Atlanta Hawks: Noah out, Magic slumping . . . or why it’s good to be in the East
Shockingly, that hair was not the worst news for Joakim Noah tonight. (AP photo)
Boston–Links from around the Association . . .
When Al signed a contract extension with the Hawks that was nearly identical to the one signed by his Florida teammate and friend Joakim Noah, I figured that was about right.
They are comparable players with nearly identical win shares per 48 minutes. Al is the superior offensive player. Noah (probably) is a better post defender, though Al’s defensive versatility can’t be discounted. The areas in which I thought Al had the advantage over Noah were age (he’s more than a full year younger) and durability.
Noah missed 18 games last season with plantar fasciitis in his left foot, which has to be a concern for a big man. Now comes word that he will have thumb surgery and miss up to 10 weeks:
“It sucks,” Noah said. “It’s not what I want. But I have to get back to playing at a high level. I’m tired of taking anti-inflammatory (pills) every time I play. I’m tired of not dribbling with my right hand.
Chicago Shopping: Your home for personalized holiday shopping deals >>“I’m going to miss playing. It’s frustrating because I feel we have a chance to be really, really good. But I know in the long run, this is what needs to be done.”
Even with the bum thumb, Noah went for 11 points, 11 rebounds and two blocks in Chicago’s victory over Toronto. I watched the game alongside Celtics-Knicks (good one, though shocking to see C’s play no D in fourth quarter)) at the sports bar in my hotel and Noah looked pretty good, his ridiculous ‘do (even by his standards) notwithstanding.
The Bulls don’t have much in the way of backups to Noah, unless Omar Asik or Kurt Thomas excite you. Derrick Rose also has been hurting.
Obviously it’s good for the Hawks if the Bulls cool off without Noah, so now we will see if Chicago can hold it down the way the Hawks (so far) have managed to do without J.J.
Magic slumping, not sick
In another item from the “It’s good to be in the East” department . . . .
The Magic are teetering. That’s of course assuming they don’t all still have the flu and aren’t just playing worse than their opponents who are playing bad. Those were the excuses offered by the Magic after Atlanta’s W in their building last week.
But after the Magic loss at Denver Tuesday to end their West road trip at 1-3, Stan Van Gundy didn’t want to hear any of that:
“(It was) not mismatches, not fatigue,” a fuming Van Gundy said. “It was a lack of effort, lack of toughness (and a) lack of any desire to defend anybody … We’re finding every b.s. excuse in the book right now. That’s what we’re doing.” . . .
“It was the same in every game of the trip, even the Clipper game,” Van Gundy said. “We just had a big enough lead at the half to survive. Our offense died in the second half of every one, and we play no defense. We play no defense, whatsoever.
“On this trip we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league. If that doesn’t change, we will be a very bad basketball team.”
(Can’t lie, seeing “a fuming Van Gundy” made me wistful for the days when I could regularly enjoy some good Stan rants.)
Notably, at the Orlando Sentinel’s Magic blog “flu” or “ugly basketball” were not among the choices for a poll asking readers to ID the Magic’s biggest problem. At last look, “Lack of a go-to player,” “Lack of defensive intensity,” and “Lack of effort” were getting blown out by “All of the above.”
Al’s offense
After Atlanta’s L at Detroit Jason Walker at Peachtree Hoops offered the following (thoughtful) critique of Horford’s offense:
I’ve lauded Al Horford time and time again, so allow me to nit pick regarding his performance tonight. Many times Horford holds the ball too long at the top of the key. I know he’s looking to pass because the play calls for it, but there are times when nobody is open and his defender is nowhere in sight that he has to go to the basket with the ball. He defers way too often when he doesn’t have to and sometimes it puts the Hawks in a position where there is no time left (because we initiate the play with 10-12 seconds left) and all that can be done is a long, contested, jump shot.
Walker says Al needs to take the ball to the basket (which he notably did just the other day at San Antonio with great success). I’d add that Al also too often passes up that jumper in those situations. With the way he’s shooting from that range, it’s not like he’s going find many better options passing it around.
Jamal, square peg
Walker also weighed in on what will probably be a continuing theme, the dilemma Jamal faces when asked to run the team:
Crawford takes way too long to get the team going in an offensive set, sometimes defaulting to breaking down his man off the dribble to create some offense for himself. Last night in Detroit, there were times when the shot clock got to 10 and the ball was still in Crawford’s hands without a single pass.
Crawford is misused in this capacity, he needs the freedom to spot up, come off picks, and score the basketball. Getting guys in the right position and cranking up an offense is not his forte. Getting guys to foul him while knocking down a three is.
Sometimes you can just see Jamal yearning to bust out like he did in his days with Woody. It’s what he does best, after all, and it’s not that he isn’t willing to set guys up, it’s just that it goes against his instincts.
Jamal, by the way, is iffy to play against the Celtics due to a sore back. Shaq apparently has ruled himself out for the game, so Doc will have to somehow get by with Big Baby, KG and surprisingly serviceable Turk rook Semih Erden in the power rotation.
Trade talk
ESPN.com CBA guru Larry Coon lists the players who can be traded starting today (which is different from saying they are in fact tradeable). J.J., Josh Powell, Etan and Twin make the list for the Hawks, though Collins can’t be traded without his consent under CBA rules.
So take a look at Coon’s list and dream up your own trade scenarios, blog people. I’ve noticed that 90 percent of the conversation on most NBA blogs is devoted to this pursuit, and that a higher percentage of those scenarios tend to be unrealistic. I know it’s fun, though.
–Michael Cunningham
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80 comments Add your comment
merbertmoover
December 15th, 2010
11:50 pm
1st!
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
12:01 am
TRADE MARVIN WILLIAMS ASAP! THE GUY OFF THE STREET IS MUCH BETTER IN JOSH POWELL.KICK ROCKS MARVIN….
Kevin Willis
December 16th, 2010
12:31 am
If the Pacers would do it i would package JJ and Marvin and Jeff Teague for
Hibbert, Grandger, Tj Ford and jeff foster
Kevin Willis
December 16th, 2010
12:41 am
Pg Ford/Bibby Bench pg Bibby/Ford
2g Granger 2g Evans/wilkens
Sf Josh Smith Sf Powell
Pf Horford Pf Foster
C Hibbert C Zaza/Collins
Kevin Willis
December 16th, 2010
12:43 am
ps I can still play better than Zaza, but his restrant is great
Clyde
December 16th, 2010
1:28 am
We need to get Turkoglu from Phoenix. He is out of favor with the coach. Marvin for Turkoglu
{MAC-Town Georgia 478}
December 16th, 2010
1:47 am
Whatever we do with trades and using different rotations….we need guys on the court that can keep guards in front of them, guys that can rebound, and guys that can guard without fouling people every other possession.
@SofaKingEvil
December 16th, 2010
3:46 am
Trade MARVIN WILLIAMS for SHANE BATTIER
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
4:20 am
Mike is Back said it best:
” Dang, Je Je …u even post in all caps on the Birds blogs dawg …is there any sanctity on the blogs these days…I may bad if I’m wrong…but the comments…sound eerily like the same BS…U pushing on the Hawks blog…dude clearly…u got some kind of extra stuff going on…or sumin. lo
December 15th, 2010
10:05 pm”
_____________________________________
Co-Sign Mike! All the caps gives me a headache, even when scrolling past it all.
It’s like Tyler Perry’s “Mr. Brown’s” wardrobe, He walks into the room screaming and yelling, just in case you didn’t see him coming from a mile away.
___________________________________
The good thing about the caps is it’s easier to scroll past the MOUTH that has absolutely nothing relevant to add to any conversation or basketball related topic.
How many times to have to say the exact same thing, repeatedly, before it stops?
Section 303
December 16th, 2010
6:00 am
And so it begins…..Michael, the last section of your post will set off a chain reaction of Trade Machine posts. I’ll check back in before the game tonight. I hate reading people talking about trades that will never happen.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
7:54 am
Mending Fences!
Too bad for Noah, I really like him a lot. Get Well Soon Joakim!
Can’t help but think, WWKD?
I bet Kobe would bag it up and rip off 50 points per game for 10 straight games, just to spite his thumb, and throw his sore knee in there, just so the thumb doesn’t get lonely.
That Kobe guy is pretty special. If Some players, ahem ahem .. Had an ounce of the Heart these two guys have? We would be settled at SF. I’m just sayin’.
doc
December 16th, 2010
8:17 am
dmb, thumbs are different than ring fingers which is kobe’s problem i think. it is what sets us apart isnt it? you as a doc knows the intricacies of its movement and the chance of permanent harm if it isnt taken care of. if it isnt he wont be taking in too many more boards as it is the power to grip, not a simple finger that can be taped in the case of kobe.
O'Brien
December 16th, 2010
8:45 am
From the previous blog;
Sautee,
Some of Al’s numbers against Detroit came when Ben Wallace was not in the game. And you can’t judge banging based on rebounding. Twin does not get a lot of rebounds, but he does a decent job slowing down the big guys.
And I’m not saying Al does not bang. I’m saying he does not do it as well as he used to. And I think that’s because he is more focused on excelling at PF instead of excelling at Center.
Ramon,
With Marvin’s size, I can’t help but wonder if LD should give him some minutes at backup PF, especially on defense.
For a SF, he is not a good ball handler (he fumbles or gets stripped a lot), he is not a good 3pt shooter (26% on the year), and he is not good at taking people off the dribble.
O'Brien
December 16th, 2010
8:48 am
It was not a bad pick,
The FACT is JJ is a 3 time all star, and made the all NBA (3rd) team last year. So regardless of how much he sucked in the playoffs last seaosn, he was going to get a MAX contract from somebody (ask the Knicks and Bulls).
And you want to talk about Marvin being the 5th and 6th option, which he is. But I always use Bruce Bowen as an example. Playing SF for the Spurs, he was the 5th or 6th option too.
His career scoring average is 6 ppg. But he played shut down defense (made the All NBA defensive teams numerous times), and he could always be counted on to knock down a big 3 from the corner.
Is that too much to ask from Marvin? Consistent lock down defense, and make the open shot. That’s all the Hawks need from him, and he can’t do it consistently.
Playing great defense and making open shots CONSISTENTLY have nothing to do with being the 5th or 6th option. It’s about desire, drive, and skill. Areas in which I think Marvin is lacking.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
8:52 am
What’s Up Doc?
I thought Kobe had a thumb injury too. Oh well and I thought he was Superman. LOL. I am guilty of only closely following the Home Teams. I don’t really follow the West Coast teams.
I tell you what, I’m impressed with all the Knee injuries that these players muddle through, Bynum and Roy come to mind from out West.
Westurd
December 16th, 2010
9:06 am
Trade Marvin for a real duck……
dap01
December 16th, 2010
9:20 am
Wow, a 3rd string NBA player receives the highest contract in the entire NBA?
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
9:41 am
dap01
Don’t confuse 3rd String with 3rd Best SG in the NBA. You prolly got DWade and Durantula slated ahead of Joe at that position. Also, supply and demand sets the pay scale in Market Places. That’s Marketing 101.
Having said that, that IS a lot of cheese. Multiply Joe’s salary 10 times and that’s what the owners are making off his services. You are worth what you can get in a free market. Joe is not paid to make baskets, he is paid to entertain in the NBA Market Place.
You and I will never see that type money in 10 lifetimes.
real hooper from hell
December 16th, 2010
9:47 am
im a big hawks fan and i been watchin them for a while
so with all the trade talk for what.you have to maximize the most out of the potential. so a line-up of
jc1
wilkens
jj
smoove
horford
your bench
bibby
moe
marvin
powell
zaza or collin depends on matchup
teague and jc2 will come into their own (dont really think that about teague he freezes up
so when joe gets back thats the line up
i know some say wilkens starting thats for a reason defensive(heard of george hill)and take slack off joe at the three
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
9:47 am
And from the last blog, I posted the top 20 salaries:
Kobe has by far the richest contract in the NBA by a land slide at 25M/Per.
Joe is 16th on that list. Rashard Lewis is a distant 2nd @ 20M/Per.
Just the Facts!
Fundamentals
December 16th, 2010
9:51 am
O’Brien at 8:48 – PERFECT
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
9:54 am
SEND MARVIN TO THE NBDL
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
9:57 am
I kinda hope Rondo plays tonight with bad ankle so he holds the team back and takes minutes away from Nate who owns us
Sautee
December 16th, 2010
10:05 am
O’Brien,
This is odd for me because I usually agree with you on most issues. I still wonder if you are not reading something that’s not there.
Tell you what, let’s both watch Al carefully for the next ten games, and then compare notes. I’m not saying you are wrong, just that it’s not my perception. If he IS changing his mental approach, we should be able to see it in ten games.
But I want to clarify this: Can you not bang equally as much as a 4 than a 5? Aren’t there “non-banger 4s” and “banger 4’s”? (R.Lewis and say, D. Blair)
So if that is true then why would Al’s focus on being a 4 necessarily make him bang less?
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
10:06 am
“Is that too much to ask from Marvin? Consistent lock down defense, and make the open shot. That’s all the Hawks need from him, and he can’t do it consistently. ”
We need Marvin to do more than that. Bowen didn’t make the type of money Marvin makes, and we are not as talented as San Antonio. We don’t have a Tony Parker PG who can take over games and get into the lane. We don’t have the greatest PF of all time on our team. We don’t have a crafty SG and a brilliant head coach.
We need lock-down defense from Marvin and 14 ppg and some damn HEART
Mike is back
December 16th, 2010
10:14 am
MC, Great Stuff…I don’t see how you trade a guy like JPowell…dude is a keeper!!!
I hear ya drmaryb…Show U Right!!
I think there are some teams we could work a deal with involving moving Marvin and Zaza…However, I wouldn’t include Teague…it’s too soon to give up on Teague…dude is basically starting out like JC2…I would hold on to Teague and JC2.
People are going to scuff at me…But wouldn’t mine have a guy like Baron Davis…if wasn’t too costly.
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
10:29 am
Co-sign O’Brien 8:48
I agree with do not necessarily need 12, 14, 16 ppg from Marvin every single game. As has been said, he is the 5th/6th scoring option.
We need from Marvin (a) consistent, strong defense (b) for him to be able to consistently step up when needed.
(b) includes stepping it up offensively during whole games when others are out/struggling, and (b) includes needing to be able to knock down the open 3 (or get the nice and 1 around the rim) when needed.
I am fine with Marvin averaging 8ppg as long as his big games are consistently coming when the Hawks need those big games the most (and conversely, that his (offensive) disappearing act occurs in games when everyone else is on).
The beauty about Bruce Bowen was that he consistently brought lock-down D, and even though he had a low ppg average, he was able to step up his offensive game when it was needed the most.
Rev in Tampa
December 16th, 2010
10:30 am
MC, you need to give us one of those voting polls with Marvin as a choice. Simply writing the same things over and over to ourselves on the blog about Marvin’s passivity is not satisfying our sense of dissastisfaction. We need some other outlet. We need to unify our voices with one loud shout of frustration.
Rev in Tampa
December 16th, 2010
10:34 am
Mike is back,
I saw your shout out to me on the last blog. I’ve checked up on the young lady that is playing at South Florida. It looks like she is contributing but they seem to be bringing her along slowly in her freshman year. If I remember correctly, she is the tallest player on the team. I hope to take my girls to see one of the games over the Christmas break if there are any home games.
Rev in Tampa
December 16th, 2010
10:37 am
@drmaryb – “Too bad for Noah, I really like him a lot. Get Well Soon Joakim!”
I disagree. This is war. I hope his plantar fasciitis returns.
I’m just kidding (sort of)
CTrim
December 16th, 2010
10:39 am
I believe JJ was signed to ensure we stayed relevant in the East and if it didn’t work we got something back in return. Somebody is going to want him – maybe for Nash if PHX wants to get younger or Bynum in LA if Phil doesn’t think he can hold up. Don’t think trading Marvin or Zaza is going to get us the quality player we need.
Mike is back
December 16th, 2010
10:51 am
Rev in Tampa, thanks for the follow-up…I talk to my daughter…she said they were bringing her alone slow. She is a Big girl…but in D-1 basketball…they grow on trees…I told her how long the girls were at Wake…and not to be surprise if she endures some struggles…I’m looking forward to catching one of their games.
lewis
December 16th, 2010
10:51 am
MC, IF YOU READ THIS,
noticed on the falcons blog these video-previews of the games that show clips of players talking about the games. It would be nice for us that don’t have fox sports / exposure to post-game reports to hear the players voices in non-quote form before big games occasionally (and i’m not talking about the incredibly rare video of the guy on hawks.com asking unimportant players stupid questions). Also it would be interesting to hear you actually ask the questions and have them answered in full instead of merely providing tidbits for answers.
Also, it would be awesome if there was a way for us to vote on interview questions to ask a different hawks player/coach every week. People submit questions, the board votes on which to ask, grilling of players ensues. All would rejoice.
Rufus1
December 16th, 2010
11:05 am
Only trade we need…
Teague and Mo for Will Bynum
Teague and a 1st and 2nd rd pick for Aaron Brooks
Wally Walker
December 16th, 2010
11:17 am
It is time to end the conversation and tenure of Marvin Williams in Atlanta. He is clearly a bust and there’s else that needs to be said. The Hawks need to make moves to improve the team, period! On the blogs, people are still concerned with the improvement of the # 3 position. This position and any trades concerning it will only produce a marginal improvement. NO paint presence and No PG are real the problems. Any trades for the Hawks MUST ADDRESS THESE AREAS!!!
I will say it for the 100th time; JJ is not the problem. There are only two centers available Portland’s Pryzbilla(7.3 mil) and the Clippers’ Kaman(11.8 mil). Jamal and the # 1 round pick are the only prizes which will command solid players in return. Marvin’s salary has to be dumped and the only way this happen is if one of both pieces mentioned above is included. Maybe Marvin and a 2nd round pick will get Pryzbilla. Kaman will require more; probably Jamal and Marvin. The Clippers really want to dump his salary and quite frankly Jamal is solid, but not worth more than a solid center. Of course, the Hawks will have to take a garbage player for this deal. Either deal improves the Hawks and closes a bad chapter (Marvin).
Next, Jamal is not the difference for getting past the second round of the playoff. The different is if he has to be traded to attempt to do it, then DO IT, NOW! Finally, Bibby, JJ, JC2, or Teague are the answer at the PG. Trade the # 1 pick (late round) to Wahington for Hinrich (9 mil). With Marvin, Jamal, and maybe Mo salaries gone, the Hawks could have a legit PG and Center by Christmas!
The Hawks have do something to make the fans believe they are serious about contending.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
11:30 am
Marvin is out tonight. !@#$
We need 30 point games from Horford AND Smoove.
Who the hell on this team is going to score? We’re 40 ppg down with Craw and Joe out.
MARVIN THIS IS THE ONE GAME OF THE YEAR U STEP UP. KINDA LIKE U DID 2 YEARS AGO WHEN PIERCE HIT THE GAMER WINNER
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
11:32 am
If we lose tonight, there better be a players-only meeting.
I’m ready to see Horf and/or Smoove call out Marvin for being a worthless basketball player
Rod from College Park
December 16th, 2010
11:34 am
O’Brien and J from the A,
I tend to agree with Jeje. We need more than what you say we need from Marvin. He needs to be able to guard the top Wing guy on the other team nightly, so that JJ does not have to do it. He can’t do that. Damien Wilkins has already proved to be a better defensive option than him. My main problem with him offensively is that he does not knock down WIDE OPEN shots. Also the NBA is a game of mismatches. Teams that take advantage of mismatches usually win. Marvin should be a mismatch every night. He is bigger than most small forwards, so he should be able to easily post smaller players and get fouled or score over the top. He is pathetic at posting anyone. As an NBA player, if you can not take advantage of a mismatch, you should not be on the floor (let alone starting and playing heavy minutes), especially if you do not bring anything else to the table.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
11:49 am
Amen, Rod from CP.
I’ve said this 100,392,109 times, and I’ll say it again: I saw Marvin post up Luther Head a few years ago in a Hawks/Rockets games and get BLOCKED/STUFFED by Head (6″2).
Pathetic
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
11:51 am
If Marvin was a lockdown defender and made open jumpshots, we’d easily have made the ECF by now.
Instead, we have 3/3.5 starters every night, depending on what Bibby does (all Bibby can do is shoot contested jumpshots. He can’t get in the lane and he is so bow-legged he takes two steps sideways before he takes one step forward).
O'Brien
December 16th, 2010
11:57 am
Rod,
We’re on the same page. We need Marvin to play lock down defense, make the open shots consistently, and score when he has a smaller player on him.
And when other players are struggling (like with JJ injured, and Jamal only taking 5 shots against Detroit), it would have been nice to see Marvin step up.
Sautee,
There are banger 4’s, and non-banger 4’s as you pointed out. What I mean by Al not banging (as much), is he spends a lot more of his time outside the paint.
And when he plays some of the more physical 5’s, he appears timid sometimes, and takes too long to make his move (as MC referenced in his blog). I wouldn’t be surprised if he picks up more fouls than usual in those kind of games too.
The good thing for us, is Shaq might not play later. And with the Celtics playing last night, it wil be interesting to see which team brings the energy early on.
terrell
December 16th, 2010
12:00 pm
Rod, so in other words, Marvin stinks.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:03 pm
*I meant to say: “Jamal is out tonight. !@#$”
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
12:09 pm
Dragging Knuckles!
If you have a 7′3″ wing span and your knuckles are dragging the ground? Then you should be a helicopter in the paint! Why drop your arms below your waist Ever?
Heck, Mugsy Bogues and Earl Boykins become your shot blocker.
Has anyone besides me ever saw Marvin and ZaZa get every shot blocked on the post? That’s because they play small for their size.
Isn’t it a fundamental skill to play with your arms up on defense and offense in the post. To block shots and dunk on smaller people. Marvin has no
“back to the basket” game, low post moves, no pump fakes nor jab steps on the perimeter either. Where IS his game? Does he even have one?
Why not take a little of that money and go buy yourself a game instead of a house and a Mercedes Benz – Marvin?
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
12:10 pm
Rod from CP and JeJe,
I think we agree much more than disagree about Marvin.
I think the only point of disagreement is that I don’t think Marvin needs to provide a consistent 14/16 ppg. However, he does need to be able to consistently step up (offensively) when our other offensive threats are out/off. Further, we both agree that Marvin need to be able to exploit the mismatches and hit open threes when his number is called. Offensively, I am fine with Marvin 8ppg as long as he is able to consistently step up when his number is called (both in terms of whole games when others are struggling and in terms of exploiting his mismatches when the situation calls for it).
We completely agree on the defensive side of things.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:10 pm
I’d start:
Bibby Damien Josh Horford ZaZa
and let Marvin play 35+ min OFF THE BENCH.
Will be interesting if Jo-Craw can do anything tonightt
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
12:11 pm
O’Brien ninja’d my “on the same page comment” lol
JoJo the Godfather
December 16th, 2010
12:12 pm
Dallas has to believe that they’re close, and trading for Joe Johnson might put them over the top.
I still think that a Joe Johnson & Jason Collins (with his permission) trade for Brendan Haywood, Caron Butler (expiring) & rookie Dominique Jones (Hawks were high on him this Summer) makes some sense.
Jones (to me) makes Teague expendable. He’s definitely a guy whose “inner dog” is not in question. Great pre-draft, Summer League, and now D-League showings. A 6′4″ PG with a huge wingspan, that’s not afraid to get in the lane and mix it up.
That also gives us over $22.5M in expiring contracts to try to deal away or re-sign (Jamal Crawford, Caron Butler & Mo Evans).
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
12:14 pm
Speaking of the bigger line up … it proved fairly successful. Was that success simply a matter of match ups or is the bigger line up in general a better line up for the Hawks?
I would like to see more of the bigger line up against a variety of teams, even once JJ comes back.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:14 pm
JoJo,
That trade may look good on paper, but Caron is expiring and this team will never not start Marvin. Plus, if you get Haywood I’d assume he starts, shifting Horf and Smoove down a position.
But I do think Dallas is one team that would bite on Joe Johnson – no homo
SteveW
December 16th, 2010
12:16 pm
Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build.
He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach.
Ramon
December 16th, 2010
12:16 pm
JeJe, Zaza over Collins?
SteveW
December 16th, 2010
12:19 pm
JC2 is the type player that can give Boston problems as is Teague. Maybe Rondo will be out for them, because Bibby versus Rondo is not a pretty sight. With Shaq out, we have a chance on the inside.
JoJo the Godfather
December 16th, 2010
12:22 pm
I’m close to JeJe’s lineup for tonight: Bibby, Wilkins, Smith, Horford & Collins.
We’ll need Wilkins to chase Ray Allen through all those screens, and Collins should keep Erden (if he starts again) completely out of the paint. Erden is too narrow to try to bang with Collins down low.
Coming off the bench should be: Teague/JC2/Williams/Powell/Pachulia. Give Mo some rest.
lewis
December 16th, 2010
12:26 pm
ROFL @ What the starting lineup is probably going to be
Bibby (old, slow, can’t create shots for himself or others)
Mo (blue collar defender, could get his around the basket but has proved useless with bum knee)
Marvin (offensively challenged, defensively capabilities lessened due to bum knee)
Josh – one of 2 productive hawks
Al – other of 2 productive hawks
Mo + Marvin = .8 or 80% of legitimate starter
Bibby = .4 or 40% of a legitimate starter
So, instead of playing 4 on 5 like usual, its more like 3.2 on 5 today
Sherewshevsky
December 16th, 2010
12:38 pm
Favorite quotes re the Celtic massacre of the Hawks:
“They kind of embarrassed last time,” Hawks guard Mike Bibby said . ["kind of," sort of, maybe, perhaps....]
“I want to see what our guys are made of,” Drew said. [He never has before?]
About tonite’s hawks-celtics game:
“It will be a good game for us to see how we respond given the results of the last game with them,” Hawks forward Mo Evans said. [yeah, i guess it's a good game for that. the Detroit game was not a good game for that.]
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:49 pm
My bad – a lot of careless typos today:
Starting lineup:
Bibby Damien Josh Horf COLLINS
We need to RUN the basketball and ATTACK the hoop. This means Teague needs to get minutes and ATTACK.
I have a feeling tonight will not turn out well, even with Boston’s injuries. I hope Rondo plays major minutes so we don’t have to deal with Nate as much.
Hopefully ASG doesn’t break its silence soon and gripe about injuries because they always love mentioning injuries whenever we are losing.
I hope Damien gets major minutes on Pierce tonight and annoys the hell out of him. That defense Damien played on Rip (I think) at the end of the quarter the other night, as well as his D on LBJ a few weeks ago, needs to be on full display tonight. No need to waste Damien on Ray because any guy on the team (besides Marvin) can fight through screens and contest shots. We need Damien to be an absolute pest if he gets minutes on Pierce.
We are hella short on scoring with our 2 top scorers out. We need Horf, Smoove, and Marvin to have huge games, and one of the three (Marvin) needs to explode like nobody’s business
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:51 pm
Also, does anyone ever hear Marvin say “I need to step it up” or “I’ve been in a funk and need to play with more energy”??? Its always “my knee is still hurting” or he just doesn’t comment at all when fully healthy.
MARVIN AND BIBBY FOR MONTA ELLIS
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:57 pm
From reading the players’ comments over the years, it’s always “We don’t want to embarrased” or “we need to make sure we come out with energy so we don’t get embarrassed like last time.”
What ever happened to “this game is a must-win. We need to show we can beat an elite team?”
The mentalities of this team are way messed up and there’s no desperation. You will all see tonight in the energy level in the 1st qtr if this team wants to win or not
Clyde
December 16th, 2010
1:07 pm
With Jamal, Joe, and Marvin out we might as well forfeit the game.
Start Bibby, JCrawford, Smith, Horford, Collins
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
1:12 pm
Marvin should be playing tonight (unfortunately). I made a typo earlier
Clyde
December 16th, 2010
1:18 pm
He need to be out. Out the League. Any other team would have cut him by now.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
1:23 pm
FIRE WOODY
Rev in Tampa
December 16th, 2010
1:28 pm
Rondo sprained his ankle last night. How much will it slow him down?
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5925621
Section 303
December 16th, 2010
1:53 pm
Guys, I think we would all be better off just writing this game off tonight. Too many injuries, on the road, against the probable best team in the East….it’s going to get ugly.
Just know that going in and you will be find. Wipe any thoughts of this team winning tonight right out of your mind. It’s not going to happen. No chance. Zero. Nadda.
Let’s just start to hope that they can manage to beat the Bobcats tomorrow night. With all the injuries, that is not a sure thing.
yodaddy
December 16th, 2010
2:47 pm
Why would we trade our All Star SG for a backup center, rookie SG, and a has been SF?
You people make no sense….You should only trade all stars for other all stars unless it’s a Denver situation.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
2:51 pm
If we are not gonna win tonight, can we use one of our worst players to put Pierce and Garnett on the ground? God I hate those guys
yodaddy
December 16th, 2010
3:09 pm
This game is shaping up to be a disaster.
Jamal & JJ out…our two players that can score on their own.
Marvin is Marvin = 4 pts, 3 rebs, 39 minutes
Mo Evans is Mo = 0 pts, 1 reb, 5 fouls, 20 minutes
Bibby has to have a lights out game as well as Josh & Al Horford for us to even have a chance.
Teague breakout game? Jordan Crawford break out game? Maybe so…who will chase Ray Allen all night? Damien will be on Paul Pierce. Hopefully (not in health but in bball terms) Rondo is still gimpy. We have a clear mismatch of Al Horford vs. Erden…we need to go there everytime.
KG is too strong for Josh but I’m hoping Josh will show he’s a real player by taking it to KG.
To win this game, Marvin Williams needs at least 15 points. If Mo Evans gets a lot of minutes we need at least 12 points.
Our consistent players: Al,Josh,Bibby,Powell will do their thing.
Hopefully our interior can exploit theirs…they only have KG, Big Baby & Erden on the blocks for this game.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
3:18 pm
KG is not too strong. Smoove looks stronger. He needs to play a mature gm tonight and not just shoot jumpers
Sautee
December 16th, 2010
3:21 pm
O’Brien,
about this: “What I mean by Al not banging (as much), is he spends a lot more of his time outside the paint. ”
Agreed, BUT…… don’t you think some of that is an effect of LD’s offense? I’d like to see Al post up a lot more, but that seems to only happen sporadically. His baby hook is more consistent this year, but he hasn’t had that many chances to shoot it. I’m delighted in the development of his face up game, but I’d like to see him “go to work” in the paint more often. And I think his high shooting % on jumpers has him driving less, which to me is backwards for a center who has the ability to just drive past those with slower feet. He should drive from the foul line a few times a game, and that would make him all the more dangerous shooting his J, as defenders would have to back up a bit.
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:25 pm
Marvin Williams is a potential WNBA MVP candidate!! Go play with the girls softie! He is clueless, a basketball IQ of a middle school baller. He has no idea what is going out there.Watch him tonight against Boston. Watch how his team mates are practically ignoring him on the court. They know he’s a bust at the critical 3! They don’t trust his game!!!! Heck when he gets benched he puts on his sweats, like ” I don’t want to play anymore” even though its the middle of the 3rd quarter.. His body language speaks volumes..Even the new coach is starting to get it and benching Marvin in the last four minutes of games so the “guy off the streets” Josh Powell can take his minutes and help get the wins. Its over Marvin, the fans have figured your sorry butt out. Get outta here you bum!!!!!
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:27 pm
Hawks lose by 20+ tonight on TNT!!!!
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:29 pm
rondo with one good ankle will blow by Bibby with ease..Bibby is going on 50 years of age. He moves like a turtle…
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
3:37 pm
Would this trade make us better:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=38zp8ch ?
Throw in Mo, or a pick, or Teague (though I would prefer to keep Teague), if need be to make it happen.
If we go primarily BIG after this trade, this trade would give us a much needed improvement at Center. It would give us a better PG rotation. The 1/2 step back at SF should not hurt us, especially if we go with a big lineup w/ Josh at the 3 (or small w/ JJ at the 3). It maintains a high level of flexibility in line ups/positions. The only real downside to this trade would be the loss of JC1, but given fit issues and the fact that JC1 is a defensively liability, I think that loss is more than offset.
(I know. I’ve posted similar trade proposals in the past, but I really think there is something to this trade or some similar trade. It’s the type of trade that I think is realistic enough that it could be a consideration for all parties, and I think it improves the Hawks rotations overall.)
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:42 pm
@SteveW
“Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build”.
“He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach”.
” Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build”.
“He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach”.
And Billy Knight thought this guy was a #2 Lottery Pick?????????? Marvin couldn’t play effectively in the DBL!!! Now the WNBA that’s another story….
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
3:45 pm
The above-trade gives the Hawks the following rotations:
1st unit/2nd unit when primarily playing BIG:
Camby/Collins
Horford/Powell
Smith/Thornton
JJ/Teague/Jo Crawford
Bibby/Hinrich
Substitute Wilkens/Evans/Thomas where appropriate.
1st/2nd units when primarily playing small:
Horford/Camby/Collins
Smith/Powell
JJ/Thornton
Hinrich/Jo Crawford
Bibby/Teague
Substitute Wilkens/Evans/Thomas where appropriate.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
5:22 pm
Rev in Tampa
Ha Ha! Break a Leg huh? Bulls tryin’ to slide past my Hawks.
Hey, Tennis is MY racket, so, I grew up watching Noah’s dad play in the late 70’s and 80’s. I love Noah for calling out Cleveland and LeBron’s little side show last season, but more importantly for competing hard in that series lost!
My Hawks must show up in Round 2 this year!
Rev, you funny man.
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
5:33 pm
Hawks may not make it to the first round…If Joe does not heal up properly and get his shot back its a wrap!
Sautee
December 16th, 2010
6:15 pm
Why slim, you’re so full of positivity.
If they win tonight are you gonna take it all back?
joe johnson friend
December 20th, 2010
12:21 am
the atlanta hawks need to trade marvin williams and mke bibby please..i no longer think we can compete in the eastern conference.