Atlanta Hawks: Getaway day
There will be a blog hiatus for a couple weeks while I get away for some me time. There’s a chance I might drop in with a post if anything interesting happens with the Hawks but don’t count on that (either something interesting happening or me dropping in). Meanwhile the beat will be in the capable hands of Ken S., who will chronicle the Hawks’ attempts to pluck a center from the bargain bin.
I suspect not much will have changed with my blog people when I return. Truth-Serum will still be using his multiple identities to agree with himself that Al is a terrible defensive center. JeJe will continue to rip ASG for not letting J.J. walk and using all that cap space to SIGN FREAKIN’ LEBRON. And all of you will wonder how in the heck this squad is supposed to make a move in the East with basically the same guys suiting up.
Be easy until I get back, blog people. Remember, it’s all love and and it’s just basketball . . .
MC
(Note: Commenting is closed until Michael returns Aug. 2)
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1,155 comments Add your comment
GeeMack
July 20th, 2010
12:01 pm
macaroni tony
I we could get Marvin to play like that 62 out 82 games we would be very good. Lol.
drmaryb
July 20th, 2010
12:03 pm
Grand-Daddy
What’s up Baby? Well, nothing happened after all the scouting and suggestions we all made.
especially you, looking for hidden gem stones.
Great Job there!
(*_*)
Grandad
July 20th, 2010
12:07 pm
Ken Strickland:
Once again – nailed it.
I reckon Marv Will have a career year [offense]
in LD’s system. Ain’t it great *per Mary Ellen:
to actually have a system, a Coach with an
actual philosophy.
LD’s system can integrate J&A + Marv all @
the same time due to interchangeable positions.
Thats why it’s imperitive to bring in system specific
Players.
*Also why I think Luke Jackson has a good chance to
make the team.
GeeMack
July 20th, 2010
12:08 pm
vava74 & Ken
I’m glad we don’t make the same excuses for Josh that we do for Marvin. The Hawks would really be bad in that case.
GeeMack
July 20th, 2010
12:15 pm
LBJ, CB1, D-Wade, & Big Z just moved into our division, the entire Hawks team need to step every aspect of their game up.
doc
July 20th, 2010
12:25 pm
yeah truth,better stay close to your signature name dude, someone woill steal it quick if you blink. you might not believe it but someone even tried to this steal lowly old man’s a few years back. people are pretty sick around here sometimes.
it is all good and all in suffering as hawks fans. i hope you dont have to wait as long as i have for the next nba championship. it is going on 53 years since i as a fan saw them win one. whether you or anyone else wants to admit it we are all in this together. heh heh ain’t swimming in this soup fun?
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
12:26 pm
“I thought he was better than this actually. But come to think of it, he did have flashes in which he looked great defensively, and other days when he got lit up.”
This is the story of Marvin’s career. Two steps forward, two steps back. It’s all in his head.
“These MARVIN HATERS have a single minded focus on using last yrs performance as the sole representation of his entire career and his total capabilities. In Marvin’s 05-06 rookie yr, he averaged 8.5 PPG and 4.8RPG coming off the bench, and 13.1PPG and 5.3RPG in 06-07, his 1st yr as a starter. He continued his progression in 07-08 and averaged 14.8PPG and 5.7RPG, which is when the Hawks made their mid season trade for PG MBibby. It was Bibby’s acquisition that started Marvin’s annual progression into an annual regression.”
It’s not all about stats. In fact, efficiency-wise Marvin has been pretty much the same his whole career since his second season. Does it not concern you that a) he hasn’t improved at all in any area since his second season, b) he became less aggressive and worse from 3 after signing his long term contract, and c) he has regressed in rebounding, which is entirely independent of how many touches he gets?
I understand and agree with your tendency to lay most of the blame at Woody’s feet, but that doesn’t mean he’s the only problem. Smoove and Horford both played in the same iso-heavy, guard-centri system as Marvin and they still found a way to improve from season to season and impact the game in multiple ways, particularly without the ball in their hands.
You can coach up a guy’s skills but you can’t change his mentality. From day one, Marvin has been a timid, unaggressive player who isn’t resourceful enough to make an impact without the ball and isn’t efficient enough offensively to be a focal point of the offense. I don’t disagree that a new offensive system may do him some good, but I can’t realistically see Larry Drew changing Marvin into a completely different person who suddenly cares about improving his game and being more aggressive with and without the basketball.
Grandad
July 20th, 2010
12:27 pm
TS
You are correct – (I don’t know you) – personally.
-Therefore-
I should have said:
“I figure I have aggravated the heck outa’ you”
Responding to your 3 points:
(1) I assure you that I do. [blogging is a pastime]
(2) I don’t know you personally / but I know your personality as a blogger,
as you know mine. As we all do. *[the regulars] As we are a community.
(3) I’m having a most wonderful day & I wish you a nice day & a great life.
*John 3:16, [Greater Purpose]
northcyde
July 20th, 2010
12:30 pm
Question for the blog . . . what do you think the scoring averages and FG% of each Hawk will be in a typical game, if this is the team we basically roll with:
STARTERS
PG: Teague
G: Johnson
F: Marvin
PF: Smoove
C: Horford
BENCH
G: Jam. Crawford
G: Bibby
G: Jor. Crawford
G/F: Evans
F: Aminu/Hendrix
C: Zaza
C: Collins
That’s 12 guys. Of course, if you don’t think all 12 guys will contribute on a nightly basis, you only have to give the points and FG% to the people who you’ll think will contribute.
But on a typical night . . what will these guys score and shoot?
If you answer this, really think about it. Even add up your point totals at the end, to see if it’s realistic or unrealistic for the Hawks to score that little . . or score that much.
I’m just interested on what people initially think these players will do next season.
Grandad
July 20th, 2010
12:36 pm
Mary Ellen
Cavalcade of this & that goin’ on.
1st one thang then another.
Haven’t even had time to be on the blog much lately.
I’ll try to catch up in a day or three.
Snowballs [plural] rollin’ down the hill in July.
whew.
I’ll holler @ you soon.
G-dad.
Rod from College Park
July 20th, 2010
12:42 pm
Ken Strickland,
It’s amazing to me how you can call anybody a hater. The guy I so called hate on actually does not produce. The guys you hate on actually do produce. Mike Woodson, actually did what he said he was going to do. He improved the team, and got to the playoffs. Did you actually think that we would beat Orlando? The team actually got better after we got Bibby. I am a realist, not a dreamer.
Anything I state about Marvin is backed up by stats and basketball knowledge, not hate. How about this, since you want to look at his whole career, the great Marvin Williams playoff averages for his career are:
26.7mpg, 39%FG, 25%3P%, 4.2RPG, and 8.4ppg.
I think we all agree that the playoffs are when players are made, and we are supposed to support a guy who makes 8mill per, was the second pick in the draft, and continues to be talked about by management as the core of this team, but puts up such awful stats in the playoffs. It’s funny to me that you won’t give Bibby or Woodson any credit or outs, but you continue to think that if Marvin is put in some magic offensive sets, he will become Larry Bird. Let me let you in on a little secret, the easiest shot to make in basketball is a point blank layup or dunk, and a WIDE OPEN jumpshot, especially if you are supposed to be a shooter.
The Marvin defensive issue was brought up by another blogger, and once again Northcyde’s statistics prove that Marvin is not an above average defender, which I have been saying for the past two years. A good player, would not let Flip Murray or Jamal Crawford come in and effect their games so much. His minutes have actually stayed over 30mpg average. Horfords game improved, Joe’s stayed the same, Josh’s overall game has improved. So why is Marvin the only one who has regressed? To continue this crap about if Marvin plays in the triangle, or the princeton offense he will be Larry Bird, is speculation, and I don’t deal in that.
Once again, all you old heads need to get a hip hop dictionary and understand what the term hate is. If a guy is underperforming, and not doing his job, it’s not hating. That is called criticizing. I would be hating if I said Lebron or Kobe are terrible basketball players. That’s hating. Marvin is not a good basketball player. That is a fact.
Macaroni Tony
July 20th, 2010
12:45 pm
I just hope that MW deliver more of a offensive presence in this LD offense. I do want see different face on our team, and I hoped that we had a bucket full of money so that we could have a better bench this year. But JT0 and JC2 will have to have a strong season this year. I see a lot of Wade in JC2, and if you can get stronger then he would be a good steal in the draft.
Macaroni Tony
July 20th, 2010
12:50 pm
@ Ken, I wonder who MW will work out with this year. That three spot will be real important this year in my opinion, and I hope that we can trade Mo for a bigger back-up SF. Teams are getting stronger and I hope that we can get some more vets on this team. I think Earl Barron would be great.
Macaroni Tony
July 20th, 2010
12:55 pm
@ Northclyde
That looks good, but I would like to see more vets like an Earl Barron or Kurt Thomas, young teams like the Hawks need more vocal vets in the locker room. But I also read that Jason Collins will resign and if he does then we need him to be more productive on the offense end that 0.7 points and game will not cut it.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
1:04 pm
Joe: 24 ppg
Josh: 17 ppg
Al: 17 ppg
Jamal: 15 ppg
Marvin: 11 ppg
Teague: 11 ppg
Zaza: 6 ppg
Bibby: 4 ppg
Jordan: 3 ppg
That’s 108 ppg, which seems a little high, but whatever. I do think Joe, Josh, and Al will combine for 50-60 points, Teague’s statistical value will be more in assists, steals, and free throw attempts, Zaza will put up numbers by default simply because the Hawks won’t bring in anyone better to replace him, Josh and Al will shine offensively in the new system, Marvin will continue to defer and not excel at any particular aspect of the game, Jamal will remain effective but will get less shots and more assists, and there won’t be enough backcourt minutes for either Bibby or Jordan to make a huge impact barring injury.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
1:09 pm
Oh yeah, FG%s: Joe 46, Smoove 51, Horford 54, Teague 42, Jamal 45, Marvin 45, Bibby 39, Zaza 49, Jordan 41.
Those may not seem significantly higher than last year, but my guess is that the top 6 scorers all average more free throw attempts, which will be responsible for the bulk of the major offensive improvement.
northcyde
July 20th, 2010
1:22 pm
vava74
July 20th, 2010
5:17 am
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/nba-blockbusters-can-still-bomb-071910
Just read it.
************************
Vava . . . the article is BS, for the most part.
How was Shaq a “flop” in Cleveland, when Cleveland had a 40 – 13 record when he played in the regular season, and Shaq scored 12 pts and 7 rebs in just 23 minutes? Shaq did exactly what he was supposed to do in Cleveland.
Rasheed Wallace did exactly what he was supposed to do in Boston, by being a tough post defender that could score on occasion. It was his addition that was key in helping to defend Dwight Howard in the Eastern Conference Finals. Rosen focuses on Rasheed’s reluctance to go down low to score . ., but hell . . that’s ALWAYS been a knock on Rasheed. His worth to the Celtics was on DEFENSE.
Andre Miller was a godsend for Portland that finally gave them some stability at the PG position. The problems he and Roy had were at the beginning of the season. By mid-season, it was a non-issue. Portland was one of the hottest teams in the league after the All-Star break. And the stability Miller brought to that team was a big reason why. If Brandon Roy doesn’t go down right before the playoffs, it’s maybe Portland that makes the big run in the West playoffs, instead of Phoenix.
While Vince didn’t get Orlando over the top, he was STILL an upgrade over the REAL choke artrist ( Hedo Turkolgu ), who has always been vastly overrated, which is why Toronto couldn’t wait to get that guy out of there.
Ben Gordon definitely didn’t pan out in Detroit. Injuries decimated the Pistons, which should’ve given Ben a better chance to really step up the scoring. But it never materialized and even he broke down during the season.
Shawn Marion has definitely lost a step. He’s not the super athletic freak that he used to be. But he’s still one of the best defensive SFs in the game.
Brand and Davis should’ve been re-signed by their original teams ( LA Clippers and Golden St ). But both organizations played around with them, and both left. Baron actually thought that he’d be playing WITH Brand in LA, otherwise he would’ve never left Golden St. Brand’s body is definitely breaking down, although he was able to play most of the season last year.
Davis hasn’t panned out with the Clippers, partially because everybody around him keeps getting hurt. Let’s see what they do if they can have their main guys relatively healthy for an entire year. But Davis as a PG hasn’t fallen off much, if any.
And Rosen would’ve ripped Artest as well, had the Lakers not made the NBA Finals and if Artest not come up big time in Game 7. Because the reality is that Artest was pretty much horrible the entire season offensively, while great defensively. I guess he forgot that the Lakers won 8 less games last year, than they did in 2008 – 09, and Artest had a sub par year.
But Artest gets praise, while the other free agents get ripped?
Vava . . . don’t believe everything you read from these clowns.
doc
July 20th, 2010
1:26 pm
northcyde, some pretty interesting stuff on the make up of teams and how top ten fits into championships. it would be fun to go back and look at past champions to see what the correlation is. as far as the coming season with three number ones playing together the question will be how do they finish as a collective and whether it translates into a champion not where they started. seems like three number one’s counters anything else but it is as individuals with minimal support around them. anyway i am going to assume those guys are really going to feel the pressure when the playoffs come much like the big three did in boston and maybe have to overcome it before we crown them. on the other hand they might not ever lose.
96-0 is their appropriate goal, eh?
anyway northcyde very poignant and thought provoking work there. thanks
doc
July 20th, 2010
1:30 pm
@ northcyde, concur with latest posting. thought it was a poor article with little substance but much overstated opinion. brand was a flop but achilles injuries never really heal. vince has never convinced me so i thought little of that except they got what they knew they were getting. why is that an upset?
O'Brien
July 20th, 2010
1:34 pm
Joe: 22 ppg
Josh: 17 ppg
Al: 17 ppg
Jamal: 14 ppg
Marvin: 12 ppg
Teague: 10 ppg
Zaza: 6 ppg
Bibby: 5 ppg
Jordan: 2 ppg
That’s 105 points. I’ll have to really think about FG%.
My issue with Marvin is he has been the starter for the last 4 years, and the only thing he EXCELS at is being a team player. I remember that one game against the Spurs at Philips, where Marvin almost single-handedly kept us in the game in the first half. But then he disappeared for the next 3 games.
One really good game in the NW, then disappear for the next 5 games. I need more consistency, more fire and more aggressiveness.
Since he played well for UNC as a sixth man, I’m surprised the Hawks haven’t looked into bringing him off the bench, where he can get more shots, go up against bench players, and hopefully get more confidence.
Doc,
The goal is to go 98-0.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
1:38 pm
“One thing that fans are guilty of (including me) is we base our opinions off what we see (or think we see). But sometimes, what we see is not what the numbers say it is.”
Numbers don’t tell the whole story either. By the numbers, the Hawks were the second best offensive team in the league last year. Watching them against the league’s elite defensive teams shows pretty clearly that this is not the case. The Hawks put up big numbers against poor defensive teams because the players on this team are individually very talented, but when they went up against teams that played good team defense and contested every jumper, the Hawks struggled. Numbers are not the end all be all — as we’ve seen with the ongoing debate between Truth-Serum and other people on this blog regarding Horford, you can usually find some set of numbers somewhere to support your argument. Trusting your eyes over the numbers is nothing to feel guilty about. In fact I’d say that as long as you are not biased, your eyes will tell you a lot more than numbers ever will.
northcyde
July 20th, 2010
1:39 pm
Najeh accepts the challenge. At 108 ppg, the Hawks would be 3rd in scoring, behind Phoenix ( 110 ppg ) and Golden St ( 108.8 ppg ). And he expects the games of JJ and Al to flourish in the offense.
OK . . anybody else?
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
1:42 pm
Charley Rosen, right before the 2003 draft, said LeBron James would be no more than an average NBA player.
Just saying.
northcyde
July 20th, 2010
1:42 pm
O’Brien agrees with Najeh somewhat, in that it’s gonna be Horford that benefits from the new offense, with Teague scoring in double figures. So O’Brien. . by those numbers, you pretty much expect the Hawks to still be heavily dependent on the starters, with our bench still basically being Jamal.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
1:46 pm
“At 108 ppg, the Hawks would be 3rd in scoring, behind Phoenix ( 110 ppg ) and Golden St ( 108.8 ppg ). And he expects the games of JJ and Al to flourish in the offense.”
Not coincidentally, Phoenix and Golden State were top 5 in pace factor last year while the Hawks were 4th from the bottom. The Hawks were also 8th from the bottom in free throw attempts per possession. I expect them to become top 10 in both categories.
doc
July 20th, 2010
1:55 pm
o’b yup u r right: 82 and 16. a bit going on here.
terrell
July 20th, 2010
1:58 pm
Steve W, Barnes is due to make 1.6 mill next year. Your’re off by 18.4 mill.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
2:12 pm
“you pretty much expect the Hawks to still be heavily dependent on the starters, with our bench still basically being Jamal.”
A reasonable expectation, considering that the only major addition to the bench duplicates Jamal’s role.
Presumably, though, Teague will be getting the starters’ minutes he deserves, which will push Bibby to the bench role to which he’s best suited and consequently improve the bench at the guard positions. Of course, unless the DASG pulls their heads out of their azzes and gets the Shaq deal done, Josh and Al will continue to be overworked and beaten down over the course of the season. If one of them gets injured and Zaza has to pick up the slack, the Hawks are screwed.
drmaryb
July 20th, 2010
2:17 pm
Rod – College Park
Re: 1242 PM: I guess I heard that!
Extremely well written and communicated point of view. Intellectually Stimulating.
bigdave
July 20th, 2010
2:24 pm
for anyone who has it.. or likes their sources; this is what the ESPN insider headlines today:
Atlanta lone suitor for Shaq?
It’s looking that way.
bigdave
July 20th, 2010
2:33 pm
The Mavericks have abandoned the idea of a Shaq signing completely — “He is out,” according to one team source — since they have four centers currently on the roster until they can move the very available Alexis Ajinca. Atlanta, then, stands as the only team with a confirmed “live” interest in O’Neal. But Shaq, at last report, still wants assurances of a healthy slice of playing time as well as a salary that starts above the $5.8 million mid-level exception, which can be achieved through a sign-and-trade with Cleveland. No team out there, including Atlanta, is known to be willing to pay Shaq more than $2 million for next season.
bigdave
July 20th, 2010
2:34 pm
IMO.. Shaq hangs it up before he plays for pennies..
Westurd
July 20th, 2010
2:35 pm
Has anyone done the numbers to see if we can trade ASG for the owner of the Chick-Fil-A in Colony Square? I have more faith in him than the ASG
bigdave
July 20th, 2010
2:40 pm
but wouldnt it be something if we get him, by default, at our price..
Najeh Davenpoop
July 20th, 2010
2:41 pm
“Has anyone done the numbers to see if we can trade ASG for the owner of the Chick-Fil-A in Colony Square? I have more faith in him than the ASG”
The only problem is that the Hawks would have to forfeit every Sunday game.
SteveW
July 20th, 2010
2:49 pm
I think Marvin’s game was highly affected by his back injury in the 08-09 season, it was tender for most of last off season, so his game declined. He also took it a little easier last year, not to re-aggrevate it. If he has done his work this off season, he will be fine and surprise us. If the back is still tender, maybe we should let the Cavs have him – he can be another UNC player who as a Cav who had to retire because of his back (speaking of one of my all time favs, Brad Daugherty).
Rod from College Park
July 20th, 2010
2:51 pm
Preciate it drmaryb.
SteveW
July 20th, 2010
2:55 pm
Scoring if everybody is healthy guess: JJ – 20
Josh 16
Al 16
Jamal 16
Marvin 12
Teague 7
Bibby 6
Evans 5
ZaZa 4
Jordan – 2
104 sounds about right to me.
drmaryb
July 20th, 2010
2:57 pm
Shaq’in UP!
It wasn’t too long ago that Shaq said, ” …. tell me how my azz taste?”
He may be saying that again, but this time to the NBA.
Shaq has severly over-stated his value in the biggest FA pool that I have ever witnessed.
His EGO may say that 2M is an insult to his legacy and may walk away – it remains to be seen.
He reminds of AI more so than Brett Farve, as it relates to knowing when to EXIT left.
If he brings his AI – attitude here, even for 2M it won’t be worth it.
Playingtime and Salary are not small issues to have – Not Now & Not this market.
drmaryb
July 20th, 2010
3:12 pm
Ken Sigura
Sir, I guess you are on vacation as well?
Well, it’s time to feed the fishes and a few piranhas that swim these murky blog waters.
This Getaway Day blog is all but – Gone!
Man up & throw us a new bone! Roo .. Roo!
(*_*)
O'Brien
July 20th, 2010
3:27 pm
I think shaq will pull a Roger Clemens and wait until mid-season to sign with a contender (if he doesn’t get the money he wants).
Northcyde,
One area of overall improvement for the hawks will be defense. Less switching, less bibby, more teague and a defensive coach in Connor.
It will be interesting to see the hawks points against average from last year and compare it to this season, since we have basically the same team.
Dr. Callemout
July 20th, 2010
3:52 pm
*I wonder who fried chicken is hiding behind*
*Probably T.S. aka The Sophomoric Fatherless Child*
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
3:56 pm
Ken Sigura is also a Con and has no talent Another one of MC’s disciples.
CHILD PLEASE!
doc
July 20th, 2010
4:37 pm
o’b i was thinking the exact thing this am as i heard the talk show guys talking about him. someone is going to want shaq at his price more than likely. he can wait, stay in shape and save his body then pick and choose the way davis did a few years ago.
jroc
July 20th, 2010
4:47 pm
Wherever shaq signs his role will be very limited
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
5:20 pm
DrCalled-out/saltee, get a life!
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
5:24 pm
what your name isnt any good so you must use mine @
July 20th, 2010
3:56 pm
?
this is about the hawks not truth serum. You really should get some help. really
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
5:25 pm
Doc Shaq is too good not to play some where.
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
5:33 pm
what your name isnt any good so you must use mine @
July 20th, 2010
3:56 pm
?
this is about the hawks not truth serum. You really should get some help.
You are obsessed with a fictional blog character, please, get some help before you are completely gone. There is still hope that your life can have value. Truth-Serum is only a fictional blog character. You can create your own. But first, seriously, get some help.
Truth-Serum
July 20th, 2010
5:34 pm
Truth-Serum
*DrCalled-out/saltee, get a life!