Atlanta Hawks: Shaq and their summer struggles
Las Vegas–First the Shaq scuttlebutt, then the game. . .
The Marvin for Shaq sign-and-trade appears to be a non-starter. The Hawks have consistently said they like their core, and that includes Marvin. So they are not looking to move Marvin for Shaq when he’s playing under what they consider to be a reasonable contract for a starting 3 whom they still believe can blossom under L.D.
Shaq is pushing for the sign-and-trade because he wants to be paid above the mid-level exception–a person familiar with his thinking said Shaq wants something like $16 million for two years after seeing other free agent centers sign lucrative deals. Shaq also wants to start but it doesn’t look like he will get that or the money from Atlanta. In fact, after post-J.J. indications that the Hawks were willing to push their payroll above the luxury-tax threshold of $70.3 million, it’s becoming increasingly clear ASG wants to avoid paying the tax.
With their payroll at roughly $65 million, the Hawks aren’t likely to use the full mid-level exception of $5.8 million to add the minimum of three players they need to get to 13. So the challenge for GM Rick Sund is to add veteran impact players to the roster under those financial constraints. That means Brad Miller likely is out of Atlanta’s price range and they’ll have to wait and see which veteran centers are still around when the dust settles.
Unless Sund can somehow find an impact player at a bargain, Atlanta’s rotation in 2010-11 figures to look a lot like 2009-10. If that’s the case, Atlanta’s belief in its core group figures to be tested.
Spurs 89, Hawks 84
– This wasn’t a good effort for the Hawks. They got off to a slow start again and Lester Conner said he might change the lineup against Milwaukee tomorrow. Turnovers were the problem this time: seven in the first quarter, 15 at the half and 22 for the game. San Antonio recorded 17 steals, which is crazy even for Summer League.
– A rough outing for Teague, who had nine turnovers and once again rushed things at winning time. He just didn’t look all that into it at times, particularly when D-Leaguer Carldell “Squeaky” Johnson picked his pocket for a layup and blew by him for an assist on consecutive plays. “He didn’t take care of the ball and he didn’t run the team the way we’d like,” Conner said.
– It’s one thing for raw rookie Pape Sy to be bothered by ball pressure, another for Teague to look unnerved by it. “Just one of those games,” Teague said. “I think I am just going to start passing the ball up to the wings instead of bringing it up. It takes too long into the shot clock for to get the offense going . That’s how it’s going to be when I play with Joe and those guys, anyway.”
– In defense of Teague and the Hawks, they haven’t had much time to build any kind of cohesion. Conner said L.D.’s offense “might be too sophisticated for this group” because they keep abandoning the calls and freelancing. Then again, this wasn’t an opponent sending out NBAers like the Grizz did Monday. The Spurs sent out D-League free agents and led 52-36 at the half.
– The Hawks rallied again after halftime. They cut down on the turnovers and Teague, JC2 and Trey Gilder got going on offense. But the game got away from the Hawks when Teague jacked up a bricked 3-pointer, the Hawks fell asleep on D and allowed a James Gist dunk and then the Spurs got an offensive rebound on a missed free throw.
– It was another overall positive effort for Crawford., who scored 20 points while shooting 6 of 11. He didn’t draw many fouls at Xavier but earned seven free-throw attempts against San Antonio. Crawford spent some time at point guard and again showed good vision but also had a couple turnovers while forcing cross-court passes into traffic.
– Crawford’s talent is obvious. The Hawks just have to harness it. “He can score the basketball but he doesn’t know about shot selection yet,” Conner said. “That’s expected. We put him at point guard and they got into him.”
– Gilder looked pretty good on the wing. He’s got a slight build but he’s long, quick and smooth.
– The Hawks like Richard Hendrix’s physical game. He was strong on the block and also showed some pretty good footwork.
– After doing little against Memphis, RandMo came back with a strong effort.
– Sy was scratched with a sore right Achilles’. He said he injured it during the game Monday and most likely would sit out tomorrow vs. Milwaukee. James Augustine left the game due to a sprained ankle.
– I’m out, blog people.
MC
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334 comments Add your comment
northcyde
July 15th, 2010
4:13 am
@ Truth-Serum . . . . that stat about Horford and the 60% iFG he gives up, is on 82games.com
Click on the Hawks, then on Horford’s name, and click on “By Position”. You’ll see Horford’s stats and the stats of the opposing center he goes up against. Matter of fact, just click here to see it.
Like I said. . . the 60% iFG he gives up is pretty high. But the 16.5 Defensive PER he has at center, makes him one of the better overall defending centers in the NBA. So there’s 2 sides to his defense.
drmaryb
July 15th, 2010
4:31 am
Missing Parts!
Classic Hawks – Cosign That, Sir!
John Shurholtz. Said it best, some 10 years ago:
“A successful stock broker – NEVER falls in love with his stocks.”
Everything is trade-able! WIN NOW mentality WINS NOW! You may NEVER see the play-offs again!
Especially, if you’re the Hawks! Forget about potential – unless, you’re in the business to draw paychecks!
We fans are trying to draw Championships and collect banners for the rafters!
Look at Jerry Buss over there! They Just WON it all & the 1st thing he did was start re-tooling!
Even Fisher was trade-able!
A famous HOF College Coach said it best:
“If it ain’t broke? Then break it – So you can FIX it!”
-arthur unknown”
I used that philosophy to become a Doctor. Even when you are WINNING? You can always WIN better!
MsDee
July 15th, 2010
5:11 am
northcyde,
Have a little faith in Teague..my God, its SUMMER LEAGUE..his 1st to be EXACT!!!!! Its not like he is OJ Mayo who had 7 or 8 TO’s the other night. Give the PG a break!!!
MsDee
July 15th, 2010
5:13 am
northcyde,
Oh and by-the-way, just like your example you told when u were in school, this could be Teague’s experience he could tell some rookie when he is in his 5th year in the pro’s. Allow him to make his mistakes RIGHT HERE IN THE SUMMER LEAGUE!!
MsDee
July 15th, 2010
5:18 am
And just like I said earlier in this blog, TEAGUE HAS YET TO PLAY OR PRACTICE WITH THE STARTERS!! He has been playing with the bench and now the scubbs since he has been in the league. He might just look like our lil Chris Paul once he starts working out with the REAL DEALS of our team!!
Steve
July 15th, 2010
5:56 am
Well thanks for lying to us ASG to get us off your asses about the Joe signing that nobody wanted.
Marcus
July 15th, 2010
6:31 am
The one positive I glean from the blog is that Teague ran this offense in practice last year. That said, he shouldn’t be shaken by D-leaguers, and most certainly shouldn’t be “scurred” to bring the ball up as the potential starting PG. He also has to learn to make the other players play the offense as PG. If Teague allows these cats (who are barely fringe NBA players) abandon the calls when he runs the point …. what are JJ, Smoove, Horford, and Marvin gonna do?
Big Ray
July 15th, 2010
6:55 am
It’s easy to answer why Sund has a job. Because he does precisely what the ASG wants him to do. He’s a company man. It’s really that simple, and though the job of GM is one of responsibility, a GM can only have as much responsibility as his owners allow him. The trail doesn’t end with Sund, it ends with the ASG. They hired him, and they dictate to him what they want done.
Their fingerprints are all over this.
So, we will field the same team we did last year. Brilliant. What a bunch of ass bags…
OK
July 15th, 2010
7:00 am
“That’s expected. We put him at point guard and they got into him.”
-Nonsense. The kid looked good at the point. Why must they hate? Other than that ereant crass court pass, I thinke we’ve got our backup point.
“Gilder looked pretty good on the wing. He’s got a slight build but he’s long, quick and smooth.”
-The Kid looks better than Mo and Marvin RIGHT NOW. We will sign him. He also can handle the ball, draw fouls, hit open jumpshots, and was money from the FT line. Love his defense and footwork too. I think we found a gem. Augistine and Hendrix were the only Bigs worth mentioning.
“I think I am just going to start passing the ball up to the wings instead of bringing it up. It takes too long into the shot clock for to get the offense going . That’s how it’s going to be when I play with Joe and those guys, anyway.”
PLEASE NO! Quit being lazy and learn how to bring the ball up vs. pressure Teague! Nash does it, Billups does ut YOU CAN DO IT! We don’t need another Mike Bibby who can’t handle token pressure. I understand doing it vs. the press but the majority of the time, THATS YOUR JOB. JJ hogging the ball was the problem last season. WHY SHOULD HE HAVE TO BRING IT UP AND SCORE AS WELL? CAN THE BROTHA GET A BREAK?
Big Ray
July 15th, 2010
7:01 am
Northcyde ,
Two things:
1. I discussed this on my fan blog with a couple of people: Jordan Crawford’s game looks a bit more smooth than Teague’s right now. He’s not a natural point, but he’s a possible sleeper.
You’re right, what Teague had to say is definitely a red flag issue. We’ll see how the rest of SL goes and what happens in training camp and what not. Either he takes things in stride, or he will get himself benched, one or the other. The turnovers actually don’t bother me. Turnovers are often a product of who you’re playing with (scrubs) and what the system is (a bunch of guys who haven’t played together, trying to execute a sophisticated offense after three days of practice), along with individual mistakes.
2. Exactly, the ASG simply “gives up.” This is the organization you constantly lambast fans for not blindly supporting. I’m just sayin’….
Big Ray
July 15th, 2010
7:03 am
OK
I agree. Crawford has skills, and I want to see how he does once he gets into the mix with the veteran players. Meanwhile, Teague better get it together. Of course, we’ll get to see how he does with the vets as well, but he can’t come up against them (or with them) with this attitude, and with this play. Ain’t gonna cut it.
OK
July 15th, 2010
7:05 am
Sign Gilder & Hendrix, Use the Trade Exception to trade for Ryan Hollins. If you still need another Big, sigen James Augistine, I like his Hustle. smh, I don’t know why I even bother. Stupid ASG, they don’t care.
Stotts Era
July 15th, 2010
7:07 am
RandMo with a strong effort? 3 fouls and 4 TOs, only 2 boards. Also a hawks worst -14
OK
July 15th, 2010
7:08 am
Ray, Amen! He didn’t have this attitude last year around this time. Man, Mike woodson works wonders doesn’t he? It’s amazing how he just saps players’ confidence like that.
tls
July 15th, 2010
7:17 am
Wait a minute, I thought payroll was at 65 mil before we traded Chills for nothing? And if we don’t use the trade exception, it was in fact NOTHING. If in fact they aren’t going to spend more than 5 mil more, does that mean there could be a trade? It would not break my heart to see MArvin traded but not for Shaq- must be someone younger with more upside. Jamal could go to but that would require a hafty return since he is so valuable. Any thoughts, MC?
OK
July 15th, 2010
7:24 am
Payroll should be at about 60mill I beleive.
floze
July 15th, 2010
7:25 am
This blog is amazing – one game that JT craps and the ASG don’t know what they are doing. I think I watched every minute he played last season and know for a fact there is a bonified NBA player in there. Did anyone watch the last game of the regular season?
I will be looking for the haters to eat their words when JT has a break out game in Las Vegas – after all – one game indicates a career doesn’t it?
JeJe
July 15th, 2010
7:29 am
Why the hell is ASG is intent on getting Kurt Thomas? He played well against us but the dude is 50 years old and 6″9. I’d rather get a 4-time champion who is 7″1 and 50 years old instead.
Also, it IS worth overpaying for Shaq if we can RID OURSELVES OF 15M in money owed to Duck in Yrs 3 and 4.
Well looks like we will sign scrubs, win 54 games next year, lose in the 2nd round and hear about how we have improved so much
FIRE WOODY
OK
July 15th, 2010
7:30 am
floze, We’re talking about his comments after the game.
See my 7:00am post
JeJe
July 15th, 2010
7:33 am
OVERPAY FOR SHAQ, THEN DISH SMOOVE, BIBBY AND 1ST ROUNDERS FOR MELO
nes
July 15th, 2010
7:46 am
Well–as we all know with the ASG, they spent all that money on JJ and what a joke around the league on that contract. The problem with it is this: it racketed up the price for all free agents!, thus the hawks can’t get a center for their price–it is all tied up in JJ, what a big blunder! Wade, James, and Bosh took LESS MONEY to get additional players to bring a championship to Miami and JJ was all about the MONEY–not the Team. He will be a cancer come next year when JSmith due his big contract and hawks can’t pay him and the other players got to be tore up with JJ getting that kind of money. I will say it again, why didn’t the Hawks draft Whiteside at 31 and roll the dice? also, we should have brought in Casey as coach for the sake of change of atmosphere, Drew keeping all assistants is a joke too.
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
July 15th, 2010
7:48 am
ASG do something to show us you are committed to winning bigger! If they value their all-star center’s opinion they would get Shaq in here. The optimist in me says they will but on their own fiscally responsible terms. They need to channel Steinbrenner and get a couple more solid pieces asap.
O'Brien
July 15th, 2010
7:49 am
I didnt like Teague’s comments either. Hopefully Drew will continue to work on him in summer league and training camp. Because as the PG, he should not have that mentality.
As for the ASG, I’m not surprised. I’m just disappointed they fed us all those false promises about filling spots with free agents.
That being said, there is still time for Sund to make a couple moves to save the day. So I won’t give up on the off-season just yet.
jeff
July 15th, 2010
7:52 am
Ok- so we have about 3 million (give or take) to use on 3 players? It sure limits the quality players most of us want. Given the scenarios of salary, cap, availability, and the appearance of not trading any of the 9 or 10 players currently signed the options are now extremely limited. Here is the current available FA making less than $1,000,000.00 per season last year. These are UFA no trade needed
Center
Jason Collins $825,497
Rand Mo $855,189
Theo Ratliff $825,497
Chris Hunter $632,455
Anthony Tolliver $427,317
Brian Skinner $825,497
DJ Mbenga $959,111
Joel Anthony $825,497
Jamaal Magloire $825,497
Primoz Brezec $825,497
Nathan Jawal $736,420
Earl Barron $48,559
Adonle Foyle $825,497
Patrick O’Bryant $855,189
Kyrylo Fesenko $870,000
Fabricio Oberto $1,990,000
James Sing1eon $ 1,030,189
Malik Allen $ 1,300,000
Power Forward
Joe Smith $825,497
Josh Powell $959,111
Shavlik Randolph $309,167
Ike Diogu $825,497
Sean Marks $825,497
Jarron Collins $825,497
Louis Amundson $855,189
Juwan Howard $825,497
Jon Brockman $457,588
Sean May $825,497
Devean George $1,600,000
Matt Barnes $1,600,000
Hawks Fan In New Orleans
July 15th, 2010
7:52 am
I agree nes. Drew should have shaken up the staff to make a strong statment. If the Asg was committed to title building, they say ‘damn the luxury tax’ that’s the consequence of being elite. Penny pinching ain’t getting us help against dwight howard.
mountain_jim
July 15th, 2010
8:00 am
Thanks to MC for the bad reportage, and Najah for putting the Hawks ownership under the spotlight. The exception, the sold pick, now they change their tune and we are set? Sell the team and go away, owners, we see through your bs and this team is not built for beating Orlando and you either don’t or can’t afford to care.
Time for an ajc interview with ownership with the tough questions of why their tune has changed from earlier this offseason to now.
jeff
July 15th, 2010
8:00 am
Shooting Guard
Mario West $451,596
Michael Finley $194,235
Stephen Graham $825,497
Larry Hughes $160,244
Devin Brown $1,159,693
Luther Head $825,497
Jerry Stackhouse $422,640
Aleksander Pavlovic $1,500,000
Ime Udoka $786,650
Keith Bogans $825,497
Antoine Wright $1,800,000
Point Guard
Anthony Carter $825,497
Chucky Atkins $825,497
Will Bynum $825,497
Bobby Brown $736,420
Jamaal Tinsley $738,091
Marcus Williams $825,497
Rafer Alston $475,875
Carlos Arroyo $825,497
Royal Ivey $1,500,000
Kevin Ollie $825,497
Mustafa Shakur $645,830
Travis Diener $208,802
Patrick Mills $457,588
Allen Iverson $645,830
Jason Williams $825,497
Earl Boykins $752,659
Javaris Crittenton $1,477,920
Cedric Jackson $26,917
dap01
July 15th, 2010
8:01 am
Bibby stinks as a PG in the NBA. He is spent. ASG is the worst owners in professional sports. We have been lied to this offseason.
We have accomplished giving JJ money and that is it. We are stuck being average until they decide to blow it up again and start over.
When they start over they will probably make the same bone headed picks and choices that they did during this 7 years of torture!
doc
July 15th, 2010
8:11 am
northcyde/ray
even before miami played its final trump card and won the big three i said the true colors of the asg would become apparent if the queen went south beach as would their true motivation going forward. for all the talk of wanting winners and wanting to make this team better they would fold like a cardboard shipping box. these guys are so predictable. they dont deserve a top ten fan base wanting to spend bottom third in dollars. if you dont spend over tax you dont stay up there long. watch us fall. even small town utah understands this and is aggressive at getting in quality to fill holes.
northcyde, i hope you dont mind if i keep my money in my pocket like the asg do so well and mock me because i am smart enough to see the tean i want to win isnt really committed to it. i can watch nba at home but i am a fan of the hawks so i dont want to sit and watch them have no chance. they have done nothing to get me to fork out 4 to 5 grand, nothing.i imagine there might be more out there feeling the same way.
floze, go back and look at sheldon williams and salim stoudemire stats for season ending games. they too have at least one great game when it didnt count in the dreg days of end of season basketball. unfortunately he didnt show that brilliance during real competitive games when it meant something. what i have seen of him continues to make me think the guy may be out of his league. from what i read he may feel the same way.
Tree Rollins
July 15th, 2010
8:19 am
And I thought McDavid would have been a disaster as an owner…I am sorry McDavid, I was wrong!
doc
July 15th, 2010
8:22 am
mountain_jim, what happened in south beach changed their minds quickly is my guess.
doc
July 15th, 2010
8:28 am
thanks for the shopping list jeff. now i am even more despondent.
oh, clyde will be quick to tell you you left sean williams off you center list.
LKT
July 15th, 2010
8:34 am
How about this: Trade Marvin to Cleveland for Shaq and then use the MLE to pick up Matt Barnes. Barnes is in his prime (30 or 31), plays good perimeter D, knows Orlando’s offensive/defensive scheme, and can probably be had for a two year deal with an option for a 3rd. Allow Shaq to start games but give Al the bulk of the minutes (much like the Bibby/Crawford situation last year).
LKT
July 15th, 2010
8:39 am
How about this: Trade Marvin to Cleveland for Shaq and then use the MLE or Childress TE to pick up Matt Barnes. Barnes is in his prime (30 or 31), plays good perimeter D, knows Orlando’s offensive/defensive scheme, and can probably be had for a two year deal with an option for a 3rd. Allow Shaq to start games but give Al the bulk of the minutes (much like the Bibby/Crawford situation last year).
jeff
July 15th, 2010
8:43 am
Thanks- I would have put Williams on there if he were a UFA. In fact he isn’t even a FA. A trade would have to be involved.
Balderdash
July 15th, 2010
8:49 am
Well, there’s a ton of 7-foot stiffs who can’t score four points a game, so sign one of them up. Zaza needs to play like he did two seasons ago. He can do that … can’t he?
cdog
July 15th, 2010
8:57 am
truth serum, its a shame only you and i can see the hawks number 1 problem is rick sund.talking about an incompetent person, thats sund.he will eventually kill the hawks team before its over.its a shame at one point were just a big man away from becoming a championship team then they hired a terrible GM in rick sund.check his track record, the hawks were a center away from becoming a possible finals team.to this day, sund has not went out and found that piece.its been there all the while but his concern with money caused him not to get that needed piece.as of right now, the hawks are in the same boat with sund still the GM.does it take a rocket scientist to see sund need to go? no.he must be putting hypnotic spells on everyone.they have blamed mike woodson, joe johnson, josh smith but only you and i can see the real problem is sund.oh well, when the team is made into the la clippers, sacremento kings and the washington wizards, then everyone eyes will be opened.yes ASG is the owners, but sund is making the total personel decisions.its amazing how everyone saw mike woodson’s fault but sund’s fault are right there staring them in the face and no one can see them
Samuel
July 15th, 2010
8:59 am
Darn,
I missed the game last night. ken, can I get your analysis please?
The Hawks have consistently said they like their core, and that includes Marvin. And we’re trying to move to “THE NEXT LEVEL”. Please. Maybe they meant the next level downwards.
– In defense of Teague and the Hawks, they haven’t had much time to build any kind of cohesion. Conner said L.D.’s offense “might be too sophisticated for this group” because they keep abandoning the calls and freelancing. Welcome to the NBA. How long you think that “SOPHISTICATED OFFENSE” will last when our “MAX PLAYA” get back in town?
I actually gave us a year or two to get to that “NEXT LEVEL”. Now it appears we may be headed for the LOTTO sooner than expected. “Marvin Williams is our core”. get me outta here.
newkid
July 15th, 2010
8:59 am
Insightful as always doc. The Boston model just went on steriods with Riley’s assemblage in Miami, and the ASG and Sund would be fools to not realize that the chance to ‘win now’ ended this past May.
But there’s a slight chance, and only slight, that some within the front office get it. What am I saying? Am I nuts? Look, if there’s going to be a chance to compete in the East over the next 6-8 years, there’s gotta be a plan that’s far better than that so far hatched by Knight/Sund and company. If our side is really going to compete, it won’t be sufficient to tinker this summer and next. There’s gotta be a plan that gets us to a roster that can really compete with that which Riley is constructing. Once designed, such a plan has to be sold to and bought by the 8-headed monster ASG; and only then can execution begin. Maybe we’re seeing the early phases of a 2-year execution of a real plan. Remember how long it took Miami to execute it’s plan? How about the time it took the Knicks – and others – to prepare for ‘10? With so many moving pieces (e.g., soon-to-come new CBA, uncertainty regarding whether those pieces we wish to attract – to compete with the Heat – will even consider coming on board, how to best create the salary space to afford those pieces, etc) I can imagine many sleepless nights now and over the next couple years for Sund.
If in fact there is this plan development and execution going on in the front office, we should not expect anything dramatic this summer. Instead we should prepare ourselves for continued playoff mediocrity for the next couple years. Gotta go; more to say about this later.
Samuel
July 15th, 2010
9:08 am
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2010/07/15/gametime_shaq_atl.nba/
cdog
July 15th, 2010
9:11 am
basketball has become an aggressive sport.when you start trying to outsmart people with fancy offenses younlose more than you win.a message to coach drew.defense wins championships, offenses wins popularity.
Joey
July 15th, 2010
9:12 am
Wouldn’t it be nice if Max Joe take a $18M cut in order for Sung to get Shaq? I mean, he would still be getting $101M . . .
Joey
July 15th, 2010
9:15 am
Even with no moves, the Hawks are still the 3rd best team in the East. Yeah, Miami got a lot better, but Cleveland got a lost worse. We could be Knicks fans, you know.
darrell starks
July 15th, 2010
9:19 am
It’s obvious the hawks owner ship is not trying 2 build a championship team they only want 2 look ok during the regular season and not advance further into playoffs, there for all the hawks fanatic fan’s on here our voice of a opinion is just a waste of time.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!
darrell starks
July 15th, 2010
9:20 am
SELL THE TEAM ASG.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
July 15th, 2010
9:24 am
JOE with no moves trust me the hawks will fall back.
HEAT, MAGIC, CELTICS, BULLS, SIXERS, BUCKS, HAWKS, BOBCATS
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
ASHCAN.
July 15th, 2010
9:34 am
@Maxhawk,its joe johnson’s fault hoging up all the $$$$.Joe and the hawks ownership have something in common.
darrell starks
July 15th, 2010
9:34 am
TRUTH SERUM watch out for sixers this year.
JRUE HOLIDAY, EVAN TURNER, IGG, ELTON BRAND, SPEIGHTS.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
doc
July 15th, 2010
9:35 am
jeff i didnt even look. assumed it so as he has been down to d league and all. man somebody is holding some bad goods.
drmaryb
July 15th, 2010
9:40 am
Jeff
Bless your heart!
We’re shopping at The Dollar General Store and you’re so committed, that, you’re helping
The ASG sift through the bargain bin.
That Jeff is, well – Rich!
Seriously, that was a great and I’m sure very depressing job – compiling the scrubs list for us to ponder.
Well, I’m done pondering. Sorry, but thanks.