Atlanta Hawks: No Shaq . . . now what?
With Shaq off to Boston here’s a quick epilogue as it relates to the Hawks:
I’ve been told that Atlanta wouldn’t budge on giving Shaq a starting nod over Al, who is after all still only 24-years old and an All-Star. Shaq believes he will get the starting nod over Jermaine O’Neal in Boston as Kendrick Perkins rehabs from his knee injury.
Atlanta also wasn’t willing to pay Shaq more than the minimum and that was a sticking point for him. He didn’t want to sign for the minimum when the Hawks had their bi-annual and mid-level exceptions available because of the perception that would create–as in the Hawks could have paid him more but didn’t. That’s not the case with Boston, which had neither of those exceptions and so could only give him the minimum.
The big guy still has his pride.
The Hawks thought Shaq could help them and would be a good risk at the minimum salary despite his history of negatively effecting locker rooms and tending not to respect coaches who aren’t Phil Jackson or Pat Riley. It could have been a potential headache for L.D., who already has a lot to deal with in his first gig as a head coach.
So that’s that. . . .
The Hawks still are in the market for a center (I’ve still heard nothing to indicate they are seeking a wing) and they have veterans Francisco Elson, Brian Skinner and Josh Boone on their radar. Not so much Kwame Brown, who is thought to still be seeking a deal for more than the vet minimum.
Beyond those options, I also could see the Hawks waiting to see if any centers shake free as teams buy out vets when training camps open. They also might consider bringing some young center prospects to camp and give them a month to earn the 13th roster spot. There is some interest in Garrett Siler but he’s got a lot to prove after a bad showing at Summer League.
There’s still about two months until camp opens so there’s still time for moves to be made. But that 13th roster spot will remain open for now.
– Hawks assistant GM Dave Pendergraft has emerged as an early candidate to become Denver’s top basketball executive. Pendergraft also is one of several candidates for Phoenix’s GM job.
The Nuggets let go of VP of basketball ops Mark Warkentein earlier this week.
MC
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613 comments Add your comment
Macaroni Tony
August 7th, 2010
7:11 pm
Fresh
thank you for that link.
truthspitter
August 7th, 2010
7:39 pm
I hope the rotoworld BS is true, but it really does not make sense as to why they passed on Shaq, even though I don’t like him, if that was true. Zaza is a garbage defender and so is Collins. The Hawks were one of the best offensive squads last year, they need defense in the paint and Zaza does not help
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
7:41 pm
I can you hope bs be true and be a truthspitter.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
7:42 pm
How can you hope bs be true and be a truthspitter?
truthspitter
August 7th, 2010
7:44 pm
Rondo: maybe you should have stayed in school, learn how to spell, but I get the point. It sounds like BS rather its true or not because Zaza, Powell, nor Collins are worthy of being a starter or major backup. So, Drew is planning on one of those 3 playing major minutes which is BS
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
7:47 pm
Here is the original link to that story. It has a little more than the link that was posted
Horford @ PF
Drew is trying to put his stamp on this team. If Zaza is going to be a starter again, he better be ready to really step up to the plate. The article doesn’t necessarily say that he’ll start, but that’s the implication.
This also means more Smoove at SF . . which some people have been asking for years, and others think it’s a recipe for disaster. The Smoove at SF is what worries me, for obvious reasons. We’ll see what comes of this though. It doesn’t hurt to experiment with this during the preseason.
If Smoove does play more SF, I want him to become a passing playmaker, than trying to up his scoring. I think he has a better shot at averaging 5+ assist a game, than he does averaging 18+ ppg.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
7:50 pm
Truthspitter . . . it does make you wonder. If this is the plan, why not secure another legit center? And wouldn’t the obvious move to be to start Shaq ahead of Zaza?
LOL . . . I give up trying to rationalize what these guys are doing this offseason. I’m just glad football season is almost here. I’ll worry about this in October.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
7:57 pm
Who is a better canidate than powell,za za or collins.Shaq-No Siler-No Boone-No
One thing i have noticed about za za this off season is that he is doing all he can to get tougher.Hes taking up boxing working on his footwork and man its going to pay-off.Za Za and Powell will play with much more heart next season because they both have something to prove.I would rather have players like that on my team rather than a bunch of has-beens or wannabes.Hard work pays off you will see the difference next season.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
8:06 pm
Rondo . . I’m going to tell you like I tell everybody else. If Zaza averaged 12 pts – 7 rebs and shot 57% FG, in just 23 minutes of play, people would hype up Zaza like he’s the best backup center in the league.
To say that Shaq wouldn’t be a better candidate than Zaza, Powell, or Collins, is straight up stupidity. I hate to word it like that, but that’s what it is.
I don’t care if people don’t like Shaq personally or not. You cannot deny that kind of production, and still think that the dude is garbage. Those numbers are better than what Zaza, Powell, and Collins can do . . . combined.
Just stop being silly, and dissing Shaq like he’s garbage. He’s only garbage compared to what Shaq used to be. But he’s still better than 75% of the centers in the NBA.
LOL . . if this report is true, it’s even MORE mind boggling as to why the ASG didn’t pull the trigger to bring Shaq in. This would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this was a “money” issue, and not a “fit” issue.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
8:11 pm
One thing i like about Perkins and Wallace was that they enjoyed accepting their roles for the C’s and could step it up on any given night.Can Shaq and Jermaine Oneal bring what those guys brought on the court.NO! Did Shaq help the suns. NO! Did Shaq help the Cavs. NO! Will Shaq help the C’s. NO!Have Jermaine helped any of the 20 teams he has been on. NO! Are there any bigs out there that can take the hawks to the title? NO! Just look at the starting centers for team USA.The center position is dead in the nba.D.Howard and Amare is more like Ralf Sampson and Otis Thorpe than Olajuwan or Ewing. Now Good Night to one and all.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
8:23 pm
Fresh
Thanks for posting the link, I didn’t know how to do that from my Blackberry Phone.
I also posted the newz on Blu-Ray’s Blog.
My thing is what Grand-Daddy was summizing – sp all year re: Josh Smith @ SF:
G-Daddy says:
Don’t play the numbers, 5 – 4 – 3 … He says: Play your best Basketball Players to your system. If Josh plays SF, he can still take his offense to the paint and shy away from jumpers. Why? Because he is a Basketball Player!
On defense, if your scheme is man to man? Then assign the guarders onto the offenders based on the match ups.
Looks like Drew is saying: I have been watching three center start all games glued to the bench, and – How did that work for ya?
Meanwhile, two PF’s (size-wise) are starþing all the games and getting over-sized and out-played in the play-offs two years straight!
Hubie Brown and all the pundits said we were too small up front to compete with
The Magic and Cavs. So, Drew figures why keep doing the same thing? It ain’t working.
Maybe this will force the ASG to up-grade the Center position. Because, now they look like a cheap ass and NOT the Coach. Drew is just playing the hand he was dealt – UNLIKE Woodson. So, if this don’t work? The GM will be forced to trade one of the starter caliber PF’s in exchange for a superior Center or PG! Now, all eyes on ASG! Build your Effin’ Roster and loosen them purse strings!
Drew has been sitting on this bench for 6 years watching INSANITY and he ain’t going out like a PUNK!
Now, Marvin has to sit and watch and find the fire in his Belly-Butt! His Butt is so big? I can’t tell if he is coming or going! If it is glued to the bench? Now we know!
Drew is putting players in their best position to succeed!
How about that – For CHANGE you can BILEIVE in?
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
8:27 pm
northcyde-One last thing. The Hawks signing Shaq would have been a PR move. Yes Shaq would have put butts in seats but it would have killed team chemistry. Shaq game just feel down to nothing after he won the championship in Miami. No top center in nba history game went down like shaqs did. Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Sabonis, Divac etc. were all servicable big men late in their 30’s. Shaq just doesn’t have it anymore.Shaq would have been a circus act for the hawks not a title contender move.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
8:38 pm
Also … Why are we Fan – Bloggers getting Hawks newz from rotoworld?
Why doesn’t the ASKG talk directly to their Fan-Base, if they depend on us to buy the tickets?
MC shoulda’ been the lead on this story!
I’m just sayin’!
Makes me wanna’ call the Limo round front and step off to the city and worry about me instead of the Hawks roster. As a matter of fact, that’s exactly what
drmaryb is about to do!
Now, where are my Prada Pumps & Purse?
One thing is for sure, ASKG can do them – I’m gone do me!
Nite-Nite fellas!
Najeh Davenpoop
August 7th, 2010
8:39 pm
For argument’s sake, let’s forget about Josh’s lack of lateral quickness which already limits him at SF and pretend he can play that position defensively. If Smoove moves to SF and Teague starts, that leaves one person on the floor who can knock down 3’s and two people on the floor who can hit mid-range jumpers with consistency. I don’t see how floor spacing would work in that situation. If Bibby starts, that’s one more guy who can stretch the floor, but then you severely decrease the ability to break down the defense and create easy shots.
To be honest, if Al moves to PF, I’d rather see Josh move to C over seeing someone from the poo-poo platter of Zaza, Collins, and Powell move into the starting lineup. And yes, I realize Josh is nowhere near big enough or strong enough to play C.
I’ll echo what the Rotoworld analysis said: “if they really want Horford at PF we’re not sure why they passed on Shaquille O’Neal.”
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
8:47 pm
They passed on the Big Unreliable because he can’t play the center position for an entire season.He’s a back-up not a starter.
O'Brien
August 7th, 2010
8:53 pm
Rondo,
Jamal Crawford played 10 years without helping a team get to the playoffs. And they said he was a malcontent in Golden State. But look what he did for the Hawks?
As for Shaq playing backup center for the entire season, we dont need him for the entire season. We need him for certain teams more than others. So we would have to rest him like Phoenix did, like Spurs do with Duncan, to make sure he is fresh for the playoffs.
As for Horford at PF, I think Shaq at center and Horford at PF would have been an awesome combination.
But thats water under the bridge.
Najeh Davenpoop
August 7th, 2010
8:54 pm
“No top center in nba history game went down like shaqs did. Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Sabonis, Divac etc. were all servicable big men late in their 30’s. ”
Shaq at age 37-38 (this past season): 12 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 56% shooting, 1.2 bpg, 53 games played
Ewing at age 37: 15 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 47% shooting, 1.4 bpg, 62 games played
Ewing at age 38: 9.6 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 43% shooting, 1.2 bpg, 79 games played
Kareem at age 37: 22 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 60% shooting, 2.1 bpg, 79 games played
Wilt at age 37: retired
Malone (I’m assuming you mean Moses, since Karl didn’t play center) at age 37: 4.5 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 31% shooting, 0.7 bpg, 11 games played
Hakeem at age 37: 10.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 46% shooting, 1.6 bpg, 44 games played
David Robinson at age 37: 8.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 47% shooting, 1.7 bpg, 64 games played
Sabonis at age 38 (he didn’t play at age 37): 6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 48% shooting, 0.8 bpg, 78 games played
Divac at age 37: retired
The only guy on that list who significantly outperformed Shaq at the same age was Kareem. All those other guys saw their games decline at age 37, many to the point where they couldn’t contribute any more at all. Shaq is not the player he used to be, but he hasn’t declined any worse than other comparable centers, and he is still fully capable of filling a role for a good team.
Ken Strickland
August 7th, 2010
8:55 pm
Usually, your SF’s are your outside scorers and your PF’s are your inside scorers. With Horford’s ability to score outside, it wouldn’t be a major problem to play Smoove at SF. He’d certainly have a major advantage over other SF in the post, and Horford would be effective whether outside or on the block.
With the motion OFF, which uses movement and a picks, the purpose is to force switches, create mismatches or gain separation from the defender. Since everyone sets picks, and everyone is in motion, the traditional idea of PF, SF, PG, SG or C position in this OFF will be skewed.
NORTHCYDE-As a first time HC, suppose LDrew didn’t want Shaq on the team because:
1-he didn’t want the potential headache that could arise if he didn’t give Shaq what he wanted.
2-if Drew started Horford over Shaq and the team go off to a slow start, do you really think Shaq wouldn’t start making an issue of him not starting?
3-LDrew might have decided Shaq wouldn’t be a good fit in his motion OFF, and the teams commitment to a fast breaking OFF.
4-LDrew isn’t obsessed with the idea of the Hawks needing Shaq, or any one player, to stop or contain DHoward.
5-LDrew trusts his DEF assistant to design a DEF strategy and system that will allow THE TEAM to contain dominant centers using a team DEF concept.
6-LDrew feels his players have the speed, quickness, athleticism and versatility to make the team DEF concept work.
O'Brien
August 7th, 2010
8:56 pm
Najeh, Northcyde,
I dont think Horford at PF means moving Josh to SF. What that means, is more minutes for ZaZa at Center, and when Josh goes to the bench, Horford will get backup PF minutes.
I can see a breakdown like this.
C – Horford (28), ZaZa (20)
PF – Josh (36) Horford (8), Powell (4)
So Josh will not see SF…
Najeh Davenpoop
August 7th, 2010
9:00 pm
And also, considering how starved for toughness this Hawks team is, Shaq would have had a huge impact on Smoove and particularly Horford as far as showing them how to hold their ground in the post. Both of those guys have played their entire careers without any real veteran leader to show them the ropes when it comes to these things.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:01 pm
Jamal Crawford starter No
Jamal Crawford off-bench Sixth Man Of The Year Award
Shaq starter for C’s No.
Shaq off-bench for C’s= ok move in a back-up role
If shaq was a hawk = circus act/pr move/disfunctional locker-room/35 win team/loosers
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:27 pm
Hey Stat Nerd. Stats don’t tell the whole story.Look at how many players have better carreer stats than Magic Johnson or Dominique does that translate to those guys being better players.NO.Shaq would have been to the hawks what he was to Suns.No playoff appearence.You can’t rely on Shaq to carry or teach other players he never has played the vet role in any locker-room he has been in.Shaq to the C’s make sense.Shaq to the Hawks would have been a disaster.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:33 pm
Shaq hasn’t been tough since the 90’s when he was breaking down rims.Usher and Tyler Perry can teach the Hawks more toughness than The Big Sissy Shaq could have.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
9:36 pm
Rondo . . what team chemistry? The chemistry that these guys showed during the playoffs last year? Just stop with the “chemistry” stuff. A team with “chemistry” does not get ripped like they did in the playoffs. Everybody melted down . . the coaches . . the players . . everybody. Whatever chemistry we had by playoff time, it was like having kool aid without sugar in it.
No top center in nba history game went down like shaqs did. Ewing, Kareem, Wilt, Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Sabonis, Divac etc. were all servicable big men late in their 30’s.
LOL . . what NBA did YOU watch?
PATRICK EWING: ( age 37 ) – 15 ppg – 9.4 rebs – 1.4 blks – 47% FG
KAREEM: ( age 37 ) – 22 ppg – 7.9 rebs – 2.1 blks – 60% FG
WILT: ( age 36 ) – 13.2 ppg – 18.6 rebs – ( no telling how many blks, but they weren’t recorded ) – 73% FG
MOSES MALONE: ( age 37 ) – 5.3 ppg – 4.1 rebs – 0.3 blks – 44% FG
HAKEEM: ( age 37 ) – 10.3 ppg – 6.2 rebs – 1.6 blks – 46% FG
ROBINSON: ( age 37 ) – 8.5 ppg – 7.9 rebs – 1.7 blks – 47% FG
SABONIS: ( age 36 ) – 10.1 ppg – 5.4 rebs – 1.0 blks – 47% FG
DIVAC: ( age 36 ) – 2.3 ppg – 2.1 rebs – 0.1 blks – 42% FG
SHAQ: ( age 37 ) – 12 ppg – 6.7 rebs – 1.2 blks – 57% FG
((( note: The guys I listed as age 36, were playing in their final season in the league. )))
*************************
( Each player’s PER in those years )
Kareem: 22.9
Wilt: 19.1
Sabonis: 18.4
Shaq: 17.9
Robinson: 17.8
Ewing: 16.9
Olajuwon: 16.7
Divac: 10.5
So by this list, the only guys who were head and shoulders over Shaq around age 37, were Wilt and Kareem. And when you look at the PER of each player, Shaq is 4th on that list, while Divac’s PER is even lower than Zaza’s last year.
Just stop homie.
Stop with the lame excuses about Shaq not being productive or garbage. If the Hawks are indeed about to move Al Horford to PF, the ASG royally (( bleeped )) up by not adding Shaq to help bolster the frontline.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:40 pm
Northcyde look at my post at 9:27 p.m.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
9:46 pm
LOL . . I see Najeh was doing the exact same thing I was doing.
Rondo . . Shaq made 3rd team ALL-NBA and won the MVP at the All-Star game while with the Suns in 2008 – 09. The Suns problem is that Amare missed 29 games that year, and the Phoenix bench was weak as hell.
And the only thing that Nique did better than Magic, was score the basketball. He did NOTHING else better than Magic.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:49 pm
Like I said all the guys I named were servicable Shaq ain’t.Half of the guys i named were helping their teams massively with deep runs in the playoffs or championship titles late in their 30’s.Shaq doesn’t have the same appeal to team chemistry as David Robinson, Hakeem, Jabar, or Divac and sabonis.Those guys were role players late in their carreer and played it well. Will Shaq play his role with the C’s.I doubt it judging on how he has bumbed out with past teams.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
9:51 pm
Rondo . . how about watching some NBA games. You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Even with the Cavs last year, Mo Williams was a much bigger problem in Cleveland, than Shaq was. The Cavs were 40 – 13 with Shaq in the lineup. Even in the playoffs, it was the meltdown of Lebron that was the single most important thing to cause the Cavs to lose that series, not Shaq.
You’re simply a “Shaq hater”. You guys will blatantly overlook things, just to say that he’s garbage because he’s not the “old Shaq”. But in the same breath, not even admit that the dude is still better than 75% of the centers in this league, including the big men we have on our bench.
northcyde
August 7th, 2010
9:52 pm
Not even worth arguing. People will simply believe what they want to believe, even if tangible evidence is staring them right in the face.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:54 pm
I wasn’t comparing Magic to Dominique but my point was made.And when Amere went down Shaq didn’t have enough gas to carry the Suns even though he was voted by the fans to be an all-star.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
9:59 pm
I don’t hate Shaq I just don’t like him.Better than 75% of nba centers in todays nba ain’t saying much in a centerless nba.Just look at Team USA’s centers on past teams to present.
Grandad
August 7th, 2010
10:03 pm
Thank you Mary Ellen.
Najeh Davenpoop
August 7th, 2010
10:26 pm
Step 1: make clearly biased statement unsupported by facts
Step 2: get thoroughly disproven by facts
Step 3: throw insults at the people who just proved you wrong
Congratulations Rondo, you have gotten through the first 3 steps of Truth-Serum’s School for Blog Obnoxiousness. All that’s left is for you to start posting the same sh-t under 5000 different screen names. I don’t know what Shaq did to you, but nothing you have posted is supported by facts.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
10:29 pm
Rondo
If you can’t hang with them BIG DOGS – Stay on the porch!
Najeh & NorthCyde just gave you a simultaneous WEDGIE,
and now you are wearing a THONG!
Say Uncle … Give it up … Throw in the towel …. Blow the Whistle.
Take your pick!
Najeh Davenpoop
August 7th, 2010
10:33 pm
“I can see a breakdown like this.
C – Horford (28), ZaZa (20)
PF – Josh (36) Horford (8), Powell (4)”
That makes sense, although it goes back to the point the Rotoworld analyst made, which is that if the Hawks intended to play Horford at PF for a significant amount of time, they should have gotten someone better than Zaza to play those 20 backup minutes at center. Once again, the DASG shows that they are a disorganized group with no plan and no synchronization between the various levels of management from the top down.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
10:35 pm
Grand-Daddy
I tried to tell em’ – but, they hard headed! That makes a soft behind.
Rondo
Go back to sleep – baby, you tired. You will see clearly in the morning.
But, we still love you. (Bless his heart.). He just slooow …
atownhawk23 aka Lets go Bucks and Thunder
August 7th, 2010
10:36 pm
go thuder jennind sexy
Macaroni Tony
August 7th, 2010
10:36 pm
By this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtRDJRyoTOc&feature=related all I wish for is that Larry Drew should have been the Hawks head coach long time ago. The way that he teaches and his calmness will take our team mentally to a new level. Another thing is that he’s not afraid to play rookies, more of the roster, and change the line up according to the team that we would be facing.
atownhawk23 aka Lets go Bucks and Thunder
August 7th, 2010
10:36 pm
go thunder Jennings sexy
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
10:40 pm
Calling you a stat nerd can’t compare to what that sick truth-serum did to this blogg.Stats don’t equal facts kid.I post nothing but facts son you rely on stats.Are you the ultimate judge on this blogg, just if someone disagrees with you don’t compare them to T.S.All coments on this blogg comes from a biased approach. I like Iverson or T-Mac to the hawks do you agree with me that they would be good fits.No.Well i guess that makes you obnoxious from my point of veiw.
The Truth
August 7th, 2010
10:46 pm
Since the source of
this story (Horford logging more PF minutes) can’t be verified on Fox Sports, consider it to be bogus until proven otherwise. Maybe some sport-writer eavesdropped in on our conversations and fabricated a story. Perhaps the reason this would be a clueless move is because the story is questionable.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
10:47 pm
Good doctor all northcyde and najeh proved is that they are fanatics.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
10:57 pm
Rondo
They proved a point!
But, it’s OK if you don’t buy in, that certainly is your prerogative.
And, the beat goes on … and on …. and on …
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
11:04 pm
Fox Sports is NOT the Bible, Sir. Far, far, far from it! I blocked that station on my satellite receiver.
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
11:05 pm
I have a homework assignment just for you drmaryb. I know its not b-ball related but it may reach your heart. Read these scriptures.
1 John 2: 15-17
2 Timothy 3: 1-5
1 John 5: 19
Revelation 21: 3,4
Psalms 37: 9,29,34
Have a good night good doctor.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
11:12 pm
O’brien
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the article did say specifically,
Josh to play some at SF and Marvin to da’ bench.
O'Brien
August 7th, 2010
11:15 pm
Rondo,
I agree that we should not make Shaq the starter (if the Hawks had signed him).
But as a reserve playing 20 mpg backing up Horford, I think Shaq would have helped. Nobody is asking him to carry us. We just need some help in the post, especially in the playoffs when the game becomes halfcourt.
Let me ask you this. When we lost to Orlando by 101 points combined in the playoffs, do you think Shaq would have made a positive difference?
Not saying we would have won the series, not saying we would have won a game. But do you think the games would have been closer if we had Shaq coming off the bench?
O'Brien
August 7th, 2010
11:18 pm
drmaryb,
I think the article did say Josh to play some SF, and Marvin to the bench. But that was the writer’s opinion. Drew did not say that.
All Drew said was that Al would get more minutes at PF.
drmaryb (*_*)
August 7th, 2010
11:19 pm
Rondo
I was just reading my lesson for tomorrow services. I attend
5 meetings per week. And, I will be happy to read the home work you gave me as well. I will do it and report back to you what I learned.
Thank You for the love. You are a really good man. And, yes you do
have a right to stand your ground and defend your position.
Even in disagreement, there is love and respect.
-smiles-
Rondo
August 7th, 2010
11:20 pm
O’brien no not really because the hawks were lousy on perimeter defense. So in my opinion Shaq would probably had made a slight difference in the post but the hawks would have had the same results.Well the hawks may have won game 4 and thats probably it.