Atlanta Hawks: Celtics 102, Hawks 90
Boston–Here’s the thing: The results don’t show context. They don’t note injuries or bad luck or nice efforts or anything like that. They only show Ws and Ls and for the Hawks they show that they can’t beat the better teams on their schedule.
- You know the list: Phoenix, Orlando, Utah, Dallas, Miami, San Antonio and now Boston. “We have got to have these games,” Marvin said. “It’s not really early in the season anymore. We’ve got to do a better job closing these games out.”
- The truth is the Hawks went to Boston and had a chance to win without J.J. and Jamal. They’ve never been completely healthy for any of their games against the best teams.
- “What you have got to understand is we don’t have all our weapons,” Smoove said. I don’t think you can really measure where we are at as a team like those teams that you are naming unless we have all our horses running.”
- I know that sounds like too much excuse making for fans, and I get that. But you know what? Smoove makes a fair point.
- Yet it’s also true is that the Celtics turned them back without Rondo and three centers: Shaq, J. O’Neal and Perkins. Guard Delonte West was out, too, and Von Wafer lasted two minutes before leaving the game.
- The Celtics are deeper and better, which might be expected given their payroll and pedigree but, again, the standings don’t care about stuff like that.
- “They are an experienced team,” Al said. “They just know how to play.”
- “They made plays and they tried to exploit our mismatches all night,” Marvin said. “They were tough.”
- As long as Rick Sund sticks with the “core” philosophy, the Hawks are going to have to figure it out. Their challenge is to see if through experience, and despite their shortcomings, they can reach that level. Then maybe they win tight games against good opponents and others will be talking about how they know how to play and how they exploit mismatches.
- “I am going to maintain my patience,” L.D. said. “The encouraging thing is we can look at a game against Miami on the road, San Antonio on the road, even Orlando the first time on the road, and now here we are against Boston on the road we are right there in the fourth quarter. We just can’t get over the hump. I am glad that we are right there but we’ve got to mentally learn how to get over the hump.”
- Once again, you can point to a few missed chances cost the Hawks at winning time.
- The Hawks trailed 77-75. Ray Allen steals the ball from Josh Powell, but Marvin hustles back to block Allen’s shot and start a Hawks fastbreak. But then Teague throws the ball away and, on Boston’s next possession, no one blocks out Glen Davis and he puts back a miss.
- On Atlanta’s next possession, Nate Robinson ties up Teague and forces a jump ball. The Celtics controlled the tip, and then Robinson set up Pierce for a 3. After Marvin misses, Erden somehow finds himself free for a baby hook in the lane that made it 84-75.
- Teague had three of Atlanta’s six fourth-quarter turnovers, marring what was otherwise a standout effort. Maybe it will mean his return to the rotation, as long as L.D. is willing to live with his mistakes.
- “He came out that first half, really really aggressive on the floor,” Drew said. “That’s what he has to do every time he steps on the floor. That’s what I am looking for. I need that. He’s the only guy that has that speed and has that type quickness that can change the flow and tempo of the game. He did a great job again.”
- Teague’s teammates were going wild as he was getting steals and dunks.
- “Coaches told us to go out there and push the ball and be aggressive and play. Turnovers are going to happen but you just have to keep playing,” he said. “I just wanted to make an impact on the game. Me and Jordan at the beginning of the game, we had to make an impact, and hopefully get some stops on the defensive end and make some plays out there.”
- Josh was out of sorts offensively. He didn’t have any touch around the rim. “I was in it on the defensive end, I just couldn’t help out offensively,” he said. “Good thing about it I have a chance to redeem myself tomorrow against Charlotte. I just can’t stop believing in myself. I think I got down on myself too early in the game because things weren’t falling.”
- Josh had just two points in the first game against the C’s. This time he couldn’t finish in the post against Pierce.
- “He didn’t have that explosiveness like he normally has around the basket,” Drew said. “That was very noticeable early in the game. I didn’t think we would totally dominate the matchup with Pierce, but I thought we would have a much larger advantage against Pierce with him using his size and strength and experience. He missed some easy shots. He rushed a few shots. He didn’t seem like he had that energy.
- Al picked up his second foul with 4:25 left in the first quarter. He stayed on the bench the rest of the half and finished with eight points, 4 of 7 shooting, seven rebounds, 26 minutes and three fouls.
- “That’s happened to him before and he has come back and bounced back in the second half,” L.D. said. “But he just never got into an Al Horford rhythm. But again, there are going be games where there are nights like this.”
- Al had ice packs on both hands after the game. “I’m not going to make excuses about anything,” he said. “I hurt it against Indiana. My shooting has been like this for a couple games. It is really swollen so I have to make sure I ice it to keep it down. But it’s nothing serious.”
- JC2 passed up an open shot early, the first indication that the rookie was off. He looked rushed while committing three unforced turnovers. “I hadn’t played since the last few minutes against Toronto,” he said. “I just wanted to get back in the flow but my timing was off. It was little mistakes I shouldn’t make regardless if you don’t play or not. That’s all on me. “
- The Hawks didn’t let Robinson get on a roll this time (despite his 41 minutes) but Pierce hurt them as the point forward. “You could see [Robinson] was just out of rhythm with the ball,” Doc Rivers said. He was struggling with the ball and with his passing. So we just made Paul the point guard and it worked out.”
- Powell played 4:19 of the fourth quarter and had all zeros across his stat line except for a turnover. Zaza had the same minutes in the final period and had a rebound and a steal.
- Wilkins showed some life offensively while scoring scoring 10 points. He got four free-throw attempts through some crafty plays. He’s helping the Hawks.
- At one point in the first half, the Celtics dropped off Mo to let him shoot a 3-pointer, and he looked like he didn’t want to do it. He finally halfheartedly chucked up a brick. It looks like his confidence is sagging.
Michael Cunningham
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257 comments Add your comment
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
2:59 pm
@ Sautee, exactly. I’d rather have Al become a poor man’s Ewing, or Alonzo than a poor man’s Dirk.
More and more I’m starting to think maybe the best person for this job is Mike Fratello. (as would’ve been the case with Casey, or Jackson) To hire anyone besides Avery or Fratello is saying every night will be a new experiment, because the coach has never been there. And how can you continue to try and improve to a new level, if its all an experiment.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
2:59 pm
How many boards will Wallace take down tonight? Assuming he plays?
Najeh Davenpoop
December 17th, 2010
3:02 pm
“That’s Larry Drew.
Woody II”
Just the fact that he has gotten this team to share the ball after five years of iso-Joe and that he has squeezed something useful out of lifelong scrubs Collins and Powell makes him better than Woody. Most of the complaining about him seems to be centered around his substitution patterns; I’m willing to give him a little longer than 20 games to figure out how to best use his personnel on this mismatched, unbalanced roster.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:02 pm
Joe Johnson minus LD coaching + Josh,Al and Marvin on the floor in the 4th qrtr at the sametime vs. teams above .500= fail 80% plus of the time…..Just sad………….
Section 303
December 17th, 2010
3:08 pm
Guys, I’m out. Head down to Philips in a few hours. Hitting Taco Mac, then off to the game. Hope some of you guys are going to show. I’m thinking this game will be a loss. I just have a bad feeling.
Ramon, you know I value your insight. I just do not agree on Josh Smith last night. I thought he was awful.
See you guys at Philips tonight, right?
Section 303
December 17th, 2010
3:08 pm
slimjr, I do not understand anything you just wrote.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:11 pm
Tonight is a key game to test our resolve. Are we growing out of our tendency to go into a 6-8 game funk or can we handle our business against an obviously inferior opponent.
northcyde
December 17th, 2010
3:13 pm
I’m not a Marvin supporter nor basher. But I think it’s complete BS for people to still be talking about what he supposedly didn’t do last night, when Horford and Smith combined couldn’t get 10 pts and 10 rebs last night.
If and when Marvin doesn’t show up again, go right ahead and bash the dude. But don’t be trying to find any way possible to praise Horford and Smith for that pathetic performance last night.
In 2 games vs the Celtics this year, Josh Smith is averaging 1.5 pts and 3.5 rebounds . with him being 0 – 11 FG. And people don’t see that as a problem?
People keep talking about competing in the 2nd round. Well . . who do folks think we’ll be facing in Round 2?
If we can’t win the division, and can’t finish 2nd, then the best seed we can get is a 5 seed. Which means that even if we win the 1st round matchup, we’re playing Boston in Round 2.
So don’t be dissing Marvin for last night’s effort. That’s twice now that both Smith and Horford have gotten punked the Celtics.
Those two guys are our stars. They’re not role players. If they don’t start playing like badazzes vs the Celtics, this will continue to happen to them and us.
Samuel
December 17th, 2010
3:15 pm
Ramon,
In case you haven’t noticed, Avery Johnson is in next to last place with about the same talent level as the Hawks.
Najeh Davenpoop
December 17th, 2010
3:15 pm
“tonight i gurantee that if he get plays ran for him he will eat Wallace alive”
More than half the players in the league can drop 20 a game if they are given enough priority within an offense. If you run every play for Zaza, even he might drop 20. A much smaller percentage of NBA players can drop 20 efficiently without hurting their team. Marvin (and for that matter Smoove too, probably) does not fall into that category. The difference is that if every play was run for Smoove, he would use more than half of those to find easy looks for his teammates, while Marvin would spend all of those tripping over his own shoelaces.
In the not too distant past, the Hawks have had several players — Shareef, Big Dog, Antoine Walker — who all fell into the category of inefficient players who scored a lot of points thanks to being featured, and yet didn’t win games for this team. And all of them were head and shoulders better than Marvin.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:18 pm
Sorry bout that Section 303 got distracted..
Without Joe Johnson fully healthy out there on the floor. Hawks fail against above .500 winning teams 80% of the time with Josh, AL, and Marvin on the floor in the 4th quarter(crunch time).. Time to plug the plug on the 3 stooges..
Najeh Davenpoop
December 17th, 2010
3:18 pm
“I’m not a Marvin supporter nor basher. But I think it’s complete BS for people to still be talking about what he supposedly didn’t do last night”
I don’t think the topic of discussion would be centered on Marvin’s shortcomings if his grandma wasn’t here trying to convince everyone that he is the next Nique.
Samuel
December 17th, 2010
3:21 pm
Ramon,
Mike Fratello’s career winning percentage is .547 (reg season) and .323 (playoffs). I don’t understand the facination.
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
3:22 pm
Samuel, are you on drugs? How do you say Avery is in next to last place with the same talent as the Hawks? The Hawks have gone to the playoffs the last 3 seasons. The New Jersey Nets are coming off a season where they had one of the three worst records in the entire league (I think they had the worst). The Hawks have three all stars on the team, and the 6th man of the year. Only thing the Nets have is Lopez. Del Harris really isn’t that much better than Bibby now.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:22 pm
Amen Najeh.
northcyde
December 17th, 2010
3:23 pm
@ Najeh . . one thing about ISO-Joe though . . is that you knew who was going to have the ball, and whose job it was to make a play. And when he passed the ball, the guy he passes it to would be wide open for an open jumper.
With Drew’s offense, there is no designated “go to guy”. Some of you like that. But it tends to lead to an increased amount of turnovers due to non-ball handlers trying to make plays for others.
So until the team takes care of the ball better, look for Drew to go right back to ISO-Joe to close out games when a game is tight.
Drew’s offense works . . but we can’t have anybody and everybody handling the ball at the end of games.
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
3:24 pm
Samuel, Fratello was going against the Celtics and the Pistons in their best days (both teams who would utterly destroy ANY of the teams in the league now).
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:26 pm
Anybody who watched Fratello’s Hawks in the late 80’s would try to defend his coaching. We were young, athletic, up-an-coming, but like today’s Hawks we fell short b/c our roster had young guns and not HOF veterans.
Same then as now. Avery is not the answer. I can’t believe he and Sam Mitchell can’t get the Nets more fired up than they are. They do have some awesome talent on their roster.
Coaching isn’t the answer/problem – the players are in how often they give 100% effort for 48 minutes according to the coaches game plan.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:27 pm
Over past 6.2 season the Hawks guard play especially on offensive have covered a multitude of offensive faults concerning the “3 stooges”(JOSH,AL,AND MARVIN). But with the goto guy down, he can’t cover for them, alas they are being expose for who they really are not very good. Try 8th or 9th seed? Maybe? Hurry back JJ…! Look at how they fail in 4th quarters time and again against the elites. They cant hide anymore.. Thats why they stink it up so bad in the playoffs. Weakness are exposed!!! WE WONT EVEN TALK ABOUT THEIR CLASSIC DEFENSIVE LAPSES IN CRITICAL SITUATIONS….
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:27 pm
Fratello lost to the 2-3 top teams in the East then, just as we lose to them now? How is all of this news Hawks fans?
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:29 pm
meant time to “pull the plug on the “3 stooges”
Samuel
December 17th, 2010
3:35 pm
Ramon,
That’s easy to say since we will never know. They were the elite of their time. The Lakers, Celtics and Spurs are of ours. I doubt they would destroy either of these teams.
JoJo the Godfather
December 17th, 2010
3:35 pm
slimjr…two of the three stooges have improved their games every year they’ve been in the league…why pull the plug on two guys that have yet to max out their abilities?
northcyde
December 17th, 2010
3:38 pm
The focus is ALWAYS on Marvin.
Just because his “grandma” (lol) is here hyping him up, don’t act like that guy doesn’t stay under nuclear attack on a 24 hour basis.
Sautee
December 17th, 2010
3:42 pm
Samuel,
about this: “In case you haven’t noticed, Avery Johnson is in next to last place with about the same talent level as the Hawks.”
Are you saying LD has done a better job than Avery?
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:45 pm
How much would Josh whine if he had to deal with the hand checking and physical D of days gone by? Face it, teams today are soft. I’d take the C’s, Lakers and Pistons of old over today. We may have more flashy talent these days, but those teams played hard nosed, real intense basketball. Ask Jordan when he’d rather play? Think of what he’d do w/o the Jordan Rules?
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:47 pm
@JoJo the Godfather
Because I suspect they have peaked last year and won 53 games in spite now we know Joe J not being fully healthy..Billy Knight Jr(RICK SUND), if he had backbone would start shopping the “3 stooges” in their prime which is now!!! Promise it wont get any better with these busters…
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
3:47 pm
Samuel, sorry, but if any of those teams played the leagues best today, with the rules of today, those teams would score over 120 easily. The teams in the league now, aren’t as deep as they used to be. And the defense now is a lot worse than what it use to be.
Fundamentals, how many times did the Phil Jackson Lakers not give 100% of energy every night when Shaq and Kobe were younger? Samaki Walker wouldn’t even start on this Hawks team. Teams that are constantly picking at the bottom of the draft, continue to have players come in and contribute. That had nothing to do with adjustments and coaching? So what was the difference between the Lakers before Phil Jackson came, and when Rambis was the coach? Or what was the difference between Van Gundy coaching the Heat and Pat Riley? You can have the best weapons in the league. But if you don’t have the right general to lead it all, it won’t mean much.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:48 pm
The Nets have the talent, but not the will to win. The coaches haven’t been able to change the culture. Thus they’ve failed. LD came into a good situation. All things aren’t equal to make those claims.
Rod from College Park
December 17th, 2010
3:50 pm
northcyde,
“I’m not a Marvin supporter nor basher. But I think it’s complete BS for people to still be talking about what he supposedly didn’t do last night”
Who cares what you think. If you can list some information that was posted about Marvin’s shortcomings last night that are not true then have at it. He had a great offensive game, his defensive was nothing to write home about. He is subject to be criticized when he has a good game just like Joe, Josh, Bibby, and Horford do when they have great games. Sometimes I think you think that everything you post is the gospel. You need to get over yourself. Most of the regular posters here all make valid points. All you Marvin jock sniffers need to get real. The guy had a great game last night offensively. Whoopdyfreaking doo. If he can have one great game, and no one can still find fault in his game, then we should never say anything bad about Horford, Josh and Joe, because they have great games the majority of the time. Get over yourself.
JeJe
December 17th, 2010
3:50 pm
Hawks will win tonight. We usually win games I go to, plus the only other time I’ve seen us play CHA, we won
Hawks win – don’t worry
LET DAMIEN PLAY
JeJe
December 17th, 2010
3:52 pm
*times
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
3:53 pm
Fundementals, I actually think Josh would’ve been better playing in an era like that. Because he would’ve came in the league on a team full of veterans (before the expansions) and would’ve gotten used to that in training camp. Listen to Barkley and others talk about their rookie seasons in the league. Back then just about every team had an all star caliber player (even the lottery teams) and grizzled veterans.
JoJo the Godfather
December 17th, 2010
3:53 pm
Sautee…My opinion is that LD has done a better job with the Hawks than Avery has with the Nets…Avery went in with no pressure, had free agents & draft picks added to his team, and has not changed that team’s identity at all…LD was, and still is, highly scrutinized by the media and fans alike, and yet he’s still managed to keep the Hawks in the playoff picture, implement new schemes on both sides of the ball, and appears to have the buy-in of all his players.
JeJe
December 17th, 2010
3:54 pm
Amen, Rod from CP
It does seem like Northcyde thinks his posts are the Gospel.
Marvin disappeared in that 2nd qtr. I don’t understand why we didn’t go back to posting him up on Ray in the 3rd when the C’s were red hot.
I mean, he IMMEDIATELY posted Ray up twice when the game started. This is also LD’s fault.
And if we are LOSING games, then what good is this BS 2 foul rule? It’d be another thing if we were winning and using the 2 foul rule, but we have been LOSING and using it.
STOP USING THIS BS 2 FOUL RULE. NO PLAYER EVER FOULS OUT ON THIS TEAM
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
3:54 pm
Ramon – I can see that, but a real test would be shipping Phil to Atlanta, Philly, New Jersey, Dallas, ect to see if they were the difference.
I think it had alot to do with the players coming together and playing hard. Who can’t win with Kobe & Shaq in their prime? How bout Jordan & Pippen? Wade/Shaq? That’s just not fair. Send Riley, Doc or Jackson to Atlanta in their prime of coaching & we’d have the same headaches. It ain’t all on LD.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
3:56 pm
@JeJe
Dude good luck down there tonight.Stay safe! I will have remote in hand cause that Hawks game will have me switching to view the NEW YORK KNICKS and MIAMI game tonight in HIGH DEF on the BIG FLAT SCREEN!!!! YEAHA,,,,
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
3:59 pm
Fundamentals, who can’t win with them guys in their prime? Doug Collins, S. Van Gundy, Flip Saunders couldn’t win with KG and an All Star cast in Minnesota (or Detroit). Also who was the coach of the Lakers before Riley? He didn’t win with the same roster (except for Worthy). Doc won without much talent in Orlando before Boston, and also did goto the playoffs in Boston before KG came. Remember Phil coached 2 seasons with just Kobe and no one else (unless you count Smush Parker and Kwame as all stars) and went to the playoffs both seasons in a hard western conference.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
4:00 pm
Ramon,
My wife points that out every year. Josh is so far behind in terms of maturity b/c he’s been babied at the prep level and has been a “star” in Atlanta since coming in. He’s never really had real veteran leadership to mold him and push him. He thinks he’s an All Star, but honestly hasn’t got a clue what that means. Now with fan voting, what does it really mean? NOTHING! What matters is your performance in the playoffs, now let’s give Marvin’s Grandma a few minutes to bash Joe Johnson.
My point is those guys were tougher, meaner and thus more professional to stay alive. Todays rules make it easier, things are less physical and the game has changed to promote highlights instead of winning basketball.
JoJo the Godfather
December 17th, 2010
4:00 pm
@slimjr
you’re saying you think the team has peaked at 53 wins last season…i disagree, but that’s a reasonable thought and i can’t fault anyone for their opinion…i thought you were saying that Josh & Al had peaked…to me, that’s 3 to 5 years from happening…when these young men reach 27-29 years old, they’ll be in their prime (assuming they stay healthy).
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
4:01 pm
Candice Parker would eat Marvins lunch and dinner!!!
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
4:03 pm
The Bulls would’ve won without a coach – give me a break.
Lakers – almost the same for me again.
Flip – had no one but KG in MN and caught Detroit in severe decline.
Kobe is well, Kobe, not Joe Johnson
Doc was almost fired before the big 3 saved his coaching career.
Orlando has been just as good as Doc’s teams since Van Gundy arrived there.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
4:04 pm
27-29,25-26. It dont matter with the 3 stooges. Shop them now.While we still have fighting chance..Yes the team peaked at 53 wins.its down hill from there….
RICK SUND=BILLY KNIGHT Jr
SteveW
December 17th, 2010
4:05 pm
I say start ZaZa
Al
Marvin
Wilkens
Bibby
Bring Josh and Jeff off the bench – you talk about energy! And I think it wakes ZaZa up, and he becomes the man again like we need him to be.
Josh would win 3 consecutive SMOY IMHO.
Fundamentals
December 17th, 2010
4:07 pm
Josh doesn’t have the character of Jamal to put his ego aside.
I think ZaZa’s days of being the man dissappeared with the head butt.
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
4:07 pm
Fundementals, really if you look at it, in the last three seasons, Josh has played better than anyone on the team in the playoffs (including Joe and Al). So if its judged by the playoffs, wouldn’t Josh’s numbers in the playoffs testify that he’s more of what’s right with the team than what’s wrong?
Sund and Woody would just try to add veterans and that’s it. But the Hawks don’t need veterans, they need CHAMPIONS. Maggette is a veteran, and I wouldn’t want to look at him as a leader.
Rod from College Park
December 17th, 2010
4:08 pm
“The focus is ALWAYS on Marvin.
Just because his “grandma” (lol) is here hyping him up, don’t act like that guy doesn’t stay under nuclear attack on a 24 hour basis.”
As is should be. He is the only guy on our team that is consistently inconsistent. Who else should stay under attack? Who else shows up 2 out of every 10 games? Was Marvin the reason we beat the Celtics 4 times last year? Marvin made more money that Horford last year so should we bash Horford for averaging 14.6ppg, and 9rpg in 35 min in the playoffs. Should we bash Josh for averaging 14.1 ppg and 9 rpg in the playoffs? Or should we bash a guy making 7 to 8 mill per, who was a number 2 draft pick, who was expected to step up that year, who averaged 8.4ppg and 5.7 rpg in 31 mpg. Sorry for us being so biased and calling out the worst guy night in and night out. Maybe you need the blog to go back to 3 years ago when everybody was bashing Josh, and praising Marvin except me.
Ramon
December 17th, 2010
4:09 pm
Fundementals, Doc didn’t have D12, Lewis, Carter, or Nelson, remember. Anyone would’ve won with Chicago? At the time, MJ was just a ball hog who couldn’t be lead according to the media.
slimjr
December 17th, 2010
4:12 pm
Josh major hurdle to improving his game and becoming notice around the league as a perennial all star is his attitude. I preach that to my daughter all the time. Your attitude will determine your altitude. That said, this guy needs an ounce of humility!!! He is no way as good as he thinks he is! That’s a fact!!
JeJe
December 17th, 2010
4:14 pm
Ha slimjr I regret missing my boy Amar’e’s big game tonight, but it’s time to see the Hawks win. I will be sure to be yelling at Marvin if he is asleep again. Hope Damien gets major mins tonight