at Boston and asked him if he still thought Teague was too much of a liability offensively in relation to Jamal and Bibby to warrant a permanent spot in the rotation:
“He certainly brings the speed aspect to what we do and we definitely need that. When he is playing with that kind of reckless abandonment with his speed, we are effective. He has to know when to punch it and when to back off. Certainly his speed is something we don’t have, and hopefully he will continue to learn and continue to get better in that area because that is something we desperately need from him. I didn’t play him last night but certainly looking to get him in there tonight, especially against Boykins.”
And then Drew did get Teague in there, and Teague had another fine game while playing 18 minutes. Afterward Teague talked about Lester Conner staying in his ear and encouraging him to impact the game. Drew praised Teague’s performance.
So what will all this mean for Teague from here on out? Based on what’s happened so far, it’s hard to say. The whole thing has been a bit confusing. As an organization the Hawks talked all summer about the importance of Teague becoming a major contributor. Then he got hurt in training camp and fell behind. It seems he’s been playing catch-up ever since and hasn’t always been afforded the opportunity to work his way through rough stretches or rewarded for his good performances.
Certainly L.D. has given Teague more opportunities than his predecessor on the bench. But I think a fair interpretation of events is that, despite L.D.’s stated desire to mold the Hawks into a defensive team and develop his young players, his decisions in this matter reflect a different tact. (Shoot, it makes me wonder how willing he’d be to stick with the promising “big” lineup if Twin were a young guy. Would it just mean more Etan Thomas?)
Since L.D.’s actions with Teague don’t always match his words, I can only conclude that he is reluctant to reduce minutes for his two veteran “shotmakers” with defensive deficiencies for the sake of finding more playing time for his most physically-gifted perimeter defender. This is happening even though L.D. says the team needs Teague’s skill set, Teague has shown signs of improving offensively and he is key to both the team’s fortunes this season and in the future.
Drew has said that because Jamal, Bibby and Teague have such contrasting strengths and weaknesses he’s always thinking about making adjustments on the fly. He doesn’t have one guard who can do it all so he’s trying to match his available pieces to situations. But so far Teague seems to be getting lost in that equation. Stay tuned, blog people.
MC
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196 comments Add your comment
darrell starks
December 29th, 2010
3:03 am
Scoop my opinion is that teague starting make the hawks better, you must have guys playing a certain role not always offensive skills, bibby defense doesn’t make up for his offense, that’s why guys like NATE ROBINSON, DEVIN HARRIS, AND OTHER POINT GUARDS HAVE CAREER GAMES AGAINST THE HAWKS BECAUSE OF BIBBY STARTING.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
December 29th, 2010
3:07 am
STARTER TEAGUE, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, COLLINS
BENCH BIBBY, JAMAL, MARVIN, POWELL, ZAZA
RESERVE MOE, DAMIEN
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
December 29th, 2010
3:20 am
MC except lebron james what nba player can guard josh at the 3 in the post? NO BODY IF LD RECOGNIZE THAT JOSH SHOULD AVG AT LEAST 20POINTS A GAME.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
Miles D
December 29th, 2010
4:01 am
NOW WE TALKIN MC!! I am TIRED of LD saying that he is trying to put his stamp on the team starting with the defensive end but not giving our best defensive players more time in favor of just “shotmakers”! After all, defense turns into “great” offense with steals and fast-break points! It creates easier baskets and momentum (or breaks it for opposing teams) for those times when the offense is stagnant! Gerald Wilkens did a GREAT job on Lebron but rarely hits the floor!! LD has to come to understand that those type of players that make those type of plays can “CHANGE THE CULTURE” of our team and provide us with a real identity! But you know..maybe he does but politics get in the way of the game too! But if he were really smart he would learn how to be more flexible in his approach and mix and match his personnel according to their assets! Put Teague at the point sometimes.. move Bib to the 2, JJ to the 3, Josh at the 4, and Al at the 5 and run the other teams ass off the court! Cause with Teague’s defense and quickness he could get easy baskets or more wide open shots for guys and THAT would make us roll!! He could also, learn to use guys to dictate the pace of the game and when we slow the game down or what not! But really he needs to show our young guys that he has confidence in them to get the job done, and not just hold them hostage til somebody gets hurt, AND to stick to his guns! STOP COMPROMISING WITH GUYS! IF THEY KEEP TAKING ILL-ADVISED SHOTS, MAKING BAD TURNOVERS! SIT ‘EM!! And don’t be afraid to think outside the box “be water”! LOL! LET’S GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MsDee
December 29th, 2010
5:56 am
Again I say, LD MUST BE under locks with Sund with playing Jamal 30+ min over Teague and Mo Evans over D. Wilkins due to trading options cause there is no way, AND I MEAN NO WAY, u give Teague AND Wilkins a DNP against New Orleans when New Orleans arent THAT GOOD!! They lost BIG TIME against the TIMERWOLVES!!! WHAT??? There is NO excuses to not be playing Teague more this season, NO FREAKIN WAY!!
MsDee
December 29th, 2010
6:00 am
Just listen how LD over looks MC’s concerns when it comes to Teague! He can’t give the CORRECT explanation as to why Teague isnt getting is just dues in more playing time. Sunds has LD hands tied right now until the trading deadline has passed. And I guess Teague understands the situation as well since he doesnt seem to ‘upset’ that he got a DNP the other game. He basically saids, “as long as we are winning, I’m fine”
MsDee
December 29th, 2010
6:01 am
Teague basically saids, “as long as we are winning, I’m fine”..YEAH RIGHT, TEAGUE!!
chris
December 29th, 2010
7:02 am
“his decisions in this matter reflect a different tact.”
FYI – It should be different “tack”, meaning direction. It comes from the sailing term to tack back and forth.
dap01
December 29th, 2010
8:13 am
MC: Thanks for a great blog. I appreciate you asking those questions.
If Teague and Bibby played exactly the same minutes each game, who would have the better stats?
The Hawks can only get better if they improve the perimeter defense. Bibby is a great guy but he is the worst on ball defender in the LEAGUE.
If we go with Teague there is a chance that he takes us further. If we stay with Bibby, there is not much hope for improvement.
dap01
December 29th, 2010
8:15 am
If LD keeps trying the same things that got Woody fired, his stock will continue to drop.
Mike is back
December 29th, 2010
8:21 am
MC, U DEFINITLY GOT SOME MIKE IN YA BRO, cuz u been bringing it of late…YOU AND BIG RAY…are in playoff form RIGHT NOW…please talk to LD and ask him to pleeeeeeeeeeeease…GET MY HAWKS…the same way. lol
I wrote a master piece last night…BM must have got me again…o well…gotta say somin.
LET’S GO LD…it time to back up some this exotic fancy state of art offense stuff…you were pushing at the start of the season…all we were hearing about was your desire to get more out Collins and Teague…now that they have step their game up…WHAT’YA GONNA DUE…hey that’s a song…ooosp!!
Anyway…did I tell everyone how please I was with the motion offense LD has implemented. LOL…LET’S GO HAWKS…IT TIME TO PICK IT UP!!!!!!!!!!
Westurd
December 29th, 2010
8:29 am
Hawks fans are willing to take whatever bumps we might hit if we give Teague the burn he needs. WE UNDERSTAND the long term impact this will have on the team…..why can’t LD or the ASG.
STRETCH
December 29th, 2010
8:45 am
With productive big men at a premium, several clubs are interested in Camby’s services. He’s still averaging 11 rebounds and 1.8 blocks a game, which would provide a huge boost to any contender. While acquiring Camby is probably a long shot, Orlando is one team I’m told has interest. ESPN.com
The Rockets, looking to use Yao Ming’s $17.7 million expiring contract to add a potential star or two to its roster, recently called Sacramento and offered the 7-foot-6 center for Samuel Dalembert and DeMarcus Cousins. The Kings had no interest, and are definitely not trading Cousins anywhere, according to sources. ESPN.com
Denver is trying to put Al Harrington and his five-year, $33 million deal into any trade it makes for Anthony. ESPN.com
Portland is as active on the trade market as any club, with Andre Miller’s name being mentioned regularly. But while it’d like to make a change, the uncertainty about Brandon Roy’s health and future has left the Blazers a bit unsure of what, exactly, they’d like to do. ESPN.com
And what are your Atlanta Hawks doing? Forgot…Sund is waiting for the “core” to gell. What a sorry organization!
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
8:58 am
Thanks for that journey into LD’s mind MC. Even casual fans must wonder what LD’s thinking when he doesn’t use Teague on quick guards and against great pick and roll teams.
vava74
December 29th, 2010
9:11 am
A small curious look into a guy we all know and “love”
:
#32 Morris, Randolph G7 MPG 37.4 FG51.1% 3p% 0.0% FT% 72.5% OReb 3.6 DReb 9.0 RPG 12.6 APG 3.0 FPG 4.6 SPG 1.9 BPG 1.7 TO 3.6 PPG 33.3
Chinese League Stats!
Will everyone “believe” that Morris will be back in the league after posting these numbers as they did last year after having sight of Siler’s?
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
9:12 am
The Wizards might be asking around, but I seriously doubt they pull the trigger on a McGee trade, especilly not McGee who’s still producing a rookie scale salary.
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
9:13 am
producing on a rookie scale salary*
Fresh
December 29th, 2010
9:14 am
1. Bench Bibby +
2. Trade Jamal +
3. Start Teague
Ending Result = The Hawks become a better team.
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
9:15 am
Ken Strickland,
Another fact proving the NBA sucks this year is that so many teams are going on massive winning streaks.
You look at Miami’s schedule and you think they’ll lose maybe 6 more games this year because the NBA blows
vava74
December 29th, 2010
9:16 am
On Teague:
I think he will do well in the future and I believe that LD has failed to increment his usage in some games where he would certainly help.
One of the things I notice in his game and that I like a lot (that passes unnoticed) is that almost every single pass he makes to an open man is perfectly directed to the optimum “catch to shoot” location.
Almost every single pass.
You should look into this during the next games.
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
9:18 am
I look at Miami’s schedule and it looks like we have wayyyy more back-to-backs than they do
FIRE SUND
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
9:21 am
vava74,
Idk, from what I hear over-the-hill or vet minimum NBA player can head over there and average Jordanesque stats (not you Steve Francis, sorry buddy).
But good for Randolph! He’s probably like Dwight Howard over there.
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
9:27 am
I would trade Jamal Crawford for Marcus Camby straight up.
Marvin comes off the bench, Jordan Crawford becomes back up shooting guard, and Teague gets more minutes, making the Hawks a much better defensive team.
i_am_soulstar
December 29th, 2010
9:30 am
I just hate that Camby’s so injury prone. Makes me sad.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 29th, 2010
9:33 am
Daniel said this:
” I mean why not just get Tony Parker for Jeff Teague ”
Why would San Antone trade Parker for Teague, when The Spurs have the best record in the NBA and are set to make this final Championship Run with that veteran roster?
Where is Daniel’s logic? Why would any GM do that? This stuff has to make sense or you lose credibility fast. We need a PG? What can we do to get one and is Sund looking to upgrade anything at all?
Big Ray
December 29th, 2010
9:40 am
Hilarious.
No matter what Larry Drew does, he will be compared to the guy he used to work for.
If he’s a liar, he learned it from Woody.
If he is in love with the shot-making tandem of backcourt players, he learned it from Woody.
If you’re going to blame him for acting like Woody, then give Woody the credit for being that influential. I mean, who else could Drew have learned from, huh? Either that, or judge the man on his own merits. But I know better than to expect something like that. It’s only too convenient to hate on the closest target, especially if you were in love with Woody to begin with.
Funny how people are all over Drew for having to deal with the same problems that were here when Woody was here. Yep, the same PERSONNEL problems. Yet, there have been differences on both offense and defense.
Ah, but here is the difference: the switching defense was a scheme that the Hawks relied on all the time to hide the defensive issues that Bibby and Crawford create. Instead of doing that, Drew leaves these guys exposed and says they gotta live with defending their own men. The result is not having Horford and Smith out defending on the perimeter.
Big Ray
December 29th, 2010
9:41 am
drmaryb ,
Daniel is just being a smart-a$$. He does that sometimes….it’s entertaining and therapeutic…
Ry
December 29th, 2010
9:41 am
This was written in an article by MC:
“In what has become an ongoing dialogue this season, Drew chatted with forward Josh Smith about his shot selection on Monday. According to Hoopdata.com, in the past six games entering Monday, Smith had missed 27 of 33 shots from beyond 15 feet.”
Is Smith just stupid or is he defiant? Either way, it is not good. This has been ongoing for the past couple of years.
Hawks Fan
December 29th, 2010
9:42 am
Why can’t we get a coach that can develop talent. It’s pretty obvious Woodson or Drew can’t. Bibby should get 15 minutes a game maximum. Play JC2 and Teague as many minutes as possible or we’ll never know what they can do. The few games I’ve watched this year Teague really looks improved. The offense and defense intensity picks up. Josh, Marvin and Joe seem to play better. Stop the foolishness and get a coach in here.
vava74
December 29th, 2010
9:43 am
i_am_soulstar,
I am perfectly aware of the fact that stats on the Chinese League are what they are.
I was taking a blow at the people who thought that Siler was anything more than a huge body.
Randolph has terrific basketball fundamentals (post moves) and a size which allow him to dominate on a league like the Chinese.
Nonetheless, I actually believe that if Randolph had the desire (which he apparently does not) an experience like this one could allow him to get his game back and still be a productive player.
Siler does not have the fundamentals, only the desire, so I believe that he will quickly be out of the league again.
If they could switch portions of their brains (or feed RandMo with some seriously wicked amphetamines) the result would be a heck of a player.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 29th, 2010
9:43 am
Najeh, I and many other bloggers on here pushed for perimeter defenders all Summer long:
Tony Allen
Matt Barnes
Raja Bell
Damian Wilkens
Were ALL available and sorely needed. What did Sund do?
Nothing! Blame it on the Sund-Shine don’t Blame it on the Boogie!
We have the same ole perimeter defense issues we had since Mookie retired, that was what? 2 Owners ago and now 16 years.
This team went from 13 wins to 53 wins and hadn’t made the playoffs in 13 years until Joe ands his Boys came together 3 years ago. We have been to 3 straight playoffs with this core, but we are stagnant in the 2nd Round, actually worse in Tound 2 as of last season in record setting 101 pts fashion.
We need to UPGRADE to move forward, with all the Eastern Teams getting better?
We have stuck our heads up our ASKG Azzes and are reporting old news as though it is Breaking News!
Either play Teague and have growing pains or get us a damned PG!
We could have had Raymond Felton! I know Charlotte wish they had kept him!
We don’t need a world beater – We just need a “Change We Can Believe In!”
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
9:49 am
When’s the last time Bibby did a fancy move: cross over another point guard, did a step back jumper, executed a fast break?
He is good for hitting contested shots and playing shoddy defense
START TEAGUE
northcyde
December 29th, 2010
9:49 am
The one thing in Bibby’s ( and LD’s favor ), is this important fact. The Hawks simply play better basketball with Mike Bibby on the floor, even with his defensive issues.
HONESTLY . . when you look at Teague’s “opponent counterpart production per 48 minutes” stats ( on 82games.com ), it indicates that Teague ( for the season ) has been getting lit up by the opposing PG.
That may or may not be true the past few weeks. But overall this season, the opposing PG has thrived while Teague was in the game.
But the only thing we as fans haven’t seen yet, is if Teague, playing with JJ, Marvin, Smith and Horford in the lineup at the same time, can be a better unit, than with Bibby running with those guys.
It’s just that Bibby has a gaudy +/- rating of over +100, and that’s easily the best on the team. That’s extremely hard to dismiss, no matter how horrible Bibby is on defense.
Big Ray
December 29th, 2010
9:53 am
Now I wonder if some people are noticing these things:
1) Mike Bibby is playing better on both offense and defense this season. Last season, we all thought he had one foot in the proverbial grave. But the truth is, the guy is better on both ends of the floor. On the defensive end, he hasn’t gotten any faster, and he won’t. But his effort has been a lot better than it was under Woody. Say what you want about that, but I’m sure that I’m not the only one who has seen it.
2) Drew can talk about getting Bibby to be better on defense, but it’s not realistic from a physical standpoint. He can’t/won’t get better. But Teague on the other hand, can get better at everything, even on offense.
3) I have to say that I’m not happy with Drew where Teague is concerned. Teague justified the spare minutes earlier in the season. He has, however, justified more playing time in the last several games, and Drew has still gone with other options.
4) Part of the issue with Drew’s decisions is this… and a lot of people have forgotten about this – Drew is expected to bring this team to greater heights (i.e., more wins), with damn near the exact same personnel . There are no excuses for some of his decisions, but you better believe that a part of this is the expectation that he can at least maintain last year’s win total and record position. Yep, management placed all the pressure on him, and none of it on themselves. Ba$tard$.
And you know this is true. How many times have you see the quotes where ownership/management keeps yapping about “we like our core”, “we’re going to wait and see what this group does”, “we’re patient, we gotta let these guys grow” and all that other BS?
5) Horford has improved under Drew. Pachulia has been exposed. Collins has improved under Drew.
6) Any point guard woes can be attributed to a single move in Hawks history. “With the 2nd pick of the 2005 NBA draft, the Atlanta Hawks select…”
We missed two things with that pick, and we still are missing those two things: A TRUE TEAM LEADER and A TOP FLIGHT STARTING POINT GUARD FOR THE NEXT 5-10 YEARS.
Not very often do you get a solid starting point guard who can take the job in the first or second year, if you are picking outside the lottery, or below the first 15 or 16 picks, even in a guard-heavy draft. Exceptions like Rajon Rondo exist, but there are few such exceptions. Teague was the 7th guy picked, that ain’t a first or second year starter. Even the higher picks tend to struggle.
But when you ignore two obvious stars so you can add another guy that you hope will turn into Glenn Robinson, you screw yourself. That’s what we did, and we’ve been paying for it ever since, trying to mix and match different guys like Bibby, Lue, AJ, Jamal (off the bench), Ivey, Teague, and others ever since. And there ain’t no hope in sight.
Even a high pick and talent like Mike Conley hasn’t come on strong until his 4th year.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 29th, 2010
10:02 am
Game Manager!
Aye Najeh! Do you think Matty-Ice managed that game well enough to win?
McClure fumbled the hand-off and Turner fumbled at the 1 yard line, both errors lead to 14 pts. Matty- Ice threw NO picks unlike Brees with 2 and one for a TD.
Falcons Defense was stout @ 17 pts allowed and stopped the run against the reigning Champs, (whose Defense stopped our run and pass plays). We should have gone for it @ 4th Down & 6, we been converting 4th Downs all year, esp. With 2:37 mins left to win it.
So, do you think Falcons are still Super Bowl Contenders? I do.
____________________
Sorry folks, back to the Hawks: I see parallels with both franchises when it comes to 4th Qrtr Coaching decisions. We are losing winnable games in the 4th Qrtrs. Falcons are a lot closer than the Hawks, But the Hawks need to upgrade talent badly! Thomas got rid of MeAngelo Hall (a nice talent) to improve team chemistry and attitude. So what will Sund do?
Anything?
Big Ray
December 29th, 2010
10:04 am
Northcyde ,
No way is Teague nearly as good with the starting unit as Bibby is. No way. And not for another year or two, if we look at his total curve of growth.
I can certainly understand where you’re coming from with those stats that suggest Teague’s counterparts have been lighting him up. I think there is more detail here. Teague defends pretty well as long as he doesn’t come up against a hard screen. But it’s not so much that he gets beaten on defense as it is that with the exception of the bulk of the last several games, Teague wasn’t scoring worth a crap.
So, in effect, a guy could shoot 3-9 against Teague and score only 6 or 7 points. But when Teague isn’t scoring at all, or is only putting up 2 points (happened way too often), it’s gonna look bad. His defense certainly isn’t perfect (but can be pretty dang good), but his offense has been flat out disgusting early on.
Also, I haven’t been on Bibby for his defense. I have watched him this season, and there is no doubt in my mind that he has been better, despite the lack of switching to hide his physical limitations. Dude has simply given more effort and gotten into passing lanes more, and even defended decently when he’s been posted up.
The problem is what is has been, and what many are blind to because they are dazzled by his dribble: JAMAL CRAWFORD.
Not only is the effort rarely there, but when it comes, it is in mere spurts, and when his shot is off, he kills us on both ends. Literally KILLS us. When his shot is on, and the opposition isn’t playing well, nobody notices the missed assignments, the half-a$$ed efforts, and the lost looking approach.
Back to the original subject….Teague isn’t close to being somebody who can put Bibby on the bench for more minutes. He’s earned his 18 mpg game recently, but the trend must continue. Bibby is still better until Teague can score more efficiently and consistently, and from outside. And, Bibby is still a better passer and ball handler. Teague has to learn to play under control all the time, the though team as a whole is turning the ball over like crazy some nights.
Big test against Golden State tonight. Their guards are superior to ours…and that’s a fact.
Still can’t believe we took Salim Stoudamire over Monta Ellis back in ‘05. Man, we messed that draft all the way up….
Maurice
December 29th, 2010
10:14 am
So why did we get rid of Woody?
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
10:14 am
FIRE RICK SUND
ASG SELL THE TEAMS PLEASE
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
10:15 am
HAS LD ASKED FOR NEW PLAYERS?
HE, AS DOES EVERYONE ELSE, RECOGNIZES OUR PGS ARE BOTH ONE DIMENSIONAL
GET A NEW PG
LOWRY UDRIH ELLIS
Ken Strickland
December 29th, 2010
10:17 am
I don’t understand this love affair both MWoodson and LDrew have with Bibby. They both seem willing to weaken the teams overall DEF, and create difficulties for other players, by employing gimmicks to try and compensate for his liabilities. It’s not like he’s a prolific scoring PG, hell, he’s not even consistent.
Since when did we come to rely so heavily on 3pt shooting that we feel compelled to continue starting Bibby, and compensating for his many limitations? HOW CAN ANY TEAM EXPECT TO IMPROVE AND PROGRESS IF IT’S HC INSISTS ON DEPENDING ON THE NBA’S MOST LIMITED, AND ONE OF ITS LEAST PRODUCTIVE STARTING PG, WHO’S ALSO A TOTAL DEF LIABILITY?
How in the devil can any HC actually believe Bibby can provide us with a matchup advantage against anyone? In the NBA, it’s been established that PG is THE most important position in basketball, and a chain(team) is no stronger than its weakest link. Bibby is our weakest link, and for some unknown reason, both Woodson and Drew have found it necessary to protect, maintain and depend on our weakest link.
After playing only one third of the season, LDrew has already acknowledged Bibby has started to show signs of wearing down. We’re definitely not seeing the energy we saw from him at the start of the season. However, we are starting to see the same poor DEF effort and OFF inconsistencies that plagued him all of last yr. Instead of LDrew making adjustments or changes at PG, he’s decided to do what Woodson did, and that’s resort to DEF gimmicks to try and mask the obvious.
A lot of Bibby fans cling to the idea that he makes a lot of clutch shots, and they’re correct. But, this reminds me of the fued between John Elway and Dan Reeves, and a question he responded to about HC Dan Reeves after he was fired. The interviewer reminded Elway that it was under Dan Reeves that he became the NFL’s all time leader in come from behind victories.
Elway responded by saying Dan Reeves’ decision making, conversative approach, and play calling, is what put the team in most of those come from behind situations in the 1st place. So, with that said, maybe if we made a change or major adjustment at PG, we wouldn’t end up in so many situations where Bibby has to rescue us with his clutch 3pt shooting.
The Hawks certainly have more than enough OFF weapons to allow us to rely more on the speed, quickness penetrating ability and superior DEF of JTeague, rather than the 3pt shooting and atrocious DEF of MBibby, along with his other liabilities.
northcyde
December 29th, 2010
10:34 am
You’re preaching to the Choir on the Jamal Crawford issue. The dude can ball, but the minute he shows ineffectiveness, you have to pull him.
With him, even if he’s playing well on offense, you can’t let him miss more than 4 shots in a row, before taking him out. And like with Powell, you have to keep a close eye on if his effort on the defensive end, is actually more of a detriment than his offensive production.
Playing him at the point has been a disaster, and it’s not a coincidence that when LD decides to bypass Teague in favor of Jamal at the point, that the team usually struggles.
One of our worst lineups this year, is the Jamal – JJ – Marvin – Smith – Horford lineup.
At some point, LD is going to have to give Teague COMPLETE CONTROL of the 2nd unit, and have Jamal play more off the ball. He can still be aggressive when he gets it, but Teague needs control of the offense, to see if the 2nd unit can be more efficient.
When Jamal has control, like you said, it’s “And-1 Tricky Dribble to Get His Own Shot” time. Might as well call Jamal “Hot Sauce”.
Jamal should play somewhere around 25 minutes a game. If he has it going, and he’s not giving points back on the defensive end, you can afford to play him more minutes.
But if he doesn’t have it going, you can’t play him extended minutes.
northcyde
December 29th, 2010
10:38 am
My comment before the last one I posted is “under moderation”, because I had 2 hyperlinks in it. It answers Mr. Strickland’s last question on why Woody and LD seem to be “in love” with Bibby.
Can the rest of the blog see that post on why I think LD plays Bibby? If not, could Big Ray or MC rescue the post?
ignition
December 29th, 2010
10:39 am
Awesome blog… Hold LD’s feet to the fire its about accountability…
Our perimeter defense is awful and yet our best defender is hardly on the floor getting his reps in and building his confidence.. We have more than enough scoring options it’s time to get the defense down pat.. I don’t care if Bibby ever sees the floor if he can’t guard anyone..
JeJe
December 29th, 2010
10:46 am
If that ending lineup with Jamal with PG is so bad, why do we use it EVERY game?
Geemack
December 29th, 2010
10:47 am
Ken Strickland,
Excellent post,
The entire city see the benefits JT bring to our most glaring weakness…Defense.
Hopefully the coaches will see it before it’s to late.
He would also help with getting the Hawks more fast break opportunities.
I don’t understand why we walk the ball up some much on offense.
J from the A
December 29th, 2010
11:01 am
northcyde 9:49am post — people should read it.
At the beginning of the season, Teague struggled defensively, _completely_ losing his man way too often. Where Teague might have had the abilities to be the better defender, he simply lacked the fundamentals to be _any_ better than Bibby. [Trade speed for fundamentals, and the result is still bad defense.] Of course, everyone saw/remembered what they wanted to see/remember. They forgot the times Teague got broken down by a weak crossover move, but remembered Bibby being a step behind his man.
[By the way, Bibby has improved his defensive intensity this year. He is really fighting. Nonetheless, "fast don't lie." Bibby simply cannot keep up with many of the younger, faster PGs.]
However, Teague has looked better both offensively and defensively over the last few games, so I am willing to _tentatively_ see him as becoming a better defensive player than Bibby. [Yes, I meant exactly what I said.]
Take off the rose-tinted glasses when viewing Teague. Take of the cloud-lined glasses when viewing Bibby. Then, you just may have some of the answers you are looking for.
Now with all that said, I am all for Teague getting more playing time in spite of the fact that he is not yet a better ball player [perhaps not even a better defender] than those in front of him in the rotation. He has progressed noticeably this season. If Teague is “ready” by playoff times, this Hawks team may be a real[/at least a minor] threat.
northcyde
December 29th, 2010
11:03 am
Ken . . if what you say is true, why does Bibby lead the team in +/- ratio? Your conclusion is that Bibby’s lack of offense and poor defense is the reason why Bibby is in position to make “clutch” shots.
But almost every lineup Bibby is in, he posts a positive number, despite his defense.
Drew, like the previous coach, is reluctant to give Teague full control, because Teague does make careless mistakes at times. And like the previous coach, Drew trusts his vets more than the younger players.
Teague will really have to play almost “lights out” for Drew to have complete trust in him . . . or see Bibby fall off like he did in the 2nd half of last season, which may force him to play Teague ( even though his tendency has been to play Jamal more ).
Rufus1
December 29th, 2010
11:04 am
Great article by Bret LaGree
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2010/12/28/average-hawks-in-need-of-financial-creativity/
He touches on the Jamal, Bibby and Joe on the floor at the sametime….They are down 4.9pts a game.
J from the A
December 29th, 2010
11:05 am
@northcyde 10:38: the awaiting moderation comment does not show to the rest of us … it probably never will. [I had a couple of those under moderation comments a bit back, and they never were cleared.] You might want to re-post the original post into two separate posts???
It was not a bad pick
December 29th, 2010
11:06 am
Big Ray
“Still can’t believe we took Salim Stoudamire over Monta Ellis back in ‘05. Man, we messed that draft all the way up”….
Both of the players took in the 2005 draft were never given an oppurtunity to showcase any skills…Salim should still be playing for the Hawks..The kid could shoot,drive, and flat out score..Woody ruined Salim.the worst move Bk made was hiring Woodson.Bk gave Woodson a deep talented roster,Woody went with old Journeymen Lue,Flip,Mo,A johnson…Marvin over Paul and DWill were not a terrible pick…for these reasons
1.Neither Paul or DWill have won anything..Not like you passed on Jordan
2.On draft night Bilas said 5 or 6 years down the road Marvin might be the best of the whole draft..Now, if Drew would let Marvin be the 2nd option, Marvin will score 20 a night easily, Woody and Drew love for joe Max to have the ball all game…Then when Jamal comes in at the pg, even though he is a sg, he have the ball all game…
give Doc Rivers this team, he would have contended for a title
c Pachullia/Morris,Solo
pf Al,josh,diaw,solo
sf Marvin,diaw,josh
sg Joe,childress,salim
pg bibby,law,salim