Atlanta Hawks: Noah out, Magic slumping . . . or why it’s good to be in the East
Shockingly, that hair was not the worst news for Joakim Noah tonight. (AP photo)
Boston–Links from around the Association . . .
When Al signed a contract extension with the Hawks that was nearly identical to the one signed by his Florida teammate and friend Joakim Noah, I figured that was about right.
They are comparable players with nearly identical win shares per 48 minutes. Al is the superior offensive player. Noah (probably) is a better post defender, though Al’s defensive versatility can’t be discounted. The areas in which I thought Al had the advantage over Noah were age (he’s more than a full year younger) and durability.
Noah missed 18 games last season with plantar fasciitis in his left foot, which has to be a concern for a big man. Now comes word that he will have thumb surgery and miss up to 10 weeks:
“It sucks,” Noah said. “It’s not what I want. But I have to get back to playing at a high level. I’m tired of taking anti-inflammatory (pills) every time I play. I’m tired of not dribbling with my right hand.
Chicago Shopping: Your home for personalized holiday shopping deals >>“I’m going to miss playing. It’s frustrating because I feel we have a chance to be really, really good. But I know in the long run, this is what needs to be done.”
Even with the bum thumb, Noah went for 11 points, 11 rebounds and two blocks in Chicago’s victory over Toronto. I watched the game alongside Celtics-Knicks (good one, though shocking to see C’s play no D in fourth quarter)) at the sports bar in my hotel and Noah looked pretty good, his ridiculous ‘do (even by his standards) notwithstanding.
The Bulls don’t have much in the way of backups to Noah, unless Omar Asik or Kurt Thomas excite you. Derrick Rose also has been hurting.
Obviously it’s good for the Hawks if the Bulls cool off without Noah, so now we will see if Chicago can hold it down the way the Hawks (so far) have managed to do without J.J.
Magic slumping, not sick
In another item from the “It’s good to be in the East” department . . . .
The Magic are teetering. That’s of course assuming they don’t all still have the flu and aren’t just playing worse than their opponents who are playing bad. Those were the excuses offered by the Magic after Atlanta’s W in their building last week.
But after the Magic loss at Denver Tuesday to end their West road trip at 1-3, Stan Van Gundy didn’t want to hear any of that:
“(It was) not mismatches, not fatigue,” a fuming Van Gundy said. “It was a lack of effort, lack of toughness (and a) lack of any desire to defend anybody … We’re finding every b.s. excuse in the book right now. That’s what we’re doing.” . . .
“It was the same in every game of the trip, even the Clipper game,” Van Gundy said. “We just had a big enough lead at the half to survive. Our offense died in the second half of every one, and we play no defense. We play no defense, whatsoever.
“On this trip we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league. If that doesn’t change, we will be a very bad basketball team.”
(Can’t lie, seeing “a fuming Van Gundy” made me wistful for the days when I could regularly enjoy some good Stan rants.)
Notably, at the Orlando Sentinel’s Magic blog “flu” or “ugly basketball” were not among the choices for a poll asking readers to ID the Magic’s biggest problem. At last look, “Lack of a go-to player,” “Lack of defensive intensity,” and “Lack of effort” were getting blown out by “All of the above.”
Al’s offense
After Atlanta’s L at Detroit Jason Walker at Peachtree Hoops offered the following (thoughtful) critique of Horford’s offense:
I’ve lauded Al Horford time and time again, so allow me to nit pick regarding his performance tonight. Many times Horford holds the ball too long at the top of the key. I know he’s looking to pass because the play calls for it, but there are times when nobody is open and his defender is nowhere in sight that he has to go to the basket with the ball. He defers way too often when he doesn’t have to and sometimes it puts the Hawks in a position where there is no time left (because we initiate the play with 10-12 seconds left) and all that can be done is a long, contested, jump shot.
Walker says Al needs to take the ball to the basket (which he notably did just the other day at San Antonio with great success). I’d add that Al also too often passes up that jumper in those situations. With the way he’s shooting from that range, it’s not like he’s going find many better options passing it around.
Jamal, square peg
Walker also weighed in on what will probably be a continuing theme, the dilemma Jamal faces when asked to run the team:
Crawford takes way too long to get the team going in an offensive set, sometimes defaulting to breaking down his man off the dribble to create some offense for himself. Last night in Detroit, there were times when the shot clock got to 10 and the ball was still in Crawford’s hands without a single pass.
Crawford is misused in this capacity, he needs the freedom to spot up, come off picks, and score the basketball. Getting guys in the right position and cranking up an offense is not his forte. Getting guys to foul him while knocking down a three is.
Sometimes you can just see Jamal yearning to bust out like he did in his days with Woody. It’s what he does best, after all, and it’s not that he isn’t willing to set guys up, it’s just that it goes against his instincts.
Jamal, by the way, is iffy to play against the Celtics due to a sore back. Shaq apparently has ruled himself out for the game, so Doc will have to somehow get by with Big Baby, KG and surprisingly serviceable Turk rook Semih Erden in the power rotation.
Trade talk
ESPN.com CBA guru Larry Coon lists the players who can be traded starting today (which is different from saying they are in fact tradeable). J.J., Josh Powell, Etan and Twin make the list for the Hawks, though Collins can’t be traded without his consent under CBA rules.
So take a look at Coon’s list and dream up your own trade scenarios, blog people. I’ve noticed that 90 percent of the conversation on most NBA blogs is devoted to this pursuit, and that a higher percentage of those scenarios tend to be unrealistic. I know it’s fun, though.
–Michael Cunningham
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80 comments Add your comment
SteveW
December 16th, 2010
12:16 pm
Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build.
He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach.
Ramon
December 16th, 2010
12:16 pm
JeJe, Zaza over Collins?
SteveW
December 16th, 2010
12:19 pm
JC2 is the type player that can give Boston problems as is Teague. Maybe Rondo will be out for them, because Bibby versus Rondo is not a pretty sight. With Shaq out, we have a chance on the inside.
JoJo the Godfather
December 16th, 2010
12:22 pm
I’m close to JeJe’s lineup for tonight: Bibby, Wilkins, Smith, Horford & Collins.
We’ll need Wilkins to chase Ray Allen through all those screens, and Collins should keep Erden (if he starts again) completely out of the paint. Erden is too narrow to try to bang with Collins down low.
Coming off the bench should be: Teague/JC2/Williams/Powell/Pachulia. Give Mo some rest.
lewis
December 16th, 2010
12:26 pm
ROFL @ What the starting lineup is probably going to be
Bibby (old, slow, can’t create shots for himself or others)
Mo (blue collar defender, could get his around the basket but has proved useless with bum knee)
Marvin (offensively challenged, defensively capabilities lessened due to bum knee)
Josh – one of 2 productive hawks
Al – other of 2 productive hawks
Mo + Marvin = .8 or 80% of legitimate starter
Bibby = .4 or 40% of a legitimate starter
So, instead of playing 4 on 5 like usual, its more like 3.2 on 5 today
Sherewshevsky
December 16th, 2010
12:38 pm
Favorite quotes re the Celtic massacre of the Hawks:
“They kind of embarrassed last time,” Hawks guard Mike Bibby said . ["kind of," sort of, maybe, perhaps....]
“I want to see what our guys are made of,” Drew said. [He never has before?]
About tonite’s hawks-celtics game:
“It will be a good game for us to see how we respond given the results of the last game with them,” Hawks forward Mo Evans said. [yeah, i guess it's a good game for that. the Detroit game was not a good game for that.]
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:49 pm
My bad – a lot of careless typos today:
Starting lineup:
Bibby Damien Josh Horf COLLINS
We need to RUN the basketball and ATTACK the hoop. This means Teague needs to get minutes and ATTACK.
I have a feeling tonight will not turn out well, even with Boston’s injuries. I hope Rondo plays major minutes so we don’t have to deal with Nate as much.
Hopefully ASG doesn’t break its silence soon and gripe about injuries because they always love mentioning injuries whenever we are losing.
I hope Damien gets major minutes on Pierce tonight and annoys the hell out of him. That defense Damien played on Rip (I think) at the end of the quarter the other night, as well as his D on LBJ a few weeks ago, needs to be on full display tonight. No need to waste Damien on Ray because any guy on the team (besides Marvin) can fight through screens and contest shots. We need Damien to be an absolute pest if he gets minutes on Pierce.
We are hella short on scoring with our 2 top scorers out. We need Horf, Smoove, and Marvin to have huge games, and one of the three (Marvin) needs to explode like nobody’s business
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:51 pm
Also, does anyone ever hear Marvin say “I need to step it up” or “I’ve been in a funk and need to play with more energy”??? Its always “my knee is still hurting” or he just doesn’t comment at all when fully healthy.
MARVIN AND BIBBY FOR MONTA ELLIS
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
12:57 pm
From reading the players’ comments over the years, it’s always “We don’t want to embarrased” or “we need to make sure we come out with energy so we don’t get embarrassed like last time.”
What ever happened to “this game is a must-win. We need to show we can beat an elite team?”
The mentalities of this team are way messed up and there’s no desperation. You will all see tonight in the energy level in the 1st qtr if this team wants to win or not
Clyde
December 16th, 2010
1:07 pm
With Jamal, Joe, and Marvin out we might as well forfeit the game.
Start Bibby, JCrawford, Smith, Horford, Collins
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
1:12 pm
Marvin should be playing tonight (unfortunately). I made a typo earlier
Clyde
December 16th, 2010
1:18 pm
He need to be out. Out the League. Any other team would have cut him by now.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
1:23 pm
FIRE WOODY
Rev in Tampa
December 16th, 2010
1:28 pm
Rondo sprained his ankle last night. How much will it slow him down?
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=5925621
Section 303
December 16th, 2010
1:53 pm
Guys, I think we would all be better off just writing this game off tonight. Too many injuries, on the road, against the probable best team in the East….it’s going to get ugly.
Just know that going in and you will be find. Wipe any thoughts of this team winning tonight right out of your mind. It’s not going to happen. No chance. Zero. Nadda.
Let’s just start to hope that they can manage to beat the Bobcats tomorrow night. With all the injuries, that is not a sure thing.
yodaddy
December 16th, 2010
2:47 pm
Why would we trade our All Star SG for a backup center, rookie SG, and a has been SF?
You people make no sense….You should only trade all stars for other all stars unless it’s a Denver situation.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
2:51 pm
If we are not gonna win tonight, can we use one of our worst players to put Pierce and Garnett on the ground? God I hate those guys
yodaddy
December 16th, 2010
3:09 pm
This game is shaping up to be a disaster.
Jamal & JJ out…our two players that can score on their own.
Marvin is Marvin = 4 pts, 3 rebs, 39 minutes
Mo Evans is Mo = 0 pts, 1 reb, 5 fouls, 20 minutes
Bibby has to have a lights out game as well as Josh & Al Horford for us to even have a chance.
Teague breakout game? Jordan Crawford break out game? Maybe so…who will chase Ray Allen all night? Damien will be on Paul Pierce. Hopefully (not in health but in bball terms) Rondo is still gimpy. We have a clear mismatch of Al Horford vs. Erden…we need to go there everytime.
KG is too strong for Josh but I’m hoping Josh will show he’s a real player by taking it to KG.
To win this game, Marvin Williams needs at least 15 points. If Mo Evans gets a lot of minutes we need at least 12 points.
Our consistent players: Al,Josh,Bibby,Powell will do their thing.
Hopefully our interior can exploit theirs…they only have KG, Big Baby & Erden on the blocks for this game.
JeJe
December 16th, 2010
3:18 pm
KG is not too strong. Smoove looks stronger. He needs to play a mature gm tonight and not just shoot jumpers
Sautee
December 16th, 2010
3:21 pm
O’Brien,
about this: “What I mean by Al not banging (as much), is he spends a lot more of his time outside the paint. ”
Agreed, BUT…… don’t you think some of that is an effect of LD’s offense? I’d like to see Al post up a lot more, but that seems to only happen sporadically. His baby hook is more consistent this year, but he hasn’t had that many chances to shoot it. I’m delighted in the development of his face up game, but I’d like to see him “go to work” in the paint more often. And I think his high shooting % on jumpers has him driving less, which to me is backwards for a center who has the ability to just drive past those with slower feet. He should drive from the foul line a few times a game, and that would make him all the more dangerous shooting his J, as defenders would have to back up a bit.
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:25 pm
Marvin Williams is a potential WNBA MVP candidate!! Go play with the girls softie! He is clueless, a basketball IQ of a middle school baller. He has no idea what is going out there.Watch him tonight against Boston. Watch how his team mates are practically ignoring him on the court. They know he’s a bust at the critical 3! They don’t trust his game!!!! Heck when he gets benched he puts on his sweats, like ” I don’t want to play anymore” even though its the middle of the 3rd quarter.. His body language speaks volumes..Even the new coach is starting to get it and benching Marvin in the last four minutes of games so the “guy off the streets” Josh Powell can take his minutes and help get the wins. Its over Marvin, the fans have figured your sorry butt out. Get outta here you bum!!!!!
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:27 pm
Hawks lose by 20+ tonight on TNT!!!!
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:29 pm
rondo with one good ankle will blow by Bibby with ease..Bibby is going on 50 years of age. He moves like a turtle…
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
3:37 pm
Would this trade make us better:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=38zp8ch ?
Throw in Mo, or a pick, or Teague (though I would prefer to keep Teague), if need be to make it happen.
If we go primarily BIG after this trade, this trade would give us a much needed improvement at Center. It would give us a better PG rotation. The 1/2 step back at SF should not hurt us, especially if we go with a big lineup w/ Josh at the 3 (or small w/ JJ at the 3). It maintains a high level of flexibility in line ups/positions. The only real downside to this trade would be the loss of JC1, but given fit issues and the fact that JC1 is a defensively liability, I think that loss is more than offset.
(I know. I’ve posted similar trade proposals in the past, but I really think there is something to this trade or some similar trade. It’s the type of trade that I think is realistic enough that it could be a consideration for all parties, and I think it improves the Hawks rotations overall.)
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
3:42 pm
@SteveW
“Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build”.
“He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach”.
” Marvin has prototypical size for PF 6-9 240, but not a prototypical build. His shoulders and chest are way to narrow. He looks like a lower back injury waiting to happen with his build”.
“He doesn’t have a “V” shape, more like and upside down “U”. No wonder he likes to play outside. I say get Ida Cavin and force Marvin and ZaZa to sit under him for 2 months as their personal basketball coach”.
And Billy Knight thought this guy was a #2 Lottery Pick?????????? Marvin couldn’t play effectively in the DBL!!! Now the WNBA that’s another story….
J from the A
December 16th, 2010
3:45 pm
The above-trade gives the Hawks the following rotations:
1st unit/2nd unit when primarily playing BIG:
Camby/Collins
Horford/Powell
Smith/Thornton
JJ/Teague/Jo Crawford
Bibby/Hinrich
Substitute Wilkens/Evans/Thomas where appropriate.
1st/2nd units when primarily playing small:
Horford/Camby/Collins
Smith/Powell
JJ/Thornton
Hinrich/Jo Crawford
Bibby/Teague
Substitute Wilkens/Evans/Thomas where appropriate.
drmaryb (*_*)
December 16th, 2010
5:22 pm
Rev in Tampa
Ha Ha! Break a Leg huh? Bulls tryin’ to slide past my Hawks.
Hey, Tennis is MY racket, so, I grew up watching Noah’s dad play in the late 70’s and 80’s. I love Noah for calling out Cleveland and LeBron’s little side show last season, but more importantly for competing hard in that series lost!
My Hawks must show up in Round 2 this year!
Rev, you funny man.
slimjr
December 16th, 2010
5:33 pm
Hawks may not make it to the first round…If Joe does not heal up properly and get his shot back its a wrap!
Sautee
December 16th, 2010
6:15 pm
Why slim, you’re so full of positivity.
If they win tonight are you gonna take it all back?
joe johnson friend
December 20th, 2010
12:21 am
the atlanta hawks need to trade marvin williams and mke bibby please..i no longer think we can compete in the eastern conference.