Atlanta Hawks: How Rick Sund sees them
Sund changed his coach but not the core. (Curtis Compton/ccompton@ajc.com)
When he was evaluating the Hawks at the end of last season, GM Rick Sund took a look at the other seven teams to play in the conference semifinals and did his own round-robin calculation.
The way Sund sees it–and he said most GMs look at it the same way–the elite teams are those that earn homecourt advantage in the first round and advance to the second round.
“When you get through that first round, that validates that you are an elite team,” Sund said. “Now what I do is I take the record of all the final four in one conference and the others and see how you do against each other. It’s a great barometer because you play 20 games against [common] opponents.”
So how did each team fare against the others?
The Cavaliers were 13-7.
“That’s an incredible record,” Sund said.
The Magic were 12-8, no surprise since they steamrolled through last two months of the regular season. The Lakers were 10-10. And the Hawks? They were 11-9 against Cleveland, Orlando, Boston, Utah, Phoenix, San Antonio and the Lakers.
So scored by Sund’s 20-game litmus test, the Hawks were third in the East behind Cleveland and Orlando, each of whim beat the Hawks three out of four during the regular season.
“We weren’t ready to advance in that second round against those teams, particularly one of those teams we went 1-3 against,” he said. “But that all goes into your [evaluation] of your club.”
The problem for the Hawks, of course, wasn’t that they couldn’t beat Orlando. It’s that they couldn’t compete with them. Clearly that’s the reason Woody is no longer the coach.
Sund could have gone further and sent away some players, too. But the 53 wins and the 11-9 record last season against the other teams Sund considered elite–while no reason to throw a parade–also helped convince him that dismantling the team would be premature.
He said he learned from Jerry West and Wayne Embry not to blow up a good core too soon.
“Fans may not understand and media certainly wouldn’t understand because they like the hype of all the moves in the summer,” he said. “But when you look at our club, we’ve got a pretty damn good club and a good nucleus given that we [operate] under the luxury tax.”
MC
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232 comments Add your comment
vava74
October 21st, 2010
9:24 am
drmaryB,
Sorry but you are wrong: apart from Perkins and Baby, who are obviously beefy, the biggest difference maker is Rondo who is a good perimeter defender and kept Nelson away from the paint.
After that being accomplished, Howard had to face one on one beef.
The problem with the Hawks and apparently the Mavericks last night is that with Nelson roaming freely into the paint, the C’s and PF’s have to scramble to prevent easy lay ups and when they scramble, Nelson gets the rock to Howard free to dunk on people.
Against us, on situations in which Howard posted our C’s and the plays were strictly ONE ON ONE, Howard had a point per possession ration lower than 1.0 in between bricks, missed shots and turnovers.
That IS the issue, not the BEEF.
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
9:27 am
Hit The Road Jack!
north
October 20th, 2010
11:41 pm
northcyde as usual, phenomenal job and research on the
Home Wins and Road Wins hard look.
Your explanation and description of what makes an Elite Team – Elite?
Was, well – RICH!
Downright – Rich!
vava74
October 21st, 2010
9:41 am
drmaryB,
Just click on this:
http://www.nba.com/games/20101020/DALORL/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0011000101#
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
9:49 am
vava74
I was specifically answering your question of: Where is The Beef?
I wasn’t talking about perimeter Defense in that conversation, just
the issues that Dwight bring in the post.
Now, if you read my other posts: it’s ALL about perimeter defense – for real.
But, I enthusiastically Co-Sign your entire last post!
Verbatum and Spot-On. The Perimeter Defense controls the Game Tempo and helps the Interior Defense tremendously, especially when you have a
Dwight looming in the paint. The last time we had a semblance of that in Atlanta, GA.? Was Mookie & Dikembie. That team had no Bench and MJ was running loose back then too! That was the last ERA of great team basketball league wide!
Great Job! vava74 – You throwing Seven types of Smoke today!
Watch Out! Jet Li! … Bruce Li!
-smiles-
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
9:58 am
vava74
Thanks for that link.
Buddy Grizzard
October 21st, 2010
10:06 am
We passed on Deron Williams
We passed on Chris Paul
We passed on Darren Collison
The Pacers got Darren Collison for Trevor Ariza. Would they have taken Jamal Crawford?
Buddy Grizzard, President and Founder, The Rick Sund Glue Factory Committee
Rufus1
October 21st, 2010
10:11 am
Vava co-sign
On all those posts about the “SIZE MITH”… It has and will be about stopping perimeter penetration. Breaking down defenses and creating easy shot for their teams is what elite PG do.
It is the reason we HAVE BEEN BEGGING FOR A PG FOR YEARS!!!!!! It is the reason DOC Rivers even after aquiring the BIG 3, spent the entire year developing RONDO.
Rufus1
October 21st, 2010
10:21 am
2 years ago…I think
I remember when CP3 was destroying the Hawks in the 1st half (just like he had always done). Woody put AC Law on CP3 and Law shut down CP3 penetration….we blowout the Hornets. The Lakers beat Boston in the finals when they stopped Rondo’s penetration and made him a jump shooter. The Key to the Hawks success is Teague and Jordan, because they skills and the will to penetrate
vava74
October 21st, 2010
10:23 am
Buddy,
No, NO would never trade Collison for Crawford.
Ariza is younger, more versatile and a very good defender.
Jamal is 30 and a one trick pony who sometimes benefits his teams and sometimes sinks them with his exciting but completely unreliable game.
Ariza last year shot really badly as the go-to guy in Houston and struggled to meet his own personal expectations as a star (which he is not), however, overall since he brings a two way game (offense – defense) he is a very useful player.
Hence, they pulled the trigger.
My guess is that Jamal will only have limited trade value when we approach the deadline and some playoff bound team desperate for scoring off the bench (due to injury, for instance) is willing to make a move, but even then, don’t expect anything major in return.
Jamal is like a boat: exciting but ultimately superfluous and expensive to maintain.
This would only change if – unlike he showed against the Magic – he at least tried to play D and remained focused when he is on the floor.
He was even worse than Bibby defensively – and by FAR – and that alone sets his trade and per year values much lower than most people around here (and himself) think he is worth.
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
11:08 am
Does anyone think Philly would take Crawford’s expiring contract, Mo Evans, and our trade exception for AI2?
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
11:09 am
Vava, Collison plays for the Pacers now
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
11:21 am
Denver gets:
Jamal Crawford
Al Horford
Mo Evans
Zaza Pachulia
And 1st Round Draft Pick
Hawks get:
Carmelo Anthony
Nene
I know it seems a lot with the 1st round pick. But not having the 1st round pick gives you more money next year to spend on another veteran back up PG for Teague.
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
11:27 am
Also, that would give Denver close to $13 million in expiring contracts (Mo Evans and JC1), an all star, and a first round pick. Atlanta gets the big center you guys have said you wanted, a consistent scorer who can put the opposition’s wing in foul trouble, and still keeps Marvin to come off the bench. The important part is Marvin is able to guard the opposing team’s 2 or 3. So if scoring is needed from the bench, put in JC2. And if defense is needed from the bench put in Marvin. Also coming off the bench would create more scoring opportunities for Marvin. This would also create extra roster spots for Sund to add another big. With the way Collins is moving this season, Nene, Collins, Josh Boone, and Thomas could man the C spot this season. Also against most teams, Marvin can back up Josh at the 4 as well.
O'Brien
October 21st, 2010
11:51 am
Ramon,
Hawks and Denver will not consider it, because ATL is not on Carmelo’s wish list. From what I’ve heard, his list is Knicks, Bulls, and Nets.
All things considered though, I dont like the deal. We are giving up Al and ZaZa, for Nene who has been injured in the past? And I doubt the Nuggets like that deal because they already have JR Smith. Plus our first round pick will probably be in the twenties.
vava,
Which is why Jamal should have been traded after we drafted Jordan. His value was at its highest this past off-season. But now, we will have less ISO Jamal than last year, and our defense will be more man to man. Jamal will probably get exposed even more defensively, and his offensive numbers might decline given the new offense.
Rufus1,
I dont know why some people fail to realize that team defense begins on the perimter.
ryan
October 21st, 2010
11:54 am
I like that trade the question would be would Denver like it .
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
12:02 pm
O’Brien, look at the offer that New York is offering. And tell me you don’t think that offer would be better. Also Melo never said the Clippers were on his list, but I’m sure he wouldn’t mind playing there. Of course the deal would be based on him signing an extension. But Crawford’s expiring contract is just as good as Eddie Curry’s, because you at least get good production out of it. And I know Horford is a better attraction than Gallinari, Randolph, or anything Chicago could offer. I understand about Zaza. However, right now Collins is playing better than Zaza. And if you could add Dampier to the mix, Zaza won’t be missed.
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
12:04 pm
O’Brien, I’m a firm believer in having a better defensive perimeter would solve a lot of problems for the Hawks.
Ramon,
October 21st, 2010
12:24 pm
Enter your comments here
Section 303
October 21st, 2010
12:41 pm
Guys, I’m curious…..Any of you going to the game tonight?
I am. Usually, regardless of how down I can get on the Hawks, I look forward to attending the games. Tonight, not so sure. I love to watch the game, but I am dreading listening to the Heat fans. You know they will be there. They will be wearing their Wade, LeBron, Bosh jerseys and act like they are huge fans, even though you know they are not. They probably couldn’t name 3 other players on the team.
Also, the screems from the high school aged girls crowd will be annoying. You will have to hear them after every Wade/LeBron basket.
Anyways…anyone going?
BBgenie
October 21st, 2010
12:46 pm
Question of the WEEK! Who saw the NBA Round Table show, on ESPN? Guess which NBA Team was NOT “talked about” “thought about” or even Mention????? Our Beloved Hawks!!! WHY?????? Because they have NO HEART! They are like the Bonic Man or “Team” Who needs to GO SEE THE WIZARD of Oz. To get a Heart and a bucket of Courage. It was an 1 1/2 hour show. Somebody Please ask Rick Sund does that me we are a Elite Team?????
vava74
October 21st, 2010
12:48 pm
Ramon,
How can we put this to you in a way that you understand:
“CARMELO DOES NOT WANT TO COME TO ATL”
Is that clear enough?
vava74
October 21st, 2010
12:49 pm
Ramon,
Also, if you read my mail properly, it was a reply to an e-mail by Buddy referring to the PAST.
COULD HAVE WE MANAGED TO TRADE JAMAL FOR COLLISON, GIVEN THE FACT THAT NO ACCEPTED ARIZA?
ryan
October 21st, 2010
12:54 pm
My opinion is that Mello will just ride out the storm in Denver and become a FA and the sign in New York or Chi Town .
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
1:06 pm
Vava, this is what I read
Buddy,
No, NO would never trade Collison for Crawford.
jay dubu
October 21st, 2010
1:18 pm
I understand Sund’s thought process on the elite teams, but the Hawks are just not there yet. I consider an elite team to be one that actually has a better than average chance to compete for the championship.
Matchups are the key, and although the Hawks matched up well against the Celtics last season, they did not match up well against Cleveland, Orlando, or Miami. The only hope that they had last season in gettig past the 2nd round, was to face Boston…and I really believe that the Celtics would have pulled it out.
JeJe
October 21st, 2010
1:23 pm
SHAQ SAID NO YOUNG TEAMS EVER MAKE IT TO THE FINALS. THAT’S WHY HE DIDN’T COME HERE FOR MORE MONEY
THIS TEAM IS A JOKE. LOOK AT SUND’S COMMENTS. CALLING US AN ELITE TEAM BECAUSE WE BEAT A MILWAUKEE TEAM IN 7 GAMES (WERE DOWN 3-2) THAT WAS WITHOUT ITS 2 BEST PLAYERS.
MOST ARROGANT FRONT OFFICE IN THE NBA. THESE IDIOTS KNOW !@#$ ABOUT THE NBA.
FIRE THEM ALL
Ramon
October 21st, 2010
1:41 pm
Jeje, wouldn’t the fact that Shaq’s Orlando team, and Lebron’s Cleveland team, make ‘no young team ever makes it to the Finals’ a lie?
Section 303
October 21st, 2010
1:53 pm
BBgenie, ESPN is made up of some of the most lazy reporters in the buisness. They talk about three teams all year….Lakers, Celtics, Heat. The reason why they did not talk much about the Hawks (and I watched the show) had nothing to do with heart or no heart. It had everything to do with ESPN not knowing anything about a team not from LA, Boston, or Miami.
northcyde
October 21st, 2010
1:56 pm
I think it’s interesting that MC hasn’t made one comment on this blog. When Sund said those things, he was probably thinking . . . “my blog people are going to eat this dude alive when I tell them this.”
And I misspoke last night. We’re actually 2 – 12 on the road during the playoffs, with 10 blowouts.
Boston: 0 – 4
Miami: 1 – 2
Cleveland: 0 – 2
Milwaukee: 1 – 2
Orlando: 0 – 2
And the 2 road wins were SOLELY because of great defense, not great offense.
Game 4 in Miami: 81 – 71 win
Game 6 in Milwaukee: 83 – 69 win
Those are the types of games that ELITE TEAMS routinely win in the playoffs. But Sund has no clue about that.
LOL @ this front office:
- Gearon: “Josh Smith is the closest thing to Lebron in the NBA.”
- Pendergraph: “There just isn’t much talent at #23 in this draft”.
- Sund: “A team is elite when thei win their 1st round series.”
None of these guys should speak ever again. Just let Dominique talk about the Hawks. The worst thing he may do is slightly mispronounce a word. But he isn’t going to say anything completely idiotic.
Section 303
October 21st, 2010
1:59 pm
jay dubu, as refreshing as it is to hear the Hawks players, staff, management talk about being elite, I think they should come back down to Earth a little bit. No team that willing layed down for Orlando in the 2nd round should consider themselves elite. I think they are either living in denial or just trying to sell the public a sh#t product.
As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Mark Bradley piece he posted yesterday. There really is no buzz to the season. I’m still going to most games, but I was way, way, way more excited about the Hawks at the beginning of the last 3 seasons. I’m no where near as excited now. Granted, I’m still p#ssed at the Joe Johnson comments, but it is not just that. I just think the team has peaked. I don’t think you can go any further with this group than they did last year. I won’t believe otherwise until I see it.
Sekou Smith talked about that on one of his recent podcasts. He was talking about the Denver Nuggets and how Anthony may want to leave just because the Nuggets are tapped out. They had their shot at getting to the Finals and couldn’t do it. So, they’re done.
I think the Hawks are the samething. They won 53-games, tore into the postseason, then fell on their faces. I think that should have been a clear sign to management to shuffle the deck a little, but ….this is the Hawks….won’t happen.
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
2:05 pm
Section303
I may go to the game tonight. I know you will be there.
You always are.
Please don’t toss your popcorn @ Joe. Enjoy it for yourself.
LOL
-smilesi
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
2:09 pm
I predict a Hawks Win tonight.
I definitely think we will Win the first half!
IDK about half two when all the subs come in.
Our bench may out play theirs.
Is JT0 going tonite?
drmaryb (*_*)
October 21st, 2010
2:15 pm
Joe said, “We don’t care about nobody but this locker room!”
-paraphrased-
I hope this is TRUE, more importantly I hope L.D. and The Hawks don’t believe they are ELITE? I sure hope they have dispelled that Myth!
And, stay thirty and hungry. And, Joe! YOU ARE NOT THE FATHER!
Grandad
October 21st, 2010
2:29 pm
Rick Sund is full of guano.
J from the A
October 21st, 2010
2:30 pm
Does anyone know if there is some secret discount code for the Hawks game tonight?
I mean I would love to go, but I cannot really justify paying top dollar for a PRE-SEASON GAME, even if it is against the Heat.
O'Brien
October 21st, 2010
2:34 pm
northcyde,
I will also add Gearon’s “We will go over the luxury tax to sign the right player. If LeBron was available, sure, we would sign him”
Ramon,
You’re right. I dont think the Knicks deal is all that enticing. But Carmelo will not sign an extension with the Hawks, so the Hawks dont want him.
For the record, even if Carmelo was open to coming to the Hawks, I doubt if Sund makes a deal for him. Sund likes our core, and from what he has done here in ATL, Sund likes sameness and continuity…
ryan
October 21st, 2010
2:42 pm
We need a new owner plane and simple .
Hmmm
October 21st, 2010
2:46 pm
Nene is not Bigger than Al Horford,who routinely took his lunch money last season.
northcyde
October 21st, 2010
2:48 pm
The lack of buzz has everything to do with the front office. Outside of signing JJ, they chose to do the bare minimum with every single offseason move.
* Fans get hype about a possible Avery Johnson hire . . and they opt for Drew
* Fans get hype when we trade down in the draft, and obtain the #27 and #31 picks, enabling us to get a shooter AND a big man . . . they get the shooter, but opt to sell the #31 for money
* Fans get hype about news of something being done with Chill . . . but we find out that he was traded for a trade exception so small, that it may not even be used. And even if it is used, the player we get in return may not be worth anything
* Fans get hype about a possible acqusition of Shaq . . . but the front office did nothing more than offer him slightly above minimum deal, instead of going all out ( or even trading a player ) to get him.
So when you see all of these things happen over the summer, coupled with the horrible taste that the playoffs left in our mouths, it’s real easy to see why there is no buzz about this team.
Maybe . . maybe if they look good tonight vs the Heat, a little bit of that buzz can be generated. But the ownership/front office have no one to blame but themselves, for the lack of buzz about the Hawks.
The Truth
October 21st, 2010
2:51 pm
LD complimenting Orlando on their victory over the Hawks:
“That team is on a mission and we’ve got to get like that,” L.D. said. “They are certainly a measuring stick. They are playing at a high level; they are playing with a lot of intensity. They’re getting the job done now. They are not waiting until the start of the regular season. That’s where we have to get to.”
While his statements are extremely candid and quietly frankly true, as a head coach who should be in accordance with his GM, does LD statements assures us that his team is elite? If anything, he’s spinning his team to be in a rebuilding mode and not yet ready for prime time certainly not elite. To translate LD statements, he’s saying he wants his team (a pretender) to be like Orlando (a contender) in other words “We Want to be like Them When We Grow Up”
So who’s lying, Sund or LD?
ryan
October 21st, 2010
3:04 pm
Avery Johnson would have created a lot buzz than Drew and players would be playing much harder than are now ASG is just to damn cheap thats why we need a change .
Hmmm
October 21st, 2010
3:05 pm
“Public Indecency
DUI – driving the basketball under the influence
Failure to Maintain Lanes
Impersonating an Elite Basketball Team”
LOL @ DrMaryB (*_*)
Sautee
October 21st, 2010
3:08 pm
Ramon,
mea culpa?
Melvin
October 21st, 2010
3:10 pm
Northcyde,
Co-sign your 2:48 post twice…
northcyde
October 21st, 2010
3:15 pm
O’Brien . . no doubt.
If these guys aren’t willing to do something significant to improve the team, then they should all shut the F up and stay behind the scenes.
D-Ball
October 21st, 2010
3:33 pm
Sounds like Sund went to Jerry Jones University.
MsDee
October 21st, 2010
3:39 pm
No one matches up well with Orlando BUT Boston..Miami will have their lunches ate by Orlando as well this week!
MsDee
October 21st, 2010
3:43 pm
Out of all the pre-season games played thus far, tonight is the game that MUST matter to the Hawks. Orlando has always had our number, but Miami will try and take over our position in this division and we cant let that happen. The Hawks MUST go ALL OUT on defense tonight if they dont want to be embarrass yet again on their home court! GO HAWK!!!!!!!1
i_am_soulstar
October 21st, 2010
4:05 pm
Well, they did offer Shaq money to come. What can we say, the guy didn’t wanna be here.
Cheap Fan
October 21st, 2010
4:16 pm
the can talk about the fans all they want but if they can operate under the lux tax so can I, every time my nephew get an A in school he get tix and thats all the games I’m a go see. when they decide to break bread so will I cause who wants to pay to see a blowout by Orlando real chatter by a big time Hawks fan who is very tired of this song and dance by the owners, it has gotten old, I had season tix the last THREE years for what to get clowned by other fan’s for sticking with the Hawks, screw that all Atlanta teams are on my piss list for the time being till they man up and really compeat to bring any hardware to Atlanta, it’s bad that we have all major teams right here in this city and none are winners, Green Bay has one team with more championships than all our teams combined, the Marlins have more championships than all combined, the Heat are already tied with all our teams combined with more on the way, this is a MAJOR FAIL by the city of Atlanta and it hurts cause I was born, raised, and will finish in Atlanta.