Atlanta Hawks: Hawks 91, Magic 81
Al and Co. made Dwight work for his. (Curtis Compton / ccompton@ajc.com)
- You can put asterisks next to this W and the one at Orlando if you want. The Magic were without Jameer and just getting over the flu (a fact they were sure to remind everyone) for that Dec. 6 game. This time they sent out three rotation players who hadn’t even practiced with the team yet.
- “We caught them at the right time,” J.J. said. “They’ve got new guys who haven’t gotten acclimated. They were a little vulnerable and we took advantage.”
- With that out of the way, let’s acknowledge that the Hawks gave a good effort tonight and have seemed to figure out a plan for dealing with their arch-nemesis. “To be successful against them we’ve obviously got to be physical with Dwight,” Twin said. “We’ve got a lot of big guys on this team and we’ve got to use our fouls against him.”
- I was as skeptical as anyone when the Hawks re-signed Twin and said Woody should have played him more so he’d be ready to do battle Dwight. Got to admit that in three games he’s done a competent job bodying up to Dwight and making him shoot over him. He lacks mobility and hops but he’s smart and stout.
- “Any time you have to battle Dwight straight up, you don’t see many guys who can do that,” L.D. said. “He’s not a defensive stopper by any stretch of the imagination but he makes him work, he makes him earn it. He plays him with a physicality. That’s what we need.”
- Twin’s play against Dwight does two good things for the Hawks. One, it means they don’t have to scramble so much off of double teams and weaken their already suspect perimeter defense.
- Two, it allows Al to get some space to do work off the dribble, shake free for perimeter shots and not get worn down ( or in foul trouble) from leaning on Dwight.
- Dwight had 19 points on 14 shots but six turnovers. He started spending a lot of his time griping at the refs, always a good sign for his opponents.
- “Hats off to the bigs,” Smoove said. “Zaza came in, Etan and, number one, Jason Collins came in and played big minutes and just did whatever it took to frustrate Dwight.”
- Zaza played 11 (foul-shortened) minutes and had seven rebounds and a physical presence around the rim. Josh Powell, who usually does not provide that kind of tenacity or rebounding, got a DNC-CD.
- Fantastic line for Al: 24 points 10 for 15, 11 rebounds, four assists, no turnovers. He was equally effective with moves to the basket and the usual pick-and-pops.
- That fourth quarter was the textbook for how Marvin can help this team. The Magic used a small lineup for much of the period and Marvin collected five of their nine missed shots. He waited on the wings for the ball to swing to him and made open shots and also earned five free-throw attempts.
- Jameer predictably got by Bibby a few times but Bibby did a good job of at least making him go to where there was help. This was another game where Bibby more than offset his defensive deficiencies with his shotmaking. He got the Hawks going in the third quarter.
- It’s clear that Joe is going to play the same way whether he’s rusty or not. He forced a few shots and had five turnovers.
- Orlando’s newcomers combined for 27 points while making 6 of 23 shots. “Tonight the adjustment wasn’t so much on the offensive end but our defense,” J-Rich said. “It’s going to take a while for us to get used to each other but we’ll just have to keep working.”
- The Hawks went 5-5 in the stretch of 10 games that started in Miami and included Orlando twice, San Antonio and Boston. The Hawks were 2-3 in those games and 3-2 in the others with brutal losses at Detroit and New Jersey.
- “We need our guys to play with a sense of urgency every time we step on the floor, irregardless of who our opponent is,” L.D. said. “I think that’s been the disheartening thing, especially with our losses in New Jersey and our loss up in Detroit.”
- “We’ve been up and down,” Twin said. “I’m not worried about how we’re going to play against the Miamis and the Orlandos. For us we have to come into each game with that mentality of knowing were going to be in for a fight each game. I think there are a few games this season we definitely let slip away.”
Michael Cunningham
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224 comments Add your comment
darrell starks
December 21st, 2010
9:22 am
LD Good job coaching last night.
starte collins for the rest of the season and keep horford at power forward.
1.STAY BIG NO MATTER WHAT
2.KEEP HORFORD AT THE 4
3.BRING MARVIN OF THE BENCH HE PLAYS BETTER AND MAKE THE BENCH BIGGER AT THE 3
4.DEFENSE WILL BE THE ONLY WAY HAWKS WILL HAVE A CHANCE AS DIMASTRATED LAST NIGHT
5.STARTE BIBBY, JOE, JOSH, HORFORD, COLINS
BENCH JAMAL, DAMIEN, MARVIN, POWELL, ZAZA
RESERVE MOE, TEAGUE
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
slimjr
December 21st, 2010
9:42 am
Who gives a crap about winning a “Division”???.This team is configured to have another major collapse in the playoffs if they reach.
Josh for Rudy Gay
Duck/Cash/two 1st round picks for DWILL!!!
RICK SUND=BILLY KNIGHT JR
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
10:00 am
We need to keep this big starting lineup.
If the opposing team’s 5 is a bit too quick for Collins, just start ZaZa who’s playing a bit later as of late.
This usual starting 5 of Horf @ 5 and Smoove @ 4 is TOO SMALL. Go BIG and that way you have Jamal and Marvin as your scorers off the bench. You can call Collins/ZaZa your “Royal Ivey” but I think they’re better.
Those fans in green who were doing the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. for Dwight’s FTs….Were those the same people doing the “na na na na na na na na hey heyyyy goodbye” during Game 7 of the Bucks series? They were in the exact same location…Just wondering if it’s something that it set up in The Library (Philips) for certain home games
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
10:00 am
If we had started Collins on Brook Lopez every game this year, we’d have 2 more wins
Chad
December 21st, 2010
10:20 am
@SteveW
Just how is it not Rick Sund’s fault that this franchise is HANDICAPPED when he made the decision to sign Joe Johnson to max-contract? More than LeBron, more than Dirk, More the Amare ..etc.
Forget ASG and the luxury tax. Have you seen attendance? Why would they??
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
10:25 am
Well SVG’s post-game remarks were pretty much about how his new team had not learned any sets blah blah blah.
If ORL trades Redick or Q.Rich for a serviceable backup big, then that team is very thing at the backup wing position.
LD, IF THERE’S ONE THING YOU DO THE REST OF THE SEASON, GO BIG (NO HOMO) WITH THE STARTING LINEUP
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
10:28 am
*thin
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
10:29 am
“Forget ASG and the luxury tax. Have you seen attendance? Why would they??”
Because this team has no players that fans want to come out to see. If we had Wade or LBJ, it’d be a different story.
Also, how do you type in italics or bold here? or something?
yodaddy
December 21st, 2010
10:35 am
@ Najeh
Josh Smith is left handed. He needs to develop his right hand.
But anyway…Collins should continue to start…he has the highest plus/minus on our team. I care not if he ever scores.
Remember last night when he sent a message to the Orlando Magic??? That’s what I like to see….nobody come from wheeling through the lane.
The play was when JJ Redick coming through backscreens or whatever and Jason Collins blatantly and intentionally put him on his back. Yes he got the foul but THAT’S more of what we need. No more of that soft stuff letting people do whatever they want to on offense.
This also balances the defense because Josh Smith can play with any SF in the league (including Lebron) and most (as seen thus far) have a lot of trouble with getting around or shooting over him. He’s basically too big to post up on as well. Then he’s also a mismatch on offense because he’s been playing the 4 his whole career and is stronger than 90% or Small Forwards.
Al can stay on the 4 man and VOILA our perimeter defense becomes a lot better because the help isn’t coming from the 4 spot underneath the rim. It’s coming from the 3 out on the perimeter.
Now if Bibby gets beat on the pick and roll he would rotate to the 2 (Arenas or Redick) rather than to the 3 or 4 (Jason Richardson/Hedo/Bass). IDK if that made sense to the casual fan but basketball fans know what I’m talking about.
Then have 2 players that could start coming off the bench (Jamal & Marvin) and the bench is stronger and more efficient and consistent offensively. Mix in pace changers like Teague and Wilkins and hustle plays of ZaZa as well as Josh Powell’s experience and shooting I’d say we’ve found a rotation that could work wonders. Let Etan beat up some people when necessary.
Mo Evans needs to etch his name on a bench seat because if I were coaching he’d never play. He should just wear a suit to every game
northcyde
December 21st, 2010
10:40 am
Collins can’t ( or shouldn’t ) start every game, because he doesn’t rebound the ball well enough. It’s good to start him against teams that see the center being one of the top 2 or 3 scoring options. If he forces the center into a bad shot, Josh or Al ( or even Marvin ) can clear the offensive board.
But if it’s the other way around, and you have a situation in which Josh or Al is trying to defend a PF and force a tough shot, Collins is a lot less likely to clear the defensive boards.
Collins was ineffective in both the Boston and Detroit games. Games in which the Hawks needed Collins to do more rebounding than defending.
Drew is doing it right. As long as he realizes that Collins is only effective when he can hinder a scoring low post center, it’ll work out for the Hawks.
Keep in mind that Smith, while doing a lot of other things well, didn’t have the best offensive game in the world last night. Starting him at SF, especially against good defensive SFs, is not a good idea at all.
northcyde
December 21st, 2010
10:45 am
That should say . . “clear the defensive boards”
northcyde
December 21st, 2010
11:00 am
And I got Detroit on the mind for some reason . . I meant to say San Antonio.
Grandad
December 21st, 2010
11:09 am
Enter your comments here
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
11:25 am
“Collins can’t ( or shouldn’t ) start every game, because he doesn’t rebound the ball well enough. It’s good to start him against teams that see the center being one of the top 2 or 3 scoring options. If he forces the center into a bad shot, Josh or Al ( or even Marvin ) can clear the offensive board.
But if it’s the other way around, and you have a situation in which Josh or Al is trying to defend a PF and force a tough shot, Collins is a lot less likely to clear the defensive boards.”
It doesn’t matter if he can’ rebound.
We get beat up with our usual starting lineup. I’d even start ZaZa a few minutes if needed.
Having Marvin come off the bench would be a great thing for us, since we always talk about how much our bench sucks.
Starting a non-statistical 5 and leaving Bib and the other 3 out there is plenty of scoring for us.
Putting Horford against a Tyson Chandler or Bynum is not a good idea. And if Smoove continues to shoot [well], why not leave him at the 3?
We just can’t keep flipflopping back and forth and expecting Smoove and Al to have 2 defined positions each for this team. Horf said it was great Jason got to start at the 5 and put him at his natural position
I believe Horford’s rebounding is up too as a result of playing at the 4
bigdave
December 21st, 2010
11:41 am
though Collins might not be gathering the boards, he sure is keeping his assignment out of there allowing Al or Josh to claim them. more than any other big he understands rebounding technique. not just trying to out jump his assignment. we dont seem to give up as many offensive rebounds w/ him in the game.
KevinM
December 21st, 2010
11:45 am
“Worldwide Clyde
December 21st, 2010
3:42 am
MsDee we don’t have a chance in hell to win the East”
You can’t talk East until you talk division and seeding……IMO a successful season for the Hawks this season is the 3rd seed. The Hawks will still finish 3rd in the division at best.
What have I learned from the season so far? LD is not nearly as stubbord as Woody and while it hasn’t really benefitted from it, at least its been proven that the talent is lacking on this team with the exception of the 2 and 4 slots.
IMO, more Teague, the 3 headed monster of Collins/Zaza/Thomas and less of Marvin, and things might turn up a bit.
DAChef
December 21st, 2010
11:45 am
Back n the kitchen again planning my Christmas menu and speaking of planning, i think it would be more prudent LD to plan on starting Collins the remainder of the season for these reason: Boston will play Shaq at center (when healthy) no matter the opponent as does Orl with Dwight, Lakers with Bynum again when healthy, SA etc…thus, why shouldn’t we blureprint what the elite teams do and force our opponent to adjust to us rather than the other way around. LD should know by now that Horford is a beast at the 4 and should take full advantage EVERY game..Also i’m planning a New Years prediction that Dwight Howard will become a Hawk after next year, he will not sign an extension and return to the ATL in a Hawk uniform…Howard, Horford, and Smoove will compete for an annual title against Miami and perhaps NY and maybe Boston, so hold on Hawk fans the future is brighter for the A in the NBA..
Rufus1
December 21st, 2010
12:04 pm
My only complaint about LD
He has yet to figure out, he needs to coach to Defense 1st…so either Twin or Teague should be starting or both. On every great team their is one player that spacializes in the defensive art.
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
12:10 pm
HORF is exploding at the 4.
DO NOT LET HORF PLAY AT THE 5.
Even against Bogut, F’ing start Collins! He has started over 300 games in his career and STARTED IN 2 CONSECUTIVE NBA FINALS, VS THE LAKERS AND SPURS
yodaddy
December 21st, 2010
12:17 pm
@northcyde
they don’t need him to do anything except be out there as an enforcer type. Just simply to battle with the other team’s center who is more often than not Taller and Bigger than Al Horford. This way Horford doesn’t pick up two fouls in the first quarter and has a consistent rhythm throughout the game.
Plus…as funny as this sounds…Jason Collins is a veteran and is experienced and hardnosed…he’s been to the Finals as a starter!! I repeat…he’s been to the Finals as a starter…TWICE. Those Nets teams were pretty stout on defense as well.
He will do all the little things (like sending a message when coming into the lane, boxing out, taking charges, not turning the ball over, hustling, talking on defense, etc). So if he puts up 4 rebs and 4 points then that’s fine with me especially if it frees up Smith & Horford.
Josh Smith & Al Horford will still do most of the rebounding work and Joe Johnson likes to rebound as well. Moving Marvin to the bench also moves his rebounding to the second unit. ZaZa and Powell aren’t great rebounders but Marvin can come in and help them with that on both ends. It also adds an offensive “threat” with some good size on defense to the second unit. round out with Teague,Crawford and Damien and we are rolling.
The odd man out is Mo Evans…but that’s how it should be anyway…messing us up in the offseason by exercising his player option (which we wouldve used on a useful player) like he was all that. Like I said before…I wouldn’t pay him 1 dollar to play basketball.
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
12:18 pm
IT IS EARLY IN THE SEASON.
Bring Marvin off the bench and make him get used to that role.
A bench of Teague Jamal Marvin Powell and ZaZa is very solid. We need more DEFENSE in the starting lineup.
Start COLLINS and get him to lose a few more pounds too
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
12:22 pm
That charge Collins took on Dwight last night was a pure brilliant vet move. ZaZa would have taken a charge there but would’ve been called for a foul somehow. Collins has that veteran blood.
We really match up well with ORL. ZaZa always annoys Dwight and we have a fresh set of bigs to throw at them. If we can contain their shooters, we could beat them in a series. My only fear is Jameer who can get on fire at times
START THE VETERAN COLLINS!!!!
Sautee
December 21st, 2010
12:26 pm
Jeje,
about this: “Putting Horford against a Tyson Chandler or Bynum is not a good idea.”
wordsmithtom
December 21st, 2010
12:27 pm
Yahoo has story saying Anthony going to Nets in a multi team trade. They say Devin Harris going somewhere…. Could anyone see Hawks giving JC1 for Harris and running Teague as the backup 2?
yodaddy
December 21st, 2010
12:29 pm
@wordsmithtom
I’m good with Bibby…he can actually shoot
yodaddy
December 21st, 2010
12:32 pm
I say that because we don’t run pick and roll offense here…so it is essential that the PG be able to shoot.
Devin Harris looks good on paper and may actually work…but if we give JC1…what will we do with Bibby? Where’s the perimeter shooting threat?
Sautee
December 21st, 2010
12:32 pm
Jeje,
about this: “Putting Horford against a Tyson Chandler or Bynum is not a good idea.”
Jeje, do you realize that when we played Dallas, Horford went for 20 pts and 20 rebounds against Chandler? And Tyson had like 8 and 5?
Anybody he can go for 20 and 20 against, I’ll take that matchup.
The Truth
December 21st, 2010
12:37 pm
I would love to see what this Hawks team looks like with:
A healthy JJ back in form
A healthy Jamal back in form with a positive outlook about his future
Josh Smith giving up his desire to play point forward
Bibby speeding up the offense which helps JJ finds his rhythms
Rejuvenated Marvin off the bench with more consistent offense
Teague discovering a jump shot full time
More Damien defense along with his past glory offense
More minutes for Etan for playoff preparation
LD finally finding the keys to closing out games
Mo Evan retiring early
wordsmithtom
December 21st, 2010
12:41 pm
yodaddy, Bibbs is a declining force. Yes, he can still shoot, but he defends like a sieve holds water. He’s a backup 1 just waiting for someone to take his spot. Harris could take it. Of course, this would mean having to continue using MW with second unit to give outside shooting, as you note.
JC1 for the remainder of season, vs more facilitation. JC1 is a scorer, but is weak as a backup 1 and Teague just isn’t showing me what it takes.
Sure, status quo gets us into 1st round and maybe a couple wins in 2nd….but we need more to be able to compete. I’d prefer another big that can PLAY, but nobody gives up a BIG for the likes of JC1.
terrell
December 21st, 2010
12:46 pm
LD wont stick to this lineup. Please. Duck will be right back in the starting lineup. Hope I’m wrong, but I’ve seen this picture before.
terrell
December 21st, 2010
12:50 pm
Horford didnt pick up his 1st foul till the 4th qtr playiong the 4. Wow! Doesnt take a brain surgeon to realize that going big is in the TEAMS best interest. And Marvin likes coming off the bench. Guarantee you he wont complain. Hell, he better not complain. Also makes the bench deeper. Dont let us down LD. Make teams adjust to us. Not the other way around.
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
1:04 pm
If we really want to make a run at Dwight in 2012, we need to at least have made the ECF and won a few games.
He and Smoove are as good buds in the NBA as you’ll see, so that helps. LBJ went to an okay Miami team, so I am sure Dwight would come here.
Jamal is expiring and Bibby expires after next season, so we could work out a trade.
Would you all rather have Smoove/Horf/Dwight or Joe/HorfDwight?
O'Brien
December 21st, 2010
1:06 pm
I like the idea of Marvin coming off the bench. However, for that to happen, Hawks need a legit starting center.
Collins plays well in limited minutes, but if he got more PT, his short comings would be magnified. And ZaZa is too soft.
If we had money this off-season, we could go after a Tyson Chandler, or Pryzbilla. But with our financial limitations, we’re stuck with who we have, unless there is a trade.
wordsmithtom,
Imagine if the Nets had gotten the #1 pick (John Wall). If they did, they would trade Devin Harris (I would have offered Bibby and JC1 for Harris and another player).
Maybe LeBron goes there to play with John Wall, and he could have convinced another player to come there. But it was not to be.
I dont see Rick making any moves. IMO, we will have the same team next year, except JC1 might be replaced by JC2 off the bench.
O'Brien
December 21st, 2010
1:07 pm
And I’m glad to see LD finally talking about sending Sy to the D-League. I’m not sure why its taking so long for them to make up their minds about sending him down.
wordsmithtom
December 21st, 2010
1:09 pm
JeJe, I’m thinking Joe/Smoove/Dwight myself. We obviously can’t afford to keep one of the 3 if we go after Dwight, and yes, everybody says he’ll go to a big market, but if he thinks he can win with Josh and Co. he might consider the ATL. Just ruminating.
Atlanta Fawkers
December 21st, 2010
1:20 pm
Orlando is not the team they were last season.
Atlanta is.
FAIL!!!
SteveW
December 21st, 2010
1:31 pm
Chad – Sund would not have done it if ASG had not have wanted him to re-sign JJ. JJ is definitely not a max money player. However, with the spending enviroment this off season, and with cap restrictions, JJ would have gotten max money somewhere, and we had no recourse to sign anyone else except with our mid-level exception.
JJ Reddick signed for 7.75 m per year this off season. The mid-level was 5.6m. We couldn’t have signed John Salmone, Reddick, or any halfway decent to replace JJ. That’s why we re-signed him. Best option we had, unless we wanted total rebuilding mode, sign and trade him for a couple of 1st etc. like the Cavs and Raptors did for LeBron and Bosh. See where there at?
SteveW
December 21st, 2010
1:35 pm
The Magic are all in. They win it all this season, or they’re toast. No way they can re-sign J Richardson under the new CBA coming out. Turkoglo – 31 – declining – signed for 4 more years at 10+m per year. Arenas, 29 – bad knee – declining – signed for 3 more years (after this) at 20 mil. per year. They better win it all this year, and they might. I still say, once they get it figured out, you can’t have Arenas, J Richardson, Jameer, and Dwight on the court and not do well.
And they are looking a little to the future. Earl Clark and Orton may be good in a couple of years. And Ryan Anderson has potential.
SteveW
December 21st, 2010
1:37 pm
O’Brien – I think it was his health. I wish Sy was in Le Havre, so we had 1 more roster spot left for a move. That’s been a big waste to this point, bringing him over.
SteveW
December 21st, 2010
1:39 pm
I think JJ would have to go to get Dwight. No way the Hawks are trading Al, becoming the face of the franchise. He’s ASG’s type of player. Great character, hard worker etc. Josh would be the only reason Dwight would come here. So JJ would have to go.
The Truth
December 21st, 2010
1:54 pm
The big lineup success with Collins is a full indictment against Sund who argued repeatedly that he likes his core starting Horford at center and Marvin at sf. Collins wide-body clogging-up the lanes has intangibles benefits that are not showing up in his stats sheet. While Horford gets his double-double at the center position, his offense is at another level at the PF position. The man is near money out on the perimeter. Imagine if we had an athletic version of Jason Collins in the starting lineup with Sund having the wherewithal to make it happen. With the Hawks offense potential, this team would be scary.
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:09 pm
I think Sund wanted to keep Joe. He kept saying how Joe was a top 5 SG, how Smoove is a top 10 PF, Horf is a top 10 Center blah blah blah. He said if a SG is a top player like that, you have to dish him the money.
START COLLINS
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:12 pm
MC make up some trade rumors to keep this blog excited. List the first 5 names that come to your mind!
STRETCH
December 21st, 2010
2:14 pm
“They’ve been together for six years. We haven’t been together for six hours.”
- Magic coach Stan Van Gundy, on the different in comfort level between his team and the Hawks before Monday night’s game.
That pretty much sums it all up.
The Truth
December 21st, 2010
2:16 pm
BTW, now that we know what we know, if Sund had the balls to acquire Shaq, the Hawks would have had an unfair advantage on every team in the eastern conference. The idea the HF might have been a locker-room cancer was over-blown. Boston is a lock for the ECF assuming no major injuries.
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:16 pm
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2010/12/21/hang-time-podcast-episode-37/
Great info on the Hawks from MC. I think he comes in after the 15 minute mark or so (maybe 17)
Says that our guards all play 1 role and can’t run an offense+defend.
Jamal+Josh = most movable pieces
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:17 pm
Sekou said he’s very surprised Hawks have not made moves
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:20 pm
Monta Ellis had 44 points last night
Can we PLEASE try get him? Trade Bibby + Marvin or Bibby + Jamal and get a package of players
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:22 pm
Does Rick Sund even attend the games?
Where the hell is this guy right now?
JeJe
December 21st, 2010
2:37 pm
Lol the Orlando writer sounded nervous as hell about these trades