Atlanta Hawks: “Slight” chance you’ll see Pape Sy

Oh Hawks..This is the best we got ?

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Bring in Pape Sy ASAP then. If he can be a rotational player. We NEED another SF to backup Marvin.

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We are doomed.

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Seriously without big help we are behind where were were last season.

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Please don’t feed the trolls
http://marketmynovel.com/2009/10/the-trouble-with-trolls.html

Is there anything (that currently exists) that is NOT on the internet?

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Twin = Collins (who has a twin brother in the NBA)

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I hope he becomes a contributor – but comparing him to Marvin right now? Come on

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“I hope he becomes a contributor – but comparing him to Marvin right now? Come on”

That’s more a reflection on Marvin’s mediocrity than Sy’s potential.

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Grandad – also see this, “And do you really think Al would be a better power forward than Smoove, or at least so much better that it’s worth it to stick Josh out on the perimeter guarding the best athletes in the league?”

I think you have seen yours truly making the same arguments to you…..

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The argument was never that Josh should play the three. We all agree that Josh is above average at the 4. The question is, if we brought in a so called “legit” center, and it forced Al to the 4, would you rather Marvin at the 3 or Josh? If you have any basketball knowledge, and you have eyes, you would rather Josh. In a perfect world, everyone could stay at their positions, but the problem is that you have two guys whose natural position is the 4. I personally like Josh’s game at the 4 better than Al’s, but Josh is versatile enough to check some centers, 4’s and he can guard some 3’s. It does not matter now because Shaq is not here.

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etan thomas?

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Is Larry Drew finished reading the books he recently purchased on motion offenses, so he’ll be ready to install “his” super-secret, miracle system?

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@Rod – you’re missing the point. It’s not about Josh v. Marvin at the 3. It’s about having two starting-caliber power forwards on the same team. Sure you can shift one to the 5 or the 3, but they are less productive than at their natural position. It’s like buying an HDTV but only getting standard cable.

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BTW.

As much as I love Al and Smoove. I kinda wanna see one of them traded if only to end this debate about who would be a better 4. I am just tired of people trying to force Josh into the 3 role. Forget that he has no jumper. His feet are just not fast enough to defend an NBA caliber 3. Besides you take away his best tool at that position, which is help defense. If you tell me Josh won’t get any weakside blocks next year (that’s basically what you would be saying) I would tell you to drop the bum.

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I really hope Marvin excels under Drew, and I think he will, especially after hearing Drew say something about Marvin getting shots in rhythm helping him out, which is so true because Marvin is a rhythm player. I remember when Marvin started jumping rope before games because it helped him perform better, he’s a guy who needs to be involved and active to produce, I think the fact he’s still contributed shows the potential that’s still there. There was a Hawks game on Espn this year where somebody, I think Jamaal Mashburn?, said that Marvin is still not playing to his full potential, it was a play-by-play call during the game, but even he could see that Marvin, for whatever reason (I say Woodson), wasn’t playing to the best of his ability. I’m glad we haven’t given up on Marvin because he has a beautiful shot and I think setting him up for open looks with some screens will really help his game.

Despite all the talk of changes to our team the continued growth of Josh Smith, Al Horford, and Marvin Williams, specifically but not exclusively, in addition to better team chemistry, is our chance to truly contend for a championship. And as an optimistic Hawks fan that is what I choose to believe in, well, hope for at least. Can’t wait to see the new offense in action,Go Hawks!

Also just had to add this in, does it drive anyone else absolutely crazy that we specifically chose players who could play a variety of positions only to have Woodson obsessively force them into clearly defined roles?!? Losing Woodson was THE BEST move we could have made this entire offseason, and we made it, thank GOD. This offseason has been solid in my opinion.

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“can’t see how shifting Smoove to small forward would ever be a good move.”
Then allow me to enlighten you, if your skepticism is based upon the arguments advancedd by many on this board:
1.There is a term called mis-match used in the context and lexicon of American professional basketball to indicate a situation where a player of lessor height,strength or agility is placed in a posistion where they must guard a player of greater height,et al.

In the case of Josh Smith, if he were to play the position commenly referred to as the 3 on this board, he would be taller than a majority of the current players at the position,arguably stronger and certainly as agile.

In essence, the opposite of the the many =and often specious-arguments that is usually advanced for NOT contemplating such a strategy.

2.As anyone who has watched the Hawks over the last six years has observed,Josh Smith has been asked to defend all 5 posistions at one time or another including the memorable steal from Steve Nash,four years ago, to spark a dramatic come from behind victory against the Suns. And as you might be aware, there is a defense called the zone. It allows players in essence to guard an area instead of a specific person, thus allowing an interior defender-a 3- to remain closer to the basket when necessary.

3.With regard to the ad hominem arguement that the lack of outside shooting prowess is an automatic disqualifier for anyone to be considered for the position of the 3, I offer the names of Julius Winfield Erving III and Adrian Dantly as 2 examples of players who ovecame the lack of an eeffective outside shot to achieve a measure of success in their careers.

Regarding Josh’s enthusiasm or the lack thereof for a possible change to the 3, I believe that his avvowed desire to win is a stronger ,more controlling drive and IF the change occurs, he will embrace it and excell.

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Geez, all this time, I thought TWIN was short for TwinKIE. As in Jason is eating too many Twinkies, (and Moon Pies and Devil Dogs).

Like I said over on Ray’s blog, Pape Sy is to Drew what Mario was to Woody. A pet pitbull defender to use for 2 minutes a game and to reinforce a good work ethic during practice.

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everyone= every one

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Hey Cunningham will the Hawks and Thrashers ever be sold because it sounds like the ASG has no money and took the cheapest way out this summer by hiring Drew and not signing Shaq .

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“In the case of Josh Smith, if he were to play the position commenly referred to as the 3 on this board, he would be taller than a majority of the current players at the position,arguably stronger and certainly as agile.”

Being taller than the guy guarding you only matters if you are shooting over him or posting him up. We all know Josh shouldn’t be shooting over anyone, ever, so that leaves us with Josh posting up smaller SFs. Disregarding for a second that plenty of SFs are big enough and quick enough to defend him in the post (including LeBron James and Gerald Wallace in the Hawks’ own division), where does that leave the center? If SF Josh and PF Al are your post players, is Zaza/Collins supposed to start shooting mid-range jumpers like Ilgauskas? There simply isn’t space on the floor for three guys to play in the paint effectively. Not only does moving Josh to SF compromise some of his skills, it also puts another player outside of their comfort zone.

The biggest argument against Josh at SF, above all, is that it would destroy floor spacing. Nobody would have any room to operate, and a lack of shooters on the floor also diminishes one of Josh’s foremost offensive skills, which is passing to the open man out of the double team. Marvin is not a good shooter, but he’s a much better shooter (and has much better form on his shot) than Josh. Defenses don’t lay off Marvin and bait him into shots like they do Josh. Which brings me to…

“I offer the names of Julius Winfield Erving III and Adrian Dantly as 2 examples of players who ovecame the lack of an eeffective outside shot to achieve a measure of success in their careers.”

You’re talking about two guys who entered the NBA at a time when the three-point shot didn’t even exist. The game has changed a lot since the late 70s and early 80s. If you look at the career 3 point leaders list, only Dale Ellis came into the league before the late 80s; most of those guys played in the 90s and 00s. In an NBA with no 3 point line, long range shooting would obviously have been a less prized commodity and players like Erving and Dantley would have seen less of a reason to develop that skill. In today’s NBA, small forwards pretty much have to be able to keep defenses honest with their outside shot, even if they are not prolific shooters, and this is even more important when one of your guards can’t shoot from long range with consistency (like Teague).

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Yeah, I’m sure it’s easy to have a top 15 player at every position in PER.

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I thought Collins’ nickname was Cheeseburger, what happened to that?

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Concerns for playing Josh @ SF:

1. He has no outside shot. That is not his strength. The positive in this possibility is LD is going to use a motion offense, which means that Josh will be passing, cutting, screening, posting, & cutting off of screens. Because od LD’s offensive plan, I can see how Josh could play some minutes @ SF.

2. Perimeter defense is not Josh’s strength. He must improve his lateral quickness and at the same time anticipate other players moves before they make them. The coaches can help him with scouting the opponent as well as perimeter match up assignments. Most of the time Joe can take the tougher assignment when Josh is playing SF. Teague would have to be the PG in this rotation. Bibby & Josh would put two weak perimeter defenders on the court together. The coaches can make it work for short periods of time.

3. The big concern, in my mind, is what’s the advantage of playing Josh @ SF, for the Hawks? Josh has got to bring a complete game if he is going to be able to help the Hawks with Horford and Zaza on the floor @ the same time he is playing SF.

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I wonder what Boris Diaw has told Sy about the Hawks organization? I wonder if he talked to Sy before or after his self-esteem sessions with his latest sports psychologist.

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Rod – I don’t really know what your beef is – if we brought in a very good center – of course I would rather see Josh at 3 than Marvin.

That has not been the discussion with Grandad – he thinks Josh should be moved to three, at least much of the time – I just think Josh is a better 4, for almost identical reasons as MC – enumerated on page 6 of his last blog.

And trust me, if you read me on this and other forums – I have my own opinions. I used MC in this case because Grandad (cool guy, and i like what i now of him BTW) just couldn’t be convinced. Nire’s been writing it. Najeh’s been writing it. I’ve been writing it. Now MC’s writing it. Doesn’t make it correct, just our observations. We have a right to an opinion – just like ya’ll..

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Boris has no real idea of what our team management, coaching staff, ownership, chemistry, ect are like. He’s so far gone he’d have no clue. Maybe he can talk to Sy about the transition to America? Woodson tried to use Diaw, but he never proved to have the competitive edge, aggression or athletic ability to be what he thought he was. Sy seems the antithesis of Diaw. He sees an opportunity and seems to want to prove he can fit in and contribute. He’s known for his hard nosed aggressive style, not the style of Boris – CANDY TAIL – Diaw.

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Anybody that says Josh playing the SF position automatically takes him away from the paint does not have a creative basketball mind. Offensively, there are so many sets you can run where there are 2 guys on the block, regardless of position, teams post up PG’s. Defensively, why do you people think Larry Drew asked Josh to lose 15 pounds when introduced? Because he is going to have to give some minutes at the SF spot. Josh wants to dribble the ball on the break like a SF, he wants to shoot 3’s and long 2’s like a SF, he does not rebound like an elite PF, check Chris Bosh and Boozer 11 rebounds per game, to Josh barely 8. The truth of the matter is Josh is the classic tweener and you people are letting him get away with doing the bad things a tweener does, which is never assert himself in any one category. Josh playing SF can not be any worse than Marvin or Mo playing SF. The only player that would be better than Josh at SF on our team is Joe, but Crawford is not a starter and he should that in his 9 years prior to coming to Atl by never making the playoffs as a starter

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I was trying, to no avail, to find Pape’s salary info (to be considered for buyout feasibility). I couldn’t find it, but I did find these stats by game from last year. http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=FRA&PlayerID=73762 He seems to be a very efficient player, just based on a quick glance.

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Currently watching game 5 of the Bulls Jazz ‘98 final.. Basketball used to be so interesting. I still have hopes for a coach like LD who seeks ball movement and solid defense. Down with the ISO play! On this subject though.. sounds like we’re starting to build for the future, that’s not good. Can we really not find a Luc Longley to fill the middle for us? Different game these days and the officiating was also a lot better back then too.

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How does Lamar Odom play 3 at times if Smoove can’t?

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If Marvin has competition from Josh and Sy he’ll be forced to put up or shut up. I see all this speculation and chatter as summertime motivation for players. We have alot on the line this year. Some feel we’re moving forward, others cry the sky is falling. The players response when the season starts will show which group who is right.

If we maximize the existing talent we can do anything we want…if not we’ll go down yet again like we did w/ Woodson.

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SteveW,

Nire’s been writing it. Najeh’s been writing it. I’ve been writing it. Now MC’s writing it.

The two guys listed first, which I have no beef with now, hold no weight with me concerning anything involving Marvin Williams. One has actually done the impossible and admitted that some of my thoughts about Marvin from 2 years ago might be right, and the other just argues for the sake of arguing. This is a old board argument, which has been discussed many times, you are just in the middle of it this time.

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From the little I saw of Sy in the summer league I know that he gets after it defensively. He might be a better option than Mo since he is bigger. He has some good handles and he is quick when driving to the lane. The kid might shock some people.

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How big is Sy? Because I am under the impression that he is only 6′5″, making him undersized for a SF and more suited to play guard .

As for Boris diaw, he had issues. But woody was not sure how to utilize him. Boris excels at Point Forward (a poor man’s Josh on offense), but woody played him mostly at SG and SF.

I do think this is put up or shut up time for Marvin. No more excuses about his back injury, or blaming it on woody.

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SteveW:
Why don’t you & MC go hold hand & sing “Kum Ba Yah”.
*(no offense Michael)

Rod from College Park – Who woulda’ thunk we
would have formed an alliance.

ILL-Logical – You are the man.

players listed below with 3 pt shooting %:
*Melo 31%
*LbJ 33%
*Marv 30%
*Kirilenko 29 %
*Rudy Gay 32 %
Although better than Josh, still below avg.
& certainly not elite. (percentages)

Folks my argument all along is get your best
players on the floor.
If LD wants to go Big then Josh & Al play [3 & 4].
Marv can back up either.
Motion offense allows for that to occur naturally.
Don’t say Josh cannot block shots while guarding a [3].
He did it last yr guarding everybody but the waterboy.
Heck, he gets alot of blocks chasin’ down fast breaks.
If one plays proper help side defense, it does not matter.
You don’t think teams would scheme to move their [4] away
from the hoop to get Josh further out. Give the other
coach some credit. The game is not played *standing still,
*(well except for Wdsn’s offense) with everyone standing in
one assigned spot.
By the way sometime I’m sure our best line-up will feature
3 guards. Teaguer + Joe & Jamal + 2 Bigs.
Now everyone can be happy…..oh guess what…Joe gets to
play the [3] with this line-up. Imagine if you will – We go
Big Josh @ [3]. We go small Joe @ [3]. Match-up nightmare
for opposition. Everyone must quit stereotyping our players.
The game has changed. We need a face up [5] who can shoot
the “3″, pass effectivly, & guard the rim.
Versatility!!! Don’t pigeonhole Josh.
Also LD’s the coach, if he moves Josh to the [3], he either
moves or sits, or gets traded to Toronto. Never mind,
I forgot for a minute and said out loud what I would do.

That’s too much argueing for one post;
don’t worry SteveW, I’m not through with you just yet.

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Wow!! Grandad we were on the same page. Couldn’t agree more.

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SteveW

Why do you think I want to move Josh to the [3]
just for the sake of moving him.
your original statement was:
“Josh does not have the skill set to play the [3]“.
A statement you have since contradicted by saying;
you would move him if we got a Big/true/(?) center.
Also you keep on saying Josh can run the pick & roll
@ the [4] as easily as the [5]. My point exactly.
Numbers don’t matter in motion offense.

Also ‘Rod from College Park’ knows that I think Marv
is/has been out of pos. all along, and yes we would
be better if LD wants to go bigger with Zaza, to move
Josh to the *so called [3].

Plus, dagnabbit, I showed you ways, “ad nauseam” on how
to space the floor with Josh & Al both on the floor
together. [with a center]

“just saw an interesting blog post that argues the
defensive 3-second rule negates many of the advantages
of the zone” *Michael Cunningham*…..^…..above

If player X is matched up on Josh & Josh is moving
perpetually, including the perimeter, the def 3 sec
rule would allow floor spacing. Player X cannot just
sag off Josh & play a zone.

Thank you – ‘Rod from College Park’ for your comments above.

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“You’re talking about two guys who entered the NBA at a time when the three-point shot didn’t even exist. The game has changed a lot since the late 70s and early 80s. If you look at the career 3 point leaders list, only Dale Ellis came into the league before the late 80s; most of those guys played in the 90s and 00s. In an NBA with no 3 point line, long range shooting would obviously have been a less prized commodity and players like Erving and Dantley would have seen less of a reason to develop that skill.

@ Nejeh – Doc came into the NBA in ‘76 – ‘77 after playing 5 seasons in the ABA which always had the 3 point shot. Doc played 5 years in the ABA during which he made 88 out of 273 3 point shots (about 31%). Doc and AD joined the NBA in ‘76 – ‘77, three years before the 3 pt shot was adopted by the NBA in prior to the ‘79 – ‘80 season. All that is to say, both Doc and AD played the majority of their careers with the 3 pt shot.

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He got a few and 1’s as well. Thats the sign of a scorer. Bye Bye mo. Good riddance, and take Bibby with you. We should sign Trey Gilder for insurance after we ship Mo outta town.

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Odom could play PG if he really needed to. He’s one of the most versatile big men I’ve ever seen. He actually ran the point for Rhode Island in college at times.

Smooth is a totally different player and equally talented, if not more talented, in his own right. Smoove is a better interior and help-side defender with superior athleticism, but he lacks the offensive ability that Odom has. I don’t think these two should really be compared as their styles have very little in common.

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It’s simple folks. Josh needs to continue to start at the 4 and situationally play some 3. It is that simple.

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Here’s my guess, Horford is FAR better at C than Josh would be at 3. So given that the only other 5s on the team are Zaza and Collins, what’s the point of the debate? The T-E-A-M is better of with Horford, Josh and Marvin as the front court players whoplay the majority of their minutes at the 5, 4 and 3 respectively. It doesn’t much matter who is capable of what, the issue is about winning. Right?

What’s next, debating the greatest team trainers in franchise history?

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“I disagree with your comment about Josh Smith’s foot speed. He’s one of the fastest basket to basket players in the league. ”

Straight line foot speed and lateral quickness are two completely different things. Josh is a very quick straight line player. Moving side to side, not so much.

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Najeh,

I am with you, and agree on some of your points, but remember teams don’t guard Marvin at all. If they do, they put a smallish guard like Hinrich or Mayo on him, or his man (Lebron) is free to roam and help on other guys, because Marv posses no offensive threat. Josh is not a great outside shooter, but again with any offense, a team would not dare try to guard Josh with a small guard because they know that Josh would simply take them to the rim and either finish over them or through them. Can’t say the same for Marv. Josh does not have to start in the post. He proved last year playing that point forward crap that he could get to the rim after being on the perimeter. Another point is that in most traditional offenses that I’ve played in, on the break, the 3’s main job is to fill the lane and finish. Who would you rather finish on the break, Marvin who can’t finish against the likes of Jameer Nelson and Brandon Jennings, or Josh? The 4’s and fives usually are asked to trail the play for put backs or rebounds being that they are the farthest back. Arguments can be made both ways, but it really is irrelevant as long as we keep the same team, unless Drew desides to start Zaza at the 5.

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“If player X is matched up on Josh & Josh is moving
perpetually, including the perimeter, the def 3 sec
rule would allow floor spacing. Player X cannot just
sag off Josh & play a zone.”

Defensive 3 seconds only applies if a defensive player spends 3 seconds in the paint without guarding someone. If you’re playing a zone, you just have to step out of the paint every 3 seconds and get back in. Flip Saunders has used zone defenses for the last 10 years despite the 3 second rule and this is what his players do. And don’t forget, the 3-second rule works both ways. Josh can’t just hang out in the paint, wait for the defensive player to get out of his way, and catch an alley oop either. Your hypothetical Player X can sag off Josh and play a zone as long as he’s not in the paint.

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Najeh Davenpoop

I’ve addressed floor spacing ’til I’m tired
of repeating myself to people who won’t listen
or don’t understand concepts.

Also you are correct;
there is a difference between speed & quickness.
Josh is both faster & quicker than Marv.

You guys need to quit trying to form fit Josh into
last year’s system when the Hawks will be running
completely dif schemes this year.
Not to mention adjustments will be made;
something which never occurred in the past.

So ‘DrJ’ would play the [4] in the NBA in today’s game?
[DrJ = 6-6, 200 lbs] per Basketball-Reference.com

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“So ‘DrJ’ would play the [4] in the NBA in today’s game?”

No, but if he was the same age as, say, LeBron, he would have grown up developing a 3-point shot, knowing how important outside shooting is in today’s NBA, and would have come into the NBA with the 3-point shot being a much more significant part of his game. That’s the point I was trying to make.

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I hear that the Pistons may trade Prince and there have been discussions about the Hawks being interested Prince. Have you heard anything about that Cunningham .

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Najeh Davenpoop
5:26 pm

If you read what I said;
“moving perpetually”.
Therefore, player X will not be able to stand
and play “hokie pokie” in the lane.
He will be concernd with going over, under or through
screens. Here’s the best, Josh is an extremely good
passer, so player X will deny Josh in certain situations
to prevent him from becoming a playmaker, Josh will
backcut all day long. Then Josh the sreener, [3 0r 4]
matters not, (remember thats my point) slipping screens,
getting a mis-match off the slip will be devastating.

Astro Joe
4:55 pm

According to the premis laid out in this this post;
our best line-up: [my opinion]
(1) Teaguer
(2) Jamal
(3) Joe
(4) Josh
(5) Al

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Im about to start make money this year off of this predictable a** team!!!!!

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The Real JC,

about this: “It’s about having two starting-caliber power forwards on the same team. Sure you can shift one to the 5 or the 3, but they are less productive than at their natural position.”

OK, we shifted Horford to the 5 and he made the All-Star team. That’s not “less productive” to me. Do you think he makes the All-Star team as a 4?

Remember that he’d have to beat out ONE of Bosh, Amare, and Boozer. I don’t see that happening. I think he has more mis-matches at the 5. That doesn’t mean don’t use him against the lesser 4s of the league, but he should and WILL play the most minutes at the 5. And I’m fine with that.

My .02.

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“it would be interesting to see if they do with Sy. he didn’t play much for Le Havre so i’d think he needs more court time against good comp.”

This guy didn’t even get run in FRANCE and you think he’s going to push Marvin for minutes against NBA 3s? He would sit on the bench as the fourth two guard behind Joe, Jamal and Jordan Crawford.

And we passed on Derick Caracter, a better big man than anyone on our bench, to draft this guy. Caracter is presently deciding whether to take a huge contract overseas or play for a championship with LA.

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Rod, it seems unlikely that a guy who made the ASg at Center and a player who was runner-up to DPOY would be better served by changing positions in deference to either Zaza or Collins.

granddad, that sounds like a line-up that would get crushed on the glass and have little opportunity to push the tempo. I also don’t think that Teague and Jamal make a paricuarly good combo in the backcourt. I have long felt (and said on Ray’s blog) that Teague may not have been well served by sharing the backcourt with Jamal… Evans would have been a better complement.

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Grandad – Here is your quote/my quote

“Josh does not have the skill set to play the [3]“.
A statement you have since contradicted by saying;
you would move him if we got a Big/true/(?) center.

I am not contradicting myself here. What I am saying is that if we have to have an option – say we get Andrew Bynum (for sake of discussion) – and don’t trade Al to get him – I would much rather have Josh out of place on the floor at 3, than Marvin at 3 with Josh on the bench.

I have stated that if Josh worked on his jumper, and lost some weight, he could play 3 better.

And you admitted as far as spacing on the floor – ad nauseum – that Josh could just as easily do the things that you say from the 4 spot as from the 3 spot – so why move him?

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The Hawks do need a new owner/owners, How much does this franchise cost, I know Nique and Smitty got enough money to buy this team…

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Astro,

What about Rashard checking Al in the post? What about Vince Carter trying to check Josh? The argument goes both ways. You also could still have Josh defend Rashard, even if he was playing the 3. It’s called making adjustments. Maybe since you have been watching Woodson for the last couple of years, you forgot that it is possible. Great coaches also know how to create mismatches offensively. There is no way you can convince me that the Hawks would have been wosre than they were last year against Orlando with any lineup changes.

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I wouldn’t mind seeing Sy this year, I think he can backup Marvin. We didn’t get to see him that much in the Summer League because of the injury but I liked his attitude during the time he was on the court. He likes to attack the basket and is really active on defense. I would really like to see another post player on the roster, but if we can have Sy also I will take him. He showed a nice handle for the short time he was on the court.

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i just think that the organization keeping this team together is a good idea because we have no clue what coach drew philosophy will be or the personnel we need to be bringing in. the whole entire team has potential to either flop or or succeed in the new system. it would be disaster if we used that luxury tax slot on shaq only to find out the he just doesn’t fit into our system. same with Marvin and childress. they might both flourish in a different system but i guess well find out if that is so for both..

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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz……..

Can’t wait for the Off Season to end.

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I hope those that have the higher pay scale also are realizing how much of a good job your doing on this blog thing here….nice work MC

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From reading all this discussion I am feeling like I don’t even recognize the Hawks. Everybody is moving everybody to different positions. We have a very good team. We are athletic and talented.

Horford has the size and athleticism to play center very effectively. He has the quickness to play power forward sometimes to create a mismatch. But he is just a tiny bit too slow to excell ALL the time at PF. I am thankful that we have such a quick center.

Josh has the size and athleticism to play power forward very effectively. He has the athleticism to dominate at this position. He has the speed to play small forward sometimes to create a mismatch. But his shooting is too inconsistent to excell ALL the time at SF. I am so glad that we have such an athletic power forward.

I could keep going, but I hope I have said enough to let you know where I am going. We have the athleticism and talent to throw different looks at teams without changing the personnel. Even our back-ups have these same athletic qualities that give them extra weapons.

Those on this blog that take the negative view on everything will say that the Hawks have a bunch of ‘tweeners’ who are not ‘prototypical’ and, therefore, out of place and ineffective.

Sidenote – Our age, with the explosion of technology and ‘knowledge’, has created the ’specialist’ and the ‘expert’. Nobody sees the need for the ‘generalist’ who can do more than one thing well. I’ve got news for everybody. It is the generalist who can do several things well (not as expertly as the specialist) that run the world. The pin-headed specialists are only able to do one thing well. – Sidenote ended.

When I played basketball in college our point guard was 6′8″. He brought the ball down the court and started the offense. But if we did not score off a set play, and the other team was playing man-defense, then guess where he ended up? Through a series of picks & switches he ended up on the block. He posted up better than I ever could. All I ever played was post. I’ve got board hands and can’t dribble to the other end of the court unguarded, but guess where I ended up while he was posted up on the block. I was at the top of the key.

My point is, when you have a versatile team (as the Hawks have) a player’s position is relative to the other team’s weakness.

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After further review, I am also beginning to warm-up to the idea of Etan Thomas as a Hawk big-man option. He is thicker then Boone with slightly better stat numbers including his FT%

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The Truth, the Hawks should NOT sign another scrub center to ride the bench and fill out the 13 man roster. They are still a significant player away from the championship caliber. They will need to make a trade when the camps open or at the trading deadline.

I don’t know who will be available when bottom-feeding teams will be willing to part with players who could actually contribute. I don’t know what their asking price will be, but I do know with absolute certainty that Etan Thomas will not get us into the Eastern Conference Finals.

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Truth-Serum, you crossed some lines that shouldn’t have been crossed and I completely agree with your life-time ban – such that it is.

However, if one of your alter-identities is Paul Hewitt’s Agent, please tell him that I really enjoyed the post several weeks ago that interwove the Altanta Hawks and the Beatitudes. It was one of the more creative things I have seen in some time.

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Im more interested in seeing how LD will form this team.For once,he will be the MAN!!
He has had the luxury of being the mouth to the ear of coaches he was assistant to..And now,he will be the decision maker..Lets see if his “good talk”in the media translate to actually having this team play to their strengths and that they are put in a position to compete and win every game.

We’ll see..We’ll see..

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Yeah I just can’t see Josh playing the 3. I thought LD said he wanted Josh to have more of an inside game and take away some of his outside shots?

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Until we see LD’s offense in motion, we can only speculate how JSmith will be utilized in the SF position. But because SFs in the NBA are primarily scorers and ball handlers, I don’t see JSmith being effective in this position considering his poor ball handling skills and limited offensive moves.

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stevew etan is ready to go after his sternotomy, the incision they made to repair his aorta, tricky surgery but once out of the window of possible complicsations he should be fine. the kid with the lakers traded to the warriors and since traded this summer had the same op and did fine as well and was the brute he was in college.

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The Hawks should have not re-signed Joe Johnson and spent that money on Amare Stoudemire. Amare could have played Center for the Hawks The hawks team would have looked like this.

PG: Jeff Teaque/Mike Bibby
SG: Jamal Crawford/Jordan Crawford
SF: Josh Smith/Marvin Williams
PF: Al Horford/Zaza Pachulia
C: Amare Stoudemire/Jason Collins

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Oops – rational, sane in last post – sorry for the misspelling – my bad!

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“I’m not sure how Riley to use him except maybe to obtain his rights and stash him away somewhere (away from us). ”

This is not possible unless they draft Siler, which is impossible since he already wen undrafted.

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Correction: They sign him to a 2-yr min contract since he is not a vet yet

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SteveW

If that was really you?
-And-
If you’re talkin’ about me?
C’mon, get your facts straight.

You twist everything a person says.

(1) Your original statement:
Josh does not have the skill to play the [3].
I have in this whole melee attempted to counter
that “one statement”.

(2) If a player will defend Josh a certain way
on the floor, it don’t matter if you call him a
[3], a [4], a [7], a small forward, a shortstop,
a hockey puck or a republican.

(3) I do *not* endorse moving Josh anywhere just for
the sake of moving him. I do *not* want Josh & Marv
to switch pos while both continue to start.
However, If LD sees fit to play Zaza & Cheeseburger
Big minutes, *Then* I want both Josh & Al on the
floor together. With proper *Coaching* & [motion off]
*these following items can be accomplished:
* floor spacing
* floor balance
* getting Josh open [in his spots](where he needs to shoot)
* creating match-ups / both on off. & def.
* making adjustments

(4) Do we need a stretch [4,5]?
Yes.

(5) Would any of you bench either Josh or Al if we had
Bargnani?
No.

(6) Is he available?
I wish.

(7) Who is?
Troy Murphy

(8) Has SteveW manipulated my words?
Yes.

(9) Do positions matter in motion offense?
To a certain extent.
A point guard is necessary.
A *TRUE [5] is really, really handy*.
*[see Pau Gasol]
But even those positions can be overcome with
certain personel.
86 Celtics didn’t have a true point guard.
[Danny Ainge + Dennis Johnson]
both just played guard.
Pau Gasol could run motion off with no problem.
Jordan & the Bulls never had a true point.
These are just examples.

(10) In LD’s offense will Josh, Al, & Marv be
interchangeable?
To a certain extent – yes (and Joe as well)
I’m most excited about Joe posting or catching
the ball in the paint w/o having to pound the
ball for 20 seconds. Just catch & Shoot.

(11) Will catch & Shoot be a blessing?
Yes.

(12) Who for?
In order:
Marv, Josh, Joe, Al, Zaza, & everyone else
not named Teaguer or Jamal.

~~~> Finally – for AJ
I agree about the 3 guard line-up.
Rebounding would be a problem.
I made a fundamental mistake and did
not qualify that would be our best
offensive line-up.
I do appreciate the civil manner in which you
brought the facts to my attn.
Thanks.

*SteveW – Talk X’s & O’s but I’m tired of discussing Josh.

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SteveW

I read your 12:54 AM again.
You sir, are a smart ass.
I don’t tolerate rude behavior.

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Matter of fact, start with that clip, and watch the remaining clips of that game in the 2nd half. That was a GREAT game, and intense as hell.

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The problem with playing Josh at the 3 is he can’t shoot and he can’t dribble very well. If a perimeter oriented player isn’t a good shooter then you better be able to dribble well enough to get by a defender to get to the hole. If a SF can do neither, then his team is basically playing 4 on 5. We all know Josh isn’t a good dribbler. How many times has Josh gotten a rebound and began dribbling upcourt and your first reaction is, “Give up the ball!” And that’s in the open court. He can barely dribble in the open court let alone in a half court situation where the space is so limited.

The remaining issue is, although Josh’s skills aren’t ideal for a SF, is he a better 3 than Marvin? Skill wise, I say no. I’m as frustrated with Marvin as anyone else. I’ve always felt that offering Marvin that extension wasn’t very smart. At that point, I felt like we could get some good value for him in a trade b/c I’m sure other teams still felt good about his potential. I highly doubt that is still the case.

Having said that, skillwise, Marvin is a better SF than Josh. Josh can’t shoot and Marvin’s best offensive skill is his ability to hit a mid range jumpshot and even take it out to the 3 pt shot. As far as dribbling goes, Marvin has a much tighter handle than Josh. At no point when Marvin is dribbling do I expect for him to turn it over or getting stripped like I do with Josh. The major concern with Marvin is effort. Marvin seems like he just doesn’t care which is the complete opposite to Josh who tends to get too emotional at times. But from a skills standpoint, for better or worse, Marvin is the better offensive option at the 3. Defensively, I don’t feel like there’s a big difference between the two and in some respects, I’d favor Josh b/c of his athleticism and effort

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northcyde,

What about a Teague (or Bibby)/Mo/JJ/Josh/Al starting lineup? That way you get to bring Jamal off the bench as the scorer, and Marvin also goes to the bench?

For what its worth, I think Mo Evans does a decent job guarding SGs, and with more consistent minutes, I think he would play better.

As for Sy, sure the guy has potential. But I would have preferred to see the Hawks spend some money and offer Matt Barnes (a legit backup SF who can play defense)a contract.

But as is usually the case with the ASG, a lot of our discussions are spent on who they did NOT get…

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What you so called experts don’t understand is, you DO NOT have to be a great 3 pt shooter to start at SF.. I don’t know where y’all got that from. Smoove is 10 times better than Marvin in every area, You know Marvin can’t shoot either so. Also it’s just funny how everyone on here seems to think they are experts, because they are fans and have watched hundreds of games. Newsflash none of you are. Just stating your opinions, not facts..

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LEA – some folks won’t be happy until Marvin is gone and we have someone better than Dwight at center. Will it happen? You can give your humble opinion. I see no problem in going big for some match-ups. Does it matter if Josh can’t shoot 3’s or even 2’s from farther than 12 feet? Not really. Does it matter that he’s awkward dribbling to the bucket? Not really. It all comes down to effective play calling and movement by the PG under the direction of LD. The ISO game left us so stagnant and easy to guard. It left Horford and Josh frustrated where they let down on D. It let defenses tear Joe and Jamal apart. We need change. All this banter is an outlet of “experts” voicing their opinion. By this time in the summer with nothing going on folks are gonna sound crazy. Just let them banter. It all comes down to LD’s decision and how his players respond. What I take from all this is:

There’s enough banter to justify Josh can play both positions adequately

Marvin has no niche, LD must help him find one or find him a home

Josh and Al still want help on the block and would appreciate a stronger perimeter defense. Will ASG make a trade?

Collins must come in ready

Sy is our first Manu or Parker type pick in our dreams at night. Hopefully it’ll become reality on the court and not just in the blog.

This team can win if they maximize their potential, fans are tired of waiting or at the least restless and demanding excellence.

Take all this as IMHO.

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WW – I agree. Kid just hasn’t gotten a chance to show his skills. Many would argue, but he’s lost out there waiting for his chance after the other 4 are done. How can you really get in the flow of the game when randomly put on the spot?

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Maybe LD will actually ride a player when they get hot. Woodson always tended to sit guys or go away from them once they actually got going. Never made sense.

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Can we get a sound off……..
When you look at this team, do you see the glass half full or half empty?

Half Empty for me.

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You know what Terrell, that one move to put Marvin on the bench might make this a better team for LD to work with.
Marvin is limited in so many ways and I can’t understand why. He came into the league as the most athletic player in that draft. What have we seen: a jump shooter who did develop a 3 pt shot, but has only looked good doing it comfortably for one year. My main concern: at this point in his career, how can he be ranked the 30th most efficient SF?
I don’t think Marvin likes contact and doesn’t attack the rim. What is he doing in his summers at Chapel Hill? Throwing up a bunch of jumpers IMO and not attacking said rim.
My concern with this roster is who guards who on the Heat? I don’t see a good matchup on the perimeter. You move E#2 to the 3, and you have JC1 and Teague to try and stop DWade, and leaves E#2 to stop LeBron….bad scenario.

We are going to need a good zone.

Say no to Smoove at the 3….simple decision. Our problem is we have 2 PFs playing the backline and won’t stop the elite teams with 2 PFs. Zaza and Collins are not enough.

I also don’t see why Powell would sign here; where does he see himself getting minutes? How about JC2? What kind of clock can he get if LD doesnt’ move E#2 to the 3?

Point is, easy to justify bringing Marvin off the bench. Easy to put Teague at the point. He however is the key to the success of this team.

Not easy to see a frontline of Smoove/Al/Zaza/….we aren’t getting alot done with that lineup.

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KevinM,

It’s all about matchups, so you’re right. But the Heat are not that strong at PG and Center, and I think Josh will do a decent job on Bosh. Wade and JJ will be close, so I think it comes down to LeBron and Marvin.

Thats one reason I was pushing for the signing of Matt Barnes, because him and Marvin would have been a very good tag team at SF.

Fundamanetals,

Woody was not flexible enough with his rotations, substitutions and defensive strategy. So if there is anything LD learned from Woody, it should be some things NOT to do.

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Horford said we did not do well in playoffs last year because we were very individualistic. Pretty much saying Woody’s offensive plan sucked and didn’t facilitate anything..

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I think Pape Sy has gotten enough press for one offseason. The only advantage I see having him here is to have someone JC2 can talk to on the bench and get used to life in the NBA.
If we are going to dress 13, Sy probably doesn’t have much of a chance to get Mario West 0:04 time at the end of halves.
We continue as a franchise to limit our options and not fulfill our needs.
Ask the entire league if we don’t need help in the post or depth at the lead position? There are 2 slots left for a 15 man roster.

And again, Marvin’s 30 SF ranking justifies his move to the bench if he doesn’t get off to a 12ppg/6rpg start. And yes, Marvin has to be the defender on LeBron.
For a team who is considered the 4th best in the East, it seems like we have so few options after the 1st option. Kinda sounds like Woody’s offense huh?

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“Perhaps the “slight chance” that we will see Pape Sy is tied to the fact that his contract would be in the $500-600,000 range”

You’re not taking into account his buyout, which would also be around $500,000. For a team that refuses to go over the luxury tax for Shaq and would rather pocket $3 million than pay $500,000 to the best player in the 2nd round, I have a hard time seeing the DASG paying a foreign team a buyout, as much as I’d like to see Sy here this season.

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“These players are skilled enough to play any position. What is Lebron a 1 or 2 or 3? Same with Kobe. Garnett a 2 or 3 . It’s about how you are coached.”

Actually, it’s about maximizing a guy’s talent. Yeah, if an NBA player played a pickup game with everyone on this blog, he could play whatever position he wanted and smoke all of us. But when you go up against other players of the same caliber, you have to play to your strengths. Smoove has proven he’s strongest near the basket. Pulling him away from the basket for any reason doesn’t make him ineffective, but it will make him less effective. The reason coaches like Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich achieve so much success is because they are able to put their players in position to maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

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“Atlanta doesn’t risk a lot playing poker with Sy, I think it’s much less risky than paying just 1 guy 120 M$ over 6 years…”

Wow, now we got people rubbing it in from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean.

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‘Veratility’ = ‘versatility’

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And Kevin M, we dont have to use the same starting 5 in every game. Woody’s gone, remember?

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@Terrel – “Funny how “Zaza and Collins are not enough”, but OLDneal, Boone, Elson, etc…, are the saviors at center. lol!”

Great Point!

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LEA

What you so called experts don’t understand is, you DO NOT have to be a great 3 pt shooter to start at SF.. I don’t know where y’all got that from. Smoove is 10 times better than Marvin in every area, You know Marvin can’t shoot either so. Also it’s just funny how everyone on here seems to think they are experts, because they are fans and have watched hundreds of games. Newsflash none of you are. Just stating your opinions, not facts..

**********************

I’m kind of a confident fan in what I talk about though. I think some of the others on here are too. I don’t know about the others, but I’ve watched THOUSANDS of basketball games ( both pro and college ). I research stuff. And I have enough confidence in what I talk about, to place a $100 bet that I know more about the NBA than 75% of these writers/bloggers who never set foot on a basketball court. You can always tell who knows what they’re talking about, and who doesn’t.

That’s why people really need to give Michael Cunningham props on here. The dude not only knows what he’s talking about, he’ll take an extra effort to see if the actual numbers will back up what he is talking about. To me, he’s head and shoulders above what the legendary Sekou Smith was on here. And Sekou was good. But he’s not nearly as thorough as MC is.

That’s why MC just didn’t automatically drink the kool aid around here, and blame Mike Woodson for every little problem the Hawks had last year. He took time out to actually WATCH the team as a whole, from the coaches on down. While coaching may have been a problem, he sees the deficiencies that these players have too. And he’s proven that with actual numbers. The same goes with ISO-JOE. He actually took the time to see if it was as horrible as people said it was, or if ISO-JOE did have its merits.

And even though people keep talking about offense . . offense . . offense around here, he has time and again told the blog that the Hawks just didn’t give the type of effort on DEFENSE on a nightly basis. Not even in practice at times. And he is right on the money with that.

That man gets major props from me.

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Play Smoove at SF, and say goodbye to the 15 – 17 ppg scoring Smoove. At SF, he’ll average 11 – 14 ppg, and simply be a role player on offense. So you better be sure that Horford can get you 20 ppg, or Zaza can get you 12+ ppg. And you better be sure that Smoove can stop people from scoring on the outside.

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If Marvin can get us 12-14 ppg at sf, why would we even consider moving Josh there? Just because Horford says he likes to play pf, doesn’t mean we are going to move Josh to sf and START Al at the 4. He’ll get his min at pf this with Woody out of the picture. Like I said before, Al and Zaza played well together last year, but old stubborn but still would’nt play em together that much. I’m sure Drew saw the same thing that I did.

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Priz and who?

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bueno,vamos a ver;quien jugara de pivot,zaza?no tiene fisico para defender los alley-ops.collins?ni hablar…dejemos la posicion de pivot,de alero josh smith pierde eficacia…no se que pretende LD pero yo no veo claro…a no ser que medie un traspaso.pero con lo que tenemos,solo le pido a LD que saque de inicio a joe johnson como alero,teague de base,crawford de escolta…lo demas es discutible.y si hay algun traspaso que sean de marvin y bibby,en eso coincidimos casi todos.que Dios nos ayude,atentamente,un apasionado de los atlanta hawks!!!

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